WEBVTT - The Case for Cancel Culture 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.480 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to okay f Daily with 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:19.880 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Bunker. You know, folks, 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:24.720 it's been a day or so since the testimony of 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:30.520 Miss Lady Ruby and her daughter sha Moss, and I 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:36.360 have to tell you that it has been kind of 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:41.239 marinating in my soul, the pain that we heard in 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:46.800 those women's voices, the trauma that Donald Trump, as President 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:55.680 of the United States lauded over them. I can't imagine 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.440 that we are living through a time where a president 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.680 of the United States uses his bully pulpit and his 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:09.240 power to target civilians. And I don't think that we 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:14.759 are wrapping our minds around the precedent that Donald Trump 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.480 has set and up until this point, right, all we 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.720 are doing right now is hearing about the criminal behavior. 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.320 It is not being prosecuted right It is being laid 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.680 out in an evidentiary fashion for the world to see. 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.600 But I don't think that we are really grasping that 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.480 if Donald Trump is not held accountable for the crimes 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:42.399 that he's committed, not only against Miss Lady Ruby and 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:47.560 her daughter Shae Moss, against Raffensberger, against you know, all 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:51.000 of us as citizens of these United States until we 0:01:51.160 --> 0:02:00.440 understand the consequences of turning into I don't know, let's 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:05.200 say hungry. You know, Fox News's new favorite satellite place 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:09.320 to have Tucker Carlson air his shows from. Let's think 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:13.359 about other areas like, oh, I don't know, Russia, there 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.959 are other other places that they love to broadcast from. 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.760 What it means to have a president be able to 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:25.040 wield that type of power and against citizens and have 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:29.440 no consequences. What does the future look like? You know, 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:33.919 you always hear about the right wanting to talk about 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:38.280 free speech as a way to weaponize their language and 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:44.320 their language of violence against marginalized people. Well, I don't 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:48.640 foresee having the ability to have significant freedom of speech 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:53.280 when you can be targeted killed because the president of 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.680 the United States doesn't like what you say and decides 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.720 then to make you a target. And people can say, well, oh, 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.920 Donald Trump didn't actually say go and storm the capital. No, 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:09.440 he just said everything else, but that Donald Trump by 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.880 virtue of putting a target on Lady Ruby and her 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:19.360 daughter basically said how dare you? How dare you decide 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:24.960 to volunteer for your community to be an elector during 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.840 a time of a pandemic, How dare you? Because the 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.600 only people that can be trusted are the criminals that 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:35.120 he surrounds himself with, making an example of people like 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.880 the two of those women, so that others that think 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.800 to themselves, maybe I too would like to volunteer, will 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:46.400 think twice and so that instead you have what people 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.440 like the Proud Boys and the oath Keepers and other 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:53.360 white supremacist with their AAR fifteen standing at our poll places. 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.400 Is that what the future of America looks like? Well, 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:02.160 it is, frankly and less once and for all we 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.440 rid ourselves, not only of Donald Trump, but of Trump 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:09.880 is a you know, I keep listening to reporters interview 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:15.640 Republicans and as if they're like normal people with just 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:20.719 a conservative ideology. These are people that believe the big lie, 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.080 that are part of the cult right, that believe that 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.320 Donald Trump did no wrong, should not have any accountability, 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.839 and that this is the future of our democracy. That 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.000 you can just cry foul because you don't have policies 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.839 or a platform that align with the majority of people, 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.440 and so if the people choose not to elect you, 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.000 then you can just throw up your hands and say, oh, 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:49.159 this is fraudulent. It's not. Your platform is bogus, So 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:54.520 it is to me. You know, you would think that 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.400 there would be more than two Republicans that would actually 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:00.120 stand up. You would think that as Mike Pence his 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.720 own life was threatened, that he would throw his full 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:07.560 weight behind our democracy. But he's a tepid piece of 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:12.440 shit right, just like the rest of them. But I 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.719 just want us to really understand that if not for 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:22.640 the handful of people, brave people who decided to not 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:25.680 go along with the President of the United States's scheme 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.880 to defraud the American people, we would be in a 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.880 completely different place right now. Now. I'm not going to 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.159 say that the place that we're in is great, because 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:38.240 it's sure as fuck as not. But imagine what would 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:42.640 have happened if Mike Pence had decided that he was 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.880 going to go along with Donald Trump, that he was 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:50.600 going to decertify the election for Biden and just institute 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:55.880 Donald Trump as president. Remember, we had already had a 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.159 six to three Supreme Court. So if you think back 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.280 to two thousen and who actually decided that election, it 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.080 was not the American people, it was the Supreme Court. 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:09.400 Donald Trump was thinking ahead. The things that I think 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.400 that are missing in terms of these hearings that are 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.800 taking place right now is the fact that this was 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.000 not something that was cooked up in November. It wasn't 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.440 cooked up in December. It was fucking cooked up well 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:27.120 before the first ballot was even cast. Go back to 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:30.720 the first utterances of Donald Trump saying that the only 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:32.760 way that he's going to lose this election is if 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:37.000 it's stolen. Go back to that. That is when Donald 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.679 Trump began to devise the plan to defraud the American people. 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:46.240 And now we look, we look at actually the human 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:52.000 cost of that ill faded plan. And I say ill 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.520 faded because it didn't succeed this time, but without prosecution 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.400 by the Department of Justice, it will succeed the next time, 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:06.560 you know. Coming up next my conversation with the author 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:11.040 of the book The Case for Cancel Culture, Ernest Owens, 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.400 and Ernest and I will get into what I think 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.480 is a really important conversation where he believes that cancel 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.440 culture is used as a democratic tool by the oppressed 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:26.000 to hold those that have power right the privilege of 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:30.920 whiteness to be able to skirt the law. So what 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:35.880 else is left for people to do we unpack this, 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:40.160 and I ask him questions about, you know, how is 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.960 the useful way to cancel somebody, And he's just like, well, 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.320 if you're Elon Musk, if you're Donald Trump, and you've 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:51.480 been able to live above the law, exists in the clouds. 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.200 The only way to get rid of somebody like you 0:07:55.560 --> 0:08:00.440 is to use the power of our social consciousness and say, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.920 this person has a scarlet letter. That hasn't been done 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:10.840 enough with Donald Trump. And I don't think that we 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:17.400 will see even a crack in the Maga dome until 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:21.559 and unless this Department of Justice goes after not only 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:26.320 Donald Trump, but every single person around Donald Trump and 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:31.680 takes them down. We continue to say each and every 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.079 week on this show that democracy hangs in the balance. 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:40.240 I can't express to you enough that fact. We're seeing 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:44.480 Supreme Court cases file one by one, not even chip 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:49.000 away right, not even claw away, but hack away at 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.200 our constitution, at the separation between church and state. Because 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.320 guess what new case by the Supreme Court. Guess where 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.400 your tax dollars are going to find religious schools? Because 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.600 the core of the Republican Party has always wanted to 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.840 defund public education. Well, So now, if state money needs 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.880 to go to religious institutions that you decide to send 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.920 your kids to as opposed to the public schools, who 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:16.080 do you think is going to be affected? Friends, Each 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:21.800 and every day becomes darker here. And the mustard seed 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.600 of light and hope that we are holding onto is 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.440 that while Merrick Garland is often the fucking Ukraine, that 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.439 he's still paying attention to what is happening in this country. 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.600 And I say that not because we don't want to 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.480 support Ukraine, but if I have to make a dischoice 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:44.120 between their democracy or hours, I want Hours protected first, 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:48.040 because there's no way to protect other countries if America falls. 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.200 That's just the reality. We saw it at the beginning 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.120 of the Trump administration when he was pulling out of 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:03.880 global agreements and task for send groups. So if America 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:09.520 is no longer a democracy and we leave a vacuum, 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:14.240 what do you think moves into place? So coming up next, friends, 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.079 the author of the book The Case for Cancel Culture, 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:24.640 Ernest Owens, and our conversation about how we use cancel 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:29.720 culture as a way to regain power that has been lost. 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:35.280 It's no secret that the news is horsepill hard to swallow. Thankfully, 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:39.240 there's The Bituation Room podcast hosted by comedian and commentator 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:43.160 Francesca free Erntini for a lighter take on the heavy stuff. 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:47.079 Each week, The Bituation Room brings you progressive comedians, experts, 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.200 and activists to break down the issues in a way 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.960 that won't just leave you crying under a weighted blanket. 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.720 Get The Bituation Room on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:03.440 streaming on YouTube and Twitch. Get a behind the scenes 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.600 look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:09.440 an original podcast from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.880 Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.360 notable guests and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.520 they use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrification to 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.640 gun laws and take a closer look at how and 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.400 why these topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.080 The Daily Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.479 Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:36.200 every Tuesday. Folks, I am very happy to welcome to 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:41.119 woka F for the very first time, Award winning journalists 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:45.040 Ernest Owens, whose upcoming book the case for cancel culture, 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:50.439 how this democratic tool works to liberate us. All join Ernest. 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.600 It is great to have you on wokea f Cancel 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.800 culture is a word, a phrase that has been thrown around. 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.320 My God, I don't know, probably in my recollection the 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:05.520 beginning of the Trump administration. There was literally just a 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.400 piece this week in I want to say, It's New 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:14.520 York magazine talking about how cancel culture is detrimental to 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.679 high school students and what it means and how it's devastating. 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.720 So I want to hear from you. Why is cancel 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.720 culture in your opinion, a good thing? Well, thank you 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.400 for having me on. I think for starters, I think 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.680 a lot of people have used council culture in the 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:36.240 wrong way. The term. I think that for some people, 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.720 those who are privileged and have power, it's a dog 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:44.760 whistle to divorce themselves from accountability, and that what has 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.000 happened is is that you know, in my book, I 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.440 talk a lot about the history of council culture, Like 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.200 before it was council culture, it was political correctness. Before 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.240 its political correctness, it was well before it was we 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.040 got after political correctness, it was call out culture, and 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.040 it's been all of these other terms. But if we 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.680 actually look at who's been using those terms and when 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:08.680 do they come into play, it's often by those with power. 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.600 It's often those who are are privileged in some type 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.199 of way, and it's often used as a way to 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:18.120 try to deflect attention from those who've been afflicted, those 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.599 who are marginalized. And so I think that if we 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.800 if we actually look at what counsel culture is actually 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.000 doing and what people are trying to accuse it of, 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.160 we find that those who are being accused of counseling 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.720 people often those who've been afflicted, who have been done 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.960 in a wrong way, who's been abused, and other things, 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.679 and that it's actually the device that is used by 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:47.880 the oppressed to actually act out in ways that the system, 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:52.760 the justice system, other systems couldnot address, you know. So 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:54.440 I think that in that way, if we look at 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:59.560 counsel culture as a tool by the marginalized to address 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.800 things the powerful was done to them, that is in 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:06.520 itself a good thing. So let me ask you this, 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.360 you know, because one of the I guess one of 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:15.080 the most problematic sides of cancel culture has been are 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.440 we learning anything those people right? When we talk about 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:21.680 accountability because I talk about accountability a lot on WIKA app, 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:26.400 particularly holding white sis hetero men who are often in 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.920 power accountable for their wrongdoing, whether it is sexual harassment, 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.680 whether it's you know, undermining our democracy, criminal behavior in 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:40.640 any so fashion. Is there a learning that happens or 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:46.080 is it just a fear? So I won't say this thing, 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.320 but I still believe this thing, like is there an 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:55.880 ability to learn from bad behavior if people are just canceled? Like, 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.240 is there any is there any redemption? I guess is 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.680 the question or is it to have a larger conversation 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:07.800 about the wrongdoing. I think that this has been going on, 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.320 like for starters. I want to be clear, cancel culture 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:12.920 is not a new phenomenon. You know, this is around 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:16.080 for the beginning of time. And so when we say 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:20.560 people are canceled, are people really canceled? Right? Are people 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.680 actually forever forbidden? And in those cases where we're asking 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.280 that question about redemption and things, that's a larger conversation 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.080 about the justice systems that be and society within. I 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.560 think it's up to the individual who was in that 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:39.800 situation if they should But I think oftentimes I'm very 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:44.600 worried about considering what's for the offender rather than considering 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:49.040 those who have been afflicted. Because that story that you're 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.720 talking about that's in the cut from New York magazine. Yeah, 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.880 time and my opinion victim blaming. It's been a lot 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.720 of time trying to empathize with those who do wrong, 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.840 and what we forget in these conversations that while we're 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.320 quick to jump into, you know, well, what about the 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.960 consequences that person did that thing, we do ignore the 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:15.160 conversation on accountability. I think that from accountability, if these 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.640 things are done in the order to which they are, 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:22.560 learning can come from those things. Resolution can come from 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.520 those things. But because we're in society that is so 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:31.360 scared right to hold people actually accountable, we oftentimes are 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.320 answering asking questions that could be answered if we actually 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.600 went through the process. So I think, you know, actually, 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:42.040 did you know, call people out, did address these issues? 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.800 If people acknowledge their wrongdoing, if people actually face whatever 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:50.040 consequences they were in those in that process, learning is 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.600 happening there right. People are understanding what they did wrong 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.120 and why they did it right. I think there's a 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.320 lot that can be learned in the process within the self. 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.360 You know. One of the things that had pissed me 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.359 off at the beginning of the Trump administration and m 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:11.320 was hearing people his Trump is his maga. People say 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.280 that they love Donald Trump because he just tells it 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:18.240 like it is. There's no political correctness, there's no whatever. 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.080 He's just going to be as misogynistic, as ableist, as 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.840 you know, racist, as all of these things, and to them, 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:31.280 that's authenticity. What is your pushback to that? Because there 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.720 has been what I feel like, is this progression or 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:41.800 actually regression to just vitriol, nastiness and couching that as 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.880 being authentic, right, And it's not. But that's what that's 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.280 what the right has co opted. If you're if the 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.520 if if we want to say that the political left 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:56.520 is supposedly about inclusion, right, then the political right is 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:00.800 has made their case for exclusion. So they're gonna they're like, 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:05.640 we don't have to use people's pronouns, we don't have 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.720 to you know, speak kindly to other people, because that's 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.240 not I'm not going to be forced to political correctness, right, 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:15.960 So what is your pushback to that? Well, for starters, 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:21.520 I think that those levels of luxuries that of ruteness. Right, 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:23.760 there's a luxury that that is a privilege. There's a 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.520 privilege to be condescending and rude in that type of way. 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.760 And that's a luxury to the powerful, right because they 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.400 don't have to have the same moral code or consequences 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.520 everything people do. One of the things that I talk 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:39.840 about in my book is that I argue that everyday 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.920 people don't get canceled. That if you say, for example, 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.879 something racist at your job and you lose your job, 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.000 you weren't canceled. You were held accountable to the code 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.520 of conduct that you agreed to when you signed that contract, right, 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.080 And I think that's what we're missing here, is that 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.760 powerful people, super rich people, the Harvey Wine seems of 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.919 the old. Those individuals are the ones that oftentimes can 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:07.280 make the rules and break the rules and behaving frits 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.880 and have all the power, right, so they're not held 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.879 to the same standards and laws and rules that the 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.480 rest of us do. So that is why people have 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:20.280 to arguably cancel them, because there is no other way 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.399 to hold them accountable. And so what we've seen is 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.760 that the most powerful, most privileged individuals, right, white cis 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.720 had men, These real big Republicans on the right that 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.199 have all this political influence is that they try to 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.240 make it seem like we're all on the same playing field, 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.879 that what they're doing anyone else can do. But we 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:41.760 see that other people do what they do, they don't 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:45.160 get the same types of privileges and consequences. See if 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.320 if I or a group of white people you know, 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:51.520 just aside to go to their burger king because they 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:53.639 didn't like the hiring of a boss or the promotion 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:55.960 of a new boss, and they went to that burger 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:57.800 king and tore it down and had an insurrection at 0:19:57.800 --> 0:19:59.960 burger king, they would all be immediate going the JETL 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:06.119 versus a former president inciting and now debating whether or 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.080 not criminal charges we filed, those are not the same. 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.400 Those are not the same situations. And so I want 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.560 to explain to people that to me, council culture is 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:20.800 about a power dynamic shift. It's about those who can't 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.760 be held accountable in any other way other than a 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.560 collective force of action that caused them out. People are 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:31.119 not creating social media campaigns to call out folks that 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.439 no one don't know or don't hold any power. And 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:36.720 yet the problem is is that a lot of times 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.760 white people and their white guilt makes them seem like 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.280 there's a target on their back, when in reality, the 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.000 target is on anyone with powers back. And so in 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.600 some cases that do mean white sis head men like Trump, 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:49.920 and in some cases it can mean a comedian like 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:53.160 Dave Chappelle, who is one of the richest, most well 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.480 known comedians in the in the planet. Like that is 0:20:57.480 --> 0:20:59.760 what people have to understand. It's a real power dynamic. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:04.240 Race do influence, its gender influences, its sex orientation influences, 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:06.919 but it's really about power. And I think a lot 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:09.679 of people want to believe that they have equal amounts 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:12.520 of power to those of Trump, but that's just not true. 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:17.679 You know, we watch at least I was watching the 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:22.680 fourth installment of the of the Insurrection hearings, right and 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:27.280 just you know, for the example, listening to um, you know, 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:31.520 miss Lady Ruby and her daughter Shame Moss, two black 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:35.760 women who were targeted by the President of the United 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:40.800 States and literally have lost their name, have lost their businesses, 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.320 have lost their so have lost their ability to live 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:48.200 free from violence, right, whether that be verbal or physical. 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:52.240 And as I was watching that hearing and I'm saying 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.439 to myself, the President of the United States used his 0:21:55.600 --> 0:22:00.480 platform to target citizens who were doing nothing other than 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.720 their civic duty right to help out their county, Fulton 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.159 County and Georgia in the midst of a pandemic. And 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.920 I said to myself, why didn't we at that time 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.840 have a conversation about power, right and the abuses of power? 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:17.719 Because to your point, you're absolutely right. I think that 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:20.600 when we are having conversations about cancel culture, those of 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:23.080 us that are using it as a tool right to 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:27.040 hold people accountable, I think that we're not couching that 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.000 conversation in power. We're always talking about it. We're coming 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:34.639 from the defense as opposed to let me talk about 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:39.080 it where you're from, where you're situating your book. You 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:42.280 know the case for cancel culture to say no, no, no, 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:45.720 Like if we're talking about an Elon Musk, if you're 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.960 talking about a Donald Trump, you're talking about multi billionaires 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:55.520 and multimillionaires that literally can buy and sell whomever whatever 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:58.440 they want, right, and they are seen as like a 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:02.960 product in that way, there is no other choice but 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:06.479 to deny these people the oxygen in the room. So 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:11.920 Donald Trump being canceled from Twitter. Was was a safety mechanism, right, 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:14.840 It was about taking back what little power? So, how 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:18.040 do you think, Ernest, that we how do you think 0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:21.439 that we shift these conversations? How do we how do 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:28.439 we reclaim the purpose of actually holding power accountable? Because powered, 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.159 because I have been I've been tweeting this for the 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:33.960 past week. White men are never gonna hold white men 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:36.359 in power. Ain't gonna hold white men in power accountable. 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:39.600 That is not who the systems were created for. Right, 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:44.480 And so how do you think that we reclaim this 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:48.359 tool and talk about it from a space that actually 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.560 has it expressed as what it is, which is a 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:54.680 reclamation of power that has always been absent from those 0:23:54.720 --> 0:24:00.480 that are oppressed? How would they read my book like 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:05.720 like I wrote this book because I've been in those experiences. 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:09.600 I've covered them in my journalism career, and they've always 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:12.560 shown up and manifested in different ways. Until your point, 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:17.520 It is about number one, telling everybody one take a breath, 0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:23.840 Calm down. Everyday people, everyday working class people. We're not 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:28.080 the target of counseling. We're not the ones that are 0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:33.680 canceling each other having an argument, having a disagreement, having 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:37.480 a difference of opinion is not counseling. We need to 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.399 look at who is. Always tell people that when you 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:43.760 see the most powerful people on the left and the 0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:48.920 right agreeing over an issue together, that means that they 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:52.280 want the rest of us not to pay attention. When 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:56.000 you can see Andrew Cuomo saying they come on, and 0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:59.840 when you can see Donald Trump, you know, banning counseling, 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:02.960 talking about counsel culture. Why do what do these people 0:25:03.000 --> 0:25:06.720 have in common? They all have power, they all have privilege. 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:10.119 And sometimes what we've done is we've let counsel culture 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:13.960 become a political issue of left versus right. It's not 0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:16.359 a blue issue, it's not a red issue. This is 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:19.280 a bipartisan issue with the powerful people have agreed that 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:24.879 they don't like black power, they don't like counsel culture. 0:25:25.440 --> 0:25:27.879 Let's take the word. Let's say let's let's take counsel 0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:31.280 culture out and say accountability. I bet you for every 0:25:31.359 --> 0:25:34.240 situation where these people have yelled that they don't like 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:38.000 counsel culture, replace the world with accountability and it's the 0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:42.040 same effect. And who are they doubling down on women, 0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:47.359 black and brown people, queer people, trans people, poor people. 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:50.359 It's something to be said that there's a David and 0:25:50.400 --> 0:25:54.600 Golia of dynamic here. And I want everyday people to 0:25:54.640 --> 0:25:59.320 recognize that counsel culture is a tool that scares the 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:03.280 powerful people into submission to be more accountable in ways 0:26:03.320 --> 0:26:07.879 they were not. My book talks about how before everyday 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:10.680 people get to the point of counseling, there's a thousand 0:26:10.720 --> 0:26:13.280 things we do before things go from zero to one hundred, 0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:17.840 and no one ever acknowledges that that there was conversations, 0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:21.880