1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Previously on Happy Face. 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 2: My name is Lauren Bride Pacheco and I've worked with 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 2: Melissa Jasperson Moore for about four years. 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 3: My father is Keith Hunter Jesperson. He's known as the 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 3: Happy Face serial killer. 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 4: My mom had just said that her and my dad 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 4: were separating, which I didn't believe. 8 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 3: I wanted to keep like you guys as baby pictures, 9 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 3: and he chucked out all up. There was just this 10 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 3: thing that people said in the family. They would say, Oh, 11 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 3: that's just Keith, that's just how Keith is, and it 12 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 3: seemed to be acceptable. 13 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 2: One of the few people that Keith opened up to 14 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: about his childhood was psychologist Al Carlisle. 15 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 4: Any learning problems, No, not really for you intelligence. 16 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 5: I'm very intelligent, but I just didn't adapt myself to it. 17 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 3: I got pregnant my freshman year, so right after I 18 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 3: found out is when the news hit about my dad. 19 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 3: I was dating a guy named Nick. It was a 20 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 3: very dysfunctional relationship, so I felt like the only option 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 3: for me to break out of this was to not 22 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 3: have the baby. A couple months later, I got a 23 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 3: letter from my dad. He said, you're a killer, just 24 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 3: like me. He deserved to be in prison with me. 25 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, the vines in the vines, well son, you don't 26 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 6: know shine o shi oh nice. 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 3: My dad always said that he was not like his 28 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 3: dad and the way he disciplined me and my siblings. 29 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: There was a time when I was stayed out too 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 3: late and didn't come home and I worried my family, 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 3: and my dad said, you know, you went past your curfew. 32 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 3: So he made me bend over my dad and he 33 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 3: pulled my pants down so my bum was bare, and 34 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 3: he took off his leather belt and he started like 35 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 3: whipping it, you know, like slapping it, so it made 36 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 3: a slapping noise, and he kept threatening that he was 37 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 3: going to whip me with it or spank me with it, 38 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 3: and so I was sobbing and pleading with him not 39 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 3: to hit me, because like the sound alone of the 40 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 3: leather slapping was terrifying, and just being so vulnerable with 41 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 3: your tish in the air, like I knew it was 42 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 3: going to hurt really bad, and he didn't. He just 43 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 3: kept toying with the idea. 44 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 4: That he was going to hit me. 45 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: How old were you. 46 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 3: It was at the farmhouse of six, about six years old, 47 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 3: and he made sure that there was always the threat 48 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 3: of being spanked, Like he would threatened to spank us, 49 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 3: and you just needed a threaten and you'd whip up 50 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 3: real fast. I mean, because just his size and how 51 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 3: he made those sounds was terrifying. 52 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 2: He must have known the fear. 53 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, he must have. 54 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 2: For all of Melissa's happy childhood memories regarding her father, 55 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 2: darker one surfaced as our journey progressed. Although he never 56 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: physically hit them, Keith still managed to instill a sense 57 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 2: of fear in Melissa and her siblings. As the saying goes, 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: not all scars are visible. I'm Lauren Bray Pacheco. This 59 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: is happy face. 60 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 3: My dad would be home on the weekends, Saturday morning 61 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 3: and Sunday morning, Like any weekend morning, we always want 62 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 3: to wake up our dad. So we would rush the 63 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 3: bed with my mom and dad in it, and we 64 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 3: would jump on him and tackle us. And it just 65 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 3: became a whole hour of tackling and tickling while he 66 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: was trying to get out of bed. So we would 67 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: get more and more aggressive, like with our tactics, Like 68 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 3: I would get a further running start and run and 69 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 3: then jump on the bed. And then I would jump 70 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 3: on the bed and then really try to pound on 71 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 3: my dad like because he could handle it, because you 72 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 3: could see that he could. Oh, just a young kid. 73 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 3: I was like five to seven or so, like really young. 74 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 3: I just would go and jump on him and he 75 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,239 Speaker 3: could take him. My brother would get aggressive. I remember 76 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: him like elbowing him, and then my dad like pinning 77 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 3: him down and wrestling him. And with me, he pinned 78 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: me down and started tickling me, but it was to 79 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 3: the point of like I was gonna pay my pants, 80 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 3: and I kept screaming I was gonna pay my pants. 81 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 3: They kept tickling me, but it turned from like it 82 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 3: was funny, like let you go if you're like no, 83 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 3: really serious had to go, you know, you would let 84 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: your child go, But all of a sudden, it was 85 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 3: now like I control you, and it turned into like 86 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 3: now I'm sobbing because I'm it's becoming painful to be tickled. 87 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 6: You know. 88 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 2: So you'd go from laughing to crying, yeah, and then 89 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 2: would he stop. 90 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 3: He would eventually let me go, but it was when 91 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 3: he wanted to let me go. 92 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 4: That just was his. 93 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 3: Way with us. Anything I was afraid of or didn't like, 94 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 3: he made sure to push it and push me beyond 95 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 3: my comfort, just to let me know he had control. 96 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,239 Speaker 3: It may sound very harmless or little to somebody else, 97 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 3: but it was. It was a message. He was giving 98 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 3: me a message that he controls me. I mean, there's 99 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 3: so many is the little tiny lessons of that. It's 100 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 3: like touching the electric fence. So we have around the 101 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 3: perferle of the farm, we had an electric fence and 102 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 3: I asked him, Dad, is the fence on. He's like, 103 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 3: we'll touch it and find out. I touched it. And 104 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 3: when you touch it, you can't let go. Your hand 105 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 3: will let go, Like my hand I remember was on 106 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: it and it was like vibrating and I couldn't release 107 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 3: my hand because it gripped it. And he was laughing. 108 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 3: It was all to tell me that he could do 109 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 3: what he wants and that you were his yep. 110 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 5: And I had to watch my feelings around my kids. 111 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 5: I had to watch because if they did something wrong 112 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 5: and made me want to feel like punishing them because 113 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 5: I know what my dad would do to me. I 114 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 5: feel like I had to really watch myself that I 115 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 5: didn't allow myself. See here, I'm a murder and I've 116 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 5: been out here and I've been doing this. I said, 117 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 5: I've got to watch my emotions around people I love. 118 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,119 Speaker 5: There is, like you say, maybe not a controller, because 119 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 5: I'm not. There are things that made setting me off, 120 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 5: and I had to watch that. It was too easily done, 121 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 5: as times where I've gotten with people friends of mine 122 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 5: and I just sit there and said, I can't stay here. 123 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 5: You don't see it, but I do, and I'm not 124 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 5: going to stick around because I will do something about it. 125 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: Eventually. After her father's capture, enter chaotic relationship with Nick, 126 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: Melissa tried to find a sense of security and safety 127 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: and love, just a normal life. But something was always missing. 128 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: Why was that so important to you that you create 129 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: this stable home life. 130 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 3: Well, it actually goes back to the breakup with Nick. 131 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 3: When I broke up with Nick, it was a relationship 132 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 3: that I didn't want to repeat. So I made a 133 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 3: list of all the things that weren't working for me, 134 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 3: that were harmful. And I took a look at what 135 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 3: my parents' relationship was and my mom's new relationship was, 136 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 3: and I realized I didn't want to repeat that. In 137 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 3: order to do that, I had to make a list 138 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: of what wouldn't work for me. So I made this 139 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 3: checklist and I put it in my diary. And there's 140 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 3: this moment when I met Sam, and as he was talking, 141 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 3: I was checking off that list in my head of 142 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 3: all the things that I needed to ensure that I 143 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 3: didn't follow in my mom's footsteps. 144 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 2: Give me an example, what was on that list. 145 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 3: Number One, he had to be college educated. I didn't 146 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: want to live in poverty and I didn't want to 147 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 3: be in a relationship that if I was going to 148 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 3: have children with someone that it was unstable. Two travel 149 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 3: the world, had a worldview. I wanted to see the world. 150 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 3: I had this. 151 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: Stream of traveling. 152 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 3: Three that he was transparent and honest and I could 153 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 3: count on them and know that everything that he says 154 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 3: would be truthful. Those are the top ones. And I 155 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 3: first met him. The first thing he said is he's 156 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 3: in college and he's getting his degree in international relations. 157 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 3: And then he already lived in Portugal for two years. 158 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: So he, to me, was the best man that I 159 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: had ever met in Spokane. On paper, he was everything 160 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 3: that I needed. 161 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 2: The hymn Melissa refers to is Sam, her estranged husband 162 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 2: and father of her two children. We spoke to Sam 163 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 2: about how the relationship began and evolved, so tell me 164 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 2: how you and Melissa first met. How old were you 165 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 2: and where was it. 166 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: Oh, it was a while ago. 167 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 7: I was twenty five or twenty six right in there, 168 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 7: and Melissa was like twenty one, and it was pretty unique. 169 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 7: I grew up Mormon, and so every Friday there would 170 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 7: always be an activity at dance for singles. I remember 171 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 7: I had just broken up with a girl and I 172 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 7: didn't want to go out. I didn't want to go 173 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 7: hang out with anybody, and I had two roommates and 174 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 7: they wanted me out of the house. They're like, time 175 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 7: fore to go do something. We're going to go to 176 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 7: the dance. It was in West Plains in Spokane, Washington. 177 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 7: It's a big gymnasium full of people. Knew most everybody 178 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 7: there because it's all of my peers, the people I 179 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 7: hanged out with, and I was kind of reluctant to 180 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 7: even be there, but I also was enjoying the music. 181 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 7: So I went and sat up on the stage and 182 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 7: I was just watching everybody dance, and I was looking 183 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 7: around the room trying to figure out if I was going. 184 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: To date again. And then. 185 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 7: I remember it very clearly. Side doors of the gym 186 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 7: opened up and beautiful blonde walked in. Everything was dark. 187 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 7: I had never seen her before. I was very, very interested, 188 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 7: so at that moment I decided to probably be open 189 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 7: to dating again. I was sitting on the stage trying 190 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 7: to be a loner, which isn't my normal personality actually, 191 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 7: and I would just watch her mingle with some people. 192 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 7: And then after a little while she approached me. She 193 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 7: came up to me on the stage and she sat 194 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,359 Speaker 7: next to me. I was right next to the speakers, 195 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 7: so you couldn't really hear each other. So she started 196 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 7: trying to talk to me, and as she tried, I 197 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 7: moved closer to her so that we could hear each other, 198 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 7: and she started talking in my ear, and I was smitten. 199 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 7: I asked her for her phone number, and I asked 200 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 7: for a chance to be able to catch up with her, 201 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 7: and she left. 202 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: I left. I think we went to Sherry's as a group. 203 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 7: Usually after dances, as a collective Mormon group, you always 204 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 7: go like to Denny's or Sherry's or something like that. 205 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 7: And I remember the whole night, I just kind of 206 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 7: stop thinking about her, and I didn't call her for 207 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 7: like two or three days. 208 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: Was that calculated? No, I was just turned nervous. 209 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 4: It's a glow group. 210 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 8: Break, no, mm hmmm. 211 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: For Melissa, Sam's greatest appeal was that he represented everything 212 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: her father did not. 213 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 4: Were your first impressions of Sam physically, Oh, he had 214 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 4: a goateee that was kind of long, and and he 215 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 4: was wearing a leather jacket not normally like stylistically and 216 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 4: maybe as girls like we all can relate to this, 217 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 4: you're like, Oh, that's changeable, the closer changeable. 218 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 2: It's really the antithesis of your father physically though too, 219 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: and in terms of emotionally, your dad six foot six, 220 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: Sam was probably closer to five foot six. 221 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, he's five'. 222 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:33,359 Speaker 2: Six he instantly did he feel, Safe, uh, yeah because. 223 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 3: He wasn't pursuing. Me, well it felt like he wasn't 224 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 3: pursuing me at, all LIKE i had to be the. 225 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 3: Pursuer so that felt incredibly. 226 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 4: Safe. 227 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 3: Yeah he put my phone number in his flip phone 228 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 3: and then he never called, me never Did AND i 229 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 3: worked At Victoria's secret and then one day he just 230 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 3: shows up at my. 231 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: Job so she worked on. 232 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 7: The makeup side Of Victoria's, secret and SO i showed 233 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 7: up to the makeup side AND i asked for help 234 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 7: to like for a perfume or, something but really the 235 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 7: goal was to get to Meet melissa and. 236 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: SHE i don't know if she asked me or IF 237 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: i asked. HER i was, like, hey can, OH i asked? 238 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 3: HER i remember now he, says you, know, like, hey 239 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 3: you KNOW i was talking To, lisha your, friend and 240 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 3: she said that you could use a good guy in your, 241 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: life and do you want to go? 242 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 4: OUT i said, sure and SO i gave them a. 243 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 7: Day we set the date, up and then like in 244 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 7: a few days when it was supposed to, HAPPEN i 245 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 7: was trying to like make sure it was going to, 246 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 7: happen and she told me that she kind of go, 247 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 7: out like one of her friends asked her to like 248 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 7: watch their. 249 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 4: Kid SO i told him, like, oh you, KNOW i, 250 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 4: Forgot i'm. 251 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 3: Babysitting and then he THOUGHT i, was you, know making 252 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 3: up an excuse to turn him down and not to 253 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 3: go out with. Him AND i, said, well actually you. 254 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 4: Want to just come with. 255 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: Me she, goes but you're welcome to come watch the 256 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: kid with, me AND i obviously said. 257 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 8: Yes. 258 00:14:58,400 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 3: AND i just thought it was a good. Guy and 259 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: we went out To denny's where everybody hung out, like 260 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: if you didn't want your day to, end you just 261 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 3: go To denny's Or. Sherry's AND i remember we were 262 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: talking about THE i don't know WHY i came, up 263 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 3: but one of my favorite fables was The sirens, fable 264 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 3: and so we were talking about. 265 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 8: That The. 266 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 4: Sirens, YES i don't know WHY i like that, fable 267 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 4: maybe because the female house the. 268 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: Power it's, subtle but even on their first, Date melissa's 269 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: tiny exertion of control has echoes of her. 270 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 7: Father we were on our date At sherry's AND i 271 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 7: remember she did something that no other girl was capable of. 272 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 7: DOING i really detest ranch. Dressing there was no WAY 273 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 7: i was ever going to eat ranch. Dressing and she 274 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 7: was eating like a piece of, chicken and she asked 275 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 7: me to eat, it AND i told her, NO i, 276 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 7: GO i don't like ranch. 277 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: Dressing and THEN i ate ranch. 278 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 7: Dressing AND i, remember like no girl had ever had 279 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 7: that kind of power over, me AND i found it 280 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 7: really attractive. 281 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: That she didn't take no for. 282 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 2: Me did you guys get? Serious really? 283 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 7: Quickly we, did so instead of taking her, HOME i 284 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 7: took her back to my. Place and in The mormon, 285 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 7: community that's not a. Normal next STEP i took her 286 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 7: back to my, place and while we were there and 287 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 7: we didn't do, anything we made, out but still that was. 288 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: The fastest relationship That i've ever, had like to move that. 289 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: Quickly on. 290 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: Paper sam was Everything melissa would want in a, partner 291 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: but her fear of vulnerability always overshadowed her desire for. 292 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 3: Connection this is somebody who physically doesn't look like my, 293 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 3: dad doesn't act like my father in any shape or, 294 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 3: form so he felt safe in all of those. CATEGORIES 295 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: i craved to have everything THAT i was missing growing, 296 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 3: up BUT i emotionally couldn't connect to. 297 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: It what was your fear during that? 298 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 3: Time my biggest fear was that everybody would find out 299 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: about my past and that it would take this life 300 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 3: THAT i curated and make it crumble, down that it 301 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 3: would fall, apart that EVERYTHING i worked for and survived 302 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 3: for would fall, apart and that people would find out 303 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 3: That i'm just like my father AND i would lose. 304 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 3: Everything you, Know it's interesting to go back and meet 305 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 3: with people THAT i dated in the past and then 306 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 3: this to be a common thread THAT i was emotionally 307 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 3: just in the relationship that they constantly had to work 308 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 3: to find out WHAT i was. Feeling, YES i was 309 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 3: a very emotionally removed. Person that scared, me but that 310 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 3: was a vulnerability that was trained out of. Me IF 311 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 3: i was vulnerable with my, dad he exploited. It IF 312 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 3: i was vulnerable with these, boyfriends what would. Happen it 313 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 3: scared me to think THAT i wasn't capable of, love 314 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 3: and that's a precursor to, psychopathy THAT i could be 315 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 3: a psychopath IF i couldn't have empathy or. Love AND 316 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 3: i honestly didn't feel WHEN i left a lot of these, 317 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 3: RELATIONSHIPS i didn't feel sad to leave. THEM i was 318 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 3: relieved to leave these. Relationships so it caused me to 319 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: further wonder IF i was just like my. 320 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 2: Dad In, Sam melissa saw the stability she desperately, craved 321 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 2: and his religious upbringing provided stark contrast to her father's. 322 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 2: Crimes but in, Reality sam was very much questioning his 323 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 2: faith and rebelling against. It melissa became part of that. 324 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 2: Rebellion what did you know about her? Family do you? Remember? 325 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 7: YEAH i remember when she first told. ME i think 326 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 7: we were at a mom's place where you've been. Now 327 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 7: they used to have like a trampoline in the front 328 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 7: of the. YARD i think we were on the trampoline 329 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 7: and we were like looking up with the. Stars that's 330 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 7: When melissa told me who her dad, was and once 331 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 7: AGAIN i was so. Smitten to be, HONEST i didn't really, 332 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 7: care AND i don't THINK i understood the, magnitude like 333 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 7: the gravity of what her father. Was AND i didn't 334 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 7: see it as a reflection of who she. Was LIKE 335 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 7: i would hate for somebody to ever think that my 336 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 7: parents a reflection of. ME i, mean obviously we, are but, 337 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 7: LIKE i don't want to be judged for. 338 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: That when was the first Time sam said you aren't there? 339 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: Emotionally when was the first time that he? 340 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 3: Doubted it was always the elephant in the, room the 341 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 3: lack of. CONNECTION i, thought if we don't acknowledge, it 342 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 3: then it doesn't, exist and therefore everything's. 343 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 2: Normal don't bring it. 344 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 3: Up and so there wasn't anything verbally spoken about it 345 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: until three years. Ago we had a conversation about where 346 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 3: things were at in our marriage and that was his. 347 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 2: Complaint and what did he? 348 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 3: Say he, said you never look in my eyes and 349 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 3: you never kissed, me and it really bothered. 350 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 6: Him and. 351 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 3: It's, true it's, true and it has nothing to do with. 352 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 3: HIM i don't blame. Him it was nothing to do 353 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 3: with him at. All it was everything to do with. 354 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 8: Me in the freaking shish in for a, SACCO i 355 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 8: did no you dog. 356 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: See in what must have been one of the most 357 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: surreal moments in their, marriage one, Day melissa is SAD 358 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 2: i did to Visit. 359 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 7: Keith melissa AND i were at home one, day AND 360 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 7: i think she had either just received a letter or 361 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 7: maybe had come across the, letter and she asked me 362 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 7: if it was weird that she hadn't seen her, dad 363 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 7: AND i was, LIKE i don't. KNOW i don't know 364 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 7: if it's, Weird, army he is in prison for. Murder so, 365 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,239 Speaker 7: NO i don't think it's that. Weird she, goes how 366 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 7: would you feel IF i was to go see him? 367 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 7: Again AND i was, like whether you want to or, 368 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 7: Not i'm here for, you and, UH i, Said we'll 369 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 7: just think about, it and she. Did she thought about 370 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 7: it for a little, while and then she, GOES i 371 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 7: Think i'm gonna do, that and SO i took some time. 372 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 7: Off we told her when we were going on a 373 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 7: trip To, oregon and we didn't tell anyone what we 374 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 7: were going to go, do and we ended up getting 375 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 7: to the prison with our, kids and so we ended 376 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 7: up like following the guards through this like may of 377 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 7: like sales like where they would open up a gate 378 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 7: and you open up another gate and you're kind of 379 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 7: like following them. Through and then they brought us into 380 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 7: this like lobby which had like couches laid, out AND 381 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 7: i was trying to figure out how it was, working 382 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 7: AND i was waiting for them to come get, us 383 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 7: AND i was trying to figure, out So, melissa when 384 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 7: you go see your, Dad i'll just stay here with the. 385 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 7: Kids and THEN i started looking around the room and 386 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 7: there was guards at the doors with, guns and all 387 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 7: the men in the room were wearing denim AND i 388 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 7: wasn't wearing. DUNIM i was, like, man that must be 389 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 7: the style And oregon or, something so, NAIVE i, am. 390 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 9: Oh. 391 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 7: And THEN i started noticing that they're like pretty tied it. 392 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 7: Up and it was when we were in the room 393 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 7: THEN i realized that we were going to Meet melissa's 394 00:22:55,080 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 7: dad in. PERSON i had no, Idea and like after 395 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 7: a little, While melissa's dad came in and he's, massive 396 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 7: like he is such a big. MAN i, MEAN i 397 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 7: knew he was, big BUT i don't THINK i knew 398 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 7: how big he. WAS i REMEMBER i stood, Up melissa stood, 399 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 7: up and the kids were with, us AND i don't 400 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 7: remember if he Hugged, melissa BUT i remember his interaction with. 401 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 7: Me he shook my hand and he, said thank you 402 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 7: for taking such good care of my. Daughter that was 403 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 7: the very first thing he, said AND i was, like, 404 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 7: OH i might be able to handle this. Guy so 405 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 7: he sat down next to. US i think he asked 406 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 7: us if we wanted to have the kids go play 407 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 7: over in the play area or, not and we're, like, 408 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 7: no we'll keep them. Here AND i wasn't very cognizant 409 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 7: of even what my kids were enduring or even What 410 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 7: melissa was, feeling because my anxiety level was really. HIGH 411 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 7: i didn't know IF i had to move it like 412 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 7: into a protective mode or like into a kindness. 413 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: MODE i was really. DISTRAUGHT i didn't know what to. 414 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 7: Do was it? Crazy it was because LIKE i wasn't 415 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 7: expecting it to look like, That and he was actually 416 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 7: pretty genuine and pretty. Kind the banter back and forth 417 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 7: Between melissa and her dad seemed kind of. Normal he 418 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 7: asked if we wanted to go. OUTSIDE i guess there's 419 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 7: an outside area that you could go sit. In and 420 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 7: we just had a dialogue back and forth that was. 421 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 2: Weird what's going through your mind at any? Point are 422 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 2: you looking at this face and hearing this voice and 423 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 2: hearing the small talk and thinking this man murdered? People? 424 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: Yes. 425 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 7: ABSOLUTELY i was able to sit next to a, horrible 426 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 7: horrible person that could killate, women AND i wasn't able 427 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 7: to even distinguish that that's what he. Was AND i 428 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 7: used to consider myself pretty good at reading, people like 429 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 7: assessing who they, are and at that very, MOMENT i 430 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,719 Speaker 7: realized that most it'd be easy for all of us 431 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 7: to be. 432 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: Prey and that blew my. 433 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 7: Mind that was going through my head the entire time 434 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 7: while he's talking To melissa as like he murdered a people. 435 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 10: FROM i the creation of a serial killer By Jack. 436 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 10: Olson my size intimidated the guards and they chained me 437 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 10: up WHENEVER i was. MOVED i explained THAT i wasn't 438 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 10: going to harm, anyone but they'd heard that story. Before 439 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 10: it didn't matter how nice and POLITE i. ACTED i 440 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 10: was assumed to be a cold blooded killer who would 441 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 10: murder anyone he could get his hands. On this took 442 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 10: some time to get used. 443 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: To melissa And sam had gone to visit her father in, 444 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 2: prison not knowing what to, expect and they left with 445 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 2: a very surreal. Souvenir explain to me the picture BECAUSE 446 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: i look at, That i'm, like that is the craziest 447 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 2: family Portrait i've ever. 448 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 7: Seen, Yeah so when, done there was an option to 449 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 7: get a picture, taken and so we. Did we got 450 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 7: a picture With melissa's, dad and to be honest with, 451 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 7: you google the. Internet that will probably be the first 452 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 7: thing that pops up is a picture Of melissa's, dad my, 453 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 7: daughter my, son and, me and you could see the 454 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 7: size gap of me versus, him and he's just a massive. 455 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 2: Man it must have been a blessing that the kids 456 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 2: were too. 457 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 7: Small to ask oh, completely you, KNOW I melissa AND 458 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 7: i were sensitive for a long time because people, asses 459 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 7: how could you ever take your children around such a horrible. 460 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 7: Person AND i think people don't understand what it was. 461 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 7: Like the whole room was full of, children like kids 462 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 7: were playing with their dads because their dads are coming 463 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 7: to visit their. Children and SO i think what was 464 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 7: stranger is the fact That melissa's, dad who murdered eight 465 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 7: people would be in general, population which is normal. CRIMINALS 466 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 7: i think that's the real question is how could somebody 467 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 7: do such horrific things and be amidst people that maybe 468 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 7: like smoked weed and they were treated. 469 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: Equally, Eventually melissa's inability to connect With sam and to 470 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 2: truly reciprocate his love took its. 471 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 3: Toll there was a comfort as. Roommates we got along, 472 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 3: great and we were good. Friends we still are good, 473 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 3: friends so it was easy to stay longer and longer 474 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 3: in this relationship because we're such good. 475 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: Friends BUT i. 476 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 3: Knew when he brought up three years ago that he 477 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 3: wanted someone to be passionately in love with, him that 478 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 3: he would find, it probably with someone. 479 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 2: Else you guys just weren't. Happy, YEAH i don't think. 480 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 3: We if he was, honest he would say he wasn't. 481 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 3: Happy he wouldn't say that he wasn't happy with. Me 482 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 3: he wasn't happy with living without those things that he 483 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 3: wanted in his. 484 00:27:54,359 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 2: Life sam said. Neither he simply acknowledged a Burden keith's 485 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,479 Speaker 2: crimes placed On melissa and how much he'd seen her 486 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 2: struggle to atone for, them but he never blamed HER. 487 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 7: I think it has Compelled melissa to have to be 488 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 7: harder on herself than the average. Person and we're all 489 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 7: pretty hard on ourselves as it, Is, like take whatever 490 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 7: you are as a person and magnify. THAT i can 491 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 7: only imagine she's had to deal with people saying that 492 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 7: she was collecting blood money by sharing her, story that 493 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 7: we were, irrational bad parents by taking our kids to 494 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 7: visit a serial killer in a. PRISON i, mean you 495 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 7: put it in, words, yeah absolutely could build an argument to, 496 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 7: that but when you put it into actuality of what really, 497 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 7: happened it's the furthest thing from the. Truth our children 498 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 7: have always come first From, melissa AND i think it's 499 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 7: compelled her to have to over exaggerate her feelings for other, 500 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 7: people for, herself for our, kids always kind of on 501 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 7: the defensive to prove that she's not like her. 502 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: Father the burden she carries must be. 503 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: Immense and what's your take On jess person as opposed 504 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 2: to your take On, Melissa, like if you had to 505 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: be brutally honest about your take on. 506 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 7: Him, so IF i was to be brutally, HONEST i 507 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 7: would say that he definitely corrupted his family and he 508 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 7: made it so that they were in pain and in, 509 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 7: trauma and that pain and trauma is carried over into 510 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 7: her future, relationships and it's made it so she's had 511 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 7: to overcompensate to define who she, is to separate herself 512 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 7: from who he, is and it's put her in a 513 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 7: really difficult. Situation and to say that there wasn't an 514 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 7: impact would not be. 515 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 2: Honest What's melissa's biggest fear? 516 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 7: ABANDONED i THINK i think she's afraid that she'll be 517 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 7: alone and that she would end up being a lot 518 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 7: like her, dad that what everyone has said is. TRUE 519 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 7: i think that's probably her biggest. Fear but anything that's, changing, 520 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 7: LIKE i think she's becoming way more self. Aware i've 521 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 7: seen how strong she, was AND i really just thought 522 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 7: she could change the, world AND i thought by her 523 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 7: sharing her, story other people could have. 524 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 9: Hope WHEN i was eighteen, NINETEEN i was, naive still 525 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 9: naives to the world on crime and EVERYTHING i. 526 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 5: WAS i was basically a good person that wouldn't never 527 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 5: push anything past. 528 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: ANYTHING i would never do. 529 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 7: Anything when did you stop? 530 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: Hearing? Well my, divorce. 531 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 11: The different problems with my girlfriend and trucking in the 532 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 11: jobs and everything kind of ESCALATING i can't trust nobody around, 533 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 11: me AND i only trust, myself and you, know. 534 00:30:54,160 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 5: The cruelty of life just basically caused me to, think, well, hell. 535 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 2: What would you say if you could confront jessperson on 536 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 2: what he's? Done, okay Send melissa to his. Family if 537 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 2: he's listening to, this what do you hope he? 538 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: HEARS i would tell him that the way he treated 539 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: his daughter. 540 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 7: Complicated my, marriage Complicated melissa's, life but didn't make it 541 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 7: so it didn't get, better and he has no control of. 542 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 7: Anything who he is is really, insignificant and because of 543 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 7: the experiences that we've all gone through because of, him 544 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 7: we're actually stronger and. 545 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: Better and it's okay that. 546 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 7: He's not remorseful for what he's, done because everyone else's 547 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 7: remorse makes up the. Difference and if he goes, away 548 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 7: he goes away alone. 549 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: And without. 550 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 3: Everything hurts about building a life with someone and then 551 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 3: deciding to. SEPARATE i really discredited hearing from other people 552 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 3: when they said they went through a. Divorce it just 553 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,959 Speaker 3: seemed almost so casual BECAUSE i was so removed from their. 554 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 3: Lives but the pain is actually more intense THAN i 555 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 3: ever thought was. Possible it's Mourning, yeah it's absolutely. Grieving there's. 556 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 3: Anger there are the five stages of grief for, sure 557 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 3: And i've gone through all of them And i've read 558 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 3: every BOOK i could, read and they say it takes 559 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 3: like two years for you to feel normal. Again and 560 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 3: it's probably very similar to someone who lost someone that 561 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 3: they loved to death in some, ways just because you're 562 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 3: used to the little, things the day to day things 563 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 3: like calling after a meeting or when you get home 564 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 3: having the, Dishes i'm all ready for, you or you 565 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 3: know those you can lean on that person and then 566 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 3: when you when you divorce and, separate then now you 567 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,239 Speaker 3: have to create a new, life a new. 568 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 7: Normalcy she always talks about how she's leaned in on, 569 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 7: me But i've always leaned in on, her like she 570 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 7: went through such trauma and so much, pain and she 571 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 7: found her voice even when it's not easy to. Do 572 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 7: she still continuously puts herself in situations that most people 573 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 7: want to. 574 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: Do she's so, brave and watching her be, brave As 575 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: i'll be be. BRAVE i like. 576 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 5: KIDS i like my, kids BUT i wasn't really a family. 577 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 5: MAN i really didn't want to be the family. 578 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: MAN i didn't want THE i didn't want to end up, like, well. 579 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 5: Put my kids through WHAT i went, through and HERE 580 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 5: i am putting, through putting them through worse and WHAT 581 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 5: i went, through you know a lot of things because 582 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 5: you're they have to be raised with the idea that dad's. 583 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 8: A, killer. 584 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 3: Murderer my fear still to this, day is That i'm 585 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 3: incapable of loving in the way that people expect me 586 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 3: to love. Them you, Know sam swears THAT i probably 587 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 3: could love him the way he wants to be, loved 588 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 3: BUT i don't. BELIEVE i just don't want to lie to. 589 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 3: PEOPLE i don't want to feel like a fraud of 590 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 3: living too many years feeling like a, fraud AND i 591 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 3: feel like the best policies just to be up front 592 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 3: and let people decide if this works for them or. 593 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 3: Not and so With, Sam i've been really transparent with 594 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 3: him to let him know that this is WHERE i, 595 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 3: stand this. 596 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 2: Is WHAT i, am and my level of being able to. 597 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: Give is it about, control? Though is your fear of 598 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 2: love about losing, control about letting, go about having something 599 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: have power over? 600 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 3: You, Absolutely because if you fall in, love you give 601 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 3: up your, loverage you give Up you can be blindsided 602 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 3: in a hot, moment AND i don't want to ever 603 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 3: be that, vulnerable to be, blindsided AND i just don't 604 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 3: want to risk that. 605 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 2: Again on the Next Happy, Face melissa faces her greatest 606 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 2: fears and her father's. 607 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 3: Demons but it seems now that you want the world 608 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 3: to know who you, are Not melissa more but the 609 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 3: daughter of The Happy Face. 610 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 2: Killer i've created a monster in. 611 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 3: You this is WHY i don't lead these. 612 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: Letters Happy face is a production Of How Stuff. 613 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 10: Works executive producers Are Melissa, Moore Lauren, Bright Pacheco Mangesha, 614 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 10: ticketur And Will. Pearson supervising producer is No. Brown music 615 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 10: By Claire, Campbell Paige campbell And hope for A Golden. 616 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 10: Summer story editor Is Matt. Riddle audio editing By Chandler 617 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 10: mays And Noel. Brown assistant editor Is Taylor. Chicogne special 618 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 10: thanks To Phil, stanford the publishers of The Oregonian, newspaper 619 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 10: and The carlisle. 620 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 4: Family