WEBVTT - The Amygdala 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.360 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:19.080 Jen Kirkman. Hi, everybody, Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:23.640 I am your host Jen Kirkman. Today, my guest is 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:29.440 one of the nation's leading neuroscientists, Joseph led. His groundbreaking 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:34.080 research has deepened our understanding of the brain mechanisms that 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.080 underlie emotion and memory, which has opened the door to 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:42.080 new treatments and specifically has opened the door for behavioral 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:47.400 therapies for children and adults with anxiety disorder. Joseph lad 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:49.879 has been working on the link between emotion, memory and 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.800 the brain since then. He's credited with putting the amygdala 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:59.200 in the spotlight and making this previously esoteric subcortical brain 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:03.560 region a house whole. Name. Lid founded the Emotional Brain Institute. 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:07.240 He's also a professor in the Departments of Psychiatry and 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.800 Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at ny U Langon Medical Center. 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.640 In addition to articles in scholarly journals, he's the author 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.520 of the books The Emotional Brain, The Mysterious Underpinnings of 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.600 the Emotional Life, and Synaptic Self, How our brains become 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.880 who we are. He also has a book called Anxious 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:32.559 and his latest book, which we didn't really talk about. 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.480 That's why it's not at the top of my brain 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.960 right now. But oh my god, what's going on with this? 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.720 I just tried to put his name into um Amazon 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.440 and but it just didn't It just didn't go so well. UM. 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.400 His latest book, though, is The Deep History of Ourselves, 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.000 the four billion year Story of How we got conscious 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:55.960 brains that came out in twenty and his book before 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.200 that was called Anxious, Using the Brain to Understand and 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.360 Treat Fear and Anxiety. Now Anxious is literally I mean, 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:05.960 it's so dense and in the best of ways, it's 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:12.680 just so packed with science and information. It's it's honestly 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:19.600 like taking a home study college course. It's it's so informative. UM. 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.160 And The Deep History of Ourselves, the four billion year 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.960 Story of how we got conscious. We didn't talk about 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:27.959 that book, but we skirted around some of the issues 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.360 that he talks about in the book. So at one 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.040 point in the interview, I asked him a question about 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.160 you know, emotions and our soul and the concept of 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.600 that and and uh. And I also asked him if 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:44.680 if neuroscientists are control freaks who are really trying to 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.000 just conquer figuring out the brain. And you know, he 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.400 was kind of like, no, I mean, you've got to really, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.440 you know, the brain is part of this four billion 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.280 year evolution, and as slow as it may seem to us, 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:58.800 you know, we are evolving. So there really is no 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:05.840 completely mastering knowing the brain, I guess. But it was 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:10.919 interesting talking to Joseph because I've always known his work. 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:16.480 I knew that he was someone who, um it was 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:18.440 kind of a pioneers, as I just said in the 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.920 intro and getting the word the amygdala into our lexicon, 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.799 and a lot of people just casually say the amygdalasa 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:30.480 fear center, and that's really an oversimplification that it's beyond 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:35.120 and over simplifications just not true exactly. But um, he 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.640 does explain how the amygdala has something to do with 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.120 a fear response, but there's no such thing as like 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:46.360 the fear center of the brain. And so I feel 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.840 like our talk today when before I interviewed him, I 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:56.120 thought it might be this very scientific talk and it was, 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:01.680 but from my end, because I'm not a neuroscientists, I 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:04.840 don't have the language quite that he does. I don't 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:12.560 have I can't quite follow um every trail of questioning 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.080 and talking with someone in the academic way. So as 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.599 he's speaking in an academic way, I can follow the train. 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.479 I understand what he's saying, but I'm not learned enough 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.640 to speak it back. So I would kind of come 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.160 up questions in the moment that we're more like, okay, 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.200 so let's talk about you know, the emotion of that, 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:34.719 and do think there's a human soul? And as I 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:36.599 didn't expect the interview to go that way, and it 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.120 was it was my limitations that that made me take 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:41.680 it that way. But I think it's good because I 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.320 am not a neuroscientist. I'm not here to be you know, 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.120 one on one neuroscientist and neuroscientist. I'm here to be 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:52.440 all of our voices, and so it may seem like 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:56.880 I'm a dingdong and that's fine, but I also really 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:00.560 enjoy the you know talk. You know, him kind of 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.400 reminded me of talking to um Dr Lisa Felman Barrett, 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.400 who I talked to in one of the earlier episodes, 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.200 and their work is very similar and they have they 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:13.560 agree mostly on on their discoveries and on things in 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.520 the brain, because you know, even within the brain, there 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.880 there is an exact science, but there are some moments 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.159 here and there that that tend to hindle a little 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.560 bit on a philosophy. And there is this interesting intersection 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:28.800 that I've never really dug too deeply into with either 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:33.360 of these guests between um, I think, between philosophy and neuroscience, 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:37.919 where there are just some things that are a thousand 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:41.560 percent proven, but the way you look at it or 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:43.800 interpret it or put a narrative to it is kind 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:45.720 of up to your own personal philosophy, if that makes 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.920 any sense. And so with Dr Lisa Film and Barrett, 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.760 you know, I think she's very like no bones about it, like, 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.799 here's how the brain works when you're having a panic attack. 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:57.960 This is what's going on in your brain. And with 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:02.760 Joseph Lead, it's the same science and it's the same um. Yes, 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.800 this is coming from our brain and our nervous system, 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.440 and our brain is processing. But he brings it more 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.159 to talk about emotions, and so in his work he's 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:16.240 used the brain to understand our emotions, and I think 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.840 in other neuroscientists work it's like using the brain to 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.840 understand anxious response. And so I didn't get too deeply 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.359 into emotions with Joseph lad And and part of me 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.880 regrets it because I really didn't. I don't think I 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:36.160 really quite thought to frame the interview that way, um, 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.039 because I first wanted to understand the brain concepts that 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.479 he was talking about. But I did find it fascinating 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:45.320 that in his work that he discovered what he was 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:47.679 famous for is saying, you know, we can study rats 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.480 all we want, and we can stimulate them and then 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:52.520 take things away from them and watch them get addicted 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:58.080 or watch them get anxious, but we cannot determine human 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.600 feelings from that because these an almos just they do 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:03.880 not have feelings. And I know that it is very 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:05.960 controversial to all of you out there, Like my cat 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.520 definitely has feelings, and I can tell my cats thinking something, 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:11.200 and listen, I I say the same thing about animals, 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:15.320 and I'm all for projecting our feelings onto animals. But um, 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:17.360 I think you get at what he was saying scientifically, 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:20.640 is that like it's it's sort of that problem we 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:22.920 run into, right if any of you out there, like myself, 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.240 have been medicated for anxiety or depression. When you talk 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.520 to a doctor about it, who only has, you know, 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.280 a half hour with you to explain all of this 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.840 in very very simplified layman's terms. They go into their 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.480 spiel about we're just like cave in and we have 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.520 these leftover responses and we're having panic attacks and this 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.480 medicine helps blah blah blah blah blah. And you know, 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:45.960 at the end of the day, like the medicine definitely 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:50.960 can help with some of the physical response and you know, 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:53.560 getting more serotonin flowing in our brain and all of that, 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.920 but you would still have to account for the fact 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.920 that you're human being with emotions that are based on 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.560 memories and that are based on habits and patterns. And 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.000 that gets into my original talk with my first guest, 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:09.840 Dr jud Bruger, who you know, has really approached looking 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:14.000 at anxiety and panic as a habit, and so that's 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.320 where it's always going to be, Like there is no 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.880 magic pill for anything, you know. Taking it back to 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.120 my conversation um that I had on the episode about 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:25.000 ketamine invasions, you know, it's like, there are things that 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.560 can help us get to a point where we are 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:32.480 maybe relaxed enough or out of the deep despair of 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:38.079 depression enough to then do something cognitive or emotional about 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:42.320 our behaviors. Um but there isn't a magic pill in 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.359 that sense, and so a lot of these animal studies 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:50.760 they don't get to the heart of what somebody needs 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:55.000 who's having um any anxiety, panic, depression, or just you know, 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.520 being alive and being having emotions about that. And so 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:00.680 I really think it's fascinating that at the end of 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.200 the day, all of our brains process the same way basically, 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:09.600 but it's our memories and our life experience that makes 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.240 the brains say, oh, I'm in this situation again, whether 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:13.480 or not it is, you know, a lot of times 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.400 again well, especially in terms of panic, we think we're 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.760 in a dangerous situation where we're not, and that could 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.959 be based on our memories, you know. But so it's 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:26.040 a little ethereal like, but I think our conversation will 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.400 make sense. And he's he's so fun and so pleasant. 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.120 I was so honored that he came on the show. 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.000 And my favorite part is that he's in a band 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.320 called the Amygdaloids, and we talked a little bit about that. 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.040 But um, I hope you get a lot out of 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:45.400 our conversation and I'll just let you enjoy my conversation 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:54.400 with neuroscientist Joseph le Do. Just to start off for fun, 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.559 I heard you have a band called the Amygdala's and 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.960 I see the guitar, Oh, the mag Deloyd's. Tell me 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:05.000 about that band. Well, we were, you know, in UH 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:09.960 around two thousand five or so. I met a colleague 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.000 here at n y U who had also written books 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.040 for the general public, and so we had dinner together 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:20.719 and we discovered we both have Stratocaster Fender Stratocaster guitars 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.400 and that you know, like classic rock and roll, and 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.079 so we got together me jam played some plastic rock 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:32.160 and had a good time UM. And eventually a young 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.360 post doc arrived and UH and didn't I didn y U. 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:40.160 And she came to a party, probably a Christmas party 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.760 or something we were playing at UH, and she said, well, 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:47.200 I played drums, so she joined the band. And and 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:51.040 then November four, November first, two thousand and six. I 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:52.920 remember the date very clear because it was a big 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.240 moment in my life. We got invited. I got invited 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.520 to give a lecture at something called the Secret Science 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:01.800 Club in Brooklyn. And this is a kind of you know, 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:08.000 local Park Slope um group that would just be interested 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.400 in science and they would have people come in and talk. 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.600 And so they said, well and we'll have some entertainment. 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.679 After that said I'll bring the entertainment. So right right 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:22.160 as that was happening, the drummer Daniella Schiller Um, who 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:26.320 had a research assistant named Nina Curly, and the guitar 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.480 player was Tyler voc Well, Nina Um turned out to 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.240 be a bass player, so she joined the group. So 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:37.120 we you know, we did our uh let me clarify. 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:41.040 So the day right before the show happened, we were 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.839 written up before anything happened in the Long Island newspaper 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:49.080 called I forget what it's called, but anyway, it was 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:52.800 they called it. They described our show as heavy mental, 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.160 Oh my god, I love it, and so we named 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.240 our first album to that. But so we played. We 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.079 had a kind of set list that was all about 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:05.080 classic rock songs about mind and brain, like Jimmy Hendricks's 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.800 Many Depression or Mother's Little Helper from the Rolling Stones 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.120 nine Nervous Break, all that kind of sting. A lot 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:13.920 of rock songs are about mind and brain and mild 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.520 disorders anyway, so we had those, and then I wrote 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.440 a couple of songs for the gig and the crowd 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.960 really liked those, so I started writing more and more 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:25.400 and we ended up by our first album. We called 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.680 it Heavy Mental uh, and we ended up probably with 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:31.960 five of Nigda Lloyd's albums or so, and then I 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.480 have two or three, maybe four others that I've done 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.520 without the Amigna lords. So that is very cool. And 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.120 do you do any originals? They're all originals. They're all 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:46.720 originals enough to do covers. We do originals. That's great, 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:59.440 We'll be right back. Well, I'm going to start with 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.520 tell me why, for better or for worse, you are 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.320 known as the reason we know what the amygdala is. 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.040 And if you can tell us what it is, and 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:11.760 you know, as I said, be as smart as you 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:13.360 want to be, I'll help you dumb it down if 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:17.480 you need to. Okay, so here we go. Um Well, 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:21.080 I got interested in the question of how the brain 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.599 makes emotions in the nineties seventies when I was a 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:28.199 graduate student studying split brain patients. These are people knew 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.560 the two halves of the brain have been separated, the 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:35.199 connections have been separated to prevent seizures from spreading around 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.599 in the brain. It was a treatment for epilepsy and 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.760 people who were without any other hope of having a 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.920 treatment because the medications back then weren't so hot. Well, 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:47.600 it's not done very often anymore because the medications have improved. 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.840 The most important thing about these people is when you 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.199 cut the connections between the left hemisphere in the right hemisphere, 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.560 You've got language in the left hemisphere. So when you 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:02.360 talk to the person, that's who's responded. The right hemisphere 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.600 can't talk, but it can get You can put a 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.280 stimulus over there by presenting it to the left side 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:12.000 of visual space that goes to the right hemisphere. And 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.640 so the classic findings from the nineteen sixties by my mentor, 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:21.640 who's Mike Santaga, showed that, you know, the right hemisphere 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.320 could detect and respond to stimuli that you present to it, 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:27.720 even though it couldn't talk about it. It was, you know, 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.760 kind of awaken, alive and responsive, so it had some 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.040 kind of sentience in a sense. But the left hemisphere 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:35.960 seemed to be the one that was like in charge 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.520 and conscious and could talk to you and tell you 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:40.960 about its life and all of that. So that was 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.760 kind of the key flanning. So you for example, they 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:45.640 would put an apple picture of an apple in the 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.760 right hemisphere and then put the left hand into a bag, 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.840 and you know, it would feel around and to pull 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.480 out the apple instead of banana or you know, what 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.640 to look for. It didn't. It knew what to look 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.320 for on the perceptual stimulus that have been put into 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:04.360 the right hemisphere, so left hand could pull it up. 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:07.280 So it was definitely awakened, responsive and all of that. 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.600 But I can ask one quick thing, Uh, the reason 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.280 it knew what an apple felt like was not just 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.320 from the picture, but from memories that it had in 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.880 life of Okay, we aren't born with knowing what apples 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.040 are or anything else. You know, you gotta learn that stuff. 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.840 And Stuart as a semantic memory. So anyway, this was 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.680 kind of like what the early work was on. And 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.520 by the time I came along, I was at a 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.760 graduate student at Stony Brook on on Long Island, that's 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.040 where Mike was at the time, and we had a 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.640 new group of patients and these patients were operated on 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:44.520 at Dartmouth Medical School. So we cooked up a kind 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:49.560 of camper trailer behind a orange punkin orange forward van 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.560 and we drive it up to New England and study 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.800 these patients that were being operated on up there. And 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.720 we had this one patient who seemed really, really unusual. 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.640 So what we found was that in addition to being 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.360 able to speak out of the left hemisphere, it could 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.960 read in the right hemisphere. Couldn't talk out of the 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.480 right hemisphere, but he could read. So that allowed us 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.000 to put complicated questions into the right hemisphere, like who 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.480 are you? And then we had a bunch of scrabble 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:20.920 letters out there and the left hand would come out 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.600 and they spelled Paul p u h. That was his name. 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.680 So that right hemisphere, even though it couldn't talk, I 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.720 knew who he was. When we asked it what you 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.920 want to do when you grow up, the response was, well, 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:38.120 I want to be a race car driver. And the 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.400 left hemisphere, on the other hand, would say it wanted 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.160 to be a draftsman when you would talk to it. 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.200 So you've got a sense of self in the right hemisphere, 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:49.960 you've got a vision of the future. You know, these 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:55.080 are like the hallmarks of consciousness, self identity, and future thought. 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.400 So this was the first evidence that you could have, 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.960 you know, literally two minds in one brain like that, 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.520 and um, it was. It was fascinating. But one of 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.200 the one of the things we discovered is that when 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.360 we would put a stimulus into the right hemisphere and 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.119 asked the left hemisphere, why did you do that? So 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.479 like if we told if we put the word stand 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.639 in the right hemisphere, the guy would stand up. So 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.280 he said, why did you do that? Because left hemisphere 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.040 didn't know why he stood up because only the right 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:27.960 hemisphere saw the stimulus. He said, well, I needed to stretch. 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.240 And if if we had him, you know, if we 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.760 said scratch and so he's or itch or something, he 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.120 could scratch his hand. He said, why did you do that? Well, 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.680 I had a niche. Or if we made him laugh 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.400 and he said laugh, he would la, why do you laugh? 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.800 You guys are really funny. So the left hemisphere was 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.680 generating a narrative to make his behavior makes sense. Oh 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:54.879 my god, this is incredible. Let me just recap. I 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:59.879 just want to dumb it down. So the reason actually 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.000 that the guy stood and scratched and laughed was because 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.760 you told him too. But uh so let me ask you. 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:09.840 So I knew you were going to say this, like 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:12.399 he created the narrative. Well, if I stood, I obviously 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:17.160 needed to stretch. Is there anywhere in that brain that 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.520 he was aware that you wrote stand Like, it's not 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.000 like a lie, It's like he really thinks he had 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:28.240 to stretch. Yes, And this, you know, this was so 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.560 you know, when we see these patients at night after 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.800 the day's work, we'd go to a bar and you know, 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:37.359 have a bite to eat and have a few drinks 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:41.360 and talk about the day's events. And you know what 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:43.679 we came up with was, well, this isn't just like 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:45.760 a pathology of the brain. This is what we do 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:50.360 all the time. Our brain is constantly generating behaviors unconsciously, 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:55.000 and in fact, most of our behaviors controlled unconsciously. But 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.040 you know, we all believe free will. So it's disturbing. 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.120 It creates cognitive dissonance to think that you aren't controlling 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.919 your own behavior. So if you see yourself behaving in 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:07.120 a way that you didn't program, you know, you kind 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:09.520 of generate a narrative to make it all makes sense. 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:11.560 Are if you you know, if you were having an 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:16.160 argument with your partner and you say something really awful, well, 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.040 then you justify because you know my partners being awful, 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.679 so that it doesn't matter, you know. And this is 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.720 what we do all the time. We renarrate our experiences. 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.880 We create these narratives and renarrate constantly. And that's what 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.080 having a sense of self is is a narration about 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.040 who we are. And it's just a constantly moving target. 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.480 And one of the things we concluded was, well, maybe 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.119 emotion systems would be the systems that are generating a 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:47.520 lot of these unconsciously controlled behaviors. Emotion, emotion, So um, 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:49.159 you know, I said, well that's what I want to study. 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.960 When I leave your lave, I'm gonna go study emotions. 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:54.720 And the only way to do that really was to 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.800 study animals, um, not not to understand their emotions per se, 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.760 but to understand these behaviors and the circuits in the 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:05.119 brain that might be controlling these behaviors. So, as a 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:08.200 long way of telling you what you asked about, what 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.840 I did was I adopted a procedure that was well 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:15.280 known and well characterized from behaviorist times and psychology, where 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:19.040 they created all kinds of Pavlovian and instrumental conditioning tests 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.600 to study animal behavior. While I use this Pavlovian fear 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.080 conditioning task, which was you know, kind of stock in 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.159 trade of the field. UM. And the reason it seems 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:31.639 so good is because you could take a stimulus that 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.679 had no meaning for the animal or rat, give it 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.560 one stimulus, one tone, for example, pair that with a 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.520 mild electric shock one time, and then every time later 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:44.920 that the red herd that stimulus, it would freeze, and 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.960 blood pressure and heart rate to go up, stress hormones 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.040 would be released, all the same things that would happen 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:53.440 in a human. So even though humans have different things 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.359 that are threatening them and upsetting them, the way the 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:58.560 brain responds is kind of similar in a rat in 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:00.639 a human. And you were the us to do the 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.359 rap thing, right, I know you're quite famous. Well, uh, 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:08.520 I was the first to implicate the amygdala. Well, there 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:10.520 was another guy working at the same time where there 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:12.920 were two of us at the time, actually three, I 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:14.760 guess you could say. When there was it was a 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:18.920 trio that The first Society Neuroscience meeting where I presented 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.840 any and that's the big meeting for neuroscientists, UM where 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.679 I presented any of this stuff on the amygdala was 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.320 in I don't on nineteen eighty seven or something like 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.360 the eighties, six, eight seven, And there were two other 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.399 guys and because they put all the relevant posters together 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.240 there Mike Davis was on this side, Bruce Calp was 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.440 on this side, and we're kind of looking at each other. 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:43.719 I thought I was the only one doing this, you know, 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:47.160 and so um, we kind of became friends and colleagues 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:50.440 and competitors and all that stuff. Um, but we kind 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:52.800 of set the tone of the field because we were 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:56.480 all doing Pavlovian conditioning. We're all interested in the amygdala. 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.919 And the reason you said, well you were, you're responsible 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:01.560 of putting this out in the poll. Like I wrote 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:05.320 a book called The Emotional Brain in nine that summarized 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:07.280 all of our work that was going all the work 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:10.520 was being done at the time on this basically US three. 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:12.720 And then some other people were coming in at that time. 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:19.240 And so I got the reputation for having, um, you know, 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.159 at least put this on the map in a sense. 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:24.240 Wasn't that I discovered the amygdala. People have known about 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:27.600 the amygdala and you know, various things for a long time, 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:31.800 but the circuitry how the stimulus gets there and gets 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.879 out was unknown, and that's what we contributed and the 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:36.960 emotional part two, because I know that I had read 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:42.560 that in the past, um, you know, like in the seventies. Um, 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:44.359 And this is where it gets like I understand it, 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:46.920 but it's hard to say, like emotion was being thought 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:51.520 of like a subjective conscious experience, and like psychology is 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:55.080 perception and memory, and you could learn a lot about 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.840 the way the brain processes by doing like animal experiments, 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.199 but there's more to it because we're not animal. But 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:05.879 then there's an argument about, um, what consciousness is and 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:09.600 isn't and what creates it? Right? Is that kind of 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:12.439 so let me rephrase you now, yeah, yeah, yeah, please 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:16.680 correct the podcaster because I don't know what I'm saying, 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:20.560 but I think I get it. Well. You know, we 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:25.280 had this procedure called fear conditioning. So if you're if 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:28.880 you're doing fear conditioning, that implies your conditioning the state 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:31.200 of fear. So then the question is what is the 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:35.920 state of fear? And all these people who had been 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:40.640 using this procedure had a behaviorist background in one way 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:45.880 or another. Behaviorist, of course, eliminated all subjective experience in psychology. 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:48.000 There was no they weren't No one was allowed to 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:52.399 talk about consciousness for decades, from the nineteen fifteen to 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:56.159 nineteen eighty or maybe even later. You know, it's like 0:23:56.359 --> 0:24:00.359 everything was shut down. There's just about behavior um and 0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:04.560 so fear was not a subject of experience for behaviors. 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:08.159 It was a relationship between a dangerous stimulus and a response. 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:13.000 So then some behaviors said, well, in the brain, there 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:16.840 must be something that is connecting that that stimulus in 0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:21.040 that response, and so there must be a circuit, and 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:24.240 that circuit became a fear circuit, because fear would be 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:27.600 what would connect the stimulus in the response. Now, from 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:32.159 my splip brain work, going back, the idea that I 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:35.040 had at the very beginning and that I have had 0:24:35.119 --> 0:24:37.880 ever since, although it wasn't as clear as I could 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:42.200 have been, is that the conscious experience of an emotion, 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:45.840 or of any kind of conscious experience is a cognitive 0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:49.560 interpretation of the situation that we're in. It's not an 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:54.440 innate state. But the idea that you have a fierce 0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:58.080 circuit that we've inherited from our animal ancestors, as Darwin 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.040 gave us. That gave Darwin gave us that idea. Darwin 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:05.080 was a great biologist, but it's been said he was 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:08.760 not so hot a psychologist, but he paved the way 0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:13.159 and made the psychology of emotion this tradition of having 0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:18.720 inherited emotions from animals. Now really all you could see 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:22.120 in an animal, whether you're Darwin or me or anybody else, 0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:26.520 all you can see is their behavior. So from imagine 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:28.320 you see a dog that's been hit by a car 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:31.240 and it's riding on the side of the road and screaming, 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:35.600 and of course you project feelings onto that the guy. 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:37.960 The dog is in pain. He's yes, the dog is 0:25:37.960 --> 0:25:40.639 in pain, but you're not seeing the dog's pain. All 0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:44.399 You're seeing his reflexes. You know, all this shaking and crying. 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:48.080 Those are just innate responses. But that is not what 0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:51.960 reveals the essence of pain or fear or anything else. 0:25:52.640 --> 0:25:58.119 It reveals It reveals these innate responses. Yea. So here's 0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:02.679 the deal. So if if the amygdala was literally a 0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:05.320 fear center, as many people have thought, and as I 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:08.639 was introduced over the decades as having discovered the amygdala 0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:11.040 makes us feel fear, and you know, for years I 0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:13.960 just dismissed it. It doesn't matter. I'm just doing the research. 0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:17.879 But eventually it started to bother. But let's say, given 0:26:18.080 --> 0:26:21.640 this idea that the amygdalus of fear center. Think about this, 0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:25.720 So if I present a stimulus to you subliminally, that 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:28.560 means you don't know what the stimulus is, but it 0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:31.240 goes into your brain. And if it's a picture, say 0:26:31.240 --> 0:26:33.280 of a snake or something, it will go to your brain. 0:26:33.680 --> 0:26:37.080 Your amygdala will be activated because we can image your 0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:39.000 brain while and you're looking at this, and you see 0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:43.840 your your amygdala is activated, your heart beat is is increased, 0:26:43.840 --> 0:26:47.600 your palms are sweating, and so forth. But you don't 0:26:47.600 --> 0:26:50.560 feel fear. You don't even know the stimulus is there. 0:26:50.600 --> 0:26:52.439 And you say, well, do you feel anything that you 0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:55.240 say no? Did you say anything? You say no. So 0:26:56.240 --> 0:27:01.200 the amygdala is responding to danger nonconsciously. There's no subjective 0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:04.159 fear in the amygdala that is connecting the stimulus to 0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:09.480 the response. So we when we're afraid, Let's say we're 0:27:09.560 --> 0:27:12.320 running from danger and running from a bear face William 0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:16.400 James idea, you're running from a bear. Um, So are 0:27:16.440 --> 0:27:19.280 you running from the bear because you're afraid or is 0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:24.080 there some other reason? So the fact is because we 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:28.119 expect that when we're running from a bear it's because 0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:31.639 we're afraid. That's what we come to think about, because 0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:34.080 we've been told that all our life that you know, 0:27:34.200 --> 0:27:38.080 fear is the reason we do that. Um. But really, 0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:41.200 what is going on in your brain is that there's 0:27:41.200 --> 0:27:44.359 a stimulus that goes into your brain. It goes to 0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:47.840 the amygdala and causes the behavioral responses like freezing and 0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:50.840 so forth and running away, But it goes to your 0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:54.879 cerebral cortex, in fact, to your prefrontal cortex, and that's 0:27:54.920 --> 0:28:00.320 where you construct this cognitive interpretation of the situation. Given 0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:04.280 that you're unconsciously triggered to run away because the amygdal 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:06.919 is activated, just like to splip brain patient. You know 0:28:07.440 --> 0:28:12.240 you you respond automatically, and then you cognitively interpret that as, oh, 0:28:12.280 --> 0:28:17.560 I'm afraid because you have in your brain what's called schema. 0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:21.520 These are like memories, collections of memories about topics. You 0:28:21.560 --> 0:28:24.320 have a schema about who you are, everything you know 0:28:24.359 --> 0:28:27.720 about yourself, and all the good stuff you like about 0:28:27.720 --> 0:28:31.120 yourself and stuff you hate about yourself, stuff you'd rather 0:28:31.200 --> 0:28:33.480 be than who you are, blah blah blah, everything you 0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:37.040 know about yourself. Same thing with emotions fear. You have 0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:40.040 a fear schema, everything about danger and fear and all 0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:43.000 that's bundle into that and all you need is a 0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:45.960 little piece of information like Okay, there's a snake at 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:49.479 my feet and bound. That schema is patterned, completed, and 0:28:49.520 --> 0:28:53.120 that is presented into your conscious mind as fear. So 0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:58.400 that's why you feel fear, because you have cognitively conveyed 0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:02.200 that information into your con is mine. So every conscious 0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:06.520 experience until the last micro second of it becoming conscious 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:12.480 is unconscious. It's a cognitive stream of information, and sometimes 0:29:12.520 --> 0:29:15.240 that stream crosses the finish line and makes you conscious, 0:29:15.240 --> 0:29:18.240 and other times it doesn't. So I guess my question is, 0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:21.400 it doesn't mean just because you suddenly have your first 0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:24.440 conscious thought about what the stimulus represents, it doesn't mean 0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:27.240 that's right either. Is that correct? It doesn't mean it's right, 0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:30.480 I mean, but what it means is you know, if 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:34.560 you have that feeling, that is your feeling. Nobody can 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:37.760 tell you you didn't have that right, it's it's your 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:41.000 it's incorrigible. You may be wrong to have that feeling, 0:29:41.080 --> 0:29:46.040 and in some social morals you know, ethical sense of something, 0:29:47.080 --> 0:29:49.400 But if that's what you felt, that's what you felt. 0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:51.920 There's no going back on that. And do you mean 0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:54.600 feeling by sensation or do you mean emotional feeling? No 0:29:54.680 --> 0:29:58.760 emotional feelings. So if you feel fear and your partner says, oh, 0:29:58.840 --> 0:30:03.200 you're you're not afraid, you angry, you know, or something like, um, 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:06.520 they don't know what's what you felt? Right, maybe you 0:30:06.560 --> 0:30:11.240 should have been angry, but are jealous or you know whatever. 0:30:12.120 --> 0:30:15.040 But what you felt is what you felt. And so 0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:17.680 that's why I think this. You know this, You have 0:30:17.760 --> 0:30:21.920 this preconscious processing and that depending on how the schema 0:30:22.000 --> 0:30:26.840 are activated and and sort of pattern completed into an experience, 0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:29.400 is what you feel. And then that can change in 0:30:29.440 --> 0:30:32.640 the microsecond again, you know, because emotions are dynamic, they 0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:35.560 don't it's not just like you're locked in. As the 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:39.080 situation changes, you have to reevaluate and you re experience 0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:41.640 something new. The fear goes from anger to jealousy. And 0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:48.240 we'll continue the interview on the flip side of a 0:30:48.320 --> 0:30:58.360 quick message from our sponsors. So if a magdala isn't 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:02.760 the fear center, it's just a part of it. Well, 0:31:02.960 --> 0:31:06.760 so that the brain doesn't really have psychological centers in 0:31:06.800 --> 0:31:11.920 the first place, right, So, and anything is a product 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:15.200 of a complex circuit that spans all kinds of brain areas. 0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:17.800 So you know, you start at the eye, and that's 0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:20.600 going to go into the brain and go to the cortex, 0:31:20.680 --> 0:31:22.280 and it's going to go to the amygdala, and then 0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:24.640 we'll go to the prefinal cortex and go all over. 0:31:25.400 --> 0:31:29.000 And when let's say, okay, let's just take simplify, we've 0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:32.240 got a stimulus that's going to the amygdala causing you 0:31:32.320 --> 0:31:36.600 to uh, your arousal to kick in and you're gonna 0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:40.120 now have your panic attack. Is cognitively you've interpreted that 0:31:40.200 --> 0:31:44.640 through the prefonal cortex. That's what's going on, um. But 0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:50.840 the fact that the arousal is in your brain activating 0:31:50.880 --> 0:31:56.440 circuits that amplify brain activity and attention, and your brain 0:31:56.480 --> 0:32:01.600 arousal uh through circuits that are flooding your cerebral cortex 0:32:01.680 --> 0:32:05.320 with nora ephron and seratonin and dopamine and all that. 0:32:05.400 --> 0:32:10.280 So you're you're consciously being very alert now. So there's 0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:14.400 a feedback between the behavioral output there and you know 0:32:14.440 --> 0:32:16.840 what the amygdala is doing and what the cortex is doing, 0:32:16.840 --> 0:32:21.000 so they're not completely different. But the content of the emotion, 0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:24.520 what the emotion is not determined by that low level 0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:28.400 information from the amygdala. That's that's kind of like, Okay, 0:32:28.400 --> 0:32:31.840 you go into a restaurant in Park Slope and it's 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:36.040 the music is too loud. Maybe more like Manhattan, but whatever, 0:32:36.520 --> 0:32:40.080 so that music is too loud. I'm in Williamsburg, so 0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:42.840 it's always too loud. It's like the New Vegas. It's 0:32:42.880 --> 0:32:48.520 always something that's streets. It's New York's Bourbon streets. Anyway, 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:50.760 you go into a bar restaurant and the music is 0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:53.440 too loud, and so you know you're a certain aids, 0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:54.960 so you ask the way to to turn it down, 0:32:55.080 --> 0:32:58.880 and they turn it down. It's the same annoying heavy 0:32:58.920 --> 0:33:01.760 metal song. It's just less annoying when you've turned down 0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:05.200 the volume. And so the same thing with emotions. I 0:33:05.240 --> 0:33:08.560 think that the arousal and so forth doesn't tell you 0:33:08.960 --> 0:33:12.800 what you're experiencing. It just tells you that you know 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:16.640 it's it's unpleased. You know it's it's too much, and 0:33:16.720 --> 0:33:20.800 so you can turn it down through meditation, you can 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:23.680 through whatever you know, if you can get that drugs, 0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:27.360 whatever you can do, you you turn that down and 0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:31.040 then it's less annoying. It's it's less irritating to have 0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:34.720 those kinds of emotions. So, you know the problem with 0:33:34.760 --> 0:33:40.040 medications though, is that imagine how these drugs are developed. 0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:42.680 You have a drug company that has a bunch of 0:33:42.760 --> 0:33:47.000 rats or mice, and they put them through these behavioral 0:33:47.000 --> 0:33:51.120 tests like Pablovian fear conditioning or you know, barious avoidance 0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:55.920 tests and so forth, and they find a drug that 0:33:55.960 --> 0:34:00.920 makes the animal less timid, in other words, are explored toward. 0:34:01.640 --> 0:34:07.760 And so the assumption is what we inherited fear from 0:34:07.960 --> 0:34:12.480 rats for, not rats, for from our our mammalian ancestors. Uh. 0:34:12.520 --> 0:34:16.360 And so if a rat is freezing less when it 0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:20.320 has the drug, it's because it's less afraid or less anxious. Therefore, 0:34:20.360 --> 0:34:21.919 when we give the drug to a human, they should 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:24.880 be less afraid, less ancious. But what you find is 0:34:24.880 --> 0:34:28.680 instead is that the person with social anxiety on the 0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:31.840 medication finds it a little easier to go to the party. 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:36.520 They're a little less timid, little less avoidant. But when 0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:39.399 they get to the party, they're still, you know, very 0:34:39.520 --> 0:34:43.480 kind of anxious. So if the psychiatrist had said okay, 0:34:43.880 --> 0:34:46.480 instead of saying, this is a medication that will make 0:34:46.520 --> 0:34:49.759 you less anxious. If the psychiatrist it's a this is 0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:54.879 a medication that will um attack your symptoms of arousal 0:34:55.080 --> 0:34:57.640 and avoidance and so forth, it will be easier to 0:34:57.680 --> 0:35:01.200 go to the party and then while there, if you 0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:04.640 know that all this arousal and stuff is part of 0:35:05.080 --> 0:35:09.560 just the the underlying machinery of of your problem, you 0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:13.239 can then use that knowledge and use the medication to 0:35:13.280 --> 0:35:15.600 reduce your arouse a little bit, and use that knowledge 0:35:16.040 --> 0:35:19.600 to then go in, spend a few minutes at the party. 0:35:20.200 --> 0:35:22.120 If it's too much, step out for a little while, 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:24.279 if you smoke or have a smoke, or go to 0:35:24.360 --> 0:35:27.120 the bathroom, do something, get out, and then go back 0:35:27.160 --> 0:35:31.400 in and you'll be able to um. You'll find that 0:35:31.480 --> 0:35:33.960 this allows you to cope with your situation. You've been 0:35:34.000 --> 0:35:36.600 anxious all your life, You're probably always going to be 0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:39.959 somewhat anxious. But if you can bring these symptoms, these 0:35:40.040 --> 0:35:43.759 physiological and behavioral symptoms under control, it's gonna be less 0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:46.720 of a problem for you. So when you put rats 0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:49.680 and mice through these things, what you're doing is activating 0:35:49.719 --> 0:35:53.080 their migdal and other subcortical circuits to control these behaviors. 0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:57.360 But if a drug is doing that and not changing 0:35:57.360 --> 0:36:00.600 your subjective experience. It's not doing what you want. I mean, 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:03.439 it's not doing everything you want. Because if you don't 0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:06.160 feel subductively better at the end of therapy, it didn't 0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:09.400 work if you're still fearful and anxious. But if you 0:36:09.520 --> 0:36:13.960 know that fear and anxiety is not the body stuff, 0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:16.200 I mean, that's part of it. It's gonna be there, 0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:18.400 like the heavy metal music when you turn the volume 0:36:18.440 --> 0:36:20.560 that it's still going to be there, but it's gonna 0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:23.160 You're gonna be better able to cope with the situation 0:36:23.239 --> 0:36:25.760 if you turn the volume down through meditation or drugs 0:36:25.840 --> 0:36:30.040 or whatever. But the drugs can't help the kind of 0:36:30.239 --> 0:36:32.760 subjective emotional part where you show up at the party, 0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:36.879 you're having the same stimulus and you might be like, oh, 0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:38.600 why aren't I better? I thought this was supposed to 0:36:38.680 --> 0:36:40.759 not make me hate this? So is that where the 0:36:40.760 --> 0:36:43.279 problem comes in is like they're judging their experience and 0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:46.719 what therapy isn't teaching is like you're going to still 0:36:46.760 --> 0:36:48.520 feel the same way, but you're just going to have 0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:53.440 the bandwidth two if you choose to talk to yourself differently, 0:36:53.560 --> 0:36:57.480 or is that kind of it that's exactly right, because 0:36:57.640 --> 0:37:00.640 you know, it's like you're taking anxiet idea and putting 0:37:00.680 --> 0:37:04.720 it into one package, as if there's a medication that's gonna, 0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:08.839 you know, make that whole package better. And the medications 0:37:08.840 --> 0:37:13.040 are designed to change animal behavior, so they're not gonna necessary. 0:37:13.080 --> 0:37:16.719 How would they possibly change a subjective experience? How could 0:37:16.760 --> 0:37:20.160 you take a pill? It goes into your digestive system, 0:37:20.400 --> 0:37:23.719 it's broken down, enters your bloodstream, goes to every part 0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:27.560 of your body, miraculously finds the exact right part of 0:37:27.600 --> 0:37:30.239 the brain, and all of a sudden you're better Like that. 0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:34.879 It's impossible. God, Well, okay, so go with me here 0:37:34.880 --> 0:37:38.239 in my terrible analogy. But I do want to talk 0:37:38.280 --> 0:37:41.200 about your I'm not gonna say dislike, but where you 0:37:41.239 --> 0:37:44.399 think neuroscience helps a little more than psychiatry with this stuff. 0:37:45.200 --> 0:37:48.000 But go with my terrible example. So I have been 0:37:48.040 --> 0:37:50.319 trying to get every guest to be on my side 0:37:50.320 --> 0:37:52.120 about this, but but I'm probably wrong, and that's why 0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:54.239 most of them haven't been. But I'll I'll tell you 0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:55.800 where I'm going in a second. But when I first 0:37:55.800 --> 0:37:58.160 first first first went to therapy, I don't know I 0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:05.239 was to whatever. I. I had had undiagnosed panic attacks 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.680 and anxiety for years and when I went what she 0:38:08.760 --> 0:38:10.600 said at the time was mind blowing. Now I found 0:38:10.600 --> 0:38:14.760 a very annoying, but I got the old your adrenaline 0:38:14.840 --> 0:38:16.719 is going your fear or whatever you want to say. 0:38:16.719 --> 0:38:20.839 She the fear the thing everything that you guys are 0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:23.240 doing to the rats, you know, stimulating them and they're freezing. 0:38:23.680 --> 0:38:27.640 So this is an old caveman instinct. And when we 0:38:27.640 --> 0:38:32.800 were running from the blank that was chasing us, Uh, 0:38:32.960 --> 0:38:36.799 we needed that fear because that fear told us to run, 0:38:37.160 --> 0:38:39.120 and that's how we saved our lives. And that's how 0:38:39.160 --> 0:38:42.400 we evolved. Okay, And I kept being like a first 0:38:42.400 --> 0:38:44.759 I was blown away, and she's like, so we just 0:38:44.800 --> 0:38:47.640 have some old wiring and so you know, there's nothing 0:38:47.760 --> 0:38:51.399 chasing you. There's no wild board chasing you. So now 0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:54.840 you can use your brain to calm yourself down cognitive 0:38:54.840 --> 0:38:59.920 behavior therapy. But I've always been like, Okay, I understand 0:39:00.400 --> 0:39:04.880 that a cave person probably ran from a large animal, 0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:06.680 but we don't know. We didn't talk to any of 0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:09.319 these people. They didn't leave a diary, So I'm saying, like, 0:39:09.480 --> 0:39:11.399 how are we to say, let me put it this way. 0:39:11.640 --> 0:39:13.839 I'm at the doctor and they hit my knee with 0:39:13.880 --> 0:39:17.160 the little reflex thing, and I kicked because it's a reflex. Now, 0:39:17.200 --> 0:39:20.239 if somehow that practice goes out of style and no 0:39:20.280 --> 0:39:22.760 one does it again for a thousand years, and somebody 0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:26.319 tells the story, well, Bobby, humans used to have their 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:28.719 knee banged on by a doctor and they kick because 0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:31.279 they were so afraid of the doctor. And it's like, no, no, 0:39:31.680 --> 0:39:34.640 there was no emotion. I kicked because it was a reflex. 0:39:34.719 --> 0:39:37.160 So when I'm told that the cave people were running 0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:39.600 from animals because they were afraid and that I need 0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:42.840 that fear to keep me alive, I'm telling you there's 0:39:42.920 --> 0:39:46.920 not that's not right. I know that we cannot um 0:39:47.080 --> 0:39:50.840 decide that cave people ran from the emotion of fear. 0:39:50.960 --> 0:39:53.960 I feel like you're you're saying it's a it's a 0:39:55.920 --> 0:39:59.600 not a reflex, But like that amygdala says, run and 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:01.600 then maybe you can put the story over. And I'm 0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:03.680 running because I'm afraid, or I'm running because I need 0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:05.480 to stay alive, But you might not even be afraid, 0:40:05.520 --> 0:40:07.920 like if you're trying to save your own life. In 0:40:07.920 --> 0:40:09.400 other words, they were trying to tell me that this 0:40:09.480 --> 0:40:13.839 emotion called fear made people run, and I that's where 0:40:13.840 --> 0:40:18.359 they lost foot set me too. So so I'm saying 0:40:19.120 --> 0:40:21.640 because I'm saying, like, you guys are telling me this 0:40:21.719 --> 0:40:24.040 is an old chemical thing for my brain, but then 0:40:24.080 --> 0:40:25.920 you're switching it up and saying in the middle of 0:40:25.960 --> 0:40:28.799 the same sentence, fear made them run. And I'm like, well, 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:31.239 that's not a chemical. And people would be like and 0:40:31.280 --> 0:40:33.600 they would get you know, and I I They're like, 0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:35.759 you're trying to undo this so you can hold onto 0:40:35.760 --> 0:40:37.279 your panic, And I was like, I just want you 0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:40.800 to make sense, and I keep begging people, won't anyone. 0:40:41.480 --> 0:40:45.160 I'm so done with this caveman thing. It's not accurate 0:40:45.200 --> 0:40:47.440 and I don't have the reasons for it because I'm 0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:50.320 just a comedian with a podcast. But if you call bullshit, 0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:52.960 tell me why in your smart way, because I don't 0:40:52.960 --> 0:40:54.279 know how to say it. Well, I don't know if 0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:56.880 I'm smart, but here's my way. Well, so no more 0:40:56.880 --> 0:40:59.120 about it than me. I'll tell you that. Um. So 0:41:01.200 --> 0:41:04.239 this goes back to why do we run? Because a 0:41:04.360 --> 0:41:08.680 stimulus activates these circuits in the brain at a very 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:13.120 low level that control these automatic responses. So what the 0:41:13.160 --> 0:41:18.400 amygdala has are in age circuits that detect and respond 0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:24.000 to danger. So that will trigger you know, fleeing, freezing 0:41:24.400 --> 0:41:27.680 so called you flights, light, that kind of stuff. But 0:41:27.760 --> 0:41:31.759 that's not the fear. Fear is the cognitive interpretation of 0:41:31.800 --> 0:41:35.880 the situation. And you know, it's the cave men, you know, 0:41:35.960 --> 0:41:40.640 cave men, cave people were people, they were humans, so 0:41:40.960 --> 0:41:45.080 they had some kind of conscious awareness, you know, and 0:41:45.160 --> 0:41:48.880 so in parallel they were afraid. But the story develops 0:41:48.920 --> 0:41:52.440 out of their folk psychology that the reason we rans 0:41:52.560 --> 0:41:55.640 because we were afraid, and that's what gets passed on 0:41:55.840 --> 0:41:59.480 through the millennia too down to us. We're told that 0:41:59.840 --> 0:42:03.319 the reason we run from dangerous because we're afraid. But 0:42:03.400 --> 0:42:09.400 if you look at the research on fear and behavior responses, 0:42:09.719 --> 0:42:13.360 there's a whole research on what's called discordance, which means 0:42:13.400 --> 0:42:19.120 that behavioral and physiological responses don't necessarily line up with 0:42:19.400 --> 0:42:24.680 how afraid you are. You could be very afraid psychologically 0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:32.000 consciously and you're flatlining, or you can be highly highly 0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:35.839 aroused and not afraid at all. You know, so you 0:42:35.920 --> 0:42:38.600 can't use you know, you can't just measure heart rate 0:42:38.640 --> 0:42:43.520 in someone and say that's fear, that's wrong. You have 0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:48.279 to Yeah. We wrote this paper recently called putting the 0:42:48.360 --> 0:42:51.799 Mental back in the Mental Disorders, and the purpose of 0:42:51.840 --> 0:42:57.120 that was that psychiatry since the nineteen forties and fifties 0:42:57.719 --> 0:43:02.160 UM has been on this road to its objectifying everything. 0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:07.400 It started as a response a way of putting Freud 0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:10.440 in the rear view mirror that you know, okay, you've got. 0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:14.840 Freud was, you know, did some weird stuff kids and 0:43:14.880 --> 0:43:17.080 had all these ideas that with some of them were 0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:20.000 kind of crazy, and so they said, we don't want 0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:22.720 any part of this. So instead of just saying okay, 0:43:22.719 --> 0:43:25.960 well there were some bad parts of Freud because he 0:43:26.080 --> 0:43:29.480 was all about the subjective mind, they got rid of 0:43:29.520 --> 0:43:34.680 the entire subjective mind. Behavior is we measure anxiety as 0:43:34.680 --> 0:43:39.000 a behavioral response or physiological response, and so the drug 0:43:39.040 --> 0:43:43.520 companies brought in medications to do that. Behavioral therapy came 0:43:43.560 --> 0:43:46.080 along as well, which is that you know it's you 0:43:46.120 --> 0:43:51.759 can use Pablovian extinction to reduce UM fear because fear 0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:56.320 is a condition behavioral response UM. And then cognitive behavior 0:43:56.640 --> 0:43:59.719 therapy came along to add a cognitive component, but it 0:44:00.040 --> 0:44:05.680 quickly became over the decades, became less and less cognitive 0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:08.719 and more and more about metrics. You know, as the 0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:11.920 insurance companies took over the whole field, you had to 0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:16.160 have objective measurements, objective metrics. You could check off five 0:44:16.280 --> 0:44:20.120 boxes on a list of twenty and say, well that's anxiety. 0:44:20.160 --> 0:44:24.640 But you could have PTSD. Let's say there's twenty items 0:44:24.640 --> 0:44:26.879 you can check. If you have three or four, then 0:44:27.520 --> 0:44:29.640 I don't remember what it is. But let's say there's four. 0:44:29.760 --> 0:44:32.520 You have to have four to be have PTSD, but 0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:35.560 you can have about a thousand combinations of four to 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:39.520 make PTSD. So PTSD is a you know, just a name, 0:44:39.600 --> 0:44:43.560 an invention. It's not a thing. None of these psychological 0:44:43.640 --> 0:44:48.120 conditions are things. They're collections of symptoms that we categorize 0:44:48.160 --> 0:44:50.560 in a certain way, and we assume that there's a 0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:54.120 brain center for those categorizations, which is crazy. There's no 0:44:54.200 --> 0:44:57.520 brain center for anxiety. Anxiety is a state of mind 0:44:57.840 --> 0:45:00.960 that we can scoct on the basis of all the 0:45:01.040 --> 0:45:04.960 situational of information we have at hand. I make so 0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:09.000 much sense because you know, when I go on stage 0:45:09.040 --> 0:45:11.600 to perform a lot of times I will feel my 0:45:11.719 --> 0:45:15.360 heart racing. I notice, I shall breathing. I literally couldn't 0:45:15.400 --> 0:45:17.879 be less afraid on stage. I should be, but I'm not. 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:20.160 I mean, most normal people don't like getting up in 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:23.000 front of people. I literally don't care. To Montorval, I'm 0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:25.640 I if you measured my heart read the same way 0:45:25.680 --> 0:45:28.080 you do if you Here's how I know I'm afraid, 0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:29.960 in other words, is I don't want to do it, 0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:32.479 and I'm standing there like I can't. I can't. I can't, 0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:34.680 I can't, I can't me on stage. I'm like, oh, 0:45:34.719 --> 0:45:36.719 I feel all these things. Okay, I'm getting out there. 0:45:37.520 --> 0:45:40.120 And that's how I know that what I'm feeling isn't fear. 0:45:40.760 --> 0:45:43.959 It's just I don't know what, maybe excitement or something. Um, 0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:46.319 I don't even care, Like my brain doesn't even go 0:45:46.400 --> 0:45:48.400 cognitive in that moment. I don't even I'm not even 0:45:48.440 --> 0:45:50.799 interested in figuring it out because one thing I know 0:45:50.920 --> 0:45:52.600 is I'm not afraid. So if I'm not afraid, I'm 0:45:52.640 --> 0:45:55.520 basically not interested. Um, because if I'm afraid, I have 0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:57.080 to do something about it. If I'm not, then I'm 0:45:57.080 --> 0:45:59.520 just gonna go do the show. But when I'm afraid, 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:01.320 like you try to get me on a roller coaster, 0:46:01.440 --> 0:46:03.040 or try to get me to bungee jump. I will 0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:05.400 stand there. I'll never do it, but I will feel 0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:08.960 the same physical symptoms. But but my one thing will 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:11.759 be I'm frozen, I can't, I can't. Or if I'm 0:46:11.800 --> 0:46:14.040 having a panic attack on a mall, i will run 0:46:14.120 --> 0:46:17.040 as though something is chasing me and the fear. If 0:46:17.040 --> 0:46:19.000 you stopped me right then I'd say, yes, I'm afraid. 0:46:19.040 --> 0:46:21.840 I'm afraid I'm dying and I need to be around people. 0:46:21.840 --> 0:46:23.680 I need to get close to the hospital or something. 0:46:24.040 --> 0:46:27.160 And uh, but I understand now that that so that 0:46:27.200 --> 0:46:33.920 could be categorized as anxiety because not because hopefully I'm 0:46:33.960 --> 0:46:38.040 getting this right, it's anxiety, not because I have this 0:46:38.200 --> 0:46:43.799 special disorder where my um sensations start going, my adrenaline 0:46:43.800 --> 0:46:47.000 starts pumping. That's not the anxiety. The anxiety is what 0:46:47.160 --> 0:46:50.080 I tell myself, you're dying, so you must run. But 0:46:50.440 --> 0:46:54.360 so people with anxiety disorders, the diagnosis is in is 0:46:54.400 --> 0:46:57.759 in the head of what we think. But it's not like, oh, 0:46:57.840 --> 0:46:59.839 if you get that like racing hard a lot of times, 0:46:59.840 --> 0:47:03.480 if you go on stage, you have anxiety. Anxiety is 0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:06.040 on a physical diagnosis in any way right, even though 0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:09.399 people talk about it though like it is, well that's 0:47:09.440 --> 0:47:12.600 I mean, that's just my opinion. So um, other people 0:47:12.680 --> 0:47:14.840 have a different opinion on all this stuff. I go 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:17.399 back and forth. I I changed my mind every day. 0:47:17.520 --> 0:47:20.160 I'm like, I just love to think about it. So 0:47:20.719 --> 0:47:24.919 the thing is that, certainly when you're anxious, there can 0:47:24.960 --> 0:47:29.600 be a lot of physiological symptomatology that goes with it, 0:47:30.200 --> 0:47:33.680 but you can also be anxious without that, So it's 0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:37.480 not the defining feature. The defining feature of an anxious 0:47:37.520 --> 0:47:40.480 state of mind is the state of mind itself. Now 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:43.960 the good news and that is if it's all in 0:47:43.960 --> 0:47:49.719 our minds, that means it's changeable without you too much 0:47:50.719 --> 0:47:53.560 other stuff. So, you know, I think that the way 0:47:53.600 --> 0:47:55.600 to do it is you have to take a three 0:47:55.600 --> 0:48:00.279 step approach. So first you need to retain them one 0:48:01.400 --> 0:48:03.880 and one way that you might be able to do that, 0:48:03.960 --> 0:48:06.240 And this would only work for like, you know, phobias 0:48:06.280 --> 0:48:08.880 and stuff where you have a specific stimulus, is you 0:48:08.960 --> 0:48:12.879 present the stimulus subliminally to the person. Let's say you're 0:48:12.920 --> 0:48:16.760 spider phobics. Spider phobics don't like cognitive behavior therapy because 0:48:16.760 --> 0:48:19.520 they have to be exposed to the spiders. But if 0:48:19.560 --> 0:48:24.040 you subliminally present that spider to their amygdala, you will 0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:28.279 You can extinguish the amygdala. You can weaken the amygdalas 0:48:28.440 --> 0:48:32.120 response by repeating the spider over and over again without 0:48:32.200 --> 0:48:34.279 the conscious mind having to deal with it and freak 0:48:34.320 --> 0:48:37.120 out about seeing this the spik How do you do that? 0:48:38.200 --> 0:48:43.080 Present brief flashes like super fast. You don't know it's 0:48:43.120 --> 0:48:47.480 their subliminal stimulation, and so you I don't know if 0:48:47.480 --> 0:48:49.680 this will work. This is an idea, but you just 0:48:50.000 --> 0:48:52.319 flash and flash and flash, and the person doesn't know 0:48:52.360 --> 0:48:55.520 it's there, and so your heart begins to tame the 0:48:55.560 --> 0:48:59.279 heart rate and so forth. And then once you've prepared 0:49:00.000 --> 0:49:03.000 the amygdala that way, you can now turn to the 0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:07.520 hippo campus and memories. So um, you've got in addition 0:49:07.560 --> 0:49:10.840 to implicit memories controlled by the amygdala. You know, you 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:13.640 see the spider in your heart will beat. You can 0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:19.399 weaken that through the extinction subconscious, extinction sublimeral. But now 0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:22.680 you can you've prepared the rest of the brain to 0:49:22.760 --> 0:49:25.319 deal with the information. So through the hippo campus you 0:49:25.360 --> 0:49:29.440 now can change memories about spiders and things you know 0:49:29.480 --> 0:49:34.120 about spiders and things that your relationship to spiders and 0:49:34.160 --> 0:49:37.400 all of that. So now you've prepared two parts of 0:49:37.440 --> 0:49:41.240 the brain in a way that you can do regular 0:49:41.280 --> 0:49:44.799 al talk therapy without having all the baggage that would 0:49:44.800 --> 0:49:47.319 get in the way of it. Interesting, So you're not 0:49:47.360 --> 0:49:51.759 opposed to talk therapy, And how else are you going 0:49:51.800 --> 0:49:53.879 to change the mind? I don't know. Well, I think 0:49:53.920 --> 0:49:56.040 that you're saying though, that like there there should be 0:49:56.080 --> 0:49:59.319 a nice understanding of neuroscience, like maybe if people read 0:49:59.360 --> 0:50:02.200 books on their own, you know, to understand the brain, 0:50:02.360 --> 0:50:04.560 um so that it's less like special to them. Is 0:50:04.760 --> 0:50:08.719 that makes sense. I think I'm one of the only 0:50:08.760 --> 0:50:14.440 neuroscientists who has these particular beliefs about that. It's all that. Ultimately, 0:50:14.440 --> 0:50:19.080 it's about the subjective experience, you know, the subjects. Neuroscientists 0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:22.480 don't like all the subjective stuff because neuroscience is an 0:50:22.960 --> 0:50:26.960 output of behaviorism. It's it's cold in a way. It's 0:50:27.000 --> 0:50:29.239 kind of like it's because we've you know, all of 0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:32.000 the people that were trained were trained by behaviors, and 0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:35.359 so that became the way that the field was was 0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:38.960 created and all the methods we use, our behaviorist methods. 0:50:39.000 --> 0:50:40.759 But it you know, It took me a long time 0:50:40.800 --> 0:50:43.040 to come around to this that if the only way 0:50:43.080 --> 0:50:47.600 to ultimately change mental experiences through mental interactions. You know, 0:50:47.640 --> 0:50:50.600 you've got to have that sort of one on one relationship, 0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:52.319 But you can't do that until you get some of 0:50:52.360 --> 0:50:55.200 the other stuff out of the way. Neuroscience is important 0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:57.600 because it can help us with the tools that get 0:50:57.680 --> 0:50:59.960 some of that stuff out of the way, but ultimately 0:51:00.040 --> 0:51:03.279 we've got to deal with it psychologically. So are there's 0:51:03.280 --> 0:51:06.000 a dumb question, but are our emotions real? Does that 0:51:06.040 --> 0:51:09.840 make sense? Like? Can we can we just um narrow 0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:11.960 everything down to like it's just the brain doing a thing, 0:51:12.000 --> 0:51:13.719 and the brain is meant to keep us alive, not 0:51:14.040 --> 0:51:16.280 keep us happy. You know, all the talking points, our emotions, 0:51:16.280 --> 0:51:19.400 emotions are real, I mean they there. Every thought you 0:51:19.480 --> 0:51:22.680 have is real to you, and that's where that's where 0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:27.560 our reality is. Our conscious minds create reality and that 0:51:27.920 --> 0:51:30.200 if that's my reality, then that's where we have to, 0:51:30.360 --> 0:51:32.279 you know, work on changing it. But all of that 0:51:32.360 --> 0:51:35.320 other stuff has to be dealt with and tame before 0:51:35.360 --> 0:51:37.359 you can really deal with that, because otherwise it will 0:51:37.440 --> 0:51:39.520 keep getting in the way. You know, if you let's 0:51:39.520 --> 0:51:44.239 say you you just talk therapy. You just change, um, 0:51:44.280 --> 0:51:47.360 you know, the person's relationship to all of this. Well, 0:51:47.480 --> 0:51:50.719 every time the spider comes along, it's going to reactivate 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:53.480 the whole stuff that that you've kind of like talked about. 0:51:53.920 --> 0:51:57.360 So you've got to get rid of that underlying stuff 0:51:57.719 --> 0:52:00.480 so that you're now ready to talk about it and 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:05.800 can support a persistence in the future. Um that doesn't 0:52:05.840 --> 0:52:08.320 involve all that stuff. You've got to shape the mind 0:52:09.239 --> 0:52:12.560 and allow it to do what it can do, but 0:52:12.640 --> 0:52:14.600 you've got to get rid of you've got to control 0:52:14.840 --> 0:52:20.520 the other stuff to allow that to happen. Anxiety bites 0:52:20.560 --> 0:52:23.359 will be right back after a quick little message from 0:52:23.360 --> 0:52:32.840 one of our sponsors. So going back to the person 0:52:32.880 --> 0:52:37.239 that was having the split brain Uh experience, I'm so 0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:40.000 obsessed with this. So back to the guy who you 0:52:40.120 --> 0:52:42.440 held up a sign that said stand, and he stood 0:52:42.480 --> 0:52:43.879 and then said, well I stood because I just sort 0:52:43.920 --> 0:52:47.839 I flashed it through these subliminal presentations. Oh, I'm sorry, 0:52:47.840 --> 0:52:49.560 I don't think I quite understood at the beginning it 0:52:49.600 --> 0:52:53.120 was subliminal. Okay, Well it was actually it was you 0:52:53.160 --> 0:52:55.120 know it was it was not that short, so it 0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:59.719 was three hundred milliseconds rather than thirty milliseconds for subliminal, 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:02.000 but it was going to his right hemisphere, which couldn't 0:53:02.040 --> 0:53:04.400 talk and couldn't communicate with the left hemisphere, so it 0:53:04.440 --> 0:53:07.200 was subliminal to the left hemisphere. I understand. Okay, that 0:53:07.239 --> 0:53:11.080 makes total sense. So in that sense though, um, is 0:53:11.080 --> 0:53:14.320 he having an emotion that makes sense? Like or is 0:53:14.360 --> 0:53:16.480 that person able to have emotions if their two sides 0:53:16.480 --> 0:53:20.279 aren't connected. Yes, they are, So the left hemisphere had 0:53:20.520 --> 0:53:23.680 a rich emotional life, um that he could talk about. 0:53:24.280 --> 0:53:28.640 It's much harder to probe the the right hemisphere because 0:53:28.680 --> 0:53:32.719 there's only one patient of all the patients that I'm 0:53:32.760 --> 0:53:35.840 aware of, that could read in the right hemisphere like this, 0:53:36.440 --> 0:53:38.239 got it, And so it was only one that we 0:53:38.239 --> 0:53:40.200 could test this. So it might all be bogus because 0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:43.480 it's all based on one patient. But the importance of 0:53:43.520 --> 0:53:46.240 it to me was that it stimulated my thought process 0:53:46.320 --> 0:53:51.680 is about how cognition, cognitive interpretations of situations are the 0:53:51.719 --> 0:53:54.200 basis of our narratives, and the narratives are who we 0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:58.040 are ultimately. I love that because yeah, I mean you 0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:00.400 just you know, I know that they're us have to 0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:02.480 keep it simple, and they just want to assure you 0:54:02.480 --> 0:54:04.279 that you're normal. But like all this talk of like, 0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:06.080 well they did the study on animals, and I'm like, 0:54:06.080 --> 0:54:08.279 I know, I'm not the animals, So what am I 0:54:08.280 --> 0:54:11.520 supposed to do with these thoughts? And you know, and 0:54:11.520 --> 0:54:13.560 then the thoughts feedback into the body and then it's 0:54:13.560 --> 0:54:15.840 like that loop of like fear and adrenaline. The animal 0:54:15.880 --> 0:54:20.000 behavior studies and physiology studies are crucial to the development 0:54:20.040 --> 0:54:23.400 of medications that can change behavior in physiology, but they 0:54:23.400 --> 0:54:28.000 can't change subjective experience. So in my last question, I'll 0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:33.200 I'll leave you with this thought. I have a thought 0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:36.719 to leave you with. I. First of all, I mean, 0:54:37.120 --> 0:54:40.480 this is everyone out there, this is scratching the surface. 0:54:40.680 --> 0:54:42.520 And I know you have a book called Anxious, but 0:54:42.600 --> 0:54:45.600 your most recent book, um, is called The Deep History 0:54:45.640 --> 0:54:47.719 of Ourselves, the four billion year story of how we 0:54:47.760 --> 0:54:51.879 got conscious brains? And um, what I want to ask 0:54:51.920 --> 0:54:56.480 you about that is, is there another word? Does conscious 0:54:56.560 --> 0:55:01.359 mean anything more than what we were talking about? Like 0:55:01.400 --> 0:55:04.640 a thought that is obvious to you. It's not your 0:55:04.680 --> 0:55:07.520 subconscious you know you're thinking it is it? Conscious has 0:55:07.560 --> 0:55:10.799 nothing to It's not an emotion. It's not emotion, right, Well, 0:55:11.080 --> 0:55:15.680 your emotions are conscious states that's true, right, but uh, 0:55:16.200 --> 0:55:19.560 but scientifically, when you say conscious, you're not like secretly 0:55:19.600 --> 0:55:22.359 saying emotion. You're just saying any state you're aware of. Yes, 0:55:22.560 --> 0:55:25.799 So you know this is this goes back to the 0:55:25.880 --> 0:55:29.920 mind body problem. And you know how um, the idea 0:55:29.960 --> 0:55:33.279 of a soul that is, I've been thinking soul this 0:55:33.280 --> 0:55:37.560 whole time. Go ahead, Yeah, the soul was they cart 0:55:37.600 --> 0:55:41.960 called the mind the soul. But he also is responsible 0:55:42.120 --> 0:55:47.240 for kind of introducing consciousness into philosophy, and the conscious 0:55:47.239 --> 0:55:52.600 soul was how we chose our actions. Uh, and you know, 0:55:52.760 --> 0:55:55.520 he was a Catholic and so he wanted to he 0:55:55.560 --> 0:55:59.160 said that we choose our actions m consciously and that's 0:55:59.160 --> 0:56:03.080 what you know, either gets us into heaven or hell. Um. 0:56:03.200 --> 0:56:05.360 So the soul and the mind we're kind of the 0:56:05.400 --> 0:56:09.719 same thing at some point in philosophy. And eventually, you know, 0:56:09.800 --> 0:56:13.279 the idea of a physical basis for the mind, which 0:56:13.320 --> 0:56:15.680 is still kind of hard for some people to accept. 0:56:16.120 --> 0:56:18.640 But you know, I'm a materialist. I think the mind 0:56:18.719 --> 0:56:22.799 is a physical part of the neurons and so forth. 0:56:22.840 --> 0:56:24.799 It's you know, it's a different set of neurons. You've 0:56:24.800 --> 0:56:27.319 got neurons and that are that are going to make 0:56:27.320 --> 0:56:29.440 you conscious, but you've got neurons that are also going 0:56:29.480 --> 0:56:33.200 to control your behavior unconsciously. Um, they're just two different 0:56:33.280 --> 0:56:37.120 kinds of of neural activity. Um. You know, like John 0:56:37.200 --> 0:56:39.560 Locke said that, how do I know I'm the same 0:56:39.600 --> 0:56:43.000 person today as I was, you know, and when I 0:56:43.040 --> 0:56:46.840 was a kid? It's because you have memories that ties 0:56:46.880 --> 0:56:50.759 you across time, tie you across time. And so there 0:56:50.760 --> 0:56:53.400 are three kinds of consciousness that are important. And I 0:56:53.440 --> 0:56:56.040 get this from the psychologists Endel Tolving, who I think 0:56:56.120 --> 0:56:59.160 was the you know, the smartest psychologist since William James. 0:56:59.680 --> 0:57:03.640 He's that we have something called automoetic consciousness, which is 0:57:03.640 --> 0:57:07.200 our ability to know this John Lock kind of thing, 0:57:07.200 --> 0:57:09.239 our ability to know who we are, that we had 0:57:09.280 --> 0:57:12.680 a beginning, we will have an end. No other animal 0:57:12.760 --> 0:57:14.680 knows that it had a beginning and an end. It's 0:57:14.680 --> 0:57:17.920 just in the moment, right. But we can reflect on 0:57:17.960 --> 0:57:22.240 our past and our future, and that capacity depends on 0:57:22.240 --> 0:57:27.120 our prefinal cortex. Now, the second kind of consciousness is 0:57:27.320 --> 0:57:32.480 called noetic consciousness, knowledge of factual actual you know, factual 0:57:32.480 --> 0:57:37.960 and conceptual information about the world. Probably most mammals, all 0:57:38.040 --> 0:57:42.200 mammals probably have this kind of semantic knowledge. It's nonverbal semantic, 0:57:42.240 --> 0:57:45.920 but it's semantic um. And then there's another kind of 0:57:45.920 --> 0:57:49.880 consciousness that's also shared by all mammals, called a noetic 0:57:50.000 --> 0:57:52.920 and this was the puzzling one, but in a nutshell, 0:57:53.000 --> 0:57:57.560 what it is, I think, is the sense that your 0:57:57.800 --> 0:58:01.920 mental states and body states are yours, without any content, 0:58:02.480 --> 0:58:05.439 it's just there. The reason we know this is because 0:58:05.440 --> 0:58:08.800 there are people who lose this connection to their mental 0:58:08.880 --> 0:58:12.000 and body states. They don't believe that they're theirs. They 0:58:12.000 --> 0:58:17.439 don't have that's that sense anymore. It's terrible. So what 0:58:17.480 --> 0:58:21.000 the what this a nootic consciousness does is allows your 0:58:21.040 --> 0:58:24.200 mental states to feel right. And that's not something you 0:58:24.240 --> 0:58:27.160 ever acknowledge that it feels right, only apparent when it 0:58:27.240 --> 0:58:30.280 doesn't feel right. So in these people who don't have it, 0:58:30.320 --> 0:58:34.720 then it becomes apparent that we're always feeling right, are 0:58:34.840 --> 0:58:37.560 feeling wrong if if we do something that's not quite right, 0:58:37.600 --> 0:58:41.160 we have a twinge of that wasn't you know? It's 0:58:41.200 --> 0:58:43.960 not it's not always about morals, but it's all about 0:58:44.200 --> 0:58:47.080 is it what we expect that we should think and feel? 0:58:48.200 --> 0:58:51.640 And so these three kinds of consciousness, you know, the 0:58:51.960 --> 0:58:57.280 lowest kind anoetic is said to only to be what 0:58:57.600 --> 0:59:02.080 lower mammals will have as their main way of interacting 0:59:02.080 --> 0:59:04.439 within mark they know what, you know, there's a mate 0:59:04.560 --> 0:59:08.280 or there's food. Uh and then because it feels right, 0:59:08.760 --> 0:59:12.040 but they don't have content of that feeling of rightness, 0:59:12.120 --> 0:59:15.040 so they don't know that, oh, there's my girl. You know, 0:59:15.240 --> 0:59:17.640 it's like it feels right, so then we're gonna do 0:59:17.680 --> 0:59:22.000 the thing, you know, and then they no. Eddache is 0:59:22.040 --> 0:59:25.480 something that in the most sophisticated sense, it's probably something 0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:29.240 that primates brought in more of a kind of knowledge 0:59:29.560 --> 0:59:32.439 of the world in a more sophisticated kind of way, 0:59:32.480 --> 0:59:35.640 made possible by prefinal cortex, because the kind of prefinal 0:59:35.720 --> 0:59:38.960 cortex that lower mammals have is very different from the 0:59:39.040 --> 0:59:42.520 kind that that primates have. And then automo edic again 0:59:42.560 --> 0:59:46.800 requires another kind of consciousness that's probably due to this 0:59:46.920 --> 0:59:50.480 region in the prefinal cortex that only humans have. It's 0:59:50.480 --> 0:59:54.000 a small little piece but allows you to subjectively know 0:59:54.480 --> 0:59:58.480 your experiences. So I think that's the way to think 0:59:58.480 --> 1:00:02.360 about the about what you know, what consciousness is doing 1:00:02.360 --> 1:00:06.600 in different animals. But there is still I think now 1:00:06.640 --> 1:00:11.040 again I can't prove this, uh A soul, even though 1:00:11.080 --> 1:00:13.919 it may die with the brain, because I in other words, 1:00:13.960 --> 1:00:17.080 like I'm probably just saying an individual or subjective set 1:00:17.080 --> 1:00:20.720 of feelings. But in music where they say like it's 1:00:20.720 --> 1:00:22.640 all about the notes you don't hear are jazz, I 1:00:22.640 --> 1:00:25.800 guess I feel like in this whole conversation there's been 1:00:26.320 --> 1:00:28.840 a blank space of a thing we're not saying. It's like, 1:00:29.560 --> 1:00:33.360 you know what you're talking about, subjective emotions, conscious, it's 1:00:33.400 --> 1:00:37.240 different for each person. We're not rats. I feel what's 1:00:37.280 --> 1:00:39.520 been missing is like I keep wanting to say the 1:00:39.560 --> 1:00:42.520 word soul, and when I asked about the the guy 1:00:42.560 --> 1:00:45.360 with the split brain, I'm thinking I'm saying emotions, but 1:00:45.440 --> 1:00:48.479 like I'm also kind of thinking soul, like there's a 1:00:48.600 --> 1:00:51.160 soul to us, like you can feel it, you vibe 1:00:51.160 --> 1:00:53.760 with certain people. I know it's all chemicals, but I 1:00:53.840 --> 1:00:55.400 like to use the word even though I don't think 1:00:55.440 --> 1:00:58.880 it lives on. Is there room for that in neuroscience? 1:00:59.400 --> 1:01:02.320 Well so, I think there's room for what you're talking about, 1:01:02.360 --> 1:01:04.200 But I wouldn't call it a soul because you know, 1:01:04.240 --> 1:01:07.480 I'm really strict on the language because we get so 1:01:08.640 --> 1:01:11.160 you take a word like fear and all of a sudden, 1:01:11.480 --> 1:01:14.480 you're saying, well, if this is this part detects part 1:01:14.480 --> 1:01:16.400 of the brand, detect and response to danger. It's a 1:01:16.440 --> 1:01:20.280 fear center. It acquires all the subjective baggage of fear. 1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:22.280 And I think you have the same problem with soul. 1:01:22.360 --> 1:01:26.040 But this, a noetic consciousness is what you're talking about, 1:01:26.040 --> 1:01:28.880 this low level kind of awareness of who you are 1:01:28.920 --> 1:01:31.480 without ever having to say it, and you feel right 1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:35.040 about yourself, not in a moral or good or bad sense, 1:01:35.080 --> 1:01:38.960 but that it's just you. When things break from that 1:01:39.120 --> 1:01:42.880 a noetic state of rightness, then you have to come 1:01:42.920 --> 1:01:45.280 to terms with it, you know. So you get a 1:01:45.320 --> 1:01:48.440 twinge of a noetic wrongness, and all of a sudden 1:01:48.480 --> 1:01:51.520 you have cognitive dissonance, and so you have to cognitively 1:01:52.120 --> 1:01:56.400 reinterpret your situation because it felt wrong, not and again 1:01:56.440 --> 1:01:59.360 not in a moral or just it didn't feel like 1:01:59.440 --> 1:02:02.040 what you know, really expect. So last I wanted to 1:02:02.080 --> 1:02:05.280 ask you this, um, Do you think this is a 1:02:05.320 --> 1:02:09.880 philosophy question for the neuroscientist? You know, I know all 1:02:09.960 --> 1:02:16.480 humans experience all the ranges of feelings, including anxiety. Do 1:02:16.520 --> 1:02:20.600 you think a neuroscientist is a highly sensitive person who 1:02:21.160 --> 1:02:24.520 wants to study the brain. We all want control, but 1:02:24.600 --> 1:02:27.360 you guys want the most control. You want to slay 1:02:27.440 --> 1:02:29.960 the dragon. You want to win at chess, you want 1:02:29.960 --> 1:02:33.480 to beat the computer and be like, you can't surprise me. Brain, 1:02:33.880 --> 1:02:37.040 most complicated thing on planet Earth. I just conquered you. 1:02:37.280 --> 1:02:39.800 Is there any kind of do you guys have control issues? 1:02:39.840 --> 1:02:44.920 Do you think? Why are you neuroscientists? So you know, 1:02:45.000 --> 1:02:46.720 I don't think you can put it all into a 1:02:46.760 --> 1:02:50.880 machine or I haven't need that, because you know, our 1:02:50.920 --> 1:02:54.280 conscious minds are the product of this four billion year 1:02:54.360 --> 1:02:57.880 evolutionary history, and you would have to recreate all the 1:02:57.960 --> 1:03:00.880 little steps to get it all right, because it's not 1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:03.000 just about having a let's say, okay, we know the 1:03:03.080 --> 1:03:05.320 circuit for I to know it the consciousness, and it's 1:03:05.360 --> 1:03:08.000 got like, you know, fifteen million neurons and they're connected 1:03:08.040 --> 1:03:10.680 this way. But it's not just about the connections. It's 1:03:10.680 --> 1:03:15.240 about all of the hidden molecular and genetic changes that 1:03:15.280 --> 1:03:19.000 took place over that four billion years. That and in 1:03:19.040 --> 1:03:22.080 the process, all this behavioral feedback from all of that 1:03:22.280 --> 1:03:26.320 four billion years of acting and responding. So it's not 1:03:26.440 --> 1:03:29.440 just about you know, putting a model of the circuit 1:03:29.480 --> 1:03:31.280 in the computer and all of a sudden, it's conscious. 1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:34.160 You gotta have that. You've got that long history of 1:03:34.160 --> 1:03:38.440 evolution that makes it makes this crazy thing we call consciousness. 1:03:39.080 --> 1:03:42.320 So here's my my thing for you. Um. You know 1:03:42.360 --> 1:03:46.080 you have your program here is called Anxiety Bites. Um. 1:03:46.400 --> 1:03:51.480 So we the Amictaloids, had a song that we played 1:03:51.480 --> 1:03:54.520 a lot that a lot of people like, and and 1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:58.200 it's called Anxious, And in it we have this line 1:03:59.240 --> 1:04:04.720 it sucks to be anxious, So it's like anxiety Bites, 1:04:04.760 --> 1:04:09.960 but anxiety sucks too. So oh I love it. Yeah, 1:04:10.320 --> 1:04:13.120 oh my god, we should play it. Can we play 1:04:13.160 --> 1:04:15.400 it at the end of the episode. Do we owe 1:04:15.440 --> 1:04:19.400 your royalties? Okay? Good? Oh my god, this is so exciting. 1:04:19.560 --> 1:04:23.960 Oh my god. This is our first music experience on 1:04:24.000 --> 1:04:36.000 Anxiety Bites. I love that. I hope you enjoyed my 1:04:36.080 --> 1:04:39.680 conversation with Joseph lad as much as I did. I 1:04:39.720 --> 1:04:43.080 don't know if we got the rights to play his 1:04:43.840 --> 1:04:50.080 band's song, Anxious by the Amygdaloid. So, um, even though 1:04:50.080 --> 1:04:53.480 it's his song, there's still all these kind of rights things. 1:04:53.880 --> 1:04:58.600 And so if you just heard five seconds of a 1:04:58.680 --> 1:05:01.880 song that was Anxious by the Magdelades, if you didn't, 1:05:01.880 --> 1:05:03.720 then you didn't hear it. But you can check out 1:05:03.720 --> 1:05:05.560 his band by going to the link in the show notes. 1:05:06.000 --> 1:05:08.600 And I'm still cracking up the I have this like 1:05:08.800 --> 1:05:11.440 renowned neuroscientist on and I'm like, okay, but guys, we 1:05:11.520 --> 1:05:14.040 really got to plug his band right now. Um. Here 1:05:14.080 --> 1:05:18.640 are the takeaways from my chat with Joseph lad Split 1:05:18.760 --> 1:05:22.480 brain therapy UM used to be a treatment for epilepsy, 1:05:24.480 --> 1:05:28.640 but they used it as an experiment working with people's 1:05:28.760 --> 1:05:32.440 memory and emotion. When separated from the left hemisphere, the 1:05:32.520 --> 1:05:35.600 right hemisphere of the brain can respond to stimuli even 1:05:35.600 --> 1:05:38.360 though it can't talk about it, and the left hemisphere 1:05:38.360 --> 1:05:40.800 of the brain, when separated from the right hemisphere, can 1:05:40.840 --> 1:05:44.240 be conscious and can talk about what it's experiencing. Our 1:05:44.240 --> 1:05:46.960 brain creates narratives about who we are, and that's what 1:05:47.120 --> 1:05:50.280 having a sense of self is a narration about who 1:05:50.280 --> 1:05:53.720 we are. Our emotions cannot be fully understood just by 1:05:53.760 --> 1:05:58.800 studying reactions that animals have to stimulus. The conscious experience 1:05:58.880 --> 1:06:02.400 is a cognitive and reputation of the situation we are in. 1:06:02.920 --> 1:06:06.440 It's not in innate state. Darwin gave us the idea 1:06:06.520 --> 1:06:10.440 that we have a fear circuit inserted from animal ancestors. 1:06:10.880 --> 1:06:14.760 He was a great biologist, but admittedly not a great psychologist. 1:06:15.640 --> 1:06:18.480 The tradition of thinking that we inherited emotions from animals 1:06:18.520 --> 1:06:21.440 is faulty because you can see an animal in pain 1:06:21.880 --> 1:06:25.320 and they are responding to stimuli, maybe about making noises 1:06:25.440 --> 1:06:28.840 or yelping or limping. But we as humans project our 1:06:28.880 --> 1:06:33.440 ability to have feelings about the stimuli onto what the 1:06:33.480 --> 1:06:37.320 animal is experiencing, and we are not correct about that. 1:06:38.640 --> 1:06:41.400 The amygdala can be activated when we are presented with 1:06:41.480 --> 1:06:46.000 a stimulus. It can cause an increased heartbeat, but that 1:06:46.080 --> 1:06:49.440 can be a non conscious response. The notion that we 1:06:49.560 --> 1:06:53.280 run from a bear because we're afraid is not necessarily 1:06:53.360 --> 1:06:57.880 scientifically proven. It could be just because the amygdala is stimulated, 1:06:58.200 --> 1:07:02.360 which causes a behavioral bonds. Once the stimulus goes to 1:07:02.440 --> 1:07:07.720 your cerebral cortex, that's where you construct a cognitive interpretation 1:07:07.960 --> 1:07:12.160 of the situation. We feel fear because we have cognitively 1:07:12.240 --> 1:07:19.160 conveyed that information to our conscious mind. Medication can help 1:07:19.200 --> 1:07:22.560 with some aspects of anxiety, but it would be impossible 1:07:22.600 --> 1:07:27.160 for one pill to treat the subjective personal experience of 1:07:27.320 --> 1:07:34.640 millions of people with anxiety. Our conscious minds create our reality, 1:07:34.720 --> 1:07:37.920 but that does not mean that our reality is made up. 1:07:39.080 --> 1:07:47.240 Our emotions are absolutely real as we experience them. Alrighty um, 1:07:47.360 --> 1:07:50.600 I will say, as we wrap up season one of 1:07:50.760 --> 1:07:54.280 Anxiety Bites, we just have a few more episodes left, 1:07:55.160 --> 1:07:58.560 and you certainly can send an email. I don't know 1:07:58.640 --> 1:08:01.360 if I'll be able to read on air before we 1:08:01.400 --> 1:08:05.520 wrap up your butt. Anxiety Bites weekly at gmail dot com. 1:08:05.560 --> 1:08:09.120 You can talk about the episodes you've heard, share them 1:08:09.120 --> 1:08:12.080 on social media. I always do these fun and cool 1:08:12.120 --> 1:08:15.120 audio gram clips. You can find them. They are my 1:08:15.240 --> 1:08:18.360 pinned tweets on Twitter and my handle is at Jen 1:08:18.520 --> 1:08:20.920 Kirkman j E n k I r K m A 1:08:21.080 --> 1:08:24.400 N and that is also my handle on Instagram. And again, 1:08:24.439 --> 1:08:27.160 all of this information is right in the show notes 1:08:27.479 --> 1:08:30.120 and you can click right on it. Thanks again for 1:08:30.439 --> 1:08:41.519 listening and remember Anxiety Bites, but you're in control. For 1:08:41.600 --> 1:08:44.040 more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 1:08:44.120 --> 1:08:47.080 Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 1:08:47.080 --> 1:08:47.759 favorite shows.