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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four forty nine of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. From wellness products

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Speaker 1: to fragrances to the haircare many of us grew abusing.

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Speaker 1: Black women are routinely exposed to harmful chemicals and products

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Speaker 1: marketed directly to us. So what do we do when

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Speaker 1: our everyday routines are shaped by systems that often put

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Speaker 1: our health at risk. These exposures don't happen in isolation.

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Speaker 1: They build over time, contributing to serious and sometimes chronic

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Speaker 1: health conditions that are deeply tied to environmental racism at

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Speaker 1: a systemic level, But there are changes in solutions we

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Speaker 1: can implement to curve these risks that contribute to a healthier,

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Speaker 1: longer life. Here to break all of this down is

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Speaker 1: doctor Tamra James Todd, epidemiologist and Professor of Environmental Reproductive

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Speaker 1: Epidemiology at Harvard University. Doctor j James Todd directs the

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Speaker 1: Environmental Reproductive Justice Lab, where she studies how chemicals and

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Speaker 1: consumer products and our broader environment impact Black women's health

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Speaker 1: across the lifespan. Her work not only exposes the inequities

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Speaker 1: in these systems, but put a focus on empowering communities

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Speaker 1: with the knowledge and tools to reduce risk of harm. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're unpacking what environmental racism really looks like, how it

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Speaker 1: shows up in the products we use every day, and

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Speaker 1: what it will take to protect Black women's health. If

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Speaker 1: something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share

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Speaker 1: with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in

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Speaker 1: session or join us over in our Patreon To talk

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Speaker 1: more about the episode. You can join us at Community

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Speaker 1: dot Therapy from blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today, doctor James Todd.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to

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Speaker 2: be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. So I wonder if you can take

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Speaker 1: us back to little U and think back too. Was

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Speaker 1: there like a memory that you have of, maybe before

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Speaker 1: you were officially a scientist, of noticing something different in

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Speaker 1: the environment, or a memory that really stuck with you

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Speaker 1: related to the environment.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 3: So I grew up in Kansas City, Missouri, and I

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Speaker 3: feel like it was both the greatest place to grow

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Speaker 3: up because people were kind. I enjoyed growing up with

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Speaker 3: my classmates in Raytown Schools, which is where I went

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Speaker 3: to school, and it was a community that was a

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Speaker 3: predominantly white space in which I went to school. But

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Speaker 3: I grew up in this little cul de sac that

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Speaker 3: was just completely black neighborhood. And one of the things

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Speaker 3: that my friends and I would notice as young girls

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Speaker 3: is that we would go to school and be made

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Speaker 3: fun of were you know, it's kind of the fifth grade,

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Speaker 3: sixth grade boys pulling the bra straps and so on,

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Speaker 3: And we were more developed and had to have these

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Speaker 3: conversations than like our white peers, and feeling different and

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Speaker 3: feeling othered already in that space made navigating that experience

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Speaker 3: of going through puberty at an earlier age challenging, and

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Speaker 3: so I think I really carried that into my adult space.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it didn't realize at the time that as someone

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Speaker 3: who was an aspiring scientist and that really was trying

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Speaker 3: just to enjoy learning signs, that I was caring for

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Speaker 3: that kind of what as a kid maybe it felt

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Speaker 3: like as a traumatic experience. And when I first became

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Speaker 3: aware of research studies that had looked at reasons or

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Speaker 3: risk factors of early puberty, seeing a that what I

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Speaker 3: felt like as a kid being validated that indeed black

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Speaker 3: girls were starting puberty earlier, that not only was that

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Speaker 3: the case, this was also linked to a variety of

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Speaker 3: adverse health outcomes both in the teen years and on

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Speaker 3: through later life, including breast cancer risk, but that there

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Speaker 3: might be something that we were exposed to in our environment,

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Speaker 3: including hair products that contained harmful chemicals, that might be

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Speaker 3: contributing to the reason why we were seeing earlier puberty.

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Speaker 3: And so that really for me connected my ten eleven

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Speaker 3: year old to me ourself with the twenty something to

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Speaker 3: me ourself that was starting graduate studies in public health

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Speaker 3: and epidemiology and having an aha moment that like there

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Speaker 3: might be something to this and wanting to not only

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Speaker 3: figure it out, but find solution.

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Speaker 1: For Yeah, I love when there's a very clear way

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Speaker 1: that you're connecting like the fat pastelf to the present

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Speaker 1: and future itself. Right, Like there's it seems like a

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Speaker 1: through line from your work to your childhood.

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Speaker 2: So that's really cool.

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Speaker 1: So there may not be a typical day, but what

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Speaker 1: does maybe the day to day look like for an

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Speaker 1: environmental reproductive epidemiologis.

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Speaker 2: So I love that you already noted there's not likely

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Speaker 2: a typical day, and that is very true.

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Speaker 3: I would say that my day is filled with meeting

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Speaker 3: different types of people, whether that is connecting with our

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Speaker 3: students who are curious and so excited to learn and

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Speaker 3: make a difference in this world, to working with our

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Speaker 3: support teams and staff members who are there to help

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Speaker 3: us implement our research studies in science, to meeting with

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Speaker 3: collaborators who are both here locally and all over the

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Speaker 3: world at the same time, who are positioned to partner

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Speaker 3: with us to do this work that really is inspired

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Speaker 3: to make the world a healthier place.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of meetings, a lot of reviewing papers,

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Speaker 2: a lot of and a lot of generating and fostering

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Speaker 2: new ideas that will help us to create and innovate solutions.

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Speaker 2: I don't use that word a lot, solutions, and I

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Speaker 2: do think the reason why I use that is because

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Speaker 2: I want people to understand that science helps to make

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Speaker 2: the world a healthier place through identifying sustainable and achievable solutions.

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Speaker 1: Can you say more about how the work that you're

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Speaker 1: doing really shows up in real life in terms of

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Speaker 1: protecting black women's health.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely so.

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Speaker 3: When I started doing this research about twenty five years ago,

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Speaker 3: there really wasn't an understanding about the fact that the

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Speaker 3: way here in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Our consumer products are.

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Speaker 3: In particularly our personal care products are regulated, doesn't actually

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Speaker 3: involve a company having to go through any vetting process.

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Speaker 3: So a company can simply we're interested in making a

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Speaker 3: new hair product or hair well. I mean there's in

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Speaker 3: the last I feel like the last five ten years,

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Speaker 3: we see this like really take off of the natural

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Speaker 3: hair product movement, and people are excited to see all

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Speaker 3: of these different parties innovate in this space. But what

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Speaker 3: we don't realize is just because it has landed on

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Speaker 3: the shelf does not mean that it's been that It

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Speaker 3: does not mean that it is safe for you. And

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Speaker 3: so what we've done in the last twenty five years

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Speaker 3: has really brought attention to that issue that personal care products,

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Speaker 3: particularly products that are marketed to black women, have chemicals

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Speaker 3: that are not always good for our bodies, and particularly

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Speaker 3: harmful chemicals. And people can say, well, everything's a chemical,

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Speaker 3: or you know, you have to make it with something.

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Speaker 3: But I think also what the average person is not

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Speaker 3: necessarily aware of, but there's been increasing awareness in this

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Speaker 3: is that here in the United States we regulate around

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Speaker 3: about a dozen different chemicals that are harmful to our

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Speaker 3: bodies health and that can be harmful ways that from

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Speaker 3: reproductive harms to harms for our brain and our brain

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Speaker 3: health and so on.

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Speaker 2: But there's scientific evidence that there are many.

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Speaker 3: More chemicals that need to be regulated, and so the

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Speaker 3: same companies are adhering to standards in the European market

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Speaker 3: based on science that comes from research like mine and

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Speaker 3: others that really lead to regulations around thirteen hundred.

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Speaker 2: So we went from about thirteen here in the US the.

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Speaker 3: Thirteen hundred that are regulated or banned from use and

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Speaker 3: so the same company is producing a product that is

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Speaker 3: different for the European market than what is here.

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Speaker 2: And so one of.

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Speaker 3: The things that we've done is to make the public aware,

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Speaker 3: importantly making clinicians aware. Clinicians, whether you're talking about a duela,

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Speaker 3: are you talking about an obstetrician or a pediatrician, a nurse,

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Speaker 3: they are one of our most iordant communicators right for

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Speaker 3: health information. The work you're doing here, doctor Duay super

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Speaker 3: important to communicating health information and so being able to

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Speaker 3: make sure that people who are coming to get information

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Speaker 3: have that information in their hands at their fingertips.

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Speaker 2: We really tried in our lab to do a lot

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Speaker 2: of work around making sure we communicate what is harmful,

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Speaker 2: what are some safer alternatives.

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Speaker 3: That people can consider using, or strategies that people can

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Speaker 3: use to find and identify safer products, And that really

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Speaker 3: wasn't out there before. I know that I didn't know.

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Speaker 3: I thought that we regulated better, but we don't. And

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Speaker 3: the onus ends up following on us, but really expanding

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Speaker 3: that beyond us to thinking about health educators and that

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Speaker 3: being a much broader community than I think mostly people

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Speaker 3: think about. And then thinking about retailers and businesses holding

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Speaker 3: them accountable as well.

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Speaker 1: So, doctor James, what is your understanding of why the

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Speaker 1: US does not have stronger regulations around these kinds of

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Speaker 1: products when so many other countries do.

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Speaker 3: I am not a policymaker, and I don't want to

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Speaker 3: profess to ever be to be to be one as

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Speaker 3: far as an expert, but I do think it's just

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Speaker 3: kind of embedded in our DNA.

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Speaker 2: We're individualists in some ways that.

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Speaker 3: Makes us amazing innovators, right Like I have an idea

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Speaker 3: and I get to take that idea and run with it.

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Speaker 3: And in other ways it means that the trade off

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Speaker 3: is that someone can bring something to market that could

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Speaker 3: unfortunately harm the market the people that are using those products.

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Speaker 3: So I think we often don't want to offset that

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Speaker 3: trade off, and we will go for the innovation side

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Speaker 3: of things as opposed to the without any kind of

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Speaker 3: guardrails or very few, and there are consequences to doing that.

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Speaker 3: So I do think trying to figure out a way

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Speaker 3: to balance that is.

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Speaker 1: Important, And what you're talking about really kind of falls

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Speaker 1: under this larger umbrella, which is a large part of

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Speaker 1: your work in terms of environmental racism. So for people

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Speaker 1: who've not heard that term before. Can you define that

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Speaker 1: for us?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, environmental racism is a form of discrimination in

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Speaker 3: which people are discriminated through place, through the products that

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Speaker 3: they use, the air that they breathe, even the ambient

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Speaker 3: temperatures that they're exposed to that are systematically occurring.

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Speaker 2: Due to the individual's racial identity.

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Speaker 3: In the ways that that can kind of show up

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Speaker 3: in the world is that there might be structural policies

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Speaker 3: or governance in place that makes it difficult for people

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Speaker 3: to not purchase land in certain places that have more

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Speaker 3: access to trees, or that within their neighborhoods, they have

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Speaker 3: less access to resources that are health promoting and there's

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Speaker 3: more health harming things.

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Speaker 2: Within their environment.

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Speaker 3: And that can be inclusive of when we're talking about

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Speaker 3: hair products, like how does that connect to hair products?

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Speaker 3: And one of our amazing doctoral students, who has now

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Speaker 3: gone on to do a post doc, doctor Marissa Chan,

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Speaker 3: was really interested in this question of play space factors

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Speaker 3: and the impact and role of environmental racism as it

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Speaker 3: related to access and availability to safer hair products.

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Speaker 2: And it turns out that im predominantly black communities as

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Speaker 2: well as general income communities, that there's less access to

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Speaker 2: safer products. So if you go into a local big

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Speaker 2: box store in a community that is a predominantly black community,

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Speaker 2: for example, or you go into one of those large

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Speaker 2: beauty supply stores, those stores are up to two times

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Speaker 2: maybe even sometimes higher more likely to have products hair products,

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Speaker 2: particularly that have harmful chemicals in them that include these

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Speaker 2: chemicals that impact and are associated with fibroids, privnacy complications

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Speaker 2: like pre term birth and so on, diabetes risk, higher

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Speaker 2: risk of obesity in many conditions that impact Black women,

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Speaker 2: and so thinking about not just what do I use,

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Speaker 2: but what is available to me, what do I have

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Speaker 2: access to because I think oftentimes we say, oh, I

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Speaker 2: can order it online, it's fine, but the average person

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Speaker 2: is not actually ordering their personal care products.

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Speaker 3: Some hair products, yes, but many of the ones that

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Speaker 3: you use day to day not so much. Or even

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Speaker 3: things like toothpaste, lotion, dealdor that's not usually being ordered online.

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Speaker 3: We're getting it from our local stores. And that does

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Speaker 3: have impact on our health.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, you know, and

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Speaker 1: as an epidemiologist, you really are looking at like how

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Speaker 1: repeated exposures over time accumulate, right, And so when we

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Speaker 1: see something like the Flint water crisis or the information

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Speaker 1: that's coming out around AI data centers. We're really looking at,

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Speaker 1: like how is that impacting people over time? Can you

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Speaker 1: say more about what that looks like? And like how

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Speaker 1: repeated exposures really do impact our health?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I'm actually going to go back to this example

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Speaker 3: just that we were grounded in with the hair products,

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Speaker 3: But what folks to think about, what are the other

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Speaker 3: things that are in our environment that we're impacted with

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Speaker 3: day in, day out. So the reason why I became

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Speaker 3: really interested in hair products as an important risk factor

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Speaker 3: for health disparities, and that includes a variety of health

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Speaker 3: disparities ranging for early puberty to hair in mental puzzle

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Speaker 3: things such as hot flashes. Okay, so was really this

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Speaker 3: case series? So this is where a doctor sees some

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Speaker 3: really interesting cases throughout your clinical practice. And in this case,

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Speaker 3: this doctor saw four young girls that ranged in age

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Speaker 3: from four months old to four years old. So it

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Speaker 3: was a pediatrician, it was a pediatric and necronologist, and

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Speaker 3: the reason why he was seeing these girls was because

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Speaker 3: they had all developed breast and pubic care.

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Speaker 2: So I said four months old to four years old.

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Speaker 3: Okay, And if you think about I have children too,

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Speaker 3: and so I've bathe the baby, put lotion on the baby,

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Speaker 3: or some children you might put a little bit of

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Speaker 3: hair oil and brush their hair or whatever.

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Speaker 2: But early on we start using products, all sorts of products.

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Speaker 3: Diaper cream, all of these things, diapers, wipes on our children.

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Speaker 3: Those things contain chemicals, and in childhood, children metabolize. That

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Speaker 3: means their bodies are processing those chemicals differently, sometimes slower,

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Speaker 3: sometimes more rapidly.

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Speaker 2: But you're exposed.

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Speaker 3: And so it turns out in this particular case series,

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Speaker 3: it was hair products that the children weren't being exposed to.

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Speaker 3: Once they figured this out, they contained different forms of estrogen,

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Speaker 3: and the parents stopped. Unbeknown to the parents that these

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Speaker 3: actually were not on the label. I think sometimes even

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Speaker 3: people think, well, I can read the label and figure

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Speaker 3: it out, and that is true to some extent, yes,

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Speaker 3: But I don't think everybody should be a chemist to

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Speaker 3: try to figure out and just decipher this right. So

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Speaker 3: long Shore, the pediatric indergrownd just recommended let's stop using

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Speaker 3: these products and see what happens in the breast regress.

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Speaker 3: That means the breast went away and the pepacare fell out.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there are very few times that.

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Speaker 2: Anything like that happens.

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Speaker 3: But that goes to show that even at early ages,

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Speaker 3: people are exposed to things that can change their bodies. Now,

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Speaker 3: in that case, it was very extreme, like a four

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Speaker 3: month old having breast in pubiccare.

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Speaker 2: That's extreme. You can visibly see it. But what you

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Speaker 2: don't realize is that some of those changes are things

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Speaker 2: that you can't see. And so you're being exposed.

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Speaker 3: And even if it is being processed through your body

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Speaker 3: pretty quickly, Okay, I used it tomorrow, and I use

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Speaker 3: it the next day, or I use that product a

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Speaker 3: week from now.

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Speaker 2: And so on, and so you keep doing that. You

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Speaker 2: do that through childhood when people's brains are developing again,

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Speaker 2: going back to the early puberty piece, you do that

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Speaker 2: through adolescence when people's the reproductive system is now ramped up,

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Speaker 2: and so on, and you continue throughout life, and that

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Speaker 2: constant and chronic exposure really can add up. It can

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Speaker 2: send people on kind of a different trajectory. And I

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Speaker 2: think about that in the context of one of the

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Speaker 2: things that can happen.

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Speaker 3: Is fat cell development. So you can turn your bodies

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Speaker 3: fat cell development on, and the more fat cells that

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Speaker 3: are produced, and the more we might eat. Because some

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Speaker 3: of these things change our body's ability to say I'm full.

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Speaker 2: You don't realize you're full anymore.

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Speaker 3: So now I have more fat cells and I'm eating more,

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Speaker 3: and I keep doing that over time. What happens if

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Speaker 3: you keep eating and you have more fat ceales, you

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Speaker 3: see more obesity and then you try to counter that

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Speaker 3: with all sorts of things, but it doesn't quite work.

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Speaker 3: And all of the issues with that diabetes, heart disease,

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Speaker 3: all of that.

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Speaker 2: And so we see these connections and links.

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Speaker 3: Again, I gave the example of hair products and chemicals,

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Speaker 3: but some of this is true. We know that extreme

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Speaker 3: heat exposure over time has real impacts.

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Speaker 2: On people's health.

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Speaker 3: We see links with earlier death and mortality. We see

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Speaker 3: connections there. It also impacts mental health.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: We know that exposure to poor and contaminated water impacts

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Speaker 3: our health. And so you mentioned doctor Joy, these data centers.

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Speaker 2: They're contaminating our water. They're also costing us more. Right,

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Speaker 2: they have real impact on air.

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Speaker 3: Pollution, which is linked to all sorts of things. For

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Speaker 3: black women palatistical variant syndrome, for example, we just published

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Speaker 3: a paper in our group on this and.

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Speaker 2: Thinking about when you're.

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Speaker 3: Exposed, where you exposed when you were developing in your

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Speaker 3: mom's belly or your parents belly, and is that contributing

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Speaker 3: later or were you exposed later on or throughout your

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Speaker 3: life course. So it have implications, But there are things

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Speaker 3: what I don't want to leave people with here is

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Speaker 3: the worry of like, oh my goodness. Well that means

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Speaker 3: there are things people can do to help improve their health.

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Speaker 1: So we definitely want to get to those solutions. Because

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Speaker 1: as you were talking, I'm thinking, like I got to

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Speaker 1: go to read all of my labels, like what am

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Speaker 1: I using? What are the kids using? But are there

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Speaker 1: certain products or certain chemicals or ingredients that you definitely

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Speaker 1: want to kind of put on the ratearf for people

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Speaker 1: that they would want to be mindful of that could

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Speaker 1: show up in things like so you've mainly been talking

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Speaker 1: about like hair products, what are we talking about like lotions, soaps,

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Speaker 1: other kinds of things that you know, maybe seem pretty innoculous,

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Speaker 1: but we really should be paying attention to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I often tell people I'm growing up, I

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Speaker 3: was that kid that I'd stay at my grandmother's house

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Speaker 3: from time to time. I open up the drawer that

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Speaker 3: she'd have in her her bedroom and she have all

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Speaker 3: these perfumes. I love perfume, loved fragrance. I was also

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Speaker 3: that teenager that was like.

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Speaker 2: They're at bath and body worse or wherever, so having

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Speaker 2: you know, I love fragrance. And yet one of the

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Speaker 2: things I suggest to people now now that I know

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Speaker 2: more about this, is you could be an amazing fragrance lover,

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Speaker 2: like you might love lavender. That might be your thing

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Speaker 2: for relaxing and trying to feel better, for example. And

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Speaker 2: what I recommend to folks is reduce your fragrance exposure.

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Speaker 2: So trying to wear perfumes and other fragrance products a

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Speaker 2: bit less. It does help with a variety of reducing

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Speaker 2: exposures to some of these harmful chemicals that are linked

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Speaker 2: to adverse health outcomes that I've mentioned reproductive outcomes, mental

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Speaker 2: health outcomes interestingly enough as well. And what's interesting too

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Speaker 2: is that oftentimes people.

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Speaker 3: Say, well, I use essential oil, so this is not

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Speaker 3: a problem for me, and I say they're not all

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Speaker 3: the same. So lavender I mentioned, as well as tea

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Speaker 3: tree oil, are two essential oils that have been shown

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Speaker 3: to be estrogenic. In other words, they mess with your

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Speaker 3: body's hormones, so you don't want to.

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Speaker 2: Kind of day in, day out. And I said reduce.

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Speaker 3: I didn't say eliminated, because I think it's hard to

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Speaker 3: eliminate things, but it does help to decrease your exposures.

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Speaker 3: Black women have among the highest exposures to some of

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Speaker 3: these harmful they're called endocrine disrupting chemicals, a big name

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Speaker 3: to just say that these are chemicals that mess with

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Speaker 3: your body's hormones.

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Speaker 2: And hormones regulate a lot in our body.

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Speaker 3: They manage a lot of different functions, and when we

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Speaker 3: mess with them, we don't actually get to have those

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Speaker 3: functions to operate or function do.

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Speaker 2: Normal things for us.

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Speaker 3: So long short, that's one thing I often say, big

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Speaker 3: picture consumer products, you want to think about what you're

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Speaker 3: storing your food's in, not microwaving and storing foods in

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Speaker 3: plastic for example, when possible, don't use a lot of

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Speaker 3: plastics in your home. And thinking about I think a

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Speaker 3: lot of people don't even realize this that like those

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Speaker 3: like glade plug ins or other things that you might use,

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Speaker 3: those are actually plasticizers.

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Speaker 2: So to hold fragrance in a product, and it's not.

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Speaker 3: Just glade just to be clear, like it's any of

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Speaker 3: those like air freshener things to hold those in the product,

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Speaker 3: and for them to actually work, they have to actually

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Speaker 3: have these kind of chemicals in them that are known

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Speaker 3: to be reproductive toxin. So thinking about ways that you

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Speaker 3: can reduce both your personal use of fragrance, your home

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Speaker 3: use of fragrance, steering clear of things like many of

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Speaker 3: the things that people are like, oh I love lavender,

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Speaker 3: I love this, you know, trying to reduce some of

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Speaker 3: the central oil use that we know can be orm

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Speaker 3: lanti if not all sential oils are the same, and

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Speaker 3: trying to also be able to use some of the

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Speaker 3: new technology that we have.

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Speaker 2: Again I go back to I don't want to be

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Speaker 2: a chemist. I'm not a chemist.

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Speaker 3: And for the chemists out there, hooray, But for most

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Speaker 3: of us we are not.

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Speaker 2: So considering using reading labels is helpful.

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Speaker 3: But maybe you consider using like apps like you know,

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Speaker 3: like here your folks talk about you goa or environmental

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Speaker 3: working groups, skin deep app and being able to see, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is what's in this product, this is what it

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Speaker 3: could do, and making informed choices about.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I can use this one, but maybe I don't.

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Speaker 3: Use this one too, because we often don't use one

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Speaker 3: product at a time. I think the average woman, for example,

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Speaker 3: uses about twelve or so products a day and is

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Speaker 3: exposed to about one hundred and sixty different chemicals every day.

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Speaker 3: So to the extent that we as black women who

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Speaker 3: are big users of products and highly exposed to these chemicals,

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Speaker 3: the extent that we can reduce that to some degree

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Speaker 3: would be green.

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Speaker 1: So as you're talking, I'd love to hear if there's

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Speaker 1: a connection you've made in your work thinking about like

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Speaker 1: just the history of what we've been taught about our

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Speaker 1: bodies and being dirty. Right, it feels like there is

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Speaker 1: a connection between smells and like wanting to be perfumed

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Speaker 1: in the beauty industry that is so deeply entrenched I

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Speaker 1: think in many black women's lives. So like the racism

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Speaker 1: really runs even further I think than we sometimes imagine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's this both the body part in the

443
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 3: home part. Right, So I say this folks, sometimes, like

444
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 3: when you think of beautiful, do you get a smell?

445
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 3: Like if I asked you to define beauty or I

446
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 3: feel when I'm feeling particularly beautiful, what does.

447
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: That look or smell like? Right?

448
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: And that could include things like straightened hair and makeup

449
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 3: and putting on that fragrance or the close smell a

450
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 3: certain way. Like, it's all of these things that we

451
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 3: do to augment our bodies and change our natural appearance.

452
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that that's but I love looking

453
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 3: a certain way.

454
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 2: You know, all of that, But that's also for our

455
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 2: homes too, Right, what does clean smell like to you?

456
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: And when I say clean, like.

457
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 3: Somebody might get like, oh the smell of lemon, the

458
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 3: smell of the pine saw exactly. I'm like, I know

459
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 3: what we'd use When I was growing up, we were

460
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 3: fine saw users.

461
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 2: So thinking about all of that and what would it

462
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: look like in the world to start changing that. What

463
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 2: will it take.

464
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 3: I remember when I first started wearing my hair natural.

465
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 3: I did it long before this old natural hair movement started,

466
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 3: partly because I loved my curls.

467
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: I was like, this is awesome. You know.

468
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 3: I won't tell you the number the product that I

469
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 3: was products I was using to maintain those girls, but

470
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 3: I really did embrace that long before. And the pushback

471
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 3: even from your own family, right, your own family be like, why.

472
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: Are you walking out of us like that? So part

473
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 2: of that change, Like part of the solution is as

474
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 2: we as a people can support each other in our

475
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:04,959
Speaker 2: transition to safer products, safer exposures and be more open

476
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 2: to what that might look like and what that might

477
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 2: smell like, and what that might feel like. And you're

478
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 2: one hundred percent right though that a part of that

479
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: is the systemic the messages that we've gotten as people

480
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 2: about what we're supposed to do, how we're supposed to

481
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 2: show up in the world. And it's beautiful to see

482
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: that that's shifting. And I think we need to like lean.

483
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 3: Into that moment and not be afraid to go back

484
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 3: and when we run into challenges to like figure out.

485
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: As a way to innovate.

486
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 3: One thing that we have done in our again going

487
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 3: back to doctor Chan's work, because I really just want

488
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 3: to highlight the amazing work that she has done as

489
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 3: a multiracial woman, is to think about who should be

490
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 3: at the table to help make change. So in the

491
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 3: context of hair and hair products, it was not just

492
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 3: thinking about policymakers, which often time.

493
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: If in fact, if you ask scientists who.

494
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 3: Should be at the table for solution, it's going to

495
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 3: be policymakers. It's us and policymakers, And what she asked

496
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 3: was she asked the community who's involved in solutions. And

497
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, what you're talking about,

498
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 3: doctor Joy balestown down to an issue of trust and

499
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 3: the messages that we've gotten leads us to not trust

500
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 3: thes anybody, you know, like it might be a false message,

501
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 3: and I don't. So it was the community, It was

502
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: the salon owners, It included scientists and policymakers, but it

503
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 3: also really included thinking about the role of health communicators.

504
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 3: And I go back to that I know has started there,

505
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 3: but like the work that you're doing, the influencers out there,

506
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 3: that they are communicating information, the clinicians, they are communicating information.

507
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: And so to the extent that we can educate different

508
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: people that are in this discussion, it's going to be

509
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 3: key and important to making change.

510
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: Can you say a little bit more. I know there

511
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: has been so much research that has come out around

512
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: like relaxers. Of course, you know, so many of us

513
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: grew up getting relaxes, and I think we're having very

514
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: different conversations now, but I think now we're starting to

515
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: see more of the numbers and like the impact of

516
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: how relaxers and hair straighteners and different things like that

517
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: have impacted people's health. Can you say more about what

518
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: we've learned and what people might want to know about

519
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: those products specifically.

520
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 3: Back in the ninety there was a set of papers

521
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: that came out really looking at the impact of relaxers,

522
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: and it was really getting at LIE specifically. They were

523
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: interested in knowing whether or not a LIE relaxer due

524
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 3: to potential of burn and so on, was having impact

525
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 3: on at the time, like other health harms.

526
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: Previous work had.

527
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: Focused in on like skin health that was the primary focus,

528
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,479
Speaker 3: like looking at dermatology and so on, but these were

529
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: the first kind of papers that were starting to look at,

530
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: for example, fibroids or breast cancer. And what has been

531
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 3: really interesting to see is this awareness that it's not

532
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 3: just LIE. For example, as many of us though, like

533
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 3: particularly those of us who've ever had a relaxer, you

534
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: see the person or maybe ourselves, like we mix up

535
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: the chemicals together and we can smell it and spell

536
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: as a particular kind of spell, and so this awareness

537
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 3: that there's other chemicals and so maybe back in I

538
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: think it was two thousand and eighteen, a paper came

539
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: out that documented what were the different types of chemicals

540
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: that were in hair relaxers and other hair products, and

541
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: it turned out there were many different types of that

542
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 3: gang about these hormonally active chemicals, there were also asthma

543
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: inducing chemicals. So in the black community community we also

544
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: have higher rates of asthma, for example. And that work

545
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 3: was actually done by Silent Spring Institute, I should say

546
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: as a part of us sharing a list of commonly

547
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 3: used hair products from a study that I ran, the

548
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 3: Greater New York Care Products Study. But what that made

549
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 3: people aware of is we should probably be looking at

550
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 3: more than just lie. We should look at other things.

551
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 3: And there was an awareness that these had from aldehyde

552
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 3: releasing agents in them. Formaldehyde is a carcinogen, in other words,

553
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 3: is a cancer causing agent. Who or the World Health

554
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 3: Organization and others have noted this, And so this interest

555
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 3: and curiosity around weight, maybe we should look at is

556
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: there a link with breast cancer, ovarian cancer, uterine cancer,

557
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 3: some of which are much more common among black women.

558
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 3: Black women are using these products more Black women have

559
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 3: higher coxposure to some of these chemicals. And indeed that's

560
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: what has been found in these studies is that now

561
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: have pointed to this with that increased awareness, being able

562
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: to say these companies may have known.

563
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: That they are putting chemicals in that.

564
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: Could be harmful, and holding companies accountable accordingly for that.

565
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: So I think it's important that we're sitting in a

566
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: moment in time where we become aware of that. But

567
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 3: one thing I'll just note is the hair relaxers are

568
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 3: on for a very short period of time. One of

569
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 3: the things that we really have been trying to bring

570
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 3: attention to is that, going back to doctor Joy, what

571
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: you mentioned about chronic exposures, what about the maintenance products.

572
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: What are about the products that we use, whether we're

573
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 3: getting relaxers, whether we're doing natural hair that we're using

574
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 3: day and day out or weekend, week out, that keep

575
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 3: exposing us, our kids, our elders to these harmful products,

576
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 3: our chemicals and the implications on our health.

577
00:32:51,840 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break and you mentioned

578
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: you know, you want people not to kind of walk

579
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: away feeling hopeless. I mean, because it can be very

580
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: overwhelming to think about, like, oh my gosh, I got

581
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: to read all these labels, I got to remove all

582
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: these things. What are some steps that people can take

583
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: to you kind of start maybe minimizing, you said, like

584
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: cut back on their footprint in terms of maybe the

585
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: products and things that they're using.

586
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there are safer products out there. So that's

587
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: like a first like I don't know, like I don't

588
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: know about you all, but like just that, like I

589
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: hope that that creates room to breathe. There are safer

590
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 2: products out there. Is there room for war safer products? Yes?

591
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: Is there opportunity and for innovation and holding companies accountable?

592
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: Yes. So the kind of things that I often encourage

593
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 2: people to do is.

594
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: We many of us have phones. We use all sorts

595
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: of apps on our phones. Download an app, find one

596
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 3: that you really like. Some of the apps will actually

597
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 3: you scan a product in the store and they tell

598
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: you, you know what this nih maybe try this other one.

599
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 3: So they'll give suggestions and alternatives. We'll give you an

600
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 3: actual rating. Like some people like seeing numbers. They like

601
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 3: to see red, green, yellow, and so like again I

602
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: mentioned a couple, I'll go back and say things like

603
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,919
Speaker 3: the environmental work in group Skin Deep BAP. I also

604
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 3: want to say that I have no affiliation with any

605
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 3: of these organizations, but Yuka and detox me these are

606
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 3: different apps that folks can see and be mindful of.

607
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: Reading labels helps. I will say again in the United States,

608
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: we do not require companies to have to disclose everything.

609
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 3: Okay, So there are certain things that you will see

610
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 3: on a label. For example, you might see something like pairavin,

611
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 3: like methyl pair of it or ethyl pairvin, and those

612
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: are chemicals that are put into products.

613
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: To keep the bacterial growth down.

614
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 3: Important also important to know that if it's something you're

615
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 3: going to be using all the time daily, those chemicals

616
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 3: do impact the intecrint system and so they've been linked

617
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 3: to a number of different health outcomes, So you might

618
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,760
Speaker 3: want to think about that fragrance. Fragrance is actually hundreds

619
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 3: of different chemicals. So you'll see fragrance on a package.

620
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 3: It's many different things. And to hold the fragrance in

621
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 3: our plasticizers like these big words like balades and so on,

622
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 3: and those are the chemicals that have been linked to

623
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 3: like pre term birth, hypertensive disorders of pregnancy, so preeclampsia

624
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 3: and so on, and so just thinking about maybe there's

625
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 3: time periods that we use less of those we choose

626
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 3: to during pregnancy, make a different choice, and so we

627
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 3: can kind of team up use our own ability to

628
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 3: read the labels and say, Okay, I'm not going to

629
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say away from Fragrance because says Fragrance, and

630
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 3: I'm gonna choose something else or using those apps. And

631
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 3: then I mentioned some of these other things that people

632
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 3: can do within their homes, like there's ways to I do.

633
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: Not have time to do this, but if you so choose,

634
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: I tell people, maybe choose one thing you can change.

635
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: So for some people it might be I had a

636
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: friend who was really inspired to change. I was not

637
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: this person, but she was.

638
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 3: Like, I'm going to change my deodorant. I was like great,

639
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 3: So she started making her own deodorant. I did not

640
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: have time to make my own deordorant, but I'm.

641
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: Glad she chose one thing. So maybe if you're one

642
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: thing might not be.

643
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 3: Please don't go home, or if you're at home, don't

644
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: go to your letting clouse or wherever you store your

645
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: products and throw out all your products.

646
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: Don't do that, but choose one thing that you might change.

647
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 3: In order to start moving the needle towards lower exposures.

648
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: You've mentioned several times that there is more space also

649
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: to hold like companies and corporations accountable. What might that

650
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: look like, doctor James Hatt? Is that voting with our

651
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: dollars and like not buying these products? Writing letters to

652
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: the companies like what does you know? Holding them accountable

653
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: actually look like?

654
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 3: I think it's all of those things. I think real

655
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 3: innovation starts happening. And I'll give you an example of this.

656
00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 3: So maybe back in around like twenty ten, so my

657
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 3: colleague and I reached out to a major manufacturer. I

658
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 3: won't name who it was, but we reached out to manufacturer.

659
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 2: We've looked at the market.

660
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 3: The market is very green when it comes to products

661
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 3: that are marketed towards white individuals and individuals who have

662
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: straight and not textured hair. We don't see that for

663
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 3: people of color, particularly black women and people who have

664
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: very curly hair. We would love to work with you

665
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 3: to innovate around this, and to not just.

666
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 2: Innovate around this, but to ensure that we are contributing

667
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 2: to making products that are safer. So we really wanted

668
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: to work with this major manufacturer to do so, and

669
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: they said to us, there is no market for this.

670
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 2: Black people will not buy safer products. It will cost

671
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 2: more money and they will not purchase it. I had

672
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 2: two issues with this, or maybe even more than two,

673
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: but I just want to highlight the two that came

674
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: to my mind.

675
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 3: One, we are one of the largest We meaning black

676
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 3: women are one of the largest consumers of personal care

677
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 3: products and particularly the largest consumer of hair products.

678
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: Like we will buy products too, we will pay a

679
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: lot for them. So I just was dumbfounded. But what

680
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 2: was being said.

681
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 3: And we kept trying, and we just kind of didn't

682
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 3: go anywhere. But then what happened. You start seeing black

683
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 3: women take up arms with this and push.

684
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 2: For new products.

685
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: Now a part of that wasn't really around safer products.

686
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 3: It was around products that were marketed to natural hair.

687
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 3: So we started seeing a push towards that. We also

688
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 3: started seeing pop ups of companies that were marketing towards

689
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 3: our children with safer products. And we did it ourselves.

690
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 3: We saw the gap in the market and we said,

691
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 3: this is what we're going to do. Now, everybody's going

692
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 3: to start their own company. And we certainly have seen

693
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 3: a huge boom in social media around people do it

694
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: yourself and all of this, and certainly that's a thing,

695
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 3: but I think a part of it is making sure.

696
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 2: That we do have money to spend on this. We

697
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 2: can talk with our money and if that means we're

698
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: going to purchase products that are safer and healthier for

699
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 2: us being able to do so, so do your research.

700
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 2: One two. Really, when I say hold companies accountable, I

701
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 2: think when there's harm done, we often won't report it.

702
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 3: It takes up time, it takes up issue. And there

703
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 3: are companies that they were developed by a black woman

704
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: and then sold and then I don't know about you,

705
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: I've experienced this, where then the product if you scalp

706
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 3: at all that and I'm like, oh, nevermind, I just

707
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 3: go on to another product. Right to that company, right

708
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 3: to the federal government, right to the state government, right

709
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 3: to your local government, and start getting that done. Some

710
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 3: of the biggest innovation that has happened around policy and

711
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 3: regulation in this space is actually at the state level,

712
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 3: So do not be afraid to get involved at the

713
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: state level. One thing I'll bring up in this space

714
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 3: is what's slowly happening across the country is.

715
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 2: A deregulation of the beauty industry through.

716
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 3: Bills that are being passed to make it not necessary

717
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 3: for people to be licensed and on them want to do.

718
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 2: Hair and on the one hand, like sure can maybe.

719
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 3: Innovate around economics, and that's important, but it's also important

720
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 3: here is a part of our body.

721
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: What we put on our hair is a part of

722
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 2: our body. We're seeing that with braining hare for example,

723
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 2: right like containing lead and other like harmful chemicals.

724
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 3: It sits on our scalp, It's absorbed through our body.

725
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 3: We put this on young children. We know lead can

726
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 3: actually impact young children self impacts all people's health, but

727
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 3: particularly young children.

728
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 2: And so this is problematic.

729
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 3: If we don't have people in place that know about this,

730
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 3: it can have real harm in our community. So being

731
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 3: able to advocate at the state level, going to your

732
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 3: state legislator, seeing who was involved in the passing of

733
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 3: these bills, and really making sure that people see and

734
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 3: hear from you about the potential health harm to impacts

735
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 3: of these laws and policies can make a real difference.

736
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: In the world.

737
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: What gives you hope about this work, doctor James Hid.

738
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: When I started this twenty five years ago, I remember

739
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: people having no clue what I was talking about. What

740
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 2: are you saying you want to look at consumer products

741
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: and chemicals and women's health, What does that even mean?

742
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 3: And that you're interested in how this impacts health disparies.

743
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 3: We don't know what you're talking about. In the hair

744
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 3: product space, it was people use shampoo, conditioner, they wash

745
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 3: it out and it's done.

746
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: What do you say, you know?

747
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 3: I'm like, that's not my lived experience. I sure I

748
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 3: use shampoo and conditioner, but I also use list of

749
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 3: other products. I am inspired and I see hope in

750
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 3: conversations that people are having about an awareness that they

751
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 3: have out environmental factors in women's health. The fact that

752
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 3: we can have this conversation, doctor Joy, in that it's

753
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 3: becoming a more mainstream conversation that people are aware that

754
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 3: it's not just what you eat.

755
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 2: It's not just the water you drink.

756
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 3: Or the air you breathe, but it's also the products

757
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 3: that you use that can have real impact on your health.

758
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: I have learned so much in talking with you, just

759
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: for this brief time. I feel like there are so

760
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: many more questions I have for you, but cannot take

761
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: up all of your time for sure. But where can

762
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: we stay connected with your work? Doctor James? How what

763
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 1: is your website as well as any social media handles

764
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: that you'd like to share?

765
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: First of all, thank you again for having me. It's

766
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 3: been wonderful. You can feel free to stay connected with me.

767
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 3: I can be found on a Harvard chan School of

768
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 3: Public Health's website under the James Todd Lab. We are

769
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 3: also the Environmental Reproductive Justice Labs, so you can feel

770
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 3: free to google us that way and find us there.

771
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 2: You can follow some of the work that we've done

772
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 2: through the Beauty plus Justice podcast, which is available on

773
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 2: Apple and Spotify platforms, and we are also good president

774
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: on social media through the James Toodlab. So we would

775
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: love to have you all continue to connect and reach

776
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: out to us through those different platforms.

777
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: Perfect We'll make sure to include all of that information

778
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: in the show notes. Thank you so much for sending

779
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 1: some time with us today. I appreciate it.

780
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I have a

781
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:20,439
Speaker 2: wonderful rest of the day.

782
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: Now, don't go throwing everything in your bathroom away, y'all.

783
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: Remember baby steps and small changes are a huge benefit

784
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: to your health in the long run. I learned so

785
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: much from this conversation and I'm happy that she was

786
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,240
Speaker 1: able to join us today. So learn more about doctor

787
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: James Todd and her work. Be sure to check out

788
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash

789
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: Session four four nine, and don't forget to text two

790
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: of your girls right now and tell them to check

791
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: out the episode. Did you know that you could leave

792
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast.

793
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: If you have topics you'd like us to discuss, drop

794
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for

795
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.

796
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're

797
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist

798
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't

799
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black

800
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: Girls and join us over in our Patreon for exclusive updates,

801
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: behind the scenes content, and much more. We can't wait

802
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: to see you there. You can join us at community

803
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced

804
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: by Lisa Ellis, Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done

805
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me

806
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation

807
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: with you all real soon. Take good care,