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Speaker 2: All right, well, code hoops tonight, you're at the volume
Speaker 2: heavy Friday, Every buddy, oh ball. If you guys are
Speaker 2: having a great start to your weekend, well, we got
Speaker 2: a little bit of a dud tonight. As a tale
Speaker 2: of two very different New York Knicks, teams and a
Speaker 2: tale of two very different Boston Celtics teams from Game
Speaker 2: five to Game six, and the Knicks are gonna blow
Speaker 2: them out. We're actually starting a little bit early here.
Speaker 2: There's still four minutes left over there at MSG. But
Speaker 2: tonight we're gonna break down very briefly the dynamic that
Speaker 2: took place in this game, but I want to focus
Speaker 2: a little bit looking forward towards the Pacers matchup for
Speaker 2: the Knicks. We won't have our series preview until probably
Speaker 2: Sunday morning. I'm gonna be working on that tomorrow, but
Speaker 2: we'll talk a little bit about my initial impressions going
Speaker 2: into that series. Then after that, we'll talk about the
Speaker 2: Celtics and what they're looking at heading into this offseason. Jackson,
Speaker 2: who produces this show, is a Celtics fan, and he
Speaker 2: has put some thought into some specific targets for the
Speaker 2: Celtics this summer, and I have not seen the list yet,
Speaker 2: so we're gonna work through that together and just kind
Speaker 2: of have some fun, just kind of game planning a
Speaker 2: potential Celtics offseason. Then at the tail end of the show,
Speaker 2: we'll take five ten minutes of mailbag questions from the
Speaker 2: chat so make sure you guys get your questions into
Speaker 2: the chat. When we finish here on YouTube, we're gonna
Speaker 2: migrate over to playback again. That's playback dot tv slash
Speaker 2: Hoops Tonight. We take callers there every night. It is
Speaker 2: so much fun. We've been really enjoying building out that
Speaker 2: part of the show because it's just informal and we
Speaker 2: talk shit, we have fun, we watch film. It's just
Speaker 2: a bunch of basketball fans hanging out and having a
Speaker 2: good time. So meet us over at playback dot tv
Speaker 2: slash Hoops Tonight. When we finish up here on YouTube,
Speaker 2: you guys are the jop before we get started. Subscribe
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Speaker 2: So also super helpful if we leave a rating in
Speaker 2: a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on
Speaker 2: our social media feeds Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Make sure you
Speaker 2: guys follow us there, and then, like I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 2: keep dropping mail back questions into the chat so that
Speaker 2: we can get to them at the tail end of
Speaker 2: the show and then again when we finish here playback
Speaker 2: dot TV slash Oops tonight. All right, let's talk some basketball.
Speaker 2: So I thought the abundantly clear thing that happened right
Speaker 2: out the gates in this game just a level of
Speaker 2: defensive intensity from the Knicks. We have another gentleman named
Speaker 2: Shane who's been working with us on the show over
Speaker 2: the course of this offseason, big Knicks fan, and he
Speaker 2: was talking before we got on the stream about how
Speaker 2: it's just you'd never know what you're gonna get with
Speaker 2: the Knicks. And it's funny because another former person who's
Speaker 2: worked on this show, Josh Rodriguez, a big Knicks fan himself.
Speaker 2: He messaged me we were talking about it on Twitter
Speaker 2: actually after the after they got rid of the Pistons,
Speaker 2: and he was just talking about how Knicks fans have
Speaker 2: just been like kind of sick of this team for
Speaker 2: that type of inconsistent personality that they have, and it's
Speaker 2: just very simple like watching Game five and there's very
Speaker 2: little in the way of intense physical pressure on the perimeter.
Speaker 2: There's a whole lot of just like not paying attention
Speaker 2: or communicating in transition as they repeatedly left Derek White
Speaker 2: wide open over and over and over again. And Josh
Speaker 2: Hart is talking in the postgame presser about like this
Speaker 2: kind of multiple personality type of issue that the Knicks have,
Speaker 2: and he's just like, I don't know what causes it,
Speaker 2: but it's just kind of who they are at this point.
Speaker 2: And that is something that will have to keep an
Speaker 2: eye on when it comes to the Pacers series, because
Speaker 2: the Pacers are certainly a team that does not have
Speaker 2: multiple personalities. They play the same way all the damn time,
Speaker 2: and the second you let go of the rope, they
Speaker 2: can take control of the situation, and that's going to
Speaker 2: be a theme as we head into that series. But tonight,
Speaker 2: I thought the Knicks brought the necessary energy on the
Speaker 2: defensive end of the floor. Oh Jannonobey, I thought set
Speaker 2: the tone right from the start with his ball pressure
Speaker 2: and physicality on Jalen Brown. Jalen Man had a very
Speaker 2: rough game relative to what he looked like in Game five.
Speaker 2: He just we talked about how he didn't settle for
Speaker 2: a single pull up jump shot in Game five until
Speaker 2: halfway through the second quarter. He was taking some really tough,
Speaker 2: contested ones early and often in this game, there was
Speaker 2: a way less of an intentional effort to attack Jalen Brunson,
Speaker 2: although there to Jalen Brunson's credit, they started to go
Speaker 2: at him a lot in the early third quarter stretch
Speaker 2: and he just did a great job. He just held
Speaker 2: his ground and battled. And as we zoom out from
Speaker 2: the series, I thought Brunson in particular was pretty great
Speaker 2: defensively outside of Game five, and there were a lot
Speaker 2: of opportunities for Boston to try to attack Brunson, especially
Speaker 2: in Game one in Game two, and he just held
Speaker 2: up really well. But Og got right up in Jalen
Speaker 2: Brown's grill right away and made him uncomfortable. The Celtics
Speaker 2: did get some easy ones in the first half that
Speaker 2: didn't go in, and if the few easy ones you
Speaker 2: get don't go in, and there's a lot of pressure
Speaker 2: and good defense on these other possessions, it's just really
Speaker 2: difficult to counter that. And then the Knicks were playing
Speaker 2: with a type of desperation. You tell the Knicks new
Speaker 2: They're like, we have to go back to the TD garden.
Speaker 2: This could get ugly for us, and so the Knicks
Speaker 2: kind of treated it like a must win, and they
Speaker 2: brought the necessary energy and they threw a hell of
Speaker 2: a punch and the Celtics just didn't really have much
Speaker 2: of a chance, not with the way that they were
Speaker 2: shooting the ball tonight. Did not score over twenty points
Speaker 2: in any quarter until the fourth quarter tonight. So impressive
Speaker 2: win for the Knicks. Now let's split this up here.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about looking forward to the Pacer
Speaker 2: matchup first, and then we'll talk about the Celtics moving
Speaker 2: forward with their future, so specifically with the Pacers matchup.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say this the same way that I've been
Speaker 2: saying it with some other series around when we've discussed
Speaker 2: the reality of going matchup to matchup, as we've now
Speaker 2: seen two of the three sixty win teams in the
Speaker 2: NBA this year lose, and as Oklahoma City is at
Speaker 2: risk of potentially losing on Sunday. Although we did get
Speaker 2: a report today that Aaron Gordon there was that weird
Speaker 2: play where Jadubb dove into his legs and I thought
Speaker 2: he was just kind of playing up the injury to
Speaker 2: try to get a flagrant foul or something like that
Speaker 2: or a review. But looks like Aaron Gordon might have
Speaker 2: some sort of hamstring issue, which is very scary for
Speaker 2: a Nuggets team that I would argue Aaron Gordon's been
Speaker 2: their second best player in this postseason run, and so
Speaker 2: that obviously is a devastating loss there. But there's a
Speaker 2: chance that we could end up losing all sixty win
Speaker 2: teams before we even get out of the second round.
Speaker 2: And part of the reason for that is because more
Speaker 2: and more, as the game has changed, there are just
Speaker 2: so many different ways to play, and so many different
Speaker 2: types of teams and so many different types of stars.
Speaker 2: Even if you just look at the remaining four stars
Speaker 2: that will be leading these groups, Let's say if Jokic
Speaker 2: advances or Shay advances, right, I've got Tyrese Haliburton, who's
Speaker 2: like some weird like Steve Nash mixed with a better
Speaker 2: athlete type of hybrid modern spread pick and roll, like
Speaker 2: keep the ball moving type of ball handler. Then I've
Speaker 2: got Jalen Brunson, who's like this small, shifty, like incredibly
Speaker 2: gifted half court surgical scorer slash shot maker. Then I
Speaker 2: go out to the West and it's like I get
Speaker 2: Anthony Edwards, who's like the modern version of Michael Jordan,
Speaker 2: just this huge apex athlete two guard that can shoot
Speaker 2: the shit out of the basketball and then out of
Speaker 2: the other series. We're either going to get like the
Speaker 2: modern day James Harden, this high volume score that is
Speaker 2: incredibly gifted at getting to the foul line, but has
Speaker 2: another layer of versatility in terms of his mid range
Speaker 2: shot making that even James Harden didn't have. Or the
Speaker 2: best player in the world, Nikola Jokic, who's like this
Speaker 2: big Doe center who inverts yours facing and makes just
Speaker 2: about every damn shot he takes and is probably the
Speaker 2: best passer in the game. And as you kind of
Speaker 2: zoom out look at that, that's just these four or
Speaker 2: five remaining teams. If I went down the list for
Speaker 2: all sixteen teams, or all twenty if you included the
Speaker 2: playing teams, there's just so many different kinds of stars
Speaker 2: and so many different kinds of role players and schemes
Speaker 2: on defense and on offense. We've seen more zone, I
Speaker 2: feel like in this postseason than in any postseason that
Speaker 2: I can remember, as so many teams have been working
Speaker 2: on mixing up coverages and different kinds of zone and
Speaker 2: entire halves where a team will Run twenty twenty five
Speaker 2: Possessions of zone like this is a modern MBA where
Speaker 2: every series is different, and arguably within the game, within
Speaker 2: the actual series themselves, every game is different, and so
Speaker 2: it is no longer about which team won more games
Speaker 2: or who had the best net rating, strictly about what
Speaker 2: do you have in your toolbox to manage the shifting
Speaker 2: flow of each series. So, for instance, the Celtics, they
Speaker 2: moved the ball, especially when they get into their matchup attacking,
Speaker 2: and you either leave an opening in your coverage or
Speaker 2: if you, like in Game five, just concede a lot
Speaker 2: of like size mismatches that they can bully right to
Speaker 2: the front of the rim, but they don't come close
Speaker 2: to the pace and ball in player movement that Indiana
Speaker 2: brings to the table, So similarly to what we saw
Speaker 2: with Minnesota, where that like legitimately took them a lot
Speaker 2: longer than you would have expected to put away a
Speaker 2: Golden State Warriors team without Steph. And I mean, obviously
Speaker 2: they won the series in five games, but within those games,
Speaker 2: it's like they lose game one, Game two they blow
Speaker 2: them out, but game three they're like trailing in the
Speaker 2: fourth quarter. Game four, it's the Warriors that think kind
Speaker 2: of lead in the mid third quarter like it took
Speaker 2: that they didn't dominate that team despite the massive talent
Speaker 2: advantage because of the fact that there was some reality
Speaker 2: to the way that Golden State just played a very
Speaker 2: different kind of basketball than the Lakers did and it
Speaker 2: just took them a while to adjust to it. And
Speaker 2: so with the Pacers, there are these obvious differences switching
Speaker 2: like you did against Boston. That's stagnated Boston, especially in
Speaker 2: Game four and especially down the stretch of Game one
Speaker 2: in Game two. No matter what you do to Indiana,
Speaker 2: they are not going to stagnate. They are going to
Speaker 2: attack with ball and player movement, and if you do
Speaker 2: everything right, then yeah, they'll go hunting a mismatch. But one,
Speaker 2: they're going to try to get something easy by getting
Speaker 2: you to make a mistake botching a switch or leaving
Speaker 2: it opening otherwise not there. And two, unlike Boston, Boston
Speaker 2: will hunt mismatches, but they can get away from it.
Speaker 2: That's been the story with Boston for years, even going
Speaker 2: back to before they won the title. They have had
Speaker 2: a tendency to have extended stretches where they play a
Speaker 2: certain way and have a great deal of success, and
Speaker 2: then they go brain dead for like twelve minutes of
Speaker 2: real time where they just take a bunch of bad
Speaker 2: shots and fail to go back to the thing that worked.
Speaker 2: Indiana's pretty relentless about hunting those mismatches. If you switch
Speaker 2: appropriately and avoid the openings that naturally occur in their offense,
Speaker 2: they will throw it to Siakam or Miles Turner against
Speaker 2: the size mismatch over and over and over again. If
Speaker 2: you end up switching, if you end up containing the ball.
Speaker 2: They have a process offensively that is relentless from the start.
Speaker 2: They pick you up full court, they try to rush
Speaker 2: you into a poor offense. They push in transition like crazy.
Speaker 2: Tyrese is one of the best kick ahead passers in
Speaker 2: the NBA. Right now, They're going to get you in
Speaker 2: the blender, and if you survive the blender, they're going
Speaker 2: to hunt a mismatch. It's just a very very different
Speaker 2: type of series than what this Celtics series is, and
Speaker 2: it's a much better version of Tyrese Haliburt. Tyres Haliburton
Speaker 2: is playing at a substantially higher level than he was
Speaker 2: playing for the Knick series last year. Is his matchup
Speaker 2: specifically with Karl Anthony Towns in space. Whether it be
Speaker 2: in pick and roll coverages like a high drop or
Speaker 2: a hedge, or it be in a switch, that's gonna
Speaker 2: be a key factor in this series. Tyrese Haliburton attacking
Speaker 2: Karl Anthony Towns in space. It's going to be a challenge.
Speaker 2: I expect to see a lot of Pascal Siakam and
Speaker 2: Miles Turner in post up mismatches against Jalen Brunson as
Speaker 2: they work through you know, maybe a Nemhard a ball
Speaker 2: screen with Nemhard or Nie Smith and they get a
Speaker 2: switch and they're just gonna throw it down there. There's
Speaker 2: a great deal of like trusting of simple closeout reads
Speaker 2: like the Celtics when they have Tatum dancing at the
Speaker 2: top of the key and two guys are digging down
Speaker 2: into the driving lanes. The Celtics are less willing to
Speaker 2: just take that like simple swing pass. The Pacers make
Speaker 2: that shit relentlessly. They make it like every time you
Speaker 2: sink off of a man for whatever reason, Tyres will
Speaker 2: hit you every single time. And so it's just gonna
Speaker 2: be a very different type of challenge, and I think
Speaker 2: that bodes well for Indiana, especially early in this series,
Speaker 2: and so with the Knicks having home court advantage, I
Speaker 2: think it's going to be really interesting to see if
Speaker 2: they can hold up in those first two games, because
Speaker 2: when you play a very different team and they roll
Speaker 2: up into your arena and they're playing great basketball and
Speaker 2: they throw you in the blender, you'd make a few
Speaker 2: too many mistakes in Game one. Suddenly, even though you
Speaker 2: can solve that problem, you end up losing home court
Speaker 2: advantage in the process. And so I think that's going
Speaker 2: to be the first thing I'm watching early in the
Speaker 2: series is just how quickly the Knicks adjusts defensively to
Speaker 2: what will be a very different challenge. Against the Celtics,
Speaker 2: it was about switching and containing and the individual defense
Speaker 2: in Game one, in Game two of Brunson on Tatum
Speaker 2: and Brown, and in Game four of Karl Anthony Towns
Speaker 2: on Jason Tatum in space. This series is going to
Speaker 2: be less of that and more of the attentiveness. We
Speaker 2: saw the job that the Knicks didn't transition defense in
Speaker 2: Game five against Boston. If they bring that type of effort,
Speaker 2: the Pacers will beat the shit out of them. And
Speaker 2: so again, like we talked earlier. This is going to
Speaker 2: be much more of a mental challenge for the Knicks
Speaker 2: than it is a physical challenge. I'm very, very excit
Speaker 2: for it. On the other end of the floor, we
Speaker 2: saw some stuff last year, right, Brunson had a great
Speaker 2: deal of success against Nemhard, not so much against Niesmith.
Speaker 2: We'll see if for Carlile ends up making that kind
Speaker 2: of move. But here's the thing. You end up putting
Speaker 2: in Nemhard on a Michale Bridges, You're now conceding a
Speaker 2: lot of size in that matchup, where McHale Bridges has
Speaker 2: been a very gifted over the top shooter in the
Speaker 2: mid range, and so it's a very different type of
Speaker 2: team for the Pacers to match up with this time around.
Speaker 2: I've already started watching film on this series. Weirdly enough,
Speaker 2: the one game where everybody kind of played was in
Speaker 2: that early phase of the season when the Pacers weren't
Speaker 2: playing very good basketball. But we do have three games
Speaker 2: worth of data. The next we're two and one in
Speaker 2: the regular season. I mean to be watching a lot
Speaker 2: of that film tomorrow and working on that series preview.
Speaker 2: It'll be up on our feeds most likely Sunday morning.
Speaker 2: Potentially Saturday afternoon. We'll let you guys know when it
Speaker 2: comes out. I'll text you or I'll put it out
Speaker 2: on Twitter and you guys can see it there. But
Speaker 2: we'll have an in depth series preview at some point
Speaker 2: in the next day or two.
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Speaker 2: Channel three, twenty four, twenty five. But the sixth consecutive
Speaker 2: year that a champion failed to get out of the
Speaker 2: second round the following year, and this has been kind
Speaker 2: of something that I've been pushing back on in terms of,
Speaker 2: like every single time there's been any sort of success
Speaker 2: in this era, every from anybody, including myself as a
Speaker 2: Lakers fan, there's this feeling like we've reached the mountain top.
Speaker 2: We figured it out, and now we're here. And it's
Speaker 2: like the Lakers have some injuries that following year and
Speaker 2: their roster is completely blown up. Two years after that,
Speaker 2: you know, the Raptors, they lose Kawhi Leonard. They're completely
Speaker 2: different team after that. The Bucks in twenty twenty one,
Speaker 2: Chris Middleton quickly declines physically. Giannis ends up getting injured.
Speaker 2: A couple of years after that. Next thing, you know,
Speaker 2: the roster's too old for them to contend Golden State.
Speaker 2: They catch this flash in a pan with Jordan Poole
Speaker 2: and Andrew Wiggins, which allows what was a limited roster
Speaker 2: to reach a level that could compete for a championship.
Speaker 2: And you get an all time great type of performance
Speaker 2: out of Steph Curry that allows you to hoist the trophy.
Speaker 2: But then pretty quickly Andrew Wiggins and Jordan Poole kind
Speaker 2: of regrets to the mean and suddenly it doesn't look
Speaker 2: like a championship roster anymore. Twenty twenty three with the Nuggets,
Speaker 2: they end up losing Bruce Brown, Justin Holliday, just a
Speaker 2: little bit of that depth that they used to have.
Speaker 2: Cacp's out of the picture, they're not as good at
Speaker 2: the point of attack. They have looked like a second
Speaker 2: tier contender ever since then, although they do have a
Speaker 2: puncher's chance to win the title this year. You go
Speaker 2: to the following year with Boston. Now, same sort of thing.
Speaker 2: This is an all time great Team's gonna be the
Speaker 2: team that runs the league. And it's like, even if
Speaker 2: Jason Tatum didn't get hurt, they were probably about fifty
Speaker 2: five to sixty percent likely to lose this series anyway.
Speaker 2: Why a couple of guys got a little older, a
Speaker 2: little more banged up. Porzingis wasn't very good. Drew Holliday
Speaker 2: couldn't shoot the three as well as he used to,
Speaker 2: Jaylen Brown couldn't shoot the three as well as he
Speaker 2: used to. A couple guys just went cold at wrong times,
Speaker 2: and suddenly you're out of here in the second round.
Speaker 2: And it's just a reminder that in this era, sustaining
Speaker 2: success is extremely difficult. So you can never get too high,
Speaker 2: you can never get too low. Those big picture roster decisions.
Speaker 2: You've got to be keyed in on the fact that
Speaker 2: if you if you think you're good enough, you're probably not,
Speaker 2: and you probably need more firepower than it appears on
Speaker 2: the surface, and this has just been the latest example
Speaker 2: of that. And I don't know, like, when we look
Speaker 2: back in NBA history, it's kind of crazy right on
Speaker 2: the heels of an era where we saw Lebron James
Speaker 2: win the Eastern Conference eight times in a row, we
Speaker 2: saw Steph Curry win the Western Conference four times in
Speaker 2: a row, we saw the Spurs win the Western Conference
Speaker 2: two times in a row, and it just there's so
Speaker 2: much more parody, There's so much more talent in the league.
Speaker 2: It is so much harder to sustain success. There are
Speaker 2: realities with the second Apron and with the new CBA
Speaker 2: that makes it very difficult to accumulate talent and sustain
Speaker 2: talent in this league. I guarantee you that like the
Speaker 2: next team that everyone's going to be focused on in
Speaker 2: terms of like, this team's gonna win every year, It's
Speaker 2: going to be the thunder until guess what they have
Speaker 2: to pay everybody, And all of a sudden, there's a
Speaker 2: certain amount of their talent that they're unable to retain
Speaker 2: and they end up dipping a little bit in talent,
Speaker 2: and suddenly there's more pressure on Shay to be better
Speaker 2: in every facet of the game, and it's just really
Speaker 2: really difficult to sustain success in the NBA these days,
Speaker 2: and I thought that what happened to Boston this year
Speaker 2: was a really interesting example of that. Jalen Brown kind
Speaker 2: of an interesting example of the tale of two games,
Speaker 2: and it's just something to keep an eye as we
Speaker 2: head into next season with him. He was so good
Speaker 2: in terms of his floor game in Game five, the
Speaker 2: decision making, the deliberate and intentional attack king of Jalen Brunson,
Speaker 2: the refusal to settle for bad jump shots, and just
Speaker 2: like all of that went out the window today and
Speaker 2: what was a much more uneven game from him outside
Speaker 2: of a few shots that he made early. And so
Speaker 2: just with that next year, that's gonna be the key
Speaker 2: for him if he's going to have any sort of
Speaker 2: sustained success as the leader of the Celtics next year,
Speaker 2: it's got to be that game to game floor presence
Speaker 2: of decision making, ruthless precision in terms of the types
Speaker 2: of advantages you're hunting in the half court. That's going
Speaker 2: to be the challenge for him next year. But it
Speaker 2: is going to be more or less a gap year
Speaker 2: in the sense that, like what happened with Golden State
Speaker 2: after Klay Thompson and Kevin Durank got hurt, they used
Speaker 2: a year to accumulate assets to try to pivot and
Speaker 2: make a run in the future. And that's going to
Speaker 2: be the challenge for next season is how do you
Speaker 2: weigh the reality of the talent you have on the
Speaker 2: roster and the fact that you probably could bring everybody
Speaker 2: back and be a three or four seat. You probably could,
Speaker 2: But is it worth it to do that and continue
Speaker 2: to see Porzingis age and continue to see Horford a
Speaker 2: and continue to see Drew Holiday age and then have
Speaker 2: Tatum come back the following year, and you're not good enough?
Speaker 2: And that's where they got. The Celtics got to make
Speaker 2: some tough decisions about what they're going to do with
Speaker 2: the roster this summer and all throughout next season as
Speaker 2: they prepare for Tatum's inevitable return in the following year.
Speaker 2: On that note, let's bring Jackson up. Where you're going
Speaker 2: to Jackson put together a list of potential offseason targets. Jackson,
Speaker 2: I want you to just kind of like put everybody
Speaker 2: in your frame of mind my time before you start going.
Speaker 1: Through the list, I think I was thinking about the
Speaker 1: Celtic summer even you know, before this game, I wasn't
Speaker 1: really expecting to win the series at this point, and
Speaker 1: I have been trying to think about players to target,
Speaker 1: and you don't. You can't pick players that are about
Speaker 1: to exit their prime because you like, to your point,
Speaker 1: your next year is a gap year. Next you're you're
Speaker 1: two years away from Jason Tatum being back to anything
Speaker 1: close to what he's he was this year, Right, So
Speaker 1: you can't go too young. But you also have to
Speaker 1: find mostly contenders that are willing to ship players out
Speaker 1: because most of the players that you're in less than
Speaker 1: a three team deal are only good, only valuable for contenders, right,
Speaker 1: It's not like you're trade Why would you trade a
Speaker 1: young guy in the first place. So I was trying
Speaker 1: to find teams that are fringe contenders that definitely feel
Speaker 1: like they need to make a move if they're going
Speaker 1: to go to be actual contenders, but aren't you know,
Speaker 1: but aren't too good where they're not going to make
Speaker 1: big changes to their core. So I have three different
Speaker 1: categories worth of players, some like realistic possible options, some
Speaker 1: like are these these teams are quite good. But are
Speaker 1: they going to trade these guys? And some these teams
Speaker 1: are incomplete limbo. I can't imagine they trade the players
Speaker 1: this good, but they're in limbo, so maybe they do.
Speaker 1: To start with, my number one target is Derek Lively.
Speaker 1: I feel like Drew Holiday for Derek Lively and some
Speaker 1: you know, with whatever ancillary pieces that requires, is close
Speaker 1: to perfect considering the Mavericks have. I mean, they have
Speaker 1: Klay Thompson, I guess, but they have some needs at
Speaker 1: the guard position and they let they want two way
Speaker 1: players per Nico Harrison's vision, and they have three centers now.
Speaker 2: So let me just for to be Devil's advocate. I'm Nico,
Speaker 2: and I say I view ad as a short term
Speaker 2: option for US. I viewed Derek as the big picture
Speaker 2: center for our team. Would you be interested in Gafford instead?
Speaker 1: How old is Daniel Gafford?
Speaker 2: Let me pull up the payroll real quick.
Speaker 1: Gafford is twenty six. Yes, I would be interested in
Speaker 1: Daniel Gafford.
Speaker 2: I think Daniel Gafford. You know, even when I look
Speaker 2: back last year like that, there's a little bit of
Speaker 2: a switch defense element with Derek Lively that's more impressive. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I think Daniel Gafford is actually a little bit
Speaker 2: more physically imposing underneath the basket.
Speaker 1: Definitely, And so it's tricky.
Speaker 2: I think Derek Lively within a couple of years will
Speaker 2: be substantially better than Daniel. Yeah, but it is, it
Speaker 2: is like it is complicated. There's also like the salary
Speaker 2: matching piece. I wonder because Dallas is not a team
Speaker 2: that has cap space that you'll be trading into. It
Speaker 2: would have to be a situation where you match salaries.
Speaker 2: So Withdrew, let me pull up the Celtic payroll real quick.
Speaker 2: So Drew makes thirty or thirty two if you trade
Speaker 2: from this summer. Gafford is at thirteen. So what about
Speaker 2: what about Clay Thompson? Would you what about a deal
Speaker 2: with like Gafford and Clay.
Speaker 1: I got no problem taking back the shallow Clay Thompson
Speaker 1: if you know, if that's what's required from a salary
Speaker 1: matching standpoint, let next year as a wash, let the
Speaker 1: guy come and just put up a bunch of shots.
Speaker 1: Get Let the guy become a meme for the weirdest
Speaker 1: possible jersey, you know, Dwayne Wayne and a Cavaliers jersey
Speaker 1: type of thing like, that's no issue in mind. I'm
Speaker 1: found completely fine with that.
Speaker 2: Let me take it a step further. So they've got
Speaker 2: Cooper flag too, they do. So where the hell is
Speaker 2: PJ Washington fitting into all of this?
Speaker 1: Oh? True?
Speaker 2: I like, what if it's more of like a Drew
Speaker 2: Holiday for PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford kind of deal.
Speaker 1: Love, what about I went throw in a first round pick.
Speaker 2: That that would be an interesting move that would almost
Speaker 2: immediately make you more useful, and both of those guys,
Speaker 2: both PJ and Daniel would be bird right free agents
Speaker 2: this summer before Tatum returns. Okay, So what's interesting about
Speaker 2: that then is you would have the ability to retain
Speaker 2: both of them at basically whatever number you wanted, not
Speaker 2: north of fourteen. But I don't think either player PJ
Speaker 2: could encroach on that territory potentially, Yeah, but yeah, like you,
Speaker 2: it's a flexibility move too, in the sense that Drew
Speaker 2: Holliday has all those years left on his contract, but
Speaker 2: you're getting back to players that would actually come off
Speaker 2: of the books the year that Tatum comes back from
Speaker 2: his injury right then. From Dallas' perspective. From Dallas' perspective,
Speaker 2: Drew Holliday. You could not pay a better guard with
Speaker 2: Anthony Davis, couldn't.
Speaker 1: I mean they've played before, they've played before. You get
Speaker 1: a complete defensive specialist next to Kay who's not a
Speaker 1: slash defensively actually, but he's going to be coming back
Speaker 1: from a serious injury. You want someone who is going
Speaker 1: from Klay Tom's defensively to Drew Holliday, even as thirty
Speaker 1: four year old Drew Holiday is about as big of
Speaker 1: a gap as you could go defensively.
Speaker 2: To your point, though, I'd prefer Derek. But if I
Speaker 2: countered in that PJ. Washington, Daniel Gafford Range, I think
Speaker 2: I think that is a deal that substantially kind of
Speaker 2: like fits the Celtics new timeline. Also worth mentioning. Both
Speaker 2: those guys are twenty six right now exactly.
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, I got four more in this realistic slash
Speaker 1: possible category. I'm gonna throw all of them at you
Speaker 1: and you tell me which ones you like the most.
Speaker 1: All of these are guys, well, they're on varying different
Speaker 1: levels of teams from in terms of win now versus
Speaker 1: not win now. I got two guards and two bigs.
Speaker 1: Two guards, Jalen Suggs from the Orlando Magic also injured.
Speaker 1: You know, timeline wise, what are they gonna do with
Speaker 1: Jalen Sugs right now? Trey Murphy of the New Orleans Pelicans,
Speaker 1: New Orleans Pelicans, that would probably require a third team
Speaker 1: because the Pelicans, what do they need Drew Holiday Chris
Speaker 1: has porzingis for. But if the third team potentially and
Speaker 1: then two bigs being Nick Claxton and Yakam Pernle.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm the Magic's GM. You've pitched to me Drew
Speaker 2: Holliday for Jalen Suggs. Point of the Magic's payroll real quick.
Speaker 2: If I'm the Magic's GM, I'm thinking I need shooting. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Andrew Holliday doesn't shoot the ball well enough. So what
Speaker 2: if I said I want Derek White for Jalen Suggs.
Speaker 2: Now the construction that that deal Derek White, if you
Speaker 2: made the if you made the trade before the league
Speaker 2: year turned over, he only makes twenty turns into twenty
Speaker 2: eight the following year. But if you did it before
Speaker 2: the league year, you could get it done with Jalen
Speaker 2: Suggs and Mo Wagner. So you get a big back.
Speaker 2: So now let's so, let's pitch it this way because
Speaker 2: if I'm Orlando, I'm saying like Drew doesn't help me
Speaker 2: in the short term or the long term because of
Speaker 2: his age and because of his inconsistent shooting. I like
Speaker 2: Derek White. We talked about this the other day when
Speaker 2: we were talking The Celtics love Derek White, but for
Speaker 2: the right deal, I would move him. Yeah, I would
Speaker 2: move Derek White for Jalen Suggs and Mo Wagner in
Speaker 2: a heartbeat. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think I would too. I think I would too.
Speaker 1: I mean Jalen Suggs, if everything goes right from an
Speaker 1: injury recovery standpoint and from a talent, you know, development standpoint,
Speaker 1: he could basically become just a better version. Not maybe
Speaker 1: not better because Derek White's very good, but I think
Speaker 1: he can become a better defensive version. I think he's
Speaker 1: a He's an amazing defender. Even though Derek White is
Speaker 1: also very awesome.
Speaker 2: Jalen Suggs is arguably the best guard defender in the league.
Speaker 2: He's now dignatic what I'm missing here, and this is
Speaker 2: an important detail. It's actually like a poison pill kind
Speaker 2: of trade because Jalen Suggs is new extension kicks in
Speaker 2: next year at thirty five million, so you actually wouldn't
Speaker 2: get MO back. You'd have to wait for the league
Speaker 2: year to turn over, and then you would trade Drew
Speaker 2: excuse me, Derek directly for Jalen and you would have
Speaker 2: to include a little bit more salary, I think, although Orlando, yeah,
Speaker 2: You're gonna have to include a little bit more salary.
Speaker 2: So it would be like it would be like Derek
Speaker 2: White and and man, the only other guy who really
Speaker 2: fits in that slot is Pritchard, and you don't want
Speaker 2: to give him a down. You got to keep Prichard
Speaker 2: at his number, and he's like, he's arguably like the
Speaker 2: best contract value in the league right now. Yeah, a
Speaker 2: guy who won't make over ten million at any point
Speaker 2: in his contract. But that is a that's an interesting idea.
Speaker 2: And if I'm Orlando, I'm sitting there thinking like Derek
Speaker 2: White with Pallo and in Franz, like.
Speaker 1: That is a fit exactly.
Speaker 2: And Jalen Suggs to me is like a quintessential Celtic
Speaker 2: type of target mate, a dribble, shoot, pass, defend kind
Speaker 2: of guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah. The other ones on that
Speaker 1: that I had in this sort of you know, category
Speaker 1: with Trey Murphy, Nick Claxton, yaka Perl. I don't think
Speaker 1: any of those are quite as good Trey Murphy is.
Speaker 1: I mean, I love Trey Murphy. I don't know what
Speaker 1: that would definitely require a third team. I'm wondering if
Speaker 1: there's a third team situation with the Mavericks there, even
Speaker 1: where you're sending Drew Holliday to the Mavericks, they send
Speaker 1: a first round pick or something to New Orleans some
Speaker 1: salary matching we get Trey Murphy, but.
Speaker 2: That would be a hard one to sell to the
Speaker 2: fans getting rid of Trey Murphy. Nick Claxton is a
Speaker 2: very one.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The reason why Nick Claxton would be perfect with the
Speaker 2: Celtics is he's a switching big who also is a
Speaker 2: vertical spacer, so he could basically be kind of like
Speaker 2: a younger, more athletic version of what Robert Williams was
Speaker 2: for you guys. He makes twenty eight million, so you
Speaker 2: could seamlessly flip Drew for him. And the Nets have
Speaker 2: cap space, so I could pitch it as an opportunity
Speaker 2: to shed salary.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about it.
Speaker 2: Like this, What if you call up the Nets and
Speaker 2: you try to put together a big salary dumping type
Speaker 2: of deal where you get rid of Drew and Christops.
Speaker 2: So you're sending out sixty two, you probably have to
Speaker 2: include all like, you probably have to include multiple first
Speaker 2: round picks for them to do I think so yeah,
Speaker 2: So would you give up multiple first round picks? You
Speaker 2: got to think financially now too, because in this scenario,
Speaker 2: Boston's trying to shed salary. So would you give up
Speaker 2: multiple first round picks to bring back Nick Claxtun is
Speaker 2: like the center of the future for you, twenty six
Speaker 2: years old. He matches right up with Tatum's timeline. Yeah,
Speaker 2: twenty six years old, switching center, vertical spacer. But you
Speaker 2: got to give up your draft compensation to get off
Speaker 2: that salary.
Speaker 1: It's tough. I think it depends what the other if
Speaker 1: there's other options on the table. If from a deal standpoint,
Speaker 1: I would not prioritize salary dumping, I think, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think you might have to salary dumb Kristaps just
Speaker 1: straight up regardless. It looks awful. But I think Drew
Speaker 1: Holliday can get you something valuable from.
Speaker 2: A winner from a winner, So maybe you views view
Speaker 2: poor Zingis. To your point, maybe you you view poor
Speaker 2: Zingis as the Nick Claxton piece, and then you look
Speaker 2: at Drew as a piece where you can actually get
Speaker 2: something positive, right.
Speaker 1: Right, That's kind of how I look at it, all right.
Speaker 1: The the are they the fourth name? Who's the fourth name?
Speaker 1: Yakam Perdle. It's a little old.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't like that one quite as much, but yeah, ya,
Speaker 2: and Yakub's good. Yakub's good. But uh but yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't like that one as much either. Anyway, go ahead, my.
Speaker 1: Are they open to trading this these guys? Because are
Speaker 1: they going to make a huge shake up this summer?
Speaker 1: Are is Jared Allen as well as as well as
Speaker 1: Darius Garland, But Jared Allen primarily because I do feel
Speaker 1: like big is a more of a priority than a guard.
Speaker 2: But so this is a really interesting one. Well, let
Speaker 2: me put you on the spot about this first, after
Speaker 2: how Jared Allen sucked least, I mean, I think.
Speaker 1: You got to just hope that you can make it,
Speaker 1: make it work. The Celtics Biggs at this point are
Speaker 1: in dire straits. Alan Horford is if he's not gonna
Speaker 1: retire this summer, he's not. He's not gonna be anywhere
Speaker 1: impactful next time the Celtics are making a playoff run.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: He's not.
Speaker 1: He's not gonna be an impactful player in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: seven playoffs. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: Also, part of the issue with Jared Allen two is
Speaker 2: like everybody on the team fell apart and he was
Speaker 2: just like part of that kind of like mess. So
Speaker 2: you kind of hope too that you just get him
Speaker 2: next to Jayalen Brown and Jason Tatum and he just
Speaker 2: kind of takes on more of their toughness and personality.
Speaker 2: So he makes twenty million. So the calves, if I'm
Speaker 2: not mistaking our second apron teams, like it's a little
Speaker 2: as of next summer, as of the league calendar turning
Speaker 2: over because Evan Mobley's extension kicks in at forty six
Speaker 2: million experience, isn't that fucking crazy? So so okay, so
Speaker 2: we need to match more in the twenty million range.
Speaker 2: They wouldn't be able to aggregate salaries either, so that
Speaker 2: gets tough. Cleveland's tough to trade with. Yeah, but Jared
Speaker 2: Allen's an interesting idea, right.
Speaker 1: I think that one's kind of interesting. And then I
Speaker 1: got two pipe drinking candidates from teams that certainly should
Speaker 1: not have interest in trading these players, but are complete
Speaker 1: dumpster fire organizationally right now. So maybe they make a
Speaker 1: huge shakeup this summer. Bam At a Baio and John Morant.
Speaker 1: This is the Heat are not trading bam Ata Bio
Speaker 1: to the Boston Celtics specifically. I do want to be
Speaker 1: clear that I'm not stupid, but bam Adebio and John
Speaker 1: Morant are two teams that are, if not going to
Speaker 1: make huge changes this summer, probably should make huge changes
Speaker 1: this summer. And I'm wondering if either of those guys
Speaker 1: might be on the move.
Speaker 2: In their driving kick system. And we've discussed this. The
Speaker 2: Celtics just don't pressure the room enough, yeah, to get
Speaker 2: the types of quality threes when things really bogged down
Speaker 2: because Tatum's first step was never quite good enough to
Speaker 2: beat elite defenders off the dribble.
Speaker 1: And Jalen Brown's handle isn't good enough to beat every
Speaker 1: elite defender off the dribble.
Speaker 2: So let's think, if I'm getting rid of Jaw, if
Speaker 2: I'm Memphis, what do I want in return?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what Memphis wants to do is
Speaker 1: the thing because they are sort of locked into a
Speaker 1: multiple more years of Desmond Band and Jaron Jackson. They
Speaker 1: are paying those guys a lot of them. Okay, that's
Speaker 1: why are they trying to stay relevant? If they're trying
Speaker 1: to stay relevant, y'all Wandrew Holliday and a bunch of
Speaker 1: first round picks. I would give up a lot of
Speaker 1: first round picks obviously for John Moran.
Speaker 2: Would you give up Jalen Brown for John Moran?
Speaker 1: I would consider it.
Speaker 2: So I want to three. I'd want to three. So
Speaker 2: what what if you were like, but you could flip
Speaker 2: Drew for a three? So yeah, Like what about a yeah?
Speaker 2: Jalen Brown for John Moran is super interesting on a
Speaker 2: couple of different level. It's for starters. The weakness of Memphis'
Speaker 2: roster is the three.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's literally this spot on their roster where their weakest.
Speaker 2: It allows them to pivot off of Jaw. Joe gets
Speaker 2: a fresh start with a team that's actually like kind
Speaker 2: of built as a drive and kick structure that kind
Speaker 2: of fits his game super well. He'd be a beautiful
Speaker 2: two man game partner with Jason Tatum. You wouldn't have
Speaker 2: to do any sort of weird things with salary because
Speaker 2: Memphis is way under the cap in the new year,
Speaker 2: So you could straight up trade Jalen Brown for John Morant. Okay,
Speaker 2: so let me put you on the spot about this.
Speaker 2: Brad Stevens calls Memphis offers straight up Jalen Brown for
Speaker 2: John Moran. Who's more likely to say no, Boston?
Speaker 1: I think Boston. I think Memphis wants to trade Drammer.
Speaker 1: I think they just I think they just can't stomach
Speaker 1: it without getting a like an all star in return.
Speaker 1: And dude, it's pretty easy to sell Jalen Brown. I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna lie. He's got its deficiencies, but it's a
Speaker 1: pretty easy sell.
Speaker 2: And in addition to that, I immediately shed fourteen million
Speaker 2: dollars in salary. Yeah, that's a really interesting trade.
Speaker 1: You change Jalen Brown for John Morant, you turn Drew
Speaker 1: and Kris STAPs into some version of what we talked
Speaker 1: about earlier. You're looking at a weird brand nude roster basically,
Speaker 1: but a very fun Southeast basketball team.
Speaker 2: And John Moran always has like injury related issues, where
Speaker 2: would be so easy to just like be like, hey,
Speaker 2: you're sitting down for the next two weeks or we
Speaker 2: can get a great draft.
Speaker 1: Oh for sure next season, yeah, one hundred percent. Like
Speaker 1: if you trade Jalen Brown for John Morant, you can
Speaker 1: turn you turn Drew Holliday into into Derek Lively or
Speaker 1: Daniel Gafford. Dude, all of a sudden, you got in
Speaker 1: twenty whatever, twenty six, twenty seven season, John Morant, Sam Houser,
Speaker 1: Jason Tatum, someone else and Dark Lively is a pretty
Speaker 1: fun grouping of players.
Speaker 2: Is there? So in this theoretical scenario, if I'm getting
Speaker 2: rid of Drew and Jalen, I'm getting rid of my
Speaker 2: two best point of attack defenders by far. Do you
Speaker 2: think Derek White is up to the task of being
Speaker 2: the primary point of attack guy for a championship team.
Speaker 1: I don't know, not really.
Speaker 2: I feel like he.
Speaker 1: Is strange for being a really good defender, a really
Speaker 1: good defensive player. He's strangely not like the most just
Speaker 1: guard guy one on one good. He's very smart, and
Speaker 1: he gets a lot of weak side rotation blocks and
Speaker 1: a lot of transition blocks. He's a great at closeouts.
Speaker 1: He's an awesome defender, but he is not the type
Speaker 1: of just throw him at an other team's best guard
Speaker 1: and like hope for stops type of guy in my opinion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so then basically what you have to do
Speaker 2: is essentially view the future as meaning like next year
Speaker 2: in the following year, as like you just got to
Speaker 2: try to find the next guy who will be your
Speaker 2: primary point of attack guy. And that could literally be
Speaker 2: in these trades that we've pitched in this particular scenario.
Speaker 2: So let's call it. Uh, let's say you flip Drew
Speaker 2: because Drew has immediate value to Dallas, and you flip Brown,
Speaker 2: who has immediate value to Memphis. In this situation, you
Speaker 2: would still have your draft compensation, and so then you
Speaker 2: could try to look to move one of these guys
Speaker 2: for a primary point of attack guard. That's where it's like,
Speaker 2: maybe you look at Orlando and you go, like, now,
Speaker 2: let's talk Derek White for Jalen Sugs.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. That's that's what I'm saying. A
Speaker 1: Ja Morant, a Jamarant, Jalen Suggs, Sam Howser, Jason Tatum,
Speaker 1: Daniel Gafford. A starting lineup is so weird that it's
Speaker 1: kind of breaking my brain. But of all the pivots
Speaker 1: you could make, you know, I think we designed a
Speaker 1: pretty good one for the Celtics.
Speaker 2: I like it. I like there's I was listening to
Speaker 2: Pete Zais earlier today, was talking with Anthony Iron about
Speaker 2: some Lakers stuff, and he's like, I think we need
Speaker 2: to take a hatchet to the roster this summer. So
Speaker 2: you're Jackson's here saying we need to take a hat
Speaker 2: I'm taking a hash.
Speaker 1: I'm definitely taking a hatchet with these brands. It's not
Speaker 1: this is not minor tweaks. You know, I expect him
Speaker 1: more to do just do a minor tweaks around the
Speaker 1: type of summer than this. But you know, if they're
Speaker 1: gonna make changes anybody else on your list, Uh No,
Speaker 1: that's pretty much it. I mean BAM was the other
Speaker 1: pipe dream one.
Speaker 2: But BAM, Yeah, and yeah, the BAM is an interesting one,
Speaker 2: but he definitely would have to go to a different
Speaker 2: team first, before the before you could even potentially pull
Speaker 2: something like that off. That's super interesting though. That was
Speaker 2: the the Jalen Brown for Jahn Morant thing. Is a
Speaker 2: very very interesting trade to consider because the specific dynamic
Speaker 2: that Boston has been missing over the years is a
Speaker 2: singular trait that no team can fuck with everything with
Speaker 2: them has been aggregate talent, even like Tatum's game in
Speaker 2: and of itself is an aggregation of a bunch of
Speaker 2: different pieces that he's very good at but not elite at,
Speaker 2: and Jahn Morant brings the singular trait, which is no
Speaker 2: one can keep him in front off the dribble, and
Speaker 2: that could be a foundational piece that Tatum could be
Speaker 2: basically a force multiplier for because his versatility becomes very
Speaker 2: valuable in the context of a team that like, like,
Speaker 2: there's no way you lose Game one and two of
Speaker 2: this series if you have John Morant, because he's just
Speaker 2: going to be able to get you two or three
Speaker 2: more buckets down the stretch of a game, because he
Speaker 2: has been one of the most dynamic clutch players in
Speaker 2: the league, because no one can stop him from popping
Speaker 2: up off the ground seven feet from the basket and
Speaker 2: shooting a little floater that no one can guard and
Speaker 2: you just have to sit there and go, please miss it, Jah,
Speaker 2: or hopefully we're up by fifteen before he gets there. Like,
Speaker 2: as frustrating as a player as he's been, he does
Speaker 2: have that upside. But this is a really fun exercise.
Speaker 2: Jackson I think we're gonna save the mailbag for playback?
Speaker 2: What do you think?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So all right, everybody head over to playback dot tv
Speaker 2: Slash shoots tonight. We'll do another forty five minutes of
Speaker 2: hanging out, we'll take callers, we'll get into the chat.
Speaker 2: As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us
Speaker 2: in supporting the show. We'll be back on YouTube tomorrow.
Speaker 2: We have tomorrow off. Oh my goodness, today is the
Speaker 2: twenty eighth consecutive night that we have done this, but
Speaker 2: we are taking tomorrow night off because there are no games.
Speaker 2: But tomorrow I will be working on the series preview
Speaker 2: for Nick Pacers that will most likely be up on
Speaker 2: Sunday morning. Sunday afternoon. I'm actually going live with Colin
Speaker 2: right after the game, so Oops tonight will be about
Speaker 2: an hour after that we'll be going, but we'll have
Speaker 2: something on Saturday or on Sunday afternoon after the Nuggets
Speaker 2: Thunder game. As always, again, we appreciate you guys and
Speaker 2: we will see you next time. What so, guys, As always,
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