WEBVTT - Serial Killers & Murderous Minds Meets Betrayal | Ed Kemper Part 1 | BONUS 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.360 Hey everyone, Andrea here. You know I spend most of 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 my time on Betrayal Weekly, digging into stories of broken 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:10.960 trust and the damage it leaves behind. So when the 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:14.560 team at Serial Killers Murderous Minds asked me to guest 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.560 on a deep dive into Ed Kemper, I jumped at it. 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.680 This is a case I know well. A few years back, 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.400 I worked on a documentary called Kemper on Kemper, Sitting 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.200 with the psychology of one of the most notorious killers 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:30.560 in American history. Today, I'm sharing that episode with you. 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:35.720 I joined hosts Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist doctor Tristan 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:39.879 Engels to get into Kemper's story, a childhood defined by ridicule, 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:43.400 the rage that festered underneath, and the six young women 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.320 he murdered in nineteen seventies California before he turned on 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:51.440 the person who tormented him, most his own mother. A 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:57.200 heads up before we start. This episode contains discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia, 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:01.560 and animal violence. Please listen with care. Here's part one. 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.800 For part two of the episode, including a discussion between me, 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:08.880 Vanessa and doctor Engels. Follow serial Killers and Murderous Minds 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:10.840 wherever you listen to podcasts. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:19.639 This is crime House. 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.280 Some people have a keen sense of human nature. They 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:31.080 understand people's motives, fears, and behavioral patterns. Many use that 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.720 trait for good. They show their loved one support, set 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.920 their employees up for success, or simply avoid. 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:39.720 Anyone with toxic tendencies. 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:42.920 At the same time, some use their people skills for 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.480 selfish reasons. They get a sense of someone's tendencies and 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:51.080 exploit them, whether it's for money, sex, their own personal validation, 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.919 or something else. Ed Kemper was one of those people, 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:57.680 except he didn't just use others. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:57.960 To get ahead. 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:00.520 He used them to commit some of the most shocking 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:02.280 crimes America has ever seen. 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:04.840 And we shaped what we thought we knew about the 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:05.520 killer mind. 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.600 The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:26.040 feel love and hate, but sometimes it drives people to 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:30.480 commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.720 a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson. 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:37.040 And I'm forensic psychologist doctor Tristan Ingalls, And for the 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.840 next two episodes, Vanessa and I are thrilled to welcome 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:45.160 a very special guest, Andrea Gunning, host of the Betrayal 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:46.359 Weekly podcast. 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.840 Thanks for having me, of course, we're happy to have you. 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.480 We're thrilled for everyone listening. If you're not following Betrayal Weekly, 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.399 make sure to go do it now. Every week Andrea 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.640 shares first hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.840 the trail of destruction they leave behind. It's an absolute 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.519 must listen and I make sure to catch every episode. 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:10.320 Same here, Andrea. We love how you approach your cases, 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.200 and we are especially excited to have you on for 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.400 these episodes because you worked on a documentary on Ed 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.760 Kemper called Kemper on Kemper. Yes, that's right. 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.440 I work for Glass Entertainment Group and we produced a 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:27.480 documentary for Oxygen a few years back about Ed Kemper 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.560 called Kemper on Kemper, and we unpacked his crimes through 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.600 his own perspective, using his own words from his interviews. 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.640 With law enforcement. Amazing. We can't wait to get your 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.920 insights on this case. Over the next two episodes, Andrea 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.200 will introduce you to Ed Kemper. Then be sure to 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:45.360 stick around at the end of part two for an 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:49.000 extended conversation between Andrea and doctor Engels as they break 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:53.640 down what makes this case so fascinating and absolutely terrifying. 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:55.840 Before I hand it off, I want to mention that 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.440 crime House exists because of listeners like you want even more, 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.400 Join crime House Plus and get both parts of every 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.800 story dropped on the same Monday, completely ad free, no 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:09.120 waiting three days for part two, plus crime House bonus 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:13.360 episodes every month. To join, go to crimehouseplus dot com, 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.520 or if you listen on Apple podcasts, tap try Free 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.880 at the top of the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds page. 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.640 As we get started, be advised that this episode contains 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:29.200 discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia, and animal violence, so please 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.920 listen with care. Today, Vanessa and Doctor Engels begin their 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.920 deep dive into Ed Kemper, one of the most notorious 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:40.800 serial killers in American history. In nineteen seventies California, Ed 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:45.120 murdered at least six young female hitchhikers until finally turning 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.320 his rage on the person who tormented him, most his 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.799 own mother. And as vanessaa's through the story, Doctor Engels 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.000 will be talking about things like why a childhood defined 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:59.520 by ridicule can manifest in violence, how incarceration in early 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:04.479 adult can impact development. While some killers use complex post 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:08.200 mortem rituals to prolong the thrill, and as always they'll 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.080 be asking the question what makes a killer? 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.600 Violence was ingrained in ed Kemper from the moment he 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.040 came into the world. He was born in Burbank, California, 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:28.520 on December eighteenth, nineteen forty eight. His father, Edmund Kemper 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.560 the second, was a World War II Special Forces combat 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.680 veteran who went on to work as an electrician. His mother, Clarnel, 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.400 stayed home to care for ed and his two sisters, 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:43.159 Alan and Susan. Ed's dad was his hero. He reveled 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.760 in his war stories, including the ones about how he 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.200 killed enemy soldiers. Edmund thought it was good for his 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.679 son to hear those things. He believed he was teaching 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:56.119 him how to be a man, but Clarnel disapproved. In fact, 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:59.120 there wasn't much she agreed with her husband on. She 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.400 often berated Edmund for bringing home such a meager salary. 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.880 She desperately longed for a better life, and she used 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.600 alcohol to cope with the fact that she didn't have it. 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:13.240 Clarnel's drinking fueled her in Edmund's fights, and his behavior 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.839 wasn't much better. He often stormed out in a huff 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:20.120 and wouldn't return for days when he wasn't around. Clarnell 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:24.040 was especially harsh towards Ed. Whenever she lost her temper, 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.760 she beat him viciously. In Ed's mind, it was her 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.360 way of taking out her anger toward his dad. 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.640 Children learn how to communicate, express their emotions, and treat 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:39.080 others through what's modeled to them from their caregivers. It's 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:41.880 what we call social learning theory. And Ed is growing 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.279 up in an extremely volatile environment, so he's not getting 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:48.120 the best model of this, and the conflict in his 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.960 home is not just between his parents are interparental. It's 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:55.640 being displaced unto him as well. This environment can also 0:06:55.839 --> 0:07:00.760 create deficits with attachment. This is always critical to when 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.039 the people a child is meant to depend on for 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.360 safety and stability or also the source of harm or distress. 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.720 Living in an environment like this for a prolonged period 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.000 of time without any stabilizing adult can affect how Ed 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:18.400 approaches trust, intimacy, and emotional regulation. Now, Ed thinking that 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.119 his mother was taking her anger out on him makes sense. 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.240 He's a child who has been hearing and observing his 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:29.640 parent's conflict for years. Children often personalize interparental conflict because 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.520 they don't have the cognitive and emotional maturity to fully 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.559 understand the complexities of adult relationships or, in this case, 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.880 the impact alcohol can have on his mother's judgment or 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.760 her behavior. He's simply trying to understand why he's being punished, 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:46.920 and so he's using the information that's available to him. 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.680 But if he comes to believe that he is being 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.080 punished for problems that exists between his parents, that can 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:57.000 create resentment in multiple areas, Resentment toward his mother for 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.400 hurting him, resentment toward his father for not protecting him, 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.040 and resentment toward relationships in general, if they repeatedly become 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.280 associated with pain, conflict, or instability. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.440 By growing up in this kind of household, do you 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.280 think Ed was forced to bottle up his emotions And 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:15.440 if he was, how could that have impacted him in 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:16.160 the long run. 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:18.840 I don't know if he was necessarily forced to bottle 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.560 up his emotions, but he did later say that he 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:26.240 felt powerless. Children who grow up in explosive or unpredictable 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:30.320 households like this often internalize the belief that expressing certain 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.600 emotions isn't safe for them, and if a parent is 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:38.440 unpredictable or abusive. Children tend to stop expressing emotions because 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.800 they're either ignored, punished for it, or escalate a conflict somehow. 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:47.000 They don't understand what will set off their unpredictable caregiver, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.920 and their caregiver doesn't always communicate the connection between the 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.880 punishment and the behavior, so the child learns to shrink 0:08:54.960 --> 0:09:00.600 themselves to avoid being responsible for their reaction ed. Many 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.959 children become hypervigilant. They start reading the room and monitoring 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:07.760 the moods of others, and then pretty soon they've spent 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.920 most of their time focused on surviving their environment. They've 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.080 never learned to understand their own feelings, and that can 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:19.360 create difficulties with their own emotional regulation. And if you've 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:23.199 never learned to express your emotions, they don't just disappear. 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.120 They often build up, and that often leads to expressing 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:27.920 them later in unhealthy ways. 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:29.240 Well. 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:33.640 Eventually, Clarnel and Edmund divorced, but for ed the psychological 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.760 damage was already done. He was nine years old when 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.880 they separated, and he felt completely abandoned by his father, 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.320 the only person in the world who understood him. And 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.439 when he and his mom and siblings moved to Helena, Montana, 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:52.559 Ed started showing some dark tendencies. His resentment quickly morphed 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:58.000 into something more sinister. Ed started experiencing violent, elaborate fantasies 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:01.240 which he couldn't help but act off when no one 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:05.120 was looking. He stole his sister's dolls and removed their heads, 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.160 and as he stared down at their small, disfigured bodies, 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:13.000 he felt a sense of sexual enjoyment. Soon Ed was 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.000 chasing the thrill. He didn't just want to dismember dolls. 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.880 He wanted to cause real feelings of torture, so he 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:23.160 set his sights on the family cat. One day, Ed 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:27.040 buried the animal alive, and later he dug its body 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:31.839 back up and decapitated it. Afterward, Ed realized how much 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:34.520 he enjoyed the act of killing It didn't even need 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:36.800 to be elaborate for him to gain a sense of pleasure, 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.480 like on another occasion when he shot and killed the 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:44.640 neighbor's dog. Everyone who knew Ed found his entire demeanor disturbing, 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.800 including his sisters. They saw him as a troubling nuisance. 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.360 As a way to toy with him, they once pushed 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.640 him into a swimming pool even though they knew he 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:57.480 couldn't swim. Ed managed to get out safely, and he 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.400 wanted revenge. One day, as he cleaned his rifle in 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:04.720 the living room, Alan walked in. When Ed saw her, 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.160 he immediately fired his gun in her direction, hitting the 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:12.760 wall behind her. Ed pretended it was an accident. Eventually, 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.040 Clarnel had enough of Ed's behavior. She was afraid he'd 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.760 hurt his sisters at night while they slept, so she 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.240 set up a cot in the basement and forced Ed 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.200 to sleep down there. She even locked a door so 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.960 he couldn't get out. Ed was furious at his mother 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:30.839 for doing that to him, and his anger was worsened 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.560 by the fact that she openly mocked him. Clarnel made 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.120 fun of Ed for not having any friends. She told 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.679 him no girl would ever be interested in him. 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:45.959 Ed appears to be a child who is repeatedly experiencing fear, humiliation, 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:51.120 and powerlessness, and then responding in increasingly alarming and dangerous ways. 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:55.160 But arguably pushing him into a pool when he couldn't 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:59.280 swim and then walking away is alarming too. But with 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.360 Ed's beha behaviors, what's also concerning is the response he 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:08.040 gets in return, every time he's engaging in these alarming behaviors, 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.520 he doesn't seem to be taught healthier ways to regulate 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.240 the emotions that drove those behaviors to begin with. Instead, 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:19.319 he's met with more isolation, more rejection, and more humiliation. 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.880 Being forced to sleep in a wocked basement may have 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.960 solved an immediate safety concern, at least on the surface, 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:30.040 but there's nothing to address the actual behaviors themselves. There's 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:33.800 no conversation to understand why he did what he did. 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.560 Locking him in the basement just further isolated him and 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.680 likely alienated him or made him feel less valued, especially 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:45.839 if his sisters received no punishment for their behavior toward him. Then, 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.120 on top of that, his mother mocks him, tells him 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.160 he has no friends and that no girl will ever 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:55.480 want him. That's psychological abuse and that can compound. And 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.959 if she's doing this in front of his sisters or 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:02.120 with his sisters, then he's continued to feel rejected by 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.720 his entire family system, just after he was humiliated by 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:10.079 his sisters in the pool. These experiences, especially if consistent, 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.880 can build resentment, shame, and loneliness over time. Again, no 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.680 one seems to be helping ed understand or manage what 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:23.439 he's feeling. Everyone is reacting to his behavior, and understandably 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.200 because again it's concerning, it's very alarming, but no one 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.679 appears to be addressing the behavior itself or the emotions 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:31.400 underneath it. 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.800 In general, what can happen in the brain when a 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.920 child feels unloved and unwanted by their parents. 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:43.720 In general, the brain can begin interpreting feeling unloved, unwanted, 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.599 or chronically rejected as a threat to safety and survival. 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.839 Prolonged stress can keep the body's threat detection system activated 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.680 more often than it's supposed to be, making a child 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:59.160 more hypervigilant and sensitive to signs of rejection, criticism, or danger. 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:01.880 And it can also affect areas of the brain involved 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:06.760 in emotional regulation, decision making. In memory, for example, chronic 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.600 stress has been associated with a more reactive amigdola, which 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.520 is involved in fear and emotional processing. It's associated with 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.880 changes in the hippocampus, which plays a role in memory, 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.360 to name a few. Of course, it can get much 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.800 deeper than that, but those are just the broad strokes. 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.640 Not every child will experience these changes, and none of 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.560 this determines their outcome, but this is an example in 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.320 general of how chronic, prolonged stress can affect a developing brain. 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.800 By the time Ed was fourteen, he couldn't take it anymore. 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.800 He wanted to get far away from his mother, so 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:46.000 on Thanksgiving Day nineteen sixty three, he stole her car 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.000 and drove it to Butte, Montana, before catching a bus 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:52.600 to his father's house in Van Nuys, California. Ed was 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:54.600 hoping to move in with his dad and be free 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.040 of his mom for good, but when he got there, 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.640 he was in for a rude awakening. His father had 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.160 remarried and his new wife didn't want Ed living with them, 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.479 so his dad drove him to his paternal grandparents farmhouse. 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.560 Grandpa Ed and Grandma Maud took him in. It seemed 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.560 like a fresh start for Ed, but not everyone was 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:18.479 happy about it. When Claarnell learned what happened, she berated 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:21.160 her ex husband. She told him about how Ed had 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.720 killed their cat and the neighbor's dog. Then she said 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:30.000 Ed would kill his grandparents. Eventually, Claarnell's warnings fell on 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.520 deaf ears, and within weeks Ed developed the same rage 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.800 toward Maud that he felt toward his mother. Not only 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.840 was Maud extremely strict and refused to let him socialize 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.080 with other kids, but she openly complained about how much 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.480 it cost to take care of him. Ed's grandfather was 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.280 more sympathetic. He knew being a young man growing up 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.720 on a farm wasn't easy, so for Christmas, he gifted 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.400 Ed a twenty two caliber rifle to occupy his time. 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.119 He thought Ed could practice shooting small game on the property. 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:07.600 Ed was ecstatic for months, He killed whatever animals he 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:11.120 crossed paths with, but his grandparents were disturbed by all 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:14.600 the carcasses he left behind, so they briefly took the 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:19.120 gun away. However, Ed talked his grandfather into giving it back, 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.720 which turned out to be a tragic mistake. On August 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.360 twenty seventh, nineteen sixty four, Maud sat at the dining 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.080 room table writing on her typewriter. She had no idea 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:35.800 fifteen year old Ed was standing behind her, or that 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:40.680 he'd aimed his rifle directly at her. Without warning, Ed 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.080 pulled the trigger three times, hitting his grandmother in the 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.640 back and head. She died instantly. Afterward, Ed grabbed a 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:52.800 knife from the kitchen and stabbed her several times. Suddenly, 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.840 Ed noticed his grandfather's truck pulling up to the house. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.800 He couldn't bear the thought of his grandfather seeing what 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.880 he'd done, so he snuck up behind him and shot 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:07.280 him in the head. Immediately afterward. Ed knew what he'd 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.960 done was wrong and that he needed help, so he 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:14.080 turned to an unlikely source, his mother. He sobbed into 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:18.080 the receiver, admitting to his actions, and Clarnel called the police. 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.280 When they arrived, Ed was sitting on the front porch 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.760 waiting for them. Even though he knew what he'd done 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.240 was wrong, that didn't mean he felt bad about it. 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.639 He told officers, quote, I just wanted to see what 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.560 it felt like to kill grandma. 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.680 I just want to highlight that learning that his father 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.320 had a new family and that he wasn't welcome there 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.359 once he got there was another rejection for him, and 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.879 that's important and it's not something to gloss over now. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.439 When Ed says he wanted to see what it felt 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:51.200 like to kill his grandmother, I think that represents a 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:56.560 detachment from understanding, at least psychologically, the gravity of the act, 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.560 especially if he has spent a long time fantasized about it. 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:05.160 Fantasy driven offenders fantasize for a significant amount of time 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.320 before they act, and because of that, they can become 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:13.360 so focused on curiosity, experimentation, or rehearsal that they rarely 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:18.119 focus on appreciating the reality of their fantasy in practice, 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.280 or they've already been practicing on animals and there are 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.720 no real consequences that they can transfer to this experience. 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.120 And I think because of that, he had to confront 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.480 the reality of what he had done and face real 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.439 consequences for the first time in his life. But what 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.159 I find especially interesting in this moment is that after 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:42.720 he kills his grandparents, he then calls his mother. Despite 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:47.240 all resentment and conflict, She's still his mother. Children don't 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:51.040 simply stop needing their parents, even if their relationship with 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.280 them is unhealthy. He didn't call his father, he called 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.919 her in moments of crisis. It's actually very common for 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.160 people to reach for familiar attachment figures. 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.080 What do you think it says about Ed that he 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:06.639 confessed so quickly. I mean, he just sat there waiting 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.000 and he said, you know, I did it. I just 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:09.560 wanted to see what it felt like. Do you think 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.399 it's possible that the entire incident was maybe just a 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:13.160 cry for help. 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.720 A cry for help usually implies that the person consciously 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.639 intended for someone to intervene before something happened, and I 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.399 don't know that that's what this is. I think that 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.800 it's true that Ed was at a breaking point. Throughout 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:33.800 his childhood, He's repeatedly experienced conflict, rejection, humiliation, isolation, and 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:38.800 increasingly concerning behavior, which you've highlighted for us. But then 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.520 after killing his parents, he calls his mother for direction. 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.800 She calls the police and tells him to wait for them. 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.199 He listens. In this moment, like we talked about the 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.919 weight of the reality setting in, Ed is a teenager 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.200 and the only place he has to go is back 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.760 with his mother. His father wasn't going to accept him. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.440 So it's possible, and again this is because I've never 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:05.560 evaluated at myself, but it's possible that he chose to 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.560 confess to his mother and follow her directions because he 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.800 knew she was his only practical and realistic option in 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.240 that moment. And if you recall from his childhood, we've 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.399 talked about how children who grow up with unpredictable and 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:23.760 volatile parents sometimes learn that obedience, compliance, or appeasement can 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.919 help them navigate those relationships more safely, So confessing and 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.520 following her instructions could be a reflection of that, especially 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.560 because he depends on her heavily. Right now. He doesn't 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:36.800 know what's going to happen after the police get there. 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:39.439 That's what his mother is for, and at the end 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.440 of the day, he's a teenager with no money, no resources, 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:43.640 and nowhere else to go. 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.480 Whether or not Ed regretted what he'd done, he certainly 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.760 regretted where it landed him. Because he was just fifteen 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.200 at the time of the murders, he wasn't charged as 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.240 an adult, but clearly the court saw something was deeply 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.560 wrong with him, so instead he was found to be 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.439 mentally ill and committed to the Atascadero State Hospital for 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:07.399 the Criminally Insane, which housed and treated around one thousand, 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:11.320 six hundred mentally ill prisoners. The remaining years of Ed's 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.719 young adulthood would now be spent among violent criminals and 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:19.520 sex offenders, and he planned to learn everything he could 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:29.600 from them. In nineteen sixty four, fifteen year old Ed 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:32.600 Kemper was sent to a Tascadero State Hospital for the 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:37.480 Criminally Insane after killing his grandparents. When he arrived, Ed 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:41.280 underwent a series of psychological evaluations. At first, he was 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:45.280 diagnosed with schizophrenia, but Ed's doctors were also fascinated to 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:49.040 discover he had an unusually high IQ, and as they 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:53.199 ran more tests, they began to question their diagnosis. Ed 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:56.760 didn't show signs of delusions or hallucinations like they expected. 0:21:57.119 --> 0:21:59.920 He didn't show any evidence of unusual thought patterns either, 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:02.919 so they struggled to form a clear understanding of his 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:08.119 mind's inner workings. But Ed was learning a lot about them. 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.440 Throughout all the tests. He paid close attention to the 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:15.119 terminology doctors used. He also noticed that the more interest 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:17.760 he showed in his own mental health, the more they 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:22.520 explained to him, and eventually he earned their trust. Ed's 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:25.960 doctors enlisted his help testing other patients. He even helped 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:29.119 develop new tests to the doctors. This was a major 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:33.239 sign of rehabilitation. In reality, Ed had figured out what 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:37.280 doctors needed to hear to deem someone fit to rejoin society. 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:41.840 He memorized all the right responses, and eventually he tricked 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.720 his doctors into believing he was well enough to leave. 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:48.480 In nineteen sixty nine, when Ed was twenty one, he 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:52.560 was officially released on parole after five years at the hospital. 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:56.240 But even after his release, he wasn't totally free because 0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:58.399 he had no choice but to move back in with 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:04.240 his mother, Clairenell. Ed's mom had moved to California. She 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.399 worked at the University of California, Santa Cruz. She was 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:09.600 even more resentful toward him now that he was a 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:14.199 convicted murderer and had killed their own family members. Ed 0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:17.280 tried to find a silver lining to his new living situation. 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:20.920 In the early nineteen seventies, the Ocean Front community was 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:25.240 a hub for college students, hippies, and surfers. The free spirited, 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:28.600 liberated lifestyle was the total opposite of what Ed had 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:32.480 just experienced for the last five years. Ed did his 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:34.720 best to adapt, but he didn't have much of a 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:37.760 social life. His main goal was to become a police 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:41.280 officer at the mental hospital. He'd enjoyed having even just 0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:44.800 a little power over the other patients, so he chased 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:48.240 that feeling. He started going to local police hangouts to 0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:50.720 chat them up and try and get into their good graces. 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:53.359 Ed felt like he had a shot at becoming an 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:58.159 officer because his juvenile records were sealed. However, things didn't 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.399 go his way. He was denied because he exceeded the 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:05.720 height and weight limits. Ed was massive. He stood at 0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:10.280 six foot nine, weighing nearly three hundred pounds, and his 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.960 appearance didn't just cost him jobs, it made dating even 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:17.600