WEBVTT - My coworkers overshare -- and it gets really personal! 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:05.840 My colleagues. We'll stop commenting on everything I need. My 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:08.280 assistant rules his eyes at people and meeting. Why does 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:10.600 my coworker keep taking credit for all my ideas? Have 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:13.960 any wisdom for me? Hi? I'm Alison Green. Welcome to 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:17.320 the Aska Manager podcast, where I answer questions from listeners 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.280 about life at work, everything from what to say if 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:22.920 you're allergic to your coworkers perfume to what to do 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.360 if you drink too much at the company party. Let's 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:30.400 get started, Hi, and welcome to the show. Today. I'm 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:32.880 going to answer a bunch of shorter questions from people, 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.720 and the first question is from someone who works in 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:40.959 an office where people do way too much over sharing. Hi, Alison, 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:43.159 I've worked in the same office for over a year 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:44.960 and a half and I'm bathful at how much my 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.640 coworkers share. I've worked at several offices before and I've 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.880 had very open discussions, but nothing quite on this level. 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.080 To give you a snapshot, my office is open concept, 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.400 with the majority of us and cubicles and a few 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.160 of us sharing offices in other rooms. It's a out 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.200 ninety percent women, and the majority are in their early thirties, 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:05.039 so they're going through similar things when it comes to 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:08.319 marriage and children. This past year alone, one of my 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.399 co workers got married to had babies, and one had 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.360 a baby about a year ago. This has caused discussion 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.920 to always be about the female body and babies. I'm 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.360 fine with sharing about these moments and hearing all about 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.760 these milestones. However, I am not sure I need to 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.280 hear about every kind of breast pump, the specifics of 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.039 my coworkers bodies after birth, and associated issues related to pregnancy. 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.200 I understand that they may have questions for each other 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:34.960 as they go through certain things for the first time. However, 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.280 I now know that one of my co workers had 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.480 to go to a vaginal physical therapist because of the 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.920 condition of her reproductive organs post baby, and now has 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:45.520 to use keegel weights. Another husband's was not into the 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:49.520 Brazilian bikini actually got, and another kind of hates her husband. 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:51.320 One of my friends in the office has brought it 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.360 up to her supervisor, but since her supervisor is also 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.680 one of these people who overshares, nothing really happened. The 0:01:57.760 --> 0:01:59.680 few of us who aren't in this stage of life 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.800 feels super uncomfortable. If we walked in talking about how 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.320 much we drank over the weekend or what we did 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.480 in a nightclub, we would be seen in a negative light. 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:10.720 But if we talked about how our child is afraid 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.359 to use a toilet or that our breastar chiefs from breastfeeding, 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.680 it would be completely fine. As tempted as we are 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:19.840 to go to HR, it doesn't feel like a major 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.480 enough issue to bring up in our HR department. Is 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.600 a bit of a joke. Also, since it's the majority 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.120 of our office having these discussions, it would be really 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.200 obvious to figure out who complained. Are there any ways 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.440 we can reduce over sharing in a house before having 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.960 to take it up to someone higher. Thank you so much. 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:41.400 People are so fascinating with the things that they do 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:46.360 and don't have boundaries about and color you have somehow 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.120 landed in a nest of people with no boundaries at all, 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:53.320 it seems so. In general, I would say it's mostly 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:55.880 stuff that you want to try to address yourself rather 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.200 than escalating it to your manager to HR. There's one 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.480 exception to which I'm going to get to in a minute, 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:05.239 but in general, with interpersonal stuff like this, typically it's 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.600 something that you would address on your own, unless it's 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.240 at the point where it's really interfering with your ability 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.680 to do your job. Like if you had a client 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.040 in your office and your coworker was talking loudly about 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:19.280 her bikini wax, that's something that would be appropriate to 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.400 give your boss that heads up about because it's affecting 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.239 clients and affecting your work, you know. Although even then 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.560 I would still say talk to your coworker about it 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:28.639 yourself first. I mean, if it's a one time thing 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.480 that's not manager worthy, if it's a pattern, talked to 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.440 her about it yourself. If that doesn't work, then talk 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:37.440 to your boss. But the reason I would say try 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.240 talking to her about it yourself first is because first 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:42.960 that will often solve the problem without you needing to 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.360 involve your boss. And also because if it doesn't solve 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.280 it and you do need to talk to your manager, 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.200 it's going to look better that you've already tried to 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.720 handle it yourself. Your boss may ask you have you 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.280 tried talking to her about this directly, and you want 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.600 to be able to say yes. And then also from 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.240 your co workers perspective, it's annoying to have someone complained 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:05.480 to your boss when they didn't talk to you about 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.720 the issue first, So you want to start with the 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:12.200 people themselves. And if it's not stuff that is affecting 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.960 your work, if it's just annoying interpersonal weirdness, that's not 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.280 really stuff to take to your boss. There is an 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.200 exception to this, though, and that is if someone is 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:26.640 over sharing about sex specifically, and if having to listen 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.119 to sex talk at work is making you uncomfortable, because 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.600 that is getting into problematic legal territory for your employer, 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.960 because sexual harassment laws can be in play. Sexual harassment 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.560 isn't just one person targeting another person. I think a 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.200 lot of times people think that's all that it is. 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:44.880 It can also be that you're working in an environment 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:49.200 that's inappropriately sexualized and where you're subjected to a barrage 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:53.520 of unwelcome sexual discussion. So if something like that is happening, 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.320 your company has an interest in knowing about it and 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.599 shutting it down because otherwise they can be legally liable. 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.239 As for what to do here, you can try shutting 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.760 it down when it's happening, Like when one of those 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.520 conversations gets going, you could say, hey, this is more 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.080 graphic than I want to hear at work. Can we 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.680 keep this PG, or you could say, WHOA, that is 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.880 too much for me at work, Let's move on. So 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.240 sort of nudging people to realize, oh, there's people here 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:27.960 who might not be happy bystanders to this conversation. Now, 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.120 if you are actually working when this conversation is happening, 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.320 you have a stronger standing to say this, because you're 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.640 right to be able to focus on your work without 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:42.920 having that distracting conversation around you. Trumps there their right 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:47.480 to talk about vaginal physical therapy. But if it's a 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.599 conversation that's like more like something a conversation over lunch, 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.960 where it's more of a social context, if everyone else 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.760 at the table wants to be talking about post baby 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:00.440 body changes or so forth, it might be that you 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:02.440 just need to cut back on how often you're having 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:04.960 lunch with that group because they do have more freedom 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.640 with conversations and social settings. Although to be clear, that's 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.360 still a work context and there's still a line they 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.200 shouldn't cross. It just really depends on exactly what the 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.719 topic is and how graphic they're getting. But you may 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.279 just need to be armed with some phrases like wow, 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.719 too graphic for me, or so forth, something that you're 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.200 ready to say when the conversation veers in that direction, 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:29.440 that doesn't mean it will work. I mean, there are 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:31.680 definitely groups of people who do this kind of thing, 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.520 who think it's funny when someone objects, and we'll kind 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.200 of tease you about it and won't stop at all. 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.320 So so how effective this will be will depend on 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:42.680 your coworkers. But if you can frame it in terms 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:44.880 of like, hey, I'm trying to work over here, that 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:49.000 might help. But it is also true that if this 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.200 is the culture of your office, and since at least 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.640 one manager is apparently part of the problem too, this 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.080 might just be the culture there. And that doesn't mean 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.000 that you would need to put up with sexual harassment 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.400 if that's what we're happening, or sexually hostile work environment. 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:04.960 I mean, I want to be clear that the answer 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.200 to those things would not be, oh, it's just the 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.600 culture there. But assuming that it's not that, and that 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.520 it's really just people over sharing, there's probably not a 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:18.239 ton of recourse. Even if you did have good HR, 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.080 which you said that you don't, I don't think it 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.040 would be something that you would get a lot of 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.240 attraction on from them intervening on I mean a good 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.920 HR person would talk to that manager who's involved and 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.200 explain why she should be raining this in. But HR 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:35.360 also doesn't have the power to come in and just 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:39.040 insist that people change their conversational habits as long as 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.200 it's not something like harassment. And in your case, because 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.360 you said HR at your company is bad, that's probably 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:47.640 moot anyway. So the upshot here be armed with some 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.080 phrases that you can use to redirect the conversation. Emphasize 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.200 that you're trying to work. But that might be the 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.560 best that you can do with this group. Okay, let's 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:00.200 go to the next call. So I'm bill like a 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:03.600 new team to turn around late deliveries for a pretty 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:07.600 important internal customer to our business. So in the process, 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:11.080 I'm going to inherit a team member who's just he's 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.080 away from his desk for hours on his phone and 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.520 his computor at his desk. I walked by his desk 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.040 and I've seen him watching movies on his phone while 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.600 keeping his monitor alive with a spreadsheet or project plan 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.800 on the monitor. Um, he comes in at nine am, 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:32.640 takes a long lunch, leaves at two pm, and really, seriously, 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.400 that was just in the course of a typical week. 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.200 So in this guy's defense, he's pretty new to the 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.680 organization and he was never really coached by his manager. 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.720 His manager had been on vacation or was traveling for 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.560 business the majority of the time that he was here. 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.040 The person who was responsible for on boarding him was 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.240 moved to another team because he really couldn't handle the workload. 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.080 So I'm I'm really thinking you probably take up some 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.920 bad habits from that time. So you know what am 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.160 I going to do? Like, I feel like I'm going 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.280 to demonstrate the energy I expect. I'm going to give 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:13.480 tough but fair deadline, give him some weekly goals, ensure 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.840 that his passions are aligned to the work. But it's like, 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.880 do I give him the benefit of the doubt and 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.760 see if he needed just a more engaged manager, or 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.880 should I just start out addressing his behavior directly and 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:32.680 allowing him to start with clear expectations immediately. I just 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:35.600 don't know whether I should just face this head on 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:40.439 or let him evolve into the employee that I need. 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.520 What do you think maybe there's another way forward? I 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.680 don't know anyhow. Thank you very much for your time, 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.120 and I really hope that you have some great ideas 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:54.000 for me, and I'm sure you will thank you. You know, 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.960 I could argue this either way. There is an argument 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.600 to be made for addressing it right off the bat, 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.120 like right up front with him, so that he knows 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.400 that the bad work habits have been noticed and aren't okay. 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.320 But if I were you, I would give it a 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.240 little time to see what happens. Not months, not even weeks, 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.200 but like one week. See how that first week goes, 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.280 and if you notice any of those habits during that week, 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.400 address it right away. But who knows. I mean, it's 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.840 possible that the reason that he was slacking off so 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.800 much under the old manager was because they hadn't given 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:28.880 him much work to do or something like that. And 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.559 if that's the situation, and he wasn't doing much because 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.560 they hadn't delegated much to him, but he otherwise would 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:37.320 have been happy to be working if there was any 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.000 work to do, it's going to be pretty mortifying to 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.360 him and maybe I mean upsetting really to be called 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.200 on the carpet for that if it wasn't really within 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:48.120 his control, and it's going to make him feel like 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.960 he already has the strike with you, even though it 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.080 wasn't a situation of his own making. Now that's giving 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.199 him a huge amount of benefit of the doubt. But 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:59.960 but there are potential I mean, who knows, who knows 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.560 what was going on and why that slacking was happening, 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.600 and why that manager, his old manager wasn't intervening. So 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.320 I would give him that week, and during that week 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.080 I would watch pretty closely and be ready to step 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.760 in if you do notice anything problematic, But see how 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.920 it goes first. Um, if there wasn't some sort of 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:22.960 extenuating circumstance that puts his earlier behavior in a better light, 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.120 then presumably that's going to show up pretty soon for 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.960 you too, and you can address it very very head 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.360 on when you do. But give him that week and 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.959 see how it goes. We'll take a short break here 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.160 and be right back with a question about employers who 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.280 called references who were not on the reference list that 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:52.679 you gave them. I have applied for positions before and 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:57.319 been um given a heads up by colleagues that they 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:01.199 were contacted to serve as reference for me, even though 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.280 I hadn't listed them as references. You know that the 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.920 place of employment had seen somewhere that I had worked 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.200 with these people before and just contacted them out of 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.640 the blue. Luckily, they all had great things to say. 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:16.880 But I've also been on the other end of this 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.360 where I have been contacted as a reference not having 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.959 been listed, and um, the employer has been transparent about 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.360 that that they were just sort of calling to see 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:31.040 what I thought of this candidate. Is this okay? Is 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:37.079 there's something that happens a lot, and if so, is it? Um? 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:41.160 Is it okay? Or does a candidate have the right 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.760 to control who gives them a reference when they apply somewhere? 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.959 Thanks so much? You are talking about what are known 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.080 as off list references a meeting. They are going off 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.760 the list that you provided, and they're definitely common. From 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.640 an employer point of view, It's pretty likely that when 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.240 a candidate hands over a list and says, oh, here 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.440 are my references, you can contact these people about me, 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.560 it's pretty likely that they know that those are people 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.400 who will say good things about them, and maybe that's 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.080 going to give you a full picture of who they 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.079 are as an employee, but maybe not, because if someone 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.040 is kind of a not great employee, they may have 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:24.600 sort of hands selected the very few people who will 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.719 say something positive, So some employers won't always stick to 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.920 the list that you give for exactly that reason. I 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.520 will tell you what I personally do when I check references. 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.520 When someone gives me a reference list, I really pay 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.360 attention to who they have chosen to put on there. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.280 If it's like their last three managers, then great, that's 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:45.720 pretty standard. It doesn't look like they're trying to hide anything. 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.440 But if there's only one manager from like a decade ago, 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.240 and all the more recent people are peers or other 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.440 people who didn't manage them, I'm going to wonder why 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.599 what's going on there that they're not offering up any managers, 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:02.760 And I'm just going to directly ask, hey, could you 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:04.800 put me in touch with your last couple of managers. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.280 The exception to that is for their current job. Of course, 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.439 I'm not going to contact your boss at a job 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:12.600 that you're still working at if you haven't given notice yet, 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.120 because they could put your job in jeopardy. But if 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:17.720 you have a few previous jobs before your current one 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.160 and none of those managers are on the list, I'm 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:21.920 gonna wonder why, and I'm going to ask if I 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.720 can talk to them, and when I coach managers, I 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.080 tell them they should be doing that too, because when 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.040 you are checking references, first of all, you really want 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.680 to get a full picture of someone, and you really 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:38.920 want to talk to their managers, because managers just often 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.520 have a different vantage point on someone's work, different than 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.520 what other references might have for them, because it was 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:48.000 their job to assess it, and often they see different things. 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.480 And so if I got a reference list with few 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.000 or no managers, I want to go digging into why. 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.360 But the other thing that I do, and that a 0:14:56.360 --> 0:15:00.200 lot of employers do, is if I know someone who 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.040 has worked with the candidate before, I'm going to contact 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:05.480 that person about them, even if their name is not 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.960 on that official reference list um whether it was their 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.320 boss or a peer or whoever it might have been. 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.520 If I know someone whose judgment I trust, who's worked 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.320 with you before, I'm absolutely going to reach out to 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.720 them and get their take. And that type of informal 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.760 reference checking is super common, where you have mutual connections 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.920 and they get contacted about you. There is another type 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.880 of off list reference checking that some employers do, although 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.760 it is less common. That's where they're reaching out to 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:37.560 people not in your reference list and who also are 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.400 not mutual connections, So they're just like calling up your 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.600 last employer and asking about you. And when they talked 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:48.040 to people, they might say something like, is there anyone 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.840 else who Jane worked closely with who you would recommend 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.400 that I talked to? And then they're calling those people. 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.600 That's a lot less common. That's a very very thorough 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:02.040 kind of check, but it does happen. Now. You also asked, 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.640 does the candidate have the right to control he's giving 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:06.680 them a reference? And the answer to that is no, 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.360 at least in the US. I can't speak to other countries, 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.280 But in the US an employer can seek out references 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.120 for you from pretty much anyone they want. But the 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:18.800 informal ones where they're just talking to mutual connections, that's 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.600 the most frequent type of off list reference. And that's 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.640 just pretty basic info sharing. You know, Hey, I see 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:26.480 used to work with Jane Smith. I'm thinking about her 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:30.120 for a job. What can you tell me? Okay, let's 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:31.880 go to the next call, And before we do, I 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.080 want to explain some of the terminology that you're going 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.040 to hear this color using. You will hear her refer 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.320 to people who are working five eights, which means five 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.920 eight hour days each week, and four tens, which means 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.960 for ten hour days each week. Okay, here is the call, 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:51.640 Hello Wales, and one of my direct reports is the 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.080 manager of a group of fifteen people. Proximately eight years ago, 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.720 before I was around, this group of fifteen was much 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.080 smaller at around eight or nine and the work was 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.720 much less intense. As an experiment, the opportunity was given 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.200 to the staff to work four ten hour shifts rather 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.200 than the usual five eights. This worked well for a while. 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.919 Now the team has grown, and has mentioned above, the 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.400 scope and intensity of the work has also increased. Currently 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.880 six people are on the modified four by ten schedule, 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:21.320 with the rest of the team providing coverage for absences. 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:23.720 I should note that we are a seven day week 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.600 operation to some extent, with weekend schedules being covered by 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:28.680 a skeleton crew made up of a mixture of folks 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.320 who have a staggered work week, and by overtime shifts 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.600 by the standard Monday through Friday employees. As we've grown 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.479 and expanded, the four by ten shifts and the coverage 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.960 concerns they cause have become an increasing problem. After a time, 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.639 analysis and other considerations did not justify hiring additional staff. 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.639 My report, the group's manager, and I have come to 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.919 the conclusion that we need to pull everyone back to 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.120 five eighths in order to consure adequate coverage. This has 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.240 been suggested in the past by members of the team 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:57.879 currently on the five eight schedule. Too much wailing and 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.919 gnashing of teeth of the current four by ten and 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:02.760 it's to the point where the business needs are showing 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.000 us that we really do need to make this change. 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:06.960 We're trying to be as kind as we can and 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.280 the way that we announce this transition, but are struggling 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.600 with the message, the timing, and the lead up to 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.600 the implementation. Any advice on how to approach this. I 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:16.640 would like to make it as straightforward and drama free 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.200 as possible, and I'm aware that some folks may quit 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.240 over this change, which would put us even more behind 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:25.280 the eight ball we while we try to re stuff afterward. Yeah, 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.879 this is tough for a lot of people working for 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.680 ten hour days and getting three day weekends every week 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.480 can be a really significant benefit, and it could be 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.880 a blow to hear that that is changing. I think 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.600 you're right to prepare for the possibility that some people 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.320 make quit over it, but that's okay. People need to 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.360 do what's best for them. What you want to avoid 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.760 is people rage, quitting, being angry at how it's handled, 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.959 or feeling like they weren't heard. If people quit, you 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.960 want them doing it from the place of rational decision making, 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.520 not irritation. So the best thing that you can do 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.439 is to be really transparent about what's going on. Be 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.480 open with people about the reasons for the change, the 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:09.040 alternatives that you considered instead of this, and why you 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.440 ultimately did pick this as the best solution. And tell 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.840 people that you know that this is a major change, 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.800 that you appreciate what a benefit the old schedule was, 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:20.840 and that if there were alternatives, you would have taken them, 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.280 but in this case, switching back to five eights is 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:28.000 what made sense because of Blink. And tell people that 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.040 you get it's a blow, and that you're available to 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:33.520 answer questions or talk about concerns they might have, and 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.120 if you can give people as much of a heads 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.959 up as possible before that change happens, because people may 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.640 have childcare schedules to work out or other scheduling issues 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.120 that they'll need some lead time to address. You don't 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:48.240 want to spring it on them without much notice. And 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:50.960 of course, if people do tell you that they're rethinking 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.680 whether the job will still make sense for them, don't 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.520 penalize them for telling you that. Let them know that 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.359 you understand and that you hope they'll stay, but that 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:03.760 you support them in doing what's best for them. Beyond that, 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.240 though there's not a ton you can do, people are 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.199 going to feel how they feel, and some might decide 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:12.360 that this changes the calculation of whether the job still 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.280 makes sense for them, And that's okay as long as 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.040 you're open and transparent and hear people out about their 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:22.119 concerns and genuinely listen with an open mind and be 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.440 willing to be flexible where you can. That's about all 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:28.040 you can do to manage a tough situation. Well, but 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:30.960 those things will go a long way. The difference between 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.119 doing those things and not doing them is pretty significant. 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.920 We'll do a final break care and when we come back, 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.880 we have an update from a recent caller who came 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:53.359 on the show. Hi, Alison, I'm a fairly senior lawyer 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:57.399 at a large law firm on a partner truck and 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:03.280