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Speaker 1: Hey, it's the Hunting Collective and I've been a Brian.

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Speaker 1: Another week coming at you, another great episode. We've got

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Speaker 1: a little round table discussion on private land and public

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Speaker 1: land and the culture significance of those two things. And

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Speaker 1: there's a little bit of a debate going on that

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Speaker 1: we address with Steve Rinella, Mark Kenyan, Sam Longer, and myself, uh,

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Speaker 1: talking about all lands and that they matter. And then

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Speaker 1: we're gonna travel on into Berkeley, California, So you see

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Speaker 1: Berkeley and talk to Professor Luke McCulley about his work

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Speaker 1: as a range land ecologist and working. Uh they did

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Speaker 1: a study on private lands and how we use them,

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Speaker 1: how we lease them, how we own them, and why

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Speaker 1: they're important. So hopefully you stick around for all of that.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to that, it's summertime, man, and uh,

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Speaker 1: that's the time you should be thinking about Yetti Yetie coolers,

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Speaker 1: to be exactly, and it makes a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: If you go to yeti dot com you'll find that

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Speaker 1: they make lots and lots of things. And nobody has

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Speaker 1: really given me the products to talk about in these

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Speaker 1: little bits. But I'm gonna tell you right now that

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Speaker 1: the hopper flip eighteen is my favorite thing this summer,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of reasons. One, I can put

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Speaker 1: a lot of beer in it. It's also durable. I

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Speaker 1: can we can put it in the drift boat, we

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Speaker 1: can put it in the back of the truck. Well,

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Speaker 1: I can load it up and sling it over my shoulder,

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Speaker 1: carried to the river's edge, and my little boys throwing

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Speaker 1: his snoopy line in the water and I'm there drinking

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Speaker 1: beer while he's doing it. It's just the best portable

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Speaker 1: cooler on the market in my opinion. It also comes

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Speaker 1: in hopper flip twelve and it's just the best thing

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Speaker 1: for summer weekends drinking beer, hanging out. I recently got

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Speaker 1: sent the charcoal version, which I think is pretty hot.

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Speaker 1: But there's also the fog gray, Tahoe blue original Yetie

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Speaker 1: hopper that's been around forever. So go to Yettie dot

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Speaker 1: com check out the hopper, Filip eighteen and all their

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Speaker 1: other products. Thank those folks for being a partner of

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Speaker 1: the show and making cool products for the summertime, which

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Speaker 1: is right now. So out further Ado, we're gonna get started.

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Speaker 1: Let's go. I guess I grew up on an older

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Speaker 1: road appared through the meadows. I always did what I

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Speaker 1: told until I found out that my brand new closed

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Speaker 1: a game second hand from the rich kids next door.

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Speaker 1: And I grew up fast. I guess I grew what

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Speaker 1: I mean. They have a thousand things inside of my

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Speaker 1: head I wish I ain't seen, and now I just

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Speaker 1: wanted through a real bad dream or being and like

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Speaker 1: I'm coming a part of the seams. But thank you

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Speaker 1: Jack Daniel. No, hey, everybody, welcome to the Hunting Collective.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ben O'Brien, and this is you're gonna be listening

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Speaker 1: to this one seven nine nineteen. We get a bit

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Speaker 1: of a round table of sorts here today in the

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Speaker 1: meat eater offices. We'll start to my right with the man.

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Speaker 1: Uh they called Stephen Renel Steve, Yeah, right here, and

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Speaker 1: then it's Mark Mark Mark Mark, My first time in

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Speaker 1: the news studio to this. This is very nice. Do

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Speaker 1: you feel that Steve takes over the questions? I'll talk

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Speaker 1: later about it. Uh. Do you feel that the that

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Speaker 1: the placement of the some of the artworking here is

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Speaker 1: too close together? It's very I do. For example, right there,

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Speaker 1: I see that I'd like a gap. I also noticed

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Speaker 1: that there's zero white tail content. Of course you do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but there's like, I mean, there's zero zebra content, but

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Speaker 1: still there's not hunters. Aren't zebra hunters? Just giving our

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Speaker 1: context of our conversation, I think that, Yeah, but there's

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Speaker 1: no pictures of anyone doing anything. Yeah, there's turkeys, there's

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Speaker 1: plane crabs, there's planes, pro planes, mountain. I like that

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Speaker 1: there's blue crabs because I'm one horn going on in here,

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Speaker 1: and there's just a little bit of a moose antler

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Speaker 1: in that one. There's buffalo behind us. Oh yeah, well

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Speaker 1: it's it's very stylized. It doesn't that. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: a big controversy here about Steve. You were the one

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Speaker 1: that kind of envisioned the collage. I'm not really open

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Speaker 1: to any feedback about it. I mean, I think the spacing,

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Speaker 1: the spacing, I'm open to feedback about it. Do you

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Speaker 1: do you agree though, that some of these spots could

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Speaker 1: be added a little bit? Yeah? No, I think that

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Speaker 1: there needs to be a bigger gap. I was just

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Speaker 1: curious because you said he hadn't been in here. I

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Speaker 1: thought if you walked in, you were like, hey man,

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Speaker 1: things a little tight, Yes, between the pictures. It's still

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Speaker 1: got some filling into. You're not open to the feedback

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Speaker 1: about the elements of the clause. No, I don't care. No.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like I took the bull by the horns, man,

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Speaker 1: you did it well. I mean it's not done yet.

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Speaker 1: There's plenty of space to go. No, I don't really,

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Speaker 1: I don't really care what anybody thinks about it. If

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Speaker 1: someone else had had a great vision and executed, that

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Speaker 1: would have been different. But it just sat here and

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Speaker 1: then I executed. Moving on. I like it. Sam Lunger's

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Speaker 1: here too, howdy and uh Phil, Hey, morning afternoon. I

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Speaker 1: think it's morning still. Why is Phill here? Phil? I've

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Speaker 1: been asking that a question every week. This is Phil's

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Speaker 1: third straight appearance on The Hunting Collective that I got

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Speaker 1: my first email about Phil today. The gentleman rode In

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Speaker 1: said he really likes Phil. Keep mind, it feels great.

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Speaker 1: This is a data informed Yeah, we're listening this. This

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Speaker 1: is it's a two way conversation. Yeah. On the show, Um,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about we have lots of perspectives here,

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Speaker 1: which is always good. We're gonna talk about private land

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Speaker 1: and public land on the show. We got I went

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Speaker 1: all the way to Berkeley, California to talk to this

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Speaker 1: dude named Luke McCauley who's a cooperative extension specialist at

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Speaker 1: you see Berkeley, and he put out a study on

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Speaker 1: public or private land uses in this country with a

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Speaker 1: lot of really cool statistics. So we're gonna get into

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Speaker 1: that later on. There's a lot He's got piles and

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Speaker 1: piles of stats on how many acreage, how much acreage

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Speaker 1: in this country is least for hunting, how much is

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Speaker 1: privately owned for the purpose of hunting, for what that

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Speaker 1: means in a lot of ways. That is good stuff,

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Speaker 1: and we'll we'll preface that with a few things. But

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Speaker 1: Luke McCauley coming up soon. But before we get to that,

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Speaker 1: there's been a thing in the hunting world recently where

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Speaker 1: we celebrate public lands. We all agree that public lands

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Speaker 1: are fantastic. Steve. Yeah, And you look like a real

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Speaker 1: tool with a private land owner T shirt, though, I

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Speaker 1: though I have seen guys who wear one in jazz.

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Speaker 1: But it looks like you're bragging. Looks like you're bragging.

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Speaker 1: You are bragging, like there's doesn't just look like a

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Speaker 1: T shirt company just released a shirt last week on

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Speaker 1: this whole issue. And the the front looks just like

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Speaker 1: the public land shirt public landowner shirt from b h A,

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Speaker 1: but it says private land leacy. That's funny. Yah uh

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Speaker 1: yeah that you're not bragging in no, but it's it's

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Speaker 1: definitely speaking to the phenomena of the public land excitement

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Speaker 1: and that shirt and stuff, and this is a ray

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Speaker 1: to that because you get to hunt public land. You

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Speaker 1: just go there and hunt. Yeah, that's exciting. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: is it exciting to go somewhere and pay a guy

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Speaker 1: to let hunt? I would rather not That guy sounds

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Speaker 1: excited about it. Well, I've I've I've hunted. I've hunted

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Speaker 1: least property and had a great time. Hut my friends

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Speaker 1: private ranches and farms and have a great time. I

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Speaker 1: have a great time. I don't feel all like proud

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Speaker 1: and excited about it. You don't feel like you you

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Speaker 1: don't feel like you'd wear that T shirt only land

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Speaker 1: owner t shirt. Yeah, but I mean between my place

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Speaker 1: in Alaska, I'm I owned two point six so does

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Speaker 1: that count as a private land? My dad owns two

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Speaker 1: point five and I was see, I always enjoyed hunting that,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't a lot of opportunity. Yes, you got

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Speaker 1: point one acres. Sam's father. I killed my first deer

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Speaker 1: on my family's three point two acre property. You really

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Speaker 1: did it run over the fence? It did? So the

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Speaker 1: statute of limitations on that though, huh. And my dad

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Speaker 1: was really stressed out because I had a flashlight and

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Speaker 1: we're walking down to try to find it that night.

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Speaker 1: He's got put that flash down. Put that flashlight down, neighbor.

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Speaker 1: It's not worried. I got to go night vision. So

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Speaker 1: in this study, there's a bunch of good numbers, but

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Speaker 1: the analysis of thirteen nationwide studies over about I think

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Speaker 1: about eleven years. There's a lot of regional things, and

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Speaker 1: we're all kind of live in and are from different regions,

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Speaker 1: and I have our our perspective are colored by these regions,

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Speaker 1: but tend to eleven percent the land area of the South, Midwest,

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Speaker 1: and Northeast are owned primarily for hunting, and that's primarily

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Speaker 1: then private land ownership and leasing, while less than one

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Speaker 1: percent of the land of the West is owned for hunting.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of a lot of differences. Mark,

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Speaker 1: I want you to there's there's been a are you

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Speaker 1: gonna tell people what um, like what it was that? God,

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Speaker 1: it's even talking about this? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm sorry, Mark,

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Speaker 1: can you tell what got us talking about this? Oh?

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Speaker 1: You're doing it right now. Yeah, that's what I was doing.

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Speaker 1: Interrupt You interrupted me while I was doing it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you did like you had like a like a little approach. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're doing an approach coloring it. I was coloring the

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Speaker 1: the topic. So you're talking about the Instagram post. Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: So there was an Instagram post from a guy in

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Speaker 1: the hunting world, UM speaking to how much excitement and

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Speaker 1: energy there is around the public land movement right, keep

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Speaker 1: it public. There's a lot of energy their backgount, trunters

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Speaker 1: and anglers just going full board, lots of membership, lots

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Speaker 1: of interest. Everybody wants to wear these public landowner t

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Speaker 1: shirts UM tagging their Instagram post keep a public, etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: His point in his Instagram post was that, yeah, that's important,

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Speaker 1: but let's not forget that the vast majority of the

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Speaker 1: hunting happening east of the Mississippi is happening on private land,

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Speaker 1: and the vast majority of the white tail hunt, which

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Speaker 1: is somewhere around eight percent of all the hunters in

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Speaker 1: the country, a very very important driver of conservation and

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Speaker 1: the hunting based economy and all that. That's all happening

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Speaker 1: the majority again on private land. So it was it

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Speaker 1: was a pretty wine. It was whiny read very whiny,

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Speaker 1: very well. I would personally say this, This guy's a

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Speaker 1: friend of mine and I highly respect him. I would

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Speaker 1: just say that, yeah, the way he framed it, I'd

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Speaker 1: say that he could have framed it differently too. He

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Speaker 1: had a good point, but I think that it came

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Speaker 1: off whiny. Oh yeah, well he tagged us, Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: tagged us. He's like, so that's how Like I can't

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Speaker 1: remember who showed it to me. But what was funny

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Speaker 1: about it was like someone showed it to us and

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Speaker 1: I don't remember who. Who do you know who sent

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Speaker 1: who showed it to us? And I was talking about

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Speaker 1: I've told his story a couple of times, but it

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Speaker 1: reminded me of a thing that was that was going

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Speaker 1: on when the like a summer ago, maybe two summers ago,

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Speaker 1: when the Black Lives Matter movement was really picking up,

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Speaker 1: and I remember there's this cartoon, like a editorial cartoon,

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Speaker 1: and I saw somewhere in the newspaper, and there was

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Speaker 1: two guys standing there in front of their houses, and

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Speaker 1: one of the houses is burning down, and its owners

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Speaker 1: out front spraying a hose on the house that's burning down.

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Speaker 1: But then the other the neighbor's house is not on fire,

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Speaker 1: but the guys standing out there sprang a hose on

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Speaker 1: his house that is not on fire. And the guy

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Speaker 1: who's not whose house is not on fire, is saying

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Speaker 1: to the guy whose house is on fire, Hey, all

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Speaker 1: houses matter, so I U I said. When I saw this,

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Speaker 1: I said to Ben so that I talked about how

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Speaker 1: that reminded me of that, and Ben had a very

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Speaker 1: good hashtag, which is all lands Matters matter. I think

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Speaker 1: that's a good We quickly decided that it was not

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Speaker 1: a good idea for fear to be seeming that we're

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Speaker 1: making light of something that doesn't warrant being made light of.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it's like I think that no one's questioning

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Speaker 1: right like right now. I mean, if the political cycle

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Speaker 1: goal is certain directions, I can see this happenings, like

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Speaker 1: the socialists takeover. But right now, no one's questioning the

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Speaker 1: legitimacy of private land ownership in America. But they're questioning

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Speaker 1: the legitimacy of federally managed public lands. They're like people

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Speaker 1: like actively outright saying should we do this so that

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Speaker 1: house is on fire. Yeah, that's directly where the public

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Speaker 1: land movement is coming to, by the way, it's because

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Speaker 1: it's because it is imperiled and people need needed at

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Speaker 1: that At that moment when the keep it public hashtag

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Speaker 1: started becoming big, it was very much um on on

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Speaker 1: the line and people needed to get together and be like, hey, no,

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Speaker 1: this is something we do want to preserve. This is

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Speaker 1: awesome that anyone gets to go hunt here that you

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Speaker 1: own title to that land as an American citizen. So

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Speaker 1: his reaction from that so that that Instagram post felt

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Speaker 1: like it really lacked a lot of historically. Let me

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Speaker 1: give you a little bit from the Instagram post itself. Um,

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Speaker 1: this person says, in my opinion, it's almost become a

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Speaker 1: cult like mantra for a new, much needed but potentially

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Speaker 1: misguided segment of hunters. I mean there's now more public

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Speaker 1: land teachers out there than a van Halen tour and

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Speaker 1: being a killer that I would have gone like, not

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Speaker 1: van Halen. Yeah, that's a little context, man, It's a

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Speaker 1: little bit if you wanted to go that era, you

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Speaker 1: could have gone GNR. Yeah. But like yeah, as as

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Speaker 1: you know what we're telling about, like Diamond Dave are Sammy, listen,

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Speaker 1: look that I think the main thing here is like

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Speaker 1: he's trying to color or there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: and I feel it it's legit, Mark, you tell me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. But I think there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in the East, a lot of people in the

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Speaker 1: white tail world, a lot of people in the South

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Speaker 1: that are feeling a little bit left out of the party.

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Speaker 1: That's that's what this is driving from A little bit.

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Speaker 1: I don't get it, like left out of the party. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're invited to the party, man to show up. Like

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Speaker 1: if I smoke cigarettes and then people like then there's

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Speaker 1: like cigar aficionado. I'm like, oh those guys that like,

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Speaker 1: don't forget a lot of us like cigarettes. Who cares?

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Speaker 1: Let me be Let me just if a guy or

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Speaker 1: or a gal gets into hunting by listening to like

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Speaker 1: someone who celebrates public land all the time, they get

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Speaker 1: into hunting and their b h A and their TRCP

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Speaker 1: and that this is the thing that they are introduced

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Speaker 1: to hunting through that lens. This guy is saying, Hey, also,

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Speaker 1: new guy, this is what I have to offer. I'm

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Speaker 1: a white tail guy. If you have a lot, a

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Speaker 1: lot of money, Is it not excuse me? Is it

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Speaker 1: not well known that private land there's some pretty good

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Speaker 1: hunting on private land, and is it not? Is it

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Speaker 1: not well known that there is a thing called private

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Speaker 1: land and you can buy it if you have the money,

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Speaker 1: and it's nice if you can. And do you have

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Speaker 1: to have that caveat in every discussion of public land,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like that's what they're asking for. But

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Speaker 1: that exists all the time. You hear any rhetoric coming

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Speaker 1: out of b H A and TRC P, like you

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Speaker 1: listen very long, they're all like Lantani says this all

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Speaker 1: the time. He's like, hell, yeah, I'd like to have

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Speaker 1: my own private ranch. Everybody would like that. Everybody hunt.

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Speaker 1: Every hunter aspires to that, but many of us can't

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Speaker 1: afford it because the prices have been going through the roof,

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Speaker 1: and land has always been expensive. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: only things that doesn't really depreciate. So I hunt private

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Speaker 1: lands much of the public land. Everybody loves it. It's

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Speaker 1: all about both. I'd like to keep this this going.

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Speaker 1: This guy is saying that that the over uh emphasis

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Speaker 1: on public land is hoping that we do not lose

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Speaker 1: focus on what really impacts conservation. So I think what

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Speaker 1: this is coming from this is like it's like when

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Speaker 1: you have it's it's a cultural thing, and it's when

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Speaker 1: a band gets really cool. There's sometimes a reaction to

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Speaker 1: that band getting so cool and now you don't want

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Speaker 1: to like it anymore. As I feel about Van Halen. Man,

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Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of people, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are getting like into Van Halen and I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of like, dude, man, it was cool when like you know,

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Speaker 1: like a year ago, right, It's like it's like the

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Speaker 1: bandwagon thing, like everyone like the Golden State Warriors got

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Speaker 1: really great at basketball, and then everybody bring it back in,

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Speaker 1: bring it back in. Mark is there is there a

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Speaker 1: Warrior clan and this state, this sporting event you speak of,

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Speaker 1: the team doesn't matter. I think I don't feel no

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Speaker 1: no going on with the analogy, but I do think

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Speaker 1: that there's sometimes people will become irritated with like the

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Speaker 1: social energy around a thing because like everyone's seen SEMs

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Speaker 1: to want to be a Golden State Warrior fan, in

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Speaker 1: this case the social media. If you were to look

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Speaker 1: at how much like excitement and energy and in in

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Speaker 1: social plays there around public land stuff right now, it

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Speaker 1: probably seems disproportionate to the amount of people that actually

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Speaker 1: hunt public land or how much money gets spent on

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Speaker 1: el consin Mulier hunts versus white to hunts out east.

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Speaker 1: So there's some small loud not even loud, but there's

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Speaker 1: some small minority of people that are just kind of like,

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Speaker 1: this is annoying. There's my argument, takes your lease money

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Speaker 1: and and buy gas and drive west and hunt public

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Speaker 1: lands every year. And I'm not saying and I'm not

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Speaker 1: but what why why is it annoying? Like I don't

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Speaker 1: understand me? Well, so like you've got to like some

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Speaker 1: people now find it like you're trying to be cool

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Speaker 1: by talking about how much you on public land, or

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Speaker 1: like public land hunters are somehow like, okay, let me

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Speaker 1: take a step back. I do think that there is

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a feeling like the Midwestern East

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Speaker 1: Coast typical white tail hunter that public land Western guys

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Speaker 1: our latest a little bit like we're better because we

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Speaker 1: hike in fourteen miles and we hunt public land and

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Speaker 1: we wear this shirt and everyone you know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a really cool thing to be a part of right now.

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Speaker 1: So are there are people that uh wakeboard, Are they

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Speaker 1: annoyed about how surfers like surfing? It could be, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. And and the thing is the public land

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Speaker 1: guys out west who here this kind of stuff think

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Speaker 1: they're elitist because they have kind of resources or connections

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Speaker 1: to be able to hunt private land. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people would like to be able to do that, but

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Speaker 1: they're they're finding a way to celebrate what was what

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Speaker 1: used to be looked down upon as really second class.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know. And no means am I defending

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Speaker 1: this viewpoint. I'm just trying to explain what I think.

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Speaker 1: There is a little bit of a feeling like why

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Speaker 1: would someone make this new T shirt that says private

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Speaker 1: land leaser on it, except for it's in spite of

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Speaker 1: all these people think they're so cool wearing public land

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Speaker 1: owner shirts. Well, guess what, you can be cool. No,

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Speaker 1: that's not why. It's like like the guy that came

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Speaker 1: to one of our live events with a private landowner

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Speaker 1: T shirt, he just thought it was funny, right, He's like, nah, Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's that kind of thing. But the thing is, well,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, I'm just gonna say it's it's it's funny.

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Speaker 1: But then it's also kind of making like a counterculture statement,

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Speaker 1: like flipping the bird to everyone who thinks this is

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Speaker 1: so cool. Here's what I'm gonna say. I have I

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Speaker 1: struggle greatly with the elitist thing that makes absolutely absolutely

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Speaker 1: no sense at all, Like you're talking about the most

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Speaker 1: it's absurd. It's absurd. It's the most democratic thing that

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Speaker 1: there ever was. And the person that says it's elitist

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Speaker 1: could get in their car and drive and go do

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00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 1: it tomorrow. Go on opening day, on opening day, go

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Speaker 1: to Michigan. You know it well, you know all the spots.

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Speaker 1: Go to Michigan and do a sort of economic portrait

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Speaker 1: of the people who are hunting private land and the

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Speaker 1: people who are running public land and find out what

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Speaker 1: their annual salaries are and education levels. Okay, and then

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Speaker 1: go tell me how elite is the guys are who

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Speaker 1: are down at the state game. Give me a break

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Speaker 1: and then and then go do that in Montana too,

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Speaker 1: and it's gonna be a similar breakdown. Come on, I think.

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Speaker 1: And again, I'm not saying this, I'm saying that I

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Speaker 1: picked up vibes some people. I don't feel this way.

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Speaker 1: But what I do think is that people public land

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Speaker 1: hung is more difficult. Like there's a some cache that

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Speaker 1: public land hunters are getting now right, So it's like

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Speaker 1: a cool thing. It's it's a badge. It's a badge

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Speaker 1: of honor to put on you, to say I killed

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Speaker 1: this buck in public. It's it's I feel that it's. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And there are a thousand variables. There are a thousand variables,

378
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Speaker 1: but uh, I would yes, I count it if I

379
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Speaker 1: look at all the things, all the components, and and

380
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Speaker 1: something like that happens. Like someone gets like a like,

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Speaker 1: I like big meal of your bucks a lot. If

382
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Speaker 1: someone gets a big meal to your buck and it's

383
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Speaker 1: on an eight acre ranch, I don't have a how

384
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Speaker 1: did that dude pull that off? If a guy gets, uh,

385
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 1: you know, a big meal of your buck on over

386
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Speaker 1: the counter tag and he's hunting BLM land down in

387
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 1: Colorado and he does it again next year, I'm like,

388
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 1: what does that guy have that I don't have? Guys

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Speaker 1: a good hunter and that's why that's why when you

390
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 1: describe a thing you killed, you you modify it with where, yeah,

391
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Speaker 1: this is my public land buck. You know, you don't

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Speaker 1: say this my private land buck, because it just what

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Speaker 1: Steve is saying. If they had an eye on the

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00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 1: back of its head, I'd talk about that too. But

395
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Speaker 1: so I'm just saying I think that the people that

396
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 1: do hunt thousand acre leases or that have their own

397
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: private land, there's like some kind of maybe it's insecurity,

398
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 1: maybe it's I don't know what it is, but there's

399
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 1: some pushback there. Yeah, and you're just kind of hearing

400
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,159
Speaker 1: it rumbling around a little bit. And the shirt in

401
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 1: this post, I think is just a sign of that

402
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 1: in some way. I get it. But we used to

403
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 1: hang out on national forest land when we were kids.

404
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 1: We grew up right at the southern terminus of what's

405
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 1: now the Hiawatha Manistee National Forest change names anyhow, signs

406
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: just say mansty Still. But that's where we grew up,

407
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 1: and we did a lot of hunting on it, and

408
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 1: we did a lot of hunting on Harold zeldn Russ

409
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: and Alan's are lots farms. I was are you aware

410
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,719
Speaker 1: of how and who Alan's air Lot and Harold Zelnus

411
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 1: came to have their farm, and I was very aware

412
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: of how they managed that farm and how it was

413
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 1: financed and who owned it and all that kind of stuff.

414
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Speaker 1: The National Forest people treated it like ship. It's where

415
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: you went to shoot signs. It's where you went to

416
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 1: take and run over signs. It's where you went to

417
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 1: go bahan. It's where you went to do Kegger's and

418
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,239
Speaker 1: not clean up and burned tires, and you treated it

419
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 1: as though it was just this thing that everyone took

420
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: for granted, and no one knows where it came from,

421
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 1: who the men and women who work to maintain it,

422
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,919
Speaker 1: how it came to be the fact that there's been

423
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: an increasing awareness of the of the history, mechanics and

424
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 1: funding of these places, and and gaining and establishing and

425
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: uh promoting a deepened heightened respect for these places and

426
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 1: taking some pride in these places. I don't think that

427
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: that's a comment on the work that Alan Zerlot and

428
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: Harold zeldn Russ did on their farm. It's not the

429
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: same thing. Those places had a guardian. It's just different. Well,

430
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 1: there's and and a win for public lands is a

431
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: win for this person who made this post and everyone else.

432
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's to say that it's only a

433
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: certain type of people that can use this, or it's

434
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: only accessible. It's the term access and many of almost

435
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: all of these cases means anyone in the east, the South,

436
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 1: if they can get to it, they can access it.

437
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: So win for public lands is a win for this

438
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: person who's hating on public lands. And I think, yeah,

439
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: And I've had conversations with a couple of people that

440
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: have articulated this, and I agree with you, Stephen and

441
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 1: in your count bad about it. That's not publican but yeah,

442
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not um But yeah, I agree, it's

443
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 1: it's all these lands matter. But there are these different,

444
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 1: weird little social cliques and norms, and I think that

445
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 1: this is more like that ephemeral type of issue, And

446
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: there's something be said about how that impacts why someone

447
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: would spend some time and energy posting a post like that. Yeah,

448
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's there's all kinds of missions,

449
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of organizations, there's all kind of in

450
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: Every person that gets connected to their mission wants people

451
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: to come and be a part of that. If they

452
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: see some energy stealing thing out there, they want to

453
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: go and and either challenge. There's one way to approach,

454
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: which is like this person didn't other people have his

455
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: challenge it and say it's not his valid as you

456
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: think it might be. Or there's other things to embrace

457
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,479
Speaker 1: it and say and try to be part of it

458
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: and understand it, and that's probably the better way to go.

459
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: I would think, you know, oh, I was gonna say,

460
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: following up on what you were saying, Steve, that people

461
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 1: treated like ship And that was my exact same experience

462
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: growing up hunting a lot of public land. That it

463
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: was just like, oh, this is the land that nobody wanted.

464
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: Nobody he lays claim to and you can do whatever

465
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: the hell you want. No one didn't treat it like

466
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: it was there exactly. And so I think that's why

467
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: this this public landowner movement has been so important and

468
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: so impactful because it's reinforcing. I mean, I was there

469
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: when they came up with the idea for that T shirt,

470
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: and I immediately I was like, that's that's awesome. That's it.

471
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: People are gonna love this that you know that you

472
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: do you do own this as an American citizen legally speaking,

473
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: people talk about it being federally owned or stayed owned.

474
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: But you know, if you if you go back into

475
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: kind of the legal under underpinnings, it's property of the people.

476
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: And I think that pride is very healthy and I

477
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: think it will improve help help those those lands UM

478
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: become better places to hunt in places to fish if

479
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: people give a ship and and pick up trash instead

480
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: of leaving it, or encourage others not to just go

481
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: planking and blowing up washing machines and and pro pain

482
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: tanks out there, and and then you know, can be

483
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: a more useful part of the overall conservation UM portfolio

484
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: of an area, which includes private lands as well. But

485
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,959
Speaker 1: I think we can improve upon all sorts of wildlife

486
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: populations and opportunities for more people if if people have

487
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: that sense of pride surrounding public land. I was gonna say,

488
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: I do think though there's something to be said about

489
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: UM acknowledging the importance of work being done on private

490
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: land too, and the fact that that does have big

491
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: picture impacts on wildlife in the environment. And I think

492
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: that that if you have private land that you own

493
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: or steward like, you should be empowered and realize that

494
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: the power that you have there and the impact you

495
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 1: can have that whether it's twenty acres or two acres um.

496
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: That stuff trickles over that stuff all like, like you've

497
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: talked about the study that you spoke about with this gentleman,

498
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: some of the very highest quality wildlife habitat out there,

499
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: some of the best opportunities we have to preserve green

500
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: space and places for animals to rome does exist on

501
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 1: private lands. So of course in the country back set up,

502
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: because we spend far more on private lands conservation than

503
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: we do on public and private lands, and far more

504
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: we've spend far more on wildlife habitat improvements on private

505
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: lands as a nation than we do on public lands.

506
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: If you're the components of the farm bill, that's a piece.

507
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: So I think that I don't see that this. I

508
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: mean it's great, and I think that you know, and

509
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 1: when I have friends Matt cooked dug during, I could

510
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: name on and on the own properties the primary purpose

511
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: of that property being to produce good wildlife habitat. And

512
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: I don't feel, um, I never get a sense from

513
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: them people actively doing it. I don't get a sense

514
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: from them that they feel like they're the unsung hero.

515
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I just feel like they do they're they're

516
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: doing something and the people around them know they're doing

517
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: it and doing it great. And I'll point out funnything

518
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: about these two is these two people are also very

519
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: concerned about the well being of public lands in this country.

520
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: So they're putting their money where their mouth is on

521
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: private lands. And they're also miraculously, somehow able to be

522
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: concerned about both these things at once. And that's a thing,

523
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: is that that's that's what this is about, right like,

524
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: And the reason why I want to have this conversation,

525
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: the reason why I went and spoke to Luke McCauley,

526
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 1: is exactly that, like we know it's there. It's a

527
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: fact that hunting is a great like property owned at

528
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 1: least for hunting, provides a greater economic incentive to have

529
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: large tracts of unfragmented land that's good for wildlife, that

530
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: has good that that harbors good habitat for wildlife. We

531
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: know that that's leasing and owning property does that in

532
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: many ways, right So we can discuss that is just

533
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: the same way we can discuss some of the benefits

534
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: of having large tracts of public land. But what we

535
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: sure as ship can't do is start putting them up

536
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: against each other like they need to people one versus

537
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: the other. We can't piece of puzzle, Yeah, pieces of

538
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: a puzzle? Can I? Can I bring up two quick

539
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: points please? As I've become more familiar with UM nonprofit

540
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: conservation groups, I've been surprised to learn learned that there

541
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: is a competitive atmosphere among nonprofits. People know who people

542
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: who run nonprofits UM in the conservation space know that

543
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: most people out there don't join ten groups. They join

544
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: and donate to one or two, and they compete. Grant

545
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: funding is finite. They compete for UH what they might

546
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: view as customers. And so I feel that there's a

547
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: little bit of that at play where people that are

548
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: going over holy with their finances and time and volunteer

549
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: work with a very dedicated UH public land agenda that

550
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: other players in the conservation space would be challenged by

551
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: that because it might automatically seem to exclude their interests.

552
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: And then I'm just not like cold do that smokes

553
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: too much weed? You know, I don't smoke weed at

554
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: all when I say this, because I'm not going to

555
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: get into great details about it. But there are a

556
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: lot of very powerful political figures and business figures who

557
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: are deeply intimid aided by the public land movement, and

558
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: they find ways to go and attack people who are

559
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,239
Speaker 1: vocal about public lands. Ben and I have been like

560
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: hit and punished for being vocal about public lands because

561
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: you're upsetting a political status quo. And so I'm particularly

562
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: sensitive about this kind of thing because I often look

563
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: and I wonder, are they talking about this or they

564
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: talking about something else? Right? Right? And that's that's me

565
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: having a hit th HCS. I'll add the bong bubble

566
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: in later. Now, listen, Phil, what do you think about

567
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: all this? Then? Uh? Well, I mean for me, what

568
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: ice coming from? Just like hunting one on one, I

569
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: think a lot of people also just take a sense

570
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: of a massive sense of pride and something that they

571
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: grew up doing and at least like, for example, I

572
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: grew up in Portland and I don't give a shit

573
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: about basketball, but when the Blazers were doing well, there's

574
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: like a little part of me that was kind of like,

575
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: who go team? And I like, if you grew up.

576
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: I was like that with the Seahawks when they were

577
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: very briefly and then now I don't care anymore. Hunting

578
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: mostly private lands or like that's what you know, you're dead,

579
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: your grandpa took you too. And then all of a sudden,

580
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: public lands get more clout kind of in the hunting

581
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: the hunting community, there's a little you get kind of defensive, right,

582
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: trying to defend like something that you grew up with

583
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: with or are proud of. Um, yeah, that's a great point, man,

584
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: And I think, wait a minute, you should be proud

585
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: of my farm. Yeah well yeah, but but but but

586
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: they but they hear, they hear people like Steve and

587
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: myself and Ben's say that like you know, it bumps

588
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: up the purity score or whatever when it's when it's

589
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: a big buck taken on on public land, and they

590
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: they're like, well, hell, I put in a lot of

591
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: work to get to grow a big buck on my land.

592
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: That's still valuable. It's still just as cool. And I

593
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: would I would have to agree with them. It's still

594
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: really cool. It's still cool to kill a big buck

595
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: unless it's behind the hund be like, hey, can I

596
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: can I hunt your place? Yeah, let me come see

597
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: how cool it is. Prove it? Yeah, I prove it. Yeah,

598
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: there'sh But I hear what you're saying, man, that point

599
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: points very well. On the show Phil comes in, we

600
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: should probably just end on Phil like a Phil comment

601
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: at the end of every opening segment, just to really

602
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: get people to transition into here's the guy who's never

603
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: hunting and he just pulled out a gym. Could you

604
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: play a doctor on radio? What's that? Don't Dr Doctor

605
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: thought that? Dr Phil? Um, We're gonna we'll end on

606
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: Dr Phil his his perspective. But I have one more question,

607
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: please do What's what's up that dog collar laying there? Um?

608
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: My dog likes to shake his head because he gets

609
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: those ear infections, and I figured that'd probably sound pretty

610
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: bad on the audio if he started rattling that thing around,

611
00:32:51,920 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: So I take it off. Oh where's this going? Did

612
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: I come in? And did we take our lunch break? Seriously? Here?

613
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: All right, guys, we're all good here. We figured it out,

614
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: did yeah? Oh yeah? What what? What? What we designed? Well?

615
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: We all lands matter, That's what we decided matter. Speaking

616
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: of that, we're gonna go transport back in time a

617
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. We're gonna go to Berkeley, California. Talked

618
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: to Luke McCauley at in his office in the grand

619
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: old Campus of Berkeley. Do you see Berkeley. We're gonna

620
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: learn more about private lands, least lands and their impacts

621
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: on this country and continue this discussion over there. So enjoy.

622
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, Ben. Thanks Ben. I guess I grew up. Hey, Looke,

623
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: how's it going, man going? Well? How are you doing?

624
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm doing really good. I mean, you see Berkeley.

625
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: I feel oddly comfortable. I don't feel strange. People told

626
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: me that I would have to like watch out when

627
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: I was here, right, it seems fine to me. A

628
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: lot of nice people around, yeah, a lot of interesting people. Um,

629
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: A lot of interesting people, A lot of nice people. Yeah.

630
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: And we're sitting in your office UM at hill Guard

631
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: Hall at the College. When I came in, it's like

632
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: this giant metal door, this really beautiful architecture. It screams

633
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: history and the place has a lot of that. You're

634
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: you're saying, it does it does. This building was built

635
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: around the nineteen twenties, a series of buildings right here

636
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 1: as part of the originally the Agricultural College for University

637
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: of California, Berkeley UM. Berkeley is one of the land

638
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: grants for California, and California is a little bit different

639
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, including how their university systems

640
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: set up. Most states have a single land grant college,

641
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: which really delivers a lot of the applied research out

642
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: to farmers and ranchers and their agricultural colleges here in Berkeley.

643
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: It started here at Berkeley, and it's extended out to

644
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: University of California, Davis, where the majority of that agricultural

645
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: research occurs today. And there's also quite a bit that's

646
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: happening down at you see Riverside. But UM Berkeley maintains

647
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: some of this agricultural research that's designed to bring the

648
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,720
Speaker 1: best conservation practices, the best production practices out to farmers

649
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: and ranchers to improve outcomes for the people living out

650
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: there as well as the natural resources that we all

651
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: rely upon. Yeah, no, it's it's it's it's when you

652
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: walk into the door, there's like glass cases with soil samples. Yeah.

653
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: So Hill Guard was the is considered the father of

654
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: modern soil science, so he has streets named after him

655
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: here in Berkeley. Created some of the first textbooks describing

656
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: um soils. So that's some of the main components of

657
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: how we grow crops and how things how plants grow

658
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: and animals grow and all the things we're interested in. So, um,

659
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: he was an instrumental figure here at Berkeley, and there's

660
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: been a number of those people here. It's really it's

661
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: really quite humbling to be here among people, the Nobel

662
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: laureates who have come out of this university and to

663
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: look out and think that, you know, you might be

664
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: passing by somebody like that on the streets, whether it's

665
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: a nuclear physicist or a um or somebody's instrumental in agriculture. Yeah,

666
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful place and pactful place. Um, I'm happy

667
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: to be here. When you were explaining the cooperative extension

668
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: and some of your work, there's a big history to

669
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: that a long long time that's been happening. Um, give

670
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 1: people a little bit more color into that, just to understand. Yeah,

671
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: so all of our land grant colleges. I had mentioned

672
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: how Berkeley's part of the land grant system. They were

673
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: back in the nineteen tens and twenties. Somewhere around then

674
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: there was agricultural researcher found that he had developed some

675
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: new varieties of corn or different crops, and he found

676
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 1: that farmers weren't adopting him. He and they were reluctant

677
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: to try new things, and so he found there was

678
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: a real need to bring research that he was performing

679
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: out to the farmers and ranches so that they could

680
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: actually try him out. It was a it was a

681
00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 1: problem of adopting new technologies. So he began this effort

682
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: where he would have demonstrations on the research site to

683
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: bring farmers out to sea Um. If you've ever heard

684
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: of four h um, that's part of cooperative extension. It's

685
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: the effort to bring kids that One of the ideas

686
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: behind that was that they could give some of these

687
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,720
Speaker 1: new crop varieties to kids to plant in the little

688
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: home garden. And when the parents saw the kids crops

689
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 1: growing better than the crops in the fields, they start

690
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: thinking about adopting some of these new technologies too. So

691
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: it was a way to get new information out and

692
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: to promote adoption of new and the best practices. And

693
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: so you were telling me that you're probably one of

694
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,439
Speaker 1: the only folks around here, especially in this building, thinking

695
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: about hunting specifically. Probably I'm a little bit of a

696
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: novelty over here at Berkeley UM. Other people do work

697
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: on hunting. It's oftentimes in the context of UM. I

698
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: have some some great colleagues who work in Africa working

699
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: on bush meat hunting and very different context of where

700
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: people are hunting monkeys, hunting endangered species um for their livelihoods,

701
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 1: to survive, for protein and so and those our whole

702
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: different set of challenges that fortunately we don't. We have

703
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: a much more developed and regulated system here in the

704
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: in the United States. That's uh, that functions really well.

705
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 1: And is we're really we're really blessed to have that

706
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 1: sort of system here, that's true. And and for you know,

707
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,439
Speaker 1: somebody like you sit in a place like this to

708
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: to focus on this subject that was subject we're gonna

709
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: cover here over the next um hour. So I think

710
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: is was enlightening to me and the guys that Congressional

711
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: Sports Is Foundation. Andy Treyharn sent me an email like, Hey,

712
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: here's a guy that you should look at. Because as

713
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: much as we in the hunting space talk about and

714
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 1: advocate for public lands and do so um as we should,

715
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: there's this this there's a little bit of data here

716
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: that opens up the door to a whole big conversation

717
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: on private lands and what they mean and range land

718
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: and the real impact that they have on not only

719
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: our ecosystems, but our economy and different things like that.

720
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: So that's what brought me here because I think I

721
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: think it's an important topic. I think it we can

722
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 1: make that, make it as popular as our public land movement.

723
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: Keep it public is something everybody likes to say. I

724
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: think we need to also understand like what private lands

725
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: do and what they mean. And you're the guy, yeah,

726
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: and how private lands came about. You know, a lot

727
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: of a lot of times we don't even think, um,

728
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: what how did private lands become private? How did public

729
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 1: lands become public? And it really comes back to the

730
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: early settlers days when the country is being founded and

731
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: there's this westward expansion really and and the reason I

732
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: like to focus on private lands is that private lands

733
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: are some of the most productive lands in the United States.

734
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: I think about sixty or seventy percent if you include

735
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 1: Alaska six lands or private lands. If you exclude Alaska,

736
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 1: it's up to because Alaska has just said a huge

737
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: land mass, but um, you have this vaster the US

738
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: is private. And why is that? Was because there was

739
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: as people the Homestead Act was moving people, and people

740
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: were going out to farm land and to make it productive.

741
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: They really focused on the areas where they could grow,

742
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: grow crops and make a living. Um, that hundred and

743
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: sixty acres estimate for Homestead Act land that you could

744
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: acquire by moving westward worked pretty well until you hit

745
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: about the hundredth meridian and your rainfall started drop below

746
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: thirty inches a year, you didn't have enough to grow crops.

747
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: You hit some of the deserts to Nevada and Utahn,

748
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: it's really clear hundred sixty acres you're not gonna be

749
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: able to make living off of for a family. So

750
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 1: what ended up happening is some of these early explorers

751
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: noted that we need to rethink this Homestead Act and

752
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: in the West, because you're going to need at least

753
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: two thousand, three thousand, five thousand acres to be able

754
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: to apport a family unit out here. And so that

755
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: I don't think those those numbers did end up happening

756
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: in the Homestead Act. What ended up happening was that, UM,

757
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: these lands were sort of left unsettled because people couldn't

758
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: make living on a small parcel of land, and so

759
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: you have these these areas and mountains and deserts essentially

760
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: that were left unsettled and became part of our public

761
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: federal public lands. So they're beautiful, they're a huge and

762
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: wonderful natural resource thing to to behold and wonder and

763
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: walk through and see. But they're also some of the

764
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: least productive lands. But they don't have good flat soils,

765
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: they don't have sometimes good water resources um and as

766
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: it was, and also those same productivity issues that make

767
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: them difficult and challenging for humans to live on and

768
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: settle and to make living on. In some ways, they're

769
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: difficult for animals. They don't have the same densities of

770
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: deer that you would have on the bottom lands soil

771
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: in the south. So because of that, it's really these

772
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: public lands are really great, but they're not really representative

773
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: of all the different resources that we have in our

774
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: country and so um So that's why I think private

775
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: lands are really important part of our conversation. They're they're

776
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: the most productive lands. They host a whole range of

777
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: biodiversity that's not represented in our public lands. Um. There

778
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: are species that aren't found in public lands that are

779
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: they're only found in some of our private lands in

780
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 1: the in the eastern side of the country or even

781
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: in the in California for example. So, um, and in

782
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 1: California here where we are, the Central Valley, which is

783
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: the the bread basket of the country, is almost entirely

784
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: agricultural land now and some of those bottom land areas

785
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: where there were huge valley oaks back in the day,

786
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: some of those laws that that habit has been lost,

787
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: and so we've lost some of those those aspects to

788
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: support game species, the other species, birds and other things

789
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, and you mentioned a lot in your

790
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: work of biodiversity, um, explain kind of how you're like,

791
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: how you would measure and say, there's two things I

792
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: think that what was production? What does productive really mean?

793
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: You know? And and what is how does private land?

794
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: And then maybe publicly And it's hard to talk about

795
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: these things as monoliths. I mean, there's so there's some

796
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: very very and I've seen them very very biodiverse public lands,

797
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: and there's some very very uh, non diverse private lands.

798
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: It's just it's hard to talk about them in those ways.

799
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: But when you reference them as productive, what do you

800
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: what do you mean? What's that product for private land? Wherever?

801
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: Any land? What's what's productive in your mind? Because there Yeah,

802
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: that's a good question again, because it's like I said,

803
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: it's hard to talk about these things like that in

804
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: those ways. But product production means a lot of different

805
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 1: things to different people. Obviously, Yeah, um, I generally probably

806
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,439
Speaker 1: would think of it in terms of UM. I would

807
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: think of it probably in terms of how humans use

808
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: the land, and so often times I would think of

809
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: it in terms of soil quality, UM and the ability

810
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: to produce biomass and so. Uh that generally a thought

811
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: of as yields for crops, um grass grown for livestock,

812
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: um water for people to drink, or for animals to drink,

813
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: groundwater resources, so all those types of aspects that UM,

814
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: I think humans in particular will look at, but also animals.

815
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: You know, water is key a key resource for for

816
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: animals and for life, and so having good water resources

817
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 1: in an area is really important for productivity, and that's

818
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: why there's been efforts to put out guzzlers and water

819
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: resources in our public lands to increase that productivity. Yeah,

820
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: it's a good point, especially for sheep. Guzzlers are a

821
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 1: huge thing for desert big horn sheep and beyond. UM.

822
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: So let's get to the actual research you've done and

823
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: the paper that you guys have published UM, and I

824
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of numbers in here. I don't

825
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: want to get to I don't want to just rattle

826
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 1: off a bunch of numbers, but there are some really

827
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 1: impactful kind of bottom line statements in and what's here? UM,

828
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: So kind of take us through what this paper is called.

829
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: I'll make sure everybody has access to it. That's listening

830
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: what this paper is called, and kind of how you

831
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: came to want to write this, and how you wrote

832
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: the abstract, and yeah, it's a long ask questions. Well

833
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: it wasn't It was quite an interesting story. When I

834
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: started my dissertation, my doctoral research, I did not think

835
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: I would end up doing a big nationwide study pulling

836
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: together three big giant data sets from different national surveys.

837
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: I was actually a little bit afraid of statistics and

838
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: big data sets when I started my my doctoral work. Um,

839
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: this paper is titled the Role of Wildlife Associated Recreation

840
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: and Private land Use and Conservation. Providing the Missing Baseline. Bam, bam.

841
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 1: That's like, that's that's not gonna get to people clicking

842
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: on the old webside. We have to rewrite that headline

843
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: providing the missing Baseline Yeah, that's that's that's a little

844
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: a little bit of something sensationalize at something or public

845
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 1: land sucks. It was, you know, I found uh private land.

846
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: I would talk to people. I was interested in in

847
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: interviewing ranchers and learning how ranchers might be using hunting,

848
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: and hunting might being incentive for ranchers to maintain more

849
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: wildlife habitat. It's an old concept that Aldo Leopold came

850
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: up with and and suggested in the nineteen thirties. He said,

851
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: you know, if farmers and ranchers are going to be

852
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: able to earn something from having wildlife on their land,

853
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: it's going to incentivize them to keep some habitat for

854
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: these fonds in the in the back forty or in

855
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 1: the certain parts of their areas, or leave the edges

856
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 1: of their crops for quail or other different wildlife species. So,

857
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: as I was talking to different ranchers and experts in

858
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: this field, they said kept saying, well, private land, we

859
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 1: really don't really know that much about how much private

860
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 1: lands being used for hunting. Um. And so I began

861
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: looking and started finding I've started learning about US Department

862
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: of Agriculture had these big data sets that were available,

863
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: and they they pulled every um, every farmer and rancher

864
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: in the country every five years, every few years, there

865
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: was different variety of different surveys, and I said, well,

866
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: I should before I go and interview a bunch of

867
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: ranchers asking them how much of their land is used

868
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 1: for hunting, I should use data sort of been collected

869
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: by our government. So I started looking into the Department

870
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: of Agriculture Agricultural Resource Management survey, which they hold every year.

871
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: There's some great folks over in Economic Research Service over

872
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: at USDA who helped me out. I'll give a shout

873
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: out to Bob Dubman who helped me out getting these

874
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: data set up. And I had to go to a

875
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: cold room up and Sacramento, which was totally cut off

876
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: from the Internet because this is this economic data farmer

877
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 1: and ranchers and they have to keep it very protected.

878
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: So I made trips up to Sacramento and h and

879
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: started learning how to use are and only statistic EGAL

880
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: programs to figure out what are these numbers, how many

881
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,879
Speaker 1: farmers and ranchers are doing? Is how many acres are there? Well,

882
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: I dug into that and I found well, there's certain

883
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: limitations to that data set. And there's the another data set,

884
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: the National Survey of UH Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife Associated

885
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: Recreation or wildlife watching. UM, And I said, well, I

886
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: should take a look at that one. And it turns

887
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: out there's a question there about private land that's used

888
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 1: for hunting, both owned for hunting and least for hunting,

889
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 1: and that people used for like day use fees, sort

890
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: of like guided hunts. So I added that to my analysis.

891
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: I pulled that in and figured out all three I

892
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: pulled up, pulled pulled together three of those UH surveys

893
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: over the course of like ten years. Because there's really

894
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: the sample, the way the sampling works, you had to

895
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: I had to aggregate these things to improve the standard

896
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: deviations and statistical stuff. But all that exciting stuff, all

897
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: that exciting fun stuff that your listeners, I'm sure really excited.

898
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: It's just it, it's just me. So if he's just

899
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: fast forward to the data, I love comparing like it's funny,

900
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm jumping ahead. Um, I'm not going

901
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: to jump ahead. In fact, when you're doing all that

902
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: research and you're you're kind of jumping your lily padding

903
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: to these like the spears of relevance to kind of

904
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 1: to get are you changing your goals during that or

905
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: you kind of you have a north star like I

906
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: want to get to find out this thing. Or as

907
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 1: you see the different available data sets, to you change

908
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: or your goal? Well, I think there's a key overarching question.

909
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: And I think that's one thing I learned from some

910
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: of my mentors um in my research program, is that

911
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: you do have a key guiding question and that that

912
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: helps you helps to guide your your program um. And

913
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: for me, it was like, what is what is the

914
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 1: role of hunting and conservation? Is it actually helping with conservation,

915
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 1: especially on the private land side. Um? So as you

916
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: gather data and somebody articulated this really well, um, you

917
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 1: you allow when you're writing science, I oftentimes didn't like

918
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 1: to think of like science as a story because I

919
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: felt like sciences is all about facts and data. We

920
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: don't I don't I don't want to tell stories. I'm

921
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: here to tell facts. But actually somebody actually changed my

922
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: mind about them. They said, actually, you're telling a story,

923
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: but your data are the characters. Your surveys are the characters,

924
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: and you have to let them speak and let them

925
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: be part of your story. So that's that's where I

926
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: think how this process occurs. Right, I had one servant.

927
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: I said, they're telling me something, but it's limited and

928
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: I don't know about this other type of landscape, and

929
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: so I'm missing some nuance to the story. And this

930
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: character can only tell me so much. I need more

931
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: characters to make the story. And that's where I went

932
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: to the National Survey, and then I ended up going

933
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: to the US Force Service had a big National woodland

934
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: Owner Survey. Some of your some of your listeners might

935
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 1: even have filled out some of these surveys they have

936
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 1: passed UM. So Brett Butler Forced Service helped set me

937
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: up with some of their data. So we pulled all

938
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: these things together to understand, you know what describe the

939
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 1: broader picture for private land use and the land use

940
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 1: types that are um utilized. For this is if forest

941
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 1: is a range land, turns out the majority's forest land.

942
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 1: A lot of the South is really considered forest land,

943
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 1: and that's the dominant area for for hunting in the

944
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: in the country as well as the Upper Midwest area Wisconsin, Minnesota,

945
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: Michigan huge areas of forests that are hunted, oftentimes for

946
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: free sometimes under leases. Um. But a lot of really

947
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: interesting nuances came out of out of analyzing these and

948
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: so so just so everyone's tracking with us, we are

949
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: talking about a study here that's pulling to get a

950
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: lot of national data to determine you know, what you

951
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: said before, kind of the hypothesis is is conservation? Is

952
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 1: hunting a valuable way to produce conservation on public lands

953
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 1: or on private lands? Beyond that, like, how are people

954
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,359
Speaker 1: using these lands? Um? You and you have some really

955
00:51:56,440 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: interesting stuff about owned versus least and reading you said

956
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: the regionalities and state by states. Um, I'm not sure

957
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 1: how you crack the egg and walk through this. I'm

958
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: sure you thought about this through. What's the first when

959
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: you say, what here's the things we found? What's the

960
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: first thing you would say to people? You know, what's

961
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: the overarching abstract? Here? A big area of the United

962
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: States is used for wildlife associated recreation, and of I

963
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: think it's estimated at well. I think the paper shows

964
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: about of the whole of the contiguous US has used

965
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: for wildlife associated recreation. Of that hunting is a dominant contributor.

966
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: And that's like in your study when you started looking

967
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: at this, there's there's It's like wildlife watching is one

968
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: of them. Hunting and fishing and fishing, Yeah, hunting is

969
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: dominates the area, absolutely right. And you didn't go into

970
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: that thinking, oh, yeah, hunting will be the thing that

971
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 1: knocks it out of the park, did you. I mean, well,

972
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: in some ways I do, and some ways I had

973
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: some ideas to that because I've hunted on on lands

974
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: and you go to big ranches, you need big areas

975
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: deer crack traveling over hundreds of acres or traveling over thousands,

976
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: sometimes tens of thousands of acres, miles and miles being crossed.

977
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: So when I think of a hunting lease, I think

978
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: of multiple hundreds, if not thousands of acres. Ideally, I

979
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: think of a fishing lease. You really just need access

980
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: to the stream, You just need an acre, And I

981
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 1: think of wildlife watching. Some people can do that in

982
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 1: their backyard from the road, you can. A lot of

983
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 1: people do. And this survey did show that. Um but

984
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: so it wasn't too surprising, but it was surprising to

985
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: me to quantify for the first time the actual millions

986
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 1: and millions of acres twenty million acres of land least

987
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: for hunting in the United States. That's a huge that's

988
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: a huge land. And when I think about hunting and conservation,

989
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:45,959
Speaker 1: you know, I often times people just say, well, hunting

990
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: is conservation, and I wonder what is that? How do

991
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? How do how do

992
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: we actually say that? What does that mean? Because we

993
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,280
Speaker 1: buy hunting licenses because our money goes to the state agencies,

994
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: is that is that conservation of the state agencies necessarily

995
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: putting that back into conservation on the ground. Um? I

996
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: think in a lot of cases yes, yes, um, but

997
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily a straight line. There might be other

998
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: things with some of those funds go to that aren't

999
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: necessarily conservation. Yeah, there's a lot of there's hunter recruitment,

1000
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of mean, if you look at how

1001
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: the dollars are a mass and what they're spent on,

1002
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: it's complex. It's a complicated state by state. You know,

1003
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: we always roll out this like of state revenues come from.

1004
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: It's it's but it's varies so much state by state

1005
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: that it's hard to nail down. And you're right, I

1006
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: say this all the time. Hunting is not conservation. Conservation

1007
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: is conservation. I think it's hunting. We've done a great

1008
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: job in this country of kind of intertwining the two

1009
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: in ways that we we really can't now separate. But

1010
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: you don't have a choice to pay the excise tax.

1011
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: In the Pitman Robertson, you do not have a choice

1012
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: to buy a tag. I mean, you're either buy a

1013
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: tag or you're a poacher. Um. And so, yes, they

1014
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: are intertwined. But conservation is to me still sits parallel

1015
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: and is a byproduct of of hunting, not not hunting

1016
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 1: in and of itself. Absolutely, And I was when I

1017
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: think about this topic, especially in this paper, I thought

1018
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: there's really two ways in which one which one can

1019
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: think of conservation. One is what I still see as

1020
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 1: one of the biggest things UM causing habitat causing losses

1021
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: of wildlife is habitat loss. It's still one of the

1022
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 1: main drivers. We talk a lot about climate change, and

1023
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: climate change does change. Habitat loss can contrive that. But

1024
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,280
Speaker 1: really we're talking about paved, paved roads, We're talking about

1025
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: housing developments that are taking up thousands of acres now

1026
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: of more additional previously habitat, or we're talking about agriculture

1027
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: that's intensive agriculture that's moved into previously uncultivated areas. That

1028
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: is a known loss, and that is still the main

1029
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 1: way in which we are losing species and losing the

1030
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 1: quality of our natural resources. So I think land use

1031
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 1: and that's why it was this paper is published in

1032
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: Land Use Policy because I thought hunting is actually contributing

1033
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,760
Speaker 1: to a reduction and conversion of land out of natural spaces.

1034
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: That would be a really great finding. We oftentimes think

1035
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: of I think of hunting, we think of conservation is

1036
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: okay practices on the ground, and we'll get to that

1037
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: next because we did get into that this paper. But

1038
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: I also thought, well, what's the indirect aspect of people

1039
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: are paying money to keep land and this Aldo Leopold method.

1040
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,800
Speaker 1: They're paying money to a rancher and he's keeping his

1041
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: land as a ranch instead of selling off twenty acres

1042
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,240
Speaker 1: here and thirty acres there for whether it's a vineyard

1043
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: or housing development or whatever. And he's keeping and hunting

1044
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:36,320
Speaker 1: is helping him stay in business, so he keeps his

1045
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 1: unit contiguous. That's a win for conservation. So that the

1046
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 1: land use aspect, the lack of fragmentation aspect, So it's

1047
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: it's it's this happens we we apply this to a

1048
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 1: lot of the international hunting issues, you know, trophy trophy

1049
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: hunting based conservation. For lack of a really much better

1050
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 1: term than that, it's like hunting creates value, right in

1051
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 1: this case is what I'm from reading your paper when

1052
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 1: I'm what I'm getting from from it is hunting creates

1053
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: this value, and value really is what conservation is all about.

1054
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 1: If something has value, you want to conserve it, right, So,

1055
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 1: and then conservation leads to if this equation one one

1056
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 1: step further, the propagation of wildlife pushing it down those

1057
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: three levels. And so that's I think what when this

1058
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: was introduced to me, I was like, whoa perfect like

1059
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: this fits right into that this This is data that

1060
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: someone has done a lot of work to compile, kind

1061
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: of illustrating that equation in some way. Yeah, yeah, you know. Value.

1062
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: I think it's a really great way to think about

1063
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 1: this is the value of our natural resources, the value

1064
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: of of range land versus a vineyard. And economically, if

1065
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: you look at the dollars and cents, there's a lot

1066
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: of money we found there was billions of dollars being

1067
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: spent for I think it's two billion dollars a year

1068
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: going towards private land conservation or so private land recreation.

1069
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: And that's a that's a lot of money, and I

1070
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: mean two billion dollars a lot of money. But compared

1071
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: to the US economy, compared to agriculture, it's it's really

1072
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: quite small. And it is a contribution. And I think

1073
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 1: what I wanted to show was say, well, how much

1074
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 1: of a contribution. Where is it working at the edges

1075
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: where it's actually helping. And if you were to lose it,

1076
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: you would be losing potentially a subsidy of real value

1077
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: of economic value of billions of dollars of real value

1078
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: of dollar values for natural lands. Um. So if you

1079
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: were to ban hunting, you'd lose You lose this, you

1080
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: lose this incentive for ranchers stan ranching the money that

1081
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,919
Speaker 1: they would say this is a value. There's a whole

1082
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 1: another aspect of value though too for ranchers that has

1083
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: been uncovered with some of my colleagues, researchers Dr Lynn

1084
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 1: Hunt Singer, my my colleague here, it's found that ranchers

1085
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: aren't ranching for money. Ranting is a horrible business to

1086
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: get into. Oftentimes you'll make. You'll make one percent return

1087
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: on your uh, on all your money, on all your

1088
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 1: land capital, you make one percent return. You do way

1089
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: better just to go stick it in the stock market,

1090
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: far better. Um, But people do because they enjoy it.

1091
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: Often times, he's ranches will lose one percent a year

1092
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: or they'll break even many years, but they do it

1093
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: because they like it, and there's a lifestyle aspect, and

1094
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: there's a value that they place on it that's the

1095
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 1: equivalent of what they what they could make in the

1096
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: stock market. That's funny. Yeah, at some level, this is

1097
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: probably over generalization, Like hunting can subsidize someone's you know,

1098
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 1: there's there's the ways that subsidies kind of support this,

1099
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 1: this ranching lifestyle, farming lifestyle. The government does it all

1100
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: the time, but hunting lease is kind of a way

1101
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: to do that as well. Yeah, it's a it's a

1102
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 1: way that they can help them if they're I've talked

1103
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: to ranchers who said, you know, at least I know

1104
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 1: my hunting income is solid. Every year, I'm gonna get

1105
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: ninety a year from my hunting lease. And this is

1106
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: a big ranch. So um, he's like, I know, I'm

1107
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 1: getting that the cattle the cattle might make ten thousand

1108
00:59:57,640 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 1: that year, they might make a hundred thousand that year,

1109
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: and there's it's highly variable in the cattle market. But

1110
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 1: at least he knew he got this sort of baseline

1111
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: from the hunting. The King Ranch in Texas has some

1112
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 1: really great um descriptions showing this the stability of their

1113
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 1: wildlife and hunting revenue compared to the livestock industry, which

1114
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: is really volatile. So yeah, if and in a lot

1115
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: of places in Texas it ends up about half and half,

1116
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: hunting ends up being about as much as the livestock.

1117
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: So in that case, that's a big component to the

1118
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: economic picture for these ranchers, in addition to the fact

1119
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 1: that they did do it because they love it. Yeah,

1120
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: then you've got one thing I pulled out here. Private

1121
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 1: landers in the US are an approximate at one point

1122
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 1: five billion dollars in the annual income from hunting over

1123
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: two million acres. And there's a lot of these percentages

1124
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 1: and stuff I I like it, which is sixteen four

1125
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: six four percent of all private lands in the US. Yeah,

1126
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 1: that's just an interesting stack to me. Yeah, and interesting

1127
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: to see it presented in that way. Big areas and

1128
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: you know, we went further beyond sort of this sort

1129
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: of big that all this stuff we've talked about so

1130
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: far is this sort of big picture of like how

1131
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 1: land is used and how people value it, and we're

1132
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 1: what happens is really at the edges of land use.

1133
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: So if something's on the edge of shifting into a

1134
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 1: great orchard or almond orchard or some other sort of

1135
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 1: intensive agriculture, if if you reduce you're hunting revenue and

1136
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 1: take it out of the picture, it will just accelerate

1137
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: that transition. At these edges. It will make it that

1138
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: much less profitable, profitable, and so people will move into new,

1139
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: more profitable uses more quickly. That's sort of the larger

1140
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 1: economic theory of how this happens, and I think it

1141
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: plays out on our landscapes. The second thing we got

1142
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 1: some data on is why we looked into some of

1143
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: this U S Department of Agriculture datas. They gather information

1144
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: on what are people actually doing on the ground for

1145
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 1: conservation practices. Are they involved in some of these working

1146
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: lands programs which are um any of the people in

1147
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 1: your audience, you might be landowner, is probably familiar with

1148
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: the EQUIP program. Environmental Quality and Centers programs, the U

1149
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: s D a program that helps does cast share to

1150
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 1: to some conservation practices. We found people who were who

1151
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 1: had hunting leases there were more involved with these conservation programs.

1152
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: We found they were also more likely to hire private

1153
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 1: consultants to do conservation practices on their land. So we

1154
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 1: found additional correlations. We can't say for sure causation, but

1155
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 1: we did see people who had hunting leases, we're doing,

1156
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 1: we're participating more in these conservation programs, and they were

1157
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 1: participating in hiring private conservation folks. Those hunters were not arguing,

1158
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 1: I don't even look into the causation. We'll take it.

1159
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: I do. I do think there's a funny there's a

1160
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: funny point there. And we were talking earlier about the

1161
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 1: Quality Deer Management Association at q d m a UM

1162
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 1: and managing land for deer. Now you're you're doing, you're

1163
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: manipulating the land in certain ways. And if you talk

1164
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:49,520
Speaker 1: about in the Midwest or the East or the south,

1165
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 1: all of the land is disturbed. I mean, there's very

1166
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: few pristine places that haven't already been disturbed in some way.

1167
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 1: So a lot of deer hundles will come in pay

1168
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: for a lease and then plant food plots, hinge cut

1169
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 1: you know, make cover, screening cover from different areas where

1170
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 1: there's roads and things like that to give the deer

1171
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 1: a better place to thrive. And the question that we

1172
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: always ask is is that is are those activities, by

1173
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 1: happenstance driving biodiversity. How much is that kind of like

1174
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: single species driven changes to the landscape really helping everything.

1175
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if you have that answer, but it's

1176
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 1: just something that we've we've been looking at and talking

1177
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: about recently. Absolutely, I think it's something to think about. Absolutely. UM.

1178
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 1: I'd say, like if you talk to any any sort

1179
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: of academic, they'll say, well, it depends. That's the that's

1180
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 1: the big things that it depends. UM. Look, if you're look,

1181
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 1: if you're planting food plots for deer and having some

1182
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: cover and providing some of these habitat aspects, it's going

1183
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: to benefit some species and it might not be as

1184
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 1: beneficial for others. I think it's pretty safe to say

1185
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 1: it's probably better than a housing development, and that when

1186
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 1: I feel pretty sure about UM, it's probably better than

1187
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 1: an intensive agricultural operation. So UM to the extent that

1188
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 1: we make that comparison, I think, yeah, it's probably a win.

1189
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 1: It's probably win for conservation, even if it's single species management. Um.

1190
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 1: There are so many ways to measure biodiversity. We don't

1191
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: even oftentimes don't even think about invertebrate biodiversity. For example,

1192
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 1: it's hard to measure that. It's really hard to even

1193
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 1: get in there and measure the diversity of the thousands

1194
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 1: of species that you could find. And then you can

1195
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: go down down to bacteria and think about, well, what

1196
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 1: are the nematodes in the soil. What's about about the

1197
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 1: diversity at that level. So um, But I think that's

1198
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 1: where I think, you know, I think even hunters have

1199
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 1: a responsibility. Yeah, I think about that, Well, what are

1200
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: the what other species in your local area that might

1201
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: might really depend upon thick forests. Maybe there's some you know, uh,

1202
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 1: there's a some thick cedar forests in central Type because

1203
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 1: for example, they are important habitat for I think black

1204
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 1: cat vireos, are golden cheek warblers, these endangered species. You know,

1205
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 1: I think it's the responsibility of hunters and landowners when

1206
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 1: they get that landed dig in to call their local

1207
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: um in ourcs, their U S T a personnel call

1208
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: their local cooperative extension advisors find out, well, what what

1209
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: might not want to be thinking about beyond just deer.

1210
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: And there's so many, Like you say, there's so many reasons.

1211
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 1: We have a top secret project that media we're working

1212
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 1: on right now that that is running into this. You know,

1213
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 1: it's I can't I don't know how much I could say,

1214
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 1: but it's top secrets. But we're working on. We have

1215
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: a piece of land and we're trying to involve as

1216
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: many state and federal agencies as we can to come

1217
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 1: in and tell us what we can do better. And

1218
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: I think your point in the causation of I think

1219
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: hunters are just more inclined to think about conservation because

1220
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 1: the more you can serve the land and conserve the habitat,

1221
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 1: the more you have the game that you seek. It's

1222
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 1: just take it one step further. Is there more you

1223
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: can do not only to conserve that that have that

1224
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: for the game you seek, but for the other species

1225
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 1: as well? That will just help the entire ecosystem which

1226
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: you which you live and work and play. Absolutely. No.

1227
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,439
Speaker 1: I you know Steve Keller. Have you heard of Steve Keller?

1228
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 1: He was a Yale professor. I think he's retired now.

1229
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 1: He he did a really interesting stud He did surveys

1230
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: of hunters around the world, and he wrote up this

1231
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 1: brief publication and it didn't get it got published into

1232
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 1: some some small journal. It wasn't really out. It's not

1233
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:30,720
Speaker 1: really easy to find the internet. I should put it

1234
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 1: on my website. Maybe I'll do that after this I'd

1235
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 1: like to read it. He describes that he found through

1236
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 1: all of his efforts to of of serving hunters around

1237
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: the world, the US and Africa, all over the place,

1238
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 1: he found there was three types of hunters. He said.

1239
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 1: They were utilitarian hunters who just wanted meat, they wanted

1240
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 1: to bring home food. There were ecologistic hunters, who I

1241
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 1: think is the kind that we're trying to maybe advocate

1242
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 1: for or encourage people to think about. When we talked

1243
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 1: about this topic of well, what other species might you

1244
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 1: want to think about? And those folks, I think he

1245
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 1: was really articulate. He said, the's ecologistic hunters. They wanted

1246
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 1: to participate in the circle of life. They wanted to

1247
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: be part of it. And I think that was for me,

1248
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: helped me to describe for myself, like why I like

1249
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 1: to hunt it's not that I enjoy the kill. Um,

1250
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 1: I mean there there are aspects of that, Like I

1251
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 1: think this is part of being a predator in the

1252
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:28,919
Speaker 1: predator prey system, like participating in nature in a way

1253
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 1: that you don't if you're just watching it from the outside. Yeah,

1254
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 1: I'm getting ready to go and talk to some animal

1255
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 1: rights folks, and I'm that's very much the point I

1256
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 1: make always I feel this intense like proximity to how

1257
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 1: this all works. I can't I'm not sitting on the

1258
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 1: sidelines and and you know, using my emotions or using

1259
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 1: some sort of circular logic to kind of get to

1260
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:54,000
Speaker 1: the point where I feel good about what's happening. I'm

1261
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: inserting myself into it and trying to, over years and years,

1262
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: figure out what's the best way to interact with it. Yea,

1263
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 1: and it takes You're not gonna walk in with the answer.

1264
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 1: It probably won't walk out with it either, But yeah,

1265
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 1: it's better than sitting on the sidelines. Yeah, in a

1266
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:10,439
Speaker 1: lot of ways. Well, when you think about our evolutionary history,

1267
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 1: I think pent of our history we were hunter gatherers,

1268
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 1: So I think there is some deeply embedded aspects of

1269
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 1: our of our genetics that are tied to hunting and

1270
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: tied to finding our own food, and we have We'll

1271
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 1: also have another guy I'm talking to who's a human

1272
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 1: evolutionary biologist, and it says, like kids throw rocks. You know,

1273
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 1: I have a three year old son. He throws rocks

1274
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 1: like you wouldn't believe. Like he sees he picks up

1275
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 1: a rock, he doesn't think, what is this. He picks

1276
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: up a rock and he immediately looks around to what

1277
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 1: he can throw it, and he's like, dude, that's that's

1278
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 1: because humans, when we first figured out how to throw things,

1279
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 1: then we first started to figure out that we could

1280
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 1: procure our own meat. And and there's some kind of

1281
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 1: biological ticker in there that when your son picks up

1282
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:55,960
Speaker 1: a rock, he doesn't see something he might lick or

1283
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: put in his pocket. He sees something he needs to throw.

1284
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:01,800
Speaker 1: So there's a connection in there for sure. Yeah. The

1285
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 1: third type of hunters is to close that top. That's

1286
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:07,639
Speaker 1: that topic that Steve Kellet raised was the sportsman hunters,

1287
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 1: the trophy hunters that we think about today, which I

1288
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 1: think there was an interesting thing to think about um

1289
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:15,840
Speaker 1: for the hunting community. And I'm sure You've probably had

1290
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 1: great um people on your podcast, but I find that

1291
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: to be a really interesting thing. You know, one thing

1292
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:23,560
Speaker 1: people don't think about with the sport that trophy hunting community,

1293
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 1: is that it really came out of Theodore Roosevelt's efforts

1294
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 1: to reduce the amount of harvest of wildlife. The idea

1295
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:34,040
Speaker 1: was he would just take a single specimen that was

1296
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 1: hopefully past his prime, just past his prime. It's bread,

1297
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 1: it's it's lived a full life, and you take the

1298
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 1: single trophy, you take one instead of it is in

1299
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:44,719
Speaker 1: a time of market hunting when people were taking hundreds

1300
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 1: and hundreds of animals, and it was an idea to think, wow,

1301
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 1: we really actually can conserve the species by doing trophy

1302
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 1: hunting and encouraging people to just take a single animal.

1303
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 1: And I think today it's really taken on such a

1304
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 1: different tone. Yeah, And it's hard when you start to examine,

1305
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:03,919
Speaker 1: as as Keller lays out there, like the motivations of hunters.

1306
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 1: And that's why I think where it gets all twisted up,

1307
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 1: it's like, what's what's our motivation? Well, I mean, there

1308
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:10,720
Speaker 1: those are three really good types. I've met a lot

1309
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:15,919
Speaker 1: of types. Those are three pretty there's three pretty universal

1310
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 1: types that kind of covers probably hunters I've ever met.

1311
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 1: There's some some outliers there, I'm sure that kind of

1312
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:28,440
Speaker 1: like that. People people that don't like people that sometimes

1313
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:31,120
Speaker 1: are when I hunt when I'm not a trophy hunter,

1314
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:34,200
Speaker 1: when I hunt pheasants, Yeah, but when I'm when I'm

1315
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 1: hunting a mule deer, I'm a trophy hunter, all right.

1316
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,760
Speaker 1: So there there are just it's it's such an intertwining

1317
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 1: and twisting and turning story. But when you start to

1318
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 1: and that's what I think in the modern sense we've

1319
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:48,519
Speaker 1: done is trying to really look at what is the

1320
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 1: motivation of a hunter because there's so many people that

1321
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:56,160
Speaker 1: aren't motivated to do it. There's of the country that

1322
01:10:56,320 --> 01:10:58,639
Speaker 1: that are not motivated to do it, and there's there's

1323
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: a chunk of those folks that are motivated to stop it.

1324
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 1: And so that's I think we get so locked in

1325
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: on the motivations that it's hard to see. I think

1326
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:11,240
Speaker 1: that's what a lot of what what your paper because

1327
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 1: it's hard to see. You know, there's a lot of

1328
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 1: trophy hunters that have leases and what they're doing is

1329
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 1: benefiting the landscape. Now you have to separate I always

1330
01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 1: are you. You need to separate those two things, you know,

1331
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,919
Speaker 1: but it's also good to be aware of the benefits

1332
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 1: of of every part of every motivation and hunting, yeah,

1333
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:34,480
Speaker 1: no matter what it is. And I think those ecologists

1334
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 1: motivated hunters are. I mean there's a lot of them,

1335
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 1: and they have a lot of them in the white

1336
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:43,920
Speaker 1: tail space. And in fact, we had a gentleman from

1337
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:46,559
Speaker 1: the q d m A write a little social post

1338
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:49,640
Speaker 1: about Hey, look, you know I think it was I

1339
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 1: don't want to miss quote a hunters live not in

1340
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 1: the West. There's like there's hunters that live in West,

1341
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:03,719
Speaker 1: but there's yeah, the bulk of that as public lands.

1342
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,599
Speaker 1: I'll have to get the right numbers of our public

1343
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 1: lands are in the West, only of our hunters. Yeah,

1344
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 1: And like your research, your research backs up the power

1345
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:16,600
Speaker 1: of the South and the East and the Midwest and

1346
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:19,680
Speaker 1: that private land, Yeah, chunk of what we do and

1347
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 1: access in getting people the ability to get out there

1348
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:25,559
Speaker 1: and to participate in this nature. I think that that's

1349
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 1: how I got into conservation, because I wanted to be outside.

1350
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 1: I wanted to participate in this cycle of life out

1351
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 1: on ranches. I fell in love with ranches, working it today.

1352
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 1: Um And I think the more that we can encourage,

1353
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 1: you know, ranchers, farmers and ranchers who might have a

1354
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:45,560
Speaker 1: bad opinion of hunters to think about, well, maybe I

1355
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 1: should open my lands up for hunters. Maybe I should

1356
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:50,839
Speaker 1: consider this as a something that can not only benefit

1357
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 1: me economically, but also benefit the natural resources on my

1358
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:58,800
Speaker 1: land through their work. Oftentimes hunters will will volunteer their

1359
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 1: time and effort to do that work. Um. And so

1360
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 1: I think they're while we show there's the land areas

1361
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 1: and for us for wildlife Associate recreation, a bunch of

1362
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:11,120
Speaker 1: that's hunting, that's still theres still a whole lot of

1363
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 1: other land that's not being used, so that's closed off.

1364
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:16,680
Speaker 1: People might think that huntings or hunters are going to

1365
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:19,719
Speaker 1: shoot your cow or shoot your horse. I've never actually

1366
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:22,439
Speaker 1: met anybody who actually experienced that. Um, But it's a

1367
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:25,640
Speaker 1: sort of a narrative that is an excuse to not

1368
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 1: let people on. But I think the more we can

1369
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 1: allow people in these urban areas to get into get

1370
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:35,080
Speaker 1: out into that nature. Look, we're we're we have too

1371
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 1: much too much at stake to not work together. Right Like,

1372
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 1: if you don't think animals, you shouldn't hunt animals, um,

1373
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:44,800
Speaker 1: but you still want to. I think animal rights folks

1374
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:48,000
Speaker 1: they want to maintain wildlife. They want to maintain natural

1375
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:50,560
Speaker 1: areas well. I guess what hunters do to. But we

1376
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:53,800
Speaker 1: have a fundamental difference on whether you should harvest an

1377
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: animal or not. But in the end, our goal is

1378
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,840
Speaker 1: to maintain natural areas. And if we're fighting each other,

1379
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 1: we're just really we're missing an opportunity to work together

1380
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 1: and find the common ground. And yeah, considered pland I

1381
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 1: always tell this folks, we start from the exact same

1382
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:10,760
Speaker 1: place like you. It's almost if we were standing back

1383
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:13,960
Speaker 1: to back and we turned around like, hey, well we're

1384
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 1: in the same spot. We both care about natural places

1385
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 1: and wildlife, and ECO says we all we care about this.

1386
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:21,920
Speaker 1: And in our country, we're lucky enough that most people

1387
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:25,519
Speaker 1: value these things. Like the bulk of the people this

1388
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 1: country would would say, there's hurt help. Do you value that?

1389
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:31,439
Speaker 1: You want that to be there? Yes, of course I do, um,

1390
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 1: And we have a structure in place to keep it there.

1391
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 1: But then for animal rights folks, for hunters, you start

1392
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:38,720
Speaker 1: to kind of walk away from each other and you

1393
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:41,320
Speaker 1: forget that you started in the same spot. Because that's

1394
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:44,360
Speaker 1: so I mean, it's so easy to sensationalize the animal

1395
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:47,759
Speaker 1: rights folks beliefs. You know, I think, oh, animal personhood,

1396
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 1: that's silly. They think killing something and say you care

1397
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,160
Speaker 1: about it, that's silly. And you get caught up in

1398
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 1: like those really you know, those videosyncrasies and and and

1399
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:00,479
Speaker 1: the fact that we kill we want to kill them,

1400
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:03,840
Speaker 1: they don't want to kill them, right, But that's I mean,

1401
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 1: that's what the conversation is. That's where that's where the

1402
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 1: heads come together, and like, how can we figure this

1403
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:11,439
Speaker 1: out where we can co exist. We're both you know,

1404
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:13,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot of hunting stories that have led to

1405
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:16,600
Speaker 1: a lot of wildlife, a lot more wild life. And

1406
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 1: how how nice if we every time we heard those

1407
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:20,599
Speaker 1: sort of those sort of descriptions that you just said,

1408
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 1: like if we had instead it, Well, actually we both

1409
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:24,680
Speaker 1: want the same thing. We both really want to make

1410
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:27,639
Speaker 1: sure these species survive in the future as a whole,

1411
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:31,600
Speaker 1: that the population are viable and the ecosystems are maintained.

1412
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:35,479
Speaker 1: Your hands off, I'm hands on. Can we just agree

1413
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:37,599
Speaker 1: that that's what where we are? And well, I mean,

1414
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:40,559
Speaker 1: let's raise the deficiency. Who who does better for wild

1415
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:43,320
Speaker 1: or each has a role, Yeah, each has a Yeah better,

1416
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 1: that's way better. Uh So you one thing that interesting.

1417
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 1: I don't know that this shock people is interesting, It

1418
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:54,560
Speaker 1: said the anally in your paper. The analysis revealed that

1419
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 1: ten point two to eleven point three of the land

1420
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:02,320
Speaker 1: area the South, Midwest, and Northeast are primarily owned for hunting,

1421
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:04,080
Speaker 1: while less than one percent of the land and the

1422
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:06,599
Speaker 1: West was owned for hunting. In terms of leasse lands

1423
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 1: the South and Northeast of their respective land us for

1424
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:14,200
Speaker 1: hunting leases, there's only four two percent of the land

1425
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:16,479
Speaker 1: in the Midwest and West are at least for hunting. Yeah,

1426
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: it wasn't that interesting. I mean, there's a lot of

1427
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:20,240
Speaker 1: numbers you through out there, but there's some some nuances,

1428
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:23,200
Speaker 1: especially in the Midwest, where you had a lot of

1429
01:16:23,280 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 1: people owning land for hunting but very few people leasing

1430
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 1: land for hunting. And I started digging in, like what

1431
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:31,880
Speaker 1: is happening in the Midwest. That's that's a bunch of

1432
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:34,880
Speaker 1: hunters live in Wisconsin, and that's that's some of the

1433
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:37,280
Speaker 1: highest density of hunters in our country in that area.

1434
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 1: And as I dug into some of those states, if

1435
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:44,360
Speaker 1: I found some policies and This is where the paper

1436
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 1: sort of ends, is sort of like to think about

1437
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:49,599
Speaker 1: in the future and has become a new research avenue

1438
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:54,559
Speaker 1: for US. But Wisconsin and Minnesota and Michigan, I believe

1439
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:56,880
Speaker 1: all three of those states. Maybe maybe it's just Michigan

1440
01:16:56,920 --> 01:17:00,880
Speaker 1: and Wisconsin have these forest land and Acts which give

1441
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 1: property tax breaks to landowners forced landowners if they open

1442
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:07,679
Speaker 1: up their land for free public hunting, so it cannot

1443
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 1: be leased, so you have that tax break is sort

1444
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:13,439
Speaker 1: of allowed opening up a lot of free, free land,

1445
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:16,240
Speaker 1: but it's reducing I think. I mean, millions of acres

1446
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:19,200
Speaker 1: are in some of these programs in Wisconsin and Michigan,

1447
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 1: so I think that really reduces the sort of area

1448
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 1: that's that's leased in these states. But it points to

1449
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,560
Speaker 1: the power of policies and how policies can incentivize and

1450
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:32,479
Speaker 1: change the dynamics for access for hunters. And what does

1451
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 1: that mean. Yeah, I mean when we talk about in Texas,

1452
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 1: you're from there and I live there, and we talk

1453
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 1: about like what it means to go hunting in that

1454
01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 1: state leases, I think if you were to ask all hunters,

1455
01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:47,640
Speaker 1: could we eliminate leases and just give free access to

1456
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:49,880
Speaker 1: every place where you'd like to go hunting big. Yeah, sure,

1457
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:52,679
Speaker 1: I'll keep my money about spend it on something else.

1458
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:54,800
Speaker 1: I think we would all agree on that. I mean,

1459
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:57,320
Speaker 1: we will all agree that are all of our most

1460
01:17:57,400 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 1: hunters goal. My goal is to own land one day.

1461
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:01,840
Speaker 1: If ever it's way far it, I'm gonna have to

1462
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 1: do a lot more podcasts. Tell your friends, folks, I

1463
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 1: wanna need more downloads. But that's I think, you know,

1464
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:13,519
Speaker 1: that's the American gold, American dreams part of my goal.

1465
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:16,960
Speaker 1: But there's these like things you know in the middle,

1466
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:19,160
Speaker 1: and leasing is kind of like the next best thing.

1467
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: But we would all I think we would all agree.

1468
01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:24,320
Speaker 1: If we didn't have to do that, we wouldn't do it.

1469
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:26,280
Speaker 1: But that's the reality of Texas in a lot of

1470
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 1: places where leasing happens. And to see a lot of

1471
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:33,560
Speaker 1: your numbers looking at least land, you know, just just

1472
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:35,800
Speaker 1: shows me how how many people are doing and how

1473
01:18:36,040 --> 01:18:40,720
Speaker 1: how as a hunting company that I work for, this

1474
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:43,320
Speaker 1: pod podcast about honey, we don't talk about how to

1475
01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:46,720
Speaker 1: least land, How where did lease land, what to do

1476
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 1: with it, how to how to be a good lease e,

1477
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:51,680
Speaker 1: how to how to find people to come and leash

1478
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:53,840
Speaker 1: your land that will take good care of it. And

1479
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:55,960
Speaker 1: we don't really talk about that subject all that much.

1480
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:58,080
Speaker 1: And it's it's the numbers that you're buried out to

1481
01:18:58,120 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 1: be a pretty impactful thing. There's so many opportunities. I've

1482
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:04,120
Speaker 1: met so many where this works well. Land owners who

1483
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:06,800
Speaker 1: really love their they're hunting their hunters, they love having

1484
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:09,599
Speaker 1: them out there. They provide a service to them. They

1485
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:11,479
Speaker 1: know there's not going to be an illegal pot grow

1486
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: in the back back of the ranch. They know that

1487
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:16,880
Speaker 1: there's gonna be guys crawling around the property and keeping

1488
01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:19,679
Speaker 1: an eye on it. Um A lot of times people

1489
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,200
Speaker 1: do free work, take care of the property, fixed wells,

1490
01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 1: report if the water, if the water troughs empty for

1491
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:27,720
Speaker 1: the livestock, or they see livestock sick. It's nice to

1492
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:29,479
Speaker 1: have this sort of eyes on the ground for us,

1493
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:32,840
Speaker 1: some of his landowners. The other thing about leases I

1494
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:35,200
Speaker 1: think we haven't touched on yet is that you know

1495
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:38,639
Speaker 1: and and this is right. I actually questioned Steve Ronnella

1496
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:44,160
Speaker 1: at the recent Congressional Sportsman's Foundation uh National Assembly of

1497
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:47,280
Speaker 1: Sportsmen's Caucuses. He was he was speaking in New Hampshire,

1498
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:51,400
Speaker 1: Breton Woods, New Hampshire, beautiful place and he he had mentioned,

1499
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:53,320
Speaker 1: you know, the importance of access and the ability to

1500
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:56,680
Speaker 1: get out. I coming from Texas, I grew up and

1501
01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:00,600
Speaker 1: hunted on private lands, friends lands and friends ranches, and

1502
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:02,559
Speaker 1: it's a white tail system, so there's a lot higher

1503
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 1: density of deer. But coming out to California and becoming

1504
01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:10,479
Speaker 1: a public land hunter that it is exceedingly hard and

1505
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:14,160
Speaker 1: sometimes to even see a single legal animal over the

1506
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,559
Speaker 1: course of a week. Um it takes a whole another

1507
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 1: level of skill, which is good. It's it's if you

1508
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:24,400
Speaker 1: want to become an excellent hunter, being able to harvest

1509
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 1: a solid trophy buck on public land, you have to

1510
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 1: be a really quite a good hunter, or very you

1511
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:33,240
Speaker 1: might get really lucky too, that's right, But um it,

1512
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:35,280
Speaker 1: I think it can be discouraging for a new hunter

1513
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:38,479
Speaker 1: going out, um and to spend a week out and

1514
01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:40,800
Speaker 1: not even see a legal buck because they have gotten

1515
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:45,680
Speaker 1: so attuned to the to the pressures that they just

1516
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:49,800
Speaker 1: become totally nocturnal. At whenever the cunning season opens, they

1517
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:52,200
Speaker 1: can hear. It is remarkable too. I mean, we have

1518
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:55,760
Speaker 1: half of California's public land and even though there's very

1519
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:58,759
Speaker 1: there's only what two percent of the state population as hunters.

1520
01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:00,679
Speaker 1: You go out into the men to see no national

1521
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:05,120
Speaker 1: forests on opening day of archery season and every campground

1522
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 1: is full. There are vehicles driving those roads. There are

1523
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:11,760
Speaker 1: lots of people here. Yeah, these dear no, they can

1524
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:14,519
Speaker 1: smell the smell the exhaust in the forest and thinking

1525
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:16,960
Speaker 1: something's going on today, I better high tail out of here.

1526
01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:19,880
Speaker 1: And that was that's uh So, some of these challenges

1527
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:21,920
Speaker 1: in the public land and when you talked about were

1528
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:24,960
Speaker 1: eliminate all leases and let free public access. You know,

1529
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:27,880
Speaker 1: in some ways there's there's some beneficial aspects to having

1530
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:32,080
Speaker 1: that limitation, to to be able to really limit the

1531
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:36,120
Speaker 1: density of hunters out there. Um, I don't know. I

1532
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:37,600
Speaker 1: don't know how to how to manage that in some

1533
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:39,679
Speaker 1: of these systems because I am torn. It is great

1534
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:41,240
Speaker 1: to have public access and be able to go out

1535
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:43,719
Speaker 1: whenever you want, But then if you don't see a deer,

1536
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 1: you don't see a harvestable animal, that's that's tough. It's hard.

1537
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:50,000
Speaker 1: I've been flipping about it in the past, say things like, well,

1538
01:21:50,080 --> 01:21:52,280
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta value the experience, you gotta value

1539
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:54,720
Speaker 1: the time outside, and then at the end of the

1540
01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:57,960
Speaker 1: day you're like wait, wait, wait, wait wait, Um, If

1541
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:01,640
Speaker 1: I'm playing chess, I'm trump beach the goal. I have

1542
01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:03,759
Speaker 1: a goal. If I'm hunting, I'm trying to kill an animal.

1543
01:22:04,080 --> 01:22:06,800
Speaker 1: Like it's it's it's just silly for someone so well, yeah,

1544
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:09,080
Speaker 1: it's like being outside. No, I'm I'd like to have

1545
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:12,640
Speaker 1: some nice fresh meat on the round. So yeah, I

1546
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 1: know that it's it's a point to be made that

1547
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:16,439
Speaker 1: there's a balance, right, And that's what I think, I

1548
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:19,479
Speaker 1: really think this conversation really is all about. Is in

1549
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:22,960
Speaker 1: my mind, is that's what it's about. It's about understanding

1550
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:28,680
Speaker 1: the whole picture, and not that I feel that we

1551
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:31,320
Speaker 1: need to over emphasize one thing or the other. But

1552
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:33,439
Speaker 1: I've always said, and I've said this on this podcast

1553
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:36,800
Speaker 1: many times, public lands. It's like apple Pie and bald

1554
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:39,719
Speaker 1: Eagles and Teddy Rose about it's easy to love public lands.

1555
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,320
Speaker 1: I mean it's and it's also easy to promote them.

1556
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:45,280
Speaker 1: I mean, what is it. It's free access, it's not

1557
01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:47,639
Speaker 1: for you to pay for it. But we all own them.

1558
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:49,679
Speaker 1: We have these shirts public land owners. We all own

1559
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:53,200
Speaker 1: this land. We have this. I've I've hunted primarily National

1560
01:22:53,280 --> 01:22:56,760
Speaker 1: Forest for the last for all the Turkey season, and

1561
01:22:57,439 --> 01:22:58,960
Speaker 1: my Dad's from the East Coast and he comes to

1562
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:00,880
Speaker 1: hunt with me, and I don't know that he really understands.

1563
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 1: And I don't know that I do yet because I've

1564
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:04,760
Speaker 1: only been living in Montana for six, six or eight months,

1565
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:08,120
Speaker 1: not that I that I don't really understand that. So

1566
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:12,040
Speaker 1: it's it's public is an easy sell. It's like, we

1567
01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:14,439
Speaker 1: all pay into this, we all get to use it.

1568
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:18,320
Speaker 1: It's beautiful landscapes. It's open for for us to fish,

1569
01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:20,240
Speaker 1: to hunt, to recreate in the ways that we want,

1570
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:22,360
Speaker 1: as long as we take care of it right. It's easy.

1571
01:23:23,120 --> 01:23:25,400
Speaker 1: It's hard, and it's harder to sell leases to people.

1572
01:23:25,439 --> 01:23:28,040
Speaker 1: It's harder to talk about private lands and talk about leases.

1573
01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:30,920
Speaker 1: It's just not as it's not as marketable. It just isn't.

1574
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:32,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. I see this is this is my

1575
01:23:33,080 --> 01:23:35,400
Speaker 1: Texas up upbring coming up because I go out to

1576
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 1: public land and I see a full campground and I

1577
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 1: see cars all over the roads, and I'm like, oh man,

1578
01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:42,120
Speaker 1: this is not what I was looking for I want.

1579
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:44,240
Speaker 1: I'm thirty miles down a dirt road in the middle

1580
01:23:44,240 --> 01:23:48,920
Speaker 1: of Mendisine National Forest and there's people everywhere and the

1581
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:51,360
Speaker 1: nice I mean, there's a certain aspect of density of

1582
01:23:51,439 --> 01:23:54,320
Speaker 1: people that that can also I mean, it's easy to sell.

1583
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:56,720
Speaker 1: But also I mean I've seen hunting videos were like, yeah,

1584
01:23:56,760 --> 01:23:59,160
Speaker 1: we're planning and going this one valley and for a

1585
01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:01,840
Speaker 1: sheep hunt, but there was twenty cars in the parking lot.

1586
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 1: We had to change plans. We're going somewhere else. And

1587
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:07,600
Speaker 1: so there is I mean, that's another thing in this

1588
01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:10,439
Speaker 1: paper found is that the density of people using hunting

1589
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:13,120
Speaker 1: lands that you can use these big, wide open spaces,

1590
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:16,280
Speaker 1: and part of what we want is hunters is to

1591
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:17,800
Speaker 1: kind of get away from it all and get away

1592
01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:22,120
Speaker 1: from the crowds, and so the I think there are

1593
01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:24,160
Speaker 1: public plans where you can find that, but as they

1594
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:26,840
Speaker 1: get discovered, you can have it. Can we definitely love

1595
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 1: them to death? We we can love what we have loved.

1596
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:31,839
Speaker 1: I mean I was talking to a buddy from Colorado

1597
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:34,280
Speaker 1: and he's he's like, we are loving the outdoors to

1598
01:24:34,360 --> 01:24:36,639
Speaker 1: death in the state. You know, I said, it's coming

1599
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:38,920
Speaker 1: for all the other states that have these resources. People

1600
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:40,800
Speaker 1: want to use them and then they can be loved

1601
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:42,320
Speaker 1: to death. So that that is a point. I think

1602
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 1: they're these competing principles. One of the principles in public

1603
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:49,560
Speaker 1: lands is like, there's no elitism in public lands. You

1604
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 1: could be rich, you could be poor. You could have

1605
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:53,360
Speaker 1: a dollar, you could have a million, but you can

1606
01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:56,880
Speaker 1: still go. If you have enough money for the tag

1607
01:24:57,000 --> 01:25:00,200
Speaker 1: and enough time, you could still go and use this source.

1608
01:25:00,280 --> 01:25:03,720
Speaker 1: We all it kind of levels the playing field, and

1609
01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:07,080
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. But what happens with private land and leasing.

1610
01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:11,320
Speaker 1: There's this this idea that that's what we came to

1611
01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:14,679
Speaker 1: this this new world to kind of to escape some way.

1612
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:17,120
Speaker 1: But at the same time, like you said, I think

1613
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:19,640
Speaker 1: both these things that play together, both these ideas that

1614
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:24,719
Speaker 1: played together helped disperse the opportunity, helped disperse the number

1615
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:27,240
Speaker 1: of hunters, and so that it all has to matter,

1616
01:25:28,120 --> 01:25:31,160
Speaker 1: um provide opportunities. Yeah, it all has to matter together.

1617
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:32,880
Speaker 1: So I'm just trying to better understand that I would

1618
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:35,640
Speaker 1: admit to not really when I read your paper, I'm like,

1619
01:25:35,680 --> 01:25:38,679
Speaker 1: there's a portion of this that I don't understand. There's

1620
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:41,599
Speaker 1: a portion of this entire land news picture that I'm

1621
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:44,080
Speaker 1: not picking up here and and reading your paper, I

1622
01:25:44,160 --> 01:25:47,799
Speaker 1: started to pick up some of it um in better detail,

1623
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:50,920
Speaker 1: because I understand, Yeah, in the East, in the South,

1624
01:25:51,040 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people in Eastland in Texas, A lot

1625
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:55,200
Speaker 1: of people in Eastland, a lot of people just have

1626
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:57,320
Speaker 1: to be really friendly to landowners to get a chance

1627
01:25:57,360 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 1: to go hunt and equality of game. I knew that,

1628
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:03,240
Speaker 1: but this starts to paint a picture that's important. I think, Yeah.

1629
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:06,479
Speaker 1: And I also think it's a you know, the elite

1630
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:09,560
Speaker 1: ism thing. Maybe it's I you know, I when I

1631
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:11,479
Speaker 1: go out and talk to ranchers, I rarely meet a

1632
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:16,000
Speaker 1: rancher who's elite. I usually find somebody who's we're in

1633
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 1: jeans that are dirty, an old shirt, and they're working

1634
01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:23,160
Speaker 1: to land. They're working hard. And I mean, there certainly

1635
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:27,920
Speaker 1: are elite landowners for sure, but by and large i've

1636
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:31,559
Speaker 1: I didn't. One of my doctoral chapters was to interview

1637
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 1: ranchers and they're like, and I'd tell people hear at Berkeley.

1638
01:26:34,520 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go interview ranchers around

1639
01:26:36,240 --> 01:26:38,080
Speaker 1: the state. And they're like, you're gonna tell me you're

1640
01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:41,600
Speaker 1: from Berkeley. I was like, yeah, yeah, I guess so

1641
01:26:41,680 --> 01:26:44,240
Speaker 1: I have to. I've got to introduce myself. And you know,

1642
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:47,559
Speaker 1: like I was amazed how few people of these ranchers.

1643
01:26:47,960 --> 01:26:50,040
Speaker 1: I sometimes get a little bit of eyebrow raised but

1644
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:52,799
Speaker 1: a lot of these people their kids came to Berkeley,

1645
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:56,000
Speaker 1: or their grandparents went to Berkeley, but their parents so

1646
01:26:56,160 --> 01:26:59,240
Speaker 1: that they themselves did. So there's you know, a lot

1647
01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:02,599
Speaker 1: of these things are sceptions about like how different we are.

1648
01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:05,400
Speaker 1: And as soon as you meet somebody, shake their hand,

1649
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:08,240
Speaker 1: you tell me you're just interested in knowing their perspective.

1650
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:11,160
Speaker 1: They want us to share their story too. And I

1651
01:27:11,240 --> 01:27:14,400
Speaker 1: think I think that plays with private leases as well.

1652
01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:16,960
Speaker 1: I think if you look at it as this as

1653
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:19,320
Speaker 1: this big no trespassing sign and this big scary thing,

1654
01:27:20,120 --> 01:27:22,960
Speaker 1: if you instead just call him up. I've had remarkable

1655
01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:25,880
Speaker 1: luck just calling up a landowner. And I called up

1656
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:28,320
Speaker 1: a couple of landowners. I had some some staff flower

1657
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:30,400
Speaker 1: growing up growing on it just north of Davis for

1658
01:27:30,479 --> 01:27:33,080
Speaker 1: dove hunting. Uh, and it it takes a lot of

1659
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:35,439
Speaker 1: courage to call, to make a cold call to a landowner.

1660
01:27:36,040 --> 01:27:38,479
Speaker 1: And I called two people and both of them granted

1661
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 1: me access, and they were so they were grateful that

1662
01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:43,080
Speaker 1: I even called them. They're like, wow, thank you so

1663
01:27:43,200 --> 01:27:46,360
Speaker 1: much for calling. That's really nice of you. Um, it's

1664
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 1: it's and they actually felt I think pleased to be

1665
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:52,640
Speaker 1: able to be generous to to you know, at the

1666
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:55,160
Speaker 1: time a graduate student, somebody kind of lower income, and

1667
01:27:55,560 --> 01:27:57,160
Speaker 1: I just wanted to get out in the nature. So

1668
01:27:58,120 --> 01:28:00,160
Speaker 1: they have something at stake. They love these lands too.

1669
01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:02,320
Speaker 1: They have some mistake to encourage people to get out

1670
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:04,720
Speaker 1: there and to enjoy and love these lands in the

1671
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:08,720
Speaker 1: same way they do. So, so I I don't. I

1672
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:10,599
Speaker 1: don't like that sort of I mean, I grew up

1673
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:12,719
Speaker 1: in a place where, yeah, knew ranches that were super friendly,

1674
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:15,320
Speaker 1: so they're from these people I knew, and so I don't.

1675
01:28:16,240 --> 01:28:19,120
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily see that elitism thing is driving the

1676
01:28:19,240 --> 01:28:23,200
Speaker 1: private land lease arrangement. I see it more as as

1677
01:28:23,240 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 1: an opportunity for controlled and also for the ability to

1678
01:28:26,720 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 1: to go to a place and sort of making your own. Um.

1679
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:32,120
Speaker 1: Somebody described like the best hunting leases they've set up.

1680
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:34,439
Speaker 1: It was it was a guide. It was an operator

1681
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:37,080
Speaker 1: who set up leases hunting leases around the state, and

1682
01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 1: he said, you know, the best time is if you

1683
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 1: can get guys in there. They start treating the property

1684
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:43,599
Speaker 1: as if it's their own, and once somebody is there

1685
01:28:43,680 --> 01:28:46,160
Speaker 1: for three or five years, their kids start going, they

1686
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:49,320
Speaker 1: grow up there, their kids take over the lease. You know,

1687
01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:51,479
Speaker 1: it really is part of the landscape is part of

1688
01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:53,800
Speaker 1: their they're being. So I think that's the thing that

1689
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:57,720
Speaker 1: that that's a real opportunity. And in the places where

1690
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:01,280
Speaker 1: there aren't leases for whatever perceptions, whether it's oh you're

1691
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:04,080
Speaker 1: you're a leader, Oh hunters are just gonna come and

1692
01:29:04,120 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 1: shoot my cows or pop hole or shoot holes in

1693
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 1: my trough, you know, to the extent we can get

1694
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:12,040
Speaker 1: past those sort of caricatures, I think there's some real

1695
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:15,439
Speaker 1: opportunities to expand are yeah, yeah, and it's it's it's

1696
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:18,160
Speaker 1: a real important part of the conversation. I think, Um,

1697
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:22,880
Speaker 1: there is like I said, there're there, they're these ideas

1698
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,240
Speaker 1: that well, I would just say that it's leases and

1699
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:30,200
Speaker 1: things of that nature aren't something that we dig too

1700
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:34,280
Speaker 1: deep into. We just don't we dig deep into. Every

1701
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:37,519
Speaker 1: time there's a we need access to a certain you know,

1702
01:29:38,080 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 1: say the Crazy the Crazy Mountain Range there in Montana,

1703
01:29:41,400 --> 01:29:43,439
Speaker 1: we will fight for that. There's a lot of examples

1704
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:47,640
Speaker 1: of things that we fought for, um, the Sabinoso Wilderness

1705
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:50,960
Speaker 1: and and things that we're fighting for to have a

1706
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:53,600
Speaker 1: direct action. Right we if we do this, if we

1707
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:55,599
Speaker 1: get a walk in area here, if we get an

1708
01:29:55,640 --> 01:29:58,040
Speaker 1: easement here, we're gonna open up all this access to people.

1709
01:29:58,160 --> 01:30:00,240
Speaker 1: And so when you talk about, like pushing back on

1710
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:04,240
Speaker 1: Steve's comment on access, this access thing is is such

1711
01:30:04,280 --> 01:30:06,720
Speaker 1: a it's it's not a chicken. It's like, it's not

1712
01:30:06,720 --> 01:30:07,960
Speaker 1: a chicken in the egg. But like, if I can

1713
01:30:07,960 --> 01:30:10,519
Speaker 1: get an easement right here on this square chunk of land,

1714
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:15,240
Speaker 1: then that's then I've provided access and anybody that wants

1715
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:17,280
Speaker 1: to go through there can go through there, So that

1716
01:30:17,479 --> 01:30:19,760
Speaker 1: there really is a good feeling that that you're making

1717
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:22,960
Speaker 1: a difference there. It's harder to say, well, I mean,

1718
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:25,280
Speaker 1: we really talked a lot about leases and more people started.

1719
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 1: It's just not it's easy of equation. It's relationships, right,

1720
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:33,760
Speaker 1: It's like building relationships, and there's thousands and tens of

1721
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:36,960
Speaker 1: thousands of ways those can work out, and they can change,

1722
01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:39,240
Speaker 1: and they're not permanent. The nice thing about public lands

1723
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:42,200
Speaker 1: and a conservation easement, you've got a permanent access, which

1724
01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:45,720
Speaker 1: is really nice. Um, so what are we missing here?

1725
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:47,280
Speaker 1: There's so much I feel like we've got to be

1726
01:30:47,320 --> 01:30:49,320
Speaker 1: missing some stuff in your Yeah, well, I think one

1727
01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:51,120
Speaker 1: thing that's kind of interesting is we're digging in now.

1728
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:53,840
Speaker 1: After this we started thinking about what are states doing

1729
01:30:53,960 --> 01:30:58,040
Speaker 1: to seeing the impact of these policies and that Midwest

1730
01:30:58,120 --> 01:31:01,720
Speaker 1: area on affecting lease rate and things like that. We

1731
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:04,360
Speaker 1: started digging into how all the different states and we're

1732
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:06,519
Speaker 1: gonna present we're gonna pronoun a proposal to present this

1733
01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:11,600
Speaker 1: at the en NASK Summit for the National Assembly of

1734
01:31:11,640 --> 01:31:16,599
Speaker 1: Sportsmen's Caucuses with Congressional Sportsman's Foundation. Um, we're gonna propose

1735
01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:20,680
Speaker 1: that we've dug into six different policy areas for all

1736
01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:23,000
Speaker 1: fifty states. We've got three great undergraduates who have been

1737
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:24,880
Speaker 1: working on three four undergraduates have been working on this

1738
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:28,160
Speaker 1: over the course of the last year and its painstaking worth.

1739
01:31:28,200 --> 01:31:30,920
Speaker 1: They go to every single state and they dig into, well,

1740
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:33,280
Speaker 1: what are the cost share programs that are around. There's

1741
01:31:33,320 --> 01:31:35,240
Speaker 1: a big you know, federal government has a big cost

1742
01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:38,320
Speaker 1: share programs for conservation through the NRCS. Well, there a

1743
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:40,160
Speaker 1: lot of states we found we started digg into this,

1744
01:31:40,200 --> 01:31:42,280
Speaker 1: a lot of states have their own cost share programs.

1745
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:45,760
Speaker 1: What are the property tax systems? Obviously we saw the

1746
01:31:45,800 --> 01:31:50,639
Speaker 1: impacts of Wisconsin and um in Michigan's property tax laws

1747
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:54,040
Speaker 1: on and the effects that are likely affecting their leasing rates. Well,

1748
01:31:54,120 --> 01:31:56,840
Speaker 1: what how what are other states doing? For property tax exemptions.

1749
01:31:57,280 --> 01:32:00,240
Speaker 1: Does does Some states you only get your property TAXI

1750
01:32:00,240 --> 01:32:03,360
Speaker 1: exemption if it's an agriculture. You don't get it if

1751
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:07,439
Speaker 1: it's in wildlife conservation. Some states do, like in California,

1752
01:32:07,479 --> 01:32:09,720
Speaker 1: put in wildlife conservation, you put in recreation, it'll can

1753
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:12,519
Speaker 1: still count for your agricultural tax exemption. But some states don't.

1754
01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:14,680
Speaker 1: These are some things that there's a lot, yeah, we

1755
01:32:14,760 --> 01:32:16,840
Speaker 1: could think about and our super secret media to project

1756
01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:19,400
Speaker 1: where there's a lot of things where well, if you'll

1757
01:32:19,479 --> 01:32:21,320
Speaker 1: if you'll do this to the land, if you'll plant this,

1758
01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:23,560
Speaker 1: if you'll rotate these crops, if you'll do this, this

1759
01:32:23,720 --> 01:32:28,160
Speaker 1: will pay you. But now so I'm so now I'm

1760
01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:31,160
Speaker 1: I'm just leasing a property or or I bought a

1761
01:32:31,280 --> 01:32:34,479
Speaker 1: small piece of fragmented acre. It's just because I know

1762
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:36,040
Speaker 1: there's some deer on there and that's gonna be my

1763
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:38,280
Speaker 1: family might build a little capital there. And I've got

1764
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:42,120
Speaker 1: forty acres of my own. Finally, well, the government will

1765
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:43,519
Speaker 1: come in and say, if you do this, this, this,

1766
01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:47,800
Speaker 1: and this, we'll give you a monthly will basically rent

1767
01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:49,640
Speaker 1: this from you to give you a month payment. That

1768
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:52,760
Speaker 1: might help to subside like subsidize you're buying it a

1769
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:56,240
Speaker 1: property or or leasing the property out whatever. But then

1770
01:32:56,280 --> 01:32:58,280
Speaker 1: you also have a bunch of work to do. Yeah,

1771
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:00,360
Speaker 1: And if you just want to recreate and you just

1772
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:02,320
Speaker 1: want to hang some tree stands and kill some to hear,

1773
01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:07,080
Speaker 1: now you have this obligation to you know, keep up

1774
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:09,720
Speaker 1: the work that you've you've promised the government that you'll do.

1775
01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:13,320
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a weird there's a weird dichotomy there.

1776
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:15,360
Speaker 1: How do you how do you balance those things? Yeah,

1777
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:17,439
Speaker 1: they're trade offs, yeah, for different for how much you

1778
01:33:17,439 --> 01:33:19,360
Speaker 1: want to get involved with these things. And some people

1779
01:33:19,439 --> 01:33:21,080
Speaker 1: might might want to do these things even without the

1780
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:24,559
Speaker 1: government support. One rancher told me this joke once. He said,

1781
01:33:25,320 --> 01:33:27,040
Speaker 1: I just gotta repeat it because it is so funny,

1782
01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:29,840
Speaker 1: and I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying it. Um,

1783
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:33,000
Speaker 1: I have to have you censored out. Later. Um, I

1784
01:33:33,040 --> 01:33:35,120
Speaker 1: could beat I'll beat it out. And he said, he said,

1785
01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:39,360
Speaker 1: he said, we don't work, We don't do any government programs,

1786
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:41,800
Speaker 1: and this is just a big land under in California.

1787
01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:43,880
Speaker 1: He said, we don't do any of those because get

1788
01:33:43,960 --> 01:33:45,840
Speaker 1: in bed with the government, you get a lot more

1789
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:50,679
Speaker 1: than a good night's sleep. That is a strong opinion

1790
01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:55,000
Speaker 1: and some aspects of of the private land under community.

1791
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:57,240
Speaker 1: But so I just to illustrate there's just such a

1792
01:33:57,280 --> 01:33:59,519
Speaker 1: diversity of ways in which people look at this. But

1793
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:01,960
Speaker 1: I also think some of those landowners still might do

1794
01:34:02,240 --> 01:34:04,160
Speaker 1: a lot of these same practices anyways, they just don't

1795
01:34:04,160 --> 01:34:07,040
Speaker 1: want the government involved. Yeah, that's yeah, that's true. Like

1796
01:34:07,080 --> 01:34:08,880
Speaker 1: I said, once you get him involved, there's there's been

1797
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:12,360
Speaker 1: they'll they'll give you the benefits, right, there's financial benefits there,

1798
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:16,160
Speaker 1: but it it is you're now working with a complicated entity.

1799
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:19,360
Speaker 1: So you have a there's a big, a big data

1800
01:34:19,479 --> 01:34:23,400
Speaker 1: thing here. It's a bunch of numbers. It's down in

1801
01:34:23,439 --> 01:34:25,840
Speaker 1: the middle of the paper table too. This is land

1802
01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:30,519
Speaker 1: areaan property, characters is for wildife associated recreation and and

1803
01:34:32,120 --> 01:34:36,240
Speaker 1: total acre total acres and millions for these two things

1804
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:40,320
Speaker 1: by region. If you go to hunting, there's two d

1805
01:34:40,439 --> 01:34:44,720
Speaker 1: and twenty million, as we've discussed, lease acres and a

1806
01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:51,320
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty five million own acres. It's pretty interesting obviously,

1807
01:34:51,640 --> 01:34:53,880
Speaker 1: So explain those two numbers. Because when I look at this,

1808
01:34:53,920 --> 01:34:57,280
Speaker 1: I was like, so this survey look asked landowners are

1809
01:34:57,360 --> 01:35:02,800
Speaker 1: asked hunters, do you own or least land primarily for hunting, um,

1810
01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:05,760
Speaker 1: And so they could answer yes to either those UM.

1811
01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:09,960
Speaker 1: So they answered so they owned land primarily for the

1812
01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:12,160
Speaker 1: purpose of hunting, which was a whole lot. Hundred thirty

1813
01:35:12,200 --> 01:35:16,840
Speaker 1: five million acres was for people owned land primarily for hunting. Now,

1814
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:19,439
Speaker 1: the interesting difference is there's a lot more. There's quite

1815
01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 1: a bit more for leasing million acres for leasing land

1816
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:27,160
Speaker 1: for hunting. But um. The difference that's interesting is this

1817
01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:29,960
Speaker 1: mean size of the property. If you scoot over to

1818
01:35:30,479 --> 01:35:33,679
Speaker 1: the fourth or fifth column on there, the average size

1819
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:38,040
Speaker 1: of the least property is acres. So two thousand, four

1820
01:35:38,080 --> 01:35:40,720
Speaker 1: hundred acres you get on average if you're leasing land,

1821
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:43,639
Speaker 1: because if you're owning land is down at the average

1822
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:47,280
Speaker 1: is three six acres. I mean that that makes sense.

1823
01:35:47,400 --> 01:35:49,880
Speaker 1: Lands expensive, it makes sense, makes no But you can

1824
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:54,920
Speaker 1: lease a lot of land for acre uh, and you can.

1825
01:35:55,280 --> 01:35:56,840
Speaker 1: You can make your money go a lot farther and

1826
01:35:56,880 --> 01:35:59,599
Speaker 1: get a lot bigger acreage. After looking at this, I've

1827
01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:02,680
Speaker 1: always to own land to yeah, But after looking at this,

1828
01:36:02,920 --> 01:36:06,640
Speaker 1: I also want access to thousands of acres from my hunting. UM.

1829
01:36:06,840 --> 01:36:08,360
Speaker 1: It would be nice if I was in the high

1830
01:36:08,360 --> 01:36:10,760
Speaker 1: density area with white tail and turkeys were all over

1831
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:13,560
Speaker 1: the place. Yeah, a few acres probably do it. But

1832
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:16,320
Speaker 1: in the West for sure. Yeah, the numbers say least

1833
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:18,840
Speaker 1: at least get get to spend your money in two

1834
01:36:18,840 --> 01:36:21,120
Speaker 1: thousand acres lea well, and you wonder, you know, just

1835
01:36:21,240 --> 01:36:24,599
Speaker 1: that I'm thinking of my future, Like, if I'm gonna

1836
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:28,679
Speaker 1: spend the money for twenty years to least the same properties,

1837
01:36:29,200 --> 01:36:32,040
Speaker 1: I'd say it's two twenty years to least two thousand acres.

1838
01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:33,600
Speaker 1: I don't gotta pay the property tax, I don't go

1839
01:36:33,720 --> 01:36:36,439
Speaker 1: through the upkeep. I still have access to that property.

1840
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:38,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a really good care of it, probably

1841
01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:40,599
Speaker 1: have great relationships to the landowners. Or I could buy

1842
01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:43,240
Speaker 1: a couple of hundred acres and struggle with all the

1843
01:36:43,320 --> 01:36:45,680
Speaker 1: things we've talked about, which is keeping up with a

1844
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:49,040
Speaker 1: boid adversity, making sure um the land is taken care

1845
01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:52,599
Speaker 1: of and it's it's part of a healthier ecosystem overall.

1846
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:54,800
Speaker 1: So I mean, yeah, if I'm just if I'm just

1847
01:36:54,880 --> 01:36:57,439
Speaker 1: thinking about my hunting, yeah, I mean, I'm least you

1848
01:36:57,479 --> 01:36:59,080
Speaker 1: can if you can lock in a good least and

1849
01:36:59,160 --> 01:37:00,800
Speaker 1: you can find somebody in that's that's where the work

1850
01:37:00,840 --> 01:37:02,400
Speaker 1: comes in. If I got enough money for a land

1851
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:07,519
Speaker 1: manager on my O'Brien ranch that we're gonna buy. Um.

1852
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:10,599
Speaker 1: But the other thing that's interesting here just you broke

1853
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:13,679
Speaker 1: this also down into the four regions obviously Northeast, Midwest,

1854
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:17,760
Speaker 1: South and West. UM. So take people through both the

1855
01:37:17,880 --> 01:37:20,680
Speaker 1: lease and owned percentages just by region, because I think

1856
01:37:20,760 --> 01:37:25,759
Speaker 1: that's interesting. Yeah. The leasing, So about the land least

1857
01:37:25,800 --> 01:37:29,000
Speaker 1: in the countries in the South, Um, you think about

1858
01:37:29,240 --> 01:37:32,920
Speaker 1: Texas has a huge leasing industry, UM, as well as

1859
01:37:32,960 --> 01:37:36,080
Speaker 1: I think of the states like Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia. So

1860
01:37:36,160 --> 01:37:38,640
Speaker 1: it's just a culture of it. Um. Somebody once I

1861
01:37:38,680 --> 01:37:42,160
Speaker 1: think I make reference in the paper. One suggestion for

1862
01:37:42,280 --> 01:37:45,360
Speaker 1: why this is is that, oh gosh, it was a

1863
01:37:45,960 --> 01:37:49,559
Speaker 1: sociology paper. They said the South was predominantly settled by

1864
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:53,559
Speaker 1: people of from upland areas in Scotland and I think Ireland,

1865
01:37:54,120 --> 01:37:58,040
Speaker 1: and they tended to be more uh. I think they

1866
01:37:58,120 --> 01:38:02,920
Speaker 1: used the word territorial. Now we're getting real deep. So

1867
01:38:04,320 --> 01:38:08,960
Speaker 1: they were they were expecting to have payment for access

1868
01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:10,720
Speaker 1: on their land. And this is this is going way

1869
01:38:10,760 --> 01:38:13,599
Speaker 1: back to like you know, eighteen hundreds of time frame,

1870
01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:17,680
Speaker 1: whereas people in North came from areas in England where

1871
01:38:17,720 --> 01:38:21,240
Speaker 1: there was more of an open land culture, and so

1872
01:38:21,479 --> 01:38:23,920
Speaker 1: that this might have been I think I suggested this

1873
01:38:24,080 --> 01:38:26,120
Speaker 1: might be some of the reason why you see this

1874
01:38:26,280 --> 01:38:29,120
Speaker 1: very different rates of leasing in the South versus other

1875
01:38:29,400 --> 01:38:31,560
Speaker 1: um parts of the kinds pretty crazy. I mean the

1876
01:38:32,080 --> 01:38:35,840
Speaker 1: Midwest is five or the Midwest of six, Northeast five,

1877
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:40,800
Speaker 1: West eight forty two for the South. Yeah, it's very Yeah,

1878
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:44,200
Speaker 1: that's it's interesting. That's not a number that that that's

1879
01:38:44,200 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 1: a number that the bears explaining and if that's the way,

1880
01:38:47,640 --> 01:38:49,840
Speaker 1: and I think it's I think Texas is a big state,

1881
01:38:50,080 --> 01:38:51,960
Speaker 1: UM and that probably is a big part of that.

1882
01:38:52,160 --> 01:38:55,519
Speaker 1: And I think that same culture follows in place like Alabama.

1883
01:38:55,600 --> 01:38:59,759
Speaker 1: Damn you, Texas. You're always skewing the numbers owned total.

1884
01:39:00,040 --> 01:39:02,040
Speaker 1: There's there's some interesting things in the own total that

1885
01:39:02,439 --> 01:39:05,320
Speaker 1: the Northeast there's only three point seven percent, in the

1886
01:39:05,439 --> 01:39:08,400
Speaker 1: West only one nine, and then in the Midwest and

1887
01:39:08,439 --> 01:39:11,839
Speaker 1: the South fifteen and sixteen cent or practically so interesting

1888
01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:13,879
Speaker 1: that if you were combined the South and the Midwest,

1889
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:19,280
Speaker 1: that's that's roughly, you know of of a thirty percent number.

1890
01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:22,839
Speaker 1: A huge portion of that was I was really surprised

1891
01:39:22,840 --> 01:39:24,680
Speaker 1: by that sort of dichotomy in the Midwest that you

1892
01:39:24,760 --> 01:39:27,720
Speaker 1: have this really large number of people owning land the

1893
01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:29,919
Speaker 1: large a lot of the owned lands in the Midwest,

1894
01:39:30,360 --> 01:39:32,360
Speaker 1: but very little the least lands in the Midwest. And

1895
01:39:32,439 --> 01:39:34,720
Speaker 1: that came down to those sort of I think those

1896
01:39:34,800 --> 01:39:38,960
Speaker 1: policies up in those states. Um, but then you think

1897
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:42,519
Speaker 1: those policies are pretty neat. But then if it's encouraging

1898
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:48,040
Speaker 1: people to own land, might this also be encouraging fragmentation

1899
01:39:48,120 --> 01:39:51,120
Speaker 1: of those two thousand acre properties into three acre properties.

1900
01:39:51,120 --> 01:39:53,240
Speaker 1: Because if if you if you only need, if you

1901
01:39:53,240 --> 01:39:55,080
Speaker 1: can only af forward or only need three hundred acres

1902
01:39:55,120 --> 01:39:57,679
Speaker 1: for your hunting end of splitting up land into smaller

1903
01:39:57,680 --> 01:40:00,280
Speaker 1: and smaller chunks, that might be all right, but in

1904
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:03,400
Speaker 1: the end you're probably gonna have more human impact the

1905
01:40:03,520 --> 01:40:08,880
Speaker 1: more fragments you take sixty acres and breaking up a

1906
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:11,880
Speaker 1: bunch of forty acre parcels you I mean, you have

1907
01:40:12,120 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 1: you go from it's obvious and you go from one

1908
01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:16,879
Speaker 1: contiguous management to a bunch of different types of management

1909
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:19,400
Speaker 1: that we all as hunch as we all know you

1910
01:40:19,600 --> 01:40:23,080
Speaker 1: like if you buy back forty is it's about your neighbors, man.

1911
01:40:23,560 --> 01:40:25,160
Speaker 1: You gotta have good neighbors. If they're over there on

1912
01:40:25,240 --> 01:40:27,439
Speaker 1: opening day just shooting every year that walks, you're not

1913
01:40:27,479 --> 01:40:30,479
Speaker 1: gonna have the best experience on your forty and the

1914
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:32,439
Speaker 1: impact of fencing. You know, there's been some really interesting

1915
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:36,519
Speaker 1: things that my colleagues, justin Dr Justin Bushchairs is working

1916
01:40:36,560 --> 01:40:38,760
Speaker 1: on up at the Hopland Research Station up north. They

1917
01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:41,639
Speaker 1: here and they're looking at fences. They have GPS colors

1918
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:43,960
Speaker 1: on deer and there's they're noticing that some deer, even

1919
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:46,120
Speaker 1: though it's just a barb wire fence, a standard you know,

1920
01:40:46,439 --> 01:40:50,000
Speaker 1: three or four five strand bar wire fans, these these

1921
01:40:50,080 --> 01:40:53,320
Speaker 1: deer will just walk and it will affect their home range.

1922
01:40:53,320 --> 01:40:55,040
Speaker 1: When you look at their home range and where they're going,

1923
01:40:55,600 --> 01:40:57,680
Speaker 1: there is a solid border where they just don't really

1924
01:40:57,720 --> 01:40:59,840
Speaker 1: want to cross this fence. It's not that much energy

1925
01:40:59,880 --> 01:41:01,880
Speaker 1: to get over it, but maybe it's on the edge

1926
01:41:02,400 --> 01:41:04,479
Speaker 1: and they don't go. So it does create these even

1927
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:07,479
Speaker 1: standard bob wire fences that deer have generally no problem

1928
01:41:07,520 --> 01:41:10,400
Speaker 1: getting over, do impact some of their movement and you

1929
01:41:10,439 --> 01:41:14,080
Speaker 1: start looking at large migrations. Cross number ten fences versus

1930
01:41:14,120 --> 01:41:16,760
Speaker 1: one is a big deal. Yeah, to travel back to

1931
01:41:16,880 --> 01:41:19,080
Speaker 1: Texas for a moment, there's a lot of high fences there.

1932
01:41:19,200 --> 01:41:21,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well that's a whole another thing. It's like

1933
01:41:21,160 --> 01:41:23,360
Speaker 1: what does that do to wild Yeah, that's just that.

1934
01:41:23,720 --> 01:41:25,360
Speaker 1: That's I don't want to get into that. I just

1935
01:41:25,520 --> 01:41:28,519
Speaker 1: want to get into that. But this is all you know,

1936
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:30,000
Speaker 1: well I did look into that, but this is kind

1937
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:31,519
Speaker 1: of interesting to look at. Yeah, because I was thinking,

1938
01:41:31,560 --> 01:41:32,600
Speaker 1: I was like, well, what does this mean for it?

1939
01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:34,400
Speaker 1: Is there gonna be inbreeding because of this, Like if

1940
01:41:34,439 --> 01:41:37,400
Speaker 1: you have these fragmented populations, like I called some of

1941
01:41:37,400 --> 01:41:39,879
Speaker 1: those folks the biologies out there in Texas Parks and Wildlife,

1942
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:42,000
Speaker 1: and they said, you know, there's no such thing as

1943
01:41:42,000 --> 01:41:44,760
Speaker 1: a deer proof fence. And if you have just one

1944
01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:48,040
Speaker 1: deer get through every year or every couple of years

1945
01:41:48,120 --> 01:41:51,519
Speaker 1: or something some very small rate which they expected, they

1946
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:54,160
Speaker 1: did not expect to have genetic impacts to these animals.

1947
01:41:54,240 --> 01:41:58,840
Speaker 1: So that was interesting to me. I think, um, certainly

1948
01:41:58,920 --> 01:42:01,080
Speaker 1: it does seem artificial all to have, you know, this

1949
01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:03,519
Speaker 1: sort of completely broken off system. And it said that

1950
01:42:03,560 --> 01:42:06,439
Speaker 1: to me, I'd be like, yeah, but that's I mean, yeah,

1951
01:42:06,520 --> 01:42:09,479
Speaker 1: but you're still changing the whole city. Maybe one or

1952
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:12,639
Speaker 1: two get through, but maybe they don't. I mean, you're

1953
01:42:12,680 --> 01:42:17,240
Speaker 1: you're certainly leaving that open to happenstance. Yeah. Yeah, man.

1954
01:42:17,439 --> 01:42:19,680
Speaker 1: The other thing here, as you were saying, this may

1955
01:42:19,760 --> 01:42:22,000
Speaker 1: not be as impactful as I thought it was when

1956
01:42:22,040 --> 01:42:24,960
Speaker 1: first reading it. But fishing, I mean there's thirty four

1957
01:42:25,040 --> 01:42:30,120
Speaker 1: million lease and owned total acres U thirty five million

1958
01:42:30,200 --> 01:42:33,560
Speaker 1: for hunting and then for for wildlife watching, which is

1959
01:42:33,680 --> 01:42:38,560
Speaker 1: the third one umt million, And so hunting is a

1960
01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:42,200
Speaker 1: giant chunk of the data you could pop. Yeah, in

1961
01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:44,519
Speaker 1: terms of the area, it's it's it's dominant. I mean

1962
01:42:44,560 --> 01:42:47,600
Speaker 1: compared to wildlife and fishing. Wildlife watching and fishing. Like

1963
01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:49,320
Speaker 1: we said, just for fishing, you just need to get

1964
01:42:49,320 --> 01:42:51,800
Speaker 1: access to the stream. Yeah, so it's not Yeah, yeah,

1965
01:42:52,120 --> 01:42:53,960
Speaker 1: you buy a cabin on a stream access and you

1966
01:42:54,240 --> 01:42:57,479
Speaker 1: got it. When I first read that up, like yeah, hunting, fishing, no,

1967
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:02,880
Speaker 1: you can be down or not. My excited um and

1968
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:05,040
Speaker 1: then the while I like watching too. You can do

1969
01:43:05,120 --> 01:43:06,439
Speaker 1: it on a pretty small A lot of people like

1970
01:43:06,479 --> 01:43:08,840
Speaker 1: to bird watch. You know, you're gonna see your deer

1971
01:43:08,880 --> 01:43:11,120
Speaker 1: and your you get get five ten anchars. You probably

1972
01:43:11,120 --> 01:43:12,680
Speaker 1: you deer coming through your property if they're deer in

1973
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:15,160
Speaker 1: the area. Yeah, Well, I mean I think all this

1974
01:43:15,360 --> 01:43:17,400
Speaker 1: you know. What strikes me about this is time you spent,

1975
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:21,760
Speaker 1: you know, in cold rooms looking at ridiculous amounts of data.

1976
01:43:22,280 --> 01:43:24,040
Speaker 1: I think some people can can look at this. We've

1977
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:27,800
Speaker 1: done some other um things where we just looked at

1978
01:43:27,800 --> 01:43:30,600
Speaker 1: studies where people have questioned, well, what sample side like,

1979
01:43:31,479 --> 01:43:34,679
Speaker 1: there's that there surely is that those are critical parts

1980
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:36,439
Speaker 1: of this. But the other part of this is what

1981
01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:39,680
Speaker 1: you what you've learned and doing the work to put

1982
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:43,000
Speaker 1: this together. You know, you've you've been closer and closer

1983
01:43:43,040 --> 01:43:46,720
Speaker 1: proximity to this data than maybe anyone, and you've been

1984
01:43:46,760 --> 01:43:49,759
Speaker 1: able to just have this is like the empirical knowledge

1985
01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:53,519
Speaker 1: of of spending that time, whether you want to break

1986
01:43:53,560 --> 01:43:58,400
Speaker 1: down exactly the sample sizes and how accurate here or there.

1987
01:43:59,160 --> 01:44:02,160
Speaker 1: I feel there's value. There's just really intrinsic value and

1988
01:44:02,240 --> 01:44:05,320
Speaker 1: the fact that you spent the time to really analyze

1989
01:44:05,360 --> 01:44:08,200
Speaker 1: these things and and go deep. So I appreciate that

1990
01:44:08,280 --> 01:44:09,800
Speaker 1: and I think it's I think it's valuable for that

1991
01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:11,920
Speaker 1: reason in and of itself. Well, we report all our

1992
01:44:11,960 --> 01:44:14,320
Speaker 1: standard errors so you can see you can see the uncertainty,

1993
01:44:14,479 --> 01:44:16,599
Speaker 1: and there are there is uncertainty essocially with all these numbers,

1994
01:44:16,600 --> 01:44:19,800
Speaker 1: and they're all reported so um. But the you know,

1995
01:44:20,120 --> 01:44:23,120
Speaker 1: one thing before we wrap up of what I see

1996
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:25,280
Speaker 1: is some opportunities. You know. I think we look at

1997
01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:26,880
Speaker 1: these data and we see some of the big numbers,

1998
01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:29,760
Speaker 1: and I think in the West it is interesting. The

1999
01:44:29,880 --> 01:44:33,400
Speaker 1: West is clearly a lot of public land. California, which

2000
01:44:33,439 --> 01:44:35,880
Speaker 1: people might not think of as really a big public

2001
01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:40,120
Speaker 1: land state is half public land. Um. I think there's

2002
01:44:40,400 --> 01:44:42,920
Speaker 1: there is this sort of that dichotomy that we were

2003
01:44:42,920 --> 01:44:46,080
Speaker 1: talking about. There's a sort of culture whereas like the

2004
01:44:46,160 --> 01:44:47,920
Speaker 1: hunters go out in the public land and the private

2005
01:44:48,000 --> 01:44:51,679
Speaker 1: land is not. I even see it among our there's

2006
01:44:51,720 --> 01:44:57,040
Speaker 1: a culture that suggests that private landers should not charge

2007
01:44:57,479 --> 01:45:00,920
Speaker 1: money for access because we're in a public lands. Hunting

2008
01:45:01,080 --> 01:45:05,519
Speaker 1: is a public resource. Game is a public resource, and

2009
01:45:05,680 --> 01:45:10,320
Speaker 1: I I again I find myself feeling like it limits

2010
01:45:10,400 --> 01:45:12,840
Speaker 1: us if we if we come to our landowners, so

2011
01:45:12,960 --> 01:45:16,680
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be charging money. A lander's gonna say, well,

2012
01:45:16,680 --> 01:45:19,719
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let anybody on, and so that's a loose,

2013
01:45:19,800 --> 01:45:23,880
Speaker 1: that's a lose, that's a lot of lack of access entirely. Um.

2014
01:45:24,680 --> 01:45:26,840
Speaker 1: Even if this lander says I'm only going to sell

2015
01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:30,880
Speaker 1: dollar trophy, elk huts that's all I'm gonna do. And yeah,

2016
01:45:31,760 --> 01:45:33,200
Speaker 1: that to a lot of us that that is out

2017
01:45:33,240 --> 01:45:35,400
Speaker 1: of that is out of my reach. Um as a

2018
01:45:35,920 --> 01:45:38,639
Speaker 1: as a faculty at you see Berkeley, that's that's totally

2019
01:45:38,680 --> 01:45:42,519
Speaker 1: out of reach. But I don't know if it's that nice.

2020
01:45:43,720 --> 01:45:46,760
Speaker 1: But at the same time, at twenty acre hunt, at

2021
01:45:47,520 --> 01:45:50,880
Speaker 1: dollar hunt is a hunt for somebody? Is that better

2022
01:45:50,960 --> 01:45:54,400
Speaker 1: than a zero hunt? That than hunt for nobody? And

2023
01:45:54,680 --> 01:45:57,559
Speaker 1: a landowner who's probably gonna just do everything he can

2024
01:45:57,680 --> 01:46:00,559
Speaker 1: to get rid of those elk because he has no benefits.

2025
01:46:00,640 --> 01:46:03,800
Speaker 1: They're grazing his pastors there on his irrigated pastor. He

2026
01:46:03,880 --> 01:46:07,880
Speaker 1: has no benefit for them. He's angry at the wildlife agencies,

2027
01:46:08,120 --> 01:46:10,960
Speaker 1: he's angry at hunters. He hates the whole system and

2028
01:46:11,240 --> 01:46:14,680
Speaker 1: and everybody's mad probably hates the government, hates regulations. That's

2029
01:46:14,800 --> 01:46:19,439
Speaker 1: generally versus versus is a zero or is it? Is

2030
01:46:19,479 --> 01:46:22,160
Speaker 1: it an acceptable thing to have ian? And isn't that

2031
01:46:22,240 --> 01:46:25,840
Speaker 1: person paine for a hunt? Aren't they a hunter too?

2032
01:46:26,600 --> 01:46:28,479
Speaker 1: I mean they are. There are certainly people who have

2033
01:46:29,439 --> 01:46:33,000
Speaker 1: a lot of financial resources, but maybe they're also somebody

2034
01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:34,960
Speaker 1: who just saved up for ten years. And he said,

2035
01:46:34,960 --> 01:46:36,840
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this. There's a lot of that, and

2036
01:46:36,960 --> 01:46:39,639
Speaker 1: and you're right, and I think I came, I came

2037
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:42,920
Speaker 1: to this place. I came to Berkeley's especially to challenge

2038
01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:45,679
Speaker 1: my own perspectives on things. And I think that's that's

2039
01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:47,760
Speaker 1: what you just said. There is a very important thing

2040
01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:52,560
Speaker 1: too for all hunters, especially those of us who celebrate

2041
01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:56,280
Speaker 1: access in public lands. So much is to understand, like

2042
01:46:56,400 --> 01:47:01,200
Speaker 1: what's the proper cultural like stificates of each thing, what's

2043
01:47:01,240 --> 01:47:05,000
Speaker 1: the proper mix in our our our culture just shared ideas.

2044
01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:07,960
Speaker 1: How do we make sure that we were holding up

2045
01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:12,559
Speaker 1: the things that are important but understanding the there are

2046
01:47:12,600 --> 01:47:15,479
Speaker 1: other things that also contribute, and how do we balance

2047
01:47:15,560 --> 01:47:17,280
Speaker 1: those things in a way that makes sense. How do

2048
01:47:17,360 --> 01:47:20,240
Speaker 1: we not over emphasize public lands and how we talk

2049
01:47:20,320 --> 01:47:22,240
Speaker 1: and how we communicate to each other in our community,

2050
01:47:22,280 --> 01:47:25,800
Speaker 1: how do we emphasize each type of land use, each

2051
01:47:25,920 --> 01:47:29,160
Speaker 1: type of land ownership, and and how do we just

2052
01:47:29,280 --> 01:47:31,360
Speaker 1: make sure that we understand all those things together? And

2053
01:47:31,400 --> 01:47:34,639
Speaker 1: the big ridiculous tapestry that this is. Like I said earlier,

2054
01:47:34,680 --> 01:47:36,640
Speaker 1: you can't talk about these things in a monolith. There

2055
01:47:36,720 --> 01:47:40,240
Speaker 1: isn't public lands and private lands. There are just it's impossible,

2056
01:47:40,720 --> 01:47:43,439
Speaker 1: But I came here to kind of like I want

2057
01:47:43,479 --> 01:47:46,800
Speaker 1: to highlight that. I want to make sure everybody understands that, well,

2058
01:47:47,040 --> 01:47:50,519
Speaker 1: I public lands. There is American to me, is is

2059
01:47:50,560 --> 01:47:53,400
Speaker 1: apple pie. I don't really like apple pie, but people

2060
01:47:53,439 --> 01:47:58,280
Speaker 1: seem to like it. That's fine. But but there's also

2061
01:47:58,360 --> 01:48:01,120
Speaker 1: I also understand the need for balance and the need

2062
01:48:01,200 --> 01:48:03,760
Speaker 1: to examine every type of land use and every type

2063
01:48:03,760 --> 01:48:06,439
Speaker 1: of land. Yeah, and so hopefully folks can do that

2064
01:48:06,720 --> 01:48:10,880
Speaker 1: and increase opportunities and build relationships and increase these coalitions

2065
01:48:10,920 --> 01:48:13,000
Speaker 1: where we have common ground. And I think ranchers are

2066
01:48:13,920 --> 01:48:18,320
Speaker 1: solidly in the side of maintaining these landscapes, which is

2067
01:48:18,400 --> 01:48:20,880
Speaker 1: the saying solidly where hunters are too. And I think

2068
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:24,200
Speaker 1: these sort of wedge issues that drive us apart, when

2069
01:48:24,240 --> 01:48:26,800
Speaker 1: we really at the at the core, we can get

2070
01:48:27,000 --> 01:48:29,000
Speaker 1: get past those sort of things that are dividing us.

2071
01:48:29,880 --> 01:48:32,320
Speaker 1: We can probably make a lot more progress. And I

2072
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:35,160
Speaker 1: will tell you that I've had I have I often

2073
01:48:35,360 --> 01:48:37,439
Speaker 1: say things I like and don't like on this podcast.

2074
01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:39,479
Speaker 1: I don't really like apple pie. I just want to

2075
01:48:39,520 --> 01:48:41,800
Speaker 1: put that out there for everybody. So if you think

2076
01:48:41,880 --> 01:48:47,120
Speaker 1: that's weird, deal with more of a cheesecake family that brownies, brownies, cheesecakes.

2077
01:48:49,320 --> 01:48:51,800
Speaker 1: I'm not really not really there depending on the type

2078
01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:54,200
Speaker 1: of filling right, it could be. But also I don't

2079
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:58,040
Speaker 1: like peas, and and I had I've had a lot

2080
01:48:58,120 --> 01:49:00,479
Speaker 1: of people who are like pea farmers be like, well,

2081
01:49:00,520 --> 01:49:04,320
Speaker 1: come and hunt my pea farm. There's deer walking around everywhere. Um,

2082
01:49:05,040 --> 01:49:07,200
Speaker 1: so maybe I'll do that. I'm trying to trying to

2083
01:49:07,280 --> 01:49:09,760
Speaker 1: balance my perspective to get a little nuance into it.

2084
01:49:10,200 --> 01:49:12,600
Speaker 1: But anyway, apple pie, if you put ice cream on it,

2085
01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:17,240
Speaker 1: it's fine, Like it's just fine, but it's just okay.

2086
01:49:17,320 --> 01:49:21,479
Speaker 1: It's not great. And bald eagles also, they're okay, not great.

2087
01:49:21,560 --> 01:49:24,240
Speaker 1: They're okay, they're not great. Have you been around them?

2088
01:49:24,280 --> 01:49:26,720
Speaker 1: They're like go to you know, go to Prince of

2089
01:49:26,800 --> 01:49:29,439
Speaker 1: Wales and Alaska and they're like buzzards flying around. You're

2090
01:49:29,479 --> 01:49:32,840
Speaker 1: not real great. Um. I don't know why. I don't

2091
01:49:32,880 --> 01:49:34,400
Speaker 1: know why I did that. What a horrible place to

2092
01:49:34,439 --> 01:49:37,559
Speaker 1: be go watch a bunch of buzzard like eagles flying

2093
01:49:37,600 --> 01:49:40,719
Speaker 1: over your head. Yeah, the wild turkeys better than the eagle,

2094
01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:42,840
Speaker 1: I feel, because I just want to put that all

2095
01:49:42,880 --> 01:49:45,080
Speaker 1: out there. But I don't know where I was going

2096
01:49:45,160 --> 01:49:47,080
Speaker 1: with any of that other than to say that I

2097
01:49:47,160 --> 01:49:51,120
Speaker 1: think hopefully people can listen to this and really think

2098
01:49:51,120 --> 01:49:54,640
Speaker 1: about you know, as we as as hunters, we have

2099
01:49:54,800 --> 01:49:58,080
Speaker 1: different opportunities, right, different opportunities to go interest and use

2100
01:49:58,120 --> 01:50:01,280
Speaker 1: different types of land, to have different types of ownership.

2101
01:50:01,360 --> 01:50:03,880
Speaker 1: Some we all own together, some we don't, Some we

2102
01:50:03,960 --> 01:50:06,400
Speaker 1: have to pay to get access to. Some no one

2103
01:50:06,479 --> 01:50:08,519
Speaker 1: couldn't get access to because someone bought it for their

2104
01:50:08,560 --> 01:50:11,439
Speaker 1: own for their own reasons. So I just understand all

2105
01:50:11,479 --> 01:50:14,160
Speaker 1: those things, and I'll make sure everybody has access to

2106
01:50:14,240 --> 01:50:16,560
Speaker 1: this paper because, um, there's a lot of numbers and

2107
01:50:16,560 --> 01:50:19,040
Speaker 1: a lot of words, but there's a lot of really

2108
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:23,200
Speaker 1: um impactful stuff. It's good information. It shows the impact

2109
01:50:23,240 --> 01:50:25,760
Speaker 1: of the hunting community from an angle that generally has

2110
01:50:26,080 --> 01:50:27,960
Speaker 1: been thought of as a black box where people didn't

2111
01:50:28,000 --> 01:50:30,519
Speaker 1: know how much fun are we talking about nationwide? Um,

2112
01:50:31,320 --> 01:50:33,439
Speaker 1: And we've got some We've put together the best data

2113
01:50:33,479 --> 01:50:35,160
Speaker 1: sets we can to get the best numbers we can

2114
01:50:35,240 --> 01:50:38,240
Speaker 1: on that and uh, and I look forward to doing

2115
01:50:38,280 --> 01:50:40,560
Speaker 1: an update with what we're doing. We're carrying on with

2116
01:50:40,640 --> 01:50:43,320
Speaker 1: this work and seeing how policies now are impacting this stuff.

2117
01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:46,559
Speaker 1: So I'm looking forward. So when's that policy working. It's ongoing.

2118
01:50:46,600 --> 01:50:48,080
Speaker 1: You see this map on my screen right here. I

2119
01:50:48,160 --> 01:50:52,639
Speaker 1: got several I started the giant screen. I love big screens.

2120
01:50:52,680 --> 01:50:55,400
Speaker 1: You know. Once I met a lawyer who said he

2121
01:50:55,439 --> 01:50:56,960
Speaker 1: had a really great pen, and he said, you know,

2122
01:50:57,840 --> 01:50:59,479
Speaker 1: I'm a lawyer, so I have a really nice This

2123
01:50:59,600 --> 01:51:02,080
Speaker 1: is the tool of my trades. It depends. So I

2124
01:51:02,160 --> 01:51:03,840
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, I work on the computer all

2125
01:51:03,880 --> 01:51:06,840
Speaker 1: day and this is this is a tool of my trade. Um,

2126
01:51:07,400 --> 01:51:09,920
Speaker 1: let's see where is the might if I get to

2127
01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:12,400
Speaker 1: screen that big and make me look smarter? Yeah, there

2128
01:51:12,439 --> 01:51:14,720
Speaker 1: you go. That's another good reason. So we're we're looking

2129
01:51:14,720 --> 01:51:16,920
Speaker 1: at all these different programs and seeing how we're gonna

2130
01:51:16,920 --> 01:51:20,000
Speaker 1: be presenting this um in Bozeman, and we're going to

2131
01:51:20,080 --> 01:51:21,960
Speaker 1: do it work. This is a draft working paper for

2132
01:51:22,040 --> 01:51:26,120
Speaker 1: Bozeman Perk, the conference they're holding in July I think

2133
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:30,000
Speaker 1: nine or so, and we'll be talking about how these

2134
01:51:30,040 --> 01:51:34,160
Speaker 1: different policies interact. So covering everything from public access programs,

2135
01:51:34,200 --> 01:51:37,000
Speaker 1: is a lot of mentorship and hunting programs that we're covering.

2136
01:51:37,400 --> 01:51:40,519
Speaker 1: We're gonna see like we're about at this point where

2137
01:51:40,600 --> 01:51:42,200
Speaker 1: the cusp of being able to pull all these big

2138
01:51:42,280 --> 01:51:44,599
Speaker 1: data sets together and seeing what is what is interacting

2139
01:51:44,640 --> 01:51:47,960
Speaker 1: between these different programs. Are our states with good public

2140
01:51:48,000 --> 01:51:52,160
Speaker 1: access programs for private land also doing cast share programs,

2141
01:51:52,200 --> 01:51:56,880
Speaker 1: so they also doing property tax exemptions for conservation. Um. Yeah,

2142
01:51:56,960 --> 01:52:00,280
Speaker 1: like what are the unintended consequences? Y? And and how

2143
01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:03,280
Speaker 1: do they interact and what um. One of my undergraduates

2144
01:52:03,520 --> 01:52:05,240
Speaker 1: mentioned she had studied and I was like, well, what's

2145
01:52:05,280 --> 01:52:07,120
Speaker 1: the what do you think is happening here? Says, well,

2146
01:52:07,160 --> 01:52:08,880
Speaker 1: it seems like it sort of reminds me of this

2147
01:52:09,000 --> 01:52:13,560
Speaker 1: class I've read this stuff about she called it. I

2148
01:52:13,640 --> 01:52:16,720
Speaker 1: want to look up federalism. There is different types of federalism,

2149
01:52:17,439 --> 01:52:23,160
Speaker 1: compensatory federalism and versus cooperative federalism and iterative federalism. And

2150
01:52:23,200 --> 01:52:25,880
Speaker 1: the idea was that states and sometimes in our system,

2151
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:28,639
Speaker 1: they can really take the role, take on a lead

2152
01:52:28,680 --> 01:52:30,320
Speaker 1: on something when that they see a gap from the

2153
01:52:30,360 --> 01:52:33,280
Speaker 1: federal government happening, and so then the federal government might

2154
01:52:33,320 --> 01:52:35,679
Speaker 1: take lead from some of the states they're doing something innovative.

2155
01:52:35,760 --> 01:52:38,880
Speaker 1: So we found some really interesting programs like Indiana's got

2156
01:52:38,960 --> 01:52:43,680
Speaker 1: this program called Apple which it combines public access, habitat

2157
01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:47,000
Speaker 1: and cast share. I think it combines all these things together.

2158
01:52:47,680 --> 01:52:50,439
Speaker 1: It seems really innovative. I mean, we're going to highlight

2159
01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:51,880
Speaker 1: a few of these in this talk, in this paper.

2160
01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:54,200
Speaker 1: They'll come out for perk this working paper, and then

2161
01:52:54,720 --> 01:52:58,080
Speaker 1: we're hoping to present over at the with Congressional Sportsman's

2162
01:52:58,080 --> 01:53:01,240
Speaker 1: Foundation coming up in November. So look forward to giving

2163
01:53:01,280 --> 01:53:03,320
Speaker 1: an update. And you're coming to both and I'll come

2164
01:53:03,400 --> 01:53:05,400
Speaker 1: and uh, I'll come and cheer you on if you'll

2165
01:53:05,439 --> 01:53:06,920
Speaker 1: get a coffee might Yeah, I am I allowed to

2166
01:53:07,000 --> 01:53:10,800
Speaker 1: cheer if why you're please do that's that's the best. Yeah,

2167
01:53:10,920 --> 01:53:16,200
Speaker 1: I'll be like your hype man. Yeah. Federalism, yeah, bring

2168
01:53:16,280 --> 01:53:19,680
Speaker 1: it all right, Look well I appreciate it. I'm off

2169
01:53:19,760 --> 01:53:22,639
Speaker 1: now to go find a vegan and an animal rights

2170
01:53:22,920 --> 01:53:25,440
Speaker 1: I look forward to hearing that. That's gonna be those podcasts.

2171
01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:28,000
Speaker 1: It's gonna be fun. Um. But all like I said,

2172
01:53:28,080 --> 01:53:30,840
Speaker 1: this is as much to me like to to find

2173
01:53:30,880 --> 01:53:33,560
Speaker 1: ways to challenge my ideas on on land. This is

2174
01:53:33,600 --> 01:53:35,760
Speaker 1: it in the same way as I'll hope those folks

2175
01:53:35,800 --> 01:53:38,400
Speaker 1: can challenge me on some of my thinks that things

2176
01:53:38,439 --> 01:53:40,800
Speaker 1: of killing and eating. I look forward to hearing about it. Yeah,

2177
01:53:40,840 --> 01:53:42,800
Speaker 1: all right, thanks, thank you, thank you, take care. Thanks.

2178
01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:50,679
Speaker 1: I guess I grew up. That's it. That's all another

2179
01:53:50,720 --> 01:53:53,280
Speaker 1: episode of the Hunting Collectives in the Books. Thank you

2180
01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:55,880
Speaker 1: to Luke McCallie. Thank you to our little round table

2181
01:53:55,960 --> 01:53:59,280
Speaker 1: there in the beginning, including Steven Ronella, Mark Kenyan, Sam

2182
01:53:59,360 --> 01:54:02,840
Speaker 1: Longer and and Fill the Engineer Um. Great conversation. I

2183
01:54:02,880 --> 01:54:04,599
Speaker 1: don't want to get into a bunch of sales pitches

2184
01:54:04,640 --> 01:54:05,840
Speaker 1: at the end of the show here this week, and

2185
01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:09,120
Speaker 1: we're not going to have any listener feedback. I just

2186
01:54:09,200 --> 01:54:12,600
Speaker 1: want to address this issue because we I know this

2187
01:54:12,800 --> 01:54:15,559
Speaker 1: this podcast isn't going to solve some of the angst

2188
01:54:15,640 --> 01:54:19,080
Speaker 1: out there about public lands and the public land movement

2189
01:54:19,200 --> 01:54:21,720
Speaker 1: and the identity of the Western hunter and some of

2190
01:54:21,760 --> 01:54:25,479
Speaker 1: the Midwest and the East feeling a little angst and

2191
01:54:25,600 --> 01:54:29,200
Speaker 1: anger towards some of the focus uh in our community

2192
01:54:29,240 --> 01:54:31,679
Speaker 1: and our culture on these things. But what I will

2193
01:54:31,720 --> 01:54:33,520
Speaker 1: say is that you know, it would be it would

2194
01:54:33,520 --> 01:54:36,560
Speaker 1: it definitely be our ruination if we allow this the

2195
01:54:36,720 --> 01:54:41,320
Speaker 1: kind of sever the bonds that that both public lands

2196
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:45,280
Speaker 1: and private lands bring to our community. So for those

2197
01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:47,080
Speaker 1: of you that that are in listen to this, and

2198
01:54:47,200 --> 01:54:49,360
Speaker 1: you're in North Carolina, or you're in Maryland, or you're

2199
01:54:49,400 --> 01:54:51,839
Speaker 1: in Florida, or you're in Georgia, or you're in South Carolina,

2200
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:54,760
Speaker 1: or you're in Iowa. You're one of these states where

2201
01:54:54,840 --> 01:54:57,360
Speaker 1: you feel like maybe a little bit left out of

2202
01:54:57,400 --> 01:55:00,560
Speaker 1: the conversation. Maybe the conversation has changed since you came

2203
01:55:00,560 --> 01:55:03,920
Speaker 1: into hunting. UM. Maybe the energy is in places where

2204
01:55:03,960 --> 01:55:08,400
Speaker 1: you don't reside. UM one right in and let us

2205
01:55:08,480 --> 01:55:11,040
Speaker 1: know that, and we'll have these conversations. We'll have both

2206
01:55:11,080 --> 01:55:13,880
Speaker 1: the difficult conversations where we agree and disagree, and we

2207
01:55:13,920 --> 01:55:16,800
Speaker 1: will have conversation about how we get better. And that's

2208
01:55:16,840 --> 01:55:19,520
Speaker 1: why I went and talk to Luke McCauley and wanted

2209
01:55:19,520 --> 01:55:21,839
Speaker 1: to learn more about what leasing in private land ownership

2210
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:28,480
Speaker 1: really means to economically, socially, conservation wise for our country.

2211
01:55:28,840 --> 01:55:32,320
Speaker 1: And UH was pleasantly surprised to find a very educated

2212
01:55:33,000 --> 01:55:36,160
Speaker 1: professor that was sitting in a very unlikely place talking

2213
01:55:36,200 --> 01:55:38,680
Speaker 1: about something that means a lot to me. So as

2214
01:55:38,720 --> 01:55:40,680
Speaker 1: a way to kind of bring this all together, I

2215
01:55:40,720 --> 01:55:45,160
Speaker 1: would just say, certainly, while public lands are trendy, we

2216
01:55:45,240 --> 01:55:49,160
Speaker 1: gotta watch out in our in our world UM four

2217
01:55:49,280 --> 01:55:52,080
Speaker 1: trends and where they're headed and make sure they're always

2218
01:55:52,120 --> 01:55:55,280
Speaker 1: on the right course. As we do with anything else,

2219
01:55:55,680 --> 01:55:58,080
Speaker 1: So thank you for listening, or take you out with

2220
01:55:58,160 --> 01:56:00,960
Speaker 1: old number seven and we'll see next week on the

2221
01:56:01,040 --> 01:56:05,920
Speaker 1: Hunting Club. Dennisee who whiskey got me drinking in Heaven?

2222
01:56:06,080 --> 01:56:09,640
Speaker 1: And I know I can't stay here too long because

2223
01:56:09,720 --> 01:56:15,440
Speaker 1: I can't go a week without doing run oh without

2224
01:56:16,000 --> 01:56:25,960
Speaker 1: and run drinking out and run wrong drinking in Heaven