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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel

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Speaker 1: one two. How in the hay is a nearly sixty

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Speaker 1: year old woman accused of murdering her husband and her doppleganger,

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Speaker 1: her bottle blonde look alike? How in the world is

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Speaker 1: this happening? Right now? A multi state man hunt goes

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Speaker 1: on for a woman accused of murdering her husband and

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Speaker 1: a complete female stranger as just in As we go

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Speaker 1: to air right now, brand new close circuit TV foot

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Speaker 1: is showing the alleged killer chatting up victim number two,

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Speaker 1: laying on the charm. I Meancy Grace, this is Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories and this is what we know. Lois spotted perched

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Speaker 1: up on a bar stool, reeling in her second murder

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Speaker 1: victim according to police, with me an all star lineup.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville

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Speaker 1: State University, John Limley, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, Mickey Sherman,

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Speaker 1: renowned defense attorney and multiple jurisdictions and author of How

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Speaker 1: Can You Defend Those People? Let That's so Kim and

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Speaker 1: veteran New York psychologist joining me from Manhattan. Karen stark

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Speaker 1: straight out to you, John Limley. Let's start at the beginning. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I know this woman is on the run. I believe

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Speaker 1: she's whoa check it out. That's a million dollar smile

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Speaker 1: she's got going on in that bar, up on the

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Speaker 1: bar stool. Uh. She looks like a cover girl. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not kidding. She's got the bleached blond hair down

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Speaker 1: past her shoulders, perfect makeup. I think that's my shade

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Speaker 1: of lipstick. This chicks weary, and you got a beautiful smile,

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Speaker 1: and her eyes are laser focused on the woman sitting

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Speaker 1: next to her at the bar, who is now dead,

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Speaker 1: Pamela Hutchinson. Okay, start at the beginning. Let's start with

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Speaker 1: what happened to the husband. Yes, victim number one, Nancy

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Speaker 1: Lois's husband, David Reese. He grew up in Rochester, Minnesota.

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Speaker 1: He served in the U. S. Navy, and after that

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Speaker 1: he came back to his hometown. He opened a bait shop,

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Speaker 1: a store for fishing supplies. Now this business must have

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Speaker 1: inspired him to go from being a retailer to being

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Speaker 1: a supplier, because he sold that bait shop and began

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Speaker 1: a commercial worm farm. The new venture, I think had

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Speaker 1: a great name, the prairie wax worm fam. Okay, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, back it up, just a moment, just a moment.

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Speaker 1: I took one sip of my tea and the next

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Speaker 1: thing I heard was prairie wax worm farm. Prairie wax

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Speaker 1: worm farm. Okay, Mickey, sure, I mean I don't. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you've ever had that pop up in a case, have you,

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Speaker 1: prairie wax worm farm. I think the young lady who

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Speaker 1: was the suspect here is probably an outgrowth of the

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Speaker 1: malfunction of one of the worms, because she is no

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Speaker 1: good looking. Okay, Mickey, I'll let you. I'll let you

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Speaker 1: hold that defense for just one moment, so limbly. What

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Speaker 1: did you say about a worm farm? Yes, I thought

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Speaker 1: you might wonder what in the world was a wax

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Speaker 1: worm farm. Well, I did a little research. I wan't

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Speaker 1: bore you with all the ins and outs of the

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Speaker 1: I'm not bored at all. I heard the two words

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Speaker 1: of worm farm. I'm all ears. Okay. Because my grandfather,

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Speaker 1: on my dad's side, of course, everybody had a farm,

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Speaker 1: work work the the farm. He had a an area

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Speaker 1: where he would put old food and corn husking and

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Speaker 1: all that to grow worms. So I'm just extrapolating and guessing.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead, Yeah, I did a little risk search discovered

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Speaker 1: that waxworms are the caterpillar form, although wax moth I

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Speaker 1: have to admit I fell down the rabbit hole investigating

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Speaker 1: the life and times of the wax You're taking us

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Speaker 1: all with you. Please stop. What's a worm farm? I'll

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Speaker 1: spare you all that anyway, David's new worm farm was.

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Speaker 1: You keep saying I'll spare you, I'll spare you. Then

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Speaker 1: you keep talking. Just tell me what's the worm farm?

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Speaker 1: For Pete's sake, I'm trying to get to a double

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Speaker 1: office side. Now you know what my family has to

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Speaker 1: put up with this new farm outside the tiny town

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Speaker 1: of Blooming Prairie, Minnesota, about eighty five miles south of

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Speaker 1: the Twin Cities. Well, David had a couple of partners

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Speaker 1: in this business, and one of them became really concerned

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Speaker 1: after not seeing David for a whole two weeks, hadn't

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Speaker 1: heard from him either. Um. He finally just decides enough

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Speaker 1: he calls the Dodge County authorities to check in on

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Speaker 1: him to conduct a welfare or check. Deputies went to

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Speaker 1: the farm on Highway to eighteen just outside Blooming Prairie,

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Speaker 1: and they found David, but not in the condition that

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Speaker 1: any friends or family might have hoped for. He was

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Speaker 1: dead and had been for some time. He had been

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Speaker 1: shot at some point several times. Okay, that gives a

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Speaker 1: whole new meaning to worm farm. Okay, guys, we have

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Speaker 1: been joking around about this guy and the wax worm

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Speaker 1: farm he and his partner had developed. Just f y.

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Speaker 1: I that's a pretty big enterprise and a lot of

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Speaker 1: areas of our country for you city slickers that don't

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Speaker 1: know about a worm farm. Long story short, forget about that.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at his photo right now. David Reese found

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Speaker 1: shot dead after one of his business partners called the

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Speaker 1: police to say he hadn't shown up for work for

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Speaker 1: two weeks. Well, you know there's such a thing, Mickey Sherman,

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Speaker 1: as I was just discussing this, well, actually fighting with

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Speaker 1: Dan Abrams on our A and E program, Grace versus

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Speaker 1: Abrams about alibi by routine, Mick, and you've tried so

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Speaker 1: many cases, you know what that is. It's when, for instance,

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Speaker 1: if Jackie Howard or Alan do you didn't start calling

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Speaker 1: me and texting me at about five thirty in the morning,

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Speaker 1: I would know something was way off, and I'd call

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Speaker 1: nine one one, okay, because we're all putting the our

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Speaker 1: serious radio program together first thing every day. If she

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Speaker 1: didn't walk through the door at the prescribed time, I

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Speaker 1: would start worrying. I would know something was very, very wrong, Mickey,

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Speaker 1: alibi routine by routine. It's when a defense uses the

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Speaker 1: normal routine. I get up at six, I do this,

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Speaker 1: I have my tea, I get in my car. I

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Speaker 1: can eat thirty minutes. I clock in it this time.

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Speaker 1: You have a routine. Okay, that's your alibi. Right here,

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Speaker 1: the co worker knew something was horribly wrong because his

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Speaker 1: partner did not show up to right, Mick, Well, it

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Speaker 1: gets you up to bad, there's no question about it.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't drive you home. That's that's that's the problem.

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Speaker 1: It alerts the police or the other investigators that maybe

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Speaker 1: there's sell some problems here because of the between departure,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't steal the case. I mean, maybe he

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Speaker 1: just got tired of working with corn. Yeah you know what, Mickey,

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Speaker 1: You're right. I like the way you put that. You said, Now,

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Speaker 1: what did you say, you knocking? It's you knock something,

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Speaker 1: But it's not a home run. What did you say?

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Speaker 1: I said, it gets you up to bad, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't bring it home. Okay. I'm totally writing that down

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Speaker 1: and stealing it from now on. It's mine. You never

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Speaker 1: said it. Now you say it gets you up to

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Speaker 1: bath but it doesn't get you home. That's a good

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Speaker 1: but Mickey Sherman, I can see that on a T

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Speaker 1: shirt right now. Dan just welcome. Oh okay, So we're

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Speaker 1: talking about David Reese and he has found shot dead. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Of course, as usual, you first look at the possibility

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Speaker 1: of suicide, okay, or accident so as to impugne men's

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Speaker 1: rael on No. One. Joseph Scott Morgan with me, forensics

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Speaker 1: expert and Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: how can you look at gunshot wounds and determine if

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Speaker 1: it's suicide, accident or homicide? In a nutshell? Don't go

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Speaker 1: deaf calm for on me. I'll try to. I'll try

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Speaker 1: to restrain myself. Nancy uh in uh in cases where

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Speaker 1: we're trying to determine if it is in fact a

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Speaker 1: suicide versus homicide, uh an example, and a suicide gunshot

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Speaker 1: wound would be something that we would find consistent, uh, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, placed to the side of the head tightly pressed,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to a homicide, which is many times fired

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Speaker 1: at some disc sants. Uh. You rarely get press contact

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Speaker 1: with homicide, so we would we would want to know

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Speaker 1: was the individual shot in the back of the head,

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Speaker 1: which might be consistent with a homicide as opposed to

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Speaker 1: being shot inside. Well, either that or he's a contortionist.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead, shot in the back of it. You're absolutely right,

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Speaker 1: But there have been cases where that has taken place.

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Speaker 1: So we have to consider all possibilities. And our working

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Speaker 1: model is that we assume all deaths or homicide until

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Speaker 1: we can prove otherwise. And in this case, I hope

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Speaker 1: that the police will like, you're positive. You gotta be positive.

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Speaker 1: You've got to find every beam of little sunshine in

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Speaker 1: the dark clouds. Well. Another tip off, of course, is

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Speaker 1: when there are multiple gun shots, you know you're you're

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Speaker 1: shot in the chest, you're shot in the arm, you're

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Speaker 1: shot in the head. That's not a suicide. All right. Now,

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Speaker 1: we don't know all the details surrounding the husband, David

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Speaker 1: Reese's shooting death, but we know this we know. The

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Speaker 1: cops immediately hone in on her. John Limley Crime stories

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Speaker 1: of best to get a reporter what happens? Then they

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Speaker 1: find the husband Dad, And the next turn in the

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Speaker 1: case was that someone else was missing from the Reefs household,

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Speaker 1: and that was his wife. Lois is missing, and so

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Speaker 1: is a good bit of David's money. Uh figures ranged

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Speaker 1: between eleven thousand, maybe over twenty thousand dollars. It's not

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Speaker 1: long before Lois is charged with theft in connection with

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Speaker 1: several suspicious withdrawals from David's bank account. Well, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: is that one of them in eleven thousand dollar check

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Speaker 1: forged on his business account? I mean the bank should

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Speaker 1: have a surveillance of that, at least of that. She

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Speaker 1: had transferred money from David's business account into his personal

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Speaker 1: account and then forged her her husband's handwriting on at

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Speaker 1: least three checks, all made out to herself. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: leaving a trail a mile wide. And what about where

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Speaker 1: does okay his car is missing, money is getting siphoned

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Speaker 1: out of his account, there's a Ford check on his

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Speaker 1: business account, and then does she pop up at an

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Speaker 1: Iowa casino? John Limley, it's not long before a tip

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Speaker 1: comes in, one that leads them to the Diamond Joe

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Speaker 1: Casino just off Interstate thirty five, just across the border

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Speaker 1: in Northwood, Iowa. Now, for close friends and family of

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Speaker 1: the Reese's, this actually would make perfect sense if not

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Speaker 1: for the situation. Lois had a problem, a major gambling addiction.

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Speaker 1: She loved gambling. Of course. The thing that didn't make

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Speaker 1: sense is why Lois would be playing the slots at

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Speaker 1: the same time her husband is missing and had been

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Speaker 1: found murdered. It turns out Lois had been at that casino,

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Speaker 1: but unfortunately for authorities, by the time they get there,

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Speaker 1: she's long gone. Investigators were back to square one in

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Speaker 1: search for John. John only you got me drinking from

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Speaker 1: the fire hydrant too much, too fast. I can't take

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Speaker 1: it all in, Karen, start with me. We're now New

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Speaker 1: York psychologist. Karen. She's got one husband dead at the

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Speaker 1: worm farm, alright, longtime husband, and now she's gambling at

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Speaker 1: the casino. Karen, what is that state of mind? You

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Speaker 1: leave leave your husband's shot multiple times dead on the

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Speaker 1: worm farm back home, and she's in Iowa running through

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Speaker 1: all that money. It's she might as well take out

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Speaker 1: a billboard on Third Avenue that says, look at me,

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Speaker 1: I kill my husband. Here I am at the slot

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Speaker 1: machines in Iowa. Come and get me well. And what

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Speaker 1: it also says is, look at me, I killed my

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Speaker 1: husband and I don't care. I'm having a good old

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Speaker 1: time using the slab machines because I don't have a conscience.

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Speaker 1: And that's what's happening with this woman. That's so typical

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Speaker 1: of the sociopath. They have no feelings, so they could

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Speaker 1: commit a crime and then go off, take the money

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Speaker 1: and have a wonderful time playing slot. You know it's

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Speaker 1: so odd, Mickey Shrman, you and I've seen it all,

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Speaker 1: or so let me knock on wood on that one,

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Speaker 1: because just every time I say we've seen it all,

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Speaker 1: then something tops it. But Mickey, this frame of mind,

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Speaker 1: if you and I were had committed a crime, had

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Speaker 1: committed a murder, we would be ducking and diving. We

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Speaker 1: would be using only cash, would go all Jodiarius and

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Speaker 1: get our gas and cans and the trunk so we

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have a receipt anywhere. We would be hiding out

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Speaker 1: paying cash at a hotel six, staying totally under the

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Speaker 1: radar until we hit mehico, right, but maybe we've I

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Speaker 1: don't know you, okay, So okay, that's right, the high

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Speaker 1: level the slot. So, Mickey, this woman is is brazen. Really,

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Speaker 1: that's what she is. Brazen. That's generally the nature of

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Speaker 1: someone who kills other people. So it's I mean, the

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Speaker 1: psychologists about the field day with her. But to the

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Speaker 1: fact that she's done this dastardly deed and then goes

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Speaker 1: to a casino, I don't think that's out of the

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Speaker 1: realm of the normality for somebody who has no Yah.

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Speaker 1: That's you've actually um hit on something. And I don't

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Speaker 1: really know how to verbalize it, but you're right, people

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Speaker 1: that would kill so brazenly are not thinking the way

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Speaker 1: you and I think, Mick. I mean, I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: she's insane because she's leading a nationwide manhunt right now.

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Speaker 1: She's eluding everybody, so she's no idiot. She's crazy like

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Speaker 1: a fox. But that mentality is something that I can't understand.

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Speaker 1: So this is what we know. A real life female

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Speaker 1: human black widow is suspecting the death of her husband,

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Speaker 1: shot multiple times, She apparently steals as are siphons, all

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Speaker 1: his money and is spotted at the Iowa slots. So

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Speaker 1: John Limley is my understanding. She goes on basically a

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Speaker 1: tour the Gulf States explained. Yeah, she uh starts heading

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Speaker 1: south and from reports she visits other casinos along the way.

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Speaker 1: She has a long trip ahead of her. We don't

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Speaker 1: know if she had in her mind her destination or

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Speaker 1: if she just hit the road the interstate and started

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Speaker 1: heading south. But um, eventually she ends up in Florida,

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Speaker 1: in Fort Myers. Fort Myers. The only thing that I

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Speaker 1: would have, uh, I would imagine Orlando, because all roads

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Speaker 1: in crime seem to lead to Orlando. I think it's

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Speaker 1: because of the giant influx of tourists and people. Awesome weather,

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Speaker 1: it's beautiful there. But something about Florida in general tracks

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Speaker 1: people from all over the country. And she Lois and Reese,

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Speaker 1: we know for a fact, ends up in Florida, and

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Speaker 1: specifically at a bar. And there's no way you can

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Speaker 1: tell me that she did not hone in on this

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Speaker 1: woman because she the killer, the alleged killer believes this

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Speaker 1: woman Hutchinson was her doppelganger, her look alike. And when

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Speaker 1: you put them jack, you look at this, look at

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Speaker 1: their faces side by side. Now the alleged killer Reese Lois,

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Speaker 1: and Reese has her hair long and pull back in

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Speaker 1: a bun in that photo, and Hutchinson has her shortened bouncy.

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Speaker 1: But you pull the hair back and change the hair color,

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Speaker 1: that's totally a look alike. So she goes from casino

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Speaker 1: to casino and pops up there in Fort Myers, Florida,

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Speaker 1: on a bar stool at the Smoking Oyster Brewery in

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Speaker 1: Fort Myers Beach. This is still for days before Hutchinson

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Speaker 1: is found dead. What describe what you see on the video,

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Speaker 1: John Linley, She's caught on close circuit TV. True, it's

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Speaker 1: a short, relatively short clip, and you can see Lois.

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Speaker 1: She is facing that surveillance camera. She pulls her glasses

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Speaker 1: back on her head. Uh. She really seems to be,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, turning on the charm. She is in

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Speaker 1: her element, seems to be holding court. And you can

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Speaker 1: see the back of the head of this doppelganger, this

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Speaker 1: supposed twin of sorts, Pam Hudgins Pam Hutchinson, right, you

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Speaker 1: can see the back of her head. She's wearing a

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Speaker 1: red and white cap. They seem to be having a

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Speaker 1: really good time. They're laughing and drinking. And I see

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Speaker 1: a cell phone sitting out beside her, but I think

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Speaker 1: it's belonging to a man who's sitting on her other side,

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Speaker 1: and he and the alleged black widow are sitting back

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Speaker 1: to back there at two bar stools, and each one

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Speaker 1: is turned away from the other like two bookends. Now

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Speaker 1: Lois and Reese is wearing a pair of very pale khaki's,

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Speaker 1: a pale bluish purple tank top, short sleeve, you know,

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Speaker 1: pull over. She's got her hair super platinum blonde. It

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Speaker 1: looks like it's just been blown out. It's down below

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Speaker 1: her shoulders. She has on white sunglasses like she's wearing

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Speaker 1: them like a headband with her hair back, and during

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Speaker 1: the conversation pulls them off. She's drinking out of a

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Speaker 1: tall red glass. Her intended victim, Pamela Hutchinson, it's also

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Speaker 1: drinking something and they're engaged in conversation throughout the whole video,

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Speaker 1: And when you look at it, you see Lois and Rice.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever seen one of those um wildlife video

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Speaker 1: movies or documentaries just Scott Morgan where you see all

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Speaker 1: the antelope drinking calmly, or the gazelles at the pool

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00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 1: of water on the Serenghetti and in the distance you

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Speaker 1: don't really see it much. But then when you see

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Speaker 1: do see it, you see the predator. Let's just say,

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Speaker 1: a lion sneak up and its eyes are razor locked

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Speaker 1: on one of the gazelle. It never takes its size off.

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Speaker 1: It's just gotta look. It's almost as if if you

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Speaker 1: dropped a brick on its head, it would not look

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Speaker 1: away from its target. That's the way she's looking at

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Speaker 1: Pam Hutchinson. She never takes her eyes off, never does.

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Speaker 1: And the thing about a lot of those gazelles is

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Speaker 1: that they'll alert. This woman never alerted to it. She

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Speaker 1: never saw it coming. And that's what makes this particularly scary. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: this lady that is perpetrating this is very charming, very disarming.

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Speaker 1: And who would you know, who would think that there's

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Speaker 1: there's pure evil, you know, uh in what this woman

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Speaker 1: was about to do. She's engaging this woman. They're just

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Speaker 1: having a nice conversation. Looks like they're just yucking it

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Speaker 1: up and they're laughing. They're having a good old But

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Speaker 1: not for long, Joe Scott, Not not for long at all.

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Speaker 1: This ends in tragedy because pam Hutchinson is found dead

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Speaker 1: in her Florida condo. Her purse was found in disarray,

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Speaker 1: all cash, credit cards, and most important I D removed

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00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,640
Speaker 1: the lead County under share of Carmine Marcino adds. Investigation

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00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 1: reveals Miss Hutchinson was targeted due to similarities and their

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Speaker 1: appearances and he's right. Police now fear that after murdering her,

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Speaker 1: her husband Lois and Reese black widow goes on the run.

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Speaker 1: I D s a doubled ganger in smoking Oyster Brewery

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Speaker 1: killed her, murders her so she could impersonate her and

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Speaker 1: assume her identity. Take a listen to this. In April,

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Speaker 1: Lee County Sheriff's Office responded to a medical assistance call

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Speaker 1: at six four five old San Carlos Boulevard and Fort

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Speaker 1: Myers Beach. Upon arrival, deputies encountered the deceased fifty nine

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Speaker 1: year old female, later identified as Pamela Hutchinson, who was

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Speaker 1: found to have suffered fatal gunshot wounds. The medical examiner

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Speaker 1: determined that Miss Hutchinson was the victim of a homicide.

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Speaker 1: The Lee County Sheriff's Office Major Crimes Unit responded and

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Speaker 1: assume the investigation. Miss Hutchinson's purse was found to be

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Speaker 1: in disarray and all cash, credit cards, and identify occasion

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00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 1: appeared to be removed. Additionally, the decedent's car keys vehicle,

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Speaker 1: a white Accurate t L with a Florida tag of

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Speaker 1: Y three seven t A, were determined to be missing.

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00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: Further investigation revealed that Miss Hutchinson was targeted by the

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Speaker 1: suspect due to the similarities in their appearance. Investigation concluded

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Speaker 1: that Reese is currently a person of interest and a

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Speaker 1: recent homicide that took place in Dodge County, Minnesota. Our

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00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: Major Crimes Unit has worked around the clock and has

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00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 1: obtained in the rest warrant for Reese, a white female

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00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 1: with a date of birth of February two. Our detectives

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00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 1: have reviewed hundreds of hours of video and traveled throughout

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Speaker 1: the state and collected hundreds of items for forensic examination,

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00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: and have coordinated efforts with our state and federal agencies.

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Speaker 1: It has been determined that Reece has fled southwest Florida

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Speaker 1: and has traveled through the Gulf State and into Corpus Christie,

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Speaker 1: Texas area, and current whereabouts are unknown. Reese's wanted for murder,

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Speaker 1: grand theft of motor vehicle and grand theft, and criminal

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Speaker 1: use of personal identification. Reese's mode of operation is to

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Speaker 1: be friend women who resemble her and steal their identity.

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00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 1: US Marshalls are actively involved in a national search for

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Speaker 1: this dangerous fugitive. Reese is considered armed and dangerous and

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Speaker 1: should not be approached if located. The Lee County Sheriff's

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Speaker 1: Office asking both the local and national media as well

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Speaker 1: as the public to share Reese's information and the contact

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Speaker 1: Southwest Florida Crime Stoppers at seven eight zero tips I

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Speaker 1: have any information on Reese's whereabouts. You were listening to

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Speaker 1: the Lee County, Florida under Sheriff laying out what they

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Speaker 1: believe happened. So, John, what can you tell me about

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Speaker 1: the second victim? She looks so perky and bubbly and

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Speaker 1: all of her photos I'm talking about Pam Hutchinson. Right.

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00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: We may think that they look a lot alike from photos,

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00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: but personality wise, they really couldn't be more different. As

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00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: you know, you can learn a lot about a person

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00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: from their Facebook page, and that's definitely the case with

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Speaker 1: Pam Hutchinson. She was from Bradenton, Florida. As you scroll

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Speaker 1: down her Facebook page, you see she's pretty vibrant, she's funny. Uh.

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00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: Some great posts on her Facebook page. She loves the beach, dancing,

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Speaker 1: pretty dresses. Friends and family from their comments, obviously adore her.

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Speaker 1: After allegedly killing her doppelganger, her twin, Pam Hudginson, we

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Speaker 1: believe Lois and Reese took off in the woman's white

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Speaker 1: accurate t L Florida license plate. Why yellow three seven

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Speaker 1: tea toy a alpha A alpha? Why three seventy a

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Speaker 1: A abandoning her own two thousand four white I lack

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00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: escalade at a Florida park. Now from there, she's in

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Speaker 1: the woman's car, which is an white Accura t L

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00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: Florida license plate. Why three seventy A A? From there?

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00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: Where does she go? John Limley. The last word we

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00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: have from authorities is when they report that she has

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00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 1: been spotted in Corpus Christie, Texas, some dred miles away.

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Speaker 1: And as you know, Nancy, Corpus Christidy, Texas not that

383
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: far from the Mexican border. This is what cops are saying. Quote,

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Speaker 1: she could be anywhere at this time. Our suspect loves

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Speaker 1: to gamble, she loves casinos. She could be anywhere. She

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00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: is armed, She is dangerous. She looks like anybody's mother.

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00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 1: She smiles, but she's calculated, and she is a killer

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00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: on the loose. Whoa Okay, Karen Stark helped me reconcile

389
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: this gregarious, charm arming bottle blonde with a beautiful white smile,

390
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: sitting out of a bar stool, chatting up everybody around her,

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00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: with a laser lot on her next murder victim. She's,

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00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: you know, just a very short way from the Mexican border,

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00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: last spot of Corpus Christie, Texas. What's so frightening about

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00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: encountering a person like this is that she can come

395
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: across as your very best friend, the most charming, grecarious

396
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: you want to know her. She's got her sunglasses on

397
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 1: and off and making eye contact with you, and the

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00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: last thing that anyone would ever suspect is the whole

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00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: time she's plotting to kill you. That's what's so deceiving

400
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 1: about someone who's a sociopath is capable of murder is

401
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: that they can really come off as quite charming and

402
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: you would never believe that this is about to happen.

403
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: Who would ever think on meeting this new purse And

404
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: isn't she great? Oh and by the way, I bet

405
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: would be very careful because she's going to assume my

406
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: identity and kill me. Well, you know another thing, Mickey Sherman,

407
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: I know you're probably going to argue it's all quote

408
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence, which is which it is, f y I.

409
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: Circumstantial evidence under the law is to be considered on

410
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: equal footing with direct evidence, such as a confession, DNA

411
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: or fingerprint. But Mickey Sherman, I know you're gonna argue, Well,

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00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 1: we don't know she killed her look alike, her twin,

413
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 1: Pam Hutchinson. But I'm looking at surveillance video of her

414
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: the black widow Lewis and Reese right now, and she

415
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: is spotted at Hutchinson's condo just before her dead bodies found.

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00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: So she's on video with her at the bar stool

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00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: at Smoking Oyster Brewery and Fort Myers. She's also spotted

418
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 1: at Pam's condo and Pam ends up dead. What about that, Mick, Well,

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00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: it is circumstantial evidence in it, and I'll do the

420
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: first to concede that circumstantial evidence is often better, better

421
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: than my witness or confessions or what else. And most

422
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: people feeled, however, that if it's circumstantial, it's not worth anything.

423
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: And those of us who try cases know that that's

424
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: not the case. The bottom line is, they still need

425
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: something to drive this home render. She may have picked

426
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: up to someone at the Doyster Bar, but they still

427
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: need something to build the bridge between being spotted. Oh oh,

428
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: I've got something. I got something for you, Mickey, Oh,

429
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: you're gonna hate this. The gun, the weapon used to

430
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: kill the husband, is the same weapon used to kill

431
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: Pam Hutchinson. They both died with the same gun. Everybody

432
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: you know how that works. A gun when it is made,

433
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: has an individual marking inside the barrel where the metal dries.

434
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: It's like a fingerprint. As a bullet hurdles down the barrel,

435
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: it is struck with high velocity against the inside of

436
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: the barrel, leaving striations or markings on the bullet that

437
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: only one gun in the world can leave. So when

438
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: you can match up those bullets taken out of the

439
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: victim's body under microscope, you can see it's very plain.

440
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: When you look at it. Joe Scott, it sounds like

441
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: high science. But Joseph Scott Morgan, it's very plain to

442
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,959
Speaker 1: see under a microscope. Yeah, Nancy, it's a ballistic fingerprint. Uh,

443
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: and it is unique to that particular weapon. Being that

444
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: this uh is apparently at this point in time, the

445
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: same weapon that she used relative to her husband, we

446
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: can take those rounds and tie those back. Let's also

447
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: keep in mind that since she's crossed state lines at

448
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: this point in time, the FBI, the U S. Marshals,

449
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,719
Speaker 1: they're gonna bring their full force, So their laboratories are

450
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: going to be involved in this in collecting this information

451
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: and comparing, uh, comparing these rounds as it were. Uh.

452
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: This isn't just at a state level now, and so

453
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: they're gonna bring their full force of their forensic abilities

454
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: to this case and matching this up. And this is

455
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: pattern evidence, Nancy stunt stuff that that comes along as

456
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: a result of her continued behavior. I think that one

457
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: other thing we need to consider is, uh, is is

458
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: she going to do this again? And that's the frightening

459
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: part of this. But if she's using the same weapon,

460
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: we will have connectivity all the way through this from

461
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: Minnesota to Florida and then wherever she winds up. Hopefully

462
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: no one else will get hurt. Right now, a nationwide

463
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: search underway for a Minnesota woman accused of murdering her

464
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: husband and now her look alike, Lois Reese of Blooming Prairie, Minnesota,

465
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: believed to have murdered her husband, David Reese. Authorities now

466
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: believe Reese flees Minnesota and travels to Florida, where we

467
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: believe she murders her look like Pamela Hutchinson after video

468
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: emerges of re smiling and chatting up Hutchinson at the

469
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: Smoking Oyster Brewery Fort Myers before allegedly going home to

470
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: her condo with her and murdering her. We believe it

471
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: was all in an attempt to assume her Hutchinson's identity.

472
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: If you have information, call nine one one or eight

473
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: hundred seven eight zero eight four seven seven repeat eight

474
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: hundred seven eight zero tips, T I P S. Eight

475
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: hundred seven eight zero eight four seven seven Nancy As.

476
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: The U. S. Marshall Service has updated the Riese case

477
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: to a major case. It is now offering a reward

478
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: of up to five thousand dollars for information leading to

479
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,959
Speaker 1: her arrest, and the Florida Crimes Stoppers is also offering

480
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: a reward of up to a thousand dollars, So that's

481
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: a six thousand dollar reward if you can help them

482
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: catch this woman. Why us and race? You can run,

483
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: but you can't hide. Attention type to diabetics. If you

484
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Speaker 1: are a loved one has taken Invocana, invocommet or invo

485
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: commet x R or other inhibitors for type two diabetes

486
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: and suffered amputation of the toes, feet, or legs, you

487
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: may be entitled to substantial financial compensation. Act now for

488
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: a free consultation and free information, call Injury Help Desk

489
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Speaker 1: at eight hundred two four five four eight hundred two

490
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Speaker 1: four five forty nine oh four Call no. This is

491
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: an advertisements www dot Injury help dot com is responsible

492
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: for the advertisement principle of this. Las Vegas, Nevada. A

493
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: millionaire Atlanta lawyer in a prominent law firm on trial

494
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: for the murder of his wife. Right now. We are

495
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: heading into jury deliberations as we speak straight out to

496
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: Art Harris, Crime Stories investig At a reporter, Emmy Award

497
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: winning journalist Art Harris. Take it from the beginning, How

498
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: did Tex Mciver's wife end up dead? They're in the

499
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: suv heading home from his country farm and they pull

500
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: off downtown. Danny Joe Carter, his wife's best friend, is driving.

501
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: The wife is in the front seat in front of

502
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: Tex who's in the back seat. Text just wakes up

503
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: when they get off the expressway. It's been very crowded,

504
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: says this is not a good area. Give me my gun,

505
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: and his wife hands him his thirty eight, which he

506
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: keeps in the glove compartment. Texts, uh uh, he's holding it,

507
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: and suddenly he falls back asleep. According to what he's

508
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: told people. Uh, Danny Joe. At some point they're driving

509
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: through Atlanta. Wait, let me understand this. Let me understand this,

510
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: Mickey Sherman. He wakes up in the back seat and

511
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: they're in this suv. A friend of the family's driving.

512
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: The wife is in the front bucket seat, and he goes, WHOA,

513
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: why we're in a bad area of town. Pss is

514
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: where I lived the whole time I was a prosecutor.

515
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 1: I never thought it was a bad area anyway. So

516
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: he goes, w aboad area town, give me my gun.

517
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: So they take out, I believe, with thirty eight wrapped

518
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: in a Kroger grocery store plastic bag. They hand it

519
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: to him, and he's so afraid, Mickey Sherman, you're the

520
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: defense attorney that he falls back to sleep. You never

521
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: know what the jury is gonna buy. It's as simple

522
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 1: as that. The jury, very often, and you'll know you'll

523
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: agree with this, very often, takes the evidence in and

524
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: then decides that the prosecutors little below and the defense

525
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: attorney doesn't know what he what he's talking about, but

526
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: we're going to solve the crime. And he did this

527
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: and he did that, and that that's that could be

528
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: the situation here. Yeah, you know what, You're right. I

529
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: think juries just have a deep distrust of lawyers in general,

530
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: and they figure it out on their own. So Aret Harris, So,

531
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 1: he says, he falls back to sleep with the on

532
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: in his hand. What happens then, Nancy? He then uh

533
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: is awakened. Um as they're driving past Piedmont Park to stoplight,

534
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: UH and the gun goes off. Um. He says it's

535
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: in voluntary. He says, I just discharge the gun. Is

536
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: everybody okay? And his wife is not? Obviously. He reaches

537
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: around to hold her and then starts telling Danny Joe

538
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: the driver to head to Emory Hospital emergency room, which

539
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: is about eight minutes away, and the prosecutor made a

540
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: big deal of other hospitals were closer. He knew Emory. Anyway,

541
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: they're there, uh, and that is where the wife is

542
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: unloaded into a wheelchair, raised in UH. And one doctor

543
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: hears her say, uh, so did you shoot yourself? She

544
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: says no, I didn't, my husband did, but it was

545
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: an accident. And that that is pretty uh hangs in

546
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: the air, which you can't refuse. That's pretty over whelming

547
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 1: for the defense. And normally I'm siding with the state,

548
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: but for her to have said it was an accident.

549
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: On the other hand, what does she know? She was

550
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: sitting up front. She doesn't know what's going on in

551
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: the back seat. And later on they asked the victim

552
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: do you want to see your husband? And she says no,

553
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: as she's dying. So how do you know what kind

554
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: of influence do you put on that? Nancy? It's really tough. Um,

555
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: you know, getting back to the murdering charge. How do

556
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: you all of a sudden wake up as your wife

557
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: is taking an exit, as she's told the driver get

558
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: off your traffic spant, you wake up um asked for

559
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: the gun and then it goes off. How do you

560
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 1: premeditate that? I think that is that the whole they

561
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: have got to fill. Wait wait wait wait wait wait

562
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: wait wait Art, hold on, you may be this Emmy

563
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 1: Award winning journalist, but hold on. You have covered enough

564
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 1: murder cases to know that intent can be formed in

565
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, in the

566
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: time it takes for you to raise a gun and

567
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: pull the trigger. He may have decided right then and there,

568
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: here's my chance. Bam, all right. You don't need a

569
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: long drawn out plan from murder, such as poisoning or

570
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: lying in weight or hiring a hit man. Every bar

571
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: fight that ends in a shooting death would wouldn't count

572
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 1: anymore under your theory. If you can make that case

573
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: of a straight face, you would get a murder conviction here.

574
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: But I don't think that. But making the case right

575
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: now about the meaning of intent. But but I do

576
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: know this. I know that he was set up for

577
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: inheriting a four million dollar windfall from her estate to

578
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: pay off all of his massive debts. I know that

579
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: seemed about within one month. Vincent Hill with me. He's

580
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: been in court all day every day he had a

581
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: yard sale. Uh, that's one way to put it, at

582
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: a fancy boutique where he's sold about three hundred thousand

583
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,959
Speaker 1: dollars worth of her designer furs, boots, bags, jewelry within

584
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks after her death to raise money

585
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: for himself. Vincent, that's not a good look. You're absolutely right,

586
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: and Nancy, it's not a good look. And when I

587
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: watched the jury's face, especially the female jurors, when this

588
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: was presented by the prosecution, you know, they all had

589
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: the I can't believe he did that look on their face.

590
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: What kind of man sells his dead wife stuff so

591
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: fast after she's dead and you were the one that

592
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: killed her, so you know, it was an aha moment

593
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 1: right there for the prosecution when that came out. Well,

594
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: another issue is going to be his changing statements. Again,

595
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 1: that does not mean he did it, but Art Harris

596
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 1: his stories changed. He put out one spokesperson to say

597
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: one thing, then retracted it, changed the story, called people

598
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: left messages for them to lie to police. It's not

599
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: good Art Harris had and he changed his story. This

600
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: is a well known lawyer, he should know better. The

601
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: wind of the one thing that he did when they

602
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: got to the hospital. He tried to tell Danny, just

603
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: tell everybody you're a friend of the family. You just

604
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: showed up that you were not driving. That is the

605
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: one count that is the judge has ordered to stay in.

606
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: Other two others of influencing witnesses have been dropped. The

607
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: point about selling his wife's clothes and furs. That was

608
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: handled by a lawyer for the estate who testified flaude.

609
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: You know, I'm the one who gave him that advice

610
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: because I knew he had to pay these these bequests

611
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: wife had left in her will over three hundred thousand dollars.

612
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: He needed cash. These assets were losing value quickly, and

613
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: I told him to sell it. Guy named Stan Smith,

614
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: so that initial WHOA, you're talking about fur coats and

615
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: jewelry as assets that are going to lose value quickly.

616
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: What kind of line of b s are you trying

617
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: to sell the art I'm trying to the fur coat

618
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: is a fur coat man. The influence though that he

619
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: sold it for himself was a little misleading. The money

620
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: he got the money to pay okay, people whose wife

621
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: had left in her lill at the advom the advice

622
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,479
Speaker 1: of the estate lawyer. These are little things that the

623
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: defense has been nipping at along the way, and that's

624
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: why there's going to be a very challenging case for

625
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 1: the jury. First charged with malice murder, which is premeditated felony,

626
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: murder which is a death occurring during a felony which

627
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: would have been aggravated assault, possession of a firearm. The

628
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: guy had about forty five weapons, including multiple long guds

629
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: in his home. Man. That was a moment in court

630
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: when they brought in his home arsenal into the courtroom.

631
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: It also appears suspicion was raised due to his behavior

632
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: after his wife death. He reportedly instructs the witness is

633
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: Danny Joe Carter, who was driving the suv, to tell

634
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: cops she wasn't even in the car. Okay, that's not good.

635
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: He then leaves a voicemail for her husband implying that

636
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: Carter should quote cease communicating her recollections to law enforcement

637
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: because the statement's placed me, the defendant, in risk of

638
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: immediate carceration. I e. If you don't shut up, I'm

639
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: going to jail. That's another thing. He also text mc

640
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: ivor reportedly asked his friend Charles Crane to retract a

641
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: statement he made to the media after Crane said mc

642
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: ivor took his gun out because he thought they were

643
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: pulling up into a Black Lives Matter march and that

644
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: the gun went off when they hit a speed bump. Okay,

645
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: now we know that Diane handed him the gun and

646
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: and he was overheard by a nurse saying he was

647
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: cleaning the gun and it went off, cleaning the gun

648
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 1: in the back seat. So now we've got a fit

649
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: asleep apnea, we've got a Black Lives Matters march, we've

650
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: got blaming the homeless, and now we've got he's cleaning

651
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: his gun. Okay, art Uh, these are these are the

652
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: things that were not looking good. But he said he

653
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: was the nursing said he was cleaning the gun in

654
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: the bathroom, and two other nurses came on to say

655
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: they did not hear him say that at all. That

656
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: nurse was passing back quickly. But there were a lot

657
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: of contradictions. And this guy is not very smart, uh,

658
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: taking his own advice, uh, and constantly looking for the

659
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: reason why would he have a gun out? Uh? And

660
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,919
Speaker 1: why carried out? Oh? I forgot the carjack story. Hold on, wait,

661
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: then there was the carjack story where he thought they

662
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 1: were getting car jacked. But and then and then there's

663
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: the gun went off when they hit a bump. Let

664
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: me recare who has has these visions of of horror

665
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: and danger in downtown Atlanta going on in his head?

666
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: So he played to that. He played to that mentality,

667
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: But he certainly miscalculated that that was the reason he

668
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: was looking for an explanation of why he had the gun.

669
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: One thing they have missed, Nancy, and I don't pick

670
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 1: up on it, but his wife and Diane had been

671
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: drinking that night and she had passed a little wine

672
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: bag back and forth to clean her and texts in

673
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: the back seat. That drinking aspect has not come out

674
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: or factored into anything. And uh, you know, I am

675
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: just wondering why that. You know, that's something that when

676
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: I interviewed texts, he made a big deal out up

677
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: saying that, you know, he didn't like wine. Wine was

678
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: his wife's thing, uh, you know, suggesting to me he

679
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: hadn't been drinking that night. When a nurse later smelled

680
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: alcohol on his breath at the hospital. Art Harris, Art

681
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,479
Speaker 1: Harris what have I been telling you since I met

682
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: you back? And I don't know when the devil is

683
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: in the bottle art. That's a piece of advice that

684
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: you could do well to heed. Now I'm going to

685
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: go to the expert in this line of defense, Mickey Sherman.

686
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,919
Speaker 1: Of course. Uh, Mickey, defense lawyer, author of a book.

687
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: You can find that on Amazon. How can you defend

688
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: those people? You know, I'm not totally knocked over with

689
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: the state's case, but changing your story over and over, Hey,

690
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 1: he should have just shut the hay up, but be

691
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: he didn't, and he changed his story Mickey multiple times.

692
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 1: What happens if the case hits some some speed mumps

693
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: not the people, but the case did. There's just so many.

694
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: But the thing that I'm concerned with there is there

695
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: when the when someone asked what happened and the woman

696
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: said it was an accident. That's that's that's a that's

697
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: a character's statement as far as unconstra this character would

698
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: to say that I don't think he did it. I

699
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: agree with you, I agree with you. To me, that's

700
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: the most powerful defense I've heard so far. Uh. To

701
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: Karen Start New York psychologists, that's what the shooting victim said,

702
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 1: the wife said, but you know, then you got to

703
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,919
Speaker 1: take into account he had just taken out from his

704
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: wife a three hundred and fifty thousand dollars. It's very

705
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: confusing as a conundrum in in everything that's being described

706
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: because on the one hand, he does seem to have

707
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: the sweet problem, and um, there's not a lot of

708
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: evidence to support that he murdered her. But his behavior

709
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: and the contradictions that are her selling her stuff and

710
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: the fact that there's all this money involve that he

711
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: will Inherit makes you suspicious of what really happened. I

712
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: mean it accidental shooting. Then the wife doesn't want him

713
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: in there, but says it was an accident. This is

714
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: this is a very complicated case and difficult to try.

715
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: But really, what would she know she was in the

716
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: front seat. Um, take a listen to the state's main witness,

717
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,439
Speaker 1: Danny Carter, during direct testimony. The gun was right here,

718
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: and that's where it was when I had seen it before.

719
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: When he said, Darling, hand me my gun, Diane said, text,

720
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: I don't even know where your gun is, and he

721
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 1: said it's in the console. I saw a puppa smoke

722
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: and I could see his hand his hands, and I

723
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 1: could see the top of the gun. Diane turned around

724
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: like she turned around this way. She flung around, and

725
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: she says, text, what did you do? Kind of um

726
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: just hold. He was holding her head and saying, Diane, Diane.

727
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: But you know, contained take a listen to the state's

728
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: closing argument. Now I'm spending just the last few minutes

729
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: just talking to you for a minute about Diane Magaga.

730
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: Self made. She's from Alabama. We know she had no

731
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: biological family. She started out as a bookkeeper. She told Elane,

732
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 1: my greatest spear is to not have enough money to

733
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: live the kind of lifestyle I want to. She was

734
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 1: great with numbers, specialized in real estate, owned several companies,

735
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: president and CEO of US enterprises. She was a multi medionaire.

736
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: She had a sharp term but she loved awesome. She

737
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: had extravagant lifestyle. She wanted her personal loans for a lives.

738
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: She loved her Corey family, and she absolutely loves dannat

739
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: your card. They had the best friendship ever because if

740
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 1: Dannie Joe fell out of life, she took her back

741
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: and he had this real special bond together. In fact,

742
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: this thing affected them Joe so bad she took a

743
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: drink for the first time the night after Ryan Y,

744
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: I started at my presentation by asking you a question.

745
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: Who will stand for damage? Who will stand for Diamagon?

746
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: Carl Dane tried to stand up for herself in her

747
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 1: last greggy moments. Dr Susanne Hardy asked her a question.

748
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: Dr Susanne Hardy asked her a question, do you want

749
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: to see you that I might put this to Danny Mouth.

750
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: You're not gonna be able to speak. Dane knew she

751
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: was going. She said to it over and over again.

752
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: Am I dying? H Am I dying? We talked with folks,

753
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:08,760
Speaker 1: especially they know you know, And so she asked a question. Listen.

754
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: He told me that it was an accident. Do you

755
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: want to see you're listening? And she said, and here

756
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: is the defense. Did the state proof to you that

757
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: it was not an accident. Here's what they're saying to you.

758
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: Pay no attention to the reasonable doubts that you've heard

759
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: from Mr Samuel a list of at least six teams.

760
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: Pay no attention to those doubts, rely on speculation. And

761
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: I want to tell you that speculation is different than

762
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence. We do not convict people on the clouds

763
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: in fos of speculation, but on the bedrock of fact.

764
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: That's what we do. Maybe there was another will, search, warrants,

765
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: um gathering documents, every conceivable method was used to try

766
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 1: to bid bring you a second will. There wasn't one.

767
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: There's email traffic in two thousand and eleven, we're gonna

768
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: do it. Here's what we're talking about. We have an

769
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: agreeing on everything, and from two thousand and eleven to

770
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: the date this happened, there is no second will. There

771
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: was an advertisement taken out in the legal oregon of

772
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: Fulton County. Any law or anybody that knows anything about

773
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: a second will, come tell us, Come tell us you

774
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: prepared to come, tell us you saw Come tell us,

775
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: I've got it. Maybe there was another will, that's pure speculation.

776
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 1: Maybe she would foreclose on the loan. Well, there's not

777
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: a shred of evidence that she did or was going to.

778
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: In fact, it was rolled over. Maybe they argued in private, maybe,

779
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: but there's no evidence of that either. Maybe he had

780
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: another woman in his life and we've learned about all

781
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:18,720
Speaker 1: the speculation, but that's maybe. Again that's speculation. Maybe maybe maybe,

782
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: pay no attention to the proof of accident, rely on

783
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: our red herrings to reach your decision. That's what the

784
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: state's case has been in this case, nothing more than

785
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: the maybe's Again, this trial is an accident in search

786
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: of a motive, and it's a tale of innuendos and

787
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: undelivered promises. Each of you has the ability to say, well,

788
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: let's examine what everybody has said here what let's examine

789
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: what the evidence is in this case. And each of

790
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: you has the right to make an independent decision and say,

791
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 1: you know something, for me, the state just improve the

792
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: case for me. I'm not going to rely on all

793
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: the may beast for me, I don't believe the state

794
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,439
Speaker 1: proved their case. And you have the right to have

795
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: that opinion respected by your fellow jurors. So when you

796
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: go back to deliberating, we don't have a chance to

797
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 1: come back and talk to you or get some questions answered.

798
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 1: Somebody is going to have to say, well, what about this,

799
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: here's what I think. Respect my views as well. And

800
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,760
Speaker 1: when you do that, and you cut away all the maybes,

801
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,760
Speaker 1: and you cut away all the innuendos, and you cut

802
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: away all the undelivered promises your verdict should be not

803
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,760
Speaker 1: guilty as to all counts in this and the jury

804
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: deliberating Now Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend.

805
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,000
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806
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807
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811
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817
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