1 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold case murders in 3 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: an effort to raise public awareness invite witnesses to come 4 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 2: forward and present evidence that could potentially be further investigated 5 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: by law enforcement. While we value insights from family and 6 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: community members, their statements should not be considered evidence and 7 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: point to the challenges of verifying facts inherent in cold cases. 8 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: We remind listeners that everyone has presumed innocent until proven 9 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 2: guilty in a court of law. Nothing in the podcast 10 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: is intended to state or imply that anyone who has 11 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: not been convicted of a crime is guilty of any wrongdoing. 12 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. 13 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: On May eleventh, nineteen ninety two, twenty year old newlywed 14 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: Jennifer Judd was viciously attacked and murdered at home on 15 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: North Park Avenue in Baxter Springs, Kansas at two point 16 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: thirty that day, Jennifer's husband of nine days, Justin Jed, 17 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: came home from work and found his wife's body in 18 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: the kitchen. Thirty three years later, Jennifer's murder is still unsolved, 19 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: so we've been going back over the timeline and wondering 20 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: if there was something that police missed. As we said 21 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: last week, there were several things that were unusual going 22 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: on in the day Jennifer was murdered, including the fact 23 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: that at around eleven forty five that day, Justin's friend 24 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: Chuck Chance, showed up at Justin's work. Chuck hung out 25 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: with Justin for a couple of hours and was with 26 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: him when he shift ended at two thirty. Then they 27 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: drove back to Justin and Jennifer's apartment. When Justin got home, 28 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: he noticed that Jennifer's car was in the driveway, and 29 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: when he and Chuck got to the door, it was unlocked. 30 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: Once they got inside, Justin found a horrific sight. Jennifer 31 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: was lying on the kitchen floor in a pool of blood. 32 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: Her killer had attacked her and stabbed her multiple times 33 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: with so much for that the knife broke off in 34 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: her body, and the killer went back for a second knife. 35 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: Last week, we talked about how over the years police 36 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: considered several suspects, but so far no one has been 37 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: arrested or charged. Jennifer's case, however, does have ties to 38 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: a man who claimed to have killed over twelve women 39 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: around the country and was charming enough to be nicknamed 40 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: the redneck Ted Bundy, and this serial killer wasn't just 41 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: a random stranger. He actually knew Justin Judd. He was 42 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: someone who lived in Baxter Springs, was Justin's neighbor, and 43 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: when on a killing spree shortly after Jennifer was murdered. 44 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past eight years of making 45 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: my true crime podcast, Helen Gone, I've learned that there's 46 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: no such thing as a small town where murder never happens. 47 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: I've received hundreds of messages from people all around the 48 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: country asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, 49 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: their families, and their communities. If you have a case 50 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: you'd like me and my team to look into, you 51 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder 52 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: Line at six seven eight seven four four, six one 53 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: four or five. That's six seven eight seven four four, six, 54 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: one four or five, or you can send us a 55 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: message on Instagram at Helen Gonepod. This is Helen Gone 56 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 1: Murder Line. We talked to Justin and he told us 57 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: last week that, according to what he had been told 58 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: by police, law enforcement considered his friend shut Chance a suspect, 59 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: but Justin still has questions about Chuck's story. Justin claims 60 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: that back when they first talked to police, he believed 61 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: he caught Chuck in an inconsistency. 62 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, he got cleared by DNA, but still, in my mind, 63 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 3: the way he acted that day and stuff, And I mean, 64 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: who goes to somebody to work and sits there has 65 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 3: a shift with them, you know, whether it worked, I 66 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 3: mean it, and he'd never done that before, and he 67 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 3: just acted really strange that day, and still in my 68 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 3: mind there's still something there. We went to the police 69 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 3: station and we both wrote down, you know, they want 70 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: to detail everything that happened that day, from what you 71 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 3: had for breakfast, you know, every little detail you could 72 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 3: remember of your day. And I wrote that down, you know, 73 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 3: and he'd done all his stuff down, and there was 74 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 3: a discrepancy. He told me at work that he went 75 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: to a job interview in Pittsburgh, which is a few 76 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 3: miles away, and then he went to his sister's house, 77 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 3: which lived out by my parents outside of Quapas, and 78 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: changed clothes and then come to my work. Well, he 79 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 3: calls me and he says, why did you tell the 80 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 3: KBI that I went to my sisters and changed clothes 81 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 3: and I said, well, because you told me you went 82 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 3: to your sister's and changed clothes, doesn't No, I didn't. 83 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 3: And right then, that's whenever I thought, because the KBI 84 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 3: was already trying to convince me that you know, this 85 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 3: is the guy that had done it. And right then 86 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: I just told him, I said you better get a 87 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 3: lawyer and hung the phone up. And what she did, 88 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 3: and he pled the fifth and then come to find 89 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 3: out he'd actually went to the bank in Commers and 90 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: went to his house and Commers and stuff. In my mind, 91 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 3: the reason why he wanted to recant on telling me 92 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 3: that he went to his sisters is because his sister 93 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 3: had a babysitter there and he didn't actually go to 94 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 3: his sisters, So you know, he knew they was going 95 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 3: to be asked a question, so he tried to racing 96 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 3: that part of the story. So his stories just didn't 97 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 3: add up on what he done that day. 98 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: Again, Chuck has never been arrested or charged in connection 99 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: with Jennifer's murder. All of this is just Justin's opinion. 100 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: Justin also questioned another element of Chuck's story, the one 101 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: that Chuck told police about going to the gym right 102 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: after he left his house that morning at around seven am. 103 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: He told police he had used the whirlpool and showered, 104 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: then headed to Justin and Jennifer's house and then to 105 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: Justin's work. Because Chuck told police he and Justin had 106 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: talked about going to the gym that afternoon after they 107 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: left Justin's work and stopped to check on Jennifer. Justin 108 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: said they did talk about going to the gym that afternoon, 109 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: but he questioned why Chuck would have stopped at the 110 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: gym twice that day. He said, twice a day workouts 111 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: were not something that Chuck did normally, so Justin questioned 112 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: that part of the story. 113 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 3: And plus he had went and worked out that morning, 114 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 3: and his excuse stopping by the house was to say 115 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 3: that he would come by to see if I wanted 116 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 3: to work out, And in nineteen ninety two, he didn't 117 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 3: work out twice a day. That wouldn't a think was 118 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 3: every other day work out? So did that porgonomic sense? 119 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: Either was Jennifer's killer someone who knew her and killed 120 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: her in a rage that was personal or could this 121 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: have been a stranger, maybe someone who was obsessed with Jennifer. 122 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: Jennifer's body showed no signs of sexual assault. But some 123 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: studies do show a link between overkill meaning a high 124 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: number of stab wounds, and sexual motives, but Jennifer's murder 125 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: didn't seem to fit the textbook definition of those criteria. 126 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: Most studies mentioned twenty five or more stab winds and 127 00:08:32,680 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: other factors like victims being positioned in sexual poses after death. 128 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: We have not seen crime scene photos, so we don't 129 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: know for sure if Jennifer's body was moved, but just 130 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: And did mention it seemed to him as though her 131 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: shirt might have been pulled over her stab wounds, he believed, 132 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: maybe in an attempt to disguise them, or maybe just 133 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: because her body was moved slightly which pulled the shirt up. 134 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: But from what Justin described and what has been publicized 135 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: about the crime scene, Jennifer's body did not appear to 136 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: be overtly sexually staged. There was physical evidence at the 137 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: crime scene, including fingerprints on the knife piece that was 138 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: sticking out of Jennifer's back, but law enforcement has never 139 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: publicly revealed exactly what kind of testing was done on 140 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: that murder weapon. Over the years, there have been several 141 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: people named as possible suspects by police. One was a 142 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: man named Jeremy Jones. Jeremy Jones was born on April twelfth, 143 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. In nineteen ninety, he was a teenager 144 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: and assaulted a high school classmate of his. That classmate's 145 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: mother actually came to the young man's defense, and then 146 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: Jeremy turned on the mom and assaulted her as well. 147 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: But Jeremy could turn on the charm. Charges in that 148 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: assault were eventually dropped, and in high school, apparently he 149 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: was a ladies man who hooked up with a lot 150 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: of women. In nineteen ninety five, Jeremy was arrested for 151 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: his first rape, but he paid his bill and was released. 152 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety six, Jeremy was arrested in Oklahoma. This 153 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: time he was charged with rape and possession of methamphetamy. 154 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: He was convicted of the drug charges and sentenced to 155 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: two years in prison. Jeremy mainly worked odd jobs in 156 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: construction for many years. He traveled around and did not 157 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: have a fixed address. After being paroled in nineteen ninety seven, 158 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: he was re arrested in connection with the rapes. He 159 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: ended up pleading guilty to assault and sexual harassment and 160 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: was put on probation for five years. In two thousand, 161 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: a warrant was issued for his arrest. He became a 162 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: suspect in two more rapes. Jeremy moved to Joplin, Missouri, 163 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: and met a woman whose son was in prison. The 164 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: son's name was John Paul Chapman, so Jeremy ended up 165 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: using his charm to convince John Paul Chapman's mother to 166 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: sell him her son's identity for fifty dollars. From that 167 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: moment on, Jeremy Jones became John Paul Chapman. In October 168 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: of two thousand and three, Jeremy was arrested in Georgia. 169 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: He was charged with indecent exposure and disorderly conduct when 170 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: he was arrested, even though since two thousand he was 171 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: technically a wanted man and there were warrants out on him. 172 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: When law enforcement finger printed Jeremy, and when his prints 173 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: were run through the FBI's Integrated Automatic Fingerprint Identification System, 174 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: law enforcement got a match, but not to his real name, 175 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: Jeremy Jones. Instead, police got a hit to his alias, 176 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: John Paul Chapman. So police never figured out that this 177 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: guy's real name was Jeremy Jones, or that he was 178 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: wanted in Oklahoma on a rape charge. Instead, he was 179 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: released the next year. In two thousand and four, Jeremy 180 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: was arrested again, this time charged with criminal trespassing, but 181 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: once again that finger printing system failed. Once again, Jeremy 182 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: was released. This happened two more times. He would be 183 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: arrested and charged and released after the finger printing system 184 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: failed to find a match. This meant that Jeremy Jones 185 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: was a free man, free to rape and free to kill. 186 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: And it wasn't long before he found his next victim. 187 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: On September eighteenth, two thousand and four, Hurricane Ivan was 188 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: hitting Mobile, Alabama hard. In that chaos, forty four year 189 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: old Lisa Marie Nichols was fatally shot in her home 190 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: in Turnerville, Alabama. Her killers set her body on fire 191 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: in her bathroom. The fire spread and burned down her house. 192 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: Lisa's mutilated body was found among the smoldering remains of 193 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: her home. After his arrest in two thousand and four, 194 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: police discover Jeremy Jones had shown up at the home 195 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: of a local couple who lived near Lisa. He was 196 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: pretending to be John Paul Chapman. The couple believed him 197 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: and they let him do some construction work. At some point, 198 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: Lisa Nichols, who was a neighbor, showed up at their house. 199 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: Jeremy waited until everyone had left, then he took a 200 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: six pack of beer to Lisa's house, where he broke 201 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: in and raped her. Police found a fingerprint on a 202 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: beer can at the crime scene. When they ran it, 203 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: it was a match for John Paul Chapman, but when 204 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: they sent the information on John Paul Chapman to Missouri, 205 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: the authorities in Missouri said the real John Paul Chapman 206 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: was behind bars there. So authorities tracked down John Paul 207 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: Chapman's last known address. They talked to his mother. That's 208 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: when they realized that John Paul Chapman they were looking 209 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: for was actually someone else, and the real John Paul 210 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: Chapman's mother gave law enforcement the name of the man 211 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: who'd bought her son's id for fifty dollars, Jeremy Brian Jones. 212 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: Police arrested Jeremy a few days after Lisa's remains were found. 213 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: At first, he denied killing Lisa, but eventually he confessed 214 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: to her rape and murder. But that was just the beginning. 215 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: Jeremy Jones eventually confessed to more than a dozen murders 216 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: across several states, and one of them was Jennifer Judd. 217 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: In fact, Jeremy said Jennifer Judd was his first killed. 218 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: After getting arrested for the murder of Lisa Nichols, Jeremy 219 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: ended up admitting to thirteen murders in six states. He 220 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: told police he had killed even more people, he said 221 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: as other victims were sex workers, mainly concentrated in the 222 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: areas of Atlanta, Georgia, and Mobile, Alabama. Jeremy said that 223 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: he had murdered Jennifer Judd in nineteen ninety two. But 224 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: was that actually true. Was Jeremy Jones credible or did 225 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: he just confess as he later claimed, to get better 226 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: conditions in prison, or maybe because he had nothing to 227 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: lose or to gain status inside prison, Jeremy was telling 228 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: the truth about at least some of his crimes. There 229 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: were three murders the police were able to link him 230 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: to definitively. One of his victims was a sixteen year 231 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: old named Amanda Greenwell. She went missing on March twelve, 232 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: two thousand and four. Her remains were found in Douglasville, Georgia, 233 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: a few weeks later. Amanda had been stabbed multiple times 234 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: and strangled. Jeremy's girlfriend, Vicky Freeman, provided some corroborating evidence. 235 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: When police talked to Vicki, she told them that on 236 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: the day Amanda Greenwell vanished, Jeremy had come home from 237 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: doing drugs for days, and when he came home, he 238 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: had unexplained scratches on him. Police were all also able 239 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: to conclusively link Jeremy to the brutal murder of Catherine Collins. 240 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: Catherine's body was found in February of two thousand and 241 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: four in New Orleans. Jeremy said he met Catherine Collins 242 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: in the French Quarter when he went to New Orleans 243 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: for Marty Grass. He said he ended up doing methamphetamine 244 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: during a week long binge. He claimed he and Catherine 245 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: went to an abandoned house to do drugs and have sex, 246 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: but he said after she took her clothes off, he 247 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: refused to pay her. He said after that they got 248 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: into an argument and that Catherine tried to run away, 249 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: but he said he tackled her to the ground while 250 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: she was naked and stabbed her multiple times. He told police, 251 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: quote the bitch deserved it end quote. Jeremy said he 252 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: stabbed Catherine Collins in the eye, strangled her, and mutilated 253 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: her vagina. After examining Catherine's autopsy report and comparing her 254 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: injuries to the ones Jeremy described, police decided his story 255 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: matched her graphic and horrific injuries, and so they charged 256 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: him with Catherine's murder. Police took Jeremy's confessions of meth 257 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: fuel murder seriously. They believe there could be more victims 258 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: out there. They searched Jeremy's storage unit in two thousand 259 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: and four. They found photographs of several different women. They 260 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: made these photos public and asked that anyone who knew 261 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: who these women were to come forward. So the women did. 262 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: One was one of Jeremy's family members, others just some 263 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: random women he knew. Eventually, all of the women were 264 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: identified from those photos. They were all confirmed as being 265 00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: alive and safe. One of Jeremy's alleged victims was Tina Mayberry. 266 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: Tina was stabbed to death after attending a Halloween party 267 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: in Douglasville, Georgia. She was at a place called Gibson's Restaurant. 268 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: In two thousand and two, She went outside and came 269 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: back inside the bar covered in blood. This attack happened 270 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: very quickly. She was rushed to the hospital but lay 271 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: or died of her stab wounds. Like in Jennifer's case, 272 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: there was no robbery and no obvious signs of rape 273 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: or sexual assault. However, police were unable to link Jeremy 274 00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: to that killing, but they did find out that he 275 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: had been in that area. Jeremy Jones was a regular 276 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: at Gibson's during that time period, so some of his 277 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: confessions are unclear, and in other cases he appeared to 278 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: be stretching the truth or lying outright, like the unsolved 279 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: kidnapping and murder of sixteen year old Laura Bible and 280 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: Ashley Freeman, along with Ashley's parents, Kathy and Danny Freeman 281 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: in Welch, Oklahoma. Laura and Ashley were two friends who 282 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 1: were hanging out at Ashley's house to celebrate her sixteenth 283 00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: birthday on December twenty ninth, nineteen ninety nine. Early the 284 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: next morning, on December thirtieth, law enforcement responded to reports 285 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: of a fire at the house. Once the blaze was extinguished, 286 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: they found the bodies of Ashley's parents, Danny and Kathy 287 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: inside the home. Both of them had been fatally shot 288 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: before the home was set on fire. Laura and Ashley 289 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: were gone. No trace of them was ever found. During 290 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: that two thousand and four confession, Jeremy claimed he had 291 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: killed the two teens and dumped their bodies in a 292 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: mind shaft that mine was a real place, but when 293 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 1: police searched in the spot where Jeremy claimed he dumped 294 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: the remains, they found no trace of the teen's bodies. Later, 295 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: Jeremy recanted these confessions, but police couldn't figure out how 296 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: even though he lied about the body locations, how Jeremy 297 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: seemed to have details about that crime scene, details police 298 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: say had not been made public at that time. In 299 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, a local drug dealer named Ronnie Dean Busick 300 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: was arrested in charge with four counts of first degree 301 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: murder in connection with Ashley and Laura's murders. Witnesses told 302 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: police that Ronnie and two other men, Warren Philip Welch 303 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: the second and David Pennington, who were both dead at 304 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: the time of Ronnie's arrest, bragged about holding the girl's 305 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: captive and eventually raping and murdering the teens and taking 306 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: photographs of them. The torture and the fate that these 307 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: young women suffered was horrific, but there was no evidence 308 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: that Jeremy Jones was involved in any way. Jeremy also 309 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: claimed he killed Patrese Andres, a mother who worked at 310 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: a hairdressing salon in Coming, Georgia on April fifteenth, two 311 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: thousand and four. Patrese was having a normal day at work, 312 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: and then sometime during lunch, in what police later said 313 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: was only a thirteen minute window of time, she vanished 314 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: without a trace. Patrese's lunch was still there at the 315 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: salon Uneaten, her car was parked outside in the parking lot. 316 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: She was just gone. Jeremy told investigators that he dumped 317 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: her body into a creek, but when police looked in 318 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: the area where Jared described disposing of her remains, they 319 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: found nothing. He blamed his wrong information on the fact 320 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: that he had been on meth at the time. Jeremy 321 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 1: blamed a lot of his wrong information on the fact 322 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: that he was doing a lot of drugs. That he 323 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: was on meth at the time of a lot of 324 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: the killings. He said because of that drug use, his 325 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: memory was faulty. Later, though, on December six, two thousand 326 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 1: and five, Patrese's remains were found behind Lebanon Baptist Church 327 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: in Dawson County. Now, this was sixty to seventy miles 328 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: from where Jeremy Jones claimed he had dumped Patrese. Patrese's case, 329 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: by the way, is still unsolved, so after they realized 330 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: Jeremy had given them wrong information, police started doubting Jeremy's 331 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: involvement in the other murders he was claiming. But Jeremy 332 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: had been telling the truth about the murders of Lisa, 333 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: Catherine and Amanda, like the unsolved murder of Tina Mayberry, 334 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: which Jeremy claimed to have committed, though police were never 335 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: able to conclud lusively link him to that killing. Jeremy 336 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: was in proximity of the place where Justin and Jennifer lived, 337 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: Baxter Springs, and it turned out he also knew Justin 338 00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: Judd personally. It's been reported that Jeremy was in the 339 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: Baxter Springs area in nineteen ninety two, but that he 340 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: broke up with his girlfriend in late nineteen ninety two 341 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: and left the area. But there have also been a 342 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: lot of rumors online about Jeremy's connection to Justin Judd 343 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: that aren't true that they were friends in high school. 344 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: For example, Justin says he never met Jeremy until years 345 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: later in the mid nineties after Jennifer's murder. At the time, 346 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: Justin was married. He said Jeremy moved next door to 347 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: him with his girlfriend at the time. Justin claim they 348 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: never even had a real conversation, though he said he 349 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: did hear Jeremy and his girlfriend getting into loud arguments. 350 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: Jeremy Jones had claimed that he and Justin hung out 351 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: together and said that never happened. Jeremy Jones also claimed 352 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: that at one point he worked with Chuck Chance. We 353 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: have no idea if that's true or not. Again, Jeremy 354 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: Jones lied a lot, so we have to take everything 355 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: he said with a massive grain of salt. Was Jeremy 356 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: Jones lying or telling the truth about Jennifer Judd. That's 357 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: what Jennifer's family was trying to figure out after he confessed. 358 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: Some of them wondered if Jeremy could have been the 359 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: stalker who was supposedly frightening Jennifer. Remember, Jennifer's father said 360 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: that Jennifer thought someone might have been following her to work, 361 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: and later that someone had pounded on the door and 362 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: scared her. Jeremy Jones claimed that he stalked Jennifer for 363 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: several days before he showed up to her apartment and 364 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: fatally stabbed her. According to what Jennifer's father said in 365 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: the press, Jennifer told someone at her apartment complex that 366 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: she had gotten freaked out when a few days before 367 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: the murder, someone was pounding on the front door hard. 368 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: She believed they were trying to get inside, so she 369 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: actually ended up hiding behind the sofa and the person 370 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: eventually went away. Could Jeremy Jones have been the person 371 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: who knocked on Jennifer's door that day. Jeremy told police 372 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: that he met Jennifer at a party. He claimed they 373 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: started seeing each other romantically and that they were having 374 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: an affair at the time of the murder. Now, Jennifer's 375 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: family says these claims are ridiculous. There's no evidence this 376 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: ever happened. In fact, there is zero evidence that Jeremy 377 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: ever met Jennifer at all. Jeremy claimed the reason for 378 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: killing Jennifer was because she did not return his feelings 379 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: he told police he murdered her due to unrequited love. 380 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: Could Jeremy have been lying about his relationship with Jennifer 381 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: but telling the truth about killing her. There were some 382 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: details that did not seem to match. One thing that 383 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: didn't match was that police asked Jeremy Jones to describe 384 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: what Jennifer's duplex looked like where her body was. He 385 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: reportedly drew a sketch for investigators. Now, according to media reports, 386 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: the drawing of the home he did was different than 387 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: the reality of the layout of her home, But Jennifer's 388 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: duplex looked different in nineteen ninety two than it did 389 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: in two thousand and five when Jeremy drew the sketch 390 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: for detectives. The investigator claimed that Jennifer's home did look 391 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: more like his drawing back in nineteen ninety two. Jeremy 392 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: also apparently got the type of soda that had been 393 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: at the crime scene wrong. It was a minute may, 394 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: he called it something else. There were also some other 395 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: details that didn't quite match. Still, Alabama authorities who took 396 00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: Jeremy's confession apparently took him seriously enough to tell the 397 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: police in Kansas about it, and the police last in 398 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: Kansas did interview Jeremy Jones in two thousand and five. 399 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: The fingerprinting mistake that had set Jeremy free and allowed 400 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: him to kill three women made national news. The fact 401 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: that a killer who had confessed to multiple murders had 402 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: not been caught because of the computer glitch understandably outraged 403 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people, and journalists and people in general 404 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: were rightfully asking the question, how in the world was 405 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: this allowed to happen. The Georgia Bureau of Investigations Assistant 406 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: Deputy Director Terry Gibbons told reporters that it was quote 407 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: very infrequent for the Bureau to have this type of 408 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: fingerprinting air. But what exactly does very infrequent mean? Because 409 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: the FBI also made some statements about the mistake, They 410 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: claimed they were conducting an official review they were going 411 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: to figure out exactly how this happened, But they haven't 412 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: really given any more details on whether they did the 413 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: review and what it involved. So how often does the 414 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: system make mistakes? FBI's Supervisory Special Agent Joe Parris was 415 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: quoted as saying the finger printing system IAFIS makes fifty 416 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: thousand fingerprint comparisons a day. He claimed that it had 417 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 1: a ninety five percent accuracy rate. That sounds good, but 418 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: ninety five percent of fifty thousand would be about forty 419 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: seven thousand, five hundred, which means around two thousand, five 420 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: hundred could be wrong, which to me is actually kind 421 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: of scary to think about, because that could be a 422 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: significant number of people if they rely solely on the 423 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: fingerprinting system and don't have another way to verify this information, 424 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: and these mistakes can have very serious consequences. In Jeremy's case, 425 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: it was literally a matter of life and death for 426 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: his victims. Once Jeremy heard about the fingerprinting mistake, the 427 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: case took kind of a wild twist because he started 428 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: denying the confessions that he had given. At that point, 429 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: he probably realized if he had not told police about 430 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: his other killings, he would only be facing rape charges 431 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma. He would not be dealing with capital murder 432 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: charges that could get in put to death. So Jeremy 433 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: Jones now said he was not a serial killer. He 434 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: made statements to the media saying, quote, I ain't no 435 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy end quote. It was hard to tell fact 436 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: from fiction with Jeremy because sometimes his stories were a 437 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: mixture of lies and the truth. For example, he admitted 438 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: to a WP and My news journalist that he had 439 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: been inside Lisa's house, but he said he didn't kill her. 440 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: He was just there when she happened to overdose on drugs. 441 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: Jeremy told the journalists, quote, was I there when she died? Yeah, 442 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: I was there when she died. She overdosed on drugs. 443 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: ME and her sat there and talked about drugs. End quote. 444 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: Then the journalist asked Jeremy, if that was true, how 445 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: she got three bullet holes in her head and how 446 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: she was set on fire. Jeremy said he had no idea. 447 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: According to the detectives who interviewed him, Jeremy could be 448 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: intelligent and charming and yet at the same time completely 449 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: devoid of any kind of remorse. One detective told The 450 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: Times Picking You that Jeremy's confession was the most frightening 451 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: he had heard ever during his career. He said that, 452 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: in his opinion, Jeremy was reliving and getting excited about 453 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: the murders when he talked to law enforcement. But like 454 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: a lot of killers, Jeremy lied a lot. According to 455 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: medi reports, when it came to Jennifer Jud's case, police 456 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: did not believe they had sufficient credible evidence to charge 457 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: Jeremy with anything. Also, Jeremy is a convicted rapist, and 458 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: unlike the rest of Jeremy's known victims, Jennifer Judd showed 459 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: no sign of sexual assault. So Jeremy seemed to have 460 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: been dropped as a suspect in Jennifer's case. But some 461 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: people still believed that he could have been telling the 462 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: truth about killing Jennifer, and that there could be other 463 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: reasons why law enforcement might not be super motivated to 464 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: find Jeremy's other victims. And it's true that every time 465 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: another victim is mentioned, presumably that does focus the spotlight 466 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: again on the fingerprinting mistakes and their catastrophic consequences. Jennifer's 467 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: family hopes DNA could help provide answers. According to the 468 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: Who Killed Jennifer Judd Podcast, the KBI did DNA test 469 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: back in twenty fourteen and came up with a profile 470 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: of a suspect. Sarah Kalin claims this profile was not 471 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: a match to Chuck Chance. Law enforcement have not confirmed 472 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: or denied this. There's also been no word on whether 473 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: or not the DNA on the knife was ever entered 474 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: into codis. This should have meant that it would be 475 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: compared to Jeremy Jones's DNA. It would seem as though 476 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: it should have been given the fact that he confessed 477 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: and police would have had the correct DNA the system 478 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: by then, But honestly, because of the mix up, it's 479 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: really hard to know for sure what was done, especially 480 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: when police aren't confirming anything. I also wonder why, if 481 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: they have a profile of the suspect, if they were 482 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: able to use the DNA from the knife to build 483 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: that profile, why they have not made it public so 484 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: that the public could help catch the killer. If this 485 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: case has taught us anything, it's not to take information 486 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: for granted until it's absolutely confirmed. Jeremy Jones is currently 487 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: on death row with the Holman Correctional Facility in Atmore, Alabama. 488 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: His case is currently going through the state appeals process, 489 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: which will be followed by the federal appeals process. But 490 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: whatever happens, he has no possibility of parole, and so 491 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: one way or another, barring some kind of legal miracle, 492 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: Jeremy Jones will die behind bars. Justin says that to 493 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: this day he goes back and forth about whether or 494 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: not Jennifer knew her killer, but her behavior leading up 495 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: to the murder makes him wonder if she was worried 496 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: about something or someone that she wasn't sharing with him. 497 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: He still wonders if someone close to him, maybe even 498 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: someone still living in the community, could have knocked on 499 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: his and Jennifer's door that day, and he hopes that 500 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: someday someone will come forward. 501 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 3: And back then a twenty year old kid, I was just, 502 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 3: you know, thinking that it was the wedding and stuff 503 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 3: that she was. She was acting quite a bit different 504 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 3: a few weeks up to the wedding. I probably was too. 505 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 3: You know, we have been married before, so it's a 506 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 3: lot of big changes in our life. 507 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: I wonder if it was, you know, something botheringer someone 508 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: bothering her. 509 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 3: And that's another reason why I it always goes back 510 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 3: to Chuck or a friend, because she didn't want to 511 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 3: create conflict between me and a friend or something, you know. 512 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, The reason why she didn't 513 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 3: mention it. You think to me about any of that. 514 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: I'm Katherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. Helen 515 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: Gone Murder Line is a production of School of Humans 516 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated by me Catherine 517 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: Townsend and produced by Etily's Perez Special thanks to Amy 518 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: Tubbs for her research assistance and James Wheaton for legal review. 519 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: Noah camer mixed and scored this episode. Our theme song 520 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: is by Ben Salek. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, 521 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: and LC Crowley. 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