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Cards issued by JP 38 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 4: Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC subject to credit approval. 39 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: Offers subject to change. 40 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 4: Terms apply. 41 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 3: Hey Daniel, have you guys figured out what's inside a 42 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 3: black hole? 43 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: Yet unfortunately not still pretty confused. 44 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 3: Okay, it sounds like you guys need to go back 45 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 3: to the drawing board get some new ideas. 46 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: I know, but like from where the smartest people on 47 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: the planet have been stuck in this question for literally decades. 48 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: See that is where you are going wrong. You are 49 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: looking to the smart people. If you need wacky, crazy ideas, 50 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 3: you need to ask the wacky crazy people like me. 51 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: You're saying we should go to the insane asylum and 52 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: ask people what they think is inside a black hole. 53 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 3: I think that they could come up with some good ideas. 54 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: They might be insane enough in the membrane to figure 55 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 3: it out. 56 00:02:49,480 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: Insane in the brain. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle 57 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: physicist and a professor at UC Irvine. And if you 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: didn't get my Cypress Hill reference, you're officially young. 59 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 3: I am Katie. I am not a physicist. I like animals, though, 60 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 3: and I like the universe. And I got that reference. 61 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: Because you're insane in the membrane. 62 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 3: Exactly, just the membrane, though the rest of me is 63 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: perfectly sane. 64 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: And Welcome to the podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain the 65 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: universe in which we do our best to bring this 66 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: insane universe into your brain. We try to make it 67 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: all make sense, from the tiniest little quantum particles to 68 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: the hugest swirling accretion disks surrounding super massive black holes. 69 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: We have this hunch that maybe the universe is understandable, 70 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: that it's a big mathematical puzzle, that we can eventually 71 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: figure it out if we put all of our brains 72 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: and membranes together, and our goal on this podcast is 73 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: to explain all of it to you. 74 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: Now, that's another song, super Massive black Hole. I think 75 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 3: news soundtrack to that really sort of indie movie called Twilight. 76 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: Are you sure that wasn't part of the hip hop 77 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: wars in the nineties, super Massive black Hole. 78 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 3: I couldn't say. In the nineties, I was not cool 79 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 3: enough to know. 80 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: Well, you know, maybe there are some secrets in music 81 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: that can help us crack the mysteries of the universe, 82 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: because you know, some people say the universe is musical 83 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: and there's a connection between music and mathematics, right, So 84 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: maybe we have been looking in the wrong places. 85 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I've heard this in terms of string theory, 86 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: where strings aren't you know, they're not like violin strings, 87 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 3: but it's something about some like either vibration or pattern. Honestly, 88 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 3: I do not understand it, but you know, I think 89 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 3: that is interesting saying that there is the idea that 90 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 3: a lot of the mysteries of the universe could be 91 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 3: about certain frequencies or patterns, which is also what is 92 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 3: the major components of music exactly. 93 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: Although if you listen to Terrence Howard on Joe Rogan, 94 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: it's all frequencies. 95 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 3: Man, is all frequencies? 96 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: Man? 97 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 3: Why am I not on Joe Rogan? See, I just 98 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: can say that too. 99 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: I can because you believe that one times one equals one, 100 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: and Terrence Howard proves that it equals to and wow, 101 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: that's why you're just not mathematically qualified. 102 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 5: To be. 103 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 3: I just can't think outside of the box enough to 104 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: not do mouth good exactly. 105 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: But we are fascinated by the mysteries of the universe. 106 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: We do think that there are mathematical solutions to them. 107 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,239 Speaker 1: Maybe they are encoded in the sonatas of Mozart. Maybe 108 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: the engineers are right that it's all vibrations all the 109 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: way down. But we hope that there is an explanation. 110 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: And one of the biggest things that we need an 111 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: explanation for is how to think about the universe on 112 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: the smallest scales. What happens when things get really, really 113 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: dense and really really tiny. One of the biggest puzzles 114 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: in modern physics is how to put together the two 115 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: pillars of our understanding of the universe, relativity and quantum mechanics. 116 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: We've been banging our heads against this for almost one 117 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: hundred years, basically since we've had relativity and quantum mechanics 118 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: and realize that they are fundamentally incompatible at the smallest scale, 119 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: and we've been trying to figure this out. And today 120 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: on the podcast, we'll be exploring yet another attempt to 121 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: unify relativity and quantum mechanics. So on the podcast today 122 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: we'll be answering the question what is membrane theory? 123 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 3: Okay, as a biology nerd, I'm pretty sure I can 124 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 3: answer this. A membrane is a semi permeable barrier. So 125 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 3: I did it. I solved it. Congratulations to me. 126 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: What about the audio barrier between us and the listeners 127 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: the ideas from our brains and that their brains have 128 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: we permeated a membrane? I? 129 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 3: Yes, why not? I don't know enough about audio engineering 130 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 3: to say no or philosophy, So I'm gonna say yes. 131 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 3: We're like salt ions through the airwaves, permeating the membrane, 132 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 3: so hopefully you can reach homeostasis. 133 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: So I'm not surprised that when you heard this phrase 134 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: you thought of cellular membranes divisions between solutions. You want 135 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: to keep osmosis from like moving all these bits of 136 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: salt over here, or using fats to keep that over there. 137 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: But it's not just in biology that we have membranes. 138 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: It turns out that they are fundamental concept in theories 139 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: of quantum gravity. But before we dig into that, I 140 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: was curious what everybody else out there thought when they 141 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: heard membrane theory, So, as usual, I asked our andre 142 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: of volunteers to speculate on the question without the opportunity 143 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: to use Google. So if you would like to join 144 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: this group of volunteers in the future, please don't be shy. 145 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: Write me to questions at Danielandjorge dot com. We all 146 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: want to hear what you have to say. In the meantime, 147 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: check out these answers from listeners. What do you think 148 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: membrane theory is? Here's what people had to say that's 149 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: the first time I'm hearing golf it. 150 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 6: But if I had to guess membranes, the function of 151 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 6: the memoranes are to pass on stuff in one direction 152 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 6: and other stuff not in the other direction. So maybe 153 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 6: we're talking about it's a mechanism about particle coexistence through 154 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 6: a wall of things, something like that. 155 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 7: Just I guess what comes to mind for me on 156 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 7: that one is that it's something that you use to 157 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 7: separate things, like in a fuel cell car. You know, 158 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 7: you separate components and you make energy. Maybe it's like 159 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 7: a desalination thing where you take salt. 160 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: Out of water. 161 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 7: So maybe there's some membrane here in the universe that's 162 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 7: uh in that in space. 163 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 5: I'm guessing membrane theory has to do with the outside 164 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 5: of a cell. Maybe how the membrane, you know, protects 165 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 5: the core of the cell and how it stays intact. 166 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: I think it has to do with string theory. There 167 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: are strings that vibrate in there one dimension, and I 168 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: think a membrane is a. 169 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 4: Something similar that can have more than one dimension. 170 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 3: See, I'm I'm definitely with the theory that everything is 171 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 3: a cell. If you look at the universe, it's just 172 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: a giant body for some kind of huge animal. You know, 173 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 3: it makes sense, right, you're saying the universe is alive. Yeah, 174 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 3: it's a big maybe a giant cat. I don't know, 175 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 3: have you ever looked at like a black cat? Right, 176 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 3: it's it kind of has that sort of quantum mechanics 177 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 3: and general relativity paradox. Right, it's like a fluid, it's 178 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 3: a solid, it's sweet and le and then it bites you. 179 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 3: So yeah, I think the universe could be a giant cat. 180 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 3: And when you get down to the tiniest components there 181 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 3: cells and yeah, it's been solved. 182 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: You're welcome and we're done, Thank you very much. Physics 183 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: is over. Katie wins all of the Nobel prices. 184 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 3: Yay. 185 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: Well, we're definitely hearing from listeners the connection to biology, 186 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: which makes a lot of sense, and the idea of 187 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: having two dimensional surfaces or even connections to string theory. 188 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of good stuff in here that 189 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: we're going to dig into and explain in this episode. 190 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: But a plus to all the listeners. 191 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 3: I mean, I would assume that, yes, it's probably not 192 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 3: like a cellular membrane, but if we're talking about a membrane. 193 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: I would guess it is some kind of barrier through 194 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 3: which certain physics transactions can occur. But that would be 195 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 3: my guess. 196 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 1: Is this whole podcast a physics transaction? We are taking 197 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: your time and exchanging it for knowledge, is like a 198 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: physics transaction, you know what? 199 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: That's pretty good. I think I'm wondering about the exchange 200 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 3: rate though, because that's that's the real issue. 201 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we're too high on the jokes permitt 202 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: it and too low and the physics permitted so far. 203 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: Let's try to flip that right now. 204 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: All right, well, okay, let me have it, Like, what's 205 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 3: going on with this membrane theory? 206 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: So membrane theory is an attempt to crack the puzzle 207 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: of quantum gravity. So let's start with that. What is 208 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: the puzzle of quantum gravity? Why do we want to 209 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: crack it? What is the issue? Why are all the 210 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: smart people on the planet thinking they need to go 211 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: into the insane this islum if they can't figure this out. 212 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: The basic issue is we have two ways to describe 213 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: the universe. There's general relativity, which tells us about space 214 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: and time and energy and the expansion of the universe. 215 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: Describes a lot of the big stuff. It tells us 216 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: how gravity works and how the universe is expanding and 217 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: how far away galaxies are getting red shifted and all 218 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: that good stuff. And then we have quantum mechanics, which 219 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: describes the really small stuff, the little particles light and 220 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: all the kind of quantum fields and sort of our 221 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: understanding of microscopic matter. And the issue is that we 222 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: don't know how to make these two things play well together. 223 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 3: They don't play nice because I've actually, I think I've 224 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: been on the show a couple times when we talked 225 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 3: about this conundrum, and so it seems like, you know, 226 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 3: when you have these mathematical theories that describe each of them, 227 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 3: it works within it. So the general relativity math works 228 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 3: within general relativity. It seems really nice and neat and good. 229 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 3: Same thing for quantum mechanics. But then when you try 230 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: to cross the beams the math beams, suddenly it doesn't work. 231 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 3: Like if you're trying to use general relativity math to 232 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 3: describe what you know is observed in experiments happening on 233 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 3: sort of the quantum level or vice versa, it no 234 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 3: longer works. Is that more or less? 235 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love crossing the math beams. That's awesome. I 236 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: want a T shirt that says I'm crossing the math beams. 237 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's basically the idea. And remember that what 238 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: we're doing in physics is trying to build a mental 239 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: model that describes the universe easy. Those mental models are 240 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: always imperfect, they're always incomplete, they're always simplifications. Even if 241 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: you're talking about like the flight of a baseball, Right, 242 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: how does a baseball fly across the field? Well, I'm 243 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: going to use a parabola in Newton's equations, but I 244 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: can't do the calculation very easily. I fad to include 245 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: air resistance, so I decide I'm not including that because 246 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: it's probably not important, and really, to answer my question 247 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: of whether the guy's going to catch it, air resistance 248 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I'm not going to include effects of humidity 249 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: and the sizillion things I could include in my model 250 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 1: to make it a very accurate description of the universe 251 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: that I don't need to to answer my question. And 252 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: so the models that we build to answer questions about 253 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: the universe are always incomplete. There are always approximations, but 254 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: they're still very, very useful, And that's The issue with 255 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics and general relativity is that they are two 256 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: different approximate descriptions of the universe that make different approximations, 257 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: different foundational assumptions that go in building those models that 258 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 1: are incompatible, and they let us describe different parts of 259 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: the universe, as you say, very very well. So if 260 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: I want to talk about how two electrons scatter off 261 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: of each other, I can use quantum mechanics and talk 262 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: about how they interact and the virtual particles they exchange 263 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: or the fields that ripple between them, and it all 264 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: works out amazingly well. And that can ignore what general 265 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: relativity would do in that situation because it's irrelevant. It's 266 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: like the wind resistance or the humidity on the baseball. 267 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't affect the calculations, so I can ignore it. 268 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: Or if I want to say, hey, how do galaxies 269 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: form and how do they swirl around each other? I 270 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: can use general relativity to answer those questions, and I 271 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: can ignore the quantum effects because who cares what one 272 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: electron does in Andromeda doesn't affect whether our galaxy is 273 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: going to crash into that galaxy. General relativity dominates. The 274 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: amazing thing is that in every situation in our universe, 275 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: you can use either quantum mechanics to explain it or 276 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: general relativity and ignore the other one. They're like a 277 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: perfect divorced couple that have separate to their lives and 278 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: never have to interact. You know, there are no arguments 279 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: at McDonald's about who's taking the case. They're co parenting 280 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: the universe. And so you might think, all right, great, 281 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: what's the problem, right co parents can live in harmony 282 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: without ever talking to each other. Well, there's two problems. 283 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: One is that's really unsatisfying, right, Like, we want one 284 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: explanation for the universe. We don't want two different explanations. 285 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: We don't want a Russiaman universe where both parents tell 286 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: very very different stories about what's going on. Right. 287 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 3: Note, we think that. 288 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: There is one story about the universe. There's something that's happening, 289 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: and that there are rules that are being followed, and 290 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: we want to know what they are. We want our 291 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: best approximation of them. So it's deeply unsatisfying to have 292 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: two different, incompatible theories of the universe. And also, there 293 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: are moments in the universe, a very few places in 294 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: times when you can't ignore one war or the other. 295 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: You need both things like the heart of a black 296 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: hole a singularity. In general, relativity is incompatible with quantum mechanics, 297 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: which says you've got to have some fuzziness or the 298 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: Big Bang or the very early universe when things were really, 299 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: really hot and dense. You need the rules of quantum 300 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: mechanics to describe those particles. But you can't ignore gravity 301 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: because things are so hot and so dense. So we 302 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: desperately want to find a way to bring these two together. 303 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: But as you say, the math beams don't cross, right. 304 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 3: I mean, it's like, as physicists you now kind of 305 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 3: have to play as a couple's therapists, where you have 306 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 3: these two theories that are essentially speaking different languages, and 307 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 3: they cannot come to an agreement, and they can be 308 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 3: perfectly functional on their own, but then when they come together, 309 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: they are unable to communicate. And the Yeah, I mean, 310 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 3: it seems like resolving that difference between the two theories, 311 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 3: like resolving why they don't work with each other, would 312 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 3: actually reveal some big things that we just fundamentally have 313 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 3: not understood yet about the universe. 314 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: M M. You know, I've heard anecdotally about couples that 315 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: don't actually speak the same language you know where they 316 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: have like literally have now yet they've fallen in love. 317 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: That's actually true, they have some other love language. 318 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 3: Hi language interpret of there love. 319 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: At first sight, right, doesn't love it first word. 320 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 321 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: Anyway, you're right that quantum mechanics in general relativity don't 322 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: get along, and one of the reasons is that they 323 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: are built on very different assumptions. Like general relativity says 324 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: the universe is smooth, it's continuous, it's precise, there's an 325 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: infinite number of locations. It says that you can divide 326 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: space an infinite number of times, like relativity agrees with 327 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: Zeno's paradox, right that between you and the candy store, 328 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: there's always a distance that you can cut in half. 329 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: Space from the point of view of general relativity is 330 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: something that's smooth and continuous and you always have a 331 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: very specific location, whereas quantum mechanics says not nothing is 332 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: actually smooth and continuous. There aren't not infinite number of 333 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: locations between any two points. Things are discrete and chunky. 334 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: A beam of light is actually made up of little 335 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: pieces of light, little packets of light. Everything in the 336 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: universe is discrete, and it's also imprecise. None of these 337 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: little packets have a precise location that have probabilities. So 338 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: you see the foundations of these two theories are very 339 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: very different. They start from two very different places, and 340 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: so weave in them together has a lot of challenges. 341 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: People have been trying to make theories of quantum gravity 342 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: to say, hey, let's take gravity and try to describe 343 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: it in the language of quantum mechanics. For example, think 344 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: of it like a quantum field. They are exchanging virtual particles. 345 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: They even have a name for these particles. It would 346 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: be the graviton. But when you sit down and try 347 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: to do those calculations, gravity is different from the other 348 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: quantum forces because it couples to itself. Everything that has 349 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: energy has gravity, and so if you emit a graviton, 350 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: it also feels gravity, and it emits gravitons, which emit 351 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: more gravitons. You can infinite number of graviton and then 352 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: you start to get nonsense answers. So as you say, 353 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: the math beams don't cross. 354 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 3: So in terms of gravitons, is that something that has 355 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 3: ever been able to be studying in the same way 356 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 3: that you can study protons or is it just sort 357 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 3: of a byproduct of this? Seems like this could be 358 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 3: a thing based on the math that we have theorized about. 359 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, gravitons are purely theoretical, and they're not even coherently theoretical. 360 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: Theories that have gravitons in them just don't work their 361 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: problems with them, and so it's not just that we 362 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: haven't seen them. We don't even understand how they would 363 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: work if they did exist. And there also would be 364 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: really really hard to spot, Like if you're thinking about 365 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: gravitational waves from rotating black holes, for example, those are 366 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: not gravitons. Those are ripples in space and time. They 367 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: are like a beam of light. Gravitons would be like 368 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: taking that beam of light and breaking it up into photons. 369 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: So you take that gravitational wave and now break it 370 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: up into tiny little gravitons. But even gravitational waves are 371 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: really hard to see. Gravitons would be much much tinier, 372 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: well beyond our capability. But also mathematically they just don't work. 373 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: If you try to do calculations with gravitons, you get 374 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: weird answers, like what's the probability that this electron is 375 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: going to go left. Oh, one hundred and forty percent. 376 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: What that doesn't make any sense, right, And so that's 377 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: telling you that fundamentally there is a problem with the 378 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: mathematics that you need to go deeper and start from 379 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: something else, change one of your assumptions in order to 380 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: make a working theory of quantum gravity. 381 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,479 Speaker 3: I mean this kind of reminds me in biology of 382 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 3: how like the history of biology and medicine, where we 383 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 3: would start to understand things like we would start to 384 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 3: understand how certain medications work, or you know, understand things like, 385 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 3: you know, a man and a woman make a baby 386 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 3: and the like. There seems to be these germinal cells responsible. 387 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 3: But then we didn't have the ability to get tiny 388 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 3: enough inside the human body where we couldn't see like proteins, 389 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 3: we couldn't see you know, maybe we at some point 390 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 3: could see cells, but we couldn't see DNA. So there 391 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 3: were so many strange and interesting theories that kept circling 392 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 3: around trying to get closer and closer to the truth. 393 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: Like there were really funny ones like imagining that there's 394 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 3: just like a tiny person inside of a sperm cell 395 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 3: and then that grew into a baby. But essentially it's 396 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 3: like we were able to make scientific observations, but without 397 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 3: the ability to get small enough in terms of like 398 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 3: we didn't have electron microscopes, we didn't have the technology 399 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 3: or understanding to study DNA. These theories could not kind 400 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 3: of you know, interweave until we got to that point. 401 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 3: And that kind of seems like where, you know, sort 402 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 3: of like what's happening with the universe? Like we're able 403 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 3: to you know, make all of these really interesting scientific 404 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 3: observations and they're not necessarily wrong, but there is some 405 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 3: fundamental aspect that it's not necessarily that it's too small 406 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 3: to see, but something that we can't see yet or 407 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 3: something that is really hard to observe that might help 408 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 3: tie these things together exactly. 409 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: And because it's a question mark, it's deeply unsatisfying to 410 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: not have figured it out. We suspect that when we 411 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: do figure it out, it'll be something new, something fascinating, 412 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: something that tells us about the basic nature of the universe, 413 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: because it's telling us that Gr's description of the universe 414 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: is wrong. Space is not just some bendable manifold, and 415 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: the quantum mechanics description of the universe is wrong in 416 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: some important way. That's what I love about physics, because 417 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: it's not just I have a model in my head 418 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: that is predicting the universe. You can then look at 419 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: that model and ask questions about it that are philosophical 420 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: and like, huh, why does the universe work this way? 421 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: Or you can look at it and say, oh, that's 422 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: why time flows forwards and there's only one dimension of 423 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: it in three dimensions of space. If you have that 424 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: fundamental theory of the universe, we hope that those kind 425 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: of answers can come from it deep insights about the 426 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: very nature of reality. People who think like, oh, that's 427 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: so weird and abstract, I mean, that's like the context 428 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: of our whole lives, you know, our entire existence. Understanding 429 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: the basic nature of reality of space and time and 430 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: matter and energy like that is the stage of our life, 431 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: the context of our existence. The stakes could literally not 432 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: be higher. 433 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,719 Speaker 3: I mean it's interesting because I'm really curious about things 434 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 3: like animal and human behavior, understanding them and understanding things 435 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 3: like perception and you know. But those kinds of questions 436 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 3: I don't see as too fundamentally different from the questions 437 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 3: that physicists are answering because in a way, you know, 438 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 3: our perception of things are sort of like behaviors and stuff. 439 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 3: That is how we're able to perceive the universe. And 440 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 3: so these kinds of questions of understanding. Of course, the 441 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 3: methodologies are very different and what we find are going 442 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 3: to be very different with these two questions, but it's 443 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 3: that's still that kind of desire to understand what are 444 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 3: we and where are we? How do we function and 445 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 3: how do we function in real to our environment? And 446 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 3: you know, of course the universe being the largest environment 447 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 3: that we can think of in which we are. But 448 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 3: you know what, we should probably take a quick break 449 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 3: while I really ponder an egg and the membrane of 450 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 3: an egg and try to think about whether this is 451 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 3: something that could describe the universe. 452 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: With big wireless providers, what you see is never what 453 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: you get. 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That's why 506 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: they're working hard every day to find new ways to 507 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. 508 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: Take water, for example, most dairy farms reuse water up 509 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: to four times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, 510 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: washes the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US 511 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that 512 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: turn the methane from maneuver into renewable energy that can 513 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: power farms, towns, and electric cars. So the next time 514 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: you grab a slice of pizza or lick an ice 515 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: cream cone, know that dairy farmers and processors around the 516 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,959 Speaker 1: country are using the latest practices and innovations to provide 517 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: the nutrient dense dairy products we love with less of 518 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: an impact. Visit usdairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more. 519 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 3: All right, so we are back. I've been staring at 520 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 3: this egg for five minutes, Daniel can attest to that, 521 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 3: and you know, I think maybe the universe could be 522 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 3: an egg with yellow stuff on the inside. What do 523 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 3: you think? 524 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: I love your egg theory of the universe. I want 525 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: to see the math behind it before I really commit 526 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 1: to it. 527 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 3: One plus one equals two? Or wait, one time is 528 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 3: one equals too? I accidentally did I'm so bad at math. 529 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 3: I was trying to make a joke where I did 530 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 3: it bad and I did it correctly. 531 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: Oops oops oops. 532 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 3: So, Daniel, I really want to get deeper into these 533 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 3: ideas because we've talked about how these things don't seem 534 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 3: to add up, and these attempts to make things add 535 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 3: up have in some sense, I don't want to say failed, 536 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 3: but they haven't reached the finish line yet. So, like 537 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 3: rabtons don't make sense yet, are there is there anything 538 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 3: promising where we are seeing some revelations that may help 539 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 3: us get closer to why there is this fundamental miscommunication 540 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 3: between general relativity and quantum mechanics. 541 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: So there definitely has been some progress. Nobody's totally figured 542 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: it out, but some of the smartest folks on the 543 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: planet have some ideas. And before we get into membrane theory, 544 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: you need to take a step back and understand where 545 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: it came from, which is from string theory. 546 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm excited because I remember I remember watching I 547 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 3: think like a PBS nova thing and they tried to 548 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 3: explain string theory and it just confused me more than 549 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 3: I think, you know, like if you just said, like, 550 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 3: imagine what string theory is, I'd probably be less confused 551 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 3: at that point, until after watching this documentary. I'm not 552 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 3: I don't want to be mean to PBS, but I 553 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 3: don't think they really explained it very well because it 554 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 3: was like they were like these vibrating strings like on 555 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,239 Speaker 3: a violin, and it's like, I don't know that that 556 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 3: makes a lot of sense, and I'm confused. You mean, 557 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 3: there's tiny violins everywhere. What's going on? Are the world's 558 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 3: smallest violins making up the universe? So I do want 559 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 3: to understand better. 560 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: All right, Let's see if we can do better than 561 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: Brian Green on PBS. The idea is to avoid some 562 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: of the mathematical problems that come when you try to 563 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: cross the beam those infinities. A lot of those infinities 564 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: come from the basic assumption that things are points, that 565 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: particles are tiny dots, because those have infinities in them. 566 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: There's infinite densities and the zero volume, et cetera. So 567 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: instead of having points, string theory says, what if everything 568 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: is a line? So a point is like zero dimensions, right, 569 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: this doesn't go in any way, but a string is 570 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: one dimension. It's like, well, let's have it have some extent, 571 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: and having it have a length means it's not infinitely densitymore, 572 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: there's like a fundamental length to it, and that avoids 573 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: some of the infinities in the calculations. Is like a 574 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: minimum size to stuff, and that's the length of a string. 575 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: And so these strings would be the fundamental bits of 576 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: the universe. Essentially the universe is strings. But these strings 577 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: can do things. They can wiggle, right, just like strings 578 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: in our world, like a violin. 579 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 3: String can wiggle Daniel, or. 580 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: Or a guitar string if you prefer that. But we 581 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: can't see those wiggles directly, and so what we see 582 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: is something really zoomed out, Like the string wiggles this way, 583 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: it looks like an electron. When you zoom way out, 584 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: the string wiggles that way, it looks like a mue. 585 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: On the string wiggles another way, it looks like a quark. 586 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: So the idea is not that the electrons and the 587 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: quarks are made of tinier particles the way that like 588 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: the atom is made of smaller particles, but that you 589 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: get something fundamentally different. Right, we need something fundamentally different 590 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: to solve this puzzle of quantum gravity. We need a 591 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: new idea, And so we say that these particles are 592 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: instead made of vibrating strings, and they just look like 593 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: different particles because we're too zoomed out to see the details. 594 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 3: I guess for me, the question is like I understand 595 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 3: the difference between a point and a line in terms 596 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 3: of dimensionality, but in terms of like a line of 597 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 3: what Like That's where I get caught up, because I, 598 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 3: you know, usually it's so hard to think about the 599 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 3: fundamental like unit of something because maybe this is just 600 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 3: biology brain, but everything has a smaller thing in it, right, 601 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 3: Like you've got You've got a mouse, and the mouse 602 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 3: has tissues, and the tissues have cells, and the cells 603 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 3: have proteins, and the proteins have molecules, and the molecules 604 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 3: have atoms, and the atoms have quarks, et cetera, et cetera. 605 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 3: I might have skipped a few steps, but you get 606 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 3: the idea, which is that I'm always thinking, like, what 607 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 3: what do you mean, like a string of what? A 608 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 3: line of what? 609 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 5: So? 610 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 3: How has that resolved? Like what is because I'm assuming 611 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 3: it is not like a literal strand of you know, 612 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 3: like in in biology, like a strand of protein. Like 613 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 3: if you're like, there's a string of something, I'm thinking like, oh, 614 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 3: is it proteins? Like you know, is it lipids? What's 615 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 3: it made out of? So in in physics, like what 616 00:32:58,560 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 3: is this line? 617 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question. And I understand what you're saying. 618 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: You're imagining string your mind. And you know, if you're 619 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: thinking about like a line of frosting on a cake, 620 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: you're thinking that squeezed out of some tube, and the 621 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: line of frosting is made out of that frosting, and 622 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: therefore the frosting is the basic universe stuff, not the 623 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: line of it, and so you're wondering, like, well, what 624 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: that string made out of? What is string stuff? The 625 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: answer is, we don't know. And you're right that the 626 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: pattern is that stuff is made of smaller stuff, which 627 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: has made of smaller stuff, which is made of smaller stuff. 628 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: And so far we've never seen anything that is just 629 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: itself that is not made of something small. 630 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 3: That's the truth. 631 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. But we have this hunch. We have 632 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: this hunch that maybe it is that maybe there's a 633 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: bottom to the explanations of the universe. We don't know, 634 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: and there are philosophers out there who argue that it 635 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: could be infinitely regressive, right, that you just could keep 636 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: going forever and ever and ever, and there is no 637 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: foundational firmament to the universe. Everything is made of something smaller. 638 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 3: I hate it either way, Daniel, Like either explanation I did. 639 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 3: It feels uncomfortable somehow, right, Like if the explanation is 640 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 3: like there is a smallest unit and it's a line 641 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 3: that wiggles, I'm like really, And then if you're like no, 642 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 3: but then the line that wiggles can you can infinitely 643 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 3: get smaller and smaller and smaller, and then still that 644 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 3: it's like, really, it's so hard, And I feel like 645 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 3: maybe the reason it's so difficult is that our human 646 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 3: brains are geared towards a certain type of understanding of 647 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 3: things based on what our evolutionary needs are in terms 648 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 3: of something has a start point and endpoint, or something 649 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,959 Speaker 3: is made out of something else and time goes from 650 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 3: point A to point B. When someone who is not 651 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 3: a physicist is trying to think about these things, I 652 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 3: think about stuff that is probably not very relevant to it. 653 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 3: Like when I think of I don't know, you keep 654 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 3: talking about wiggly lines, and I just think about al 655 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 3: dente spaghetti and that's not what it is and it 656 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,959 Speaker 3: can't be. But it's so hard to think of. Okay, 657 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 3: say there's a basic unit that can't get any smaller, 658 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 3: but it's not made out of anything, and that, you know, 659 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 3: it just kind of breaks my brain. I cannot conceive 660 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 3: of that. 661 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: Well, let me put it in another way, which is 662 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: maybe easier to sit with in your brain, which is, 663 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: we don't know whether strings, if they exist, are the 664 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: fundamental basis of the universe, or if they're made of 665 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: something smaller. You can put it that way, right, and 666 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: we can put it that way because we actually don't 667 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: have to know. And this is one of the beautiful 668 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: things about physics is that we can do calculations at 669 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,399 Speaker 1: various scales ignoring the internal details, not having to know them. 670 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: Like when we did that calculation of the baseball flying 671 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: across the field, we didn't have to keep track of 672 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: all the electrons and even the air resistance and all 673 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 1: those details to mostly get the right answer. You can 674 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 1: do physics at lots of different scales. So even if 675 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,399 Speaker 1: the universe infinitely is made of smaller stuff, or if 676 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,280 Speaker 1: there is some fundamental chunk to it, we can still 677 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: do physics about it without even knowing the answer. So 678 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: thanks to the universe for being understandable at lots of levels. 679 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: Even before we figured out quantum gravity. You can imagine 680 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: another scenario where in order to do any calculation you 681 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: had to understand all the little bits inside of it. 682 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: You have to figure out the fundamentals of quantum gravity 683 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: before you could make chicken soup, right, But fortunately in 684 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 1: our universe you can throw baseballs and make chicken soup 685 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: and play violins without understanding all the details, so we 686 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: can make progress. We can say, well, maybe electrons are 687 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: made of strings without knowing whether those strings are also 688 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: made of something else, and still have some insight into 689 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: this layer of the universe, without knowing if there are 690 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: more layers beyond it. 691 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 3: So we've got possible strings that we don't know exactly 692 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 3: if they exist. But it's a line that can wiggle 693 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 3: in the way in which it wiggles forms some kind 694 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 3: of different thing which I can kind of accept at 695 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 3: this point. Is that sort of it? In terms of 696 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 3: string theories, it seems like there would probably be a 697 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 3: lot more complexity involved. 698 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is more complexity. The mathemat of those strings 699 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: is very cool. At first, when people were working it out, 700 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: they were only able to use strings to describe some 701 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: kinds of particles, particles that we call bosons, which are 702 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: photons and the W and the Z and the higgs 703 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: and the gluons. These are all the bosons, the force 704 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: carrying particles. So the original string theory could only describe bosons. 705 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: And then people worked on it and found new ways 706 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: for those strings to wiggle, so they could also describe fermions, 707 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: and that's called super string theory. Super as a reference 708 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: to this other idea, supersymmetry, which connects fermions and bosons. 709 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: Check out our whole episode about that. But so then 710 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: people developed super string theory, and then there was this 711 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: sort of revolution in the nineteen eighties when people got 712 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,720 Speaker 1: really excited about it. They call it the first super 713 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: string revolution, and that's when people realized, wow, this string 714 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: theory is not just a cool mathematical model. It can 715 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: describe all the kinds of particles in our universe. And 716 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: also it seems like a very promising theory of quantum gravity. 717 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: They were able to avoid some of the infinities of 718 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: earlier attempts the problems with gravity by describing things in 719 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: terms of strings. So it was a very exciting time. 720 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 1: A lot of people worked on it, and the problem 721 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: was that they had lots of different ideas. So there's 722 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: not like one string theory or one way to do 723 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: string theory. People figured out a bunch of different kinds 724 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: of string theories, like you can have strings that are 725 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: always open like they're just lines, or strings that are 726 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: closed which means they're loops. Or you can have a 727 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: theory with strings sometimes are open and sometimes are closed, 728 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: or different kinds of ways to solve super gravity. And 729 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: so at the end of the eighties, there was sort 730 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: of a confusion because there were like five different types 731 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: of string theory that were all seemed very very different 732 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: and all kind of worked, and people weren't sure sort 733 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: of where to go from. 734 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 3: There, right, I mean, that seems kind of tricky because 735 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 3: it's almost like you're sort of filling in the gaps, 736 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 3: right with these different theories, and you can it seems 737 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:51,959 Speaker 3: like they were able to come up with different sort 738 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 3: of math or different theories that did fill that gap 739 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 3: in different ways, and so I don't know how you 740 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 3: would pick which one works if they all sort of 741 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 3: can on average kind of like fix that gap. 742 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,760 Speaker 1: And that's very unsatisfying, right, because we think the universe 743 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: is following a set of laws. We think there is 744 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,919 Speaker 1: one set of laws, and so then if you find 745 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 1: like two explanations for the universe that both work, you're like, well, 746 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: which one is really happening? 747 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 4: Right? 748 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 5: You know? 749 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:22,720 Speaker 1: Is a deep philosophical question. 750 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 3: Could there actually be something we're on this level? There 751 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 3: could be multiple sets of rules that all work at 752 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:30,479 Speaker 3: the same time. 753 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, philosophers think it's possible that there are multiple explanations 754 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: for the universe, multiple theories that predict the universe and 755 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: describe it and explain what's happening, but have fundamentally different 756 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: stories about sort of what's going on behind the curtain. 757 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 1: We don't know if that's possible, but there's a group 758 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: of philosophers who think it might be. And boy, I 759 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: hope they're wrong, because that would be very frustrating. In 760 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,720 Speaker 1: the stuber strink community also was hoping they were wrong. 761 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: And we're trying to figure out this puzzle. And one 762 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: way to try to f figure it out is to 763 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: see are there connections between these different theories? Can we 764 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: show that actually these theories are really the same thing 765 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: dressed up in different clothing, Like are we really just 766 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: telling the same story using different words or using different symbols. 767 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: It harkens back to like the nineteen twenties when people 768 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: were developing quantum mechanics, for example, and you had Schrodinger 769 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: he had his wave equation of quantum mechanics, and you 770 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: had Heisenberg he had his matrix formulation of quantum mechanics. 771 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 1: And those two guys did not like each other. In fact, 772 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: they hated each other, and they also disliked each other's ideas, 773 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: Like Heisenberg really didn't like Schrodinger's wave equation. He thought 774 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: it made quantum mechanics like too visual and gave you 775 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: a mental image. When instage, you'd just focus on the 776 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: math of the matrices, and everybody else hated Heisenberg's matrices 777 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: because nobody could understand what they meant. And then a 778 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,959 Speaker 1: few decades later John von Neumann showed actually they're the same. 779 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 1: They make the same calculations. You can convert one into 780 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: the other, and so they're just like two different ways 781 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: to write the same thing, the way that like algebra 782 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 1: and geometry are fundamentally the same. You want to solve 783 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: a system of equations like two lines, you can either 784 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: draw them on a piece of paper and see when 785 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: they cross, or you can do a bunch of algebra 786 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: and solve for it. In the end, those feel like 787 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,240 Speaker 1: two different kinds of math, but they really are revealing 788 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: the same thing, or the same relationship between concepts. So 789 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 1: people were wondering, can we do that for string theory? 790 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: Can we show that these different string theories they're called 791 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: type one, type two A, type two B, so thirty. 792 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 3: Two it sounds like a disease. 793 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 1: And E eight x E eight. These are crazy names, 794 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,800 Speaker 1: I know, terrible, terrible names, be deeply offended. 795 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 3: I have type one string theory. 796 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, can you? So there's a group for that. 797 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: So people were wondering, is it possible these actually are 798 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: different mathematical expressions for the same phenomena, And it was 799 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 1: a hard problem. But there are smart people out there. 800 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: Edwitten maybe one of the smartest dudes ever. He's at 801 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 1: the Institute for Advanced Studies near Princeton, and he was 802 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: playing with these strings. Remember, the strings don't just exist 803 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 1: in our three dimensions of space. The math works best 804 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: if space has nine dimensions. So these strings are one 805 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: dimensional lines through nine dimensional space our three dimensions, and 806 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: then six more dimensions that we can't sense or perceive 807 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: or really experience in any way. But the strings need 808 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: them in order to make their math wiggle correctly. 809 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 3: Hmm, yeah, no, I mean I think this is it's 810 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 3: always a wild time trying to think about other dimensions, 811 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 3: because we could probably explain other dimensions with math, but 812 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 3: to try to conceptualize them, I don't know if that's 813 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 3: even possible with our brains, given that our brains are 814 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 3: three dimensional brains and function in a sort of three 815 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:58,399 Speaker 3: dimensional way. So without your neurons being able to span 816 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 3: into the other six dimension. That seems difficult. 817 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: It is very difficult. You're right. We intuitively think in 818 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: three dimensions. It's very hard to think in additional dimensions. 819 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: It's even hard to think in fewer dimensions. Like if 820 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: you try to imagine a two D sheet or one 821 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: D line, you're imagining it in three D space. You 822 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: put that sheet into three D space, or that line 823 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,720 Speaker 1: in three D space. Or if I tell you imagine 824 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: a zero dimensional dot, you think of a point and 825 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 1: you skitch it out into some three D space because 826 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: that's the natural playground of our mind. So if you 827 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: can't go down the dimension, there's no hope in going 828 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 1: up a dimension. It's really very difficult. 829 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,280 Speaker 3: I almost passed out once trying to think about like nothing, 830 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 3: like going you know, sort of the zero dimension thing, 831 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 3: trying to think about nothing. And I felt very weird 832 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 3: to try to think about that for too long. It 833 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 3: felt like my brain was kind of leaving my body. 834 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 3: Maybe I was just sleepy, I don't know, but yeah. 835 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,360 Speaker 3: There's also that book Flat Landers, where it tries to, 836 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 3: in an artistic way, represent how difficult it is to 837 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 3: bridge the gap between two D existence and a three 838 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 3: D existence. But yeah, fundamentally, even that book is describing 839 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 3: it as a visual experience, where having vision requires three dimensions. 840 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 3: It seems so. 841 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so making progress on this requires super smart 842 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: dudes to do superstring theory. And so ed Witten was 843 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: thinking about these nine dimensional strings, and so those theories 844 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 1: are ten dimensional because it's nine spatial dimensions and one 845 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: time dimension. He was thinking about these nine dimensional strings, 846 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: and he was inspired by this leap from zero dimensional 847 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,320 Speaker 1: points to one dimensional lines strings, and he was wondering, 848 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,240 Speaker 1: should we take it a step further? Instead of thinking 849 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: about these things as one D strings in nine dimensional spaces, 850 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: maybe they're actually two dimensional objects membranes, right, sheets in 851 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: higher dimensional space. And so these would be like two 852 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: D sheets in ten dimensional space, which look like one 853 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,839 Speaker 1: dimension objects strings if you only look at them in 854 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,800 Speaker 1: nine dimensions. So the idea is he invents this extra dimension, 855 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: this eleventh dimension or a tenth dimension of space and 856 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,839 Speaker 1: extends the strings into that space to make them into membranes. 857 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 3: So more like a sheets theory. 858 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, from strings to. 859 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 3: Sheets sponsored by sheets the convenience store and gas station. 860 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: So the exciting thing is that Witten thought that if 861 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: you worked with membranes instead of strings, you could explain 862 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: all these different string theories. That these five string theories 863 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: were actually just five different ways to look at the 864 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: same sheet. So you roll it up this way, it 865 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: looks like one. You roll it up another way, it 866 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: looks like another. You look at it from this perspective, 867 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,720 Speaker 1: it looks like a different string theory. But these five 868 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 1: string theories that people were playing with and confused about 869 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,240 Speaker 1: were actually just like extreme examples of one membrane theory. 870 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,360 Speaker 1: And this is famous talking gives at University of Southern 871 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: California in ninety five where he points this out and 872 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: he makes this connection, and he has this diagram on 873 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: the slide which is just like all five theories, and 874 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: it just like draws lines between them. 875 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,320 Speaker 3: Is it like a corkboard was the aldest shoveled? 876 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: It's exactly like that. Yeah, it's not very compelling as 877 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: a diagram. And even his explanation is somewhat lacking. You know, 878 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 1: he doesn't have all the math. He has sort of 879 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: like this leap of intuition. He has some hints that 880 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: these things do connect to each other. It's like a 881 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,799 Speaker 1: new direction forward, and it's sort of like the way 882 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 1: Fineman worked. You know, Fineman developed QED and he didn't 883 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,360 Speaker 1: work out all the math came later, when like Schwinger 884 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: worked through all the details to prove that Fieman's leaps 885 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: of intuition were correct. Witness sort of similar. He's like 886 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 1: sees these connections in his brain. He knows that it 887 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,359 Speaker 1: can work, even if he hasn't like actually sat down 888 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: and worked through it all. And so this one talk 889 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,720 Speaker 1: in ninety five inspired what they call the second super 890 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,880 Speaker 1: string Revolution and led to like hundreds and hundreds of 891 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 1: papers of people working on membranes. The interesting thing is 892 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: that Witten himself wasn't actually sure that membranes were going 893 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,840 Speaker 1: to work. He was like, h it might be membranes, 894 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 1: it might not be memoranes. I'm not sure. He knew 895 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 1: that these things were connected, but he didn't want to 896 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: actually call his theory membrane theory, so he just called 897 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 1: it M theory, and he wrote in his paper quote, 898 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,760 Speaker 1: we will non committally call it the M theory. Leaving 899 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,839 Speaker 1: to the future the revelation of M to membranes, like 900 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,840 Speaker 1: if people really worked through the math and showed that 901 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,880 Speaker 1: these things were two D objects or actually ten D objects, 902 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,279 Speaker 1: then we could call it membrane theory. But until then, 903 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: let's just keep it m theory in case it turns 904 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: out to be like mouse theory or mama theory or 905 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:42,360 Speaker 1: something else. 906 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I mean I like that your hedge in 907 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 3: your bets. I also like this guy kind of sounds 908 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 3: like there's this I forgot his name, but I think 909 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 3: he is like a quote unquote neurosurgeon who kept claiming 910 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,839 Speaker 3: that he could do like head transplants, and his demonstration 911 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,239 Speaker 3: was a bunch of dried spaghetti and a banana to 912 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,839 Speaker 3: show how you could basically like connect all of the 913 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,799 Speaker 3: arteries and spinal cord and everything. I think maybe the 914 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,440 Speaker 3: banana was supposed to be the spinal cord. Anyways, it 915 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,359 Speaker 3: was like a spaghetti banana demonstration, which did not inspire confidence. 916 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 3: So of course, I think with the physics, when you 917 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 3: go out on a branch in terms of physics, that 918 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 3: it's maybe less risky than trusting someone who says they 919 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 3: can do a head transplant. 920 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think Edwintin I wouldn't trust him to 921 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 1: do a head transplant, but I'm glad that he's around 922 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 1: and he's helping us figure out the mysteries of quantum gravity. 923 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,240 Speaker 1: And it's really cool that he was able to show 924 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,440 Speaker 1: that these theories are related to each other. You know, 925 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 1: there are these funny dualities they find where they showed 926 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,120 Speaker 1: that this theory is mathematically equivalent to that theory. You know, 927 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: like this theory if you make it really strong, looks 928 00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,520 Speaker 1: like that theory if you make it really weak. It's 929 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,319 Speaker 1: fascinating to show that the theories, even though they have 930 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,879 Speaker 1: again very different sort of mathematical foundations, they really are 931 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:10,319 Speaker 1: exploring the same concepts because the symbolism, the notation we 932 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: use is really just a way to describe the abstract ideas. 933 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,120 Speaker 1: And so even if you use different notations and different symbols, 934 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: if you can show that the ideas are equivalent, then 935 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,239 Speaker 1: you really have made a connection between them. And it's 936 00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 1: a relief also to think like, well, maybe there is 937 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:26,879 Speaker 1: a connection, because then we don't have to pick one 938 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 1: of the theories. We don't have to have a reason 939 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 1: to choose one. We can just say, oh, they're all 940 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: just special cases of one unifying idea. And in the end, 941 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: that's what physics is trying to do, is come up 942 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,879 Speaker 1: with some unifying, simplifying explanation for everything we see out 943 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 1: there in the universe. 944 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I find it really appealing not having to 945 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,480 Speaker 3: make a decision between like really hard choices. That sounds great. 946 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,960 Speaker 3: Sign me up for physics. Let's take a really quick break, 947 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,520 Speaker 3: and then when we get back, let's talk more about 948 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 3: membrane theory and how it could tie everything up in 949 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 3: a bow. 950 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, 951 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,240 Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably 952 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:14,320 Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite. 953 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,000 Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy 954 00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,319 Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse 955 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,919 Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. 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I 1001 00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,840 Speaker 3: know that is the desire of physics, and yet it 1002 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:39,360 Speaker 3: seems pretty tricky to do that. 1003 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 1: It is pretty tricky. But along the way we can 1004 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 1: entertain ourselves by amusing notation and making up really weird 1005 00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,600 Speaker 1: phrases and names for things. So, physics, as everybody knows, 1006 00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,520 Speaker 1: is very good at using inappropriate and confusing words to 1007 00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 1: describe things. And so physicists have taken this phrase membrane 1008 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 1: and try to generalize it to any dimensional surface. So, 1009 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,280 Speaker 1: like you know, a membrane is like a two D surface. 1010 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,840 Speaker 1: You can imagine like a sheet or like a cell wall. 1011 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,680 Speaker 1: It's two dimensions, right, And so physicists don't call that 1012 00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 1: a membrane. They call that a two brain. Okay, so 1013 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,279 Speaker 1: that they can call a string a one brain, or 1014 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,160 Speaker 1: like the point a zero brain. 1015 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,359 Speaker 3: That insulting. 1016 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,960 Speaker 1: You're a zero brain. Yeah, exactly. Well even worse is 1017 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,640 Speaker 1: the general phrase for it. If you have a surface 1018 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,400 Speaker 1: in p dimensions, you call it a pea brain. 1019 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,000 Speaker 3: That's what I call my dog all the time. I'm like, 1020 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:38,640 Speaker 3: look at you, old pepe brain. 1021 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:41,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, well you didn't realize you're actually giving it a 1022 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,840 Speaker 1: vast compliment. You're connecting it to the fundamental theory of 1023 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,560 Speaker 1: the universe. Maybe Cookie can reveal something true about reality. 1024 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 3: I look into her eyes, I see these deep pools 1025 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,920 Speaker 3: of knowledge. But then it turns out she just had 1026 00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:54,600 Speaker 3: to burn. 1027 00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:58,280 Speaker 1: Cookie had too many cookies. 1028 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:04,040 Speaker 3: It sounds like, yeah, exactly, So Now I'm confused because 1029 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,840 Speaker 3: I kind of got the idea of the membrane being 1030 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,160 Speaker 3: like it's not a point, it's not a line. It's 1031 00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,520 Speaker 3: like a plane, but not necessarily a flat plane, one 1032 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:19,399 Speaker 3: that could be sort of wrapped around different dimensions. So 1033 00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,200 Speaker 3: I kind of get that. Now we're sort of this 1034 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:27,120 Speaker 3: terminology of zero brain being a point, one brain being 1035 00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,400 Speaker 3: a string, two brain being a two D surface. What 1036 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:35,000 Speaker 3: is the point of having brain in there? Like as 1037 00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,279 Speaker 3: a term, like what And I don't mean this like 1038 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,120 Speaker 3: in a mean way, just like what purpose is that 1039 00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:44,440 Speaker 3: serving in terms of helping with the research or the explanation. 1040 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. Maybe physicists just like saying 1041 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: brain because it does sounds smart, sounds like they're talking 1042 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:55,000 Speaker 1: about their brains. But physicis like to think about different 1043 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,400 Speaker 1: versions of ideas, not to be limited by our experience 1044 00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,040 Speaker 1: of the universe, you know, where we have one dimensional 1045 00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: objects and two dimensional objects and three dimensional objects. They'd 1046 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,120 Speaker 1: like to generalize it and to be opened to other 1047 00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:10,320 Speaker 1: dimensions and other scales. And so for example, Edwinton's first 1048 00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,279 Speaker 1: idea was maybe the way to do this is to 1049 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,080 Speaker 1: use two dimensional sheets, which is fascinating to think like, Okay, 1050 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,520 Speaker 1: the universe isn't made of points of stuff or even 1051 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:23,960 Speaker 1: lines of stuff, but maybe like sheets of stuff. It 1052 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,759 Speaker 1: would be pretty weird if the universe was made of 1053 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: two dimensional things the fundamental nature of it, the basic 1054 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,840 Speaker 1: building block where sheets, that would be weird. But recently 1055 00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,200 Speaker 1: people have been making some progress in an alternative version 1056 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,680 Speaker 1: of m theory in which the brains are five dimensional, 1057 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,080 Speaker 1: so they use five brains, meaning that like, you still 1058 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,080 Speaker 1: work in a theory where there are ten spatial dimensions 1059 00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,560 Speaker 1: in one time dimension, but the fundamental building blocks of 1060 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,080 Speaker 1: the universe are not sheets. There are five dimensional objects, 1061 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,880 Speaker 1: which is pretty hard to think about and impossible to 1062 00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,080 Speaker 1: visualize with our three brains. 1063 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:04,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting thing because usually the intuitive direction of 1064 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,080 Speaker 3: units right of stuff or like building blocks of stuff 1065 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,719 Speaker 3: is like you go from simple to more complex, right, 1066 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:17,120 Speaker 3: so like you'd start out with you know, zero dimensions, 1067 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,359 Speaker 3: than one dimensions, than two dimensions, than three dimensions, than 1068 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,960 Speaker 3: four dimensions, et cetera. Right, and then like as you 1069 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:26,080 Speaker 3: get to the smaller building blocks, the kind of intuitive 1070 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,080 Speaker 3: way is like the smaller the building block, the fewer 1071 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:29,759 Speaker 3: the dimensions. 1072 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:30,000 Speaker 4: Right. 1073 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,680 Speaker 3: But I think it is really interesting the idea that 1074 00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:36,800 Speaker 3: the smallest building block could be something that is actually 1075 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:42,440 Speaker 3: operates among, you know, more dimensions than say we do 1076 00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:49,279 Speaker 3: as human consciousness is because that seems, I don't know, 1077 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,600 Speaker 3: for some reason, that makes more sense to me than 1078 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:57,160 Speaker 3: like the smallest unit being like a point, even though 1079 00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,919 Speaker 3: I cannot there is no way I can even begin 1080 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,719 Speaker 3: to conceive of five dimensions without sounding like I'm high 1081 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:04,560 Speaker 3: on Joe Rogan. 1082 00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,040 Speaker 1: I think you're right, though, and I think the lesson 1083 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:14,080 Speaker 1: there is the universe is filled with surprises. You know. 1084 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,320 Speaker 1: We set up this question with we have a puzzle 1085 00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,960 Speaker 1: about the fundamental nature of reality. Is it quantum mechanical? 1086 00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,200 Speaker 1: Is it general relativistic? Is this something new and weird 1087 00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,400 Speaker 1: and different? And we don't have an answer yet, But 1088 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,640 Speaker 1: this line of investigation building strings into membranes into p 1089 00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,120 Speaker 1: brains is suggesting that we've been thinking about it wrong 1090 00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:36,160 Speaker 1: in terms of tiny little objects that actually at the 1091 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,440 Speaker 1: foundation of the universe, the basic level of reality, the 1092 00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,880 Speaker 1: intellectual firmament that we can finally reach, might be built 1093 00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,680 Speaker 1: out of complex objects, objects with five dimensions to them, 1094 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:50,280 Speaker 1: or even two dimensions. And that's the kind of revelation 1095 00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,040 Speaker 1: we're looking for, you know, that's exactly the hope that 1096 00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,080 Speaker 1: the math points us to structures that tell us something 1097 00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,760 Speaker 1: about what's actually happening out there in reality. And in 1098 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,280 Speaker 1: a way, that's a surprise because I don't expect our 1099 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,360 Speaker 1: intuition to correctly guess how the universe works. I expect 1100 00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,760 Speaker 1: it to be a surprise. It would be quite disappointing 1101 00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,439 Speaker 1: if the universe was a certain way and we were like, oh, yeah, 1102 00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,880 Speaker 1: that makes sense. Instead, I want that moment where we're like, oh, wow, 1103 00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,800 Speaker 1: the universe actually works in this weird way, how could 1104 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,000 Speaker 1: that possibly be? And then it requires like a reworking 1105 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,160 Speaker 1: of your mental model to incorporate that. But that brings 1106 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,120 Speaker 1: you more in aligned with the way the universe actually works. 1107 00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:28,920 Speaker 1: And that's kind of the whole goal of science, right, 1108 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,160 Speaker 1: is to align our brains with the workings of the universe, 1109 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: not just our silly, clueless, primitive guesses about how the 1110 00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:37,400 Speaker 1: universe might work. 1111 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,320 Speaker 3: So, if it was up to me, I would just 1112 00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,640 Speaker 3: hazard a guess that the universe is made out a 1113 00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,840 Speaker 3: little worms, man, just tiny little worms. 1114 00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,120 Speaker 1: I see, So that's your worm brain theory of the universe, 1115 00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:53,440 Speaker 1: my brain theory you and rfkgu. 1116 00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I should run for president and me and my 1117 00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,920 Speaker 3: worms know how to run this country. 1118 00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:05,120 Speaker 1: Terrence Howard, all right, well, thanks for coming along on 1119 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,600 Speaker 1: this crazy mental journey down into the fundamental nature of 1120 00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:12,360 Speaker 1: the universe to think about weird quantum objects, also obeying 1121 00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,800 Speaker 1: the rules of gravity and revealing that the universe is 1122 00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,800 Speaker 1: made out of building blocks that we do not yet understand, 1123 00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,640 Speaker 1: but they might require one brains, two brains, or p 1124 00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:24,160 Speaker 1: dimensional pea brains. 1125 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,520 Speaker 3: Thank you for helping me understand that the universe is 1126 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,960 Speaker 3: not made out of tiny violence. That really helps. 1127 00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,200 Speaker 1: It's only possible because your brain is not a banana. 1128 00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,400 Speaker 1: All right, Thanks very much everybody, and tune in next 1129 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:47,080 Speaker 1: time for more science and curiosity. Come find us on 1130 00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:50,880 Speaker 1: social media where we answer questions and post videos. We're 1131 00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:55,080 Speaker 1: on Twitter, This, Org, Instant, and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, 1132 00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,800 Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is 1133 00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:02,560 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. More podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 1134 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:06,840 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 1135 01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:13,640 Speaker 1: favorite shows. 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