1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Hi, it's Ukshat. We are on the cusp of COP 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: twenty nine and the US election, and so we wanted 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: to bring you a favorite past episode that feels particularly 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: timely right now, even though it's looking at events that 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: happened nearly thirty years ago. We made the show in July. 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: It's about a play that dramatizes the nineteen ninety seven 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: climate summit in Kyoto. That meeting COP three was historic 8 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: for reasons you'll hear. COP twenty nine, taking place in 9 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: Azerbaijan the week after next is likely to be historic too. 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: One thing we'll be watching for at COP twenty nine 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: is what direction the US takes after its people have 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: elected a new president. If that president is Donald Trump, 13 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: it could have disastrous consequences for global climate diplomacy. You 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: might remember what my colleague Gendiluhi told me about this 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: last month. 16 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 2: Trump could actually go further and abandoned the UNF Triple C, 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 2: the Framework Convention on Climate Change that underpins it. And 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 2: if leaving Paris is a potentially temporary blow to climate diplomacy, 19 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 2: then leaving the UNF Triple C would be a figurative 20 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 2: bomb and climate diplomacy with years of fallout and what's 21 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: you know interesting about this is truly the potentially long 22 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: repercussions for the US and for the world. 23 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: You can find a link to that episode in the 24 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: show notes. And by the way, next week we'll be 25 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: putting out our episode on Friday instead of Thursday because 26 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: there's a big election happening. For now, enjoy the episode 27 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: about Kyoto. Welcome to Zero. I am actadrati. This week 28 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: climate negotiations as entertainment. This sentence. Countries are urged to 29 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,279 Speaker 1: take immediate actions to control the risks of climate change. 30 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: Surely we can all agree on this. 31 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 3: No mean countries are urged. I'm sorry it is urgent. 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: I feel urged. 33 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: I don't feel urged. 34 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: Do you feel urged? 35 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 3: I don't feel urgent? Couraged? 36 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: Second, urged is a red line for us. Courage invited, 37 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: of course, No, we should all feel urged. 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 3: Imediate got the media. Countries are urged to take actions 39 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 3: to control the risk of climate What. 40 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: Are these actions? 41 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 4: An idealistic promise made today could close a factory in 42 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 4: Detroit tomorrow. 43 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 3: At this with ass on actions that would be economically 44 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 3: beneficial as well. 45 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 5: No regrets. 46 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: We second that choice. The line or whatever is left 47 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: of It is a great. 48 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 6: A question for you, Actually, how many cops have you 49 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 6: been to? 50 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: Three? The last three? 51 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 6: They sound like marathon events. 52 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 3: Yeah they are. 53 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: They are two weeks long and almost always overrun, and 54 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: everything gets shut down by the last few days and 55 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: you're out of coffee and energy and you're exhausted. It's 56 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: sort of all cops, I think, not just the last three. 57 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,399 Speaker 6: It sounds a little drudgerous to be honest. I mean, 58 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 6: I'm not a fan of a very long meeting, so 59 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 6: I have to admit. When I heard that the Royal 60 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 6: Shakespeare Company was putting on a new play about Cop three, 61 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 6: which was held in Kyoto, I was very intrigued, but 62 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 6: also felt a little bit of trepidation about what it 63 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 6: is we would be sitting through. 64 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. When I was told that there is 65 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: a play about the Kyoto Protocol, I was surprised. You know, 66 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: there is a lot of drama at these places. It's 67 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: high stakes. All countries are involved, the fate of the 68 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: planet is involved. But it is really boring in the 69 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: fact that it's negotiations done over text and over words 70 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: that most people don't understand, and it's all a bit chaotic, 71 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: and so how do you make that entertaining? That was 72 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: the question to me when I heard there was a 73 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: play about it. 74 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 6: Today's episode is all about the play. We'll be hearing 75 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 6: from the director and one of the actors, and also 76 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 6: from someone who attended those Kyoto negotiations in nineteen nine 77 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 6: twenty seven. And yeah, it was long, but it didn't 78 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 6: feel too long. I thought part of what made it 79 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 6: compelling was the way it was staged. The stage is 80 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 6: shaped like a conference table. Members of the audience sit 81 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 6: around it, so they're kind of made to feel like 82 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 6: they're part of the negotiations. 83 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: The playwrights had to figure out how to shrink tenures 84 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: of history and two weeks of negotiations into a couple 85 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: of hours, and they had to do it in a 86 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: fixed setting. So the choice of the stage was important, 87 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: and I asked one of the plays directors, Justin Martin, 88 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: about why the stage was shaped that way. 89 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 5: It's a conference table in which a lot of the 90 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 5: action happens around it, within the audience, but also yeah, 91 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 5: on top of the conference table. But as soon as 92 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 5: you put the audience in it, it has an inherent chaos 93 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 5: to it because they're in and around everything, and there 94 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 5: is a certain joy to the way in which the 95 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,239 Speaker 5: actors move in and out around an audience. 96 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 6: There is definitely a bit of joyful chaos to the 97 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 6: whole thing, and it seemed to me, someone who's not 98 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 6: been to a cop before, that it probably did give 99 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 6: a reasonable approximation of what it's like when there's two 100 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 6: hundred different countries present trying to all agree on very 101 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 6: specific wording around how to take action on climate change. 102 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 6: The play really builds up to the end of the 103 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 6: Kyoto negotiation period where they reach an agreement in real life, 104 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 6: what did they actually agree on and why was it remarkable? 105 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: Well, by nineteen ninety seven, it was clear that climate 106 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: change is the problem that all countries have to deal with, 107 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: but rich, industrialized nations had contributed to the problem the most, 108 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 1: and the Cute Protocol was an agreement for all countries, 109 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: but developed countries signed up to legally binding targets to 110 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: reduce emissions over the next couple of decades, whereas developing 111 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: countries were exempt. 112 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 6: One thing I noticed while working on this episode is 113 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 6: that to this day, people still debate the significance of Kyoto, 114 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 6: like how monumental it was because it was a big breakthrough, 115 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 6: but it wasn't nearly as decisive or successful as it 116 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 6: could have been. Back in the US Congress never ratified 117 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 6: the Kyoto Protocol, the US never was fully on board, and. 118 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: The countries that did sign up to those targets didn't 119 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: have particularly ambitious targets. Japan, for example, had to reduce 120 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: its emissions by six percent by twenty twelve relative to 121 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety levels. Today, all countries have to reduce emissions 122 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: by forty three percent by twenty thirty, So the scales 123 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: were completely different. And yet some countries like the UK 124 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: and European Union were able to achieve those targets quite easily. 125 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: Other countries like Japan still didn't meet them. 126 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 6: Can you make the case, though, that what was agreed 127 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 6: and Kyoto did lay the groundwork for the twenty fifteen 128 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 6: Paris Agreement. Is that fair to say? 129 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: All COP meetings sort of build up on each other, 130 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: But there are more significant COP meetings and Kyoto was 131 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: one of them. It was the first time you saw 132 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: the power of country blocks coming together in negotiations. So 133 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: island nations formed an alliance, and that alliance has grown 134 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: in size and was crucial at the Paris Agreement, where 135 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: the target for one point five degrees celsius would not 136 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: have happened had island nations not grouped together and argued 137 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: for that target to exist. There were other technical things 138 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: that came from Kyoto, such as carbon markets, which have 139 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: remained in agreements. There is a carbon market framework inside 140 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: the Paris Agreement. And then there were forsil fuel lobbyists 141 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: all the way from the start of climate negotiations till now. 142 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, we were at COP twenty eight in Dubai, 143 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: a country that built its wealth on oil and gas, 144 00:07:54,240 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: and that created so much controversy going into those negotiations. 145 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 6: That's why you had mixed feelings about the choice of 146 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 6: the two writers on the play, Joe Robertson and Joe Murphy, 147 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 6: to make the narrator Don Pearlman, who's famously a lobbyist 148 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 6: working for fossil fuel companies, someone who Despiegel called the 149 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 6: high Priest of the carbon Club. Let's hear a bit 150 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 6: of his opening monologue. 151 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 3: Runaway inflation, culture wars, real wars, race riots, fake news, 152 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 3: insane insurrections, global pandemics, and on top of all of that, 153 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 3: a planet in literal meltdown. And if you're a guy 154 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 3: like me looking at a time like now, the main 155 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 3: thing you think is wow, Man, the nineteen nineties were 156 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 3: freaking glorious. Now. I know what people like you think 157 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 3: of lawyers like me. But I'm the only one who 158 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 3: can tell this story because I'm the only one who 159 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 3: was there. 160 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 6: Don Perlman died in two thousand and five, but the 161 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 6: writers spoke to his family while researching the play, and 162 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 6: I thought they made him a really compelling, three dimensional character, 163 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 6: not just a cartoon villain. How familiar were you with 164 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 6: Peerlman before you saw the play? 165 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: Not very much. It did come up in a conversation 166 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: I had with the former US Vice President Al Gore 167 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: at COP twenty eight last year, who remembered very clearly 168 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: the kind of role that Don played. 169 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 7: There was a very famous in those days, very famous 170 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 7: cole lobbyist from the United States named Don Pearlman. Never 171 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 7: speak ill of the departed, but he was extremely influential, 172 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 7: really legendary, working hand in glove with the Saudi Arabian delegation. 173 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 6: I feel like legendary is an understatement. There After we 174 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 6: saw the play, I was still really curious about what 175 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 6: Don was like in real life, and so I called 176 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 6: up someone who had crossed paths with him at several 177 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 6: climate negotiations, including that cop in Kyoto. 178 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 4: So I started actually on another the treaty, the treaty 179 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 4: to protect the ol zone layer. It's called the Montreal Protocol. 180 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 4: That's where I first bumped into Don Perlman. 181 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 6: Actually, David Donagher is now a strategist with the National 182 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 6: Resource Defense Council. 183 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 4: And then I worked in the Clinton administration and I 184 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 4: actually was part of the US negotiating team for the 185 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 4: Kyoto protocol, and he was there, always standing in the 186 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 4: corner smoking. You would see him wait for the Saudi delegate. 187 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 4: Al Saban represented OPEK Saudi Arabia, same goals. They work together. 188 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 6: In the play, A lot of the drama is around 189 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 6: these different representatives arguing about the exact wording that everyone 190 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 6: can agree on. 191 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, very much. So, I mean, going into every cop, 192 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: we tell listeners and readers this is what US reporters 193 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: are going to have to deal with when we get 194 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: to cops. It's just going to be words and pages, 195 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: usually in square brackets, which are for not yet agreed, 196 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: and there will be a lot of back in fourth 197 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: on those words. And the way agreements come about is 198 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: fascinating because it's so many countries, even if it's country blocks, 199 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: they have really different desires, and yet they have to 200 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: agree on those same words. In all the cops I've seen, 201 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: and I think it's true of all cops in general, 202 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: agreement is partly reached through compromise, but also through exhaustion. 203 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: You know, people run out of coffee and coke and food, 204 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: and everything starts to shut down, and people's planes are leaving, 205 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: and you have to agree on something because this is 206 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: such an important problem and you cannot not do anything. 207 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what David remembered too. 208 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 4: We went all night and we finally achieved an agreement. 209 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 4: And by the way, this is one they had run 210 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 4: out of Coca cola, I mean areas on fumes and anyway, 211 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,599 Speaker 4: about five or six in the morning, we agreed on 212 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 4: the Kyoto Protocol. I remember a Washington Post word called 213 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 4: me my punchline. This is a good day to adopt 214 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 4: a treaty, but a bad day to operate heavy machinery. 215 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 6: David hasn't seen the play at the moment. You can 216 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 6: only see it in Stratford upon Avon until the thirteenth 217 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 6: of July. But because he was there at the negotiations 218 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 6: in Kyoto, I wanted to know what he thought about 219 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 6: Don's presence and lasting impact on the whole agreement. 220 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 4: He was kind of an outsized personality because even though 221 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 4: he was quiet, because he just stood there and smoked 222 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 4: and glowered and muttered. So he became a symbol of 223 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 4: the bad actor. But there are hundreds of them. You 224 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 4: could say that the legacy of Don Perlman is the 225 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 4: capture of the Republican Party by the fossil fuel industry. 226 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: Clearly, Don Pulman was a big character, and he was 227 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: a big character not just in Kyoto, but in negotiations 228 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: all the way through the nineties. But it was we 229 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: had to me that the playwrights chose him not just 230 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: to be a character but also the narrator. So you 231 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: had this guy who was in his real life showing 232 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: disagreement where you needed agreement, and then being the narrator 233 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: telling you why his attempts to sew disagreement weren't quite working. 234 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: And I felt that was a little disjointed. But you know, 235 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: playwrights have a difficult job. I've never written a play 236 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: it was entertaining. 237 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 6: I can see where you're coming from as someone who 238 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 6: still had their climate reporter had on even while in 239 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 6: the theater. To me, I thought, there are some really 240 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 6: smart reasons why they had him as a main character, 241 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 6: and it pulled me in a little more into the 242 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 6: human drama. 243 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: I certainly enjoyed the actor who played Don Peerlman, and 244 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: after the break we'll have a conversation with that actor, 245 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: Stephen Kunkin. By the way, if you're enjoying this episode, 246 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show 247 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: on Spotify or Apple. It helps other listeners find it. 248 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 6: The character of Don Pearlman, as you heard, was central 249 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 6: to the drama leading up to the Kyoto Protocol, both 250 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 6: in real life and in the play. In this production, 251 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 6: he's larger than life, and a lot of that has 252 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 6: to do with the way actor Stephen counkan inhabits the role. 253 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 6: Auction caught up with Stephen the morning after Kyoto's opening night. 254 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 6: They spoke in the offices of the Royal Shakespeare Company 255 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 6: in Stratford upon Avon. 256 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: You play the role of Don Perlman, the lawyer working 257 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: for the Seven Sisters, the Big ol Companies, and later 258 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: for Saudi Arabia. He's someone climate people are very critical of. 259 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: When I spoke with Al Gore last year, he called 260 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: him legendary and not in a nice way. Over the 261 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: span of many years, his job was to impede, to 262 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: slow down, to water down, or just really thwart any 263 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: possible meaningful action from being taken on climate change. Had 264 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: you heard of Don Pullman before you read Display? And 265 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: what made you say yes? 266 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 3: I had not heard of Don Pulman before this play, 267 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 3: and I think that's it's that's not an accident. I 268 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 3: think Don very much lived in the shadows and was 269 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 3: most comfortable doing his work there. You know, coming to 270 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 3: the process of doing Don, it came out of a 271 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 3: real desire to want to reconnect as an artist to 272 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 3: doing things that felt important. That we're challenging ideas and 273 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 3: concepts that I was struggling with in my own life, 274 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 3: and you know, we're walking through such a fractured time 275 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 3: right now, and I really wanted to try to do 276 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: something that helped me move my own understanding of why 277 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 3: it was impossible to connect with family members or friends 278 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 3: who had different political ideas or different social valuations on 279 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 3: things that I was very, very sure about. And you know, 280 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 3: one of the responsibilities you have as an actor is 281 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 3: to find empathy for the characters that you play. And 282 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 3: I felt like when I read Don, that we weren't 283 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 3: going to do a hit job on Don Perlman. I 284 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 3: think that's an easy thing to do, is to shoot 285 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: fish in a barrel. If you want to do that, 286 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 3: I think you're just preaching, basically to the choir. And 287 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: so I wanted to find out what about Don made 288 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 3: sense to me, because that seems to me in this 289 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 3: moment to be the way that we can move forward 290 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 3: is to try to find commonality with the people that 291 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 3: we don't see eye to eye with. And the most 292 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 3: interesting thing I've sort of discovered about Don is the 293 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 3: same thing that lawyers often do, which is they provide 294 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 3: the best defense for often what from the outside world 295 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 3: we find reprehensible. You're only ever as good as the 296 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: strongest defense, and Don was providing a very strong defense 297 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 3: for the Seven Sisters, and there is a lot of 298 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 3: ideology in there. It's been very very interesting. I've I've 299 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 3: ended up, you know, I've spoken a bit with his son, 300 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 3: and he's become much more human in my mind and 301 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 3: three dimensional. 302 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: Now the writers of the play made a choice to 303 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: not just center the play around Don's character, your character. 304 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: Terrible choice, terrible, terrible, But they also made Don the narrator. 305 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: Why was that choice made? Because you flipped between these 306 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 1: two roles, one who is dedicated to spoiling any agreement 307 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: versus one who is observing an agreement form despite your attempts. 308 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: And as a viewer, that was the only thing I 309 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: was a little jarred about. 310 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 3: I mean, I personally think that this play is inert 311 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 3: if you have ralestrata as as your narrator, if you 312 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 3: have someone who not because he wasn't a markable human 313 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 3: being and had agency and the right to tell the story. 314 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 3: But what is compelling about this narrative is putting it 315 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 3: in the hands of the person who didn't want this 316 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 3: to go the way that it went. And for me, 317 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 3: that's the kind of the brilliant moment they the eureka moment. 318 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 3: Otherwise otherwise it in some ways, it kind of becomes 319 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 3: a jingoistic and I don't I don't want it to 320 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 3: be that I've always felt and I know that they 321 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 3: feel that they want this to be an even handed 322 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 3: look at what this time was and I think Don 323 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 3: is vital in telling that story. 324 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: So do you think of Pullman as a bad actor 325 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: in moral terms or just a consummate strategist, someone who's 326 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: really good at the politics and game theory, just a 327 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: very good lawyer. 328 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 3: I think it's a really gray area on how one 329 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 3: splits that atom. He works in the gray area because 330 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 3: you know, as we discussed in the play, it's all 331 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 3: about language, you know. I think the big question was 332 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 3: what did Don know? And when did Don know it? 333 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 3: And then once you know that, what do you do 334 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 3: that information? I still think that everybody deserves the strongest defense, 335 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 3: and hopefully, you know, the policy that can be made 336 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 3: against a strong defense will last time as opposed to 337 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 3: just being watered down. 338 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: Now, Don died in two thousand and five. He was 339 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,719 Speaker 1: a chainsmoker. I'm going to go and do a few spoilers, 340 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: but the last scenes are him on his deathbed and 341 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 1: his wife talking about him as a person. Because as 342 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: the writers the two Joe's figured this out, they figured 343 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: it out through reading about him, but also through meeting 344 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: his family, his wife and then son. But all through this, 345 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: what do you think Dawn's character is? Is it a tragedy? 346 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 3: I think for Don, it's a bit of an adventure story. 347 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 3: You know, here's a guy who was doing a very 348 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 3: specific thing in the Department of Energy under the Reagan administration, 349 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 3: and he comes out of that period of time looking 350 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 3: for new purpose. And you know, when climate policy was 351 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 3: first being written, it was, as Don says in the play, 352 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 3: could be seen as a voluntary redistribution of wealth as 353 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 3: countries who had a bigger claim to more immediate concerns 354 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 3: suddenly we're, you know, tying up Western civilization again, to 355 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 3: quote the play in a straight jacket. And I think 356 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 3: he worked very, very hard to find a rugged way through. 357 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 3: And I go back to this discussion I had with 358 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 3: family a long time ago where I was sitting at 359 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 3: a table. I wasn't long out of graduate school of Julliard, 360 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 3: where I just spent four years studying Shakespeare, and I 361 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 3: sat down with my family, sort of distant family, who 362 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 3: were lawyers, all lawyers, who wanted to debate whether Shakespeare 363 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 3: was of any value anymore. It bore no relevance to 364 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 3: modern society. Most people couldn't understand it. They felt most 365 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 3: people they didn't like it, and they pretended that they 366 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 3: liked it, and most people would rather see a modern play, 367 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 3: So what was the actual purpose of Shakespeare? And sitting 368 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 3: amongst this these legal minds, I found myself sort of 369 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 3: devoid of any good, any good defense for Shakespeare. But 370 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 3: they took such an incredible joy in sort of breaking 371 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 3: down you know what I think would be widely accepted 372 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 3: as the great you know writer in the English language. 373 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 3: And there's that mind that I don't know that I possessed, 374 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 3: that kind of literal mind to sort of when everyone 375 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 3: else says black, prove that it's white. And that to 376 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 3: me has a lot about what Don does in this play. 377 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 3: And it's very, very interesting. It's very heavy to step 378 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 3: into that world where you know that you are the 379 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 3: one person who sees something in one way and can 380 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 3: manipulate people to walk in that direction. 381 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: So there is a universality to his character in some sense, 382 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: which is to say, there are Don Pulman's in the past, 383 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: there are Don Pulman's in the present, and there will 384 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: be Don Pulman's in the future. Who would you characterize 385 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: as the Don Pulmans of today? 386 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I mean, you know, it's funny. Just the 387 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: other night I came home from the show, and it 388 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 3: was really I had a lot of energy and stupidly 389 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 3: was doom scrolling through Instagram and found some sort of 390 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 3: friend who who has gotten in a very different political 391 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 3: way than I have. And I don't know why. I 392 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 3: don't usually answer people on Instagram. I don't usually engage 393 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 3: in political discourse online. But for this whatever reason, is 394 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 3: probably because Don Perlman was still strong in my in 395 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 3: my engine. I got into a you know, one thirty 396 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: am because of the time difference fight with this with 397 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 3: this friend. And you know, Don Perlman's exist on both sides. 398 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 3: You know, the people who are in our country who 399 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 3: are watching Fox News think that the Don Perlman's were 400 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 3: on CNN, and the people who were watching CNN think 401 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 3: that the Don Perlman's are on Fox News. And in Bloomberg, 402 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 3: I think is much more right down the middle. It's 403 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 3: very very fair. So but yeah, I mean they're you know, 404 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: punditry has become the place I think a lot of 405 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 3: the Don Perlmans live because so much policy is now 406 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 3: made in the public, in the social media, really in 407 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 3: the social media realm, where people's opinions start to really 408 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 3: shape and shift. And so if you can get to 409 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 3: them early, even long before they get to a voting booth. 410 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 3: You can get it just by putting up a fake 411 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 3: viral video, or you can put out a factoid that shapes, 412 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 3: you know, a movement. So I'm it's hard to put 413 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 3: my finger on it. I wouldn't say that it's on 414 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 3: one side or the other. I mean, I think it's 415 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 3: just the it's the art of manipulation, and you know 416 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 3: that's it's it's everywhere. 417 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: What do you hope the audience is left with at 418 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: the end of the performance. 419 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 3: The biggest thing that I have found, and I discovered 420 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 3: this in sort of like this aha moment that happened 421 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 3: when we were still rehearsing in London and we got 422 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 3: to the big scene in this play. And you know, 423 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: it's not a spoiler because I think we can all 424 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,719 Speaker 3: read the history of what happened in Kyoto. Although that 425 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 3: history is, you know, malleable if you look at it 426 00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 3: through the lens of time. But the process of agreement 427 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 3: ultimately seems to me not to be intellectual. It's emotional 428 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 3: and I've found that incredibly hopeful and inspiring. That you know, 429 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 3: you take a brilliant mind like Don Perlman, who could 430 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 3: dot every iron, cross every tee and make every cow 431 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 3: dance on the head of a pin. But at the 432 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 3: end of the day, if the emotional commitment to get 433 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 3: something done outweighs that intellectual commitment, things can change. And 434 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 3: we're in this moment where I think we feel powerless 435 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 3: to make change because things don't make sense. The problems 436 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 3: of climate change are so massive and seem like they're 437 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 3: just there's there's nothing we can do. And all really 438 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 3: takes is is the belief and the hope that we 439 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 3: can do something and that can actually be the one 440 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 3: thing that moves the ball across the line. So that's 441 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 3: that's what I hope people take away, that there is 442 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 3: there is power or in one's belief. 443 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: Thank you, Steven, Thank you for listening to zero and 444 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: for those who stayed till the end. Here is the 445 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: sound of the week. 446 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 8: Will recommend this by let me recommend it, will recommend 447 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 8: the adoption of this protocol to the conference by unanimity. 448 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: That is the sound of the Kyoto Protocol being agreed 449 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: on in nineteen ninety seven, recorded on AVHS tape using 450 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: electrical energy converted into magnetic energy, then converted back to 451 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: Electrical Energy as it was uploaded to YouTube by the 452 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: United Nations. If you liked this episode, please take a 453 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: moment to rate or review the show on Apple, podcast 454 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or with 455 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,239 Speaker 1: someone who likes going to theater. You can get in 456 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer 457 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: is Mighty Lee Rau. Bloomberg's Head of podcast is Saigebauman 458 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: and Head of Talk is Brendan newnham. Our theme music 459 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to Kira Bindrim, Alicia Clanton, 460 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: Anamazarakis and the Royal Shakespeare Company. I am Akshatrati Back soon.