1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: Radio Together Everything. So don't don't hell, yeah, that's right, 3 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: that's right. I just bawled right into introducing the show. 4 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: Didn't even tell my co hosts. Motherfucking yeah, it's happening 5 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: someone else. This toxic masculinity. My name is Katie Stole, 6 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: and this me that way, Katie. But I appreciate it. 7 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: It's just, you know, we all needed to take our 8 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: compliments where we can get them. I praised your toxicity. Well, 9 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: I assumed that from the band, from the name, from 10 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: the phrase toxic masculinity, you were saying that I was 11 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: masculine in the same way as nineteen eighties thrash metal 12 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: band Toxic with with a K. Yeah. That's yeah, exactly. 13 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: You know me so well, Robert comment. Today, we have 14 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: a guest with us. We just finished recording an interview 15 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: with Steve Laddock. Uh. He is a law professor, constitutional lawyer, 16 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: CNN contributor, amongst podcaster, amongst other things in and he 17 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: was gracious enough to sit down and chat with us 18 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: for an hour, all about things that he knows more 19 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: than we do. The law. Mostly mostly the law, Yeah, 20 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: mostly the law. None of us understand, but he does. 21 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: Laws are fake. So um, but you brought that up 22 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: before we brought him on slutting that in there. I 23 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: will not be bringing it up to undermine the guest 24 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: immediate right. What I love is these boys are on 25 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: their best behavior while we're interviewing, were very then the 26 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: second it gus gets off we were recording this intro 27 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: in the conclusion after the interview that we just did. Um, 28 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: what I really respect about him and and about what 29 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: he is his like willingness to engage deeply and try 30 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: to understand and improved the system, even though I hate 31 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: the system and the law and don't understand it and 32 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: think it's made up. Everything kind of is made up, 33 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,839 Speaker 1: right except for like some very basic facts of like 34 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: your heart needs to pump. Bones. Bones are more or 35 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: less real, although I know somebody whose jawbone used to 36 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: be his thigh bones, So even bones are kind of 37 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: now wiggle room there for Yeah, there's a lot of 38 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: wiggle room. So when I like everything's fake, I guess 39 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: except for it's not. Um, And that's kind of what 40 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: he's pointing out, is that like this system as confusing 41 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: and frustrating and silly and like infuriating it as it is, 42 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: and as often as I want to burn it down, 43 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: understanding how to engage with it and change it. UM 44 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: has material benefits for people's lives that are very real. Um. 45 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: So I respect him a lot, even though, Um, I'm 46 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: going to go punch a bunch of drywall right now 47 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: because I thought about the law too much. I don't 48 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: do that. Uh. And so with that, here is this today. 49 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: We are very grateful to be joined by law professor 50 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: and CNN contributor Steve vlatk Uh to you know, breakdown 51 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: answer questions, discuss impeachment, probably some other things too. I 52 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: would imagine, Hi, Steve, how's it called? Um? You know, 53 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: in the in the context of month eleven of the pandemic, 54 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: it's gone great man, the time really has flown this 55 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: pandemic really so I actually, as we're recording this today, 56 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: today is actually the first day I was in the classroom, 57 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: UM since March last year. So, um, it's a it's 58 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: a little bit surreal sort of things coming full circle 59 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: for me. How how was that? Had that experience? Go? Also, 60 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: can you tell us where you where you teach? Yeah, 61 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: I'm at the Unity of Texas in Austin hook them, Um, 62 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: and I teach at the law school. UM, and you know, 63 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: we're in this weird hybrid mode where basically, for the 64 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: larger classes like my upper level federal courts elective UM, 65 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: students can choose whether they want to be in person 66 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: or online. UM. You know, it's it's their callercent based 67 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: on their circumstances. But for the ones who want to 68 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: be in person, you know, if the professor is willing 69 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: and I am. UM. You know, we have socially distanced 70 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: classrooms and simultaneous live cast in over zoom. So it's 71 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: sort of a weird like half the audience is in 72 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: the room and half the audience at home situation. Ah, 73 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: that sounds broadly reasonable. Yeah, that sounds very reasonable. Also, 74 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: it sounds like, since this is the first time you've 75 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: been back in the classroom, Uh, these procedures the university 76 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: took some time to implement this and gauge everything. And 77 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: I think I don't think I'm speaking out of school 78 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: when I say that some of my colleagues on the 79 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: faculty have relatively different degrees of facility with the technological 80 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: skill UM. And so it may well be that I'm 81 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: in the I'm in the sort of um, I'm outside 82 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: the standard deviations of ability to sort of do the 83 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: simultaneously on multiple platforms. But yeah, when this I'll just 84 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: go with it. When this all started and everyone's transitioned 85 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: overnight to doing all of their classes remotely, I kept 86 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: thinking about, like the nine different teachers I had throughout 87 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: my school career that you remember those like those overhead 88 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: projectors that literally it was just a light box that 89 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: you put the plastic change. I remembered how many of 90 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: my my teachers couldn't work those, And this is going 91 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: to be a problem, and it has proven to be. Yeah, 92 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: I mean to be fair, absolutely no section of society 93 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: has handled this well. Yeah, I think that that is fair. Um, 94 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I've Pelotons has boomed, and 95 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: look right now, I'm guilty. I got one. I got 96 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: the Peloton. I jumped on the bandwagon, you know. Never 97 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: distilleries also nailing it both in terms of dealing with 98 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: our increased alcohol consumption and in terms of manufacturing hand 99 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: sanitizer distilleries and Peloton and Peloton firing on all cylinders. 100 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to the distillery peloton collapse. They do 101 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: a lot of collapse. That's an inside joke for people 102 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: that write a peloton Anyway, I was gonna say, when 103 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: I was young, one of my favorite hobbies to do 104 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,239 Speaker 1: was to do drunken bike rides with like two other people. 105 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: And yeah, it would be a lot sadder. It would 106 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: be very sad, probably revealing way too much about myself. 107 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: But there have been times when I've taken a classic 108 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: rock ride and brought a joint in there with me. 109 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: It was getting to the good part anyway for here. 110 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: So Katie has a different approach to power zones than 111 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: the my my pr means something very different for everyone else. Um. Yeah, 112 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: looking forward to doing that maybe later today, but right 113 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: now we're here to talk about a lot of things, 114 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: like I mentioned, But let's start with impeachment. Have you 115 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: been watching now? You were teaching today, so you haven't. 116 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: Probably have not been watching. Gotten some pigloights, gotten some highlights, 117 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: uh for anybody, I'm sure everybody listening knows. Today Tuesday 118 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: is the beginning of Donald Trump's second impeachment trial. Uh. Well, specifically, 119 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: I guess today, uh is the day where the Senate 120 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: officially votes on whether or not it's even constitutional. To 121 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: impeach a former president. Um, so let's start there. See 122 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: it's constitutional to get a little bit Becker, what is 123 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: the constitution? Yeah, let's start at the beginning. Yeah, this 124 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: is this is the metaphysical question with which all also 125 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: the cons should start. So I mean, I actually think 126 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: we should start with a slightly different question, which does 127 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: why does any of this constitutional stuff matter? Yeah? And 128 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: and in this context, I think the reason why that's 129 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: especially important is because of a very nerdy but very 130 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: important constraint on these proceedings, which is that they're not 131 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: generally going to be subject to review by the courts. 132 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: And so usually when we're finding about what the constitution means, 133 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: we accept, for better or for worse, that if it's 134 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 1: really a serious dispute, it's going to end up in 135 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: the courts, and the courts are going to get it 136 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: right or wrong, often wrong. Um, but you know, the 137 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: last word is going to be the courts. And here's 138 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: one of those rare constitutional questions where the courts don't 139 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: have the last word. Um, where you know, the courts 140 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,119 Speaker 1: have even said it would be weird if we were 141 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: able to supervise of provision in the constitution. That's there 142 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: to check us right, because you know, the durial little 143 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: secret about impeachment is that an overwhelming majority of thes 144 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: in American history, and all of the successful ones have 145 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: been of judges. Um. So so, so part of why 146 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: I get sort of, you know, headbanding into wall about 147 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: some of these constitutional arguments is because it actually doesn't 148 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: matter if they're right, because the courts are never really 149 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: going to have a say on this. All that matters 150 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: is that, you know, these constitutional objections are providing um 151 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: off ramps for Republican senators to say, you know, we 152 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: don't want to condemn what Trump did because then we'll 153 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: alienate the base. But we don't want to condone what 154 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: Trump did because it was pretty freaking terrible. Is there 155 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: some third option where we can actually get out of 156 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: this without having to do either of those things? Along 157 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: comes you know, superficially plausible but actually incorrect constitutional arguments, 158 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,479 Speaker 1: and it's perfect um And so, you know, the scholars 159 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: almost uniformly think it's constitutional to have a trial of 160 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: former officers. Um. The scholars almost uniformally think that it 161 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: doesn't matter if the speeches pretend could by the first 162 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 1: moment or not. But what the scholars think isn't gonna 163 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: matter because just up to the senators at this point. 164 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: So we have this document that we try to interpret 165 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: like everything that our government is allowed to do, like 166 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: through the Lenza, and we have a bunch of scholars 167 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: like you whose job is to understand it. But when 168 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: it comes down to deciding whether or not like it's 169 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: legal under that to do something, it just kind of 170 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: matters what a bunch of guys in Congress think. So, 171 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: I mean not usually right, I mean really usually you know, 172 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: it matters what the courts thing too. I mean so, 173 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: but in this case, so in this case, I mean 174 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: and and And that's because the alternative would give the 175 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: courts the power to, you know, sort of override one 176 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: of the really important checks and balances in the Constitution 177 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: on the courts um. And so there's actually Supreme Court 178 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: decision in a case called Nixon Wrong Nixon Walter Nixon, Okay, 179 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: this is United States um where the court where the 180 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: Supreme Court explains why it's not appropriate for the courts 181 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: to review impeachments. And so a lot of false around 182 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: and say, well, therefore, whatever the senators think, you know, 183 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: is fine, and what I want to say is like 184 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: we should be comfortable vocabulary where senators who adopts transparently 185 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: pathetic constitutional arguments, you know, cannon should be you know, 186 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: punish at the ballot box or doing so like it 187 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: actually auto matter, It should are hied them behind completely 188 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: implausible rooms in the constitution. You know, it says a 189 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: lot about where we are that it won't. Yeah, of 190 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: course it does. I mean because it it makes what 191 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: you're saying makes complete sense, right, Like it wouldn't be 192 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: right to give the courts total say in this kind 193 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: of an instance because they're not generally elected and that 194 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: that would be that would be problematic. But also what 195 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: we're doing is deeply problematic because like you know it, 196 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: the reality doesn't matter, and whether or not these senators 197 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: are acting in accordance with the Constitution doesn't matter. And 198 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: none of the ones who vote against um impeachment will 199 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: ever be punished at the ballot box because I don't 200 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: know the whole Yeah, it just seems bleak. Does this well? 201 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: Does affect the uh if this happens again, like this 202 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: decision or is it just sort of dependent on whoever 203 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: is in the Senate at the time, Like we'll it 204 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: just they'll just do this again in a different way. 205 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: I mean, precedent operates differently right in the play, which 206 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't. Right, So so chords have the standard. This 207 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: this this obnoxious Latin term starry decisive. Um, that's the answer, 208 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: the proposition that altens be an equal court should follow 209 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: their precedence um and not depart from them without good reason. Um. Politically, 210 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: you know, precedent is only as good as the politics 211 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: at the moment. And so we're do well. You know, guys, 212 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: I am I am unfortunately a hopeless optimist about a 213 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: lot of things, um, which which may put me in 214 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: the wrong crowd for this particular enterprise. No opimists not optimists. 215 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: I am also an optimist at my core. It's hard these, yeah, 216 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: but you know, I think, but I think it's worth stressing. Like, 217 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: you know, there's a there's a mem out there that 218 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: because it's inevitable, that enough Republicans are gonna you know, 219 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: cop out and find some procedural grounds to to vote 220 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: to equit. But this is all a wasteed. I want 221 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: to sort of be on recorden saying I don't think 222 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: that's true. That like, even if the Senate ultimately votes 223 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: to aquit. First, you know, if ten or eleven Republican 224 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: Senators vote to convict, that's a big story, even it 225 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: doesn't effect the bottom line. I mean, in the history 226 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: of presidential impeachments, there's been exactly one cross partisan vote 227 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: to convict, and that was Mitt Romney last year. Right, 228 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: If that number shoots up, now you know that's a sign. 229 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: But also too, I mean, I just think it's important 230 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: that you know, we still don't have a complete picture 231 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: of just how bad things were on January six then 232 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: in the days cleaning up to it, we still don't 233 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: have a complete picture of just what the federal government 234 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: knew and when they knew it um and the slow 235 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: walking of the response by the Department Department Defense on 236 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: the sixth, and so you know, I think there ought 237 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: to be we ought to be fixated on what happens 238 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: in this trial. Not because the result is actually somehow 239 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: hanging in the balance. I don't think it is, um, 240 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: but because you know, one of the things that trials 241 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: are supposed to do is build historical narratives, and you know, 242 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: the reality is, yeah, I don't think any Republican is 243 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: gonna pay a price at the ballot box for voting 244 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: to equip Trump. But you know what if it comes 245 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: out that there was coordination between the campaign and Cruise 246 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: and Holly for example, or you know, I mean example hypothetically, right, 247 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, I just I just have that, like you know, 248 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: there there's value in these proceedings even if the result 249 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: is is not something that's that's that that we have 250 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: any doubt at this point, Yeah, because we have I mean, 251 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: just the sheer decency if we need to do something, 252 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: we need to officially say, hold something, some sort of 253 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: acknowledgement that this happened, because right now it feels for 254 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: a lot of us like this was a little over 255 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: a month ago, guys like you know, and and for 256 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: me still just today seeing the different videos shared of 257 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: January six, I've, hey, I don't people make fun of 258 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: the word triggering, but I have found it to be 259 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: very much so, Uh, anyway, this needs to happen at 260 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: least to acknowledge that this this this thing happened. And 261 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: if I'm in and I think we also, you know, 262 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: we have I think for a generation, I think this 263 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: has been true on both sides of the aisle. We 264 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: have you know, surrendered um constitutional high ground to political expediency, 265 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: and I think you know, the Republicans have been more 266 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: successful at it than the Democrats. Two. UM, I think 267 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: the result has been this sort of you know, it 268 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: is no longer true, even though it was for large 269 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: fonts of American history that constitutional arguments are actually significant 270 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: parts of you know, electoral campaigns, right Like, when was 271 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: the last time anyone ran on you know, if I'm elected, 272 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to make sure we take this approach to 273 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: executive for exactly. UM. And it's interesting that we ought to, 274 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: you know, we ought to be thinking about how that's 275 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: happened and how I mean, what the political scientists call 276 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: it is the separation of parties replacing the separation of powers, UM. 277 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: And I think that, like, there are any number of 278 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: symptoms of that UM and this is one of them where, 279 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: you know, if people are just using constitutional arguments the 280 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: way that drunks these lamp posts for support, not for illumination, 281 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: supposed to actually standing on principle, I would love to have, 282 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: you know, I would love to think through how we 283 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: reclaim some of the ideas of like institutional constitutional arguments 284 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: for their own sake as opposed to just you know, 285 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: a means from my side to win in your side 286 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: to lose. Yeah, I mean, so, here's like the the 287 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: trouble is that I I don't know, I don't know 288 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: that it's even possible to do that, because the Constitution 289 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: isn't something most people really see much value in as 290 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: the actual document that it is. You know, it's it's 291 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: whatever set of ideas they've come to for a lot 292 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: of the right the Constitution is the Second Amendment, right, Um, 293 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: you know that that's the culture I grew up in. 294 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: It's not, um a body of of like laws and 295 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: restrictions on power when that power is something you want 296 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: to exercise or want to have exercise in your name. 297 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: And I guess like that's the I don't know how 298 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: we I don't know how we get away from that, 299 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: But I do agree with you that like that going 300 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: through impeachment, even that, if we know that the numbers 301 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: aren't going to work out with Trump, actually getting impeached 302 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: is critical for building a historical record and for UM 303 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: for at least attempting for at least like at least 304 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: trying to hold to the idea that there ought to 305 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: be consequences for this kind of behavior, even if you 306 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: can't force them through to the extent that you should. Um. 307 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: I just don't know how optimistic I am about about 308 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: this having an impact in the future, you know, yeah, 309 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I you know, I don't think it will overnight, right. 310 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: But I think it's it's baby steps. I mean, it's 311 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: it's a question of you know. Um. And I think 312 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: it's really important that Mitt Romney's dime on this hill, 313 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: right right. I think it's really important that he not 314 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: be alone. I think it's really important that Liz Cheney. Um. 315 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: You know, whoever thought Liz Cheney would be uh a 316 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: player in the story? Um? Because it seems to me 317 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: that like one of two things happens. Either you know, 318 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: the party completely abandons them, in which case, you know, 319 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: we're we're looking at the fracture of the Republican Party 320 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: in ways that have enormous long term consequences, um, right, 321 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,239 Speaker 1: or the party actually acknowledges that it has to come 322 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: back to them in some respect. Um. And you know, 323 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: I don't think that the impeachment trial is going to 324 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: be the forum where that fight plays out. I think 325 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: it's going to be primaries. You know how the next 326 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: couple of years ago with respect to whether those folks 327 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: just become outliers or whether they actually become pretty important 328 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: players in national political discourse. I think it's gonna have 329 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: a lot to say about this. Yeah, I think that's 330 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: a really good point. Yeah, I mean we've been talking 331 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: about this for a little bit, this fracturing of the 332 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: Republican Party. You've got obviously you're more classic Republicans than 333 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: never trumpers or and then you have the whole the 334 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: other wing, the Trump supporters, the Q and on the 335 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists, and right now the Republican Party encompasses both. 336 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 1: And this is a real reckoning moment, and like you 337 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: or it should be anyway to see how they navigate this, 338 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: and like you mentioned this, you know, looking for an 339 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: off ramp, looking for a way to figure out how 340 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: to handle this issue, and this impeachment trial forces it 341 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: a little bit. I've seen the argument from some people like, yeah, 342 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: of course, uh, we don't condone his actions. We do 343 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: think that he contributed to it, But they're hung up 344 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: on the fact that, like, I don't know if it's constitutional, 345 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: if this is legal, you know, and they're trying to 346 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: force that. But we know that they have the votes 347 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: to move forward and actually do the proceedings. And I 348 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: am curious to see, as you mentioned, once all the 349 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: evidence is, where are they going to fall? You know, 350 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: what what side are they going to choose? Um? You 351 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: know we've already established, we all know that very unlikely 352 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: that he is convicted. I'm curious. The other thing that 353 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: has been floated is barring him from office. Now will 354 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: he have to be voted guilty completely in order for 355 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: that to happen? Yes, Um, I mean so so there. 356 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: I mean there there are three different ways that that 357 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: Trump could theoretically be barred from future office. The most 358 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: straightforward is this one, which is the Senate votes to 359 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: convict and then it takes a second vote to disqualify him. Um. 360 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: I mentioned there have been eight successful impeachment you know 361 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: convictions in American history, Um, and then three of those 362 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: eight led to disqualificately, it led to the Senate vote 363 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: to disqualify the officers, most recently Judge Porteous. Um. There 364 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: are two other possibilities. I just think that they're both 365 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: far more remote. Um. The first is that there are 366 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: one or two criminal statutes that after really impose as 367 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: a penalty for a conviction um, disqualification from future office, 368 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: including ironically enough, the insurrection statute UM. Right, and then uh, 369 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: And then there's also Section three of the fourteenth Amendment UM, 370 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: which at least in theory, you know, disqualifies those who 371 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: actually engage in insurrection from holding at least some federal offices. 372 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 1: The problem with both of those is that they require 373 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: external actors to do things they've never done before. So 374 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: the criminal statutes would require the Biden administration to actually 375 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: prosecute Trump UM, and the Section three procedure would require 376 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: converss to do something that's never done before, which is 377 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: somehow pass some kind of legislation that would implement this 378 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: provision that would execute it. You know, there are things 379 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: I can imagine Senate Democrats being willing to nuke the 380 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: filibuster over UM. I'm not sure that's one of them. 381 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: And so I just I'm not even sure that that 382 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: gets through the Senate. So, you know, I think this 383 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: is the most likely way to to kick Trump out formally. UM. 384 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: Of course, this goes back to what we were talking about. 385 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: There's still the ecent to which, you know, building a 386 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: more complete record, building a record that Trump's opponents, even 387 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: within the Republican Party can use. Um would be a 388 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: value practically, Um, if you really were to try to 389 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: throw his hat back in the ring in in three 390 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: years well together everything. So I one of the things 391 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: I'm curious about is how likely it is, because I 392 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: think it most valuable part of what's happening today as 393 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: we record this in Congress is the the fact that 394 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: hopefully more information will come out that will be able to, 395 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: like you said, kind of tie in whether or not, 396 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: like Cruise and Holly were communicating with Trump and to 397 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: what levels some of these people were involved in actually 398 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: instigating what happened on the sixth, Um, is it the 399 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: kind of thing that we could see, you know, even 400 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: if they're not willing to go after Trump, we could 401 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: see prosecutions and even like like like people from talking 402 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: about kicking Marjorie Taylor Green out of out of her seat, Like, 403 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: is is there any actual way to do that? Is 404 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: there a possibility this leads two people who like facing 405 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: criminal charges from people are what they've done? Yeah, people 406 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: aren't Trump? I mean maybe, Um. So, I mean, let's 407 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: take one of the let's take one of the more 408 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,719 Speaker 1: I think significant claims floating out there right that there 409 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: were members of Congress who gave you know, scouting tours 410 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: um in the days leading up to January six, right, 411 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: I mean specifically Green, specifically Green. Um. So so I 412 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: mean I do I want to talk about Green for 413 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: a second and in a second, I mean, but so 414 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: so if if if, if there were more concrete evidence 415 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: of that, right of course, yes, that could be you know, 416 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: not just a matter of expulsion proceedings in either the 417 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: House or the sentence been upon who the member is. 418 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: It could be a matter of criminal charges and and 419 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: and I think that would not be implausible or unpresent well, 420 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: I mean, the whole thing is unpreceded. Um. I had 421 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: a deeper concern though about Marjorie Taylor Green, which is that, 422 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: you know, the Republicans, it's like she's absorbing right, all 423 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: of the hits um for conduct that really that while 424 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: execrable um, execrable um right, um, it's not that radically, 425 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, worse than a heck of a lot of 426 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: members of the Republican conference in both the House and 427 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: the Senate. I mean, some of the things she said, 428 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: and it's on and is on videos. Having said sure, 429 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: but you know, I feel like she's absorbing all of 430 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: the punches um that you know, Moe Brooks and Kevin 431 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: McCarthy and Josh Holly and Ted Cruz, like the energy 432 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: that I thought there was for at least a few 433 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: days to really, you know, hold accountable those members who 434 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: could be held most directly traceable to what happened. Now 435 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: seems like, you know, oh well, as long as you know, 436 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: stripping Marjorie Taylor Green of her committee assignments, all right, 437 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: we're done, um right. So so I'm I'm a little 438 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: worried that she's actually become a distraction, um compared to 439 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: folks with far more power, um, who who I think, 440 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: in some ways were actually much more directly involved in 441 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: in facilitating would happen on January six, and who might 442 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: even recognize that and use that as an opportunity to say, 443 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 1: oh Green, no, Green, We're not like her. Let's get 444 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: rid of her. Where are The're the good ones now, 445 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: even though they have so much more to do with it? Yeah, 446 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I just I think I think she has 447 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: become a convenient um, not Patsy but foil um. Yeah, 448 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: scapegoat right exactly where you know? I mean, look, how 449 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: many I am guys, I I would I will never 450 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: get over. There's so many things about generous wis will 451 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: never get over. The thing I will really never get 452 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: over is the votes that night, right after what happened, 453 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: when you still right, you know, eight different Republican Senators 454 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: and over a hundred and thirty five members of the 455 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: House still voting to you know, disqualify Biden electors from 456 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: Arizona and Pennsylvania. UM. And it seems to be that, like, 457 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, this problem runs a heck of a lot 458 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,959 Speaker 1: deeper than Donald Trump and Marjorie Taylor Green, and you know, 459 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: the the my concern is that people are gonna feel 460 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: like punched out. If you know, we get through the 461 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: Trump trial and we get through Green being stripped of 462 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: her committee assignments, it's like, all right, you know, that 463 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: was enough. We're tired of this. There's other stuff to do, which, yeah, 464 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: there are a lot of I just I don't know, 465 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: this is this is this is not an an accurate analogy. 466 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: But like you know, the I started my career studying 467 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,719 Speaker 1: UM international war crimes trials UM and and sort of 468 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: the the UM, the movement towards, you know, after wars, 469 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: holding people criminally accountable right, the rise of individual criminal 470 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: responsibility UM. And one of the remarkable things that you 471 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: see and studying in that field is how hard it 472 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: is to overcome the inertia of exhaustion UM. And you know, 473 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: it's sort of the like, you know, we won the war, 474 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, can we can we get back to two 475 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: normal times? And and how you know how you really 476 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 1: it really is sort of swimming up stream um to 477 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: pursue accountability in those contexts. Um. That makes it harder, 478 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: but it doesn't make it less worth doing. Yeah, yeah, 479 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: I mean. And there was also a debate that I 480 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: found really interesting before Nuremberg about whether or not it 481 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: was like about how it was a very problematic precedent 482 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: to set to charge people for things that in some 483 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: cases weren't crimes before they like, were not crimes in 484 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: the nation where they committed them when they committed them. 485 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: That you're kind of retroactively saying this thing you did 486 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: is is a crime and now we're going to punish 487 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: you for it. No incremen lega Yeah, I guess yeah, 488 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: I've heard of yeah, no crime without law yeah. And yeah, 489 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: and the notion that there are some things that are 490 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: just so morally reprehensible that it doesn't matter if they're 491 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: written down or not. Um. Now, I don't think that 492 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: would happen in January six rises to the level of that. 493 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: I mean, we're not talking crimes on this in genocide here. 494 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: But I do think that the political coal analogy is 495 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: not is not implausible, right that that the notion that 496 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: you know, the every you know there there's so much 497 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: energy pushing in favor of like getting past it. And 498 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: that's why it's so important to sort of, you know, 499 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: for folks to actually sort of take a pause and say, well, listen, 500 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: even if this is not gonna work, even if we're 501 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: not going to convict him, even if we're not going 502 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: to get all this stuff done, we shouldn't give it 503 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: an a temptation to just, you know, move on. We 504 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: actually should make sure that we set some kind of 505 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 1: at least historical precedent lest this happen again. Yeah. Um, 506 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: I might pivot now slightly. Some thing you you mentioned 507 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: blowing up the filibuster and uh, the filibuster in general 508 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: has been a topic for a while that people debate 509 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: and discuss, and I think that we should discuss it 510 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: here today with you. Um, maybe maybe start by giving 511 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: us your law professor breakdown of what the pillar filibuster is. 512 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: You know, we definitely all know what it is, but 513 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: let's just make sure everybody knows. I mean, I think 514 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people were surprised that you don't have 515 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: to like stand in the middle of Congress any It's like, 516 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: it's not Mr Smith goes to Washington because it's changed. 517 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: So so one of the I mean, I actually think 518 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: one of the best proposals with regard to the filibusters 519 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: to go back to the old school filibuster um. So, so, 520 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: the filibuster um is basically a Senate procedural rule, and 521 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: it's a Senate procedural rule about something called culture UM 522 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: C l O t U r E. And the idea 523 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: is that UM in the Senate that there are now 524 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: lots of exceptions, but at least the default rules in 525 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: the Senate. Before you can move to before you can 526 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: vote on a particular action a judicial nomination UM, confirmation 527 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: of a Cabinet secretary, passing legislation UM, you first have 528 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: to close debate UM, and that's cloture. And the vote 529 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: to close debate UM requires sixty votes UM. Right, that's 530 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: the sort of the modern version of the filibuster. UM. 531 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: The old school filipbuster was that you couldn't close debate 532 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: so long as a senator was speaking um. And so 533 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: you know, the Mr Smith goes to Washington style filibusterum 534 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: or you know two more modernized the stackhouse filibuster from 535 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: the West Wing UM is you know, is literally a 536 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: senator standing on the floor of the Senate reading whatever 537 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: the heck they want to just to sort of kill time, um, 538 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: either to make a political point or because time is 539 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: of the essence and they can stall out the clock. 540 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: It's usually one or the other. And you know about 541 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: I don't I should remember xact one and I don't. 542 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: But like fifteen fifteen years ago, um, you know, the 543 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: Senate got rid of the sort of you have to 544 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: do the whole standing and talking thing um, which just 545 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: made it so much easier for the filibuster have become 546 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: this automatic obstacle to everything. I just imagined all of 547 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: the senators aging up and none of them leaving office, 548 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: and we're like, let's get rid of that, because I 549 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: kind of for this the old idea of like you 550 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: can if you can, if you're willing to stand there 551 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: and talk about nonsense for days. You can things up. 552 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: That's kind of rad It's like, yeah, except that it 553 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: can be used against us, you know. But but because 554 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: I mean, we have to say the quiet part out loud, right, 555 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: which is that, Um, in a world in which the 556 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: Senate itself is not representative, right, the filipbuster dramatically exacerbates 557 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: the unrepresentativeness of the Senate. UM. And so you have 558 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: this problem where even though even though both parties have 559 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: wielded the filibuster against the other, UM, Right, the reality 560 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: is that the filibuster sort of relatively allows a far 561 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: smaller number of Americans on the Republican side right to 562 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: to to halt legislation or appointments in their tracks than 563 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: Americans on the Democratic side, given how many you know 564 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: people are representating in the twenties small est states in 565 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: the country. UM. Now, it's just a Senate, it's just 566 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: a Senate procedural rule. The Senate has the power to 567 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: change its rules. UM. And so we've seen the gradual 568 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: demise of the filibuster for judicial appointments. UM. And Republicans 569 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: like to say it's all Harry Reid's fault. That hilarious, UM. 570 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: Historical revisionism. They love that, though they love that, they're 571 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: very good at it. It's true. Um. So yes, Harry 572 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: read in one sense, Harry Reid fired the first salvo, 573 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: in the sense that Harry Reid, when he was sent 574 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: a majority leader, blew up the filibuster for circuit level 575 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: judicial confirmations. Um. But of course that wasn't out of nowhere. 576 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: That was in response to years of Republican and transigence 577 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: and filling seats um with Democratic appointed judges on the 578 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: circuit courts. But then the Republicans are and say, well, 579 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: of course, then we can blow up the filibuster gorse um. 580 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: Which is why there's now no longer a filibuster for 581 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: Supreme Court confirmations. It's why um, the last four, you know, 582 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: all three of Trump's Supreme Court nominees are in the 583 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: closest confirmation votes all time. Um. That wouldn't have even 584 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: been possible when they were still a filibuster. Um. But 585 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: it's still there for ordinary legislation. Um. And you know 586 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,239 Speaker 1: the McConnell and Cornin and the sort of the old 587 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: school center pub leadership you know, have been on this 588 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: tour in system that like without the filibuster, the Senate 589 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: will lose its character, to which my responses, You've got 590 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: to be kidding me. Um. But so you know, all 591 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: it would take to blow the filibuster is a simple 592 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: majority vote, um, which requires all fifty Senate Democrats. And 593 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: you know Senator Mansion is on record is saying he 594 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: doesn't want to do it. Um. I think Senator Cinema 595 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: has hinted that she doesn't want to do it. Um. 596 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: And so you know there's to quote Hamilton's you don't 597 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: have the votes. You don't have the votes right now. Um, 598 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: probably not at all. But I mean, I mean, I'd 599 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: love to talk a little bit more about what it 600 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: could mean for us if we did or what, because 601 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: it's there's there's of course, when you have the majority, Uh, 602 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: that's convenient. But there's a very good chance that we 603 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: will not have the majority in two more years and 604 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: what that would mean for us. Not that that's necessarily 605 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: the right argument to make, it's just worth acknowledging kind of. 606 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I think so I think that not having 607 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: the majority in two years argument doesn't really I don't 608 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: lose sleep over that, because you know, Biden will still 609 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: be the president in two years. But I mean, just 610 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: so this is so, this is Corner's argument, which is 611 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: the second the pendulum s wins back, you know, the 612 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: Republicans who whatever they want. And my responses, when have 613 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: the Republicans not done whatever they wanted? Um, there's that. 614 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: Otherwise we're we are, Yeah, it a stalemate constantly. But 615 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: but it's worse than that. I'm sorry. I have the 616 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: same concern that that Katie's expressed, which is like, Okay, 617 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: you're giving up the filibuster. That also means that like 618 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 1: when they get back in power, they can steam really 619 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: But also I can't remember a time when the Democrats 620 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: stopped anything terrible that way. So I yeah, yeah, I 621 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: guess so I would slay that on that. I actually 622 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: think that there were a lot of I think there's 623 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: a lot. I think there's a lot like the Bush administration, 624 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: and I think some parts of what Trump was trying 625 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: to do, like why you're trumping up doing everything through 626 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, executive branch regulations when he had a fifty 627 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: three or fifty four, you know, forty six majority in 628 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: the Senate because he didn't have sixty votes. Um right, 629 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 1: I mean I think that I wouldn't dismiss that as 630 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: a result of the fact that he used EOS, it's 631 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: easier to kind of undo certain thing that's right makes sense, 632 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: But because the flip side, to me, the strongest argument 633 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: about the filibuster has is all about increasing the franchise, right, 634 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: which is that the most the simile, most important thing 635 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: Democrats can do now that they control both houses of 636 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: Congress and the presidency is make it easier for people 637 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: to vote. UM. And And you know that has two effects, right. 638 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: One it's actually a good thing in the abstract, like 639 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: more people voting good too, it's probably good for Democrats UM. 640 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: And So you know, I think the to me this 641 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: really I don't think it makes sense to blow up 642 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: the filipbuster just to get through you know, a economic 643 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: relief package UM, as important as that is UM, or 644 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: other legislation that is I think, you know, sort of 645 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: a one time policy initiative, however important it may be. UM. 646 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: I think it is important to talk about getting through 647 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: meaningful voting rights reforms UM in a context in which 648 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: you know, we're already seeing Republican state legislatures reacting to, 649 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: you know, all of the election fraud that happened, um 650 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: to justify ever more suppressive measures on voting in ways 651 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: that are probably gonna hurt Democrats at the ballot box 652 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: as early as you know, next November. So I guess 653 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: I just you know, to me, it's it's it's sort 654 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: of holy. Apart from Mansion and Cinnamon, the politics at 655 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: the moment, I think it ought to be a question 656 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: about not just doing what's convenient right now, but which 657 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: is actually gonna have a long term impact on you know, 658 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: the shape of things in Washington. Do you I mean, 659 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: we don't have those votes now. Do you think that 660 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: there's a world within the next couple of years where 661 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: we might be able to push for that to happen? Maybe? 662 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: I mean, so you know, I I lots of people 663 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: are down on Chuck Schumer, UM, and I understand that. UM. 664 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: You know, listen, I'm a New Yorker. Um. We we 665 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, we we we we know. Um, I think 666 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: I would I would just say, I mean, I think, 667 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: you know, the most important relationship in Washington right now 668 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: is the relationship between Schumer and Mansion. And you know, 669 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: in a world in which the Republicans, to me, the 670 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: question is what told what what would the Republicans have 671 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 1: to do to push Mansion off the cliff, um right. 672 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: And and so I actually think there's something to be 673 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: said for, you know, carefully walking the line sort of 674 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: push them for meaningful policy changes, forcing the Republicans to 675 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: kill some of these things that Mansion might actually want, um, right, 676 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: as opposed to starting with like Supreme Court reform, which 677 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: Mansion doesn't want. Um. You know, pick things that are 678 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: actually important to Mansion in Cinema, make those legislative priorities, 679 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: and when the Republicans kill them, you know, use that 680 00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: as sort of saying, got you know, look, look what 681 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 1: we can't do because of the filibuster um. And indeed, 682 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the irony is right, Mansion and 683 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: Cinema could probably go across the aisle and find eight 684 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,839 Speaker 1: or nine Republican Senators to say, guys, help us out here, right, 685 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: you know, um, vote for culture, vote vote for culture 686 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: on this or else. Right. So the question, I think, 687 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: so there are two questions here. One is a Schumer 688 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: going to go that route where he actually tries to 689 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: pick the right fights to get you know, the most 690 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: moderate numbers of his conference on board and to you know, 691 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: our Cinema and Mansion gonna use any of this as 692 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: leverage to actually try to get some of the more 693 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: moderate Republicans to let some of these bills go through. Right, 694 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: It's kind of like a chain you have to create, Like, well, 695 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: he put pressure on them in order to get them 696 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: to put pressure on other people. And the trans Mansion 697 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: even going. Is the managine even capable of putting pressure 698 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: on anybody? Yeah, I think I think he is. I 699 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: think it's question whether he wants to. And that's why 700 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's more a question of what 701 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,479 Speaker 1: his legislative priorities are at this point than what schumers are. 702 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: This is really really insightful and helpful for me, I'm 703 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: sure for all of us. One thing is I'm listening 704 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: to this conversation, and how you're breaking it down is 705 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: how much of a game it is also like a 706 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: game of strategy between these people and and and exchanging 707 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: of priorities and favors, and it's and and this is 708 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: really insightful and I know that that's how it helps. 709 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: It's just so hard sometimes when there's such a disconnect 710 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 1: between what you're seeing around us out here, especially during 711 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: a pandemic and people suffering and knowing what's at stake, 712 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: like it's a big deal. Voting rights is a big 713 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: deal that we have to bargain our way to being 714 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,760 Speaker 1: able to do a small step in the right direction. 715 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: Is it's hard. It's hard. I understand that the frustration 716 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: that so many of us feel. But I also it's 717 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: helpful to hear this perspective when you're from our place, 718 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: where like, you know, why isn't this happening? Why isn't 719 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: this happening when we know why? Because there's there's these 720 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,839 Speaker 1: inner workings that are happening. Yeah, I mean, and that's 721 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: not that's not to defend the inner workings. I mean, 722 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: you know, I think this is not this is not 723 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: the system I would have created, but the reality of it. Well, 724 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 1: and voting might a great example. I mean, so the 725 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, you know, in strikes down the preclearance formula 726 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: in the Voting Rights Act in the Shelby County case, right, 727 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 1: and it says, listen, you know, Congress, you can fix this, 728 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: um knowing full well that so long as the filibuster 729 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: isn't in place, it's going to be almost impossible to 730 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 1: get meaningful vote and rights reform. Through both chambers of Congress, 731 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 1: right that the House has passed a couple of times 732 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: since voting rights reform legislation that's died in the Senate. 733 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: And so, you know, I think the you know, there 734 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: are lots of problems with the Senate as an institution. Um. 735 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: For better or for worse, We're stuck with it, um. 736 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 1: And so I think the question becomes not just sort 737 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: of how do we cur you know, how do we 738 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: howl at the moon about the Senate, but how do 739 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: we actually put pressure on the on the trigger points, 740 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: on the places where it actually might move the needle. 741 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: And you know, unfortunately, right now with the Senate, that 742 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: falls on you know, the well I was gonna say, 743 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 1: a Democratic senator from a state that Trump won by 744 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: you know, many many many, many, many many points. I mean, 745 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, the the the the member of the Senate, 746 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: you know, the Democratic member of the the Senate who was 747 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: from the reddest state, um. And you know, that's that's 748 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 1: where we are. And I think that's you know, the 749 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: this is part of why you know, to me, the 750 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: most disappointing thing about the election in November was how 751 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 1: poorly the Democrats fared in some of the closer Senate races. 752 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,439 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Sarah goodeyon losing the Susan Collins right, 753 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, I mean Lindsey Graham somehow surviving, Um McConnell. 754 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: I mean, he won by a lot, but it's it's hard, 755 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,879 Speaker 1: it's hard, it's hard to see. And I know that 756 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: there there's lots of different reasons for that, and it's 757 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: very dependent on the region. But this general, you know, Okay, 758 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: we're not gonna have not go to vote for Trump, 759 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that I'm going to let the 760 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 1: Democrats have the power you know, uh, mentality for a 761 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: lot of voters, I think, and you know, and I 762 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 1: think the question that that that we already be asking 763 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: is you know, that might have made sense on November three, 764 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: but now that we've seen what these Republican senators have done, um, 765 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,319 Speaker 1: you know, and the extent to which they've continued to 766 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: indulge the big lie about the election, Um, is anyone 767 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: in the party gonna care? Right? Is it? Is it 768 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: actually gonna be you know, a hindrance to them? And 769 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: I think the short answer is probably not, Um that 770 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: actually it's going to help them in their primaries if 771 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: they're primaried, you know, the next time they're up. So 772 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 1: you know, that's why I think the it really is 773 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: a series of interlocking gears where all it takes us 774 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: for one of the gears to get stuck and then 775 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: the whole system just sort of stops moving um And 776 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: so you know, blowing up the filibuster is blowing up 777 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: one of those you know, gears, um and And I 778 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: think the it has obvious short term benefits. I think 779 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: the tricky part is that it's very hard to get 780 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: to fully appreciate an advanced the potential negative long term 781 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,879 Speaker 1: concept once is how do you keep yourself engaging with 782 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: this system in a productive way, because that's one of 783 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: the things I'm having trouble with, especially after last year. 784 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,280 Speaker 1: Like I I UM, I hate politics, and I also 785 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: hate the legal system UM and I I do in 786 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 1: sort of my work in journalism and my work covering 787 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: like terrorism, I engaged with it to some extent, and 788 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: it's always very frustrating. And you you noted a little 789 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: earlier that this is not the system that you would 790 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: have chosen to build, UM, But you do engage with 791 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 1: it in a very complex and a very deep and 792 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: a very I think product. It seems like a productive way. 793 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: How do you like kind of keep your morale going 794 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: to let you engage with it in that way? I 795 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: guess I'm curious as to like you're you're you're more 796 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,360 Speaker 1: aware than most of us about how messed up the 797 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: way this actually functions. Is how do you keep how 798 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: do you keep engaging with it? Because the alternative is worse? Um? 799 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, you know the I'm a I 800 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: love Churchill, right, and one of my favorite Churchill quotes is, 801 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: you know, democracy is the worst form of government except 802 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,919 Speaker 1: for all the others. Um. You know, the the short 803 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: version is I I said earlier than I'm like hopelessly optimistic. 804 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: I think part of that's because just when it thinks, 805 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: just when it looks like things are totally beyond salvation, 806 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: something positive happens. Right. So, you know, Biden one in 807 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,879 Speaker 1: November by by a lot, by the way, I mean less, 808 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 1: let's less we forget like that election was not close 809 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: by historical standards. Um, it is not often that a 810 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: that a a first term president running for re election, 811 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,240 Speaker 1: you know, um gets trounds like that, UM, And indeed, 812 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 1: in the process loses control of both the House and 813 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:46,239 Speaker 1: the Senate. The last time that happened was Herbert Hoover. UM, right, 814 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,320 Speaker 1: who you know, I don't think we think of fondly 815 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 1: when we think of of historical of historical example. So 816 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,760 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, part of it is the quote 817 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: is trite, you know, the arc of the moral university, 818 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: that the moral arc of the universe is long, but 819 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: it bends towards justice. But I actually think it's true. UM, 820 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: and I think it's just you know, my I see my, 821 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: my teeny tiny cog in the machine role here as 822 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 1: just trying to help raise the level of public conversation 823 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: of you know, sort of let's at least have nuanced 824 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 1: conversations about these stands as opposed to the superficial talking 825 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: points versions of these things. UM. And I try that 826 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 1: my classroom me. I you know, I teach at the 827 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: flagship university in a red state. UM. You know, I 828 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: got plenty of UM, exceptionally bright conservative students in my classes. UM, 829 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 1: and I try to show them like they and I 830 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 1: are going to disagree about almost everything, let's at least 831 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: understand what we're disagreeing about, UM, as opposed to just 832 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,799 Speaker 1: caricature on the other Side's arguments, and I think, you know, 833 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: that's not necessarily a quick way to reform things. But 834 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,879 Speaker 1: I do hope that generationally, right there will be some 835 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 1: shift toward um, not seeing everything as like us versus 836 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 1: them and more, you know, sort of pluralism. And I 837 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 1: just I have to hope for that, because, as I said, 838 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 1: the alternative is worse well together everything. One of the 839 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,480 Speaker 1: difficulties I have is that the US versus them thing, 840 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,560 Speaker 1: simplifying everything to the point of an accuracy, um, at 841 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:23,800 Speaker 1: this point in time, seems to objectively work better. Um. 842 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 1: It's not in terms of the outcome for society, which 843 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,360 Speaker 1: is disastrous, but in terms of the outcome for the 844 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 1: individuals who are making it us versus them, right, Like, 845 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,800 Speaker 1: even if they don't maintain political power, they make money 846 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: and build basis of support. And UM, I guess yeah, 847 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm coming from this at this from more 848 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,240 Speaker 1: of a pessimist standpoint, because when I think of that phrase, 849 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: like the moral arc of the universe bends towards justice, 850 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: my first question is who's justice, you know? Um? And 851 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: if the answer is you know, that's that's that's what 852 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: happens when we live in a pluralistic society, right we 853 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: you know that's that's gonna change. Um, But I would 854 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 1: just say, I mean, I am was miserable in every 855 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,800 Speaker 1: possible but but it was miserable in so many different ways. 856 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: I mean, right, you know the George Floyd protests, right, 857 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,719 Speaker 1: were horrifying, right, the I mean, not the protest, but 858 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,280 Speaker 1: like the you know, the reason for them, the reason 859 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:22,279 Speaker 1: for them response and a lot of responses to it. Right. Um. 860 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,440 Speaker 1: I actually, you know, I have this potentially naive view 861 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,239 Speaker 1: that we're gonna look back five, six, seven years from 862 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 1: now and to actually galvanized into caring about politics. Um, 863 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: you know, a larger chunk of the American population than 864 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,840 Speaker 1: then had been previously engaged. And that much like the 865 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: sort of mid to late nineteen sixties, right, We're that 866 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: kind of galvanizing effect had dramatic long term effects on policy. Um. 867 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,359 Speaker 1: You know that's gonna take some time, guys to show, right. 868 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 1: And I do completely agree with that, and and and 869 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: and with you, Robert, because they understand what you're saying. 870 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,839 Speaker 1: And I agree with that. And it's a fear and 871 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,600 Speaker 1: it's what we see. But in the moment and in 872 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: the right now, in this present Um, I know that 873 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:12,399 Speaker 1: I am seeing more people engaged, more people standing up, 874 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 1: more people paying attention. UM. And I know that you know, 875 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,239 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement wasn't a flash in the pan. 876 00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: It took It took time, Just as you were saying, Steve, 877 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: it's still taking time. UM. And I'm horrified by the 878 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 1: last year and grateful that I get to be a 879 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,560 Speaker 1: part of it, you know, get to be a part 880 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,640 Speaker 1: of the next steps. UM. And it kind of reminds 881 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: me basically what your answer to Robert's question about how 882 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,880 Speaker 1: do you stay optimistic is is you're focusing on the 883 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: thing that you can tangibly do, which is educated to 884 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,839 Speaker 1: foster conversations, to push back to you know, but create 885 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: a space where people can can have these kinds of 886 00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 1: conversations safely. And that's all. It's what anybody can do 887 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: right now. It's like, focused on the things that you 888 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,920 Speaker 1: can control and show that things are are you know, 889 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,960 Speaker 1: capable to change even in this gummy, geared up system. 890 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,200 Speaker 1: Because you've worked on Hamden and v Rumsfeld, is that right, 891 00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:20,279 Speaker 1: which made it clear that the commissions in Guantanamo Bay 892 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,040 Speaker 1: were unconstitutional? Those things can happen. That's what you were 893 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 1: talking about your sort of studying of how to hold 894 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 1: war criminals accountable. Um, even after years, although I would 895 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 1: say we sort of forgot a little bit about um W. 896 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,160 Speaker 1: Bush and what everybody has done. Um, you were fair 897 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,839 Speaker 1: about Nuremberg. We didn't do a great job then either. Yeah, 898 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,399 Speaker 1: we're not not perfect at it, but attempts are made. 899 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 1: I am incredibly privileged. I mean I'm privileged in like 900 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,919 Speaker 1: forty seven different ways, right, I am you know, a UM, 901 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,920 Speaker 1: A a white UM tenured UM male, you know, straight 902 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 1: law professor UM in a job that I basically can't 903 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,160 Speaker 1: get fired from. And so it's easy for me to 904 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,160 Speaker 1: sit on my to sit up in my ivory tower 905 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 1: and say some of these things. UM. But I do 906 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,320 Speaker 1: think that like the you know, the the extent to 907 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,759 Speaker 1: which people now see it as actually part of their 908 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,279 Speaker 1: responsibility to be active, um and to be participants in 909 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,560 Speaker 1: our polity and to not just be apathetic. UM. You know, 910 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,680 Speaker 1: gone are the days of there's no difference between al 911 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: Gore and Ralph Nader um right, Um or sorry, I'm 912 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,440 Speaker 1: sorry that there's notes in between al Gore and George Bush. Right, 913 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,960 Speaker 1: the the Neniator, the Nator line that like, you know, 914 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,440 Speaker 1: Gore and Bush, you know, are the same, are the 915 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,040 Speaker 1: same thing? Like, I mean, that was ridiculous in two thousands, 916 00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: but it actually had truction. Um. And I think, you know, 917 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,160 Speaker 1: we're at a point for better force that's not anymore. 918 00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: So I guess, you know, I just I just hope 919 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 1: that we are sowing the seeds that we are providing 920 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,080 Speaker 1: foundation for folks who are smarter than us and younger 921 00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: than us. Um, right to come along and say we've 922 00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: been do own this wrong. You know, let's do this better. Um. 923 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,600 Speaker 1: And you know that's why again, just to bring this 924 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,279 Speaker 1: full circle, why I think the impeachment trial is so 925 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:13,279 Speaker 1: important no matter what the final vote is, because you know, 926 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: Trump's conduct in general, but especially between November three and 927 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,120 Speaker 1: January six, is going to go into the annimals as 928 00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,800 Speaker 1: so far beneath the worst conduct by the sit in 929 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: president in American history. And you know, the sooner that 930 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,080 Speaker 1: we are all clear on that and why that happened, 931 00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,160 Speaker 1: and how that happened, who helped to make that happen, 932 00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think, the sooner we can figure out 933 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,279 Speaker 1: how we got there and how how we got to 934 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,319 Speaker 1: Trump in the first place. Yeah, yeah, there's um, you 935 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,080 Speaker 1: were talking a little earlier about kind of the late 936 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,200 Speaker 1: sixties and about the hope that this is what we've 937 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,839 Speaker 1: seen recently is kind of a turning point, that will 938 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:49,440 Speaker 1: be a turning point. And I think I think a 939 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 1: lot almost every day to that that Hunter Thompson quote 940 00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 1: about standing on a hill outside of San Francisco and 941 00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,600 Speaker 1: you could see the high water line right where that 942 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,480 Speaker 1: that that wave of troll revolution broke and and and 943 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,680 Speaker 1: and and pulled back. And he was talking about like 944 00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:07,840 Speaker 1: all the hope of the sixties, the optimism that there 945 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,239 Speaker 1: would be fundamental change, the anti war movement, the civil 946 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,919 Speaker 1: rights movement, all this feeling that like things were really 947 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,200 Speaker 1: going to change, and then they didn't. Quite. They did 948 00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,359 Speaker 1: in some ways, but not to the extent that they 949 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,520 Speaker 1: needed to, not to the extent people thought they would. 950 00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: And I I guess my hope is that when we 951 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:28,279 Speaker 1: look back in fifteen years on, it's a similar kind 952 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 1: of it's it's kind of the opposite where it was 953 00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 1: a wave of ship that broke and rolled back, and 954 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,000 Speaker 1: we're in the we're in. We saw the high water 955 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,680 Speaker 1: mark of the ship, and now it's hopefully starting to 956 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:45,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. Recede, Yeah, and we're and we're a 957 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: whole lot of people whose lives had never previously depended 958 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:53,319 Speaker 1: upon having a function in government. Um right, we're we're 959 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,279 Speaker 1: punched in the face over and over again by what 960 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,600 Speaker 1: it meant to not have a government that could effectively 961 00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 1: handle a pandemic. Um. You know there are folks for 962 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,839 Speaker 1: whom that's always been a problem, but who for whom 963 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,919 Speaker 1: those problems have been obscured from elitist you know, sort 964 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,560 Speaker 1: of spaces. And I think you know COVID had this 965 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:15,320 Speaker 1: remarkable flattening effect, um in in driving home. Why actually 966 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,600 Speaker 1: having a competent, efficient governmance a good thing that hasn't 967 00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:22,279 Speaker 1: yet become an electoral issue? Um right. But I think 968 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,120 Speaker 1: it's just it is too soon, right to think that 969 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,239 Speaker 1: we've learned all the lessons of twenty I just want 970 00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,360 Speaker 1: to make sure we don't give up on trying to 971 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,840 Speaker 1: tell the story before we move on. I think that's 972 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,359 Speaker 1: a really awesome point and a great place to wrap 973 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:41,040 Speaker 1: this up. I know you've got other things to do today, 974 00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,520 Speaker 1: but we are so grateful that you took the time 975 00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:47,720 Speaker 1: to chat with us. This has been really, really informative. Um. 976 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,759 Speaker 1: Can you tell our listeners where they can find you 977 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,480 Speaker 1: online or check out your work for better for worse. 978 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,600 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Steve Underscore plotic UM and I 979 00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:01,480 Speaker 1: also Against my Better Judgment have two podcasts, so it 980 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,239 Speaker 1: really is UM. So Bobby Chesse I co host a 981 00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,440 Speaker 1: podcast called The National Security Law Podcast, which shockingly is 982 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,600 Speaker 1: about national security law, UM and some other stuff. UM. 983 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:12,600 Speaker 1: And my wife Karen and I Karen, who is by 984 00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,040 Speaker 1: far the better half. UM. We have a newish podcast 985 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 1: called in Local Parents about some of the unique challenges 986 00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,720 Speaker 1: of parenting and lawyer at the same time. UM. Interesting 987 00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,479 Speaker 1: from the perspective, not because we are experts in either 988 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,360 Speaker 1: of them, but because I actually think that there's some 989 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,440 Speaker 1: important utility and finding out that actually all of us 990 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,799 Speaker 1: who are parents have young children suck in different but 991 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,560 Speaker 1: equal ways. UM. And that it's you know, it's not us, 992 00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:41,239 Speaker 1: it's parenting. Yeah. Well yeah, you guys should definitely check 993 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,560 Speaker 1: that out. I'm not a parent, but it sounds interesting. 994 00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,680 Speaker 1: I'll check it out as well. UM. Maybe someday I'll 995 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,120 Speaker 1: be a parent and that will be helpful for me. 996 00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,719 Speaker 1: But thank you again so much for joining us, UM, 997 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,719 Speaker 1: and anytime you want to come back. We we'd love 998 00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,239 Speaker 1: to have you sorry, has a question. Yeah, I'm just 999 00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,120 Speaker 1: wondering if you had any sort of like we plug 1000 00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:00,879 Speaker 1: a lot of bail funds on the show, if there's 1001 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,480 Speaker 1: any kind of like related to the legal causes you 1002 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,279 Speaker 1: find valuable, any kind of like fundraiser or charity that 1003 00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,480 Speaker 1: you would you would like to highlight for our listeners 1004 00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,480 Speaker 1: to UM. I mean, I you know, at the moment, 1005 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,560 Speaker 1: I'm very focused on Texas specific issues on that front. 1006 00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,080 Speaker 1: So there's there's a great group in San Antonio called 1007 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,960 Speaker 1: Casa marian aa UM that does work with you know, 1008 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,040 Speaker 1: with without risk groups and with you know, sort of 1009 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,399 Speaker 1: finding housing and things like that. UM. The Texas Civil 1010 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,760 Speaker 1: Rights Project UM is actually a really really excellent group 1011 00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,560 Speaker 1: for you know, this kind of progressive work on the ground, 1012 00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,840 Speaker 1: grassroots level in Texas. It's an not bill battle, UM. 1013 00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:35,640 Speaker 1: But you know, don't just take my work, you know, 1014 00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,880 Speaker 1: do your own research, find find people who could use 1015 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:39,840 Speaker 1: the support. And even if the support is volunteer and 1016 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 1: phone banking, I mean, there are lots of ways to 1017 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,080 Speaker 1: contribute to to what's going on right now. Yeah, great, 1018 00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:50,200 Speaker 1: all right, thanks man, And that doesn't for us today 1019 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,560 Speaker 1: at Worst Year Pod. You can check us out online 1020 00:55:53,840 --> 00:56:01,360 Speaker 1: at Worst Year Pod, Gentleman, Worst Deer Pod, Get a cat, 1021 00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:06,840 Speaker 1: worst get a cat, Get a cat. I just is 1022 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,560 Speaker 1: this advice? Yeah it is. It's a new catchphrase. My 1023 00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,120 Speaker 1: cat is not with me at the moment, and I 1024 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:19,280 Speaker 1: miss having a cat. A cat. Everybody at everyone const 1025 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,600 Speaker 1: a fucking cat. What are you doing without having a cat. 1026 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,040 Speaker 1: You can't get a cat, Get a tamagotchi or a tamagotchi, 1027 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:29,040 Speaker 1: but ideally a cat. I'm sending Robert a tamagotchi today. 1028 00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:37,840 Speaker 1: Transition to a economy, Yeah, a friendship lanyard, Yeah, carrot 1029 00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:45,440 Speaker 1: sitting into the episode. See you guys next week. So 1030 00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:57,160 Speaker 1: I Worst Year Ever is a production of I Heart Radio. 1031 00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I 1032 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,680 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1033 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.