WEBVTT - Nile Rodgers and Chic 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:13.560 Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:16.520 all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:18.599 which you can find a link to in the show 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:22.360 notes for licensing reasons. Each time a song is referenced 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:27.640 in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right, 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:32.000 enjoyed the episode. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:37.680 Broken Record. You've probably heard that riff before. Producer now Rogers. 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:40.159 He's made so many of the classic hits for the 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:45.839 last forty years, Good Times, the Freak, Everybody Dance. He 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.360 collaborated with Dinnah Ross, like a Virgin with Madonna, Get 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:54.160 Lucky by Daft Punk. He's produced everyone Deran, Duran, Grace Jones, 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.920 the Thompson Twins, Lady Gagoff. For goodness sake, he's a legend. 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.720 Here's what you might not know about now Rogers. His 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.360 mother was just thirteen when he was born. Both his 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.600 parents were drug addicts. He sniffed glue starting at age 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.720 ten and sometimes slept in flop houses, but he found 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:16.280 salvation in music, first in a school band, then as 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.640 a jazz guitarist, and finally as a partner in Chic 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.920 with a great bass player Bernard Edwards on this episode 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.119 A Broken Record Now Rogers sits down with my podcast 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.840 partner Bruce Hadlam at New York's Power Station studio in 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.920 Hell's Kitchen, in the very same room where he and 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:38.360 David Bowie created the album Let's Dance. That's the original guitar. Yeah, 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:40.640 this is it. You still only use one guitar? This 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:42.920 is it? I only use one guitar. Do you only 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.520 have one? No, I've about two hundred. Okay, do you 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:50.960 have nice hollow bodies? Mainly I have guitar. Yeah, I'm 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.600 just going to make sure Diangelico the Cristo's L five 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.080 Super four hundred. But this one was win. Did you 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.320 buy that nineteen seventy three? Wow? What wasn't It wasn't 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:04.240 an expensive one? You put it in? No, it's cheap. 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:08.480 I didn't actually, So I traded my jazz guitar and 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.800 they gave me this and three hundred dollars. So if 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.480 in nineteen seventy three, imagine them giving me three hundred 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.160 dollars plus a strap, Like what was a jazz guitar 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.320 worth in those days? Who I mean, even though it's 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.760 a strat, it's not like any other strap Yeah, it's 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:27.880 light as a feather. It's thinner than anything you've ever seen. 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.839 It's the nineteenth strat that they made in nineteen fifty nine. 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:34.520 Look at Look at the difference, and just look at 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.720 Look at the thickness of the headstock there. Just check 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:39.000 it out. Look at that. You can see it all 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:44.000 the way from there. Look at this one. Big hands though, 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:47.040 you don't need a you don't need a thin Wow, No, 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.080 I got small hands? You do? Oh man, Jesus. You 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.760 ever see real guitar players like these guys like Steve 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.720 Y and Shit and Hendrix. Like for me when I'm 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:01.560 when I'm playing classical guitar, I really have to get 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.960 this stretch in certain pieces. That's a big deal for me. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:07.840 Like I have my fingerway down here. Most classical guitar 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.720 players can still you can still see some of their thumb. 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:15.720 But me, you still practice classical. Not really, no point. 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:20.360 But I just did an orchestral version of Let's Dance, 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:25.119 and I had an idea of playing classical guitar, but 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.840 it felt better to have Bully singing with the strings. 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.079 Was amazing. Oh yeah, because unbelievable. I want to ask 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:36.320 you about all the songs but let's start with Let's Dance. 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:38.520 I want you to tell me about the first time 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:43.120 you heard the song. Yeah, the very first time David 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.720 played Let's Dance for me. He walked into my bedroom. 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:52.880 We were in Switzerland, and I believe that he had 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.640 said he had just written it the night before, and 0:03:55.720 --> 0:04:04.880 he walked into the studio and he played something something 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.920 that sounded like that, and it was like and I 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:12.840 was like, that was and he was into it, and 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:17.680 he had the lyrics as well well. He just he 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:23.200 was singing very true to it, like he knew what 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.839 it was. He was singing, it's almost hard for me 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:39.440 to do it. What was he doing? No, I did that. 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:49.960 That's what he's going, Let's dance the radio some like, 0:04:55.000 --> 0:05:01.840 that's way, that's up your face. And then I asked 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.560 him if I could do an arrangement. So I fooled 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:11.240 around with it. I was going and I knew that 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:13.560 he liked jazz, so I could put in the jazzy 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.040 chord and I could tell that he would like it 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.640 right away. But then when I moved it from A 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:22.760 minor up to B flat, it actually had a different vibe. 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:26.360 It it got brighter and like and funkier sounding, so 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:34.120 I started going, you can already hear it like, oh, 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.800 and by the way, when I started playing it, I 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:42.120 only imitated his just for a few bars. I started going, 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:51.480 but that still sounded dark, So then I moved it 0:05:51.560 --> 0:06:15.000 up and octave and I went. But because of the 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.560 whole disco sucks backlash, I didn't want to do chucking 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.479 on David Police album, So you ended up slowing it 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:28.000 down after that, yeah, and only playing like So, if 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.520 you hear the demo that I did in Switzerland, I'm chucking. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:39.640 I'm actually playing, you know, when you hear the original demo, 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.640 I'm doing the not Roger's thing. But when we got 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.480 to America, I made a conscious decision not to do 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.920 that and had the horns sort of doubling me and 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.400 giving it some punch. And when Bowie and I walked 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:59.400 into the studio, Bob Clearmountain was getting the different delays 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.240 that he was going to use on the various instruments. 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:04.640 On the drums, so we wound up having a multi 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:08.400 tap delay happened on the guitar. So even though all 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:13.280 I played was the rhythm that you hear, winds up 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:18.720 sounding something like now, let's dance as many fans. It 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.440 has one very famous fan who always wanted to play 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:25.480 with you. Oh my god, Prince, is that what you? 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.680 Oh my god? Yeah, So for years, I mean, I 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.320 can't even tell you how many years, maybe since the 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:39.040 first time I met Prince. He had asked me to 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.960 play Let's Dance live together somewhere. So we had played 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:47.160 live together in London at a little club in Camden, 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:52.320 and we did not play Let's Dance that night, I'm 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.239 positive of that. We played a bunch of James Brown 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.960 songs and maybe the Ohio Players and some funk songs. 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:02.640 When I walked into the club, he was playing with 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.559 Ron Wood and I don't know what they were playing. 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.720 I don't remember. I was really pretty high in those days, 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.480 but they were probably playing the blues or jamming on 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.560 a popular rock song Sunchina Your Love or something like that. 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.920 And then when I walked in, Prince said, whoa, now, Rogers, 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.480 Now this man has the funk, and he gave me 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:24.920 his guitar and he sat down on the keyboards and 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:27.720 we just jammed for like I don't even know how long, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.240 but that felt like one of the most amazing nights 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:34.720 of my life. And I remember calling the concierge at 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.560 my hotel and asking him if they had purple roses. 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.240 I didn't know if there was, if there was anything 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.439 as the purple rose, if they existed. So I said, 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:46.120 figure out a way to make them purple, either spray 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.439 paint them or put food coloring in them and send. 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.920 I don't know, I was pretty absurd in those days. 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.200 I may have sent like a hundred purple roses to 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.520 Prince's room. Nice, that's crazy, But you ended up playing 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:05.080 the song. Yeah, eventually. So years later he tricked me 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:09.640 a couple of times. We both were living sort of 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.480 in Turks and Keikos a bit. He bought a house 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:16.880 down there and I was part of a resort project 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.880 and one New Year's Eve we played and oh it 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.560 was cool, and John bon Jovi came when John got 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.280 his start here. So John bon Jovi and Prince came 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:29.240 to the show, and Prince said to me, oh, wow, 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.360 tonight is the night. Now I'll get to play. Let's 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.560 stand with you in the band. So we set set 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.920 up his vamp and everything, did the whole soundcheck. We're 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.520 ready for Prince to come out and play New Year's Eve. 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.760 The place is crowded, everybody's having a good time, and 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:44.800 we're doing our thing, and I get into the middle 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.320 of the set and I say, ladies and gentlemen, we 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:49.679 have a special guest coming out tonight. I think you're 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.760 gonna love this, Prince, and I introduced him and the band. 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.079 We're just standing there, No Prince. He doesn't come out, 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.960 and I keep introducing it and I go, uh, Prince. 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:03.000 I don't know if I start screaming friends, because I 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:06.559 knew he was there, and someone told me that he 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:10.840 actually ran and hid because he wouldn't come out. So 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.480 after a while we just said to hell with him. 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:15.640 We played the song, and then at the end of 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.040 the night, I didn't even ask him. Maybe I asked 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:19.760 him why he didn't come out or something I don't 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:21.920 even remember, but we wound up playing. It was great, 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.200 everybody had a good time, but I was embarrassed as hell. 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.120 So now fast forward a year or two later and 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.360 we're playing a show with him at the Superdome in 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:36.080 Louisiana in New Orleans, and he told us that he 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:38.320 was going to come out. Now we're in front like 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.000 seventy thousand people, and I'm not going to be this 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.560 idiot and make the same mistake again, and ladies and gentlemen, 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:47.920 we have a special guest for you tonight. Friends. And 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:49.560 then he doesn't come out. And I'm standing in front 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:51.800 of seventy thousand people and he doesn't come out. At 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.040 least at the resort, there was only about two hundred, 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:58.199 so I didn't introduce him, even though we went through 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.600 the same steps we did soundcheck. Yet this am there 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.640 in a whole bit. So when we get into the 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:05.720 part of the song where Ralph tells the whole crowd 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.360 to jump, jump, Jump, I'm standing on the stage and 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.719 I'm jumping up and down, and then I hear this 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:16.320 crowd like, give this loud roar, and I look to 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:19.439 my left and there's Prince jumping with me, jumping up 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.120 and holding his hand up in the air, and the 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.720 crowd freaks out. And then we go into the next 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.120 bit and he takes over and starts sewing and it's 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.640 just killing. It's so good. So he did a little 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:32.920 bit of like the sort of Stevie ray Vaughn kind 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.480 of thing, but then he went into like just chucking 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.040 with me, and that's when he got nuts. And you 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:40.560 can go online and see it. It's on YouTube. It's 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:45.120 so great. More of Bruce and Nile Rogers. After this break, 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:54.960 we're back with Bruce Headlam Now Rogers and Chic. Now. 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:57.959 I looked up and this is for the music nerds 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.960 out there. I looked up the chords too, everybody dance, 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:06.680 and it's a C minor seventh, B flat eleven, a 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.760 B flat eleven. I should let you tell the chords, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.800 you know, the chords being an idea C minus seven 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.320 B flat eleven to C eleven A flat major seven. 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.839 Now this chord you can spell it a number of ways. 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:22.080 I like to think of it as a minor seven 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:26.880 with a raise five, or a minor a minor seven 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.440 flat thirteen. But most people would probably call it a 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:34.720 D minor eleven with an A in the base to 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.480 a B flat eleven. And the reason for that is 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:46.880 because I wanted to have this chromatic movement. So, okay, 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.720 you're a serious jazz guy. Nobody else would do it 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.360 that way? Do you do? You do all your songs 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.680 that way? Is it that kind of chording? I like 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.240 to think so, I mean, look at let's dance. How 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.520 cool that is? I mean, that's that I guess that's 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:04.240 somewhat of a trademark of mine, putting different types of 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:09.840 jazzy chords and cool voicings in pop songs. You know, 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.360 look at Diana Ross and I'm Coming Out and all 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.439 that stuff. And you also, was everybody dance the first 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:21.199 time you used a break down? No, breakdowns were actually 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:26.400 quite common in our live shows. It was just the 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.400 first time I did it when I was recording and 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.480 I was the boss. Every other time that I recorded, 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.480 I was not the boss, so I didn't have any 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.960 control over what it. Yeah, and was that from jazz? 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.839 Like breaking it down like that? It's an R and 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.720 B thing. It's an R and B disco thing. It's 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:45.920 a common R and B move. You would hear a 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:48.120 lot of R and B bands breakdown and go now, 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.160 I want to talk to ladies for me, or I 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.080 want to talk to you, or like earth Wind and 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:53.920 Fire when you hear them say pop, I want to 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.040 talk to you about things I see every day, you know, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.200 and they break down on the record. It's all about 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.040 So it was very common in R and ME to 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.560 do that. I want to talk a bit about good times. 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:09.199 You said in an interview once that all your songs 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.800 are nonfiction, absolutely, and they're often about things that you 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.760 want to see happen. Can you tell me what good Times? Yes? 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:22.840 So when we wrote Good Times in America at the time, 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:27.280 we were in the midst of the greatest financial recession 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.880 since the Great Depression. We had gas rationing, you know, 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.120 I mean if you lived in New York State, I remember, 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.840 if you're a license plate ended with an even number, 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:38.720 you can get gas on a certain day or an 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:44.600 odd number of a different day. So times were sort 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.240 of hard, and we thought, well, what other period in 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:52.360 American history seemed to feel like that? And we went, Wow, 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.440 you know, the Roaring twenties and the you know, the 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.360 Great Depression. In that sort of jazz, you're a whole 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.920 thing about dance marathons. And that's why we came up 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:06.280 with the whole yas Yauza thing on dancing stance. The 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.440 whole concept of the first few Chic albums was all 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:15.120 jazz era stuff and on risque. When we finally did 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.560 Good Times, we were confident enough in our band to 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:23.000 now sort of expose our formula to the world. So 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:28.360 the lyrics to Good Times were sort of ripped off 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:32.720 from Al Jolson and the song that they used to 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:37.760 sing after Prohibition when they were happy, Dang I hand 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:44.080 run and then drink time and evening about quarter to nine, 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.920 So we go right, it was cool, We start right 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:52.000 with it, so we are obvious. Good Times came out 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:56.040 at a particular political time because the Disco Sucks movement 0:15:56.080 --> 0:16:00.840 had come that had the riot in Chicago summer of 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.600 seventy nine. What did that feel like for you? Well, 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:05.720 it was really interesting because it was sort of like 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:11.000 a bi phasic kind of feeling because when we found 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:13.880 out about it, we were on an airplane flying from 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:19.000 Europe back to America, so it happened while we were away, 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.480 and we didn't think of ourselves as a disco band. 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.840 I mean, listen to every album. We have ballads, everyone 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:30.040 has an instrumental there's always a jazzy, you know type 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.520 of thing. The Diana Ross album is incredibly as far 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.920 as a composer's I got to say that that's really unique. 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.840 There's nothing I've ever written that sounds like that before 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:44.080 or after that was purely written for Diana Ross. I mean, 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.760 you listen to a song like I'm coming Out, and 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.240 I mean I have a fanfare in there, I mean, 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:53.440 when we first saw Diana Ross Bernard walked with me 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.040 and said, wow, look at that. She's like our black queen. 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.000 So I kept that in my head and when I 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.680 wrote that fan fare, I said to Diana, I said, look, 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.320 you know when the President of the United States walks 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.000 in the room, they go Hail to the Chief. I said, 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:12.960 this is your fanfare. I told her. I says, you 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.560 will never start a show without this song ever the 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.040 rest of your life. And now we see thirty five 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.520 years later, I was right, you never start the show 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:23.800 without playing I'm coming out at the beginning of her show. 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:28.800 Although one of your most famous songs, the Freak, is 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.560 actually about being rejected at a disco. Correct, Can you 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.880 tell that story? Qua? Yeah. So our first song, Everybody 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:40.280 Dance was the real sort of super cool club song 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.639 on our first album. Even though Dance Dance Dance was 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.040 popular and was big on the radio and it was 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:52.359 platinum twelve inch, I mean, it was huge. It was 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:57.760 Everybody Dance that really secured our vibe as a cool, hip, 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:02.240 underground dance group. And so Grace Jones had heard Everybody 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.920 Dance and she was a fan of that song, and 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:09.280 she was thinking about having these two young new producers 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:13.200 do what would then be her next album. She said 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:17.280 that the only way we could truly understand her artistically 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:19.720 is to see her live show. Then we really would 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.919 understand who Grace Jones is. But the problem was we 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.440 had only spoken to her that one time. We never 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.440 met her. We were on the phone. So Grace has 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.440 a very unique accent. She's the only one on earth 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.359 that sounds like that, and she says, so darling, but 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:36.480 you go to the back door and you tell them 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:38.840 your personal friends of miss Grace Jones and they would 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.960 let you in. So we did that with that accent, 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.959 and the guy slams the door in our faces. And 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.560 while he's slamming the door, he's going, oh, fuck off, 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:50.840 And we said no, no, no, no no. We keep kicking 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:52.960 the door again because now we had to be above 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.080 the level of the music. Now. Once we finally got 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.040 his attention, so we wanted to get him before he 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.680 walked away from the door. So we kicked really hard 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.200 and he said, you know, he reiterated what he had said, 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:06.840 I told you to f off, So we knew we 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:08.640 weren't going to get in. It was New Year's Eve, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:14.760 seventy seven going into seventy eight, and we were walking 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.600 back to my apartment, which is on fifty second Street 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.040 between eighth and ninth, and to get there we had 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:22.800 to pass a liquor store, so we bought two bottles 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:24.879 of Don Perignon, which in those days we called it 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.560 rock and roll mouthwash. We bought two bottles of DP, 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.120 and we went to my house and we downed them 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:35.159 so fast we got really lightheaded, and we turned his 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:42.040 rejection phrase f off into freak out. We went well. 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.040 When we first wrote it, we wrote a whole song 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:49.000 using the original lyric and thinking of every situation where 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.520 the appropriate response would be fuck off. So we're playing 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:55.600 no, no no, no, they if a cab driver and cut 0:19:55.640 --> 0:20:00.760 you off, don't, don't fuck off. I remember saying if 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:04.080 your mother asked you to do homework, fuck up, and 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.760 we were into laughing, feeling great, and then finding my partner, 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:12.880 Bernard's a man you notice is happening and I'm like, well, Bernardo, 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.600 you know this is two years before hip hop. We 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:19.000 can't get you know, record on the radio that's got 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:24.359 the F bomb in it, But somehow we wound up 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.000 would freak out. We'll have more of Bruce and now Rogers. 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:36.280 After this break, we're back with Bruce Hadlam, now Rogers 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:41.200 and Chic. You mentioned that you and Bernard didn't see 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.320 yourselves as stars as front man, and you saw Chic 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:48.680 very much as this organization. Yes, you've built this incredible career. 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:52.240 You've had hits literally in every decade since you started 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:57.960 by being this great collaborator. Why does collaboration seem to 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:00.840 mean more to you than being the front man? Because 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:05.520 as a composer, I write for ensembles, That's what I hear. 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.480 The only time I could ever think of writing a 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:17.000 composition that was actually recorded and performed for either a soloist, 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:21.040 a solo instrument, or maybe a duet. It's just for 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.160 films I can come into America. I write this queue 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.080 where they go the Royal Penis is glean your Highness, 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:30.840 and it's just like a pan flute, you know, pan 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.840 flute and harp. And then in the movie called Soup 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.399 for One, I do this thing called Tavern on the 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:43.399 Green and it's just me playing classical guitar along with 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:49.000 a Yamaha CSAD synthesizer with my keyboard player. But those 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.719 are the only duets that I've ever really recorded. Everything 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:54.240 else is for a bunch of a room full of people. 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.680 But in your autobiography, which I'm going to recommend everybody 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:02.199 because it's it really is the incredible life story, and 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.200 it is it's sort of James Baldwin and Charles Dickens 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:08.840 wrote a book together. It may start to approach your 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:12.359 You know, you had a very you come back to 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:17.680 this a very lonely life. You're around your parents or 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:20.080 your stepfather and your mother, whom you love dearly, but 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:22.840 who would send you on bus rides across the country 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:27.040 by yourself, who often left you alone. And they were heroinautics. 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:28.719 I mean they were that they were in pursuit of 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:33.120 their number one love. And when when someone first tuned 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:35.359 your guitar and you played I think a day a 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:37.560 day in the life, right, and you thought I'm going 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:39.440 to be Were you thinking I want to be a star? 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:43.879 I want to be up on Sto no no. Prior 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:47.600 to that, I had only really played classical music, so 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:49.520 I just wanted to be part of a symphony orchestra. 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:51.760 I used to play the clarinet, which is funny now 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:53.800 because if I tried to play the clarinet, it would 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:57.680 probably sound hysterical, but my dream when I was a 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.359 kid was to be a part of Maybe that's what 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:01.879 it's all about it because I've always wanted to be 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:04.359 part of an orchestra, to be part of an organization, 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:08.879 and because in a big symphony orchestra, basically you could hide, 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:11.399 but you know every now and you might get a 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:15.240 great solo, you know. So that was sort of my 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:18.960 dream growing up. I wanted to emulate my biological father, 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:22.800 who was always just a percussionist with bands, who was 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:24.960 never like the guy out front, like Tito punt there 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:29.800 or something. But you like that sense of anonymity, yeah, 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:34.480 because it was the way that I never felt attractive 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:38.480 or anything like that. And when you looked at stars, 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.399 stars were always like, you know, they walk into the room, 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:43.600 you know, you go. I remember I used to walk 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:46.480 into a club with Madonna. Now I'm born in New York, 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:50.080 knew every club owner in town, and I'd walk into 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:53.159 a club with Madonna and she was relatively unknown and 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:55.800 people go, hey, who's that girl with? Now who's that girl? 0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:58.640 You hear a din like, who's that girl? Who's that girl? Now? 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:02.879 Who's that girl? And she was unknown, but that's because 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:05.280 she was a star. She felt like a star from 0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:07.359 the moment you met her. She You know, they just 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:10.439 have that thing, Bowie, it's a star. He walks in 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:14.480 the room and like wow, they just you know, you 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:17.240 could feel it, so I knew. I never It's funny. 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:19.680 I always laugh. I say, you know, if I walk 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:22.320 into a room with Lady Gaga, people go, oh my God, 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:24.680 it is Lady God. Then he goes, wow God. Then 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:29.560 he goes, hey, Nile, you want to be the hey 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:32.679 Nile guy. I like, so like I've done, you know, 0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:36.440 maybe almost like I mean I heard the other day 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:39.600 they said like fifteen thousand, eight hundred and fifty eight 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:43.399