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Speaker 1: If I know one thing about diseases, it's that their

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Speaker 1: home bodies. No, it's fine, we make it. They just

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Speaker 1: want to netflix and chill. You just line up the

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Speaker 1: entire population of the US in a line across the

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Speaker 1: US and we shoot any deer that tries across the line.

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Speaker 1: I think we should do the reverse and have deer

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Speaker 1: shoot people who tried across the line. It's the only

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Speaker 1: thing that can protect us from the dangerous east. No, No,

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Speaker 1: that look, look, well, I guess it works in east

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Speaker 1: and in the west. We have to maintain the right

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Speaker 1: to arm bears. Yeah, I'm I'm of the opinion, given

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Speaker 1: how dry it is in New Mexico, that we need

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Speaker 1: to sink every part of the country east of New

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Speaker 1: Mexico to give it a coast that can that can

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Speaker 1: keep it moist. I wonder how much of this is

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Speaker 1: going to get in the final cut. Well, if you

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Speaker 1: live east of New Mexico, welcome to the ocean. That's

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Speaker 1: my suggestion. Um, speaking of people east of New Mexico,

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Speaker 1: this is it could happen here a podcast where some

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Speaker 1: of the listeners are east of New Mexico. Even though

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Speaker 1: I don't recommend that. Um, I'm Robert Evans on on

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Speaker 1: the call with me is Christopher Wong, Garrison Davis, Sharene,

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Speaker 1: Lnnie Units, and then our producers Sophie. Today we're talking

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Speaker 1: about terrorism. Yeah, we can do it in a little

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Speaker 1: NPR voice. So uh recently, the same week as the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court leaked a document stating that they would be

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Speaker 1: taking out Roe v. Wade and ushering in an era

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Speaker 1: of theocratic fascism in a number of states. UH, an

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Speaker 1: individual or individuals unknown in Wisconsin attacked an anti choice

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Speaker 1: headquarters building with a Molotov cocktail and spray painted graffiti

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Speaker 1: on the side saying if abortion isn't safe, then you aren't.

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Speaker 1: Either that same group or individuals claiming to be from them,

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Speaker 1: UH later reached out to me through an intermediary and

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Speaker 1: sent a manifesto of sorts about the attack, promising follow

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Speaker 1: up attacks within thirty days. But they wrote, but they

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Speaker 1: wrote in cursive, so who can say, who can say

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Speaker 1: if this actually happened. So we'll talk first. I want

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Speaker 1: to just go over first what what happened in like

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Speaker 1: factual terms, and then we'll talk about the discourse around it.

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Speaker 1: So basically, there's this attack on this um anti choice

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Speaker 1: like advocacy organizations, headquarters and fucking Wisconsin. UM. It was

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Speaker 1: seemed to be a pretty good molotov and that, like Garrison,

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Speaker 1: you and I have watched a number of people failed

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Speaker 1: to properly utilize. I watched a few people get get ignited.

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Speaker 1: I've seen a couple of not cops get ignited by

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Speaker 1: molotsovs UM. They're they're they're not like people can suck

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Speaker 1: them up easily. Whoever did this did not suck them up.

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Speaker 1: It was seemed to be at the moment, no one

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Speaker 1: has been arrested. Now, it's possible by the time this drops,

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Speaker 1: Wisconsin police will be like, oh no, there was totally

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Speaker 1: surveillance footage and they fucked up and we just caught them. UM.

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Speaker 1: But at the moment, it doesn't look like that's the case.

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Speaker 1: So it looks like this is somebody who carried out

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Speaker 1: or some buddies, because it's entirely possible is multiple people,

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Speaker 1: but carry it out UM a very effective like action

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Speaker 1: that did material damage to UM, part of kind of

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Speaker 1: the physical infrastructure of the anti choice movement UM and

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Speaker 1: ended without anyone getting caught. So that's the fact of

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Speaker 1: the actual attack itself. UM. A person who claiming to

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Speaker 1: be affiliated with the individuals or group here did this.

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Speaker 1: Reached out to a source of mind who I'm keeping anonymous,

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Speaker 1: but somebody who I've known for a while with a

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Speaker 1: very good track record of being accurate, and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: these individual slash individuals have a communicate they would like

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Speaker 1: put out UM and I was sent on a non

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Speaker 1: files link, which is a link. If you view it

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Speaker 1: in a normal browser you'll get some fucked up ship.

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Speaker 1: Don't put it in a normal browser, I specified like

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to. If you put it in Tour, it

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Speaker 1: will download a text file, right, UM. And the text

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Speaker 1: file is the communic A. So using the Tour browser

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Speaker 1: for that link, you can get a text file in

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Speaker 1: which they lay out number one. They named themselves UM

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Speaker 1: and the name they've chosen for their group is Jane's Revenge,

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Speaker 1: which is a reference to the Jane Collective UM, which

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Speaker 1: was a pro choice group in the late sixties early

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Speaker 1: seventies that UM provided women with access to contraception and

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Speaker 1: abortion illegally. A bunch of them went to jail. Uh

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Speaker 1: they were pardoned after Roe v. Wade. If I'm not

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Speaker 1: mistaken or at least the click yeah, yeah, very well timed. UM.

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Speaker 1: So they're calling themselves Jane's Revenge, and they basically said, hey,

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Speaker 1: if you are an organization in the anti choice movement,

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Speaker 1: you have thirty days to close down your operations otherwise

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Speaker 1: there will be follow up attacks. They specifically noted the

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Speaker 1: long and it's at this point like a forty years

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Speaker 1: long history of tear wrist attacks from the anti choice movement,

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Speaker 1: many of which have assassinated doctors, something like sixteen people

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Speaker 1: have been killed, UM, dozens of bombs and bombing attempts,

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Speaker 1: something like a hundred acid attacks. So they made a

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Speaker 1: note of all that and said that like, basically we

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Speaker 1: will be UM, we will be responding in kind and

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Speaker 1: UH attacks after this initial attack will be correspondingly more severe. UM.

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Speaker 1: They also claimed to have a pretty wide geographic reach,

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Speaker 1: said they had folks in a number of cities, UM,

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Speaker 1: and that yeah, there's going to be follow up attacks UM,

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Speaker 1: and they're prepared to defend their bodily autonomy with violence.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's the gist of what was claimed in

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Speaker 1: the communic a UM. In terms of what I think

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Speaker 1: about its legitimacy, UM, I don't have any reason to

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Speaker 1: believe they're not representing the individual or individuals who carried

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Speaker 1: out that attack in Wisconsin, based on the timing of

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Speaker 1: when the communic was made, and based on the fact

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Speaker 1: that the community is pretty consistent with what we saw

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Speaker 1: from the actual action. Right, So, among other things that

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Speaker 1: you can tell from the physical action that was taken

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Speaker 1: is that, um, the individual or individuals who did this

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Speaker 1: were pretty well organized. They carried out a competent action,

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Speaker 1: and they thought there was a value in very clear

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Speaker 1: messaging because there's clear messaging surrounding the attack. The communicate

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Speaker 1: is very clear messaging. It does not sound like a

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Speaker 1: right winger writing up a fake communicate. It's very um.

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Speaker 1: It takes great pains to both connect itself to history,

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Speaker 1: to frame its violence within the context of the violence

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Speaker 1: perpetuated by the anti choice movement for decades UM, and

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Speaker 1: just in general, it's the communication seems consistent with the

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Speaker 1: action that we saw in Wisconsin. Now cannot say, we

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Speaker 1: cannot say, I cannot say to a statement of certainty

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Speaker 1: whether or not it's legitimate. One helpful thing they did

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Speaker 1: is place state that there would be another more attacks

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Speaker 1: in thirty days. So we're kind of waiting if thirty

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Speaker 1: days pass and there's never any kind of follow up

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Speaker 1: attacks by this group, then we can probably assume that

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Speaker 1: this was either somebody bullshitting or that the heat got

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Speaker 1: to too much for them and they decided not to

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Speaker 1: carry out follow up attacks. UM. But we're all kind

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Speaker 1: of in this holding pattern now to see what happens.

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Speaker 1: My personal speculation is that UM, they were exaggerating a

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Speaker 1: number of things. UM. I think that the their claims

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Speaker 1: about having members in a number of states in a

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Speaker 1: capacity to strike in a number of states was more

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Speaker 1: aspirational than literal UM. In that I suspect the people

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Speaker 1: behind this attack, in this communicate are hoping that by

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Speaker 1: UM carrying out attacks, they can inspire other people to

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Speaker 1: carry out attacks and credit it to the same organization, right,

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Speaker 1: which is not an uncommon tactic in the history of terrorism.

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Speaker 1: And again, this is terrorism. Like that doesn't mean I

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Speaker 1: don't think, uh, there have a point or that it's

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Speaker 1: like fundamentally unjust. Terrorism is just like a set of

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Speaker 1: tactics that different groups can use, and it can be

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Speaker 1: ethical or unethical depending on how you you choose to

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Speaker 1: do that. You can attack purely infrastructure, UM in a

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Speaker 1: terrorist manner, And I don't think that's necessarily unethical. And

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Speaker 1: you can also attack civilians um in a terrorist manner,

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Speaker 1: and I think that is unethical. At this moment, these

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Speaker 1: people have not done anything I view is inherently unethical.

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Speaker 1: They burned a building, um, which I think is often

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Speaker 1: justified and is in this case justified. So that's that's

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Speaker 1: my opinion on the matter. Let's open it up on

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Speaker 1: the point you kind of closed with. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they showed effective direct action. They did a physical thing.

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Speaker 1: Maltovs are not the best way to do like to

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Speaker 1: like arsenal building, but they are good for a very

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Speaker 1: quick attack. Um. It caused this whole media thing, right,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot a lot of people talking about it,

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Speaker 1: then releasing the communicate through someone who can give it

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Speaker 1: a lot of visibility. Uh, and then by by doing

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Speaker 1: it with this with this name Jane's revenge and saying

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Speaker 1: in thirty days there will be more attacks in different cities,

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Speaker 1: the messages that yeah, like you can One way to

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Speaker 1: look at this is if if they don't have tons

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Speaker 1: of like you know, members are allies that they know

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Speaker 1: across different cities, is that and anyone can do this,

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Speaker 1: Like anyone can do this and call themselves by that

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Speaker 1: name and be a part of this larger thing like

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Speaker 1: it's you if you, if you spread it around, then

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Speaker 1: that it can become like this, this thing that anyone

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Speaker 1: can gloam onto. It doesn't need to be you don't

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Speaker 1: need to be a part of a member of a

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Speaker 1: specific group. You can just do stuff and release communicates

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Speaker 1: safely and add add on to the to the to

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Speaker 1: the specter. Yeah. Um, it's not hard to set up

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Speaker 1: like a text drop in the same manner that did

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Speaker 1: they did. It is relatively secure. Like there's no perfect

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Speaker 1: if you are committing terrorism, there is no perfect manner

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Speaker 1: to issue a statement. Um, but of the different things

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Speaker 1: they could have chosen, this is relatively secure, especially doing

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Speaker 1: it through an intermediary. I haven't had direct contact with

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Speaker 1: these people, but um, we should probably note that there's

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Speaker 1: a huge discourse that started before the communic A came

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Speaker 1: out arguing that this is like a false flag attack. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's yes, that in a long line of calling a

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty well planned out direct action. When it actually happens,

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Speaker 1: people will defalse to calling it an op. We're calling

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Speaker 1: it a false flag from a very people like there's

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Speaker 1: there's like there's like libs who say, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: a staged thing to make our movement look bad. There's

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Speaker 1: tank kis who think it's like the CIA planning something.

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Speaker 1: There's random other folks who are like, hey, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it's legit. I think maybe it's like some

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of people get verius various justifications for

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Speaker 1: calling pretty effective acts of direct action UM and questioning

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Speaker 1: questioning their legitimacy. I think some of this comes from

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Speaker 1: because there's obviously there's the bad faith elements of this UM,

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Speaker 1: but I think the good faith folks who questioned it,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of learned helplessness. There this idea that

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Speaker 1: because somebody did carry out a pretty successful direct action

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Speaker 1: attack that kind of did what its intention was, then

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Speaker 1: it has to have been the FBI or whoever, right,

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Speaker 1: because obviously the left could never have pulled off something

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Speaker 1: as as cunning as throwing a single molotov at a

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Speaker 1: building and spray painting the side of it, you know, UM.

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Speaker 1: And I I do think that that's a problem. Whether

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Speaker 1: or not you think the solution to issues like the

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Speaker 1: right wing attack on reproductive healthcare come from direct action.

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Speaker 1: The fact that folks almost can't conceive of effective action

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Speaker 1: being taken by the left without the FEDS being involved.

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Speaker 1: Is really an issue. Yeah, and this was a huge

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Speaker 1: thing during one of the things that we saw there.

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Speaker 1: There were so many just weird conspiracy theories, and then

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Speaker 1: the every thing that happened very quickly was people became

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Speaker 1: convinced almost immediately that any one doing anything was it

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Speaker 1: was a federal infiltrator. And you've got people, you got

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Speaker 1: crowds turning people over to the the police. You got people

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Speaker 1: on Twitter like trying to track down um, like who

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Speaker 1: was throwing malltops and videos and like one of the

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Speaker 1: people they caught they turned over the police it turned

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Speaker 1: out had been had been the girlfriend is someone who

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Speaker 1: got killed by the cops. And so, I mean the stuff,

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Speaker 1: this stuff has has, the stuff has real world consequences.

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Speaker 1: It has already like sent people to jail, it has

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Speaker 1: it has this normostmobilizing effect of me, I don't remember people.

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Speaker 1: Two people remember the okay, the two to two big Okay,

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Speaker 1: the two big Twitter conspiracies were um bricks bricks and

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Speaker 1: Who's yeah, yeah, yeah, there's hoping that people like people

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Speaker 1: would see a powers never seen right next to a

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Speaker 1: next to a construction site, Like, how are all these

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Speaker 1: pallets of bricks showing up this? There's like a construction

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Speaker 1: side of block away. You're like, who's distributing the fireworks?

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Speaker 1: How do these fireworks get here? Never mind June. The

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Speaker 1: history of like like the FBI, some people will mistakenly

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Speaker 1: like throw the CIA in there. The CIA doesn't really

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Speaker 1: tend to do like the domestic facory. Um, they're international facory.

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Speaker 1: But like, if you look at the history of the

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Speaker 1: FBI fucking with left wing social movements, it's not by

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Speaker 1: handing out brick palettes. Yeah, but that's not what they do.

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Speaker 1: We have a lot of documentation about what they do

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Speaker 1: and it's not bricks. And if there is some secret

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Speaker 1: group who's maliciously giving out bricks so people attack, throw

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Speaker 1: them through windows or throw them at cop cars, like

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Speaker 1: who cares? Like bricks are getting throw a cop cars.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter where they come from like that, people

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Speaker 1: are still choosing to do action. Yeah. The best example

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Speaker 1: of this is is the Russian Revolution n No. Five.

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Speaker 1: The Russian Revolution of N five was started by a

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Speaker 1: guy who was a police agent. Like his whole thing

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Speaker 1: is he was he was he was working to create

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Speaker 1: like like you is that could be controlled by the state.

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Speaker 1: An he marched a bunch of people into a square

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Speaker 1: and the police shot them. And that's how and that's what.

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Speaker 1: That's literally how the Russian revolutions started. Like it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't like there's there's a there's a point. Okay,

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Speaker 1: they're they're like, there's two layers of this. One is

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Speaker 1: that like they're they're almost is never a conspiracy going

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Speaker 1: on into If the conspiracy is we want to push

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Speaker 1: people towards doing things, it almost it doesn't. There's a

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Speaker 1: point at which it stops mattering because a lot a

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Speaker 1: lot of people forget about atoms rights. When you're talking

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Speaker 1: about these types of things. Usually the more simple the answer,

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Speaker 1: the more likely it is. The more the less involved parties,

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Speaker 1: the more likely the more likely it is. So if

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Speaker 1: there's a choice between rad people fucking up an anti

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Speaker 1: choice headquarters versus a government conspiracy to do false league

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Speaker 1: operations to make the anti choice to make the abortion

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Speaker 1: movement look bad, like one of those is much more

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Speaker 1: simple and much more likely, And it's people just deciding

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Speaker 1: to do stuff because guess what you can you can

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Speaker 1: actually do that you don't need to allow these these

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Speaker 1: weird narratives to to like to justify your uncomfortableness at

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Speaker 1: like at forms of radical direct action, because it's it's

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Speaker 1: people use that false flag idea, so so they don't

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Speaker 1: need to actually engage with what direct action will mean

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Speaker 1: and if it is someone's moral imperative to physically attack

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Speaker 1: like physical manifestations of these sources of oppression. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think you're right on the money there. I think one

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Speaker 1: of the things that's most frustrating to me about this

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Speaker 1: is it kind of suggests that a sizeable chunk of

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Speaker 1: people who ostensibly consider themselves on the left are like

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Speaker 1: focusing their time not on doing anything and not on

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Speaker 1: taking any action to materially change the conditions they're angry

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Speaker 1: at um, but are instead looking for reasons to disavow

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Speaker 1: other folks on the left, And that that's like the

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Speaker 1: primary which is if you again, if you like, look

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Speaker 1: at what we know Herbert Hoover. Herbert Hoover was saying

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Speaker 1: about the FBI's co Intel Pro program was the all

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Speaker 1: of co intel Pro, Right, that's what if That's what

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Speaker 1: exactly what I was thinking. I'm just like, I feel

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Speaker 1: like this promotes I don't know a morality like race

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Speaker 1: or like just like competition where the only thing it

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Speaker 1: does is just promote in fighting. When you have this,

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Speaker 1: like you're on your morality horse. But I think if

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Speaker 1: you actually support real change, you have to come to

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Speaker 1: terms with like you have to do illegal things and

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Speaker 1: like holding on too, like these made up laws that

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Speaker 1: someone made up about like how to achieve change is useless.

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Speaker 1: And there's I mean, like dividing up a side that's

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Speaker 1: supposed to be going for the same thing. Like that's exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's a missing point and people don't really Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you look at the right, you've got all these

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Speaker 1: folks who were like legal and whatnot, uh proponents of

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Speaker 1: of ending reproductive health care access and any of the

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Speaker 1: folks who are doing repeated acts of terrorism. And the

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Speaker 1: folks who were on the legal side of things didn't

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Speaker 1: disavow those people. They were often affiliated with churches that

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Speaker 1: did shoot like auction off the possessions of like extremists

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Speaker 1: who had murdered doctors and ship like they were like

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Speaker 1: even the most they would do is just not directly

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Speaker 1: talk about those people. They didn't disavow them. They didn't

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Speaker 1: like attack it because they understood that a diversity of

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Speaker 1: tactics was going to be how they achieved their goals.

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Speaker 1: That it was a mix of pushing for these legal

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Speaker 1: changes and carrying out so many terroristic attacks that it

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Speaker 1: frightened people away from supporting um abortion service providers and

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Speaker 1: other kind of reproductive health care service providers. US difference

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Speaker 1: between the right and the left, though, like Democratic Republicans

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Speaker 1: are really good at uniting on this big picture, and

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Speaker 1: I feel like Democrats are not. I feel like they

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Speaker 1: just uh, I don't know. It's too there's too much

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Speaker 1: in fighting, and that's why it's always fractured. Part of

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Speaker 1: it is that on the Republican side you have Republicans

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Speaker 1: and you have the far right who are also Republicans.

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Speaker 1: And even though a lot of folks on the far

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Speaker 1: right bitch about the centrists in their up like the

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Speaker 1: folks who are closer to the center, they all get

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Speaker 1: in line for really radical stuff, Like the center of

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party always yields to the radicals, whereas Democrats

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Speaker 1: do not acknowledge leftists as having anything to do with

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Speaker 1: with the Democratic Party or democratic politics other than the

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Speaker 1: yell at them when they don't vote. Um. And on

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Speaker 1: the other hand of things, there's a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: on the left who hate liberals more than they hate fascists,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, and it's it's I think one of

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Speaker 1: those is a bigger problem than the other. I think

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Speaker 1: that the failure of the democratic establishment to like deal

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Speaker 1: with the left at all, um or make any kind

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Speaker 1: of progress, uh, that could be seen as as actually

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Speaker 1: left wing actually much more um. Yeah. But but I

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Speaker 1: think I think there's they're they're I think they're structural

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Speaker 1: reasons for that, which is okay. If if you look

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Speaker 1: at what is the basis of conservative alliance, right, if

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Speaker 1: you're a conservative, you know, okay, if if you're from

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Speaker 1: this sort of like moderate business wing at the party,

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Speaker 1: if you're from the fascist wing at the party, right,

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Speaker 1: you can have one judge who gives both of you

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Speaker 1: the things that you want, right, Because if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're like the Koke brothers, the thing that you want

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Speaker 1: is the regulation. Right, you want to be able to

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Speaker 1: just like dump poison into the environment. If you're ON,

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Speaker 1: If you're ON, if you're an evangelical, the thing that

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Speaker 1: you want is uh, you know, to no one can

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Speaker 1: ever have an abortion again. And you know if if

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Speaker 1: if you're like a fascist, I don't know, maybe you

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Speaker 1: want like we don't give food to immigrant children anymore,

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Speaker 1: so they start to death. And one judge can give

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Speaker 1: you all of those same things because the the sort

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Speaker 1: of the the class and social issues of the Republican

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Speaker 1: base can all be fused together without harboring each other.

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Speaker 1: But the problem with with with this with the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party is that like the Democratic Party's basis is like

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Speaker 1: what's left of the union movement, but then also like

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Speaker 1: a bunch of corporations to banks and like weapons manufacturers

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Speaker 1: and stuff. But then also like a bunch of angry

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Speaker 1: students and also like a bunch of people from different

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Speaker 1: minority groups, and all of these people like have different interests,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in the Democratic Party ultimately like the thing,

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Speaker 1: the thing that they care about is keeping capitalism going.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if if they have to like if

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Speaker 1: that means that yeah, I mean, well okay, if if

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Speaker 1: your things you want to keep capital isn't going, like

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Speaker 1: of course you're just gonna throw your left wing out

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Speaker 1: to the wolves, right like it. It makes sense for

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Speaker 1: them to do this because because the part of their

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Speaker 1: base that actually matters. Isn't like the labor movement, it's

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Speaker 1: like it's Goldman Sachs. I think that one of the

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Speaker 1: other things that that causes people to have this like

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Speaker 1: immediately anyhow someone does someone does. Like people remember like

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Speaker 1: when when Nancy Pelosi's driveway got graffitied, like that was

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Speaker 1: like that's never never, that's horrible. Don't graffiti and Nancy

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Speaker 1: pelosis driveway, that's evil? Yeah, like it's nicest you did

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Speaker 1: nicest there. Yeah, everyone lost in mind and was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is obviously a false flag, and it's like what

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Speaker 1: you know. But the reason they do this is because

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Speaker 1: they have they have like democrat optics brain where like

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Speaker 1: instead of anything being about politics, every everything is just

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Speaker 1: about optics and optics and how does it look? How

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Speaker 1: does it look? How does it look? Like? The only

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Speaker 1: people who care about this are like weird pundits. But

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Speaker 1: because because everyone's so sort of absorbed in like the

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Speaker 1: Twitter media spear, like they think that like the actual

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Speaker 1: general public cares about the things that pundits care about

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Speaker 1: because the only thing they're seeing is pundits writing angry articles.

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Speaker 1: But like nobody cared like zero people, especially the graffiti thing.

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Speaker 1: Because man, people like dissect how someone sprayed an anarchist a.

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Speaker 1: It's like if you're not aware, like a chunk of

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Speaker 1: the discourse, are e it being a false flag or whatever?

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Speaker 1: Was that the Yeah, but that they did they did

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Speaker 1: as they did like the key a inside the inside

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Speaker 1: the circle. Um. And it's wild because I mean spray painting.

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Speaker 1: What they said like if if abortions aren't safe, then

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Speaker 1: you are either in cursive is a genius move. It's

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Speaker 1: great because if you spray painted in some like random

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Speaker 1: punk fond that's easy to be ignored like oh, it's

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Speaker 1: just people doing like whatever. People pray many stuff, but

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Speaker 1: doing it like methodically in cursive is is actually a

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Speaker 1: really good choice because you're like, oh, it's like we're

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Speaker 1: dealing with adults. It's like like the type of things

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Speaker 1: that people will go through their minds when they look

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Speaker 1: at it is great. Um. And it's just a weird

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Speaker 1: denial to assume that no one who takes radical direct

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Speaker 1: action whatever write in cursive. It's just it's like the

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Speaker 1: most the most brainworms thing. And it's also like it's

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Speaker 1: also very clear, like like okay, so I am very

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Speaker 1: bad at spray painting, right, but like I have I

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Speaker 1: have used a spray paint can and well, this isn't

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Speaker 1: I was I was I was making I was making

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Speaker 1: banners for stuff. So this wasn't even like this wasn't

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Speaker 1: even crimes. But this is just like regular spray painting.

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Speaker 1: It's like that is hard, Like writing that incursive and

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Speaker 1: having it look that nice with the spray bait can

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Speaker 1: is like difficult, which you know, if if if you

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Speaker 1: think about this about five seconds, this makes it more

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Speaker 1: likely that has actually left as doing this because it's

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Speaker 1: like what, okay, hold on, So the anti abortion people

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Speaker 1: have one person who's really really good at graffiti and

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Speaker 1: this person that they've beside. Yeah, they anchist school and

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Speaker 1: secret to like learning. It's like it's nonsense, but it's

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Speaker 1: like people. People just people want everything to sort of

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Speaker 1: like like And I think this is the other angle

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Speaker 1: of this is that people think that like have this

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Speaker 1: wild overassessment of the capacity of the state. Yeah, and

430
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 1: they think that anytime something looks slightly weird, it's like, oh,

431
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: it must be the state. Like like one of the

432
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: one of the things that happened with with the Brooklyn

433
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,879
Speaker 1: shooting tube was like you had all these people that

434
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: there's a tweet going around that was like, Oh, the

435
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: cameras just happened. All all the cameras, all the cameras

436
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: in New York were working except the exact one that

437
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: would have caught the shooter. And this is this is

438
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: like you want circled around this And everyone was like,

439
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is a false flag. And then

440
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: know it turned out that like the guy had literally

441
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: called the police, but the police were so incompetent that

442
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 1: like other people like saw him on the street and

443
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: got to him before like the cops did. And and

444
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 1: like the camera it turned out wasn't even like the

445
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: camera that was out wasn't even the camera that like

446
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: like they had him on camera. It was a different camera.

447
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: But it was like everyone everyone just immediately has this

448
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 1: like conspiracy brain thing where they see like one thing

449
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: out of context that looks slightly weird and they go,

450
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: oh my god, this whole thing is is is a

451
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: state like c A like so depressing. It's so depressing

452
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: because it's such it's so depowering your specific You're like

453
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: it ties into the learned helpless this thing that Robert mentioned,

454
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: like you're convincing yourself that we don't have power to

455
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: change things that we cannot take any physical action to

456
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: change things. UM. And that's not great mentality to have

457
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: if you want to improve the world or if you

458
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: want to if you want to destroy the things that

459
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 1: harve you, UM, you do. You don't want to fall

460
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: into that that specific like I don't have any power

461
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: mindset because you turns out you can do stuff. Things happened,

462
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: you can. People threw a ball off and broke windows

463
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: and cool people sometimes do cool things, yes, just like

464
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: the past people stuff Yes. Plug Sophie, Sophie, Sophie, Sophie, Sophie.

465
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 1: One of the things that's interesting to me, and it

466
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: it might hold some lessons for folks thinking about radical

467
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: direct action and what gets attention and what doesn't. So

468
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: obviously this attack has garnered a lot of national attention,

469
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 1: right the fact that I think it's because there was

470
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: both an attack and a message was another attack. And

471
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: it's not a that this had anything to do with

472
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 1: the pro choice movement, UM, but I suspect it does.

473
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: The Attorney General Virginia Jason Miarez UM on the tenth

474
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: of May there was a someone shot into his office,

475
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: like a bullet was found in the office. Um, it

476
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: was probably fired when no one was there. We don't

477
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: really know more than that. It is unclear as to

478
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 1: whether or not this is involved with things. But three

479
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: days before the shot was fired into his office, he

480
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: had basically Catholic groups had been planning big masses to

481
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: celebrate the leaked draft opinion, and protesters had been organizing

482
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: to protest the Catholic masses, and he had threatened to

483
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: charge people who protested masses. Um, because he believes the

484
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: right to freedom of religion trump's the right of free speech.

485
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a fucked up situation. People

486
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: got angry at me ares um. And it seems kind

487
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: of noteworthy that someone shot into this office three days

488
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: after this. I mean, also, I mean there's been a

489
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: lot of stuff, like on on May eight, there was

490
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: an attack on the organ Rights to Life building. Yes, yes, yes,

491
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: there was certainly a pro choice Yeah, yeah, there was there.

492
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: There was There was at least two multop cocktails throne

493
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: and there was a break and inside. So it's like,

494
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: you can do things. You don't have no power, like

495
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: you can physical you can interact with the politics in

496
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: a physical way. Um, people do interact with politics in

497
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: a physical way. Yeah, and and people people have this

498
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: assumption that like this is going to be incredibly unpopular.

499
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: And again I want to point out burning the third precinct.

500
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: How to higher approve of rating that both presidential candidates,

501
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: which I mean I I again tend to advocate in

502
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: we should elect the burning of the third Precinct in

503
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:55,719
Speaker 1: Minneapolis as president. Look every look, the way that works

504
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: is the burning of the precinct takes office and then

505
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: every day you burn another precinct. That's so that you

506
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: can actually have a president. Well, that is how you

507
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: fill the cabinet. Yeah, there needs to yeah, yeah, yeah,

508
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: you have to eat well. Yeah, all all all the

509
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: staff positions filled with the health and the Health and

510
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: Human Services Secretary will be the West Los Angeles police

511
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 1: station and so forth. Yes, I'm really excited to see

512
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 1: which one gets picked for the Housing Secretary. I am

513
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: just on my on my toes, just exciting. Democracy can

514
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: be quite far. Electoralism has some has some really cool,

515
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: really cool points. Yeah, hey, you you too could go

516
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 1: in front of the National Labor Relations Board, and the

517
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: National Labor Relations Board is just seven is just seven

518
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: on fire police stations, charred really win. So yeah, we

519
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: just we just want we wanted to at least talk

520
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: about this because if whenever a cool thing happens and

521
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,719
Speaker 1: a large swath of of of people who are ostensibly

522
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: leftists or even or even anarchists default to calling anything

523
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: cool of all flag or up, it's like, well, like

524
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: what do you want? Like you want people just to

525
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: stay at home all the time and not do anything? Like,

526
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: what's what's the end goal here? If you're calling everything

527
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: that happens enough. Yeah, and also just like if you're

528
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: going to if you're worried about ops and thinking of

529
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: suggesting that something might be what is your line? Is

530
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: it just that people broke a law? Are you saying

531
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: that if people do illegal things, that's always like a

532
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: government op? Because that doesn't seem like yourself an anarchist,

533
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like a good strategy. Yeah, especially when it

534
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: comes to reproductive rights, like you're gonna have to do

535
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: illegal things if people are gonna have to break exactly, Yeah,

536
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: pick and choose. I'm a hundred percent convinced that like

537
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: all of these people, if they'd seen John Brown would

538
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: have been completely convinced the John Brown, Oh John Brown

539
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: was for sure the FBI. He founded it the original

540
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: op John Brown. I think that there's an aspect there

541
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: of also like okay, if if if you're on Twitter right,

542
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: mostly are not doing politics, and the thing that you're

543
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: actually doing on Twitter is trying to feel smarter for

544
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: everyone else. And if you're the person that's like, oh, hey,

545
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: look all these people believe that this thing wasn't an

546
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: OP or like oh I yeah, it's like and it's like, yeah, okay,

547
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: you you very quickly like spiral into just like every

548
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: all all the all the sheeple tours smart fight this suspicious.

549
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: You're like it's it's like it's it's just a bad

550
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: like looking at an element of event and going oh,

551
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: this is weird, but in a way that is oh hauh,

552
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: isn't this weird? It must be the government, Like that's

553
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: that's just a bad way of thinking. Like in in

554
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: the mirror hours, in the mirror minutes after anonymous people

555
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: broke into the Portland Plice Association headquarters back in I

556
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: think was July, just in mirror hours, people were calling

557
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: it a false flag, that the police were dressed up

558
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: the black block the people and started protesting the FEDS yes,

559
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: they alleged that this was like I guess the FBI

560
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: or Homeland Security trying to get protesters angry at the

561
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: cops again, which is I mean, for one thing, if

562
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: actually happened, if there were to be a point where

563
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: the left wing had the FBI fighting or the FBI

564
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: or Homeland Security whatever, fighting with local police over who

565
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: was getting protested, that's a win, that's a that's a big,

566
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: solid capital dub for the But people like the FBI

567
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: is a block breaking into the police union building and

568
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: trying to light it on fire, you're like, well doing

569
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: doing less physical, let's be honest, doing less damage to

570
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: that police union building that I have seen my friends

571
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: do when attempting to deep fry French fries, Like I

572
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: have watched people do more damage to their living rooms

573
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: than that protested to the people. Astonishing because like there

574
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: was so many people at that act, so many people

575
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: using the moment to to actually gain like physical political

576
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: power for a brief a brief moment um, and to

577
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: take that away from them is just as a bizarre impulse,

578
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: and I would like to see it end, especially as

579
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: we're going to see, hopefully see that people will realize

580
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,479
Speaker 1: that that that direct action is going to become more

581
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: and more important for securing your personal rights and securing

582
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: your personal freedom. And also I would say these people, Okay,

583
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: if you want to be completely sure if that something

584
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: is happening is not an OP, do it yourself. Stop

585
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: yelling about it on Twitter. Do it yourself. Then you'll

586
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 1: know it's not an OP as a general rule. As

587
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: a general rule, look at France. What do the French

588
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: do whenever something they consider a right gets taken away

589
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: from them? They burn downtown Paris down, They light banks

590
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: on fire. They like Paris. Everyone who has gets selected

591
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: to a position of power in France knows that if

592
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: they cross certain lines, the capital will be ungovernable. Um

593
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: and there's a reason why French people have such quality healthcare.

594
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: Well with with with that note, I mean, I can't

595
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: believe we're ending on the note be be like the French.

596
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: I just is the friendship made a lot of good calls,

597
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: a lot of bad ones to not trying to whitewash France,

598
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: but there's a there's a number of things they got

599
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: spot on. Anyway, we will we will be counting down

600
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: the days until that thirty day marker, and who knows,

601
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: maybe other attacks will happen with people also calling themselves

602
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: Jaan's revenge because and obviously this is something that we

603
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: as journalists have no opinion on one way or the other.

604
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: We're just reporting, just pure reporting. Anyway, Listen to listen

605
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: to people who did cool stuff, to to hear about

606
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: the Jaane collective, and maybe also recreationally read about what

607
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: different civilian groups are doing in Ukraine and the degree

608
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: to which of wide variety of incredibly available tools um

609
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: can can be repurposed in neat ways. All Right, I

610
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: think I think that I think that's the stude. That's

611
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: a good d It could happen here as a production

612
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

613
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

614
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

615
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

616
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: for It could Happen here, updated monthly at cool zone

617
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,