Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Andrea here. You know I spend most of
Speaker 1: my time on Betrayal Weekly, digging into stories of broken
Speaker 1: trust and the damage it leaves behind. So when the
Speaker 1: team at Serial Killers Murderous Minds asked me to guest
Speaker 1: on a deep dive into Ed Kemper, I jumped at it.
Speaker 1: This is a case I know well. A few years back,
Speaker 1: I worked on a documentary called Kemper on Kemper, Sitting
Speaker 1: with the psychology of one of the most notorious killers
Speaker 1: in American history. Today, I'm sharing that episode with you.
Speaker 1: I joined hosts Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist doctor Tristan
Speaker 1: Engels to get into Kemper's story, a childhood defined by ridicule,
Speaker 1: the rage that festered underneath, and the six young women
Speaker 1: he murdered in nineteen seventies California before he turned on
Speaker 1: the person who tormented him, most his own mother. A
Speaker 1: heads up before we start. This episode contains discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia,
Speaker 1: and animal violence. Please listen with care. Here's part one.
Speaker 1: For part two of the episode, including a discussion between me,
Speaker 1: Vanessa and doctor Engels. Follow serial Killers and Murderous Minds
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2: This is crime House.
Speaker 1: Some people have a keen sense of human nature. They
Speaker 1: understand people's motives, fears, and behavioral patterns. Many use that
Speaker 1: trait for good. They show their loved one support, set
Speaker 1: their employees up for success, or simply avoid.
Speaker 3: Anyone with toxic tendencies.
Speaker 1: At the same time, some use their people skills for
Speaker 1: selfish reasons. They get a sense of someone's tendencies and
Speaker 1: exploit them, whether it's for money, sex, their own personal validation,
Speaker 1: or something else. Ed Kemper was one of those people,
Speaker 1: except he didn't just use others.
Speaker 2: To get ahead.
Speaker 1: He used them to commit some of the most shocking
Speaker 1: crimes America has ever seen.
Speaker 3: And we shaped what we thought we knew about the
Speaker 3: killer mind.
Speaker 2: The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think,
Speaker 2: feel love and hate, but sometimes it drives people to
Speaker 2: commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds,
Speaker 2: a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
Speaker 3: And I'm forensic psychologist doctor Tristan Ingalls, And for the
Speaker 3: next two episodes, Vanessa and I are thrilled to welcome
Speaker 3: a very special guest, Andrea Gunning, host of the Betrayal
Speaker 3: Weekly podcast.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, of course, we're happy to have you.
Speaker 2: We're thrilled for everyone listening. If you're not following Betrayal Weekly,
Speaker 2: make sure to go do it now. Every week Andrea
Speaker 2: shares first hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and
Speaker 2: the trail of destruction they leave behind. It's an absolute
Speaker 2: must listen and I make sure to catch every episode.
Speaker 3: Same here, Andrea. We love how you approach your cases,
Speaker 3: and we are especially excited to have you on for
Speaker 3: these episodes because you worked on a documentary on Ed
Speaker 3: Kemper called Kemper on Kemper. Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1: I work for Glass Entertainment Group and we produced a
Speaker 1: documentary for Oxygen a few years back about Ed Kemper
Speaker 1: called Kemper on Kemper, and we unpacked his crimes through
Speaker 1: his own perspective, using his own words from his interviews.
Speaker 2: With law enforcement. Amazing. We can't wait to get your
Speaker 2: insights on this case. Over the next two episodes, Andrea
Speaker 2: will introduce you to Ed Kemper. Then be sure to
Speaker 2: stick around at the end of part two for an
Speaker 2: extended conversation between Andrea and doctor Engels as they break
Speaker 2: down what makes this case so fascinating and absolutely terrifying.
Speaker 2: Before I hand it off, I want to mention that
Speaker 2: crime House exists because of listeners like you want even more,
Speaker 2: Join crime House Plus and get both parts of every
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Speaker 2: at the top of the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds page.
Speaker 1: As we get started, be advised that this episode contains
Speaker 1: discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia, and animal violence, so please
Speaker 1: listen with care. Today, Vanessa and Doctor Engels begin their
Speaker 1: deep dive into Ed Kemper, one of the most notorious
Speaker 1: serial killers in American history. In nineteen seventies California, Ed
Speaker 1: murdered at least six young female hitchhikers until finally turning
Speaker 1: his rage on the person who tormented him, most his
Speaker 1: own mother. And as vanessaa's through the story, Doctor Engels
Speaker 1: will be talking about things like why a childhood defined
Speaker 1: by ridicule can manifest in violence, how incarceration in early
Speaker 1: adult can impact development. While some killers use complex post
Speaker 1: mortem rituals to prolong the thrill, and as always they'll
Speaker 1: be asking the question what makes a killer?
Speaker 2: Violence was ingrained in ed Kemper from the moment he
Speaker 2: came into the world. He was born in Burbank, California,
Speaker 2: on December eighteenth, nineteen forty eight. His father, Edmund Kemper
Speaker 2: the second, was a World War II Special Forces combat
Speaker 2: veteran who went on to work as an electrician. His mother, Clarnel,
Speaker 2: stayed home to care for ed and his two sisters,
Speaker 2: Alan and Susan. Ed's dad was his hero. He reveled
Speaker 2: in his war stories, including the ones about how he
Speaker 2: killed enemy soldiers. Edmund thought it was good for his
Speaker 2: son to hear those things. He believed he was teaching
Speaker 2: him how to be a man, but Clarnel disapproved. In fact,
Speaker 2: there wasn't much she agreed with her husband on. She
Speaker 2: often berated Edmund for bringing home such a meager salary.
Speaker 2: She desperately longed for a better life, and she used
Speaker 2: alcohol to cope with the fact that she didn't have it.
Speaker 2: Clarnel's drinking fueled her in Edmund's fights, and his behavior
Speaker 2: wasn't much better. He often stormed out in a huff
Speaker 2: and wouldn't return for days when he wasn't around. Clarnell
Speaker 2: was especially harsh towards Ed. Whenever she lost her temper,
Speaker 2: she beat him viciously. In Ed's mind, it was her
Speaker 2: way of taking out her anger toward his dad.
Speaker 3: Children learn how to communicate, express their emotions, and treat
Speaker 3: others through what's modeled to them from their caregivers. It's
Speaker 3: what we call social learning theory. And Ed is growing
Speaker 3: up in an extremely volatile environment, so he's not getting
Speaker 3: the best model of this, and the conflict in his
Speaker 3: home is not just between his parents are interparental. It's
Speaker 3: being displaced unto him as well. This environment can also
Speaker 3: create deficits with attachment. This is always critical to when
Speaker 3: the people a child is meant to depend on for
Speaker 3: safety and stability or also the source of harm or distress.
Speaker 3: Living in an environment like this for a prolonged period
Speaker 3: of time without any stabilizing adult can affect how Ed
Speaker 3: approaches trust, intimacy, and emotional regulation. Now, Ed thinking that
Speaker 3: his mother was taking her anger out on him makes sense.
Speaker 3: He's a child who has been hearing and observing his
Speaker 3: parent's conflict for years. Children often personalize interparental conflict because
Speaker 3: they don't have the cognitive and emotional maturity to fully
Speaker 3: understand the complexities of adult relationships or, in this case,
Speaker 3: the impact alcohol can have on his mother's judgment or
Speaker 3: her behavior. He's simply trying to understand why he's being punished,
Speaker 3: and so he's using the information that's available to him.
Speaker 3: But if he comes to believe that he is being
Speaker 3: punished for problems that exists between his parents, that can
Speaker 3: create resentment in multiple areas, Resentment toward his mother for
Speaker 3: hurting him, resentment toward his father for not protecting him,
Speaker 3: and resentment toward relationships in general, if they repeatedly become
Speaker 3: associated with pain, conflict, or instability.
Speaker 2: By growing up in this kind of household, do you
Speaker 2: think Ed was forced to bottle up his emotions And
Speaker 2: if he was, how could that have impacted him in
Speaker 2: the long run.
Speaker 3: I don't know if he was necessarily forced to bottle
Speaker 3: up his emotions, but he did later say that he
Speaker 3: felt powerless. Children who grow up in explosive or unpredictable
Speaker 3: households like this often internalize the belief that expressing certain
Speaker 3: emotions isn't safe for them, and if a parent is
Speaker 3: unpredictable or abusive. Children tend to stop expressing emotions because
Speaker 3: they're either ignored, punished for it, or escalate a conflict somehow.
Speaker 3: They don't understand what will set off their unpredictable caregiver,
Speaker 3: and their caregiver doesn't always communicate the connection between the
Speaker 3: punishment and the behavior, so the child learns to shrink
Speaker 3: themselves to avoid being responsible for their reaction ed. Many
Speaker 3: children become hypervigilant. They start reading the room and monitoring
Speaker 3: the moods of others, and then pretty soon they've spent
Speaker 3: most of their time focused on surviving their environment. They've
Speaker 3: never learned to understand their own feelings, and that can
Speaker 3: create difficulties with their own emotional regulation. And if you've
Speaker 3: never learned to express your emotions, they don't just disappear.
Speaker 3: They often build up, and that often leads to expressing
Speaker 3: them later in unhealthy ways.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: Eventually, Clarnel and Edmund divorced, but for ed the psychological
Speaker 2: damage was already done. He was nine years old when
Speaker 2: they separated, and he felt completely abandoned by his father,
Speaker 2: the only person in the world who understood him. And
Speaker 2: when he and his mom and siblings moved to Helena, Montana,
Speaker 2: Ed started showing some dark tendencies. His resentment quickly morphed
Speaker 2: into something more sinister. Ed started experiencing violent, elaborate fantasies
Speaker 2: which he couldn't help but act off when no one
Speaker 2: was looking. He stole his sister's dolls and removed their heads,
Speaker 2: and as he stared down at their small, disfigured bodies,
Speaker 2: he felt a sense of sexual enjoyment. Soon Ed was
Speaker 2: chasing the thrill. He didn't just want to dismember dolls.
Speaker 2: He wanted to cause real feelings of torture, so he
Speaker 2: set his sights on the family cat. One day, Ed
Speaker 2: buried the animal alive, and later he dug its body
Speaker 2: back up and decapitated it. Afterward, Ed realized how much
Speaker 2: he enjoyed the act of killing It didn't even need
Speaker 2: to be elaborate for him to gain a sense of pleasure,
Speaker 2: like on another occasion when he shot and killed the
Speaker 2: neighbor's dog. Everyone who knew Ed found his entire demeanor disturbing,
Speaker 2: including his sisters. They saw him as a troubling nuisance.
Speaker 2: As a way to toy with him, they once pushed
Speaker 2: him into a swimming pool even though they knew he
Speaker 2: couldn't swim. Ed managed to get out safely, and he
Speaker 2: wanted revenge. One day, as he cleaned his rifle in
Speaker 2: the living room, Alan walked in. When Ed saw her,
Speaker 2: he immediately fired his gun in her direction, hitting the
Speaker 2: wall behind her. Ed pretended it was an accident. Eventually,
Speaker 2: Clarnel had enough of Ed's behavior. She was afraid he'd
Speaker 2: hurt his sisters at night while they slept, so she
Speaker 2: set up a cot in the basement and forced Ed
Speaker 2: to sleep down there. She even locked a door so
Speaker 2: he couldn't get out. Ed was furious at his mother
Speaker 2: for doing that to him, and his anger was worsened
Speaker 2: by the fact that she openly mocked him. Clarnel made
Speaker 2: fun of Ed for not having any friends. She told
Speaker 2: him no girl would ever be interested in him.
Speaker 3: Ed appears to be a child who is repeatedly experiencing fear, humiliation,
Speaker 3: and powerlessness, and then responding in increasingly alarming and dangerous ways.
Speaker 3: But arguably pushing him into a pool when he couldn't
Speaker 3: swim and then walking away is alarming too. But with
Speaker 3: Ed's beha behaviors, what's also concerning is the response he
Speaker 3: gets in return, every time he's engaging in these alarming behaviors,
Speaker 3: he doesn't seem to be taught healthier ways to regulate
Speaker 3: the emotions that drove those behaviors to begin with. Instead,
Speaker 3: he's met with more isolation, more rejection, and more humiliation.
Speaker 3: Being forced to sleep in a wocked basement may have
Speaker 3: solved an immediate safety concern, at least on the surface,
Speaker 3: but there's nothing to address the actual behaviors themselves. There's
Speaker 3: no conversation to understand why he did what he did.
Speaker 3: Locking him in the basement just further isolated him and
Speaker 3: likely alienated him or made him feel less valued, especially
Speaker 3: if his sisters received no punishment for their behavior toward him. Then,
Speaker 3: on top of that, his mother mocks him, tells him
Speaker 3: he has no friends and that no girl will ever
Speaker 3: want him. That's psychological abuse and that can compound. And
Speaker 3: if she's doing this in front of his sisters or
Speaker 3: with his sisters, then he's continued to feel rejected by
Speaker 3: his entire family system, just after he was humiliated by
Speaker 3: his sisters in the pool. These experiences, especially if consistent,
Speaker 3: can build resentment, shame, and loneliness over time. Again, no
Speaker 3: one seems to be helping ed understand or manage what
Speaker 3: he's feeling. Everyone is reacting to his behavior, and understandably
Speaker 3: because again it's concerning, it's very alarming, but no one
Speaker 3: appears to be addressing the behavior itself or the emotions
Speaker 3: underneath it.
Speaker 2: In general, what can happen in the brain when a
Speaker 2: child feels unloved and unwanted by their parents.
Speaker 3: In general, the brain can begin interpreting feeling unloved, unwanted,
Speaker 3: or chronically rejected as a threat to safety and survival.
Speaker 3: Prolonged stress can keep the body's threat detection system activated
Speaker 3: more often than it's supposed to be, making a child
Speaker 3: more hypervigilant and sensitive to signs of rejection, criticism, or danger.
Speaker 3: And it can also affect areas of the brain involved
Speaker 3: in emotional regulation, decision making. In memory, for example, chronic
Speaker 3: stress has been associated with a more reactive amigdola, which
Speaker 3: is involved in fear and emotional processing. It's associated with
Speaker 3: changes in the hippocampus, which plays a role in memory,
Speaker 3: to name a few. Of course, it can get much
Speaker 3: deeper than that, but those are just the broad strokes.
Speaker 3: Not every child will experience these changes, and none of
Speaker 3: this determines their outcome, but this is an example in
Speaker 3: general of how chronic, prolonged stress can affect a developing brain.
Speaker 2: By the time Ed was fourteen, he couldn't take it anymore.
Speaker 2: He wanted to get far away from his mother, so
Speaker 2: on Thanksgiving Day nineteen sixty three, he stole her car
Speaker 2: and drove it to Butte, Montana, before catching a bus
Speaker 2: to his father's house in Van Nuys, California. Ed was
Speaker 2: hoping to move in with his dad and be free
Speaker 2: of his mom for good, but when he got there,
Speaker 2: he was in for a rude awakening. His father had
Speaker 2: remarried and his new wife didn't want Ed living with them,
Speaker 2: so his dad drove him to his paternal grandparents farmhouse.
Speaker 2: Grandpa Ed and Grandma Maud took him in. It seemed
Speaker 2: like a fresh start for Ed, but not everyone was
Speaker 2: happy about it. When Claarnell learned what happened, she berated
Speaker 2: her ex husband. She told him about how Ed had
Speaker 2: killed their cat and the neighbor's dog. Then she said
Speaker 2: Ed would kill his grandparents. Eventually, Claarnell's warnings fell on
Speaker 2: deaf ears, and within weeks Ed developed the same rage
Speaker 2: toward Maud that he felt toward his mother. Not only
Speaker 2: was Maud extremely strict and refused to let him socialize
Speaker 2: with other kids, but she openly complained about how much
Speaker 2: it cost to take care of him. Ed's grandfather was
Speaker 2: more sympathetic. He knew being a young man growing up
Speaker 2: on a farm wasn't easy, so for Christmas, he gifted
Speaker 2: Ed a twenty two caliber rifle to occupy his time.
Speaker 2: He thought Ed could practice shooting small game on the property.
Speaker 2: Ed was ecstatic for months, He killed whatever animals he
Speaker 2: crossed paths with, but his grandparents were disturbed by all
Speaker 2: the carcasses he left behind, so they briefly took the
Speaker 2: gun away. However, Ed talked his grandfather into giving it back,
Speaker 2: which turned out to be a tragic mistake. On August
Speaker 2: twenty seventh, nineteen sixty four, Maud sat at the dining
Speaker 2: room table writing on her typewriter. She had no idea
Speaker 2: fifteen year old Ed was standing behind her, or that
Speaker 2: he'd aimed his rifle directly at her. Without warning, Ed
Speaker 2: pulled the trigger three times, hitting his grandmother in the
Speaker 2: back and head. She died instantly. Afterward, Ed grabbed a
Speaker 2: knife from the kitchen and stabbed her several times. Suddenly,
Speaker 2: Ed noticed his grandfather's truck pulling up to the house.
Speaker 2: He couldn't bear the thought of his grandfather seeing what
Speaker 2: he'd done, so he snuck up behind him and shot
Speaker 2: him in the head. Immediately afterward. Ed knew what he'd
Speaker 2: done was wrong and that he needed help, so he
Speaker 2: turned to an unlikely source, his mother. He sobbed into
Speaker 2: the receiver, admitting to his actions, and Clarnel called the police.
Speaker 2: When they arrived, Ed was sitting on the front porch
Speaker 2: waiting for them. Even though he knew what he'd done
Speaker 2: was wrong, that didn't mean he felt bad about it.
Speaker 2: He told officers, quote, I just wanted to see what
Speaker 2: it felt like to kill grandma.
Speaker 3: I just want to highlight that learning that his father
Speaker 3: had a new family and that he wasn't welcome there
Speaker 3: once he got there was another rejection for him, and
Speaker 3: that's important and it's not something to gloss over now.
Speaker 3: When Ed says he wanted to see what it felt
Speaker 3: like to kill his grandmother, I think that represents a
Speaker 3: detachment from understanding, at least psychologically, the gravity of the act,
Speaker 3: especially if he has spent a long time fantasized about it.
Speaker 3: Fantasy driven offenders fantasize for a significant amount of time
Speaker 3: before they act, and because of that, they can become
Speaker 3: so focused on curiosity, experimentation, or rehearsal that they rarely
Speaker 3: focus on appreciating the reality of their fantasy in practice,
Speaker 3: or they've already been practicing on animals and there are
Speaker 3: no real consequences that they can transfer to this experience.
Speaker 3: And I think because of that, he had to confront
Speaker 3: the reality of what he had done and face real
Speaker 3: consequences for the first time in his life. But what
Speaker 3: I find especially interesting in this moment is that after
Speaker 3: he kills his grandparents, he then calls his mother. Despite
Speaker 3: all resentment and conflict, She's still his mother. Children don't
Speaker 3: simply stop needing their parents, even if their relationship with
Speaker 3: them is unhealthy. He didn't call his father, he called
Speaker 3: her in moments of crisis. It's actually very common for
Speaker 3: people to reach for familiar attachment figures.
Speaker 2: What do you think it says about Ed that he
Speaker 2: confessed so quickly. I mean, he just sat there waiting
Speaker 2: and he said, you know, I did it. I just
Speaker 2: wanted to see what it felt like. Do you think
Speaker 2: it's possible that the entire incident was maybe just a
Speaker 2: cry for help.
Speaker 3: A cry for help usually implies that the person consciously
Speaker 3: intended for someone to intervene before something happened, and I
Speaker 3: don't know that that's what this is. I think that
Speaker 3: it's true that Ed was at a breaking point. Throughout
Speaker 3: his childhood, He's repeatedly experienced conflict, rejection, humiliation, isolation, and
Speaker 3: increasingly concerning behavior, which you've highlighted for us. But then
Speaker 3: after killing his parents, he calls his mother for direction.
Speaker 3: She calls the police and tells him to wait for them.
Speaker 3: He listens. In this moment, like we talked about the
Speaker 3: weight of the reality setting in, Ed is a teenager
Speaker 3: and the only place he has to go is back
Speaker 3: with his mother. His father wasn't going to accept him.
Speaker 3: So it's possible, and again this is because I've never
Speaker 3: evaluated at myself, but it's possible that he chose to
Speaker 3: confess to his mother and follow her directions because he
Speaker 3: knew she was his only practical and realistic option in
Speaker 3: that moment. And if you recall from his childhood, we've
Speaker 3: talked about how children who grow up with unpredictable and
Speaker 3: volatile parents sometimes learn that obedience, compliance, or appeasement can
Speaker 3: help them navigate those relationships more safely, So confessing and
Speaker 3: following her instructions could be a reflection of that, especially
Speaker 3: because he depends on her heavily. Right now. He doesn't
Speaker 3: know what's going to happen after the police get there.
Speaker 3: That's what his mother is for, and at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, he's a teenager with no money, no resources,
Speaker 3: and nowhere else to go.
Speaker 2: Whether or not Ed regretted what he'd done, he certainly
Speaker 2: regretted where it landed him. Because he was just fifteen
Speaker 2: at the time of the murders, he wasn't charged as
Speaker 2: an adult, but clearly the court saw something was deeply
Speaker 2: wrong with him, so instead he was found to be
Speaker 2: mentally ill and committed to the Atascadero State Hospital for
Speaker 2: the Criminally Insane, which housed and treated around one thousand,
Speaker 2: six hundred mentally ill prisoners. The remaining years of Ed's
Speaker 2: young adulthood would now be spent among violent criminals and
Speaker 2: sex offenders, and he planned to learn everything he could
Speaker 2: from them. In nineteen sixty four, fifteen year old Ed
Speaker 2: Kemper was sent to a Tascadero State Hospital for the
Speaker 2: Criminally Insane after killing his grandparents. When he arrived, Ed
Speaker 2: underwent a series of psychological evaluations. At first, he was
Speaker 2: diagnosed with schizophrenia, but Ed's doctors were also fascinated to
Speaker 2: discover he had an unusually high IQ, and as they
Speaker 2: ran more tests, they began to question their diagnosis. Ed
Speaker 2: didn't show signs of delusions or hallucinations like they expected.
Speaker 2: He didn't show any evidence of unusual thought patterns either,
Speaker 2: so they struggled to form a clear understanding of his
Speaker 2: mind's inner workings. But Ed was learning a lot about them.
Speaker 2: Throughout all the tests. He paid close attention to the
Speaker 2: terminology doctors used. He also noticed that the more interest
Speaker 2: he showed in his own mental health, the more they
Speaker 2: explained to him, and eventually he earned their trust. Ed's
Speaker 2: doctors enlisted his help testing other patients. He even helped
Speaker 2: develop new tests to the doctors. This was a major
Speaker 2: sign of rehabilitation. In reality, Ed had figured out what
Speaker 2: doctors needed to hear to deem someone fit to rejoin society.
Speaker 2: He memorized all the right responses, and eventually he tricked
Speaker 2: his doctors into believing he was well enough to leave.
Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty nine, when Ed was twenty one, he
Speaker 2: was officially released on parole after five years at the hospital.
Speaker 2: But even after his release, he wasn't totally free because
Speaker 2: he had no choice but to move back in with
Speaker 2: his mother, Clairenell. Ed's mom had moved to California. She
Speaker 2: worked at the University of California, Santa Cruz. She was
Speaker 2: even more resentful toward him now that he was a
Speaker 2: convicted murderer and had killed their own family members. Ed
Speaker 2: tried to find a silver lining to his new living situation.
Speaker 2: In the early nineteen seventies, the Ocean Front community was
Speaker 2: a hub for college students, hippies, and surfers. The free spirited,
Speaker 2: liberated lifestyle was the total opposite of what Ed had
Speaker 2: just experienced for the last five years. Ed did his
Speaker 2: best to adapt, but he didn't have much of a
Speaker 2: social life. His main goal was to become a police
Speaker 2: officer at the mental hospital. He'd enjoyed having even just
Speaker 2: a little power over the other patients, so he chased
Speaker 2: that feeling. He started going to local police hangouts to
Speaker 2: chat them up and try and get into their good graces.
Speaker 2: Ed felt like he had a shot at becoming an
Speaker 2: officer because his juvenile records were sealed. However, things didn't
Speaker 2: go his way. He was denied because he exceeded the
Speaker 2: height and weight limits. Ed was massive. He stood at
Speaker 2: six foot nine, weighing nearly three hundred pounds, and his
Speaker 2: appearance didn't just cost him jobs, it made dating even
Speaker 2: more difficult. Sometimes women got startled or even screamed when
Speaker 2: they saw him simply because of his size. It made
Speaker 2: Ed feel like he wasn't even human.
Speaker 3: If Ed has spent years being rejected and humiliated and
Speaker 3: mocked by his mother, who repeatedly told him that no
Speaker 3: woman would ever want him, and if he's experienced similar
Speaker 3: ridicule from his sisters, then this can feel like cumulative rejection.
Speaker 3: And that's especially concerning when you pair it with his
Speaker 3: interests in power and his history of violence. That's a
Speaker 3: risky combination because healthy relationships require vulnerability, consent, and an
Speaker 3: understanding of autonomy. Power. On the other hand, something that
Speaker 3: he's interested in can allow tell someone to believe that
Speaker 3: they can bypass all of those things, leaving no room
Speaker 3: for perceived rejection or humiliation. And as always my caveats,
Speaker 3: this doesn't mean that rejection causes violence. Millions of people
Speaker 3: experience romantic rejection and never become violent. But when rejection
Speaker 3: is layered on top of years of humiliation, social isolation, resentment,
Speaker 3: and a history of violent behavior and antisocial behavior, it
Speaker 3: can become another risk factor that compounds what's already there.
Speaker 2: How do you think he would have reacted to the
Speaker 2: fact that the thing preventing him from getting his dream
Speaker 2: job his size, was the same thing affecting his dating life.
Speaker 3: I think this could have been especially difficult for Ed
Speaker 3: because it may have felt like his mother was right.
Speaker 3: I mean, remember his mother repeatedly taunted him and told
Speaker 3: him that women would never want him. Then if he's
Speaker 3: struggling in his dating life and simultaneously being told that
Speaker 3: his size is preventing him from pursuing his dream career,
Speaker 3: that can be triggering a core belief in him that
Speaker 3: can create a tremendous amount of resentment, because now he's
Speaker 3: not only angry at his mother for saying those things
Speaker 3: in the first place, He's potentially angry that his own
Speaker 3: experiences seemed to be confirming them. And if he believes
Speaker 3: all of this is tied to something that he can't control,
Speaker 3: which is your size. You have absolutely no control over that.
Speaker 3: That can also create a sense of powerlessness because it's
Speaker 3: an obstacle that feels out of his control. So imagine
Speaker 3: what that can create.
Speaker 2: Well, instead of focusing his energy on dating, Ed looked
Speaker 2: for another job. He eventually got hired as a construction
Speaker 2: worker with the Division of Highways, which he seemed to like.
Speaker 2: He was still new to the area and it helped
Speaker 2: him become familiar with the roadways. Plus he was making
Speaker 2: his own money for the first time. He saved up
Speaker 2: enough to rent his own apartment and by a yellow
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine Ford Galaxy, which he used to get
Speaker 2: away from Claiarnel as much as possible. Pretty soon, Ed
Speaker 2: realized that having a car could be his ticket to
Speaker 2: meeting more women too. This was not only the era
Speaker 2: of hitchhiking, but there were several colleges in the area,
Speaker 2: so a lot of pretty young women were out on
Speaker 2: the roads looking for a ride. Ed started picking up
Speaker 2: female hitchhikers. He'd drive them as far as the Oregon border,
Speaker 2: hundreds of miles away. He didn't do anything other than
Speaker 2: try and strike up conversation and maybe flirt a little,
Speaker 2: but none of the girls seemed interested, but they did
Speaker 2: give him insight into how women perceived him. For example,
Speaker 2: he learned that the short, cop like hair style he
Speaker 2: had was considered uncool and made girls feel suspicious of him,
Speaker 2: so he grew it out, along with a mustache to
Speaker 2: give himself more of a hippie look, and he added
Speaker 2: a pair of round glasses to seem a little studious.
Speaker 2: Ed's makeover seemed to work. By his own estimate, around
Speaker 2: a thousand hitchhikers took rides from him. He studied each encounter,
Speaker 2: but he wasn't just hoping to improve his dating skills.
Speaker 2: After he'd dropped women off, Ed fantasized about what he
Speaker 2: wished he'd done to them. He'd been experiencing the urge
Speaker 2: to sexually assault someone, and it was becoming harder to fight.
Speaker 2: But given his size and his bold car, Ed knew
Speaker 2: he'd be easy to identify. He had to find a
Speaker 2: way to leave behind no witnesses, and in his mind,
Speaker 2: the only way to do that was to kill his victims.
Speaker 2: Ed's stay at the mental institution did nothing to quell
Speaker 2: his murderous rage. Over time, he prepared for his first attack.
Speaker 2: He packed plastic bags, knives, and handcuffs in his trunk.
Speaker 2: Then he started driving women off course to remote areas
Speaker 2: to see if they'd notice. Eventually, Ed realized how unfamiliar
Speaker 2: many people were with the area, and once he felt ready,
Speaker 2: he bought a gun and stashed it in his car.
Speaker 3: Ed essentially conducted a long term experiment with women, and
Speaker 3: according to to what you described, he's given rides to
Speaker 3: around one thousand women. That's quite a bit of social
Speaker 3: data collected on how women responded to him, what made
Speaker 3: them comfortable, what made them uncomfortable, how to present himself,
Speaker 3: how to lower suspicion. And we've actually seen this pattern
Speaker 3: before at a Taskadero State Hospital, he observed his surroundings closely.
Speaker 3: He appeared to learn how professionals thought, what they looked for,
Speaker 3: and what to say and do to get discharged. Here
Speaker 3: we see much of the same. He's learning how women
Speaker 3: think and what behaviors make him seem safe and trustworthy.
Speaker 3: It is intelligent. He's organized, calculated and skilled at adapting
Speaker 3: him to whatever environment. He studies people, test situations, gathers
Speaker 3: information and adjusts his behavior until he's ready. Think of
Speaker 3: all the women that he offered rides to that he
Speaker 3: did not kill but probably wanted to. That suggests a
Speaker 3: degree of control. Only you can't accurately detect his intentions,
Speaker 3: which is exactly what he wants. You would just never know.
Speaker 3: What does it say about Ed that he could figure
Speaker 3: out how to blend in and seem non threatening. Does
Speaker 3: this support his former doctors believe that he was highly intelligent?
Speaker 3: And do you think that tricking his doctors helped him
Speaker 3: know he could get away with all this? We talked
Speaker 3: about how children who grow up in unpredictable environments often
Speaker 3: become very good at adapting and reading the room because
Speaker 3: it can help them anticipate conflict and navigate difficult relationships.
Speaker 3: Only with Ed, this is no longer serving a protective
Speaker 3: function for him. He's using those skills for personal gain
Speaker 3: and deception and ultimately to harm others, which is much
Speaker 3: more consistent with psychopathic traits and predatory behavior. Obviously, as
Speaker 3: a reminder, psychopathy is not a diagnosis. It's a personality
Speaker 3: construct comprised of interpersonal, effective, and behavioral traits. And the
Speaker 3: traits that best describe this behave that allow Ed to
Speaker 3: blend in and seem so non threatening. Our instrumental use
Speaker 3: of others, manipulation, superficial charm, callousness or lack of empathy,
Speaker 3: predatory orientation, and deception, and all of these things make
Speaker 3: him such a good chameleon.
Speaker 2: While in the spring of nineteen seventy two, Ed was
Speaker 2: ready to strike. Around four pm on May seventh, the
Speaker 2: twenty three year old cruised around Berkeley looking for his prey.
Speaker 2: Soon he came across two Fresno State College roommates, mary
Speaker 2: Anne Peshi and Anita Lukesa. They were both eighteen and
Speaker 2: had been visiting friends at UC Berkeley. Now they wanted
Speaker 2: to hitch a ride to Stanford, about forty miles away.
Speaker 2: Anita was five foot one with sun bleached hair and
Speaker 2: gold rimmed glasses. Mary Anne was the same height with
Speaker 2: dark hair and blue eyes. She'd hitchhiked across Europe before,
Speaker 2: so she was much more experienced than Anita, and when
Speaker 2: Ed up, she felt hesitant. Something seemed off about him,
Speaker 2: but eventually the two got in his car, Anita in
Speaker 2: the front seat, mary Anne in the back. It would
Speaker 2: be at least an hour long drive to their destination,
Speaker 2: so Ed had plenty of opportunities to travel through remote
Speaker 2: stretches of terrain. He even asked them questions about the
Speaker 2: area to see how familiar they were with their surroundings.
Speaker 2: But as two teenagers new to town without cars of
Speaker 2: their own, they were out of their depths. About thirty
Speaker 2: minutes into their drive, He brought them out to a
Speaker 2: secluded road near the city of Hayward, then ed turned
Speaker 2: on them. He flashed a nine millimeter Browning automatic pistol
Speaker 2: and handcuffed Marianne to a seat belt. He then tied
Speaker 2: up Anita and told her to get in the trunk.
Speaker 2: She begged him not to hurt them, and Ed slammed
Speaker 2: the trunk door shut. Returning to mary Anne, he put
Speaker 2: a plastic bag over her head and tried to asphyxiate
Speaker 2: her with a terrycloth belt. Despite being bound and outweighed
Speaker 2: by nearly two hundred pounds, mary Anne fought viciously. She
Speaker 2: chewed through the bag and maneuvered the belt from her
Speaker 2: neck to her mouth, cutting it with her teeth. In
Speaker 2: a fury, Ed stabbed her repeatedly. Shocked at how she
Speaker 2: could survive so many stab wounds. He finally slit her throat.
Speaker 2: Ed was shocked at what he'd just done. He looked
Speaker 2: at his hands, and they were completely covered in blood.
Speaker 2: Anita heard everything from inside the trunk, and once it
Speaker 2: was over, Ed opened up the trunk and attacked her too,
Speaker 2: Just like mary Anne. She put up a vicious fight,
Speaker 2: but in the end Ed took Anita's life as well. Afterward,
Speaker 2: he put mary Anne's body in the trunk alongside Anita's.
Speaker 2: He started driving home when suddenly he noticed police lights
Speaker 2: flashing behind him. He pulled over the officer approached, He
Speaker 2: told Ed his tail light was out. Anita must have
Speaker 2: kicked it. As the officer got closer, Ed was sure
Speaker 2: he'd notice blood splatter in the back seat or on
Speaker 2: his hands. He prepared to grab his knife and stab
Speaker 2: the officer next, but the officer didn't notice anything amiss.
Speaker 2: He sent Ed on his way with two bodies in
Speaker 2: his trunk.
Speaker 3: I touched on this concept briefly, but it's a great
Speaker 3: place to elaborate. For years, Ed had been fantasizing, planning,
Speaker 3: and then behaviorally rehearsing these crimes. But fantasy and reality
Speaker 3: are two very different experiences. In fantasy, it's always going
Speaker 3: to go exactly how he wants it to. Otherwise it's
Speaker 3: not a fantasy. Rarely do they factor in realistic scenarios
Speaker 3: like attempted escape. For example, the fact that he seemed
Speaker 3: shocked by the amount of blood and by how much
Speaker 3: resistance he got suggests just that it could also be
Speaker 3: psychologically revealing that he targeted two victims rather than one.
Speaker 3: We know so he spent years learning how to lower
Speaker 3: suspicion and working on ways to perfect that, so he's
Speaker 3: become increasingly confident in his ability to control situations. It's
Speaker 3: possible he simply felt confident and capable of managing the
Speaker 3: two of them, especially when you consider the messages that
Speaker 3: he's internalized with regard to his size and the strength
Speaker 3: that comes with that. At the same time, it could
Speaker 3: have simply been a matter of opportunity. He'd been building
Speaker 3: up to this moment. He had his gun ready, and
Speaker 3: he was not willing to wait anymore, so when he
Speaker 3: encountered Marianne and Anita, he decided to act on it.
Speaker 3: But what's especially concerning, though, is what happens afterward. Despite
Speaker 3: being seemingly shocked, he very quickly shifts into problem solving mode.
Speaker 3: He continues driving, he starts thinking about how not to
Speaker 3: get caught, and he even prepares to kill a police
Speaker 3: officer if necessary, which is a very similar behavioral sequence.
Speaker 3: After he killed his grandmother, he shot her, he heard
Speaker 3: his grand coming home, made a decision to kill him,
Speaker 3: killed him, then continued in problem solving mode by calling
Speaker 3: his mother and then following her directions. So to me,
Speaker 3: this moment after killing mary Anne and Anita is one
Speaker 3: of the more psychologically revealing moments because it shows how
Speaker 3: rapidly Ed can compartmentalize and then prioritize self preservation, especially
Speaker 3: because of what comes next, which is perhaps the more
Speaker 3: gratifying part of this process for him.
Speaker 2: Ed had committed the unspeakable, and behind closed doors, his
Speaker 2: behavior was about to become even more disturbing. In May
Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy two, twenty three year old Ed Kemper
Speaker 2: murdered two college women, mary Anne Peshi and Anita Lukesa.
Speaker 2: The pair had been hitchhiking when Ed picked them up. Afterward,
Speaker 2: he put both bodies in the trunk of his car
Speaker 2: and drove home, and Ed wasn't done with them. At
Speaker 2: his apartment, he dismembered and decapitated both the victims, mirroring
Speaker 2: his childhood when he used to remove the heads from
Speaker 2: his sister's dolls. Then he sexually assaulted both bodies. He
Speaker 2: took polaroid photos while he did it, which he then
Speaker 2: stored in plastic bags in his closet. Ed kept his
Speaker 2: victim's remains in his home overnight, but he knew the
Speaker 2: neighbors would eventually smell the decomposition, so the next morning
Speaker 2: he placed them back into his car and drove to
Speaker 2: Loma Prieda, the highest peak in the Santa Cruz Mountains. There,
Speaker 2: he scattered the women's remains in the forest, keeping mental
Speaker 2: notes of where he left them. That way he could
Speaker 2: come back and relive everything he'd done. However, Ed hadn't
Speaker 2: disposed of all the remains. He kept both victims heads
Speaker 2: in his apartment as a souvenir.
Speaker 3: Necrophilia is a profound sexual attraction to or desired to
Speaker 3: engage in sexual acts with a corpse. It exists on
Speaker 3: a spectrum ranging from mild to severe, and Ed falls
Speaker 3: on the severe end.
Speaker 2: Of that spectrum.
Speaker 3: Individuals who engage in these acts are often seeking a
Speaker 3: partner who is unresisting, incapable of rejecting them, and entirely
Speaker 3: under their control. Now, I want to be very careful
Speaker 3: here because None of what I'm about to discuss causes necrophilia,
Speaker 3: or in any way excuses any of what Ed has done.
Speaker 3: Millions of people experience difficult childhoods, disrupted attachments, family conflict, rejection,
Speaker 3: or even institutionalization and never developed these behaviors. Human behavior
Speaker 3: is far too complex to draw a straight line from
Speaker 3: one life experience to one particular outcome, But what these
Speaker 3: experiences can do is provide context. Through Ed's life, We've
Speaker 3: repeatedly seen themes of him feeling rejected, humiliated, and powerless,
Speaker 3: with disrupted attachments and difficulty forming relationships. We've talked about
Speaker 3: his mother and his sisters and the taunting in the home,
Speaker 3: his relationship with his grandmother being similar to his mother,
Speaker 3: and the fact that he spent many of his formative
Speaker 3: adolescent years at a Tascadero State hospital during a time
Speaker 3: when many teenagers are developing age appropriate social and romantic experiences.
Speaker 3: And now he's continuing to experience rejection from peers and
Speaker 3: he has emerging psychopathy traits. Again, none of these experiences
Speaker 3: explain or excuse his behavior, but when we step back
Speaker 3: and we look at the broader picture, we can begin
Speaker 3: to see why themes like control, fantasy, fulfillment, and possession
Speaker 3: repeatedly emerge throughout his crimes. A corpse cannot reject him,
Speaker 3: humiliate him, criticize him, or leave him. It offers a
Speaker 3: level of control that simply doesn't exist in any healthy
Speaker 3: human relationship.
Speaker 2: Okay, I have to ask why do you think Ed
Speaker 2: kept his victims' heads? And why do you think he
Speaker 2: took photos as he violently their corpses. What can we
Speaker 2: glean about the way he seemed to be documenting things
Speaker 2: and keeping souvenirs?
Speaker 3: This is likely trophy collection. Trophy collection is primarily about
Speaker 3: reliving the fantasy, allowing them to mentally replay every aspect
Speaker 3: of it as many times as they want for their
Speaker 3: own gratification. It can be about possessing the victims, allowing
Speaker 3: them to extend their control and dominance over them. Or
Speaker 3: it can be about a validation of power similar to
Speaker 3: a hunter with taxidermy. Or it can be a way
Speaker 3: of building a ritual. And if you think about Ed's
Speaker 3: history of rejection, then this is likely about possession and
Speaker 3: his distorted way of maintaining a connection to his victims,
Speaker 3: but on his terms.
Speaker 2: As Ed enjoyed the high of his gruesome acts. Mary
Speaker 2: Anne and Anita's families did everything imaginable to find them.
Speaker 2: They filed police reports, put up flyers, and even hired
Speaker 2: private detectives. But at the time, California was rampant with
Speaker 2: hitchhikers or other young traps who police considered runaways. No
Speaker 2: one except Ed had any idea what a horrific end
Speaker 2: mary Anne and Anita had faced. But that was about
Speaker 2: to change. Months past and mary Anne and Anita's heads
Speaker 2: had decomposed. All that was left was their skulls. Eventually,
Speaker 2: he decided to get rid of them in the mountains,
Speaker 2: and in August of nineteen seventy two, some hitch hikers
Speaker 2: found mary Anne's. Police used dental records to identify her,
Speaker 2: and in August of nineteen seventy two, some hikers found
Speaker 2: mary Anne's. Police used dental records to identify her, and
Speaker 2: now authorities and the victim's families realized the nightmarish reality.
Speaker 2: It was clear that Marianne's head had been removed by
Speaker 2: another person, and people believed the same had happened to Anita. However,
Speaker 2: there was no evidence to lead police to a suspect. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: Ed wasn't worried about getting caught even if the authorities
Speaker 2: did have evidence. Forensic DNA testing wasn't around at the time,
Speaker 2: so he knew he hadn't left any valuable clues behind,
Speaker 2: and one month after Mary Anne's skull was found, Ed
Speaker 2: felt the urge to kill again. On September fourteenth, nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy two, he went hunting for his next victim. He
Speaker 2: spotted fifteen year old Ico Coup at a bus stop
Speaker 2: in Berkeley. Ko had missed her bus and she was
Speaker 2: running late to a dance class, so she held out
Speaker 2: a sign to try and hitchhike a ride. Ed spotted
Speaker 2: her and pulled up in his yellow Ford. He offered
Speaker 2: a drive Ico wherever she wanted to go, and she accepted.
Speaker 2: Despite her young age, Ko was already establishing herself as
Speaker 2: a ballerina and traditional Korean dancer. That evening, she left
Speaker 2: home excited that she'd been selected to perform at a
Speaker 2: dance festival. So as Ed drove, Ko's thoughts were preoccupied
Speaker 2: with her future. It wasn't until Ed reached the mountains
Speaker 2: above Santa Cruz that I Jiko realized they were way
Speaker 2: off course, but it was too late. Ed pulled out
Speaker 2: his gun, put tape over her mouth, and ordered her
Speaker 2: into the back seat. Terrified, Icho did as she was told.
Speaker 2: Too large to jump into the back seat himself, Ed
Speaker 2: got out of the car and accidentally locked himself out.
Speaker 2: Will never know why, but Icho let him back into
Speaker 2: the car. When he got in the back seat, he
Speaker 2: suffocated her until she passed out. While she was unconscious,
Speaker 2: he sexually assaulted her. Then when she began to come too,
Speaker 2: he strangled her to death. He put her body in
Speaker 2: the trunk, then drove home, but not before making a
Speaker 2: couple of stops. First, he stopped at a bar for
Speaker 2: a few beers. While he drank, Ed thought about his mother.
Speaker 2: He wondered if she'd be able to sense he was
Speaker 2: behaving differently after what he'd done, so he got back
Speaker 2: into his car and drove to her house. They chatted
Speaker 2: for about thirty minutes, but she didn't seems suspicious at all,
Speaker 2: so Ed finally headed home.
Speaker 3: Ed has repeatedly demonstrated a pattern of observing others, gathering information,
Speaker 3: and adapting accordingly. He's consistently trying to test if he
Speaker 3: can fit in, whether that is adjusting his appearance or
Speaker 3: his post offense behavior. And this has helped him blend in.
Speaker 3: The Only person who has ever known how truly dangerous
Speaker 3: he is, or has warned others about what he's capable of,
Speaker 3: is his mother. She warned his father that he would
Speaker 3: kill his grandparents. So the fact that he decided to
Speaker 3: test this out with her is rather telling, because if she,
Speaker 3: of all people, can't tell what he has just done,
Speaker 3: then I think to him, his presentation is a success.
Speaker 3: It passed the test. Whatever behavior or demeanor he's used
Speaker 3: to deceive her is working. Ed is learning how to
Speaker 3: hide in planes sight.
Speaker 2: What do you make of the fact that Ed made
Speaker 2: two stops, first at the bar and then at his
Speaker 2: mom's house right after killing ko and while her body
Speaker 2: was still in the trunk of his car. Do you
Speaker 2: think he just enjoyed the feeling of being around people
Speaker 2: while keeping this secret.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's possible he was gaining something from this, for sure.
Speaker 3: Some organized serial offenders get psychological gratification from successfully deceiving
Speaker 3: others and avoiding suspicion. And here he is sitting among
Speaker 3: them having drinks while Iico's body is in his trunk,
Speaker 3: and everyone around him is none the wiser that can
Speaker 3: give him a feeling of mastery because he knows something
Speaker 3: that no one else does, and more importantly, he successfully
Speaker 3: concealed it. And I think that's also why he wanted
Speaker 3: to expand on this feeling by testing this with his
Speaker 3: mother next. I also think this speaks to his compartmentalization
Speaker 3: that he can so easily go from murdering a young
Speaker 3: woman like that in such a horrific way after assaulting
Speaker 3: her to engaging in ordinary social interactions as though nothing happened,
Speaker 3: and every successful experience like this is going to reinforce
Speaker 3: his confidence even more.
Speaker 2: It's possible Ed enjoyed being able to blend back into
Speaker 2: society after committing a gruesome murder, and after leaving his
Speaker 2: mom's house, he still wasn't done. The next morning, he
Speaker 2: spent about four hours dismembering Iko's body and removing her head.
Speaker 2: The entire process excited him sexually, and he assaulted his
Speaker 2: victim's remains numerous times. When he was done, Ed did
Speaker 2: the same thing as before. He kept Iko's head as
Speaker 2: well as her hands, and disposed of the rest in
Speaker 2: the mountains. While in the forest, Ed also looked through
Speaker 2: Iko's belongings. He found her address and decided to drive by.
Speaker 2: That's when he realized she came from a humble home.
Speaker 2: Ed felt extremely disappointed in himself. He felt that women
Speaker 2: from wealthier backgrounds deserved what he did to them, but
Speaker 2: not girls like Iiko. And while Ko wasn't rich, she
Speaker 2: was loved. Her mother had called the police just hours
Speaker 2: after she should have returned home, but they told her
Speaker 2: Iko had probably run away and refused to help her.
Speaker 2: All the while, Ed was driving around town with the
Speaker 2: young girl's head in the trunk of his car, including
Speaker 2: on his way to a psychiatric evaluation. After seeing Iko's house,
Speaker 2: Ed drove one hundred and sixty miles to Fresno to
Speaker 2: meet with court appointed psychiatrists. His juvenile records had been
Speaker 2: temporarily sealed when he was released, but he wanted them
Speaker 2: permanently sealed so he could try again to become a
Speaker 2: police officer. At the appointment, Ed said all the right
Speaker 2: things and passed the evaluation with flying colors. Doctors believed
Speaker 2: he posed no violent threat to anyone, and they recommended
Speaker 2: his records remain sealed. Just like that, the murder of
Speaker 2: Ed's grandparents continued to be sealed away from the authorities.
Speaker 2: He felt completely invincible. To celebrate, he bought a new
Speaker 2: gun in January of nineteen seventy three. That same day,
Speaker 2: he picked out his next victim, nineteen year old Cynthia Shoal,
Speaker 2: a Santa Cruz local and Cabrio College student. Cynthia was
Speaker 2: looking for a ride to class, and Ed offered her one,
Speaker 2: but instead of taking her to the campus, Ed drove
Speaker 2: Cynthia to an isolated area somewhere between Corolidos and Freedom
Speaker 2: in Santa Cruz County. He pulled out his new twenty
Speaker 2: two caliber pistol and forced her into the trunk. Then
Speaker 2: he shot her once in the head. Ed intended to
Speaker 2: act out his usual post murder ritual, but instead of
Speaker 2: bringing Cynthia's remains to his apartment, he drove to his mother's.
Speaker 2: While she wasn't around, he dismembered the remains and assaulted
Speaker 2: his latest victim's corpse. Later, Ed disposed of Cynthia's remains
Speaker 2: across Big sur. He had no idea that this time
Speaker 2: he was leaving behind crucial evidence. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 2: Come back next time. As Andrea joins doctor Engels and
Speaker 2: me for the conclusion of our deep dive into the
Speaker 2: mind of Ed Kemper.
Speaker 3: Looking forward to it. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is
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Speaker 1: This was part one of the Ed Kemper Deep Dive
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