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Speaker 1: Quody doors, but Joseph's gotten more. We hear the term waste,

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Speaker 1: and I don't mean that thing which you're belt in circles.

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Speaker 1: I mean waste. Wast. It's got many connotations. You know.

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Speaker 1: We can talk about, well, what a waste of talent?

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Speaker 1: How many times have you heard that over the years,

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Speaker 1: What a waste of my time? I think I may

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Speaker 1: have said that a couple of times in the last week.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure. But there's another kind of waste, and

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Speaker 1: in polite company we generally don't want to speak about it.

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Speaker 1: But I've got to tell you something. I've got a

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Speaker 1: considerable amount of experience with it, because it's amazing what

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Speaker 1: turns up from a forensics perspective in areas where human

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Speaker 1: waste might actually be found. Today's case in particular caught

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Speaker 1: my attention, and first off, it's because of my friends

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Speaker 1: at Authorm that did an incredible job of getting this

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Speaker 1: individual identified. But it also has to do with the

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Speaker 1: tragic life story of a man who for years and

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Speaker 1: years was simply known as septic tank Sam. I'm Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body packed Dave. I have

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Speaker 1: used the analogy that you know sometimes you in depth investigation.

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Speaker 1: You think you've taken the elevator all the way to

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Speaker 1: the basement, but yet when you get there, you realize

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Speaker 1: there's more depth, there's further you can go, and the

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Speaker 1: things that you behold before you are quite striking, things

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Speaker 1: that most people would not normally think of. I got

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Speaker 1: a quick tail to tell you. Toward the end of

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Speaker 1: my career in Atlanta, I got called out to solid

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Speaker 1: waste solid waste processing plant. Most people don't really understand

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Speaker 1: how these big water treatment sewage treatment places work, and

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Speaker 1: it's quite disgusting, but it's the reality of what we

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Speaker 1: do when human waste, the stuff that comes out of

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Speaker 1: the sewer is processed. It literally they have separation process

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Speaker 1: that occurs where all of the liquid is essentially drained

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Speaker 1: off and down a big conveyor belt and into these

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Speaker 1: bins drops all that remains and you would be shocked

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Speaker 1: at the things that you would find in there. And unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: if you're a medical legal death investigator, when you show

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Speaker 1: up at the scene and there is a human remain

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Speaker 1: in this bend, there's nobody there jumping in. They're all

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Speaker 1: staring at you when you drive up and there, I

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Speaker 1: can feel their eyes on me. This has happened twice

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Speaker 1: in my career. They're thinking, is he actually gonna do this?

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Speaker 1: And the answer is yes, yes, And I think towards

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Speaker 1: the end of my career, the last one that I had,

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Speaker 1: I recovered. I recovered a baby out of a solid,

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Speaker 1: solid waste beIN in Atlanta that had died apparently in

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Speaker 1: utero and was flushed, and it's it's one of those

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Speaker 1: moments in time where you're you had to get I

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Speaker 1: had to get a ladder to get over the side

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Speaker 1: into the bin. And it's one of those moments in

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Speaker 1: time for me where I was thinking, what in the

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Speaker 1: hell am I doing with my life? Because you stand

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Speaker 1: there and you're literally surrounded by human waste and there

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Speaker 1: is a human remain there at your feet, and you're

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Speaker 1: still having to process this. And this is not limited,

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Speaker 1: you know, in my mind to this thing, because there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of these cases that we go out on

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Speaker 1: as death investigators and forensics and you sit there and

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Speaker 1: you think, oh my god. Nobody in people's wildest dreams,

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Speaker 1: people don't think about you having to do things like this,

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Speaker 1: but it's part of the job. And interestingly enough, the

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Speaker 1: case that we're talking about today involves actually not a baby,

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Speaker 1: but a full grown man that was discarded not in

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Speaker 1: a public sewer system, but in septic tank, which is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: And I've got another little story about that we'll get

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Speaker 1: to in a moment. But it's always interesting to me

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Speaker 1: how people what links people will go to to try

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Speaker 1: to discard human remains, the links that they'll go to.

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Speaker 1: And I got to tell you in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: it kind of worked.

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Speaker 2: In April, and get the exact date because it actually

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Speaker 2: comes into play here. April thirteenth, nineteen seventy seven. A

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Speaker 2: couple is scavenging their old property and they are looking

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Speaker 2: for a septic tank pump. Now it is their own property,

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Speaker 2: and they are we're talking about did we mention this

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Speaker 2: is a Canadian story?

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right.

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Speaker 2: They're looking for a septic tank pump, and which is

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Speaker 2: how we have the story of septic tank Sam. Because

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Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself, who's looking for an old

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Speaker 2: septic tank? Joe who goes out to look for an

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Speaker 2: old septic tank? Surely there's a better way of saving

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Speaker 2: money than finding an old full septic tank. But so

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Speaker 2: this couple finds this old septic tank and they're trying

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Speaker 2: to get the pump. Sometimes the pump is on the

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Speaker 2: inside of the septic tank, so the top has to

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Speaker 2: come off. And as they're looking down. It didn't take

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Speaker 2: long because as they open the top of the septic tank,

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Speaker 2: a leg, a human leg comes bobbing up. Now this

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Speaker 2: is April nineteen seventy seven. Leg comes bobbing up. They

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Speaker 2: immediately alert the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to officers from

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Speaker 2: the RCMP local come out to recover the body. They

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Speaker 2: had to empty this septic tank obviously, to get everything

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Speaker 2: out so they could recover the body in any other remains.

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Speaker 2: And they didn't do it with a hose and a pump. No,

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Speaker 2: they did it by hand, using old ice cream buckets,

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Speaker 2: old ice cream gills.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I got to tell you it. Just bear

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Speaker 1: with me here because in principle, as horrible as this is,

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Speaker 1: this is the correct way to do it from a

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Speaker 1: forensic standpoint, because if you, let's just say you attempted

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Speaker 1: to pump something out, all right, the caliber of the

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Speaker 1: hose that you might be using in order to facilitate

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Speaker 1: this dave might be so large as you could actually

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Speaker 1: anything that is settled in there, from an evidentiary standpoint,

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Speaker 1: can in fact be sucked up. And if it passes

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Speaker 1: through this line and perhaps goes through the internal mechanism

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Speaker 1: of the pump where it's being blasted out, you can

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Speaker 1: destroy it because let's face it is very fragile. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, going back to my earlier you know

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Speaker 1: comment about being in the solid wastepend there's a bigger

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Speaker 1: picture here. As disgusting as it is, you have to

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Speaker 1: be able to get past this as an investigator and

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Speaker 1: do your job. It's not something you can shirk because

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Speaker 1: because if you're there's you got these two guys out

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Speaker 1: there and granted their RCMP, which I've met some of

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Speaker 1: these guys over the years. They are stellar, or at

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Speaker 1: least used to be. I'm assuming they still are very

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Speaker 1: squared away and very likable people, but very bright, and

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Speaker 1: they rolled up their sleeves and took on this task,

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Speaker 1: which from an archaeological stand if you look at it

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Speaker 1: from an archaeological recovery, when you're scooping the stuff out,

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Speaker 1: and I know that they're bailing water, but even or

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Speaker 1: the liquid rather as you're bailing it out, you have

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Speaker 1: to ensure that you're not going to miss anything that

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Speaker 1: can be caught up in there, because then as this

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Speaker 1: thing works, as a septic tank works, you have this

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Speaker 1: kind of liquid on top, the sediment floats to the

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Speaker 1: our sinks to the bottom in this environment. And so

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Speaker 1: it is to say that it is a horrible situation

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Speaker 1: to be in, you know, as an investigator, is to

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Speaker 1: understate it. But it's one of those things that you

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Speaker 1: have to do where you have to maintain your focus

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Speaker 1: because it is so detailed.

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Speaker 2: Dave, I was wondering what terminology you were going to use,

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Speaker 2: but using liquid and sediment liquid And I like that

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Speaker 2: because this is a really crappy story and you were

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Speaker 2: able to break that down in such a way that

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Speaker 2: is not my twelve year old self, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: sitting in the corner laughing. So, yeah, that's actually what

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Speaker 2: they have to do. And I wondered why the pale

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Speaker 2: and I appreciate you explaining that because they had to

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Speaker 2: do it by hand, and they had to look at everything.

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Speaker 2: And it's amazing to me, Joe that what they were

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Speaker 2: able to uncover and determine right by getting the body

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Speaker 2: out of the tank.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I find it very interesting that they have found.

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Speaker 1: You know, you'd use you'd use the term a leg,

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Speaker 1: a human leg. I'm fascinated by this because the individual

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Speaker 1: was in what is referred to as an anaerobic environment.

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Speaker 1: And let me kind of break this down to you.

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Speaker 1: Everybody has heard of aerobic exercise. Okay, So aerobic exercise,

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Speaker 1: if you think about that, you require oxygen, and there

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Speaker 1: is there are a couple of methodologies in order to

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Speaker 1: break things down. You can have aerobic environments which are

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Speaker 1: dependent upon oxygen and kind of feed the little nasties

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Speaker 1: that break things down. And then you have anaerobic environments

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Speaker 1: which require very little oxygen, and you have microscopic elements,

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Speaker 1: little creatures that need very little oxygen, and they begin

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Speaker 1: to break down what is left behind. So how do

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Speaker 1: we know that this was a leg? Well, they found

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Speaker 1: the clothing, Dave. In this particular case, my contention is

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Speaker 1: that more than likely when this poor couple, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's taking a look at this and they see this

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Speaker 1: kind of bent leg. This is the way I'm imagining it,

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Speaker 1: probably bent at the knee, perhaps slightly. That you've got

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Speaker 1: clothing that is still holding what remains together. And in

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Speaker 1: this particular case, it would take decades and decades to

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Speaker 1: solve this mystery and secontaty. You can almost see it

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Speaker 1: in the eyes of police officers when you're at the

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Speaker 1: scene of a case involving skeletal remains, you can kind

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Speaker 1: of feel it. If you're the forensics guy out there,

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Speaker 1: particularly from the Emmy's office, corner's office, depend upon the jurisdiction,

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Speaker 1: They're looking at you and they're thinking, what are you

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Speaker 1: going to be able to harvest from all that remains

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Speaker 1: and tell us what happened to this individual David In

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Speaker 1: this case, though, they were very fortunate because unlike human

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Speaker 1: remains that are found say on the surface, where you

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Speaker 1: have surface deposition of the body, you have scattering of remains.

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Speaker 1: And boy have we covered some of these cases over

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Speaker 1: the past past years. You know, disperse skeletal remains you're

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Speaker 1: talking about. This body is protected, it's kind of entombed.

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Speaker 1: It's just can you cut through all of this muck

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Speaker 1: and mire to be able to find every little element

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Speaker 1: of this body. But they found some big answers though

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Speaker 1: initially you.

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Speaker 2: Know when he is found in the subject tank, he's

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Speaker 2: wearing Blue Levi's Blue Levi's shirt with snap buttons, a

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Speaker 2: gray T shirt, blue jeans, and the one that really

190
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Speaker 2: grabbed me, imitation Wallaby shoes. The Wallaby shoe was this

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Speaker 2: really odd concoction of a shoe in the seventies that

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Speaker 2: a lot of us wore, and notably, if you ever

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Speaker 2: watched the TV series Breaking Bad, Walter White was wearing Wallabies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not fascinating.

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Speaker 2: It was amazing because I hadn't seen them since I

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Speaker 2: had a pair back in nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I didn't know the roles, the kind of

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Speaker 1: beige gold ummy their gummy yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's like a gummy bear on your foot. You know,

200
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Speaker 2: it's really weird.

201
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Speaker 1: But yeah, on the top, the upper portion of it

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Speaker 1: kind of looks like the you know, I'd forgotten about

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Speaker 1: the shoes, the shoes until until you know, I saw

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Speaker 1: this data coming in relative to the evidence, and that

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Speaker 1: the uppers kind of look like hushpuppies. You remember the

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Speaker 1: old hushpuppy shoes, And I think they may have made

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Speaker 1: a version of this as well. But the the Wallaby there,

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Speaker 1: that's a specific brand though, isn't it is?

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Speaker 2: And that's why they said this was an imitation Wallaby,

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Speaker 2: and I realized I had to have been wearing imitation

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Speaker 2: Wallabies in the seventies because we weren't the kind of

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Speaker 2: family that bought name brand. We buy generic everything. You know.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean for me, you know, I grew up

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Speaker 1: wearing tracks from Kmart or Whole Light Specials. So there

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Speaker 1: you go. So I'm feeling you man, Yeah, I'm feeling.

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Speaker 2: Husky was a brand when I was growing happy, you know. No,

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Speaker 2: So they find his decomposed body, yeah, in with those

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Speaker 2: with this clothing, but he's wrapped in a yellow bed

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Speaker 2: sheet and tied up with a nylon rope. This is

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Speaker 2: a lot of information about the condition of about the

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Speaker 2: overall condition of what they're finding him. And I have

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Speaker 2: to wonder, being put into the septic tank in this

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Speaker 2: very specific way, would it have preserved his body Being

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Speaker 2: inside of the as you refer to liquid and sediment,

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Speaker 2: would that preserve it or add to decomposing.

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Speaker 1: I think probably there would be a level of preservation here.

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Speaker 1: I mean there's certain things. And again we're in this

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Speaker 1: anaerobic environment, which is absent of oxygen. So if you're

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Speaker 1: in an anaerobic environment and you're thinking at a microscopic

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Speaker 1: level about the little nasties that begin to break things

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Speaker 1: down because it's an anaerobic environment. You've just narrowed your

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Speaker 1: field greatly as to what creatures can survive in this environment,

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Speaker 1: and you're going to obviously have decay that will begin

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Speaker 1: to break down. Just at a chemical perspective, you know

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Speaker 1: things will break down in this environment. But I would

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Speaker 1: submit to you that this environment actually helped in preservation

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Speaker 1: and in this So isn't this a common thread in

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Speaker 1: these cases where you have these bodies that are essentially

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Speaker 1: discarded and they've been cocooned, and that never makes sense

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Speaker 1: to me. And even as a young investigator, I was

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Speaker 1: around one of the great body disposal locations in the

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Speaker 1: world in South Louisiana with the apex predator that existed

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Speaker 1: down there with alligators, and I would find I would

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Speaker 1: go out on calls with bodies that were wrapped in

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Speaker 1: shower curtains and plastic wrap viscuen plastic wrapping in the swamps,

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, Okay, you're trying, you're trying to discard

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Speaker 1: the body, but yet you could coon the body. And

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Speaker 1: here not only is the body cocooned and tied, now

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Speaker 1: you've left behind evidence relative to this. Now, I'm fascinated

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Speaker 1: by that. I you know, so I guess I guess

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Speaker 1: in the mind of the perpetrator, they're not thinking I

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Speaker 1: want everything to go away, because they even left clothing

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Speaker 1: on Dave, which was a bad decision. Uh, based on.

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Speaker 2: The injuries Joe, based on the injuries he had been redressed.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, really, really think about this for just a minute. Well, well,

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Speaker 2: well we'll get there. Let's look at what they found

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Speaker 2: as they got septic tank sam out of the subject

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Speaker 2: tank and begin to examine. Could they tell how long

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Speaker 2: he'd been in the septic tank.

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Speaker 1: I think that your dad is going to be skewed.

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Speaker 1: And this is why this is this is not a

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Speaker 1: typical environment. Okay, you have to readjust your thinking because

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Speaker 1: of all of the elements that are involved here. And

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Speaker 1: here's another little indicator here that it throws another element.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you do when you do scientific observations,

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Speaker 1: you look for all those little data points along the

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Speaker 1: way or those things that will influence how an experiment

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Speaker 1: might come out. So on top of this, somehow they

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Speaker 1: concluded that the individual that placed this poor person in

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Speaker 1: this tank when they did this Dave, they threw quick

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Speaker 1: line on the body. And you know, lime has always

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Speaker 1: been purported to aid in the breakdown of human remains.

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Speaker 1: But here's and here this is a fascinating portion of this.

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Speaker 1: When quicklime and water meat, it becomes caustic and it

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Speaker 1: actually burns soft tissue. But it doesn't it's going to negate.

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Speaker 1: It's going to negate its ability to that water. That

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Speaker 1: fluid is going to negate quicklimb's ability to continue to

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Speaker 1: break break these elements down. And I think the big

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Speaker 1: question is unless they saw a remnant, you know, that

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Speaker 1: kind of white remnant of quicklimb around there, they had

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Speaker 1: to suspect that it probably wasn't mold. I don't think

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Speaker 1: mold could could exist in that environment. We actually find

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Speaker 1: bodies would mold on them, which happens very frequently if

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Speaker 1: bodies have been preserved in kind of a cooler environment

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Speaker 1: that is kind of dry. So two things, I think

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Speaker 1: that maybe there was a remnant of the quicklime, maybe

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Speaker 1: that was on the surface that they saw. And secondly,

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Speaker 1: h Dave, it may have desiccated the skin. And if

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Speaker 1: you ever hear the term desiccated, most of the time

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Speaker 1: we think about things like desiccated fruit. You know where

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Speaker 1: you've essentially taken all of the water out of it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so was the skin desicated. I've seen this. I've seen

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Speaker 1: desiccation of skin in I remember years and years ago

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Speaker 1: a guy that fell into a vat of acid and

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Speaker 1: it it completely robbed his skin of water. And when

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Speaker 1: he finally did make it to the Morgan we saw it.

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Speaker 1: His his skin was like boot leather. It was just

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Speaker 1: like that because it actually where he died was actually

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Speaker 1: in a tanning factory like yeah tiny yeah for leather,

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Speaker 1: like a big process assessing plant. And he fell into

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Speaker 1: a vat of acid, and on top of that, his

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Speaker 1: friend jumped in after him and he subsequently died as well.

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Speaker 1: I tell that story to my class as many times

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Speaker 1: and it reminds me old Bible verse. You know, no

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Speaker 1: greater love have a man than he laid down his

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Speaker 1: life for his friends. And I know people think they

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Speaker 1: know what that means. You see this in action, but

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Speaker 1: you get this idea of desiccation. And I'm really wondering

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Speaker 1: if the skin, if there was some soft tissue that

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Speaker 1: was left that was that was preserved to a certain degree.

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Speaker 1: And they noted that the skin was burned chemically like this.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine this that there would still be some

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Speaker 1: remnant of soft tissue that was preserved because of the

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Speaker 1: absence of water and it's in And when I say water,

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Speaker 1: don't misconstrue that. What I'm talking about is it has

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Speaker 1: essentially robbed the skin of the naturally occurring you know,

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Speaker 1: lubrication and water that's there, and it kind of leather.

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Speaker 1: It became like leather like, and it's not going to

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Speaker 1: be perfectly preserved.

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Speaker 2: But you in movies like Goodfellas and the TV show Ozark,

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Speaker 2: whenever a criminal, you know, kills somebody and they got

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Speaker 2: to dig a hole as they get a bag of

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Speaker 2: lime or whatever. And I had never heard the term quicklime,

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Speaker 2: So as we were researching the story, I looked it

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Speaker 2: up and it said that quicklime reacts vigorously with water,

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Speaker 2: releasing heat and converting itself into calcium hydroxide. And it

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Speaker 2: says this reaction is sometimes used as a portable heat source.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, isn't that something I know? Isn't that's something

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Speaker 1: that you could literally warm your hands over it. That's

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about. And so interestingly enough, the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: in this particular e then crime didn't know much about chemistry.

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Speaker 1: They go out with these assumptions. You know that they

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Speaker 1: think that because they've seen it in media or they've

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Speaker 1: heard about it, it's the best way to break down

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Speaker 1: a body. And that's that's certainly not the case. Now,

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Speaker 1: if the individual, I'm saying he if the individual had

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Speaker 1: merely placed the body in the septic tank, I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying it would have dissolved, but they wouldn't have the evidence.

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Speaker 1: I think that may have been preserved as a result

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Speaker 1: of this. And so you know, it's a fascinating thing.

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Speaker 1: And for that, and here's the thing, the body was

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Speaker 1: essentially kind of frozen in time, Dave, because they recovered

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Speaker 1: the body in seventy seven, if I'm not mistaken, isn't

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Speaker 1: that correct?

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Speaker 2: April is seventy seven, and I was looking at they

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Speaker 2: found some interesting results in the autopsy. It says the

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Speaker 2: medical examiner determined the body they found in the septic

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Speaker 2: tank to be Caucasian. Now, you know, we told you

349
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Speaker 2: at the very beginning this is the story of septic

350
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Speaker 2: tank Sam. An unidentified body found in the septic tank

351
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Speaker 2: and went unidentified for decades. This is why they started

352
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Speaker 2: with this assumption this ruling from the medical examiner that

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Speaker 2: the body they had recovered was Caucasian, and from that

354
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Speaker 2: very beginning spot, the investigation came from there, and they

355
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Speaker 2: were wrong. Just I'm throwing it out there to tell

356
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Speaker 2: you right now that very first determination that the body

357
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Speaker 2: was Caucasian was incorrect. And that's something that I made

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Speaker 2: a note of. And also this Joe, his bones and

359
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: teeth suggested he suffered body suffered from an unspecified illness

360
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Speaker 2: at five years old. How in the world could a

361
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Speaker 2: medical examiner looking at a body pulled from a septic

362
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Speaker 2: tank in nineteen seventy seven, looking at this grown man's

363
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Speaker 2: teeth and bones and determined he had an illness at

364
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Speaker 2: five years old.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, something is stunted in the growth at five years old.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're still growing significantly, gross plates are still

367
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Speaker 1: at work, and so any if you have some kind

368
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Speaker 1: of genetic anomaly or some kind of disease and it

369
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Speaker 1: interferes with that, there will be evidence of that moving forward.

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Speaker 1: And my question is did they do the research to

371
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Speaker 1: make a diagnosis of what this manifestation was that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: because they're very specific, they're talking about five years old man.

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Speaker 1: Did they make a specific diagnosis. And when this comes

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Speaker 1: to from an anthropological standpoint, because we're talking about an

375
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Speaker 1: unidentified body that is probably mostly skeletal or skeletonized, you're

376
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Speaker 1: going to have to involve an anthropologist in this. And

377
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Speaker 1: so are you looking at a disease that might be

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Speaker 1: unique to a specific race and that's you know, and

379
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: so that's one of the things. Or is this disease

380
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: something that has that is blind blind to what the

381
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: racial makeup of somebody might be. You know, there are

382
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Speaker 1: certain diseases that certain races are prone to. So I

383
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: think that that would be something that would have to

384
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: be considered in this case. But it's a very specific diagnosis, Dave,

385
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: and pinpointing in Tom. And here's the other thing. The

386
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 1: assessment that was done by the forensic pathologist at that

387
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: particular time, not only did they state that this individual

388
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Speaker 1: was Caucasian, but they also stated that the individual was

389
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Speaker 1: a specific age as well, you know, chronologically, I think

390
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Speaker 1: that they had misidentified the age. They were off by

391
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Speaker 1: years in this particular case, Dave.

392
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Speaker 2: They actually thought this Caucasian mail was between the age

393
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Speaker 2: of twenty six and thirty two. And one other question

394
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Speaker 2: for you, Joe. After they get the body out the remains.

395
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Speaker 2: What did they determine was the cause of death.

396
00:28:53,680 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: By virtue of gunshot wounds, not one, but two. Apparently

397
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: they determined that he was shot in the chest and

398
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: in the head. And I got to tell you some

399
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: of the other findings that they had with this case.

400
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: One of the most striking is that he had been

401
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: They believe he may have been strapped to a bed

402
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: in a supine position, which means face up. So was

403
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: there evidence of a gunshot wound on the shirt that

404
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: was left behind that was not burned, or was it

405
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: something like a mark on the sternum, maybe a gunshot

406
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: wound that passed through the sternum. And that in and

407
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,959
Speaker 1: of itself is very fascinating because you know, if we

408
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: have a non intact skeleton, let's just say, if we

409
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: just had the head, we wouldn't have that other information

410
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: about a gunshot wound to the chest. Or conversely, if

411
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: we were missing the head, we might only be able

412
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: to have evidence of a single gunshot wound to the chest.

413
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: Very fascinating stuff when you begin to think about it.

414
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: But they were able to determine an absolute cause of death.

415
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: There is a perception among the general public. I think

416
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: that forensic scientists are experts in every aspect of forensic practice. Nothing,

417
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: and I mean nothing could be further from the truth.

418
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: Fingerprinted experts are not experts in ballistics. Okay, DNA folks

419
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: are not experts in trace evidence. It's a lifelong journey

420
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: to perfect your craft as a forensic practitioner. Just think

421
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: of it like a physician. You know, a psychiatrist is

422
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: not going to go in and do surgery to repair

423
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: a broken bone in the leg. Okay, but yet they're

424
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: all physicians. So when I hear about a forensic pathologist

425
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: working for the Medical Examiner Corner System where this body

426
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: was recovered, the big question is did you ever ever

427
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: consult a forensic anthropologist? And Dave, it wasn't until the

428
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: body had already been buried, and a couple of years

429
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: later they finally came up with a brilliant idea, Hey,

430
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: you know what, we probably ought to exhume this body

431
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: and take another look here to try to figure out

432
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: who's and the thing about it is he had been

433
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: buried I think in what's commonly referred to as posts

434
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: field or a pauper burial, because he was unknown when

435
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: he was placed in the ground. And remember he is

436
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: placed in the ground as a white man. That's the

437
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: big you know, bone of contention.

438
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 2: Here, literally bone of contention. Yes, you mentioned that this

439
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: man died from two gunshot boom back of the head

440
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: execution style, but they were able to determine other things

441
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: about his death.

442
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: And it is.

443
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 2: Horrifying. Is the best I can come up with, because

444
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: I thought we were dealing with a skeleton with minimal flesh.

445
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: But the body is discovered in April of seventy seven,

446
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: and now based on what the medical examiner came up

447
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: with it autopsy this there was a body. I mean,

448
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: it was not a skeletonized remain. There's a body there.

449
00:32:58,480 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: That tells them a lot.

450
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the interesting elements is that somebody had

451
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: apparently the perpetrator before they placed the body in the

452
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: septic tank, had attempted to burn the body, which I'm

453
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: fascinated by that that they still were able to recover

454
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: as much as they recovered. And again, I think you

455
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: go back to the behavior of these perpetrators when they

456
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: come face to face with reality what they're dealing with.

457
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: They probably got frustrated because bodies. I'm not trying to

458
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: dehumanize this. But just understand, bodies don't make great fuel.

459
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: They're very difficult to burn, and you might burn them externally.

460
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: But unless you have like this uninhibited flow of oxygen,

461
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: supply of oxygen, you've got a fuel source that is

462
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: constantly heating the body, you're going to be very very frustrated, Dave.

463
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: And so my supposition is that got frustrated, took the

464
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: body partially burned and placed it into the septic tank.

465
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: But they were still able to determine that prior to death,

466
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 1: this individual had been tortured.

467
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: I was wondering if the torture based on what happened,

468
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: if they were trying to get information from him, if

469
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: the whoever did this to septic tank Sam, because it

470
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: says that he was tied up and burned with a

471
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 2: small buttane torch and cigarettes. How are they going to

472
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: find that out on a body that's been pulled out

473
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 2: of a septic tank.

474
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I hate to say, I

475
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: don't know, but you know, when you don't know, you

476
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: don't know. They a small buttane torch as opposed to

477
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: a large heat source. That's apparently, and it was very specific.

478
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: So I think the clothing plays into this greatly. I

479
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: believe that he was never disrobed, and they also have

480
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: come up with this idea that he may have been

481
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: tied to a bed. And if if that's part of

482
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: it from an evidentiary standpoint, then you've got an individual

483
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 1: that is in a supine position, which means face up.

484
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: I don't like to use the terms face up face down,

485
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: so face up commonly is referred to as supine, and

486
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: face down is prone. I've actually had bodies that were

487
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: laying prone, but yet their head was turned on their

488
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: body and they were technically face up. It comes from

489
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: long years of having to deal with lawyers, so I

490
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: generally say, you know, suppine versus you know, prone, that

491
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: would give you an indication that they have. They were

492
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: able to determine a position that he was in while

493
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: and this is you know interesting, while he was being tortured.

494
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: Dave in Life in Land, Now, yeah, they were.

495
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: You know, we talked earlier about how the medical examiner

496
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:01,720
Speaker 2: ruled him to be Caucasian, and he also took several

497
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 2: months to determine the gender of the body that was

498
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: found because the sexual mutilation was so severe that they

499
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: could not determine for several months to positively identify the

500
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 2: body as that of a male.

501
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: Yes, and that's that's fascinating. They saw evidence of sexual mutilation.

502
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 1: So if he had remained clothed, was there a possibility

503
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: that they had cut through the crotch of these blue

504
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: jeans and essentially mutilated him sexually. So if that's the case,

505
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: then what you're going to be left with to do

506
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: the sexing of the individual is going to be the pelvis.

507
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: With females, the pelvis is much wider to accommodate, you know,

508
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: the birth of a child through the birth canal, and

509
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: men's hips tend to be more narrow. And so that's

510
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: one of the little things that you look for, you know,

511
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: when you're attempting to determine sex. If you know, in

512
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: particularly in cases where all you have is, say the

513
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: pelvic girdle, you know that that's left behind. Uh, And

514
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: I'm really wondering if that's you know, kind of what

515
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: they were dealing with at this point in tom And

516
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, you know, people might might say that, well,

517
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: he's wearing men's clothes. Come on, man, I mean women,

518
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: women have been wearing you know, men's clothes for years

519
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: and years and years. You cannot simply base base the side.

520
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: And he may have been diminutive as well. And that's

521
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: another that's one of the other pitfalls that you run

522
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: into with skeletons. They can be diminutive and still be male,

523
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 1: and so you're you're having to play the percentages. But boy,

524
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: I tell you what, when they decided to disinter the body,

525
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 1: they that's oh, I was so fascinated by this. They

526
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: actually called on one of my heroes, who is doctor

527
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 1: Clyde Snow, And I actually teach about doctor Clyde Snow.

528
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: There's two if there was like and I know some

529
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: people would probably balk at this, but if you're looking

530
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: at two of the founders, kind of the fathers of

531
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: modern forensic anthro probably there's two people. There's doctor Bill Bass,

532
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: who is the founder of the body Farm, and then

533
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: there's doctor Clyde Snow, who Bill Bass is at ut

534
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: Doctor Clyde Snow was at the University of Oklahoma and

535
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: he coined a very interesting phrase, Dave that's still to

536
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 1: this day I teach, and it's called the I steal

537
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: biography and what he meant by that and It's a beautiful,

538
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: beautiful way to think about it. You look at the

539
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: bones a skeleton of an individual, and it's almost like

540
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: reading the rings of a tree. You can actually form

541
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: or come to some conclusions about the life that the

542
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: individual led merely by looking at their skeletal remains. The

543
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: osteobiography joint where where on teeth you think about epifcial

544
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: plates when we were talking about growth earlier, you know

545
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: these things that have not not formed, uh, fractures that

546
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: may have occurred that were never repaired, versus fractures that

547
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: were set. Uh. You know, all of these little things,

548
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 1: even even even looking at diet relative to the chemical

549
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: composition of the bone itself. And isn't that fascinating? And

550
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: that seems very obvious, But Clydees knows the first person

551
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 1: that actually took that and formulated it and defined it

552
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: for everybody. It's you know, we it's kind of wrote today,

553
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: but back when he coined that phrase and snow was

554
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 1: a very fascinating character. He actually went to Central America

555
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 1: and did a lot of the recovery of mass graves

556
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: when wars were going on down there, where they were

557
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: just trenching out areas and just throwing bodies. And he

558
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: actually did recoveries under fire, Dave. So he was a

559
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: fascinating cat to say the least. And that he got

560
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: involved in this case is even more intriguing to me

561
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: as a forensics guy. And he was here's the big reveal.

562
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: He came to the conclusion and I would imagine pretty

563
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 1: quickly because of his experience. He says, we're not dealing

564
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 1: with a white male here. This is an indigenous person.

565
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: And if you can see the skulls of and you know,

566
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: in America we refer to them as Native Americans, so

567
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: Native Canadians, indigenous to Canada. The morphology of the skull

568
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: is going to be the same indigenous as opposed to

569
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: a caucazoid skull. And one of the things that you

570
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: look for are the shape of the eye sockets. And

571
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 1: there might be more of a flattened forehead for instance,

572
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: maybe a robust brow line more so than you know,

573
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 1: classic caucazoid in my skull. So I've got this kind

574
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: of V shaped face, all right, it comes to a

575
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: point with my chin that's not something you would commonly

576
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: see in a Native American or an indigenous skull. And

577
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: they missed that day, and the problem with missing things,

578
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: particularly if you're attempting to determine the race of a

579
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: skull and the age and all this sort of thing,

580
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: you're off scent at that point investigatively because look RCMP,

581
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: the Royal Canadian Manipolat they knew that they had a

582
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: homicide here. So that information from Jump Street back in

583
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: seventy seven that they offered up at that point in time,

584
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: it was it put them off scent for all of

585
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: these years later. And it you know, I'm not saying

586
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 1: that it would have led to an arrest, but you

587
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: never know, man, You never know. It's real, it's really important.

588
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: You tried to do your best to get it right

589
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: the first time.

590
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 2: Well, the investigation was going down the wrong path based

591
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 2: on the expert information they had, so it's difficult to

592
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 2: understand or go back and say what would have happened.

593
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: But what we know is that all of their information

594
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 2: was based on looking for a white The victim is

595
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 2: a white man, So who you know are we dealing

596
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: with in this small sphere here, Because they knew that

597
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 2: the septic tank, he wasn't killed there, He wasn't killed

598
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 2: in the septic tank. You know, that is the proverbial

599
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: dump site. And due to the vicious nature of the

600
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: tack on him, because remember we're talking about burnmarks from

601
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 2: abutane torch and cigarettes. We're talking about they believe he

602
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 2: was tied up and it sexually mutilated. They believe this

603
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 2: was personal, that the killer or killers knew the victim,

604
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 2: and based on the fact that his body was put

605
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: was dumped in the septic tank, that the killers probably

606
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 2: are local and knew of the area because a rural property,

607
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 2: it's not a thing that's out there with you know,

608
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 2: it's not a common area that people would know about.

609
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: So you pull all these things in. Now you're looking

610
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 2: at that local suspects. You got to figure out who

611
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: the victim really is because he's you don't know. And

612
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: that's why all of this took forty four years of

613
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: trying to figure out who is septic tank Sam Joe

614
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: and what did they do. So many times we have

615
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: had DNA solve a crime, but we're talking about a

616
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: crime that dates back to nineteen seventy seven, and the

617
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 2: information that we have is bad. It's not good.

618
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: Technically, no, it's not. And so when you're given you know,

619
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: the old adage about garbage and garbage out, and I'm

620
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 1: not it's not my intent to try to disparage, you know, yeah,

621
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: because it's easy to Monday morning quarterback. But if if

622
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: the data that you have is invalid scientifically to begin with,

623
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: everything else moving forward from there is going to be compromised.

624
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: And look, the police can only do so much there

625
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: relying upon This is one of those times when they're

626
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: relying upon the data that's being offered up to them

627
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: by the science, you know, specifically what the forensic pathologist

628
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: told them, you know, and look, a cop obviously is

629
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: going to say, oh, this guy's the forensic pathologist. You know, yeah,

630
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: is what he's talking about. But it you know, you

631
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: had to bring somebody onto the stage to kind of

632
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: do a reset. And you know, again, I I don't

633
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: want to overstate this, but they could not have gotten

634
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: a better person. But even with that, even with that,

635
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: in the determination that doctor Snow had made and they

636
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: had done a they'd actually brought in a forensic artist

637
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: done facial you know, renderings of who they thought this

638
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: individual might look like. Now it's there. They're basing this

639
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: on an indigenous individual. You have this there and before

640
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: that they had been sending dental records out all over Canada. Uh,

641
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: you know, this is in a very isolated area, David.

642
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 1: It's it's kind of southeast of Edmonton in Alberta. It's

643
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: a you know, kind of a farm area out there.

644
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: It's right before you haven't hit the Canadian Rockies yet,

645
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: so it's you know, kind of about an isolated farm

646
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: area like this, and the people that would know of

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00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: this place, that would have access to a place like

648
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: this are they're going to be very, very limited. And

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00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: the thought is once they had determined that he was

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00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: part of an indigenous population, I'm really wondering were they

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00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: able to go to any of the tribal areas there,

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00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: for instance, and say, hey, are you missing someone that

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00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: fits this description what I'm hoping for, Dave, And again

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00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: I urge everybody visit authorm their website, authoram dot com

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00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: as well as DNA solves dot com. They are not

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00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: funded by any government entity. They are reliant upon donations.

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00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people out there that say that

658
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 1: they want to help out with something, and for my money,

659
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: there is no organization more worthy than this organization and

660
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: the good work that they're doing because we always talk

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00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: about how there's no such thing as closure, But this

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00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: is what I know that Authorm and the Middleman's offer,

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00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 1: they offer answers, and maybe, just maybe with answers, maybe

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00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 1: families can start on that journey to peace. I'm Joseph

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00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body