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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who

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Speaker 1: Did Cool Stuff. You're a weekly reminder that when there's

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Speaker 1: bad things happening, there's people trying to do good things.

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Speaker 1: I am your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and this week I

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Speaker 1: am talking to one of those people who has done

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Speaker 1: I believe a good thing because I like interviewing historians,

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Speaker 1: and this week I'm interviewing a historian. I am interviewing

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Speaker 1: Molly Crabapple.

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Speaker 2: Hi. How are you, hey, Magpie? How you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm good. I realize I'm about to do to you

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Speaker 1: something that people do to me all the time, which

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Speaker 1: is remember the gist of the title of the thing

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about. All the time, people

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Speaker 1: are like, I love your podcast, Cool people who are

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Speaker 1: cool or whatever. Okay, Molly is holding up the book

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Speaker 1: so I can remember. Molly is the author of the

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Speaker 1: upcoming book here where we Live is Our Country, the

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Speaker 1: Story of the Jewish Bund. That's right, And when does

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Speaker 1: that book come out?

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Speaker 2: This book, my precious book Baby, that I worked seven

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Speaker 2: years on, comes out on April seventh.

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Speaker 1: This is really exciting to me. For full disclosure, I'm

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Speaker 1: about a third of the way through this book. It's

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Speaker 1: a longer and very complete book than I had anticipated

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Speaker 1: when I planned my scheduling poorly.

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Speaker 2: It is thick enough to satisfy any lady.

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Speaker 1: It is. Tolkien would be proud of the length of

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Speaker 1: this book. I am actually not try to scare people

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Speaker 1: off if it's incredibly readable, and that is one of

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Speaker 1: the main things that I really appreciate about it, is

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Speaker 1: that it doesn't skimp on actual historical detail. But you

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Speaker 1: managed to kind of actually follow narratives, like multiple narratives

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Speaker 1: through this story. And I want to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about that. But first, well, what's the Jewish labor Bund?

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Speaker 1: And also can I rudely read your single paragraph in

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Speaker 1: which you describe it to you?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Please? Yes, please. I love having other people read

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Speaker 2: my words.

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Speaker 1: Okay, because I was like, I should have you read this,

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Speaker 1: and it's like whatever, I'm not going to like send

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Speaker 1: you your own text and tell you to read it.

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Speaker 1: This is from the Introduction. Founded in eighteen ninety seven

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Speaker 1: in the city of Vilna in the Russian Empire and

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Speaker 1: reaching its height in Interwar Poland, the Bound was a

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Speaker 1: sometimes clandestine political party whose tenants were humane, socialist, secular,

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Speaker 1: and defiantly Jewish Bundist fought the Czar, battled pogroms, exalted

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Speaker 1: the Yiddish language, and built vast networks of political and

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Speaker 1: cultural institutions out of little more than love and grit.

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Speaker 1: Seeking to liberate Jews from the poverty and violence of

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Speaker 1: interwar Poland, they raised their children on the radical ethos

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Speaker 1: of working class solidarity and subaltern pride. Ultimately, these youth

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Speaker 1: helped lead the Warsaw Ghetto Revolt. Though the Bound was

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Speaker 1: largely obliterated by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, the

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Speaker 1: group's opposition to Zionism better explained its absence from current consciousness.

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Speaker 1: Though the Bound celebrated Eastern European Jews as a people,

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Speaker 1: they irreconcilably opposed the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.

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Speaker 1: The diaspora was home. The Bond argued, Jews could never

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Speaker 1: escape their problems by the dispossession of others. Instead, Bundis

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Speaker 1: created the doctrine of dukite or hearness. Jews had the

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Speaker 1: right to live in freedom and dignity wherever it was

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Speaker 1: they stood. They would fight for a better and more

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Speaker 1: beautiful world, even alongside people they had been raised to

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Speaker 1: see His enemies. Thank you, Yeah, thank you. As soon

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Speaker 1: as I read the introduction, I was like, oh, you like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've actually published your writing before. I published

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Speaker 1: Molly's writing in a book I edited about the occupy protests,

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Speaker 1: a book I totally know the name of my own book.

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Speaker 1: We are many reflections on the I don't remember the

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Speaker 1: subtitle of my own book from twenty twelve, but I

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Speaker 1: knew you were a decent writer. But as soon as

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Speaker 1: I read the introduction, I was like, oh, you like

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Speaker 1: know how to take an idea and get across what's

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Speaker 1: interesting and present it clearly.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. No, I mean I also rewrote this book.

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Speaker 2: I want to say ten to fifteen times. I cut

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Speaker 2: four hundred pages from it. I read it all aloud

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Speaker 2: to my poor, long suffering partner Fred, who delivered me

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Speaker 2: coffee before this interview. So I feel like every sentence

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Speaker 2: in this book is like bled over and cried over,

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Speaker 2: and so I think it's the best writing I've ever done.

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Speaker 1: That's fair. I don't want to talk trash on my

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Speaker 1: own book from fourteen years ago, but yes, this stands out. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So this is the boond right, The Booned is this

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Speaker 1: organization of well, it's a working class organization, but it's

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Speaker 1: not just working class people, but it's people fighting for

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Speaker 1: the working class, and it's like socialist organization that started

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Speaker 1: in Eastern Europe. Like, yeah, I don't know, how would

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Speaker 1: you describe it? I know how you described it because

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Speaker 1: I had just read a paragraph of it.

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Speaker 2: Bit So the boond was founded in eighteen ninety seven

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Speaker 2: in the Czarist Empire, which was probably the crappiest place

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Speaker 2: on earth to be a Jew at that time. If

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Speaker 2: you were a Jewish subject of the Czar, you suffered

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Speaker 2: in a variety of ways. And the first was that

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Speaker 2: you were a subject of an autocracy that was so

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Speaker 2: inbred that their blood no longer clotted. You were the

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Speaker 2: subject of an autocracy that sent people to Siberia for

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Speaker 2: having book clubs, so you just jew, not you whatever.

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Speaker 2: You had no political freedom under the Czar. Also, the

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Speaker 2: Czar's Empire was really poor and economically backwards and mismanaged,

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Speaker 2: so if you were a Jewish worker there, you were

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Speaker 2: way poorer than you would have bet if you were

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Speaker 2: a worker let's say in Germany or France or Western Europe,

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Speaker 2: because everyone was poorer. But that goes for all subjects

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Speaker 2: of the Zar. But also if you were a Jew,

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Speaker 2: you were a racialized minority. You had Jew on your passport.

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Speaker 2: You were only allowed to live in this like impoverished

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Speaker 2: swath of land in the Western provinces that was called

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Speaker 2: the pale of settlement. You couldn't go to university outside

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Speaker 2: of a quota, you couldn't live in all these other places.

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Speaker 2: You needed an internal passport to travel. You were subject

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Speaker 2: to military conscription for twenty five years. And in addition

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Speaker 2: to all of this official persecution, when the state decides

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Speaker 2: to target a minority, that always, as we know, opens

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Speaker 2: the door to freelance violence by jackasses, and so you

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Speaker 2: were also subject to a lot of bigotry and mob violence.

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Speaker 2: And out of this condition, this group of young Jewish

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Speaker 2: Marxist troublemakers came upon an interesting analysis, which was that

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Speaker 2: Jews and the Tsarist Empire suffered both as workers and

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Speaker 2: as Jews as an ethnic group and a class, and

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Speaker 2: so they needed a special organization to fight for their rights.

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Speaker 2: The Bund was formed both to overthrow the Czar and

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Speaker 2: to bring democratic socialism to Russia, but also to fight

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Speaker 2: for the liberation of the Jewish people inside Russia. To

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Speaker 2: fight for their dignity, their safety, and their right to

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Speaker 2: flourish in this land where they had lived for a

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Speaker 2: thousand years. But the boond also was a group of

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Speaker 2: young universalists who wanted to fight alongside you know, they're Russian, Polish,

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Speaker 2: Ukrainian worker brothers for what they call the better and

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Speaker 2: more beautiful world.

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Speaker 1: I think this is actually one of my favorite things

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Speaker 1: that you talk about in this book, because it's this

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Speaker 1: is a book about the boond, and it's a book

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Speaker 1: that's about more than the boond, Like, it's a book

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Speaker 1: that talks about a really pivotal period in world history

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Speaker 1: when all of the leftist ideas, socialist ideas, et cetera

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Speaker 1: that we currently have in or suffer with, these ideas

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Speaker 1: were developed during this time. And you by talking about

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Speaker 1: the internal discussions within Jews in the palest Settlement and

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Speaker 1: we'll get to that in a second, you're able to

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Speaker 1: like address these issues in a really grounded way as

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Speaker 1: particularly interested. Yeah, in this conversation that you you have

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Speaker 1: where there's this conversation between nationalism and internationalism happening at

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Speaker 1: the time, And one of the things that I struggle with.

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Speaker 1: Listeners of the show know that every now and then

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Speaker 1: there's these topics that keep coming up again and again

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Speaker 1: when you talk about nineteenth century leftists that are really

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Speaker 1: embarrassing and complicating, hard to talk about, but like need

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Speaker 1: to be addressed directly because words have different meanings at

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Speaker 1: different periods of time, and one of those, like the

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Speaker 1: example I always use is eugenics and the fact that

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Speaker 1: like leftists were into eugenics, which is absolutely terrible, but

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Speaker 1: like just is what it was. And nationalism is another one,

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Speaker 1: right where like the modern left in a lot of

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Speaker 1: ways and a lot of modern socialism comes out of

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Speaker 1: these European nationalist movements against these various empires. But also

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Speaker 1: internationalism developed really immediately thereafter, and I think the Bone

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Speaker 1: does this really interesting idea where they're saying, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're Jews and we need to organize as Jews, but

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Speaker 1: we're also internationalists. So this is like not actually even

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Speaker 1: about separatism as much as like, well you compare it

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Speaker 1: to intersectionality, like as a term that was developed one

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Speaker 1: hundred years later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, they believed in something which ought to

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Speaker 2: be a pretty basic concept but unfortunately is forever under siege,

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Speaker 2: which is that they've believed in multiracial, multi ethnic democracy.

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Speaker 2: These were people who came out of these like vast

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Speaker 2: but highly oppressive, but multi ethnic empires, like there are

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Speaker 2: so many different types of people who live in the

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Speaker 2: Russian Empire, right, And they saw that if you decided

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Speaker 2: to take a big empire like the Russian Empire and

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Speaker 2: break it up into different ethno states for like Poles

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Speaker 2: and Latvians, Lithuanians and Finns and you know, and Totters

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Speaker 2: and everyone else, that there aren't actually any contiguous pieces

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Speaker 2: of land where if you draw a neat line around it,

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Speaker 2: everyone is, let's say Polish. And so by the creation

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Speaker 2: of a new independent state, you're creating new minorities and

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Speaker 2: new oppressed groups who are instead going to demand their

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Speaker 2: own independence and so on and so on, which is

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Speaker 2: exactly what happened if you know anything about like the

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Speaker 2: Eastern European border wars of the twentieth century. And so

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Speaker 2: they were like, how about we do something else. How

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Speaker 2: about instead we create a society where everyone who already

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Speaker 2: lives there gets to stay living there, and instead you're

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Speaker 2: able to have your own cultural institutions, your own ability

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Speaker 2: to vote, your own ability to have representation in court,

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Speaker 2: in your own language. You're funded to, Yeah, like create

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Speaker 2: like theater, troops and libraries and schools in your own language.

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Speaker 2: No one's language or culture is superior.

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Speaker 1: Or it's not a similationist it's not, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, but we also do not have to fight bloody

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Speaker 2: border wars to try to create homelands for increasingly small

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Speaker 2: groups of people. Yeah, it's a very sensible idea.

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Speaker 1: Actually, No, it is so interesting because one of the

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Speaker 1: things that immediately struck me about this book and just

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Speaker 1: kind of this time period, that it's so okay, it's

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Speaker 1: really relevant today. And one of the reasons it's relevant

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Speaker 1: today is because the question of Zionism brings up a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions around who gets to live where, whether

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Speaker 1: anyone gets an ethno state. I think everyone listening to

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Speaker 1: this knows that I'm anti Zionist. I wouldn't have a

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Speaker 1: guest on who isn't anti Zionist. But specifically, the fact

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Speaker 1: that this thing that you're describing is such a like

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Speaker 1: no shit idea, or it would have been twenty years

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Speaker 1: ago and now we have to fight for it again. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's the booned and the idea of political Zionism

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Speaker 1: would developed the same year, one year away from each other.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember the same year like, so this is

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Speaker 2: one of the great ironies of history. At the same

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Speaker 2: time as our small band of frequently arrested young troublemakers

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Speaker 2: is meeting in the attic of a dilapidated safehouse in

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Speaker 2: Villina to form the Jewish Labor booned, the World Zionist

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Speaker 2: Congress is meeting at a grand and ritzy casino in Basil, Switzerland,

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Speaker 2: and the elegant Theodore Hertzel is becoming an international superstar

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Speaker 2: the exact same year.

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Speaker 1: And he had been an assimilationist before that.

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Speaker 2: He wanted all Jews to convert to Christianity. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he was really assimilationist. And then what happened was he

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Speaker 2: saw the Dreyfus Trial. And the Dreyfus Trial was when sophisticated, civilized,

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Speaker 2: enlightened France decided to blame their myriad military failures on

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Speaker 2: a totally assimilated Jewish army captain named Alfred Dreyfus, accuse

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Speaker 2: him on obviously false charges of spying, and ship him

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Speaker 2: off to Devil's Island. And then after that, the enlightened, sophisticated,

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Speaker 2: civilized Frenchman did a bunch of anti Jewish riots, right,

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Speaker 2: And so when Hertzel saw this, he was like, wow,

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Speaker 2: assimilation sure doesn't work. And he's like, maybe Europeans will

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Speaker 2: just always want to kill us. Maybe this is how

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Speaker 2: they are. And he's like, fuck, if that's how they are,

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Speaker 2: we better have a state to go to. Now all

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Speaker 2: of this, I can't say that I am unsympathetic to

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Speaker 2: this line of thinking.

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Speaker 1: Right, Like, it's logical to look at Europeans and be like,

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Speaker 1: they mostly just kill everyone. That is a lie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a pretty racist Like maybe this is their culture.

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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, totally. Who are we to say that

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Speaker 1: they can't be racist? It's their culture?

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Speaker 2: No, Okay, up until here, I'm like, you know, I

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Speaker 2: mean it's pretty cynical, but I get where you're coming from. Theodore.

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Speaker 2: But then he's like, okay, so we need to make

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Speaker 2: our own state. We need to colonize some land and

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Speaker 2: expel the people that are there and create a Jewish

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Speaker 2: majority state. And at first he does not care where.

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Speaker 2: He is willing to try to colonize Uganda for instance. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but obviously, because of the Bible and Jewish religion, Palestine

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Speaker 2: is the place with the most emotional oomph And so

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Speaker 2: Theodore Hertzel will spend the next years of his life

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Speaker 2: trying to make deals with every corrupt scumbag and autocrat

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Speaker 2: to acquire land for Jewish colonization in Palestine. And he

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Speaker 2: has no real respect for the Arab Palestinian population, which

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Speaker 2: is the overwhelming majority of people there, and in fact,

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Speaker 2: in his diaries even writes about how they need to

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Speaker 2: be spirited across the border, essentially ethnically cleansed.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, spirited. It's like a Miyazaki film. It's

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Speaker 1: very polite.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah sure. And in the course of

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Speaker 2: his quest to get this land for Jewish colonization, he

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Speaker 2: is willing to work with some of the most anti

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Speaker 2: Semitic figures of the time. For instance, at one time

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Speaker 2: he tries to make a deal with Vitruslav von Plev,

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Speaker 2: who is the Russian Minister of the Interior, who is

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Speaker 2: widely considered to be responsible for one of the worst

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Speaker 2: pograms that has happened up until then. He tries to

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Speaker 2: cut this ludicrous deal where von Plev will convince the

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Speaker 2: Ottoman Sultan to led Hrzel to do colonization. If Hertzel

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Speaker 2: tells the Jewish labor boon to stop being revolutionaries, as

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Speaker 2: if anyone would listen to him.

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Speaker 1: I know, and like, win your fight against the Bond,

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Speaker 1: is what he's saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Get Jews to stop being revolutionaries against this

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Speaker 2: hemophiliac autocrat, and I'll help you do colonization.

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Speaker 1: Which is really funny because there is obviously the anti

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Speaker 1: Semitic stereotypes go in a lot of different directions. But

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Speaker 1: it's really interesting to me because I read a lot

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Speaker 1: of history and I hang out leftist circles that in

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Speaker 1: my mind, if I were to accidentally come up with

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Speaker 1: and read stereotypes about Jews, is that all y'all are socialists,

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Speaker 1: Like at the core of all three of the big communism, socialism,

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Speaker 1: and anarchism are Eastern European Jews. And you know, and

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Speaker 1: it's obviously funny because then there's the other stereotypes around

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Speaker 1: all of you all being capitalists. I hope I'm what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, all of you all. I hope I'm being

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Speaker 1: appropriately self mocking when I say I understand. And it's

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Speaker 1: just so interesting that it's like, obviously I don't know

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Speaker 1: when you're saying, like, oh, go convince the Jews to

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Speaker 1: stop being revolutionariesm Like, good fucking luck, Like yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe the czar could have convinced the Jews to

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Speaker 2: stop being revolutionaries if he stopped stamping on their face

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Speaker 2: over and over again. Maybe that might have done something right.

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Speaker 1: But the good news about that particular story, if you

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Speaker 1: read another twenty pages or so into the book, is

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Speaker 1: that the guy the interior of the minister, who would

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Speaker 1: also kind of not personally led the programs but allowed

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Speaker 1: and encouraged programs, seems to be the inference. Yeah, are

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Speaker 1: you sure got blowed up?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a member of the socialist revolutionary battle squad through

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Speaker 2: bomb Adams.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Which is like the nice part about reading Turn

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Speaker 1: of the century Russian bad people stuff is that like

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Speaker 1: most of them get shot or blowed up.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, there's like a unfortunately so.

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Speaker 1: Do most of the people who do the organizing and

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Speaker 1: the blowing up. But you know, I mean that is.

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Speaker 2: The hard part about writing about early twentieth century Russian history.

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Speaker 2: It's like kind of like everyone gets shot and blown up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you're like three layers later of like

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Speaker 1: both the leaders of the revolutions and the leaders of

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Speaker 1: the repressive government as you're like, oh, and those people

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Speaker 1: killed those people, and then onward were like several generations

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Speaker 1: later and it's like three years yeah, yeah, which is

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Speaker 1: you know, sitting in my nice comfortable chair and being

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Speaker 1: like ha ha, they got theirs, And I'm like, that

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Speaker 1: was probably a really fucking intense and hard time to

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Speaker 1: live through. This is possibly the only history book I

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Speaker 1: have read or the author of the book discusses with

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Speaker 1: a bit of pride, how her great grandfather shot a

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Speaker 1: cop two perhaps possibly two, or was involved in Okay,

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Speaker 1: please go ahead.

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Speaker 2: Involved involved, all right. So, first of all, I want

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Speaker 2: to talk about my great grandfather, because my great grandfather

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Speaker 2: was my entry point to learning about the boond. My

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Speaker 2: great grandfather, Samuel Rothboord, was a painter. And while it

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Speaker 2: might seem pretty funny that someone is so interested in

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Speaker 2: their great grandfather because a long time away, for me,

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Speaker 2: the reason was that he taught my mother how to paint,

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Speaker 2: and my mom taught me how to paint, and so

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Speaker 2: I have always viewed the fact of me being an

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Speaker 2: artist as something that was passed down through him. I

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Speaker 2: grew up entirely surrounded by his paintings, by his sculptures.

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Speaker 2: By his sayings. He would like write things on pieces

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Speaker 2: of paper like reject spineless authority or without art, you're dead.

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Speaker 2: He's a king, right. And I discovered the booned because

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Speaker 2: he did this body of work that were called memory paintings.

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Speaker 2: And this was his attempt that he started in the

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Speaker 2: late thirties to paint into existence the world of his

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Speaker 2: steadle childhood, his childhood in this small pail of settlement

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Speaker 2: town called Volkfisk. And this was every aspect of life.

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Speaker 2: It was like sacred stuff, like the rabbi reading the Torah,

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Speaker 2: but it was also himself as a bad kid at

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Speaker 2: religious school, lighting his rabbi's shoes on fire when the

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Speaker 2: rabbi fell asleep, and then trying to like stage a

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Speaker 2: diy carnival where he was doing fire eating to impress

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Speaker 2: the little girls, and then spying on the ladies in

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Speaker 2: the bathhouse and then teaching the other kids how to smoke.

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Speaker 2: So that's the kind of kid he was, and the

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Speaker 2: kind of how do I put it, the kind of

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Speaker 2: sense of life that he had. And he had this

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Speaker 2: painting that I had been obsessed with, where it shows

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Speaker 2: a girl with little corseted waist and big old corseted hair,

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Speaker 2: and she's on some miserable dirt road next to some

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Speaker 2: wood shacks at twilight and she's throwing a rock through

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Speaker 2: a window and her boyfriend is next to her holding

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Speaker 2: more rocks. And it was titled in his handwriting itka

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Speaker 2: the Bundest breaking windows. And as you could imagine, this

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Speaker 2: is like catnip for me. I'm like, what's that? Who

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Speaker 2: is this girl in a corset breaking windows? This is

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Speaker 2: are you my sister? It got and so that was

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Speaker 2: sort of the defining spark. And I had always known

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Speaker 2: from my mother growing up that he was involved in

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Speaker 2: something that was called the underground, but I had no

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Speaker 2: idea what that meant. I also knew that he left

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Speaker 2: town because of trouble, but I had no idea what

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Speaker 2: trouble meant. And what I found in my research was

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Speaker 2: that as an exploited young leather worker in Volkavisk Sam

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Speaker 2: joined the boond to get better labor conditions, basically to

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Speaker 2: get some time off from work so we could breathe,

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Speaker 2: and embarked on this new life. He has this line

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Speaker 2: where he said that in the eighteen nineties the revolution

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Speaker 2: wave came and there was no Jew, no gooy, no God.

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Speaker 2: I threw off my humble Judaism and became a world brother.

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Speaker 2: And he basically reinvented himself in the same way that

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Speaker 2: all of these rebellious young people in all of these

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Speaker 2: small towns did. He started reading illicit literature. He got

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Speaker 2: involved in secret meetings in the woods with the red

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Speaker 2: flag being raised. He rejected like the very rigorous strictures

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Speaker 2: of religious Judaism. He got involved in prison breaks and

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Speaker 2: like liberating his comrades from jail. He smuggled pamphlets. He

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Speaker 2: got to know girls in a way that would have

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Speaker 2: been completely impossible right in a more conservative religious background.

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Speaker 2: Not just dating girls, but knowing girls is as equal

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Speaker 2: right as friends, as comrades.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, he's painting a girl throwing rocks while

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend provides the rocks exactly. You know, that's saying

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Speaker 1: something about how he sees people exactly.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, what an exciting time it must

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Speaker 2: have been to be like a nineteen year old who's

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Speaker 2: embarked on this project essentially to make the world new

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Speaker 2: and make yourself a new and make like your relations

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Speaker 2: with other people anew. And then I'm like well why

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Speaker 2: did he leave? Like what was it? And then I'm

390
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Speaker 2: reading this book that's called Self Defense as Emotional Experience,

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Speaker 2: The Making of Jewish Revolutionaries and the Pale of Settlement

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Speaker 2: by the scholar Innoshtotsker, and I'm reading all the footnotes

393
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Speaker 2: because I'm a fucking nerd. Yeah, and then I see

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Speaker 2: Volkovsk and the footnotes, I'm like, ooh, Volcovisc, some gossip

395
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 2: right about my great grandfather is going to come because

396
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Speaker 2: it was a small town. And I find this note

397
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Speaker 2: by a guy named Nuam Lvovich where he talks about

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Speaker 2: how in the end of nineteen oh three, the Jewish

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Speaker 2: self defense group, which was you know, the Jewish socialists,

400
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Speaker 2: small group, they are trying to defend an area of

401
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Speaker 2: the Volcovisk market from a pogram that is being led

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Speaker 2: by two cops, and they shoot the cops. And then

403
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Speaker 2: mister Levovich says that there were roundups of all the

404
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Speaker 2: Jewish socialists in town and anyone who could either skip

405
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: town or went to Siberia. Now, my great grandfather skipped

406
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Speaker 2: town and arrived in America in the early months of

407
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Speaker 2: nineteen oh four, and so I'm like, that's correlation. But

408
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 2: then my mother, who is also my great research assistant

409
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,719
Speaker 2: and mused in this, is going through some shoe boxes

410
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 2: and she's like, wely shit. I found this note and

411
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Speaker 2: it's from Grandpa Sam, and it says I was involved

412
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Speaker 2: in strikes, sabotage, and a shooting.

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Speaker 1: Well, what I'm involved in instead of actual revolutionary behavior

414
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 1: is pivoting to ads in the middle of history episodes

415
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: like these ones and we're back. Yeah. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that I really liked about this book and I

417
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Speaker 1: wanted to talk to you about is that you interweave

418
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Speaker 1: personal narrative into it. I have mixed feelings on a

419
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Speaker 1: whole about doing that. That's how I write. I can't not,

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Speaker 1: So that's like the main reason I do it is

421
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Speaker 1: that I can't not because I think in terms of like, oh,

422
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Speaker 1: this pattern looks like this pattern which reminds me of

423
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Speaker 1: this thing that I experienced or someone I know experienced,

424
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Speaker 1: or things like that. So you'll talk about, for example,

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Speaker 1: you know, people experiencing these moments of revolution and these

426
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Speaker 1: autonomous faces, or these refugees hanging out in you know, cafes,

427
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Speaker 1: and you'll talk about hanging out with Syrian refugees in

428
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Speaker 1: Turkey and all of these things. But the thing that

429
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Speaker 1: I really liked about it is that I think helps

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Speaker 1: underline why the past is relevant. And I was wondering,

431
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: if you wanted to talk about, you know, kind of

432
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: why this book now? Otherwise I could make up some

433
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 1: bullshit about why this book now because I find it

434
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: incredibly relevant. But I'm wondering, you know, kind of what

435
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: drew you to doing the more personal narrative, and then

436
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 1: also like, yeah, why this book now?

437
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 2: I think part of the reason I did the more

438
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 2: personal narrative is just my brain works the same as yours.

439
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 2: I don't come from an academic background at all. I

440
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: don't know the college the great.

441
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah same fuck yeah, yeah.

442
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I dropped out of Fashion Institute of Technology, so

443
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: that's where I come from it.

444
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I dropped out of art school.

445
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: Fuck yeah, see my sister. Yeah. And so I feel

446
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: like because of that, I don't have the same walls

447
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: that someone who, you know, was trained as an academic

448
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 2: historian would like. I see Trotsky entering the narrative with

449
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 2: a comment not a question, at a debate in like

450
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: an exile reading group, and I'm like, I know that, dude,

451
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 2: I know the comment not a question dude, right, uh huh.

452
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: I have one time where I'm describing this a horrific

453
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: leftist meeting that's taking back place in the back of

454
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: a Belgian wool cooperative that's infested with lice, and I

455
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: cannot but read these minutes and think of all of

456
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 2: the life that I have wasted at horrific leftist meetings

457
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 2: when I too just want to like flaw through the

458
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: walls and into the sunlight. Yeah, I mean, I see

459
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 2: so many things like on the left and moments of

460
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: rupture and moments of revolution and moments of mutual aid

461
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 2: where it just feels the same, and I feel like

462
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: I'd be a liar if I didn't say that I

463
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 2: would be trying to make some sort of wall to

464
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 2: confine the past safely to the past and the present

465
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: safely to the present. If I didn't talk about how

466
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: the mutual aid that the boond was doing for Jews

467
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 2: that were deported from Germany and trapped in this like

468
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: muddy field in Poland, it felt so much to me

469
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: like the mutual aid that anarchists were doing on the

470
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: Greek Isle of Lesbos when Rian red refugees showed up.

471
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: I don't think that they're actually different human impulses. I

472
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: just don't, so that's one reason I did it. I

473
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 2: also think that because the boond was an anti Zionist group,

474
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 2: and I'm jumping around a bit here, so we'll forgive me.

475
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 2: When it is studied by academics, there's this very real

476
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 2: pressure to try to confine it to the dusty, dead

477
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 2: past so that its ethical critique of Zionism and so

478
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: that its power doesn't unsettle the present. And I reject that.

479
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 2: I reject that, and I don't just want to academically

480
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: study emotions at conferences. I want to bring these people

481
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: back as an active necromancy so that we can learn

482
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: from our rebel ancestors and ghosts. And part of that

483
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 2: means that I don't segment off their lives and their

484
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: struggles from our own. I don't act like they're different species,

485
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: like their triceratops, you know, roaming a pre ice age Savannah.

486
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: They're not. There are grandparents, there are great grandparents. So

487
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 2: that's part of why I did that. And also I mean,

488
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: I just I just enjoy reading stuff like that more too.

489
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I decided to just like pursue my

490
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: pleasure in this. I started this book seven years ago.

491
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: I did not know that this book would be so

492
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: bleedingly relevant. I started this book before COVID, before the

493
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: Russian invasion of Ukraine, before the weaknesses and hypocrisies of

494
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party led to the US descent into fascism

495
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 2: that we now see, Before there were networks of concentration

496
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: camps for immigrants, and before Israel began a genocide in

497
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: Gaza that has now is spilling over most of the

498
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: Middle East. So I in some ways, like I didn't

499
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: think of it when I started that it was going

500
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: to be so relevant. But why is it relevant now?

501
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: Because we're living in a time where fascism is back

502
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: and where these ghosts that we thought we exercised, Like

503
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: you know, like if you had asked me fifteen years ago,

504
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: like what do you think of ethno nationalism, I'd like,

505
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: I think we're kind of kind of done with that

506
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: kind of you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe the psychopaths

507
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: in Israel, but like you know, in general, I think

508
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: that's sort of a dead letter. And yet now this

509
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: blood soaked idiocy is rearing back to life. Yeah, it's

510
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: the same with fascism, and it's the same with all

511
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: of these like evil and creepy little ghosts that we

512
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: thought we killed coming back.

513
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: I was writing a book before Trump's election, a novel

514
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: that I'll never finish, probably just this is not some

515
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: great tragedy. I have a lot of these. I finished

516
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: some of them, you know. But I was writing this

517
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: novel that was set in the nearish future, and I

518
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: was making the claim that the right wing would become

519
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: ascendant in the United States on the back of multiculturalism,

520
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: like that they would have like a woke fascism. They

521
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: would be like America for Americans, but anyone can be

522
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: an American, and they would have like, you know, trans inclusive,

523
00:29:59,200 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: all women unit.

524
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: It's in the like Caitlin Jenner.

525
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like putting down the revolution, right, because there

526
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: also would be a revolution happening. Because I was writing

527
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: it and then Trump got elected on like white people

528
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: for a white America, and I was like, oh, never mind,

529
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: got alan wrong. I've never felt more wrong about something

530
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: in my life. Okay, But there's a million reasons why

531
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: this book feels relevant, and one of them I was

532
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: thinking about how the booned not necessarily this book, but

533
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: this book is a big part of this. It provides

534
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: access to like an alternate tradition and history in a

535
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,479
Speaker 1: time that where Zionism is presenting itself as like the

536
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: only access to tradition for Jews in the world. And

537
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: that's really interesting to me a way of saying, like, hey,

538
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: literally at the same time, at the very beginning, was

539
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: that just as important players on the world stage, honestly,

540
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: possibly more important, was this alternate group who has largely

541
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: been erased because of a combination of Zionism, the Soviet Union,

542
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: and Nazis.

543
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: You know, absolutely, I mean, one of the things that

544
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: Zionism always tries to do, it's far from the worst thing.

545
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: I mean, the worst thing that Zionism does is it's

546
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: doing a genocide against Palestinians, right, But in addition to

547
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,959
Speaker 2: you know, stealing land, stealing people's homes, stealing people's lives,

548
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: the other thing that it tries to do is it

549
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: tries to steal the entirety of Jewish people's history, and

550
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: it tries to take you know, Jewish cultures writ large.

551
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: You know, there's like so many different types of Jews,

552
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: right from fucking Samarkan, you know, to Vienna. There's so

553
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: many different ways of thinking, so many different ways of being.

554
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: It tries to take all of that and homogenize it

555
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: into this like walmart ass version of ethno nationalism, like

556
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: Bargain Basement recycled Eastern European brute ethno nationalism with a

557
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: new settler colonial spin, And it tries to present itself

558
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: not only as correct, but as hegemonic history, as the

559
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 2: one desire that Jews had was to create a Jewish

560
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 2: ethno state, and it tries to erase all of the many,

561
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: many different ideas that Jewish communities had for how they

562
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: might like to live. And you know, the Jews, just

563
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: like any other group in the world, are disputatious and

564
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: argumentative and have many different visions of what the good

565
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: life means.

566
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: Y'all have encoded it a little bit more than other

567
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: like as a culture.

568
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we wrote it down a bit more. But nonetheless,

569
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: you know, all groups have many arguments about what the

570
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: good life means. And one of the most prominent strands,

571
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: as you talked about, in Jewish history, has been and

572
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: continues to be leftism. And one of the things that

573
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: I really wanted to do is I wanted to give

574
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: people their ancestors back yeah, and that's something that like

575
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: so many young Jewish people have told me. They've told

576
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: me that, like, you know, they went through Hebrew School.

577
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: They had this vision where you know, Jews lived in

578
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: Europe and it was just like pogrums and gray horror,

579
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: and then at the end they're all gassed. But then

580
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: glorious Israel, you know, returned from the land, the big,

581
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 2: strong Jewish sober with the gun, bravely oppressing Arabs. And

582
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 2: when they rejected that, because it's a bucked up supremacist vision,

583
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,239
Speaker 2: they were left with a hole in them. They were

584
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: left with this lack of knowledge of what their actual

585
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 2: history was. And the Bund and other Jewish groups too,

586
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: I mean, you know Jewish anarchists, Jewish communists also, you know,

587
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: pious Orthodox Jews as well. Also even like assimilationist Richie

588
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 2: Rich Jews, like lots of different Jews, rejected Zionism from

589
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: the start because they saw that the idea of creating

590
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: an ethno state in Palestine was a dangerous, stupid, racist,

591
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: and blood soaked idea that endangered both the position of

592
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: Jews in other countries, but also was premist on the

593
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

594
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: And people knew that shit right from the beginning, Like

595
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: reading people talking about this, you know, in the nineteenth century,

596
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: like in the really early days of Zionism, people are like,

597
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: I see where you're coming from, but that's not the

598
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: move And it was for all of those reasons. And

599
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: of course also this like to a kite idea. I

600
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm pronounced exactly, do kiteskite?

601
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: So the Boon opposed Zionism from the start, and there

602
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: were a few reasons for it, and it changed a

603
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 2: bit as the Zionist movement itself changed. So at the

604
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: very start, when prances onto the world stage at that

605
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 2: Swiss casino, the Boons looks at it and they are like,

606
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: are you on DMT? Are you telling me that nine

607
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: million Jews are going to leave Europe and not to

608
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 2: move to New York where their relatives are, but to

609
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 2: become collective farmers in the levant. H Wow, that's quite

610
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: an idea. And they thought that this idea was like

611
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: so cracked out stupid that the only way that it

612
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 2: even made sense was they were like, this is a

613
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 2: scam by the Jewish bosses, because what's happening is we

614
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: got these Jewish bosses here, we're paying us starvation wages.

615
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: And then they're saying, oh, I'm a great philanthropist, I

616
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: undoubted Yeshiva and Palestine. Don't pick it me for paying

617
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: you so much that you're starving to death. And so

618
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 2: they were just like, this is this is a scam.

619
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: And they also deeply resented it because they felt like

620
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 2: it was a capitulation to European anti Semites. I mean,

621
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: you had Europeans that saw Jews as a swarthy oriental

622
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 2: other who ought to get back to Palestine. And then

623
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: you had Zionists who were like, yeah, okay, yeah, that

624
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 2: sounds about right. So that's what was going on at first.

625
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: But then the Zionist movement gets the support of the

626
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: British Empire with the Balfour Declaration, and at that point

627
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: an additional element comes in.

628
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: And this is early twentieth century, nineteen seventeen something like that.

629
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, they get it in nineteen seventeen, but it only

630
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 2: really matters, you know, Britain wins the war, right, so

631
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 2: nineteen eighteen and at that point the bound is like, oh,

632
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: you might actually be able to do something about this.

633
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: This isn't just you, you know, having your like masturbatory

634
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: little hallucinations. You might be able to do something about

635
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 2: this because now you have British bayonets to help you.

636
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 2: And at this point the boond becomes incredibly morally disgusted

637
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: and they're like, you're going to make yourself the handmaids

638
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: of the British Empire to suppress the political rights of

639
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 2: the vast majority of the population of Palestine, Palestinian Arabs,

640
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 2: to take their land, to evict them from farms where

641
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: they and their ancestors have lived for generations. You're going

642
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 2: to do that. Go fuck yourself, man. And it's really

643
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 2: in interwar Poland where the Boondist opposition to Zionism reaches

644
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: its height, because that's the point at which Zionism gets

645
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: the backing of state power. And I want to talk

646
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 2: a little bit about the Polish government in inter war Polands.

647
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: Well wait, before we talk about the Polish government, we

648
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: should talk about something that isn't a scam also, which

649
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: is some of the goods and services that support this podcast,

650
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: because some of them might be scammed. Honestly, you're gonna

651
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: have to do your own figure and out which ones

652
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 1: are which. And we're back, Okay, no, actually, I am

653
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: very curious. Please tell me about this. I just was

654
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: looking at the time stamp and knew I had to

655
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: do an ad transition.

656
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: So Poland in nineteen eighteen, after the end of World

657
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 2: War One, emerges united and independent.

658
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: It gets to be a country.

659
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it gets to be a country after over a

660
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: century of partition between these three empires that now basically

661
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 2: no longer exist. And one of the aspects of this

662
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: new country is that Poles are not actually a huge

663
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 2: majority of the country, because, as we've said, every time

664
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 2: you draw a line around that place doesn't mean that

665
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 2: place is homogeneous.

666
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like Ukrainians and Jews, and those the only

667
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: ones I remember off the top of my head.

668
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ukrainians, Jews, Germans, Lithuanians have a ton of different

669
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 2: types of people there. And because of that, Polish nationalism

670
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: gets this like what I could only describe is like

671
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: this really insecure, paranoid character to it, and it particularly

672
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 2: becomes obsessed with Jews, who make up thirteen percent of

673
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: the population of Poland, and who often make up like

674
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 2: the majority of cities like Biawi Stock and who even

675
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 2: make up like a third of Warsaw and for a while.

676
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: This is kind of tamped down at the highest government

677
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: levels because Independent Poland has as i dictator named Josef

678
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: Pilsudski who is an authoritarian nationalist, but who he's not

679
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: an ethno nationalist. He dreams of this sort of like

680
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 2: greater multi ethnic Poland, you know, based on the old

681
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 2: Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. He's not an anti semi. He's an authoritarian.

682
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: He will send you to a concentration camp for disagreeing

683
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 2: with him, but he's not a racist.

684
00:38:58,440 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: Right.

685
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: But when Sutski dies in nineteen thirty five, the people

686
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: who take over the government are these military blowhards who

687
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: are very very stupid, very very incompetent, and not charismatic

688
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: like Pilsudski. These are not like, you know, great war

689
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: heroes that united Poland after one hundred years of partition.

690
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: These are just like mediocre man with a lot of

691
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 2: metals on.

692
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: Their chest, which is often the second generation of a dictatorship.

693
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 2: Always always right, prototypical second gen sequel dictators.

694
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's the sophomore slump really of dictatorships.

695
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: It's a common problem.

696
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're never as good as daddy. Yeah, and so

697
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 2: they're casting around for an ideology, and it's going to

698
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: hold this country together that has all these you know,

699
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: different problems with like economy, land reform, whatever. And they're like,

700
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 2: how about we get real racist? How about that? That's

701
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 2: a good idea.

702
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: It's weirdly common as a solution to It doesn't fix anything,

703
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: but people think it does.

704
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 2: They do, and so they're like the reason that Poland

705
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: has all these problems is that we have three point

706
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 2: three million Jews, and what we need to do is

707
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 2: we need to like deport all the Jews somewhere and

708
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: take all their shit, and then we'll be rich. If

709
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: we take over people's like ratty little stalls at the market,

710
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: will be rich. It's like some real underwear gnomes logic

711
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: going on over here. And they make this campaign where

712
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 2: they're like, we're going to try to deport our Jewish

713
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 2: population either to French colonize Madagascar or to Palestine. And

714
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: they're not just saying this. They're funding like terrorist youth

715
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: groups that are going through Jewish neighborhoods, throwing bombs into stores,

716
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: beating the shit out of people, screaming Jews to Palestine.

717
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 2: They are making these taxes that are targeted and impoverishing Jews.

718
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 2: They're making like an official national boycott movement that is

719
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 2: supported by the Catholic Church. That's like, buy from Poles,

720
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 2: don't buy from Jews. But they are explicitly like, we

721
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 2: want to force you out of the country because Poland

722
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: will only be prosperous when we lose three point three

723
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: million citizens. They impose racial segregation at the universities, like

724
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 2: they literally make benches on one side of the room

725
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 2: that Jews have to sit on. It is like very

726
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 2: classic shit.

727
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 1: I also love how people don't know how economics work.

728
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 1: Were like because the US is going through the same problem.

729
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: Now we're like, oh, we're an economic slump. Let's have

730
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 1: less people. That's not how economics work. More people makes

731
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 1: economy go bigger. Like this isn't rocket science, Like more

732
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: people doing stuff is how number go up?

733
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: No. No, if you know, if you just like steal

734
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: the shoemaker's shop, the shoes will magically come from God.

735
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: That's how it works, man, right.

736
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: I think so, yeah, yeah, that's what they taught me.

737
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: And I didn't go to Catholic school, but I can imagine.

738
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is the ethos of Poland by the

739
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 2: late thirties, and it's very like influenced by their ally

740
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: Adolf Hitler across the border as.

741
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: Well, who's classically a good person to be allied with,

742
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: goes really well for Poland really soon, I'm pretty sure.

743
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: Well he's very low respectful to slop peoples. It's one

744
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: of his main things, is Yeah. But but at this point,

745
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 2: you know they're they're allied with Adolf Hitler. They you know,

746
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 2: they are spending a lot of time demanding like France

747
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 2: give Mada Gascar to be a prison for Polish Jews,

748
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 2: like this is this is what's going on. And the

749
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 2: boond at this time is like, fuck you. This is

750
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: our country. We have lived here for a thousand years

751
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: and we're not leaving. We're not fucking leaving, and we

752
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 2: have a right to live here. This is our home.

753
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: We are born here. You cannot force us out. And

754
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: this philosophy, which is called do kite, there's two aspects

755
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 2: to it. The first one is they make like this

756
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 2: amazing social infrastructure in interwar Poland, like schools and women's

757
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: movements and like summer camps and eater troops, a sanatorium

758
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: for tubercular slum kids. You know, hiking clubs, newspapers that

759
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 2: tell like impoverished Jewish socialists about socialists in China and

760
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 2: introduce them to translations of like tagre this beautiful, beautiful

761
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 2: world that they make. But the other hand, they also

762
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: make a bunch of militias that defend their communities with

763
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: brass knuckles and spring loaded steel batons and guns sometimes

764
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 2: because they know that while building solidarity is one way

765
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: to stay safe, another way to stay safe is probably

766
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: to have a pistol. And that's their ethos. This is

767
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 2: our home, we live here, we will fight for it now.

768
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: At the same time as this is going on, the

769
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: Zionist movement, which at this point is you know, like

770
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 2: all movements, it's diverse. You know, they have a labor

771
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 2: Zionist movement led by David Bengourion that is devoted to

772
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 2: kicking Palestinians out of the Zionist economy in Palestine. You

773
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: also have a revisionist Zionist movement led by Zev Jabotinsky

774
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: that's devoted to trying to act like Mussolini and advocating

775
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 2: the conquest of both sides of the River Jordan. You know,

776
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 2: you have a few things all means the same thing

777
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: for Palestinians, but you know, different uniforms, different colored shirts,

778
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: you know. But all of these movements are cutting deals

779
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 2: with the Polish government and they are sending their leaders

780
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: to pose on Polish stages and being like, yeah, that's

781
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: a fine idea. Three million Polish Jews they should I mean,

782
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 2: we're not saying that they should be deported, but maybe

783
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: they should be evacuated, which is totally different. And they're like, yeah,

784
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 2: Poland you're right, these Jews are fucking foreigners. They really

785
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: don't have any place there. Send them to Palestine. But

786
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: it's not just that they're giving verbal support. It's also

787
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 2: that the late thirties are the years of the Great

788
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: Palestinian Revolt, which is a three year long uprising against

789
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 2: British occupation and against Sinis colonization that's ripping through Palestine

790
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 2: right now, and that is being savagely repressed by the British.

791
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: And during the Great Hour Revolt, the British are transforming

792
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: the Haganah, the Labour's eye militia, into a brutal counterinsurgency force,

793
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 2: just like a real like death squad style thing. So

794
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: during these years, the Haganah and then the two revisionist

795
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 2: Zionists militias, the air Gun and the psychopathically deranged Stern Gang.

796
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: All of these groups are getting money, guns, and military

797
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 2: training from the Polish government. And this military training is

798
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 2: such that young Polish Jews who are going to these

799
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: training camps have to literally sign pledges that they're not

800
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 2: going to use the skills they learn to defend their

801
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: own community in Poland. They have to go like right

802
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: to Palestine and murder some Palestinians with those skills. They're

803
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 2: not going to be using them to fight Polish pogramasts.

804
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: No fucos boomerang here, No no.

805
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 2: And so the boond is looking at this collaboration between

806
00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: the Zionist movement and the poisonously racist Polish government and

807
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 2: they are like, you are traders, You are collaborators with

808
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 2: our enemies. Polish government wants to force us out of

809
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 2: our land, and you're helping them.

810
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing that like, this is the third

811
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: country I am now aware of that the Zionists are

812
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: doing this with like I learned, you know, at the

813
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: beginning of the Nazi regime, it was like, hey Jews,

814
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: I'll go to Palestine. Right Obviously they famously got way

815
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: worse than that, and that the Russians were doing it

816
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: and then the Poles are doing it, and like, it

817
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: really struck me. I was reading a piece recently about, Oh,

818
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:34,959
Speaker 1: I don't even know if this episode has come out yet.

819
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: I'm working on an episode about partisan resistance to the

820
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 1: Nazis in Amsterdam. And a Jewish man is talking about,

821
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: you know, hanging out in Amsterdam and I can't remember

822
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: what year, early forties, and is like some asshole on

823
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: the street is singing some Nazi song and he's like, hey,

824
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 1: shut the fuck up, this isn't Germany. He actually says

825
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 1: it's not Germany yet for another fortnight or so, because

826
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: he knows that shit's coming, you know, and the Nazi

827
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: punches him and says, go back to Palestine, and it's

828
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: just like I read that, and I read the translation

829
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: by that guy's grandson who's a Dutch anarchist, and just

830
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: was like, oh, right, that was the atmosphere. The atmosphere

831
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 1: was like get the fuck out of here, we don't

832
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: want you here. Go the fuck to Palestine, and it Yeah,

833
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: it's really striking to me, and it's hard to read

834
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: all of that. And then I mean, obviously it's like

835
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 1: pretty easy to look at what's happening right now and

836
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: be anti Zionist, but like, it just seems so obvious

837
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: to me. And I don't have a dog inist fight,

838
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: as you shouldn't make your dogs fight, but looking at this,

839
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, this seems so logical to be

840
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 1: not into the thing that the people who are trying

841
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: to kill you all want you to do. And I

842
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: really appreciate reading about the Bund, and you know, I've

843
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: read about other anti Zionist groups and stuff, but I

844
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: just the Bond honestly seems like the largest organized group opposing.

845
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 2: Them, I think so. I mean, you know, the whole

846
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 2: like Jews to Palestine thing that European anti Semites always had.

847
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,919
Speaker 2: I think there was something with European ethno nationalism where

848
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 2: they couldn't get their head around people who didn't have

849
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 2: a quote unquote homeland, right. And there's two groups in

850
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 2: Europe at that time, who are the major groups that

851
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 2: do not have a you know, quote unquote natural ethno

852
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: state to go to, and that's the Roma people and

853
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 2: the Jews, and both of those become groups that the

854
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: Nazis end up doing a fucking genocide against and it's

855
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 2: like there was just something in that European ethno nationalist

856
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,439
Speaker 2: psyche where they were like, there be people, and people

857
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 2: should have a specific land that's they're people's land, and

858
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 2: if they don't have a land, very bad evil people, criminals,

859
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 2: and Zionism is really this attempt to make Jews normal

860
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 2: by the rules of deranged, psychopathic European ethno nationalism.

861
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that seems like a good spot to stop

862
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: for today, well for today for the listeners. But we're

863
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: gonna get to keep talking more in like five minutes,

864
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,399
Speaker 1: but we're going to talk more about the Bond, We're

865
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: gonna talk more about their history. I have a whole

866
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 1: bunch of other questions I haven't even gotten yet to

867
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: asking if you have any opinions about some stuff going

868
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: on bali Stock, which obviously the listeners are dying to

869
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: know about our joint opinions about what's happened in bali

870
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: Stock during all of this, as well as of course

871
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,720
Speaker 1: positions about the Russian Revolution, which is what everyone comes

872
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: to this for.

873
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: Everyone wants to know what happened at the Second Congress

874
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 2: of the Soviets. I'm like, I went to the club

875
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 2: last week, and like, that's what, dude. Everyone was talking

876
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: about the Mensheviks.

877
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: Everyone who was willing to talk to me was talking

878
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: about the Mensheviks. Everyone else was avoiding me. I don't

879
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: know why.

880
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, if.

881
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: You want to be the life of the party, then

882
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: come back on Wednesday when we talk about all those things.

883
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: But first, where can people find your stuff? This book?

884
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: Other things about you? I didn't give you a bio

885
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: at all. I just mentioned that you did this book,

886
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: and we're in a book I I edited a long

887
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: time ago. But you've done so many more things. I

888
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: ran across your name so many times before i've actually

889
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 1: met you, and just in like really far flung things.

890
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: I think that we've walked similar worlds of hanging out

891
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: with radicals as well as like basically circus punks, you know.

892
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I did the cover for your

893
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: steampunk magazine back in the day.

894
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: That's true, but I don't tell people about that. Yees

895
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: oh yeah, that's oh yeah, I know. I've always been

896
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: really cool, is what I'm trying to say, same as you.

897
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've always always yeah. Okay, so I'm I'm an

898
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 2: artist and a writer, And where can people find me,

899
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: so they can find me at mollikrabapple dot com or

900
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 2: on Instagram, the site that is pavlovianly training us to

901
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 2: do silly dances in order to trade. AI could find

902
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 2: me there at molly crab Apple. But the really import

903
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 2: thing is that you should pre order my book. And

904
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 2: the reason that you should pre order here where we

905
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 2: live is our country, is because pre orders literally mean

906
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 2: everything in publishing. I'm sure I'm going to shock all

907
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,439
Speaker 2: you listeners by telling you this, but like leftist anti

908
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 2: Zionist history is not what corporate publishers are really putting

909
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 2: all of their MC behind. You know, it's very very shocking,

910
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 2: exactly exactly. But if you think these stories are important,

911
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 2: like if you think this anti zionist history is important,

912
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 2: the best thing that you possibly can do it to

913
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 2: support that is to pre order the book before it

914
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 2: comes out, like don't wait till it comes out, pre

915
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 2: order it. Also, you can pre order copies for your

916
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 2: relatives who are wrong, and you can give them those

917
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 2: copies and you can say you're wrong, and here's two

918
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 2: hundred thousand words about how's gum your opinions are. It'll

919
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 2: make you really popular. You should definitely do that, you know.

920
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, so you can pre order my book if

921
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 2: you don't have a local bookstore that you go to

922
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 2: that's near you. I always recommend bookshop dot org. But seriously,

923
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 2: like pre ordered from anywhere and you have like my

924
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 2: utmost gratitude and heart, because it really is the best

925
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 2: way to help get the story out.

926
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: I push people towards if you don't have a local

927
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: place Firestorm dot co op as a worker and collective

928
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: in Asheville, North Carolina. And one of the reasons that

929
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: I always pushed them one I wrote at least one

930
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: of my books sitting on their couch without them getting

931
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 1: mad at me for just sitting on their couch all

932
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: day when I lived in a van. And two when

933
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: I went down to go to see what was happening

934
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 1: with Hurricane Helene relief the day after the hurricane hit.

935
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: The place that people were gathering and fixing generators and

936
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: distributing water and food, one of the places was Firestorm

937
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,879
Speaker 1: that they had turned their place into a mutual aid hub.

938
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: So I always say that if you don't have a

939
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 1: local place to support Bookshop dot org, Firestorm dot co op,

940
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 1: all right, well we will see you all on Wednesday.

941
00:52:52,880 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 2: See you guys then. People Who Did Cool Stuff is

942
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 2: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on

943
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media, visit our website Goolezonemedia dot com, or

944
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 2: check us out on the five or radio app, app

945
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 2: A Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.