1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: where I talked to people who inspire me about how 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: they got to where they are and where they think 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: they're still going. Station with a phenomenal woman, but I 5 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: have long andmired She's bold, collaborative, and an absolute boss. 6 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: She's Jenny Conner. Jenny is a television writer and producer 7 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: who has worked alongside Len and Dunham. Is the co 8 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: executive producer and showrunner of Girls for all six of 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: the hit shows seasons. She continued her partnership with Dunham 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: on HBO's Camping, while also working with her to create 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: the popular feminist newsletter Lenny Letter. Just last year, Jenny 12 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: signed a multi year overall deal with Fox twenty one 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: Television Studios, where she'll be creating, overseeing, and producing various 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: series for the studios platforms. I know I speak for 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: many of us when I say that I am so 16 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: excited to see what Jenny is going to create next 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: now that she is helming her very own studio world. 18 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: In my conversation with Jenny, we discussed imposter syndrome, hippie 19 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: progressive schools, the ins and outs are running a show, 20 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: and how restaurant experience translates to brucing. We also touch 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: on Jenny's early career stints in development and as a 22 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: Hollywood assistant, and how she forged her path as a 23 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: TV writer under the mentoring wing of Jedd avataw For 24 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: anyone interested in the entertainment industry, this conversation really pulls 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: back the veil and gets into much of the unseen 26 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: work that goes into each and every production. You're gonna 27 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: love this one. Enjoy. Do you remember when we met 28 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: the first time? No, I don't either. I like you 29 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: just were in my life, I know, and I feel 30 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: like it was like it's been it was like three 31 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: times before, or the Laura Brandon er, which is the 32 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: most recent time, and but I cannot think of one 33 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: of those locations me neither. I just know that I 34 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 1: see you at things, and I think we really got 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: into it because we started to follow each other, so 36 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: there was already. You know, sometimes you have this thing 37 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: where you you become like a digital friend of a 38 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: person who's work you know, and then you realize they're 39 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: also a cool person and it's so relieving. And I 40 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: felt that way about you because I was I'm such 41 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: a fan of your work and your writing and obviously 42 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: you know what you guys did with Girls and how 43 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: that show came on the scene, um, and what you've 44 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: done since. I just was like, this woman is cool 45 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: as ship and you are so thanks for that. Thank you. Yes, no, 46 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: that was one of those Instagram friendships that really transitions 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: that work into real life. Yeah. I love it absolutely, 48 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: But yes, I cannot remember. I like I can remember that. 49 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: It felt like I feel like there was one daytime 50 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: thing and the rest of your nighttime. But that's all 51 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: I got. Yeah, just things. Yeah, but too to go 52 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: back a bit, you know, Girls obviously was such a 53 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: huge I would imagine career moment, you know, when you 54 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: create this show and then it's become this sort of 55 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: cultural icon. But before you get there, how did creativity? 56 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: How did all this begin for you? Were you, like 57 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: if I met Jenny at ten? Were you writing stories? 58 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: Were you? I was? But I'm not one of those 59 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: I was not one of those kids who was just 60 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: um sort of head in a book, solitary writing, like, um, 61 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: Katie Dipple, do you know Katie. She's a great comedy 62 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: writer and she it was once on a panel with 63 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: her and she told the story about how she was 64 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: like kid detective and wrote sort of a newspaper about 65 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: her beat, which was mainly I think following her sister around. 66 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: And that, to me is sort of what I expect 67 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: to hear and love to hear from writers. And I'm 68 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: truly not that I wrote always, and you know, could 69 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: write a good letter something like that, but um, I 70 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: didn't have that drive for writing. Um It's sort of 71 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: it came much later, I thought. I mean, when I 72 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: was in my twenties, I just wanted jobs, right, so 73 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: that paid well. So I worked in development at Tribeca 74 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: um And, And I mean first I was an assistant 75 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: there and then I left to be like another kind 76 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: of more executive assistant, and then I came back and 77 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: Jane rosen Fell graciously welcomed me back to do development. 78 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: And during that time I was just sort of a 79 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, privileged asshole living in New York having a 80 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,559 Speaker 1: really good time um And, which is where I drew 81 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: so much of girls from um which was funny because 82 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: Lena as a person who can process things so quickly 83 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,679 Speaker 1: that she could go on a date the night before 84 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: and write about it the next day. And I was 85 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: like it took me twenty years to be able to 86 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: process my twenties into work. You know. Um, but can 87 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: I ask you a question, just for people listening who 88 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: maybe don't have the experiences industry you do, What does 89 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: it mean to be an assistant at a place like Tribeca? 90 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: And then what does it mean to be working in development? How? 91 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: How do those how do those worlds function? Okay? So 92 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: I think there's a kind of assistant that's a Hollywood 93 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: assistant that is sort of not the idea of what 94 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: a secretary used to be. It's someone who does so 95 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: much personal work, um, a lot of planning, a lot 96 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: of sort of picking things up from someone's house midnight, 97 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: that kind of work UM, and organizational as well. And 98 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: I at a certain point quit that job and was 99 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: a temp. And I was a temp during this time 100 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: in the nineties where most of my peers who had 101 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: gone to college were doing internet stuff and something in 102 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: the internet bubble. So I was like a very high 103 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: end demand temp. And I had also been a Hollywood assistant, 104 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: which is like an entirely other kind of job. And 105 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: I remember, you know how the models were always like 106 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: I won't get out of bed for less than whatever 107 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: ten dollars a day or whatever they used to say. 108 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not getting out of bed for 109 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: less than twenty one hour, which was an incredible amount 110 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: of money at that point. And so I would go 111 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: and work for like the head of the New York 112 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: Stock Exchange and or the vice president UM. And he 113 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: was going to Martha's vineyard that weekend, and I gave 114 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: him like forty options of travel and he couldn't believe it. 115 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: And I was like, Oh, Hollywood assistance are very different. 116 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: We're sort of expected to do UM much more than 117 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: sort of organized someone's work life. So that's sort of, 118 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: I think explains what a Hollywood assistant is. And it's 119 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: also answering phones and getting lunch and all of that. 120 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:29,559 Speaker 1: And then development is UM sort of working to try 121 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: to develop projects for the place you're working and for 122 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: the boss you're working for. So when I worked at Tribeca, 123 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: which was is de Niro and UM Jane Rosenthal's company 124 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: because it was in New York, I was sort of 125 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: focused on book scouting, which is trying to get books 126 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: early and acquire the rights to them and then try 127 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: to make something creative out of them. I mean, they 128 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 1: are something creative, but try to bring it to film 129 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: our television. So that's sort of what development was, um. 130 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: And but I wasn't particularly good at that job. I 131 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: think I'm much better now since I've become a writer, 132 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: But at that point I was a by a landslide, 133 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: a much better waitress than I was, UM a development person, 134 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: and I was given a lot of responsibility, which I 135 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: really was fortunate to have. But I'm not going to say, like, 136 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: I'm looking for someone that reminds me of myself at 137 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: that age when I'm hiring. So yeah, mm hmm. Now 138 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: your parents were writers, are our writers? Um? Do you 139 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: think that that sort of influenced you when you were 140 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: in school and then eventually wound up being an assistant? 141 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: Like did their writing kind of push you toward the industry? 142 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: It did, But I will say if anything, my father 143 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: especially really tried to talk me out of it. He 144 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: was like, I don't know. I remember him talking about 145 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: William Goldman's book and who wrote m huge, huge movies, 146 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: very very successful career. In his book, he's just he 147 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: talks a lot about how poorly he's treated and how 148 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: poorly writers are treated. And I remember my dad saying 149 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: if that guy doesn't have a good experience, like, what 150 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: chance do we have? And I think he was also 151 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: particularly frustrated in his career at that point. But I 152 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: think he what kinds of stuff was he working? I mean, 153 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: I don't know, but he seems to have much less 154 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: a much less negative attitude at this point. So I 155 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: don't know specifically what that was, but what I would 156 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: say is that, um, you know, I think he would 157 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: have just been happy if I got I mean, he 158 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: would be happy if I'm happy, and he's very happy 159 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: for me now. But I think that when you're in 160 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: the life of a freelance writer, it doesn't always seem 161 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: like what you would want your children to do. It 162 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: doesn't feel very dependable. There's no health insurance, things like that, 163 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: although now none of that makes any difference because like everyone, 164 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: no one has a dependable job anywhere anymore. Right, So 165 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: they think that was what it was about. That's so interesting. Yeah. 166 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: I I always joke like I had the real sort 167 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: of child of immigrant parents mentality, and it was like, 168 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: you'll be a doctor or a lawyer or a doctor. 169 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: And I thought, I thought I wanted to go to 170 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: medical school, forever. And then I told my parents I 171 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: was going to apply to theater conservatories. My dad's a photographer. 172 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: My mom was like, this is your fault. You turned 173 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: her hobby into a career, and now her daughter thinks 174 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: she can do it too. You know. It was like 175 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: that you grew up here, right, Yeah, I got here 176 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: in l A. And so they had real panic about 177 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: it too. And I think it is I think the 178 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: the unpretty debility of any kind of freelance career. It's 179 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: hard for people. You're always nervous. I mean, I have 180 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: a thing. My husband was like this too, like we 181 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: wake up every day and think, today's the day it 182 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: all goes away. Yeah. Oh, by the way, I'll never 183 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: make another sense. Yeah, never, today's Today's is over. This 184 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: is the year that it ends for you. I'm glad 185 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: we could spend it together, for both of us. You know. 186 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: It's like that that TV show The End of the World. 187 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: But you know what made me feel better. I remember 188 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: a few years ago reading this interview with Harrison Ford 189 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: and like, you're Harrison Ford. You made Star Wars. Like 190 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: he's one of the biggest movie stars of all time. 191 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: He's freaking Indiana Jones you know, And he was saying 192 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,479 Speaker 1: that every time he starts a new film, he's convinced 193 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: that that will be the film that set will be 194 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: the one where they figure out he doesn't know what 195 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: he's doing. And I thought to myself, Oh, so if 196 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: Harrison Ford, I'm never going to not feel this way. 197 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: So what I should do? Just feel this way and 198 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: get over it and go do my job? Yeah, and 199 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: realize I really think, Um, the muse only comes when 200 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: you're working, So no matter what, just do garbage ee 201 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: work at least writing, you know, which you have to 202 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: if you can, I can do nothing if I'm sitting 203 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:27,239 Speaker 1: there waiting for the muse. If I'm writing something good, bad, irrelevant, 204 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: then I get ideas. And so I do think. I'm 205 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: not sure how that applies to acting, but I do 206 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: think that it is powering through the impostor syndrome. Some 207 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: it's interesting to hear you talk about Harrison for because 208 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: someone has written something or maybe many people have about 209 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: it being kind of a uniquely female syndrome, the impostor syndrome. Um, 210 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: so I'm not sure. Maybe it's the uniquely entertainment. I 211 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: think it might be uniquely set positive and you know 212 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: as actors, as storytellers, our job is to be sensitive 213 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: and too create emotional lives for people. And so I 214 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: wonder if, perhaps even for you know, men in the industry, 215 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: if if just that bent towards the emotional sensitivity to others, 216 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: if they're just their characters, has something to do with it, 217 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: or don't talk about it as much? Yeah, And I 218 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: also I'm sure different types of men and how they 219 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: were raised and what their relationship to masculinity is, and 220 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: the list goes on. I saw this stat recently that 221 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: said that women will wait until they are nine certain 222 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: they can do a job before they apply for it 223 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: or ask for the promotion that they deserve, and men 224 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: decide they deserve the promotion or apply for the job 225 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: when they are certain they can do the job. That 226 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: sounds right, And I thought about, wow, just what that 227 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: fifty gap does to us? And how do we get 228 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: over it? How do we how do we throw ourselves 229 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: into it? But I'm not sure when I hear that 230 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: that either of those answers are correct. I'm not sure 231 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: that forty is the right number either. Do you think 232 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: it's lower? No? I think maybe we should all be 233 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: sevent sure we can do the job or I mean, 234 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: I really like a statistic. So I'm very excited about 235 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: this idea. But I think there's there might be somewhere 236 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: in between for everyone, because I think we've all witnessed 237 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: getting us people who aren't ready for jobs and probably 238 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: gets a lot of overqualified people who get bored easily 239 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: in their jobs. So maybe somewhere in between that would 240 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: be great, wouldn't that. I don't know. Maybe what was 241 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: your first job ever? My first well, baby sat a 242 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: little bit, but I i um, I worked in of restaurants, 243 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: So I worked um at this restaurant. Well, I worked 244 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: a little bit at um, an ice cream store that 245 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: was on nine of Montana or tenth and Montana. You 246 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: grew up here, I mean sort of. My parents moved 247 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: around a lot, but the biggest chunk was here. So 248 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: when I was a teenager, I worked at this place 249 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: called like it's called like the Dutch ice cream in 250 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: factory or something. And then Montana got built up and 251 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: then it became my god, I'm blanking on the name. 252 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: It's like a Santa Fe. It was of such a moment, 253 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: it was like a Santa Fe restaurant. The guest of thirties. 254 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: Something used to come in bab Lou that's what it 255 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: was called, and I was a sort of waitress hostess there. 256 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: And it's honestly, that experience is why I love to 257 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: hire people with restaurant experience, because it's producing, it's you 258 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: know you, especially when the job is sort of back 259 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: and forth, but you're managing all these people. Everyone wants 260 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: something from me at the exact same time. You have 261 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: to learn to communicate and say, you know, when someone 262 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: says get me that coffee? Who works with you and 263 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: you say, oh, yeah, hold on, I'm just going to 264 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: deliver these two plates. First, you have to be able 265 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: to talk to people about time frames. You have to 266 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: be really comfortable educating people. You have to be nice 267 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: to the public, whether you feel like it or not. 268 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: I just think it's like a really great way to 269 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: learn how to produce. So and actually, when we started 270 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: Girls and um our producer Gina, she told me that 271 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: she loves people with restaurant experience, and I was like, oh, well, 272 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: then we're gonna it's just gonna be perfect. And she 273 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: did get us the greatest crew ever. So did that 274 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: apply to everyone every sort of level of the crew. Like, no, 275 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: I mean not everyone obviously had restaurant experience. It was 276 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: more it's more about hiring newer people. I mean, because 277 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: I don't need you know, the electrician who worked at 278 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: a restaurant if he's been doing it for twenty years. Yeah, 279 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: I get that. So you were here here in l 280 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: A for the sort of biggest chunk of your child 281 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: And then what about college? College? I went back East, 282 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: but I also I went to boarding school, like a 283 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: hippie progressive board. Every school I ever went to was 284 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: a hippie progressive school. Thus the lack of history education 285 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: in my life. I don't know seriously anything about anything 286 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: UM for real, Like I like continents, I have trouble 287 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: with UM. And then what did you get from hippie 288 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: progressive school? You know, human skills, creativity, freedom, other weird friends, 289 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: being around artists a lot, but not so much education. 290 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: But so again, maybe that would be a nice place 291 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: to to get into the sixty five Yes exactly, exactly 292 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: maybe six education. Yes, that's right. I would love to 293 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: know more facts. Okay, so so also I don't read 294 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: that much nonfiction, so I'm not learning them that way either. 295 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: But I like to surround myself with people who know facts. Yeah, 296 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: like you're building a team exactly. Um. And so I 297 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: went to this like hippie progressive boarding school and was 298 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: also in California, that was in outside of Boston. So 299 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: you went back east earlier, yes, And that was ten 300 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: through twelve, and then I went to Sarah Lawrence um. 301 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: And so again definitely weird art schools with a lot 302 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: of freedom. And also I went to Crossroads here. So 303 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: all of these schools now, I would say are sort 304 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: of much closer to a normal school, but at the 305 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: times I went to them, they were real freak schools, 306 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: so which I loved, you know, I loved it that 307 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: you can't um, I can't take a class and that. 308 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: So I don't know, it's it's the sort of freaks 309 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: and geeks ethos, Yes exactly. And how did you come 310 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: speaking and freaks and geeks? How did you come to 311 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: work with Judd Apataw Because you know, now now we've 312 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: we've looked at school a bit. We know that there 313 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: was all the Tribeca assisting and the developing in between 314 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: and then getting two girls. You're working with Judd, You're 315 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: working with Lena Dunham. How does how does all that happen? Well, Actually, 316 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: John Hamburg, the comedy writer and director, had a lot 317 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: to do with it because he when I was in development, 318 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: I would take a lot of writers out to lunch 319 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: and be like, so, what's your day like? Because I 320 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: knew I wanted to do it, really I didn't know how. 321 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: And so and at a certain point John and I 322 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: became friends, and he just said, you know what, just 323 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: quit and do something else and become a writer. You're 324 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: using the same muscle all day. You're using your development 325 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: muscle in the morning and at night. You know, you're 326 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: obviously not one of those people who wakes up at 327 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: four am and writes, which I am not. And I 328 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,719 Speaker 1: mean I write in the morning, but I'm not like 329 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: a four am right before we're kind of person. And um, 330 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: and so I did, and that's when I became. I 331 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: had my second act as a waitress at a vegan 332 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: diner on the Lower East Side run by a model 333 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: um and then and then it was like a setting 334 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: Bret show. I mean, yeah, it closed in like six months, 335 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: but so maybe one season limited project. Maybe it's just 336 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: a short film. Yeah, And so then I went. Then 337 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: I moved back to l a and um or. I 338 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: actually moved with my baby daddy at that point to Chicago. 339 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: He was in business school. And then I would travel 340 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: back and forth, and I had a writing partner and 341 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: we got some jobs writing movies or movie adaptations. Nothing 342 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: ever got made, but we were in that process, and 343 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: then freak happened, like how how do you how do 344 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: you start getting jobs adapting or doing drafts on movies. Well, 345 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: I had come from being a development person and an assistance, 346 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: so I knew everyone's name, and I had relationships, even 347 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: if they were just phone relationships, and so at that 348 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: point I could call and ask people, you know, do 349 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: you want to represent us? And we had a script 350 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: that we wrote called Wannabe and we it hadn't we 351 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: hadn't tried to sell it yet. It was just a sample, 352 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: and that script got us other work. And so we 353 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: would go in There would be you know, for writing entities, 354 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: partners or single people whatever, vying for the same job 355 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: to adapt some usually female driven comedy, and then um, 356 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 1: we would either get it or not get it. It's 357 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: a little bit of a lottery. And so and then 358 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: we were obsessed with freaks and gigs. We were obsessed 359 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: with it, and we I mean just because it was 360 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: sort of the most grounded in reality show I could 361 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: and because I went to freak schools, Like we didn't 362 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: even have that experience of like, you know, the popular kids, 363 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: not popular kids, stoner kids, Like I went to schools 364 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: with twenty people in a class, and you know, many 365 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: of them lived on farms. Like it wasn't that kind 366 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 1: of hierarchy. But but I think that, um, it just 367 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 1: really touched me. It was a kind of writing I 368 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: had never seen before. Um there were scenes. There's a 369 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: scene where um, Bill comes home and he's kind of 370 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: a latchkey kid and he's just I think he makes 371 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: himself a grilled cheese or something and just watches, Um, 372 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: Gary Shandling, do you stand up or something. I can't 373 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: I'm getting all these facts wrong, I'm sure, but I 374 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: was like, you're allowed to do a scene where someone's 375 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: just watching someone in eating and enjoying themselves. Like it 376 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: really kind of blew my mind, like the way all 377 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: good art really does when it's something new and you 378 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: just think, wow, I am not seen that before. And um, 379 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: and so then we had just started meeting with TV 380 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: agents at our agency, and we Jed was there, and 381 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: Jed needed writers for undeclared, so UM we interviewed a 382 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: couple of times, I think, and then got the job. 383 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: And then you kind of never stopped working with Judd 384 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: once you work with him, Like, even in all the 385 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: years we weren't doing a specific project together, I was 386 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: always at all of his table reads and every screening 387 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: and you know, giving notes and helping out and doing 388 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: anything I could. And UM, you know, he's really, as 389 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: you can tell by the work he's made, he's UM 390 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: a very effective man horror. So I, you know, sort 391 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: of would take any opportunity to see him in his element. UM. 392 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: And then we were just friends for a long time. 393 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: And then Lena Sue Agel, who had been an agent 394 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: at u t A where I was a client United 395 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: Talent Agency UM. She then went to run HBO and 396 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: UM Lena needed a supervisor and there were based on 397 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: her movie Tiny Furniture, and there were a lot of 398 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: people who wanted to do that, and a lot of 399 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: them were men and big with big companies and UM, 400 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: and Sue said, no, I think it should be a woman. 401 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: I think it should be one person. And so Lena, 402 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: I think, sat down with a few people and then 403 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: we decided to work together and like two weeks later, 404 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: I think something like that. A month later Lena would 405 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: know the day it's it's very bad at dates. But 406 00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: then Jed called me and said, I heard your working 407 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: with Lee Lena Dunham. Do you want do you you want 408 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: help with that? And I was like, yes, please. And 409 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: there wasn't even a script. There was just she had 410 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: what was called a blind script deal, which is like 411 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: they loved her, they loved her movie, so they gave 412 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: her a contract to write something for them. They didn't 413 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: know what it was going to be. And so did 414 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: she have an idea when you guys started working together 415 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: or was it something he started to create together. Well, 416 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: what I would say is that her idea was sort 417 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: of the thing that she said to HBO before I 418 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: was involved at all, is I don't see my friends 419 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: on television, um so, and sort of the way Judd 420 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: and I looked at it was it'll be a lot 421 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: like tiny furniture, but it will be a little bit 422 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: funnier and with more girls and so. And I think also, 423 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: you know what's great in the development process is if 424 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: you have something to show that doesn't surprise people, you know, 425 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: because it's such a kind of ridiculous system that I 426 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: go to you and I say, here's this idea I have, 427 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: and you're going to picture it one way and I'm 428 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: gonna picture it in another way. And then you say, yeah, 429 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: I really like that, and then I give you the 430 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: script of it and you're like, well, that isn't how 431 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: I pictured it, but okay, I like this, and then 432 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: you're going to shoot it, and then it's even more 433 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: different from what you pictured it, because why would you 434 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: From a twenty minute meeting, I know what my plan was. 435 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: And the great thing about having tiny furniture was there 436 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 1: were no surprises. It was Lena as the lead, it 437 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: was going to be mostly the same tone um and 438 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: it was the same DP, the same writer, the same director. 439 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: So it was gonna look like that, so no one 440 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: was surprised, and so I think we were very fortunate 441 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: with that, and that's why things with Girls went very quickly. 442 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: Was not a long development process. Got it now getting 443 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,239 Speaker 1: there from Undeclared if you look at the kind of 444 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: connection but trained the project and especially working with jeddon 445 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: Undeclared and then having him come and work with you 446 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: and Lena on Girls. What do you think you learned 447 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: being in the writer's room? And undeclared, what do you 448 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: think were the things that now in hindsight really stand 449 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: out to you that you have carried since. Well, First 450 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: of all, I will say one of the things Jed 451 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: does which I really appreciate, is that it's a meritocracy 452 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: in there. He doesn't really care about someone's level, how 453 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: many shows they've been on. You know, Seth Rogan was 454 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: eighteen on that show and wrote like four scripts the 455 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: first season or something, maybe more. Um and And I 456 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,719 Speaker 1: think that's something you don't see very much there's And 457 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: I think it creates a really creative writer's room. And 458 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: I tried to do that too, um and and ground 459 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: things in reality. I remember we turned into script and 460 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: there was one storyline and he was like, that sounds 461 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: like a sitcom, Like you're writing it like a sitcom. 462 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: And we were like, oh, yeah, I guess we are. 463 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: And so we had to sort of rethink everything because 464 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: it was our first TV job really and um But 465 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: I would also say, I mean in some ways that 466 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: show spoiled me terribly because we were all the writers 467 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: were incredibly close. A lot of us were really new 468 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: and um because it was a meritocracy, Jud you could 469 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: be a staff writer and you would be on the 470 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: stage for your episode. You would be in casting, you 471 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: would be an editing. It was there was no like 472 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: just stay in the room and right. So we learned 473 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: so much and that's how I've always done it because 474 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: my dream is to train people to do my job 475 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: so I don't have to do my job anymore. So 476 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, there's this idea that sort of people have 477 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: to earn their way, and they do, but why not 478 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: give people a chance? So I would say connectively, that's 479 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: the thing that I've learned the most from Jud. And 480 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: also just this free of sort of right fifty jokes 481 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: when you're looking for one, and don't spend your whole 482 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: life on just write them. Something good will come. He 483 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: used to make us do this thing that I make 484 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: everyone do now, which is right, fifty ideas for the show. 485 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: And we sit there and you're tortured and you write them, 486 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: and then he would be like, okay, now, right, fifty 487 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: ideas for the show. When you were just out of ideas, 488 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: and that's when like the really weird stuff would happen, 489 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: and I think that's kind of a great way to 490 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: explain the way jet works, you know, and when you're 491 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: on set, it's free. And I learned a lot about 492 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: being on set for him and trying jokes on stage 493 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: and doing a lot of different things on the day, 494 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: and not being afraid of a scene is not working 495 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: to sit there and rewrite it because something's not going well. 496 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: So there's a freedom to that that feels really inspiring 497 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: to me. I mean, my god, all of it. But 498 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,959 Speaker 1: this idea of if it isn't working, just rewrite it. 499 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not ideal, but sometimes you get there 500 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: in a scene is just broken, right. But but to 501 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: have that freedom and also to have the pressure lifted off, 502 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: really what that says to me underneath is like you're 503 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: lifting the pressure off of this idea of perfection or 504 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,239 Speaker 1: that you have to achieve. And and when when you 505 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: have the freedom obviously not ideal, but when you have 506 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: the freedom to throw something at the wall and realize 507 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: it's not sticking and then just do something else. And 508 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: it isn't an indictment of your ability. It doesn't mean 509 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: you were bad. It just means the truth, which is 510 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: that creative things have their own life. And if if 511 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: this little being is like weird and shrinking, make a newer, better, 512 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: shiny or bigger one, and that I would imagine that 513 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: that just makes you more creative on your feet. I mean. 514 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: And also, and this is like maybe not great about 515 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: my personality, but I live for those moments like I 516 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: of a crisis. I love having to solve thing. I 517 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: think that's why I'm drawn to being a producer to um, 518 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: So those moments to me are the most exciting. And 519 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: especially if it's happening on the stage, then you are 520 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: figuring it out with actors too, And not that you're 521 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: all sitting in the writers from figuring it out, but 522 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: they know when it's not working, and a lot of 523 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: times they're the ones who tell you, and so then 524 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: you sort of have to figure out the way to 525 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: fix it. Um. And I think that is one of 526 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: the more exciting parts of the work. And again, it's 527 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: not ideal, and you can't do it all the time 528 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: because that's a nightmare. But when it does happen and 529 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,239 Speaker 1: it works, you just feel like genius, you know, like 530 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: there's um this scene and the Godfather, I hope I 531 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: get this right. My father told me this story. But 532 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: there's you know, Luca broad Sky sleeps with the fishes, 533 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: and he is he comes in to meet the Godfather 534 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: and he's very nervous and the actor they shot that scene, 535 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: and the actor was really nervous and couldn't get the 536 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: words out. And then so what he did was put 537 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: that guy on a bench for an earlier scene practicing 538 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: saying it like it's such an honor to mean you 539 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: Godfather or whatever his line was, so that you knew, 540 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: so that it informed the next scene why he couldn't 541 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: say it, And it's so much better that way. Wow, 542 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, so like that's sort of the dream, that's 543 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: a god that's a good story. I know there's a 544 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: better way to tell it, though, No, I disagree, I 545 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: actually really because it doesn't actually need to be specific. 546 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: The whole point is that you can allow a person 547 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: to be a human and even when something isn't quote 548 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: unquote working, it's not going to the plan according to 549 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: plan on the page, According to the plan on the page, 550 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: third times a charm there that you can still build 551 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: around it. You can allow it to have a life, 552 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: and instead of criticizing someone and recasting that person and 553 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: reshooting the scene a week later, they actually gave that 554 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: character more life in this tiny little addition, and how 555 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,479 Speaker 1: special I know, and it's so much better for it, 556 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: Like there's something at this I'm really going to suck up. 557 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: But in mathematics there's like the elegant solution, which is this, 558 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to destroyed this now. I told you I 559 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: don't know facts. I mean, I don't know, but it's like, 560 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: say you're building a bridge and then they realize it's 561 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: sort of one eight billion of something off and then 562 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: they have to solve it, and then it's an even 563 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: better solution than the original one was going to be. 564 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: I'm literally going to get hate mail from people who 565 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: actually know for everyone just needs to relax, honestly, you 566 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's like how they say a 567 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: broken bone grows back stronger or something like that. But 568 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: I do think that, you know, there are those moments 569 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: in art that are so exciting and um sort of 570 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: the moments you live for, and not just the adrenaline part, 571 00:33:54,800 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: but the the are we capable of being creative fixing this? 572 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: You know, at the moment on the day, really all 573 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: sort of rallying together. When it works, it really works 574 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: I learned so much about that. I got to work 575 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: on this great show on Netflix called Easy, and Joe 576 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: Swanberg makes the show and she's so brilliant, and you 577 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: know he he architects the whole season and it's an anthology, 578 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: so every episodes about different characters, and every episode is 579 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: outlined and there's little chunks of dialogue in the outline, 580 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: but there's no script like her Your Enthusiasm. Yeah, it's 581 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: like a there. It's essentially like bowling with bumpers. He's like, 582 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: this is the lane I want you to be in. 583 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,439 Speaker 1: The lane is yours? Like throw the ball anyway you want. 584 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: I need you to make these three points and the 585 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: rest of the scene belongs to you. And it's terrifying, 586 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: but it's also so freeing. And even in this episode 587 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: that I did, my coworker Jacqueline, who was on the 588 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: podcast a while back, he's amazing. Ah, there's this whole 589 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: thing where she and I are going to go on 590 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: a date. And as it was planned in the outline, 591 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: when she finished doing freelance work for me at this 592 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: company that was mine in the in the in the 593 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: you know world of this show, then we would we're 594 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: going to go on a date because it wasn't like 595 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: me tooish, like once you're not unemployee, I can ask 596 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: you out and you want to go out with me, 597 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: And now it's all copacetic. But that scene didn't exist, 598 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: and we were crushing our day and we had the 599 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: time to add something, and so we just added a 600 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: scene on the fly, and we added this scene where 601 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: we talked about it and how much we're gonna miss 602 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: working together and I'm like, well now that I'm not, 603 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: you know, being inappropriate, like I can ask you to dinner, right, 604 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: And it's this whole thing, and and it it came 605 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 1: from an actual feeling that we as actors were having 606 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: about missing a moment together and and so we just 607 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: did it, and the freedom to just do it, to 608 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: just make it, to try something. And if it hadn't worked, 609 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: it wouldn't have been in the show. But it did 610 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: work until it was and it it really I can't 611 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: explain how. I guess maybe psychologically as an artist it 612 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: opened something for me because I've been raised, I think, 613 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: as so many women have to be a good girl 614 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: and do things by the book and you know, paid 615 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: by numbers, and and coming from the kind of TV 616 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: that I grew up doing, where I had writers who 617 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: were so nutso about the words and who never allowed 618 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: for any freedom, and I would try to take it 619 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: where I could get it, and sometimes I would say, like, 620 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,760 Speaker 1: can we just do an extra take and screw around? 621 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 1: But there was a lot of ego, and a lot 622 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: of older male ego, and people didn't want that. So 623 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 1: even if we did something great, even if it wound 624 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: up in the director's cut, it would usually go away 625 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: and the producer's cut and they would go back to 626 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: the words on the page. And I only learned this 627 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 1: because I was like obsessed with going to production meetings 628 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: and like figuring out extra things where I could it. 629 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: But it it helped to break me of the habit 630 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: to do it just as it is on the page, 631 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: to prove that I'm really good at this, and to 632 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: do the thing the way a good girl does it, 633 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: and not cause now I'm like, we're making about an 634 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: art like we should be finger painting, like let's have 635 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: a good time here, and so I I'm having this 636 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: sort of as you're talking about this, I realized I'm 637 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: having this nostalgic feeling, and the feeling is one of freedom, 638 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: I have tasted as an artist everything it is, and 639 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: I think by the way both ways work, Like I'm 640 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: not trying to improvise in a Tom Stopper show. You 641 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: know what, you couldn't improvise with Aaron Sorkin and poetry, 642 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: that's right, And so it's a different It's definitely a 643 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: different dynamic and a different kind of work. Um so right, 644 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 1: like Easy was was more improvised, collaborative method, it was 645 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: more fluid, but absolutely it I think that, Um there's 646 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: just room for both in different kinds of work, and 647 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: you have to know how to do both. As a 648 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: working artist, you have to and you have to know 649 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,919 Speaker 1: where but how fun to work with people and learn 650 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: that to learn where to put it, where it's appropriate, 651 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: where it has to be by the book, and where 652 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: it can be fluid, you know. And it sounds like 653 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: that's what this come up experience was like absolutely for 654 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: you and so cool. Yeah, work with that if you can. 655 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: He's yeah, I mean, oh my god, I love him. 656 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: I auditioned for him on a movie and I won't 657 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 1: tell people what it is because I'm not trying to like, no, 658 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 1: I understand you, but I did. I got it, got 659 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: down to two actresses for this phenomenal movie that he did, 660 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,720 Speaker 1: and he just was like, you're so funny, and also 661 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: you look like you're twelve, Like, I don't believe that 662 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: you could be this person because this was very early, 663 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: UM in my having started to and I was playing 664 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: a teenager on TV for many years even after this audition. 665 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: But it was so cool where I just was like, 666 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: it was a fun process to go through. I'm sure 667 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: you're doing a ton of improv. Oh my god. And 668 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: I just loved it and I would yes, I'll put 669 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: it out there. I would love to work with him 670 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: at something. Now that I have a little more freedom 671 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: for the first time in my career, I'm I'm available 672 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: for ship's great. Yeah, it's cool. That's very cool. How So, 673 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: when you guys get into it, because you said you 674 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: started to work with Lena, she said, my friends are 675 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: not represented on TV, which I still feel less less 676 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: So now I think there's so much more representation, but 677 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: I still am like, where's a group of friends that 678 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: looks like my group of friends? Now you have to 679 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: make that. I know. I'm thinking about it. We'll talk 680 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: about that after that. UM, but Judd came into it 681 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: and said, what, like, can I help you run this show? 682 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: He came in and just said, I want to work 683 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: on this. He loved Tiny Furniture like I loved it. 684 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: He called me at the time the nf Ficial distributor 685 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: of Tiny Furniture because it wasn't out yet. But I 686 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: would just have U t A make me DVDs a bit, 687 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: and I would give it to people in different locations 688 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: because I just felt like everyone should see it. That 689 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,839 Speaker 1: was before I was even working on it. But um, 690 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: so he came in and again there's like just this 691 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,240 Speaker 1: sort of language of Judd, which is like, all right, 692 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: let's do this, you know kind of and he so 693 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: she started working on a script and she had her characters, 694 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: and um, you know, it was very late in the 695 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: process where Jed said, you need the moment where her 696 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: parents cut her off. You know that wasn't in the 697 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: original script. Things like that. That's like his brain and um, 698 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, he looked at every script and gave notes 699 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: and was in editing a lot. But he was the 700 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: California producer and I was the New York one. And 701 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I just I've always loved working with him. 702 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: We have a very good relationship creative. I mean we're 703 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 1: friends too, but we have a very good creative relationship. 704 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: And um, so it was sort of a magical time 705 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: that time. That's so cool. And what what goes into 706 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: running a show? You know? Again, for people who are listening, 707 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: who are inspired by what we all do, but who 708 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: have not been in the room, what do you do 709 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: as a showrunner? What does your day look like? I 710 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: mean it all depends on the show, of course, but um, 711 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: you sort of answer every question in the world from 712 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: anyone who wants an answer. Everyone is coming to you. 713 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 1: It's um and this is not a complaint. This is 714 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: why I think it's such a great job. But people 715 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: want to know when the script is coming. They want 716 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: the script that you worked on. They want to know 717 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: what sucks, the character should wear. They want to know 718 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: if it's okay, if the electrician can have two weeks off. 719 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: They want to It's everything. And the way I like 720 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: to work is I hire people that are really really 721 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: good at their jobs and let them do them. So Luckily, 722 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,399 Speaker 1: when I worked with our producers, um Gina Hayman and 723 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: Eileen Landers, who came to us from eight years on 724 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: the Sopranos, so like she kind of knew what she 725 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: was doing. Um and very overqualified. But so they manage 726 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: so much of the production part and of course we 727 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: had a big say in all of that, um and 728 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: the creative choices, but we were very lucky to have 729 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 1: people who did a lot of those things. But you 730 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: run the writer's room, so we have all the writers, 731 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 1: and you create what the season is going to be 732 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: and then go smaller and smaller so that then it's 733 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: what this episode is going to be. Then it's what 734 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 1: Marnie's story is going to be in this episode. UM. 735 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: And then you you know, start to pick best cast, 736 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: and you start to pick locations, and you pick directors 737 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: and I mean, you just make all the choices that 738 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 1: go into a television show. Does that sound right to you? 739 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of, like if there's a better 740 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: way to explain what you do. You're like kind of 741 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: a mom too, and um, and you're writing and your 742 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: writing scripts, So how much of the day are you 743 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: writing versus doing all the logistical things that that are 744 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: a show runner's responsibility. I mean, we tried to get 745 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,240 Speaker 1: a lot of the writing done before we started shooting. 746 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: That didn't really work out. Every year, but it we 747 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: would have a few scripts going in and um, Lena's 748 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: like maybe the fastest writer in the world and obviously 749 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: fantastic at it, So that made things easier in rewrites. 750 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: And so we would take all the writers with that, 751 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: we had the writers rom in l I would take 752 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: them all to New York and then go back and 753 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,800 Speaker 1: forth sort of between the room, MA and the set 754 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 1: and and um, you know, we had really talented writers, 755 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,399 Speaker 1: so we would let them do their jobs too. That's 756 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,280 Speaker 1: really cool that you were able to delegate in that way. 757 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm honestly just like I don't understand people 758 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: who are super controlling in those situations. It is not 759 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 1: for me. I'm way too lazy. I don't want to 760 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: do other people's jobs. I want everyone to do my job, 761 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,919 Speaker 1: and I want to be on a beach. So I think, um, 762 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: that's just the kind of way I work. UM, And 763 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 1: I do think there, um there's something sort of inherently 764 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: female in that UM because it's not a huge ego. 765 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:47,719 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying men don't do it. Jet is 766 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: very much a guy who does that. But for me, 767 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: having been on other sets of other people, there are 768 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: men I find that men have a harder time relanguishing 769 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: control in my anecdotal research. Mm hmm. I also think 770 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: the way that our producers crewed up our show. And 771 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: they hate this when I say it because they think 772 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:18,240 Speaker 1: it's a simplification or oversimplification. But Eileen and Gina didn't 773 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: just like hire the best people ever. They hired the 774 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,800 Speaker 1: best people who then would get along with the other people. 775 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: They tried to create our harmonious set while still getting 776 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: the best people, and that to me felt inherently female. 777 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 1: And they are always like Eilien's like, that isn't what 778 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,359 Speaker 1: it is, It's just being good at your job. But 779 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: I think there's something female and caring whether people get 780 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: along and knowing that that can be a secret to 781 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: great work well and in seeing that rather than because 782 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:51,360 Speaker 1: women have been taught to be so sensitive to relationships 783 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: and other people's feelings, when you can see how other 784 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: people's feelings layer, maybe it's just more inherent to knowing 785 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: and thus being so good at your job knowing that 786 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: those people will mesh because you can see the overlap 787 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,400 Speaker 1: and whether it you know, basket weaves or is like 788 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: I had on collisions. And I think a lot of 789 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: people often will just go for the head on collision 790 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,839 Speaker 1: or not care, thinking well that everyone will work it out, 791 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,440 Speaker 1: and they do. I mean, the thing that's like, I 792 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,879 Speaker 1: think a really big crime is that you can be 793 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: on the loveliest set in the world and everyone is 794 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: so great and the work doesn't turn out to be 795 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,719 Speaker 1: great and vice versa. Like I wish that when you 796 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 1: watched the greatest show on Earth, you knew they part 797 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 1: of that reason that happened, just because everyone just loved 798 00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,360 Speaker 1: each other and collaborated and it was so wonderful, and 799 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: obviously like that isn't the case, but I wish there. 800 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I just think, why not have it be fun? 801 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,720 Speaker 1: You know, if you can, if you have any control 802 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,839 Speaker 1: over that that How how far into the show were 803 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,399 Speaker 1: you when you decided you wanted to direct? So far 804 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: so the first year I was like, maybe I should 805 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: direct one, and I was like, let's just get the 806 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: show happening, And thank god he said that because it 807 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: would have been so distracting. And then I didn't do 808 00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 1: it till season five because I felt like I couldn't 809 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: be gone for that long because it really takes you 810 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 1: out of the world of showrunner. When you're directing, you know, 811 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: you have so much prep to do, you know, all 812 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 1: of the steps and the scouting and the casting, and 813 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,840 Speaker 1: and that's something people don't realize is it's not like 814 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: a director shows up on a Monday when the episode starts. 815 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: You've done weeks of prep. You've had to cast every 816 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,359 Speaker 1: role that's in that episode. You've had to approve every 817 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,400 Speaker 1: piece of wardrobe. You've had to go in for fittings, 818 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: you go in for meetings with every department, had you 819 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: go on days of location scouts. It's not like the 820 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,240 Speaker 1: coffee shops and the sidewalks that these shows are shooting 821 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,320 Speaker 1: on just appear. Each one has to be selected. Every 822 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 1: car that's in the background is picked every There's so 823 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: much work that goes into it, and so it's almost 824 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,200 Speaker 1: the invisible labor of the product that you know, most 825 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,600 Speaker 1: viewers don't know about. So I think it's good to Yeah, 826 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,440 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I think I mean, you know, it 827 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: was funny because I think when I wanted to do 828 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 1: it first season, it was because I knew so little. 829 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 1: I sort of wasn't I didn't know to be afraid 830 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,920 Speaker 1: of it. And then I sort of spent four years 831 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,719 Speaker 1: not only being afraid of it, but also realizing that 832 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 1: in the job of show winner. I always thought, well, 833 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 1: I get to do all the good stuff a director does, 834 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,200 Speaker 1: but I don't have to go on as many tech scouts, 835 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,359 Speaker 1: you know. And and so I always thought, I I 836 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 1: get to go in, I get to make up the words, 837 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: I get to tell someone a different way to do something. 838 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,319 Speaker 1: I felt like I was directing. Um, so I thought, well, 839 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,400 Speaker 1: why bother? And then fifth season actually calling Quinn was 840 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 1: on our show and he said to me, we got 841 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,279 Speaker 1: to direct. And I was like, I don't know. And 842 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:55,839 Speaker 1: he was like, oh, yeah, You're never going to find 843 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 1: a nicer space than this to direct. You gotta do it, 844 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,359 Speaker 1: and and so I did. And I actually wound up 845 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: loving it and did like the part of the storytelling 846 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: that was visual that felt different to me. And I 847 00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: did learn a lot. And it was interesting because I 848 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:16,840 Speaker 1: had spent so much time in editing to sort of 849 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 1: then go back to directing and think about it in 850 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 1: that way. And um, and you know, I did. I 851 00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 1: think a much better job than I ever would have 852 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,719 Speaker 1: done the first year because I was so worried that 853 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,000 Speaker 1: I was going to let down the crew. You know, 854 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,640 Speaker 1: we had such a good relationship. We were like family. 855 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 1: There was so much mutual respect, and I was like, 856 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,720 Speaker 1: if I fucked this up in front of these people, 857 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna fucking kill myself. Um. So I also worked, 858 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,280 Speaker 1: I think, way harder than I would have the first 859 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: year when you kind of just think like, oh, I'll 860 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,400 Speaker 1: try directing. Because I also had seen a ton of 861 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,680 Speaker 1: men do that, like just being other roles on shows 862 00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: and be very be thet sure they could to do it, 863 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,239 Speaker 1: and then you have to clean up their mess in 864 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: the yet yes and I by the way, or they're great. 865 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,160 Speaker 1: But I waited till I was like two percent sure 866 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,480 Speaker 1: I could do it. So there, you know, we have 867 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: to find the balance. Why do you think that show? 868 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 1: And maybe it's easier to answer in hindsight, why do 869 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,239 Speaker 1: you think it resonated with people so much? I mean, 870 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,240 Speaker 1: if I knew that I would be on the next show, 871 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,480 Speaker 1: that's like lightning in a bottle. I really don't know. 872 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: I mean I know sort of the stories that people 873 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:36,320 Speaker 1: tell about seeing something they hadn't seen before. Um and 874 00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,120 Speaker 1: I mean we had one woman who came in who 875 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:46,120 Speaker 1: said to us, you gave me the courage to have sex. Well, 876 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,640 Speaker 1: being on top, you know. So there was a lot 877 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 1: of the body stuff, which is great, and um, you know, 878 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:58,680 Speaker 1: she just had just this rare voice that no one 879 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:00,880 Speaker 1: had heard before. And I think jud and I always 880 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,839 Speaker 1: thought our job was to protect it, and we really did. 881 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,439 Speaker 1: And HBO was incredible to us about letting us do that. 882 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,480 Speaker 1: And people say about HBO like they leave you alone. 883 00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,480 Speaker 1: That's why the shows are good. And they didn't leave 884 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 1: us alone. They just gave us great notes and we're 885 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,440 Speaker 1: really fantastic collaborators and we were really lucky. Um. But 886 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,040 Speaker 1: I wish I could tell you why it struck such 887 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,839 Speaker 1: a nerve. I don't know, Um, you know, and it's 888 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,399 Speaker 1: really intimidating having done that show that did strike such 889 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 1: a nerve, good and bad. But at least people were 890 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,560 Speaker 1: talking about it, you know. And and I think it's 891 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,520 Speaker 1: hard to know. Um, it's scary to do the next thing. 892 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,640 Speaker 1: So what do you think the bad? Where do you 893 00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:47,799 Speaker 1: think the bad came from? And how did it feel 894 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,279 Speaker 1: to be on the receiving end of that stuff? I mean, 895 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:55,040 Speaker 1: Lena took so much of it obviously, um, and I 896 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,319 Speaker 1: mean a lot of it was correct, right, So we 897 00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,279 Speaker 1: learned a lot. I mean Lena was telling her own 898 00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,120 Speaker 1: story and there wasn't enough diversity in the story, and 899 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,960 Speaker 1: it came from the writer's room. There wasn't enough diversity 900 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,880 Speaker 1: in the writer's room. And we corrected that problem, and 901 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,839 Speaker 1: that was a great lesson to learn. And I think 902 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:19,160 Speaker 1: at that point, I was so sure that women weren't 903 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:23,279 Speaker 1: being represented properly and that we were bringing women to 904 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,040 Speaker 1: the forefront that we didn't think of the other people 905 00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,000 Speaker 1: we were leaving behind because I was always, you know, 906 00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,520 Speaker 1: either me or my partner or me alone. I was 907 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:37,479 Speaker 1: always the only female writer in a room. So it's 908 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,879 Speaker 1: it was something that, um, you know, people let us know. 909 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,560 Speaker 1: And I heard and uh, you know, if people are 910 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:51,080 Speaker 1: willing to let you grow, that is really really lucky, 911 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,759 Speaker 1: because you know, some people just get canceled and it's done. Um. 912 00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:02,880 Speaker 1: But and I think, um, you know, some of the 913 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:07,240 Speaker 1: stuff was like, well, you know, all the likability stuff 914 00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:12,000 Speaker 1: is always a little boring to me. Um. I always 915 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 1: prefer saying relatable. And I'm like, there are characters I'm 916 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,759 Speaker 1: interested in and wish I could figure out a way 917 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:25,280 Speaker 1: to talk about who are deeply, genuinely unlikable, like Donna 918 00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:32,600 Speaker 1: Rotuno or whatever. Harvey's lawyer, like, that woman is unlikable, 919 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,879 Speaker 1: So how do you tell her story? And by the way, 920 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,680 Speaker 1: I don't think you can. But but that's a character 921 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,440 Speaker 1: that is unlikable and really interesting to me that I 922 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,759 Speaker 1: just can't. I love a character that I'm like, how what, 923 00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,480 Speaker 1: how how did you wind out? How did you do this? 924 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,800 Speaker 1: And um? And you know she was on the Daily 925 00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:58,759 Speaker 1: with Megan Tooey and which she didn't have to go on, 926 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,400 Speaker 1: and she was kind of very game about it and 927 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,120 Speaker 1: said some of the worst things I've ever heard ever. 928 00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:08,640 Speaker 1: I was, it is crazy. I actually needed to this 929 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:10,640 Speaker 1: is going to sound too I needed to do a 930 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,880 Speaker 1: bunch of squats of course, like yell after I listened 931 00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,200 Speaker 1: to that, because there was so much rage in my 932 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,000 Speaker 1: body that a woman could speak about other women that 933 00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:26,680 Speaker 1: way that I needed to move and and and make 934 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,920 Speaker 1: noise to get the rage out of the center of 935 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,360 Speaker 1: my being. We should end on a better not I know. 936 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:35,560 Speaker 1: I was like, we've just gone on such a tangent 937 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,359 Speaker 1: and really where I was planning on going with them 938 00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,560 Speaker 1: to ask you how you chose to know when to 939 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:41,680 Speaker 1: end the show? So we can we can we can 940 00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:45,960 Speaker 1: steer the ship back. It does make me think when 941 00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,440 Speaker 1: there are so many stories and people do feel overwhelmed 942 00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,799 Speaker 1: by content, and you have, as you said, lightning in 943 00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,160 Speaker 1: a bottle, you actually have people's attention with a show 944 00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,760 Speaker 1: like that. How do you decide to quit while you're ahead? 945 00:54:57,840 --> 00:54:59,560 Speaker 1: How do you decide when it's time for that to 946 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,680 Speaker 1: be for? How do you give it up? Well, we 947 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:07,960 Speaker 1: never made work intentionally to be political, so I think, um, 948 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,360 Speaker 1: it was inherently political, but we were never trying to 949 00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,839 Speaker 1: like message anyone or do I mean when you said 950 00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:18,960 Speaker 1: to women, what exactly that's right? So so I think 951 00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,000 Speaker 1: I think it was long enough. I just we were 952 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,239 Speaker 1: We tried to end it at five, I think, and 953 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: then HBO was like how about six? But I think, um, 954 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, it was unsustainable. And also they were turning 955 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,400 Speaker 1: from girls into women, and it is a lot harder 956 00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:44,880 Speaker 1: to understand that behavior when you're older, you know. I think, um, 957 00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,680 Speaker 1: people behave stupidly all the time in their early twenties, 958 00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,400 Speaker 1: and a lot of people can relate to that, and uh, 959 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:52,440 Speaker 1: the idea that they were then going to be in 960 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:56,799 Speaker 1: like their mid to late thirties, being that entitled and 961 00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:01,239 Speaker 1: ridiculous didn't seem a healing. It seemed like you just 962 00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:05,279 Speaker 1: call it, you know, you gotta grow. Yeah, yeah, And 963 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,200 Speaker 1: it was just great to know where we were ending 964 00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,960 Speaker 1: so we could just go for it. And then how 965 00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:13,040 Speaker 1: how did you decide to jump into camping so quickly after? 966 00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:19,920 Speaker 1: I think honestly, we we found the content, we found 967 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,040 Speaker 1: the I P of the original limited and just thought, oh, 968 00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,719 Speaker 1: let's let's go, let's go, let's go. I think it 969 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,920 Speaker 1: was really hard for us to imagine taking time and 970 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,680 Speaker 1: not striking while the iron was hot, and um, so 971 00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,480 Speaker 1: I think, you know, if I had to do it 972 00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,560 Speaker 1: over again, I would have definitely spent more time developing it. 973 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,680 Speaker 1: And finally, yeah, absolutely, I think, um, it was just 974 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:47,560 Speaker 1: all too quick. And you know, like working with Jan 975 00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,240 Speaker 1: Garner is the pleasure of the universe. The other shoe 976 00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:56,160 Speaker 1: never drops. You cannot imagine what I give she is 977 00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,600 Speaker 1: it's I mean, seriously, like whatever you think, she's like 978 00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,680 Speaker 1: twin any times better than that. So I would never 979 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:04,799 Speaker 1: take back any of it. I met, I got to 980 00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,719 Speaker 1: work with people I loved all over the place, in 981 00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:13,319 Speaker 1: every department. Um, but I do think, um, you know 982 00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,600 Speaker 1: that it was it was not our best work, and 983 00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:18,160 Speaker 1: it was very fast and you know, you have a misbuyer, 984 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,080 Speaker 1: and I think I wish I had just slowed it 985 00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:25,200 Speaker 1: down a little bit. Mm hmm. And during all of this, 986 00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,640 Speaker 1: you're also working on the Lenning Letter. Yeah. Yeah, we're 987 00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,760 Speaker 1: also doing money. But we had I mean, in all honesty, 988 00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,640 Speaker 1: we had the greatest team in the world running it, 989 00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:39,480 Speaker 1: and so we had a lot of freedom to do 990 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,840 Speaker 1: our own work when we were working on Girls. People. 991 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:47,600 Speaker 1: Really we're great at that. Talk about like hiring people 992 00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:49,760 Speaker 1: you think are really good at their jobs and letting 993 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,200 Speaker 1: them do it. That's a very good example. What were 994 00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,760 Speaker 1: you looking for when you were hiring people, because essentially 995 00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,520 Speaker 1: you were you were running a like a media company. Yeah, 996 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,000 Speaker 1: I mean, so the for this person we hired was 997 00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,640 Speaker 1: Ben Cooley, who's my baby daddy and he not to 998 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,440 Speaker 1: be confused with my husband, and he he was the 999 00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,040 Speaker 1: one we just thought we were kind of going to 1000 00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:12,000 Speaker 1: do it like we would pay for it. It would 1001 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,480 Speaker 1: just be us collecting our friends narratives and putting them 1002 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:17,480 Speaker 1: out into the world, and we needed someone to like 1003 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:20,560 Speaker 1: put it in a format or things like that, and 1004 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,600 Speaker 1: then you'd spotlight the voices and you needed somebody to 1005 00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:25,840 Speaker 1: do the tech. Yeah, and not just the tech, but 1006 00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:29,360 Speaker 1: also I mean, yes, honestly, at that point it was 1007 00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,360 Speaker 1: sort of the tech, but also the sort of imagination 1008 00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,240 Speaker 1: of what it could be. And then we hired Jess Gross, 1009 00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,200 Speaker 1: who um was our editor in chief, who's a brilliant genius. 1010 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,400 Speaker 1: She's now doing parenting for The New York Times, which 1011 00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,280 Speaker 1: I think is really great. Even though it's mostly for 1012 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:47,960 Speaker 1: people with younger kids so far, I still think it's 1013 00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:52,120 Speaker 1: like the only place telling the truth about parenting in 1014 00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:56,040 Speaker 1: some ways. Wow, that's such high Yeah, and so and 1015 00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,400 Speaker 1: then she hired her staff and like Arcia, all these 1016 00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,640 Speaker 1: amazing women and Caitlin Green, and we get to meet 1017 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:04,680 Speaker 1: and work with Um. I mean I could list a 1018 00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,320 Speaker 1: hundred million people, but but he was the one who 1019 00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,520 Speaker 1: was like, I'm going to Conde Nast and herst to 1020 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,400 Speaker 1: get ad partners, Like it had never even occurred to 1021 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,080 Speaker 1: us that it would be that. So it sort of 1022 00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,800 Speaker 1: grew beyond our wildest dreams for a while. And then 1023 00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:26,280 Speaker 1: you know, you do hit kind of a top of newsletters. 1024 00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,240 Speaker 1: And also when we started, there weren't a lot of newsletters, 1025 00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,439 Speaker 1: and now there are one million newsletters, and there's only 1026 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,320 Speaker 1: so many AD dollars and things like that. But I'm 1027 00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,480 Speaker 1: still really really proud of that and so happy for 1028 00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:41,120 Speaker 1: the relationships we've made. And I mean even I forget, 1029 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,680 Speaker 1: like I'm working with um Io till it right, who 1030 00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,160 Speaker 1: I know you're talking to next week? He's like the best. 1031 00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,360 Speaker 1: And when I first heard his name, I was like, 1032 00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,160 Speaker 1: that's so familiar, and then I was like, oh, Lenny 1033 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:57,280 Speaker 1: Letter of course. Um so yeah, I feel really proud 1034 00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:01,160 Speaker 1: of what we did. That's so cool. Yeah, that's so 1035 01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:05,720 Speaker 1: so cool. And so we come to sort of now 1036 01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,640 Speaker 1: all of this content and creation and stuff that you've made, 1037 01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:13,200 Speaker 1: and you signed an overall with Fox with Fox twenty one, 1038 01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:16,320 Speaker 1: you know, so what sort of things are you working on? 1039 01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:18,400 Speaker 1: Is is there something that you haven't done yet that 1040 01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:22,000 Speaker 1: you're looking to do? Well? I you know, I was 1041 01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:26,880 Speaker 1: with HBO for eight years I think total, and they 1042 01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,040 Speaker 1: are like my family. I love them so much. And 1043 01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,880 Speaker 1: while I was there, like I woke up and was like, what, 1044 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:39,160 Speaker 1: like the bookseller makes content like nothing? You know, when 1045 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,320 Speaker 1: I went under, I feel like in Sino man, I'm like, 1046 01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,560 Speaker 1: what happened? Why are there four streaming? But you know, 1047 01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:48,360 Speaker 1: it's like really trying to catch up and so so 1048 01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:52,040 Speaker 1: now that I've emerged, I want to make more work, 1049 01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,440 Speaker 1: and I, you know, kind of decided this mutually, like 1050 01:00:55,600 --> 01:01:01,880 Speaker 1: with casey Um, that that I would start talking to 1051 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:06,400 Speaker 1: people about going places where I could have more platforms 1052 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,920 Speaker 1: to work on. And he was all in favor of 1053 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,600 Speaker 1: very generous with me about it. And when I met 1054 01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:16,000 Speaker 1: with Dana and Bert, I just really really liked them 1055 01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,560 Speaker 1: and found them to be um, really on the side 1056 01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:24,320 Speaker 1: of the creator and had really smart thoughts and good 1057 01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:29,880 Speaker 1: notes and um somehow lacking a cynicism even though like 1058 01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,840 Speaker 1: the it's a world gone mad so in the wild West, 1059 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,320 Speaker 1: and they don't have that, they still sort of believe 1060 01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:39,080 Speaker 1: in it. And so yeah, I mean that's I mean, 1061 01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,120 Speaker 1: the deal coast in November and then the whole town 1062 01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:45,320 Speaker 1: closed down, and so now we're just up and developing 1063 01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:49,040 Speaker 1: things and acquiring some I P and just getting moving. 1064 01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:51,840 Speaker 1: But it's been really exciting so far. And I don't 1065 01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,640 Speaker 1: like change, and so it's obviously huge change for me, 1066 01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,720 Speaker 1: but I've been enjoying it. And I have great women 1067 01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,600 Speaker 1: who work for me and support me, and I just 1068 01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:03,720 Speaker 1: want to do work that excites me. It's so boring 1069 01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:05,720 Speaker 1: and such a cliche to say, but you know, people 1070 01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:09,560 Speaker 1: almost never send me anything with male leads, and I'm like, 1071 01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,920 Speaker 1: I also like male leads. You know, it's it's UM. 1072 01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:15,800 Speaker 1: So it's interesting to see a lot of people send 1073 01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,520 Speaker 1: me work that is like girls but blah blah, and 1074 01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,320 Speaker 1: I'm like, well that I don't really want to do 1075 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,560 Speaker 1: again because I did it and I don't have that 1076 01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,400 Speaker 1: many ideas. So we're just waiting to see. But we're 1077 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,520 Speaker 1: doing some future stuff too, and it's UM. It's all 1078 01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,680 Speaker 1: really exciting and I feel really lucky to be where 1079 01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,360 Speaker 1: I am and I will definitely be patient in the 1080 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:43,920 Speaker 1: work too. That's awesome. Do you from your vantage point now, 1081 01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,000 Speaker 1: do you have advice for people who want to go 1082 01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,920 Speaker 1: into development or who want to be writers. You know, 1083 01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,520 Speaker 1: are there resources you like to point people to who 1084 01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,680 Speaker 1: are starting out? Well, the main thing I think that 1085 01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,200 Speaker 1: UM is important for writing that I think it's hard 1086 01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:05,160 Speaker 1: for people is UM to be less precious with your work. 1087 01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:09,440 Speaker 1: I think sometimes people write a script, they don't rewrite 1088 01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:11,360 Speaker 1: it enough, or they do and they have it in 1089 01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:13,600 Speaker 1: a place they like, and then they just keep sending 1090 01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:17,080 Speaker 1: it out year after year to get hired. And I 1091 01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:20,640 Speaker 1: think you just the minute you finished something writes something else, 1092 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:24,040 Speaker 1: just next, next, next. It almost never happens that those 1093 01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:28,360 Speaker 1: scripts really get produced and changed the world. Like Madman 1094 01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:32,160 Speaker 1: was one of those scripts. You know, he held onto it, HBO, 1095 01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,840 Speaker 1: passed on it, he got it somewhere else, he got 1096 01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:39,080 Speaker 1: it made. Um, But that's really really unusual, and I 1097 01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:42,160 Speaker 1: think that, um, you know, just keep writing and keep 1098 01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:46,240 Speaker 1: writing and draft and draft and draft, and don't don't 1099 01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:48,920 Speaker 1: be too precious with your work because the whole thing 1100 01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,880 Speaker 1: of television writing is writing and rewriting and rewriting and 1101 01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:53,600 Speaker 1: re writing. And also, I don't want to see the 1102 01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,960 Speaker 1: same spec scripts from people, you know, I don't want 1103 01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,480 Speaker 1: someone to have the same play three years in a row, 1104 01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,320 Speaker 1: like I'll read that. But I also want to know 1105 01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:05,160 Speaker 1: that you can write something and write it quickly. That's 1106 01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,760 Speaker 1: really good advice. So, as you know, the show is 1107 01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,120 Speaker 1: called work in progress, I love to ask everyone who 1108 01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:14,800 Speaker 1: sits across from me, what comes to mind when you 1109 01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:16,720 Speaker 1: hear the phrase what feels like a work in progress 1110 01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:19,000 Speaker 1: in your life right now? I mean everything? I think 1111 01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:21,560 Speaker 1: that's like the glory of that title is that aren't 1112 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:25,280 Speaker 1: we all every day works in progress? So the day 1113 01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,120 Speaker 1: we think we're done is just probably the day we 1114 01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:33,520 Speaker 1: like dissolve and die or shrivel up, because everyone I 1115 01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:37,960 Speaker 1: know and love and respect thinks of themselves as a 1116 01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:41,120 Speaker 1: work in progress. And that's sort of the exciting part 1117 01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:46,680 Speaker 1: about life. I don't know you're here. You have like 1118 01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:50,160 Speaker 1: twenty five people that answered that way. No, everyone has 1119 01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:53,280 Speaker 1: a different answer, but a lot of people do in 1120 01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,520 Speaker 1: their own way talk about how they do feel like 1121 01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:58,480 Speaker 1: it's everything. And I like that because I do so 1122 01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:02,640 Speaker 1: it makes me feel less alone exactly, less crazy, you know, 1123 01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:07,000 Speaker 1: overwhelmed or whatever attitude you plug in here. Um, thank you, 1124 01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:13,840 Speaker 1: thank you. This show is executive produced by me, Sophia 1125 01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,600 Speaker 1: Bush and sim Sarna. Our associate producer is Kate Linley. 1126 01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:21,440 Speaker 1: Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written 1127 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,640 Speaker 1: by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show 1128 01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:28,960 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Brilliant Anatomy m