1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: And so good to see you. 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 2: I'm in Fort Green, Brooklyn, and I'm meeting up with 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and writer Andrea Elliott. Andrea and 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: I are standing on a sidewalk in front of an 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 2: imposing red brick building. There are leafy trees scattered around 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: on a trimmed lawn. And it turns out that this 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 2: place means a lot to Andrea. 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 3: What a incredible privilege to share this space with you. 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 3: Oh my god, this pavement we're standing on is like 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 3: sacred grounds. 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 4: As far as I'm concerned. 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 3: I know. 13 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 4: Are you tear up? 14 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 3: Yeah? What's going on? It's just bringing back a lot. 15 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 4: Tell me everything that you're feeling. 16 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 3: Well, this is where it all began. 17 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: In fact, Andrea's life is forever intertwined with this location. 18 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 2: It's a shelter known as the Auburn Family Residence. A 19 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: rusted black fence surrounds the building. I can see benches 20 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: near the entrance and here kids play nearby. It looks 21 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 2: like a welcoming place, but it wasn't that way when 22 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 2: Andrea first came here. 23 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 4: The story begins more than. 24 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 2: A decade ago, when Andrea began to report on Dasani Coates, 25 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: an eleven year old girl who is black and who 26 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: lived in that shelter. Andrea, who's an investigative reporter for 27 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: The New York Times, also met Desani's family at that shelter. 28 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: Andrea published a series of articles at The New York 29 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 2: Times about Desani in twenty thirteen, and she kept on 30 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 2: reporting on her and her family for more than eight years. 31 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: That reporting material eventually turned into a book titled Invisible Child, Poverty, 32 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: Survival and Hope in an American City, and it won 33 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in the year twenty 34 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: twenty two. The book opens with stories about Desani's family. 35 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: At that point, they were living in the Fort Green Shell, 36 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: which is where we are standing right now. 37 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 3: It's actually literally where it began, where we're standing, like 38 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 3: this spot that I staked out in those early days 39 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 3: as I was trying to find a way in, and 40 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 3: not just a way into this shelter and this world, 41 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 3: but into the heart and mind of a child. Right 42 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: I hadn't found the kid, and I just was like 43 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: pacing back and forth, back and forth, talking to whomever 44 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 3: was willing to talk back, because a lot of people 45 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 3: just didn't want to talk to me, and the. 46 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 2: Day I tried to keep a low profile at first. 47 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: She spent months talking to people coming in and out 48 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: of the shelter, trying to better understand what life was 49 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 2: like on the inside. 50 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 3: And in the back of my mind, I was thinking, 51 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 3: I need a child who can really narrate her experience, 52 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 3: who can share it. I was talking to the moms 53 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 3: and they kept saying, You've got to talk to this 54 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 3: one mother whose family of ten is sharing one room, 55 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 3: which is was right there on the fourth floor, all 56 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 3: of them into one five hundred and twenty square foot room, 57 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 3: and that was to Sonny's family. And I'll never forget 58 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 3: the moment I finally set eyes on them, they walked 59 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: out of that entrance in single file. Oh my god, 60 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 3: with Chanel the mom at the front, like a drill sergeant, 61 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: because this is how she trained her children to survive. 62 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 4: You can't mess with us, don't you can't. 63 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 3: Dress with us. And we are we're orchestrated. We work together, 64 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 3: we don't come apart. And she just gave me this 65 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 3: like who the hell are you, sort of like look 66 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 3: like dead in the eye kind of stare, which she 67 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 3: later explained to me was her practice power move, but 68 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 3: like she's hilarious, and we started talking, and like for 69 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 3: every ten words that she said, this squeaky little voice 70 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 3: intervened and it was the voice of her daughter, Desani, 71 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 3: who just wanted to keep butting in and everything that 72 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 3: came out of the kid's mouth, I was practically crying 73 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 3: from this gratitude. It was like she was hilarious, so smart, 74 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 3: so wise for an eleven year old, so self aware, 75 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 3: just and eager to share, just like my dream come true. 76 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 2: There was a certain type of life force that swirled 77 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: around this family, and especially Desani, who was named after 78 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: the bottled water. Her mom, whose name is Chanelle, saw 79 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 2: this expensive bottled water as a sign of an indulgence 80 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: that the family could not afford, but that they dreamed of. 81 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 3: She was on the honor roll. She woke up every 82 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 3: morning and looked out her window at the Empire State 83 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 3: Building to see what color it was lit up in. 84 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 3: Just outward looking and outward reaching, wanting to beat everyone 85 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 3: else at pull ups, wanting to be the fastest kid 86 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 3: on the block, wanting to interrupt her mother every ten 87 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 3: words to tell me the real deal. She was just 88 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 3: expressive and she was aspirational, like her name, that's all 89 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 3: the good stuff right when I realiz the bad stuff 90 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: that she was covering up in a way or not 91 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: sharing as readily. In the beginning, learning that she was 92 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 3: on the honor roll went from Wow, that's impressive to oh, 93 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: my god, that's a miracle. 94 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: At the time, both of Dissani's parents were addicted to drugs. 95 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 4: The family went through periods of homelessness. 96 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 2: They struggled to get enough food to eat, and there 97 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: were moments when their eight children were separated from them 98 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: and kept by child Protective Services. 99 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 3: For all of that exertion and energy and reaching, there 100 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 3: was also so much pain. There was more loss in 101 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 3: that little eleven year old body than most adults will 102 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 3: ever see. This isn't a story of the one who 103 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 3: got out. It's the story of all of the kids who, 104 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: despite the many gifts they bring, are trapped in, are 105 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 3: kept inside, and it's because of forces that are way 106 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: beyond their own control. And so that's what I came 107 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 3: to learn. In the beginning, I was like, this is 108 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,799 Speaker 3: a special kids. We're going to see magical things happen, 109 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 3: and we're going to learn something maybe about how you 110 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 3: escape this world, and in fact, what I came to see, 111 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 3: not just in that year, but in the many years 112 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 3: that followed, is this is not a world that we 113 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: should want to escape. It's a world we want to fix. 114 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: From futuro media and BrX, it's Latino usay, I'm Maria 115 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: no Josa Today. A conversation with journalist Andrea Elliott on 116 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 2: documenting life, on the margins of power, and on the 117 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 2: role of journalists of conscience. Invisible Child won the Pulitzer 118 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: Prize in the category of General Nonfiction in twenty twenty two, 119 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: but that wasn't Andrea's first Pulitzer Prize. Fifteen years earlier. 120 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: In two thousand and seven, for The New York Times, 121 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: Andrea won her first Pulletzer, this one for feature writing, 122 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: specifically for her post nine to eleven reporting on Muslim communities. 123 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: Andrea has worked at The Times for twenty one years, 124 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: where she's currently an investigative reporter, and before the New 125 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 2: York Times, Andrea was at the Miami Herald covering crime, immigration, 126 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:31,119 Speaker 2: and Latin American politics. Her bond with Latin America runs deep. 127 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: She's the daughter of a Chilean mother and an American father. 128 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: Andrea's reporting has always centered on covering people living at 129 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: the margins of power. On today's episode, we're going to 130 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: talk about how Andrea's bicultural upbringing helped her to better 131 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: connect and report on communities that she's not a part of. 132 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: And we're also going to talk about how journalists like 133 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: Andrea or myself, who are in a way outsiders in 134 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 2: the mainstream media, can help to bring issues like systemic 135 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: poverty and injustice to the forefront of the American conscience. 136 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 2: Now we're going to continue the conversation with Andrea Elliott, 137 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: this time from our studio in Harlem, New York City. 138 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: When I say, Andrea, tell us about your arrival story, 139 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: I mean, you were born in this country, right, But 140 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: it's your family's arrival story, and it's a pretty intense 141 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: arrival story. 142 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 3: So my family comes in two parts, very much like 143 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 3: I do. So there's the American side, which is my father, 144 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 3: who is from a small town outside of Buffalo, New York, 145 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 3: and who went to Harvard on a full ride from 146 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 3: a public high school and then went as a Harvard 147 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 3: lost student to Chile, and there in nineteen sixty eight 148 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 3: at a picnic, helped a very beautiful law student named 149 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 3: Maria Gloria Carvajal Romero helped her onto a horse, and 150 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: that is where our family began. It was with that jester. 151 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 3: They fell in love, and she came to the United 152 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 3: States to make a life with my dad. But we 153 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: wound up as a family planting roots of all places 154 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 3: in Gainesville, Virginia. It's where I took my first steps, 155 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: It's where I spent my first four years of life, 156 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 3: and it is also the place where a lot of 157 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 3: our Chilean family arrived, fleeing Chile for their safety after 158 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 3: General Augusto Pinoche took power in a violent coup in 159 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy three. 160 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: Well, in fact, on a date that is auspicious, right, 161 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 2: that happens on September eleventh, nineteen seventy three. So you're 162 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 2: this little girl, You're growing up on this farm in Virginia, Washington, DC, 163 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: the capital is very close by. You understand that you're 164 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: American through and through, but also there's all this Spanish 165 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: being spoken. 166 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 3: I'm not sure I understand anything other than the weird, 167 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 3: little like bubble that I was growing up in, which 168 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 3: which was this mishmash of things. It was fourth of 169 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 3: July and the flag, and at the same time mostly 170 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 3: Spanish running through my ears and out of my mouth. 171 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 3: Actually that was my first language. Actually one of my 172 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 3: first favorite words was rico, guer rico, and I kept 173 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: hearing about this place called Chile, Chile. I was just 174 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 3: surrounded by this constant longing for this place called Chile, 175 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 3: which I didn't know anything about because I was we 176 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 3: couldn't go there, and so I had to imagine it, 177 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 3: and I remember imagining it very much as a globe, 178 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 3: as this kind of spheric thing, filled with little things 179 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 3: that were rico, like cakes, and beautiful things like little 180 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 3: birds that were chirping. Literally, this is the image that 181 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 3: comes to mind, and I think that was a weird 182 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 3: thing to witness as a young child. Was a bunch 183 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 3: of grown ups crying over something that I couldn't see. 184 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 4: You were seeing with your mom crying. 185 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean basically, my mother's brothers, Thomas and Lucco, 186 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 3: fled for their lives. They were leftists, they were on 187 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: the wrong lists. 188 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 2: Because this is when the right wing dictatorship, with a 189 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 2: lot of support from the United States and the CIA, 190 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 2: takes over in Chile. Ousts a democratically elected president who 191 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 2: tended left socialist independent, and so young people like your 192 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 2: uncles were being murdered and disappeared and they find refuge 193 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: in this farm. 194 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 3: So this was back in the era where you could 195 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: send a paper airplane ticket by mail, which my father 196 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: kept doing to fetch my grandmother, and then we'd go 197 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 3: to the airport to pick my grandmother up, and off 198 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 3: the plane would come another uncle. Literally, like you could 199 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 3: just take the plane ticket and board it as someone else. 200 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 3: And that's that was then, And so we had a 201 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 3: kind of constant stream of people coming to seek refuge. 202 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: So let me ask you this, how did you feel? 203 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 2: What did you identify with? Because I wasn't born here, 204 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: so I definitely knew that while I was close to Americana, 205 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 2: I was not American. 206 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 4: But how did you see yourself? 207 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 3: Then? I wish I could say I was fully aware 208 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 3: of it and had profound thoughts as a child to 209 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 3: offer about this. But I actually think the way that 210 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 3: most kids relate to an experience is not to see 211 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: it as different so much as to just see it 212 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 3: as the thing that they're in and you just adapt. 213 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 3: And so if I look back on that period specifically, 214 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 3: like sort of the time when I started going to 215 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 3: first grade, which is really when the issues or the 216 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: questions around identity would first arise. Those were just really 217 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 3: exciting moments in which I tried to pass for whatever 218 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 3: was around me. And so what I do remember is 219 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 3: sometimes feeling like we were different or weird or not 220 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 3: like everyone else. And I think that always made me 221 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 3: aware of difference from a very early age. I never 222 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 3: felt like I was fully one thing. And so this 223 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 3: hyphenated identity, this hyphen that links Chile in America, That's 224 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 3: how I saw myself. I am Chilean American, I'm both things, 225 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 3: you know, So just always toggling between those two and 226 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 3: never feeling like you're one thing entirely, I think is 227 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 3: a thing that leads a person to be curious about 228 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 3: other people. 229 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 2: Which leads me to that precise issue, right because in 230 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 2: your career, I know that the first time I start 231 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: noticing your byline is around September eleventh. This was when 232 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: you focused on covering what was happening with the Muslim 233 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: community in New York City and beyond, and you really 234 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: went into deeply into this community and helped so many 235 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: people humanize the entire Muslim community that after September eleventh 236 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: was being demonized, criminalized in many ways. And I'm wondering 237 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: how you think about your outsiderness as what you just said, 238 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: it means that you're curious about these other communities. 239 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: It means I'm curious about everything. And I think if 240 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 3: I have one talent, it's to see the story that's 241 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 3: hiding in plain sight. And that's what happened with the 242 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 3: beat I created around Islam and post nal life in America. 243 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: It was a huge story that we were missing, and 244 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 3: I had just gotten to the newspaper. By the way, 245 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: this was two thousand and three, so it's a couple 246 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: of years after the terrorist attacks. I was at the 247 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 3: Miami Herald prior to that. And there's something about arriving 248 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 3: fresh who just see things that other people don't see, right, 249 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 3: And I mean this was ground zero literally, right. So 250 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 3: the paper had been focused on two stories, the story 251 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 3: of the victims obviously, and the story of the perpetrators, 252 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 3: and those were the major stories to be covering. But 253 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 3: there was this third community, right. It was basically kind 254 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 3: of this weird hybrid of the other two. Right. They 255 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 3: were seen as the perpetrators and yet they were really 256 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 3: victims because they belonged to the ninety nine percent of 257 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 3: Islam that does not actually carry out violence. The only 258 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 3: reason I noticed it is because I was sent out 259 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 3: on a breaking news assignment. I literally was told, in 260 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 3: five hundred words, capture what it's like to be Muslim 261 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 3: an American in Brooklyn right now. It's going to be 262 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 3: a sidebar to a big news story that's running the 263 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 3: next day. And I actually went to Midwood, Brooklyn, and 264 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 3: within five hours I had in my hands a beat 265 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 3: that would consume me for the next seven years. 266 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 4: Now. 267 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 3: Was I the right person to tell that story? Absolutely not. 268 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 3: I always say I'm the wrong person for every story. 269 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 3: I think you have to go in as a journalist 270 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 3: feeling that if you want to get it right, you 271 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: need to know that you're going to be humbled over 272 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 3: and over and over again. But I went in as 273 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 3: a reporter, and I went in curious, and so that 274 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 3: was how it happened. 275 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 2: You end up bringing your first pulletzer for feature writing 276 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: in two thousand and seven, A lot of it because 277 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: of this kind of work around the Muslim community. And 278 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 2: at that point, one of the things that you did 279 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: is that you also, you had a capacity for empathy. 280 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 3: Because we bring into our stories as much as we 281 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 3: try to be separate from them, our own stuff. And 282 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 3: what do I mean by stuff. It's not just family history, 283 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 3: it's the history of the heart, right, It's the ways 284 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 3: in which struggles have played out in our own lives 285 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 3: that then enable us to connect with people we're writing about. 286 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 3: Even though we're supposed to be so separate and so 287 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 3: quote unquote objective. Actually the thing that gets the story 288 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 3: is that connection. So often. 289 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 2: When we come back, I continue my conversation with Andrea Elliott, 290 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 2: and we're going to talk about the so called rules 291 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 2: of journalism and how Andrea navigated ethical challenges while reporting 292 00:17:48,440 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: on Dissani and her family. Stay with us not by yes, Hey, 293 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 2: we're back. And when we left off, we learned about 294 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 2: how Andrea Elliott's upbringing as a Chilean American helped her 295 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 2: to better report on communities that she wasn't always a 296 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 2: part of. Let's get back to my conversation with journalist 297 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: Andrea Elliott about her Pulitzer Prize winning book Invisible Child. 298 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 2: You were able to find your way into being recognized 299 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 2: as a great journalist and writer at the New York Times. 300 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 4: Not an easy feat. 301 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: So you tell the New York Times, you boss woman, say, 302 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 2: we need to cover childhood, poverty, homelessness, homeless families. 303 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 4: Something is happening in our city. 304 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well this has its roots in a very personal place, 305 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 3: which is both the place of motherhood, and that's a 306 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 3: figurative place and then the literal place. So I was 307 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 3: on maternity leave with my second baby and having been 308 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 3: in the postpartum territory. It's not easy. And I also though, 309 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 3: was thinking, God, what do I want to do next? 310 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 3: I have this pause, this incredible moment of respite, and 311 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 3: I pulled off of my shelf this book that was 312 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 3: like covered in dust because we don't do the best 313 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 3: job at home. 314 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 4: From high school. 315 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 3: But that was this like eternal classic by Alex Kotlowitz 316 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 3: called There Are No Children Here, which is beautiful work 317 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 3: of narrative nonfiction about these two brothers growing up in 318 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 3: the projects in Chicago. Hadn't looked at it since high school, 319 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 3: and I start reading it again and that's when a 320 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: light went on and it was just a new idea. 321 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 3: It was like, well, how much has changed? It was 322 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 3: literally just a question. It was just a question and 323 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 3: the first answer I got to that question led to 324 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 3: a whole new set of questions because it was shocking, 325 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 3: and that was nothing's changed almost nothing. Sure, the safety 326 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 3: net's got a little better, but basically, twenty years after 327 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 3: this book came out, we had the same child poverty 328 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 3: rate in America, one in five. It's like one of 329 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 3: the biggest child poverty rates in the world, by far, 330 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 3: the worst among superpowers. 331 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: So why? 332 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 3: And then that just led me down the path of 333 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 3: wanting to write about child poverty. And I've made a 334 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 3: pitch to do it and was very lucky to have 335 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 3: the editors that I have, who we were very aligned. 336 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: So and one of the things about your work with 337 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 2: Invisible Child is that you make it clear that, yes, 338 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 2: this is a story about one child, one family, but frankly, 339 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: you make this into a story about our country. This 340 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 2: is a story about systemic issues of poverty and deep 341 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: racism in one of the world's most advanced, capitalist, industrialized, 342 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 2: and wealthiest cities. Can you talk a little bit about 343 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 2: this decision to say, look, it's not about just this 344 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 2: shelter in Brooklyn, this is about centuries of history in 345 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 2: our country. 346 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 4: So what did you set out to do. 347 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 3: What I can tell you about the process itself was 348 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 3: sheer terror. It was maybe a year or two into 349 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 3: reporting out the book to try to do right by 350 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 3: all of the sign posts that I had encountered as 351 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 3: a reporter while reporting the original series, that I started 352 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 3: to see, Oh my god, this is a story about everything. 353 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 3: That's how it felt. It's a story about everything in America. 354 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 3: What was most important to me was, I think, to 355 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 3: allow the book to follow the same process that I 356 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 3: had experienced as a person in Designy's presence. I went 357 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 3: in thinking it was one particular story, was one thing, 358 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 3: this thing called homelessness, which is a label. It's a 359 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 3: label that we give to a problem. And I then 360 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 3: proceeded to see that each label was a signpost leading 361 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 3: to another label, which then led to another label, and 362 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 3: they were interconnected. You couldn't understand homelessness without looking at poverty, 363 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 3: and you couldn't understand poverty without looking at race, and 364 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 3: you couldn't look at race without looking at centuries of trauma, essentially, 365 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 3: and all of these things ran through this family. 366 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 2: So you first published a series of articles about Desani 367 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 2: in The New York Times in twenty thirteen, and well 368 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 2: because it's The New York Times, right, Desanni gets this 369 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 2: extraordinary attention, right. I mean, she's at the mayor's inauguration 370 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: with Bill de Blasio. People start sending her money, she 371 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 2: starts getting offers, and for you, Andrea, this presents like 372 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: this critical and strange challenge as a journalist. 373 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,959 Speaker 3: A lot I will never know about the impact of 374 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 3: my presence. What I can say with all certainty is 375 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 3: that in the aftermath of the series running, Desani's life 376 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 3: momentarily changed. She went from invisible child to most visible 377 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 3: child in the city. And that stayed that way for 378 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 3: I would say a few weeks, and then all the 379 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 3: attention waned and money came in to Legal Aid. Legal 380 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 3: Aid set up a trust for the family. The family 381 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 3: chose mostly not to take that money, but to put 382 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 3: it away for college. They were trying to be disciplined. 383 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 3: They wanted all the same things that other parents want. 384 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 3: I really believe that, And it's kind of striking to 385 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 3: me how little changed ultimately, given the impact that the 386 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 3: series had, I was expecting more of a kind of 387 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 3: foundational change, And what I saw was that the problems 388 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 3: of poverty run so deep, and they are so intractable 389 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 3: that that this minor kind of influx of attention and 390 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: even funds for college really did a little to change 391 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 3: the family's life. And so then it became, well, what 392 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 3: am I following because I continue to follow her life, 393 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 3: what am I seeing unfold? That really is just an 394 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 3: authentic experience of a family struggling with poverty. 395 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 2: But the core thing was, and this is again, why 396 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: did Dissani become the central character of your work is 397 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: because Desanni is a deep individual complex and she is 398 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 2: not actually going to let herself get pushed around. And 399 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: the thing that you write about, right, was that she 400 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 2: was like, I'm not going to change who I am 401 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: to be here in this place of so much privilege. 402 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: And that's a pretty extraordinary story for a child, a 403 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 2: young woman who is said to be a victim to 404 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 2: not have voice. 405 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 4: To you know, etc. No, she's actually. 406 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: She never saw herself as a victim. She always had 407 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 3: a voice. And that's why I always have a problem 408 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 3: with the idea of giving a voice to the voicelessness. 409 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 3: The voicelessness is in our own context, right, It's that 410 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 3: we haven't allowed for those voices to be heard. Those 411 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 3: voices are heard by others, she was not invisible. This 412 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 3: title comes from Desani. It came from her own observation 413 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,479 Speaker 3: about how she wasn't seen. She sees herself, She can 414 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 3: see herself in the mirror, her family can see her, 415 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 3: her community can see her. But this broader world that's 416 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 3: totally out of her reach, where these extremes coexist as 417 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 3: well of wealth and poverty. In that world, she wasn't seen, 418 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 3: and so she was seeing her invisibility. 419 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 2: Did you ever have a situation where your editors said, 420 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 2: you know what, we think, you're just getting a little 421 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 2: bit too close. You need to pull back a little bit. 422 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 2: Did you pay for that? I'm trying to say, pizza, 423 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: You know those kinds of things. 424 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 3: Oh well, those kinds of conversations were constantly happening. 425 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: Because you had to say, look, she got out of school, 426 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 2: she was hungry, I bought our a slice of pizza. 427 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 3: Let's talk about the rules of journalism and how misaligned 428 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 3: they are with the reality of vulnerable people when you're 429 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 3: actually writing about folks on the margins. Right, So the 430 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 3: rules are important. They keep our work sacrisanct hopefully or 431 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: at least integrity filled. They're worth defending, and those rules 432 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 3: include things like, we can take a source out to lunch, 433 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 3: but we're going to pay. We're not going to allow 434 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 3: the source to treat us. Okay, fine, I know the 435 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 3: places where city hall reporters take their sources. What was 436 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 3: to stop me from taking Chanelle to the same place? 437 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 3: Which I did? And at the time it's probably way 438 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 3: more Now she balked at the fact that a hamburger 439 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 3: was sixteen dollars. She said, do you know what I 440 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 3: could do with sixteen dollars? I said, but I want 441 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 3: you to experience because I'm allowed under our rules with 442 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 3: this credit card, this is New York Times on it 443 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 3: to take you to lunch. You are my source, So 444 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 3: let's meet here and have lunch. Usually we would go 445 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 3: to places i McDonald's. This was kind of a one off, 446 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 3: but I just I always think back to that moment 447 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 3: because of the way she challenged me. But if you 448 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 3: just gave me this sixteen dollars but I can't, And 449 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 3: what about that? 450 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 4: And how weird is that role? 451 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 3: Because what if the transaction for the person is the 452 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 3: food itself, then how does how does that rule work? 453 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 3: The rule is no cash can exchange hands. We don't 454 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 3: pay people for at source, obviously, and for a very 455 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 3: good reason. But then it becomes much more complicated when 456 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 3: you look at the norms of the newsroom, at the 457 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 3: kind of structure of rules that assume that the and 458 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 3: the reporter belonged to the same class, correct, right. I 459 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 3: think a lot of the conversations early on, which were 460 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 3: so important, we're about whether or not to step in, 461 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 3: whether or not to intervene. It wasn't about money, because 462 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 3: our rules were clear, but it was what if you 463 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:23,959 Speaker 3: see something that merits actually getting in the middle of things, 464 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 3: because otherwise you are accepting suffering as a reporter, which 465 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 3: is just unacceptable. Right. A child can't suffer in front 466 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,479 Speaker 3: of you without you wanting to do something about it, 467 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 3: or even morally being obligated to do something about it. 468 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 3: And so that became this constant, constant struggle that we 469 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 3: were wrestling with in the newsroom. Very specifically, it's centered 470 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 3: around Desanni's tendency to get into really brutal, violent fights 471 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 3: after school, and the photographer, Ruth Remsen, who's a war photographer, 472 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 3: and I would break these fights up because we are 473 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 3: the responsible adults, right, we're hanging out with Disani, we 474 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 3: don't want to see this kid we care about get 475 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 3: beaten up or beat up anyone else. What are we 476 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 3: supposed to do just watch kids tear apart each other? 477 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 3: And no. So I talked to Chanel. I was like, 478 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 3: we've had a meeting at the newsroom. We feel really 479 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 3: uncomfortable watching Deason again into fights, but we do feel 480 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 3: that it's important to capture the reality. If she gets 481 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 3: into another fight in front of me, do I have 482 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 3: your permission to simply observe what happens? 483 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 4: And she was like. 484 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 3: Absolutely, like why are you breaking up the fights? This 485 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 3: is part of our culture. Who are you to be 486 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 3: judging our culture? And you know there are people, by 487 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 3: the way, within Chanelle's culture who would also argue with 488 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 3: her and say that's not our culture. So there's lots 489 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 3: of perspectives. But I was there to tell this family story, 490 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 3: and so we agreed the next time we would not intervene. 491 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 3: And it was probably the worst moment of my life 492 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,239 Speaker 3: as a reporter because I watched Desani get beaten up. 493 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: So I find it interesting that two Latinas who win Pulitzers, 494 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 2: you with your book, myself with the Suavit podcast, and 495 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,959 Speaker 2: yet the both of us are constantly questioning our field, 496 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 2: pushing journalism, pushing these ethics that were created by I 497 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 2: don't know, general. 498 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 3: Mad Men era newsroom normal. 499 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 2: And I wonder if what you think about that the 500 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 2: fact that the both of us, right, we kind of 501 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: are these outsiders who are deeply on the inside, and 502 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 2: yet the both of us are saying, but the humanity 503 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 2: of this, but there's a system here that is so 504 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: much bigger than us, and so what is our responsibility? 505 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 3: I think mean, I love that you frame it like 506 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 3: the two of us as latinas I think it's it's 507 00:30:54,120 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 3: a broader family of reporters of different backgrounds, including like 508 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 3: Casey Parks at the Washington Post or. 509 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 2: Alex Scott Lewis. In other words, it's journalists of conscience. 510 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 2: And I tie it back to Frederick Douglass I to 511 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 2: be wells will we die? That they are journalists, but 512 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: they were journalists of conscience, and you don't have to 513 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: be not white to be a journalist of conscience. 514 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 3: Where I was going is just like journalists who are 515 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 3: getting these stories that are not typically seen, heard, or 516 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: even known, right, and that requires engaging with parts of 517 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 3: America that don't follow the same rules as these organizations 518 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 3: that we represent, and so that then naturally brings to 519 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 3: the surface this kind of reckoning, right, like, what are 520 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 3: the rules? What should they be? There is no guidebook 521 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 3: really for this kind of reporting, reporting on the vulnerable, 522 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 3: and so what do we do? And I think one 523 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 3: thing we do is we square with the reader. So 524 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 3: that's where the integrity I think gets protected of the 525 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 3: work is if I've crossed the line, I'm going to 526 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 3: say that I did, and here's how and why, and 527 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 3: just so you know, these were the rules, and these 528 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 3: were the times where maybe the rules ended up getting forgotten. 529 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 2: So Andrea, you know, we try to be as transparent 530 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: as we possibly can, try to be as honest as 531 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 2: we possibly can, and yet our profession, the profession of journalism, 532 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: were being attacked left and right, and we continued to 533 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 2: lose people in our profession. For example, in twenty twenty three, 534 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: it's being called the Great American Layoff of journalists, which, yeah, 535 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: it included futuro media, which broke my heart. But many 536 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 2: of the journalists laid off across the country were Latinos 537 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 2: and Latinas, many of them who report specifically about these 538 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 2: communities that are vulnerable. So how how are you, Andrea, 539 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 2: kind of processing this moment of understanding our profession in 540 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: this precise historical moment. 541 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 3: What I always come back to is, regardless of the 542 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 3: business model, regardless of the fluctuations of the market, regardless 543 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 3: of the way that people are getting their news and 544 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 3: how that shakes up newsrooms and budgets, the hunger and 545 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 3: need for human story is permanent. It is so central 546 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 3: to our existence as people. And I have to believe that, 547 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 3: because that's a fact, that stories are as important as 548 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 3: the air we breathe, that journalism will find its way. 549 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 3: I have to believe that, otherwise we're basically in end times. 550 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 3: And then what does that look like? You have to 551 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 3: have that hope. And the hope isn't even in oh, 552 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 3: it's we're going to figure it out. No, it's that 553 00:33:58,480 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 3: we need stories. 554 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 4: We need we. 555 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 3: Survive on other people's stories. We are carried forward by 556 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 3: the examples of others. The story is so central to 557 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 3: who we are as people, and so therefore there will 558 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 3: be a way. 559 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 2: Andrea Elliott, thank you so much for all of your work. 560 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: Thank you for being a great colleague and a great journalist, 561 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: great writer. 562 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 3: Maria in A Jossa. You are my longtime hero and 563 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 3: I couldn't be happier to be on this show with you, 564 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 3: so thank you for having me. 565 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Renaldo Leanos Junior. It was 566 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 2: edited by Marta Martinez. It was mixed by Stephanie Lebau. 567 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 2: The Latino USA team includes Victoria Strada, Andrea Lopez Cruzado, 568 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 2: Dori mar Marquez, Mike Sargent, Noor Saudi, and Nancy Trujillo. 569 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 2: Benilee Ramirez is our co executive producer. Our senior engineer 570 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 2: is Julia Caruso. Our marketing manager is Luis Luna. Our 571 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 2: theme music was composed by Zenia Robinos. I'm your host 572 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: and executive producer Marienno Posa. Join us again on our 573 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: next episode. In the meantime, you can find us on 574 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 2: all social media platforms now including TikTok, YouTube and you 575 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 2: know I'll see you on Instagram. Astella Proxima nontevayas Chao. 576 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: Latino USA is made possible in part by wk Kellogg Foundation, 577 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: a partner with Communities Where Children Come First, New York 578 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: Women's Foundation. The New York Women's Foundation funding women leaders 579 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 1: that build solutions in their communities and celebrating thirty years 580 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: of radical generosity and funding for Latino USA is. Coverage 581 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 1: of a culture of health is made possible, in part 582 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: by a grant from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. 583 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 2: Exactly, it was like, wait, what is the subway doing 584 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 2: right underneath my apartment? 585 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 4: All right, well, we made it. 586 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 2: We survived the second New York City earthquake in the 587 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: twenty first century.