WEBVTT - Untangled: Suffering & The 8-Fold Path with Koshin Paley Ellison 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.760 The first nobilities that there is suffering, and I remember 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:10.959 as a young kid feeling so grateful for someone acknowledging 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.760 that things are hard, that they're suffering in life, that 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.840 it's real because I grew up in a space where 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.320 most people were telling me what I was thinking was 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:27.880 happening wasn't happening, and everything was just fine, and it 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:28.680 wasn't fine. 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:32.800 This is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:37.159 Megan Divine. This week, one of my favorite people on 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:41.479 the planet returns to the show, Zen teacher Koshin Paley 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.720 Ellison is here to talk about his book Untangled and 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.040 how the real work of spiritual practice is turning to 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:52.960 face what hurts, not trying to rise above it. There 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:57.280 is no spiritual bypassing allowed here, friends, ever, but certainly 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:01.200 not in this episode. Stay tuned and I will be 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:11.280 right back after this first break. Before we get started, 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:15.919 two quick notes. One, this episode is an encore performance. 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:18.679 I am on break working on a giant new project, 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:21.560 so we're releasing a mix of our favorite episodes from 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:24.640 the first three seasons of the show. Some of these 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.440 conversations you might have missed in their original seasons, and 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:31.640 some shows just truly deserve multiple listens so that you 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:35.800 capture all of the goodness. Second note, while we cover 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:38.839 a lot of emotional relational territory in our time here together, 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.600 this show is not a substitute for skilled support, but 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.399 a licensemental health provider or for professional supervision related to 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.720 your work. Take what you learn here, take your thoughts 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.240 and your reflections out into your world and. 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:51.920 Talk about it. 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.040 Hey, today's guest is an old friend of mine, an 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.400 old friend from way back in season one of the podcast. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.800 He's back because he's got a new book out called 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:09.760 Untangled Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion. 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:15.320 But I'll tell you the truth, a little secret. I 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.000 have him back on the show because his presence is 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.960 like medicine for me personally, his words, his way of 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.800 looking at the world, and his silliness, especially his silliness. 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.480 I always feel somehow both calm and joyful after spending 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:33.200 time with him, even when we talk about difficult or 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:38.360 painful things. Kohin Paley Ellison is an author, a zen teacher, 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.120 and a Jungian psychotherapist who has devoted his life to 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:45.480 the study and application of psychotherapy and Buddhism. Koshin co 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:47.920 founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care with 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:52.400 his husband Shodo. Robert Campbell, and Koshin's newest book is Untangled, 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.440 Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion. As 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.760 I mentioned earlier, now, it is not important that you 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.280 know what the Eightfold Path is or what the foreign 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:04.720 Noble Truths are in order to get something beautiful and 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:09.120 useful out of today's episode. But in a very brief nutshell, 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.359 in case you want to know, think of the four 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.800 Noble truths like a concise description of the human condition. 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:19.799 Suffering exists, it has a cause, it has an end, 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:22.520 and there is a path or a practice that will 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:26.120 help you find the end to suffering. That path is 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.200 called the Middle Way. Now side note here, if you 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:29.960 have read my book It's okay that you're not okay, 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.480 you might remember that there is a short little section 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:34.399 on the Teachings of the Buddha in my book where 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:36.000 I talk about the middle Way. So if you're like, 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:40.640 I've heard this before, that might be it. The middle 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.120 Way introduces us to the noble Eightfold Path, which is 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:48.600 what helps us find the cessation of suffering. It is 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:52.560 not an eight step plan to pretending that things don't suck. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:55.680 The point of practice, and the point of Koshin's new 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.360 book is that if you can find your own roots, 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:02.360 your own center inside difficult times, you can tend to 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:04.360 your pain in ways that make it a lot less 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:09.880 likely your pain will fester and cause more harm aka suffering. 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.560 That's going to all make a lot more sense when 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.640 you listen to this week's show, So for now, just 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:18.880 let that part wash over you. Now, a couple of 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.320 content notes for today's episode. The real power of Koshin's 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:27.400 work is that it's rooted in intense pain and suffering. 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.279 He really knows intimately and personally the power of the 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.240 tools he teaches. You'll hear him tell a very intense 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.320 story of anti semitism in his childhood and how that 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.800 experience affects him to this day. He does that so 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:43.680 that he can talk about the ways that Buddhism has 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.719 helped him engage with what happened to him in ways 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:51.520 that make that memory easier to endure. So one content note, 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.720 there is a graphic description of antisemitism in this episode, 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.240 and two a reminder that anti Semitism is not a 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:02.520 thing of the distant past. It is here, now, present 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.640 and growing. I shall hear Koshins say in this episode, 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:12.080 all violence has suffering at its root. All right, that's 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:14.359 enough prep out of me. I hope you find so 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.000 much to carry with you in this episode. Friends, Koshin's 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:21.160 joy shines through everything he does, and I'm so happy 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:26.280 to share his wisdom and his presence with you here again. Hello, 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:28.960 my friend. I am so glad to be back. And 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.120 of course we have been chatting before this, and I 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.360 feel like we could get together for this show once 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.760 a season for years and years and years and years 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:42.560 and just sort of vaguely chat about everything forever. But 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.240 this time, this time, we are here to talk about 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.640 your new book and why it matters in this moment, 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:53.040 individually and collectively. So I want to hear about two 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.200 things before we really get rolling. And I'm doing this 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.960 because I know how conversations with you go. You say 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.120 something and it reminds me of something else, and then 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.440 we're before we know it, those horses have not only 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:08.200 left the barn, but they are in Arkansas and we 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.279 started in California. So two things that I want to 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.320 know from you before we get rolling. First, can you 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.960 tell us about your new book? And second can you 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.080 give a little primer on the Buddhist eightfold path so 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.960 that people know what we're referring to as we talk 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:25.400 about it. 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:27.800 So, first of all, it's really sweet to see you 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:33.960 and thank you. Yeah. So the new book, Untangled. 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.760 Is really a book that I've been in some ways 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:43.239 living for the last couple of decades and really looking 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:49.480 at how we can actually address the gap. 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:51.719 Between what we all kind of know. 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:54.320 If we pause for a second and you say, what 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.120 do I really value? What do I really care about? 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.800 What are the things that I care about? What activities 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.880 that are nourishing to me, the people, and actually what 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:08.800 we're doing with our time? And so for me, the 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:13.320 forl Noble Truths and they both have are exactly the 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:19.760 medicine to address that gap that we kind of all know. 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.640 And I think it's a gap of anxiety. It's a 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:28.960 gap of aversion from our discomfort for what feels hard. 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.960 We don't want to do something that's hard, and to 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.480 be with our grief, to be with our sadness, to 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:40.560 be with our anger, to be with our greed. You know, 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.920 we just fill in, you know, and cover over what 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:48.080 is most important, and then we end up living our lives, 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.160 or we can end up living our lives actually just 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:56.920 always far away from what we most care about. And so, 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:02.560 you know, the historical Liddho was so smart and often 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.640 he has thought of as the great position and as 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.360 the great position. One of the reasons why he's known 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.920 is that is because he diagnosed the problem, which is 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:17.280 that there's suffering, that there is tangled that there's you know, 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.400 as my grandmother would say, it was souris you know, 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:27.320 like basically it hurts, and we feel confused and overwhelmed 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:31.160 and all of this stuff. And the first nobility is 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:35.079 that there is suffering. And I remember as a young 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:43.120 kid feeling so grateful for someone acknowledging that things are hard, 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.760 that they're suffering in life, that it's real. Because I 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.240 grew up in a space where most people were telling 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.400 me what I was thinking was happening wasn't happening, and 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.199 everything was just fine, and it wasn't fine. 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.040 So hearing that first. 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.920 Nobility and the nobility of suffering, that that it's noble, 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.520 you know, that we can actually sit in nobility and 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:13.400 realize that yes, I feel tangled up and that there 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:17.880 is something about honoring that that I feel like a 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:22.679 mess where I feel terrible. And the second nobility are 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.120 these giants of what I think of as giants because 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:31.160 they giants exist in pretty much any culture where they're 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:35.839 kind of like the giant size of what we is 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:41.240 normally you know, smaller, which is greed and resentment and 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:46.960 delusion and oh boy, and to really jump into that, 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:51.319 these are what caused the suffering, caused the tangle, and 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:56.679 to me, there to really honor, you know, to really 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:02.920 see clearly with acuity, with a loving acuity of attention. 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.560 And I feel like that's probably the most important, is 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:11.680 to really look at really carefully in a loving tender way, like, oh, 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.200 I'm so greedy, I you know, I know for much 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.640 of my life, you know, I was holding onto this 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:24.760 feeling of victimization. I was really sure because of you know, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:29.840 the different kinds of abuse that I experienced that it 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.480 made me a victim, which on one hand I was, 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:40.320 you know, those things happened, and what was extra is 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.480 my greed of holding onto like that's who I was. 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.880 When I realized, like I had, terrible things happened to 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:52.160 me and many wonderful things, but I was kind of 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.360 holding on to one side of that as an identity. 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.480 So it's kind of a different way of understanding greed. 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.160 You know, sometimes we understand greed which is also a 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.360 cause of suffering, which is trying to get stuff in 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:09.440 the world. You know, if my teacher thought I was 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.800 a good person, or if I got a car or 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:17.240 an iPhone or whatever that is, you know, or people 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:21.120 like me that can be agreed to, like the desire 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:25.920 to be liked and all those different ways, and so 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.240 so greed is one of them the causes of our 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:35.520 suffering and then resentment holding on holding on to like. 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:38.280 That kind of anger that where we just. 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.320 Like hold it and hold it and hold it. It 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:47.200 just corrodes, corrodes away. And I know for me, you 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.560 know too, I'm in my own experience. And this is 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:52.720 one of the things that was really important for me 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:58.400 in writing this, is to really get into that spaces 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.960 myself so that I could walk with you the reader, 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:06.280 to really say, like, I have my experience and what 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:11.520 is yours? And you know, that feeling of resentment towards 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.160 the people who had perpetrated against me, Like I really 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:19.320 held onto this like and it became like a black bile, 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:25.720 you know, like you just like look and really seeing that, 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.600 just seeing like how we hold on to resentment and 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.120 what it does to us. 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.280 What does the greed do to us? You know? 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.920 In the last one's delusion where we kind of separate, 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.840 we are delusive because we think that we're alone. To me, 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:45.880 that's the fundamental delusion, is that we're alone. And you know, 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:50.000 for one of my favorite antidotes to that is just 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.840 to look up and look around and realize that we're 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.480 just part of the world and it's our delusion that 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:02.000 we're not. To me, the fun delusion of separateness is 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.079 really like when we have the feeling of being alone 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.360 and then turning it into a truth, you know, and 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:14.240 how often instead of feeling our feelings and letting the 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:18.560 feelings just flow like a river and we can sit 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.560 on the bank and just watch all those thoughts and 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:27.040 feelings flow around and learning how to see that instead 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:31.520 of identifying of that's who I am, I am that 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:33.240 feeling of alone. 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.720 I love that you started all of this with the 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:40.840 acknowledgment of suffering. I also like we're probably going to 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.280 pull out what you said about that first truth of 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.720 the nobility of suffering, being able to look at the 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:47.720 world and say ouch. 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:49.360 Right. 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.559 One of the things that irritates me about spiritual bypassing 0:13:53.720 --> 0:14:01.920 is that we take these intensely deep and beautiful and useful, single, simple, 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.920 simple in air quotes here, simple teachings and twist them 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.920 to our own nefarious devices. Right, like to be able 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.080 to say, like yea, yeah, yeah, life is pain. You 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:14.920 have to get over it. You have to move on. 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:17.920 That happened to you, but you can't let it define you. 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:23.480 That is not what the Buddha taughte and that is 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:25.560 not what the apl path is about. It is not 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.560 about saying yeah, yeah, yeah, this terrible stuff happened to you, 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.280 but you have to not hold on to it. You 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:35.800 have to let go of your feelings about what happened 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.800 to you. I feel like we could spend an entire 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:48.080 lifetime just studying thing one which is ouch and giving 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:52.560 space to letting things hurt and seeing our hurt in 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.440 ourselves and seeing the hurt in the people around us, 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.680 and seeing the things that hurt in the world and 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.400 giving that breathing space. And if we can't do that, 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.120 it makes it really difficult to go into all of 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:11.000 the things that you just described about noticing your feelings 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.400 and getting untangled and working with resentment and looking at 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:19.200 the ways that in a way, painful things get weaponized, 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.840 whether by the world outside not seeing you and not 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:28.960 recognizing the truth of what you're living, and therefore we 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.360 get sort of resentful of like if you're not gonna 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.000 see me, then I'm going to make sure you see me. Right, 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:38.120 pain passed to the outside world or that sort of 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:43.120 spiritual bypassing of it's not quote unquote enlightened to be 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:47.240 in pain. You're supposed to use these tools to free 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:51.560 yourself of it. And I am very Buddhist light in 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:56.200 my understanding of the teachings. This is something that I 0:15:56.240 --> 0:16:01.400 hear a lot from people that they move away from 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:06.680 anything spiritual or religious, or meditation can cure cancer, all 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:11.600 of these things because we don't do that step number one, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.480 you're in pain, and I see it totally. 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.320 I mean, yeah, it's to me the most important. It 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.640 was also so interesting because when I was preparing to 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.560 write this book, I started reading on their texts about 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:29.120 the vulnerable truths, and usually the first three you know, 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.400 as you're saying the out or the tangle and the 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.200 causes of suffering. You know, people tend to write like 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.840 one chapter about that and then then move into the 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:41.200 rest of it as they full path, which is kind 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:47.240 of the prescription to heal and for me like, no, no, no, no, 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:52.200 I just slow it down. Yeah, if we're to be real, 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:54.840 you know, I thought, actually, what you were going to 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.400 say about the challenge of spiritual bypassing, I would that 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.000 you're going to say this challenges spiritual bypassing. 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:02.400 Is spiritual bypassing? 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:06.480 Why? 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:13.720 Yes, that is accurate. Bypassing is bad because it's bypassing. Yes. 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:14.560 Yeah. 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:19.320 And I think that it's so important to honor what's hard. 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.600 It's just critical because the reality is that life is 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:29.159 sour and sweet and savory and everything. So how do 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:33.280 we appreciate what's hard because we all know that life's 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:37.640 hard and it's also so interesting, and so that another. 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.400 Reason we need each other is to remind each. 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.919 Other, Oh, it's hard, all right, Yeah, yeah, you're in 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:45.040 that hard spot. 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:46.240 Yeah. 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.840 I feel like you can watch somebody, if somebody is 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.000 in pain, and instead of cheering them up, telling them 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:54.640 to look on the bright side, telling them that maybe 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:56.600 they should get on their mat and meditate, Like all 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.920 of these things if you do what you just described, 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:05.000 which is mirror that back. Yeah, this sucks, this is hard. 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:09.560 What happened to you was not okay? Right, you can 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:14.439 watch their physical being relax in a way. Right, Like 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.920 there is such powerful medicine and acknowledgment. What I hear 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.960 you saying is like, we only get to use the 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.840 tools to come to our own aid and our own 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:30.480 assistance when we tell the truth, and it super helps 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:34.359 to have that truth reflected and validated by the world 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.240 around you. And then we can jump into all of 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:42.120 these beautiful tools that you're talking about in Untangling. Then 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.639 we can talk about how do you work with the 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.359 pain and the suffering in your own life so that 0:18:48.440 --> 0:19:01.159 it doesn't fester and cause more harm. We're talking with 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:04.880 Koshin Paley Ellison, author of the new book Untangled. Let's 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:05.520 get back to it. 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.240 You know, I was thinking about we have this Contemplative 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:14.920 Medicine fellowship for our physicians and there's practitioners, and it's 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.480 a year long training because we were really just worried 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:22.480 about doctors and nur's practitioners because they have the highest 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:26.160 rates of suicide, the highest rates of divorce, drugging, alcohol 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:30.920 abuse and leaving the profession. It's actually often thought of 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.120 as the most unhealthy profession. 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.840 And we realized that in. 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:41.600 Order to engage them in a loving way, we had 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.520 to start with the truth of suffering, right, And so 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.439 we start right there, and it's like, okay, so let's 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:52.879 talk about what's hard and what you're caring inside of 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:59.040 yourself in your interpersonal relationships and your life out in 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.280 the world. I think that it's such a beautiful model 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:06.240 for all of us to think about, Okay, what hurts, 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.560 what's tangled up inside of me, what's tangled up in 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:14.520 my inner personal relationships, and what's tangled up in my 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:18.919 relationship with the world, and what's topsy turvy, you know 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.320 what is kind of a little cup cooop here. And 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:26.520 to me, when we start to do that, you know, 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.720 I was thinking about my teacher again, you and he 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:34.840 was talking about the most important thing is to suffer 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:36.639 together first. 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:38.440 So let's suffer together. 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.960 And so to me, that's why those very powerful giants 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.639 of greed and resentment and delusion are so important. Is like, 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:50.639 oh you too, you too. Tell me about how those 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.280 things affect you, and I'll tell you how they affect me. 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.320 And so we can get really. 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:01.720 Real, yeah, real, and curious about each other, right, curious 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.520 about pain in our own lives and the pain in others, 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:07.520 so that we can suffer together. 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:08.720 Right. 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:13.120 You only get that kind of companionship and connection when 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.040 you can tell the truth about what it's like to 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:17.520 be you, and the you that. 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:21.360 We don't often share with most people because we want 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:23.840 appear like we're okay. 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.280 Reminds me of a book that you wrote, Yes. 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.760 It's okay that you're not okay exactly. Yeah, I mean 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:35.080 this is this is such a challenge, right, It's sort 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:39.720 of chicken in the egg type thing. We pretend to 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:43.159 be okay when we're not because we've internalized all of 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.600 that messaging that says that happiness is the only true 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:47.920 marker of health and if you're suffering, you're doing it wrong. 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:53.840 And also behavioral conditioning. Right, if I come to the 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.520 people in my life and I say, hey, this is 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.639 really hard right now, and what I get back is 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:03.760 not validation or acknowledgment, it's spiritual bypassing. It's you think 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.399 you have it bad, My life is worse. One of 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.480 the things that I say often is like, if you 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:13.240 keep going to the grocery store looking for milk and 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:16.359 they insist on selling you furniture. You're going to stop 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:18.639 going to that store because you're not going to get 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:19.560 what you need. 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:20.639 Right. 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.119 So it's tricky because I think, I think, because we 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:29.480 have such a backlog of being able to name the 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:33.320 truth of suffering, it almost fuels the resentment that we're 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:36.760 trying to untangle by using the tools of untangling resentment 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:38.919 because it's like, oh, great, now I'm just supposed to 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:42.800 like start being open and honest and start dealing with 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:46.560 my resentment. I mean, I can feel myself getting tangled 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:49.640 up even just trying to express it right. 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:53.520 Like right, because before we think that there is it's 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:59.960 linear right now, reality is not linear. Our brains sometimes 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:03.240 just wants to create a linear story. First do this, 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:06.960 then do that, and then do that. Like many of us, 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:09.960 you know, look for self help books or different things 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:15.480 where tell me what to do to not feel often. 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:20.040 What I'm feeling. And to me, the courage comes from 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:23.480 that clarity of oh, right. 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:27.280 Like, I'm in a hard moment right now, and to 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:32.240 realize we're just in that moment that's challenging, not in 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:37.240 a reality that we can turn it into like that's 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:43.640 my reality. Everything's hard, life sucks, and sometimes life does suck. 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:48.400 But I think that the key part is sometimes. 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:53.639 Sometimes yeah, it's it's interesting, and this is this is 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:55.320 the effect that you have in the world. I will 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.280 just say this, Like I just mentioned that, like even 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:01.919 talking about and resentment and all of these things, I 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:04.719 could feel myself getting tangled and in my head I 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:08.560 went go back to step one, go back to step one, 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:14.159 which is, oh right, this is hard, and that did something. 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:15.520 Right. 0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:18.359 I mean, it's amazing. Just telling the truth seems like 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.640 it's too simple to be of any kind of use 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:23.919 at all. But I feel like we're in such a 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:27.879 habit of managing the feelings instead of naming the experience, 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:31.840 and that that really is what this book is about. 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:37.359 Right when you're noticing that tangle, that anxiety, that resentment, 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:43.320 that frustration, and going back to step one, yeah. 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:48.360 Acknowledgement, Oh I'm in that nobility of things get tangled up. 0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:56.040 I'm just I'm back here, okay, yeah, okay, okay, okay, yeah. 0:24:56.960 --> 0:25:01.640 I want to talk a little bit about you as 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:06.360 a younger person, because I think that these conversations can 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:10.919 get philosophical and esoteric really quickly. So there's a story 0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:13.160 in the book where you talk about being chased through 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:16.800 the woods as a child. Are you okay if we 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:20.119 talk about that story, do you want to share that story? 0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:21.920 Yeah? 0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:28.280 So I think what's important about the story too, is 0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:33.080 that what happened before the story and okay, what happened 0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:37.000 is that there were these pictures that maybe some of 0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:42.080 us all remember of those refugees being kind of lassoed 0:25:42.119 --> 0:25:45.720 at the border and kind of hunted at the border, 0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:50.680 like on horseback. And the images were so haunting and 0:25:50.720 --> 0:25:56.000 so disturbing to me. I just felt such tenderness and 0:25:56.160 --> 0:26:02.120 such sorrow and fear these images, and there was something 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:04.200 about it. I was like, what is it about that 0:26:04.320 --> 0:26:07.280 image that is so scary to me? 0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:10.520 And I was biking. 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:12.960 Home and you know, I live in a little island 0:26:13.000 --> 0:26:18.320 called Manhattan and has these beautiful rivers all around it, 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:22.360 and I liked to bike home at night. And I 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:25.479 was biking home and you kind of have to go 0:26:25.560 --> 0:26:28.320 off into the wooded area and it was getting dark, 0:26:28.840 --> 0:26:33.480 and I suddenly this memory just like shot through me 0:26:33.680 --> 0:26:36.400 and I literally fell off my bike, like it just 0:26:36.520 --> 0:26:38.000 like literally. 0:26:37.680 --> 0:26:42.680 Hit me, and I just fell off the bike. 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:48.200 And what happened was that my mother and my stepfather 0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:51.639 had this kind of idea of romantic idea kind of 0:26:51.640 --> 0:26:55.760 a beautiful utopian idea of homesteading and living off the 0:26:55.840 --> 0:26:59.359 land and moving into a rural place and won't that 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:03.520 be great? And a razor on food and whatever that is. 0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:07.280 So we moved to this tiny little town in the 0:27:07.480 --> 0:27:14.040 upstate New York and clearly they had never had Jews there, 0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:17.160 and you know, the first night that kind of circled 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:20.360 our house and the four wheelers and were shooting at 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:25.119 the house and painted jew in the mailbox. And I actually, 0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:30.160 I was, I think ten years old, and I had 0:27:30.359 --> 0:27:32.840 never been so terrified in my life. And actually I 0:27:32.880 --> 0:27:35.320 didn't even know that I was. I didn't really even 0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:38.640 understand that I was Jewish, like even what that meant, 0:27:38.680 --> 0:27:41.520 because I felt like I looked like everybody else, but 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:44.879 it was clear I was not like everybody else. So 0:27:44.920 --> 0:27:48.040 we lived in this kind of town where actually, even 0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:51.879 in the public school, it's so horrific, you know, and 0:27:52.080 --> 0:27:54.239 I think it's important you know that this is in 0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:58.840 New York state, upstate New York. And the teacher lifting 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:01.120 me up by my hair and saying, show us your 0:28:01.160 --> 0:28:05.400 horns jew and somehow, and I still can feel the 0:28:05.440 --> 0:28:08.080 pain of that, like the physical pain and. 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:10.640 The kind of humiliation of that. 0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:14.840 And I remember still feeling a sense of agency somehow 0:28:15.000 --> 0:28:18.600 going to the principal's office and saying, you know, this 0:28:18.720 --> 0:28:21.160 is what happens, and he's like, well, where are your horns? 0:28:22.640 --> 0:28:26.879 So it was that kind of town, deeply racist place, 0:28:27.359 --> 0:28:30.560 and one of the places where I found a lot 0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:35.520 of solace as a young person. We had a lot 0:28:35.560 --> 0:28:38.360 of woods, and so i'd go off into the woods 0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:41.520 and find these big boulders and lay on the boulders 0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:44.960 and just try to you know, often the boulders were 0:28:45.360 --> 0:28:48.440 covered in moss, and just to be able to feel 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:53.600 the ground and feel supported and comforted by the world, 0:28:54.200 --> 0:28:56.960 and just looking up at the canopy of trees and 0:28:57.000 --> 0:28:59.640 the light coming through the trees has always been so 0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:03.960 magical to me and continues to be just the kind 0:29:04.000 --> 0:29:07.840 of effmorable, ephemeral beauty of the world. 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:10.880 One afternoon, late afternoon. 0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:15.280 I'd gotten really far away from the house and pretty 0:29:15.320 --> 0:29:19.040 deep in the woods where there were these trails that 0:29:19.120 --> 0:29:22.600 I heard the four wheelers coming and they saw me 0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:25.160 and they're like, you know, died you died, and they 0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:27.920 had guns and they were shooting at me. So it's 0:29:28.000 --> 0:29:32.680 like being I was actually being hunted, and even now, 0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:35.840 like it's hard to even touch the feeling of it, 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:40.080 you know, And so I'm even noticing while I'm saying 0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:45.600 it now, it's so hard to touch the depth of 0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:47.280 that terror. 0:29:48.440 --> 0:29:49.600 So it was getting. 0:29:49.320 --> 0:29:54.120 Dark into the lights on their four wheelers and the gunshots, 0:29:54.960 --> 0:30:00.000 and I just remember like jumping into like the side 0:30:00.240 --> 0:30:01.360 off the trail. 0:30:01.800 --> 0:30:04.480 I went around a corner and I thought I'd kind of. 0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:08.320 Be able to hide and landed in this BlackBerry bramble 0:30:08.360 --> 0:30:12.760 which you got completely cut up, and just laid there, 0:30:13.160 --> 0:30:15.960 you know, a breath and heart beating, and that's all 0:30:16.000 --> 0:30:20.440 I really remember. And they passed and couldn't find me. 0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:24.480 But it was so so. 0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:30.320 Powerful, And that's what I remember, the hunting, like i'd remember. 0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:33.040 The hair pulling. I remembered, you know, being. 0:30:33.160 --> 0:30:37.760 Our house being circled, but the hunting, being a human 0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:42.280 being hunted by other humans, like I was a young boy, 0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:46.680 and what is that, you know? So what I fell 0:30:46.720 --> 0:30:49.880 off my bike is like that's what I remembered. The 0:30:50.000 --> 0:30:54.200 light kind of getting dark in the forest and being 0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:59.040 terrified and they were my neighbors. I knew these people, 0:31:00.200 --> 0:31:03.880 So it really, you know, brought me back to you know, 0:31:04.000 --> 0:31:07.680 I've come from a family who were affected by the Holocaust, 0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:11.000 and we're actually most of my family who were killed 0:31:11.000 --> 0:31:12.280 were killed by their neighbors. 0:31:12.640 --> 0:31:17.040 And how easily that can happen, and how that almost 0:31:17.120 --> 0:31:20.400 happened to me. Well, it did happen, but I didn't 0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:23.320 get killed, you know, And so I think that there 0:31:23.400 --> 0:31:25.600 was also this like, well what is that? 0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:30.440 And someone that could do that, they were probably, like 0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:35.120 I don't know, teenagers of some kind, you know. 0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:38.400 And if we think about compassion, how. 0:31:38.280 --> 0:31:43.360 Does compassion include those people and yet hold people responsible. 0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:50.360 So it makes me really feel really deeply for the 0:31:50.480 --> 0:31:51.560 challenge that. 0:31:52.480 --> 0:31:53.200 We're met with. 0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:56.120 And for me, what has been so important for my 0:31:56.240 --> 0:32:01.520 own healing process is to really recognize and turn the 0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:05.840 light to where it isn't and saying, oh, right, this happened, 0:32:06.280 --> 0:32:12.600 It was real, It was terrifying, and in some ways. 0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:16.640 Those wounds, my wounds. 0:32:16.600 --> 0:32:22.320 Those wounds are exactly what has propelled me into a 0:32:22.400 --> 0:32:29.320 life of healing and intimacy and the almost demand for that. 0:32:30.120 --> 0:32:34.640 And I learned from early early age that my body 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:41.280 wouldn't necessarily continue that my body could get killed like that. 0:32:41.640 --> 0:32:44.040 I knew that from a very young age, and so 0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:50.040 I think this it has brought this like exquisite focus. 0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:51.240 Into the beauty of the world. 0:32:51.800 --> 0:32:54.760 And so I think sometimes I think the was the 0:32:54.760 --> 0:32:59.160 mythologist Michael Mead where he's talks about like these wounds 0:32:59.200 --> 0:33:01.600 and he's like kind of almost like knife loves to 0:33:01.680 --> 0:33:05.480 your heart at an early age can propel us into 0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:10.200 our life purpose. And so I'm also so glad that 0:33:10.320 --> 0:33:13.520 I was able to, you know, with lots of therapy, 0:33:15.280 --> 0:33:19.240 a lot, but really a lot of therapy, and with 0:33:19.480 --> 0:33:26.160 really good people, having really meaningful friends, and you know, 0:33:26.200 --> 0:33:32.040 a steady meditation practice has been completely that kind of 0:33:32.120 --> 0:33:37.640 that combination of three things has been what has shifted 0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:42.360 things dramatically for me. And really learning how to stay 0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:47.160 with what's hard and not turn away. And you know, 0:33:47.400 --> 0:33:51.720 it was two years later that I actually met my 0:33:51.840 --> 0:33:55.920 first teacher, who was this guy send Say White and 0:33:55.960 --> 0:33:59.840 sense White was you know, I'd seen these movies came out, 0:34:00.200 --> 0:34:03.960 which now there's remakes and enfranchises about them, Star Wars 0:34:04.000 --> 0:34:08.880 and Karate Kid, the original ones, and I would just 0:34:09.080 --> 0:34:13.279 love these two, like the Karate Kid and Luke Skywalker 0:34:13.320 --> 0:34:17.879 were so whiny and like nag, you know, they were 0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:21.719 so whiny, and it was so helpful to me because 0:34:21.760 --> 0:34:25.200 I realized, like I felt so whiny, and there was 0:34:25.239 --> 0:34:28.719 something about the hero being able to whine, which kind 0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:32.600 of gets back to what you were saying before, or 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:36.000 that like incredible scene of. 0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:38.799 When I don't know if. 0:34:38.719 --> 0:34:43.320 You saw this film called Spirited Away where it's a 0:34:43.320 --> 0:34:47.240 genius and there's a scene of this giant baby. 0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:49.160 I love the giant. 0:34:48.840 --> 0:34:52.280 Baby so much, and it's just like this crazy giant 0:34:52.320 --> 0:34:56.319 baby and she's like, like, you have to attend to that. 0:34:57.040 --> 0:34:59.640 You have to attend to our giant baby. 0:34:59.320 --> 0:35:01.400 You know, and that bag, you know. 0:35:02.360 --> 0:35:07.040 And so I found this teacher since White because I realized, oh, 0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:10.080 you could have a teacher who actually helps you to 0:35:10.200 --> 0:35:13.360 not whine and never had registered to me, and I 0:35:13.520 --> 0:35:17.400 felt like I was kind of stuck, and I realized, oh, 0:35:17.400 --> 0:35:19.880 I have to find a teacher and ow karate, so 0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:23.480 you can learn karate and find a teacher, and so 0:35:23.640 --> 0:35:27.520 I went to the local strip mall. This is when 0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:30.960 after we moved back from that mountain town. 0:35:30.880 --> 0:35:31.480 You could say. 0:35:31.880 --> 0:35:34.719 And in the bottom of the drug store was this 0:35:34.840 --> 0:35:39.480 karate school was like really gross, you know, like really 0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:43.080 like definitely had a lot of fun gus going on there. 0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:46.279 But there was this teacher, sense White, and he used 0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:48.520 to have a sit and says that, which is like 0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:51.400 when you have your legs underneath yourself, you're sitting almost 0:35:51.440 --> 0:35:54.320 like on your knees. And it was not like the 0:35:54.440 --> 0:35:57.480 kind of karate school where like there was like kids classes. 0:35:57.520 --> 0:35:59.319 So I was like, I was kind of the real 0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:03.479 super high ball at eleven years old, which is another theme. 0:36:05.880 --> 0:36:08.400 But he used to walk around us and say that 0:36:08.480 --> 0:36:10.759 we would sit there like that, and it hurts so 0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:14.080 much because now these days, you know, if you sit meditation, 0:36:14.239 --> 0:36:17.160 you have a nice chushion, you have a nice share or. 0:36:17.120 --> 0:36:17.920 Whatever that is. 0:36:18.640 --> 0:36:21.200 We laid down and this is like on a hardwood 0:36:21.239 --> 0:36:26.480 floor and he would be sweating and sitting there sweating, sweating, sweating, 0:36:26.560 --> 0:36:30.840 and he said, you know, you'll never be free until 0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:35.200 you can be still with your pain. And coming from 0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:40.520 that town, that also I began to see how, you know, 0:36:40.680 --> 0:36:44.960 people in my family, how those kids on the four wheelers, 0:36:45.520 --> 0:36:49.560 that none of them knew how to be still with 0:36:49.600 --> 0:36:53.200 their pain. Otherwise, why would anyone cause so much harm 0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:57.360 like I couldn't articulate at that time, but I remember 0:36:57.440 --> 0:37:01.919 feeling like I understood them somehow, in not a very 0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:06.600 sophisticated way, that I understood that they did not know 0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:12.160 how that their values and their actions were together, because 0:37:12.480 --> 0:37:14.960 as we were talking about earlier, they didn't know how 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:16.840 to be with their tangle. They didn't know how to 0:37:16.880 --> 0:37:20.440 be with their pain or never mind the causes of 0:37:20.480 --> 0:37:24.120 their pain. They just like you know, bounce, bounce off 0:37:24.160 --> 0:37:26.080 their pain and just. 0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:28.280 React, react, react, react. 0:37:28.480 --> 0:37:31.759 For these days, people's I get trigger, trigger, you know, 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:37.719 and as opposed to yes, I feel pain and I 0:37:37.760 --> 0:37:43.799 can stay here with you, Yes, it's true and I'm 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:48.320 here with you. To me, learning how to be still 0:37:48.360 --> 0:37:53.520 with your pain is the beginning of intimacy, and that 0:37:53.640 --> 0:37:57.960 Mads not crazy, but for me, it is totally true. 0:37:58.360 --> 0:38:03.000 Okay, I've been just sitting here listening and thank you 0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:07.719 for sharing all of that. I think what you just 0:38:07.880 --> 0:38:13.400 said about learning to be silent with your pain is 0:38:13.960 --> 0:38:15.440 I don't even remember what you said because it was 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:20.600 so perfect, but about intimacy starting there, right, And this 0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:24.959 is something that we've been talking about from various entry 0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:29.239 points this whole time, is that it is not that 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:36.400 horrendous things don't happen. It's also not that horrendous things happen. Yeah, 0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:39.520 but let's move on and not live there anymore. This 0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:46.719 is being here and being human is impossible and it 0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:50.640 is and delicious. Yes, I'm getting there, don't you worry. 0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:53.360 I'm coming. I'm coming for the joy and the beauty. 0:38:53.960 --> 0:38:58.720 But I think there's so much in what you just shared, 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:03.640 and so much of it is loss of intimacy, loss 0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:07.040 of connection, feeling like you're the only one in the world, 0:39:07.280 --> 0:39:09.919 pain getting passed down and passed down and passed down, 0:39:10.080 --> 0:39:14.000 and reactivity time being so fast that you don't even 0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:16.760 recognize that you are in pain, and that is driving 0:39:16.800 --> 0:39:21.799 your actions and your reactions, and so much of our 0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:28.040 real spiritual traditions are about slow the fuck down and 0:39:28.120 --> 0:39:32.359 say ouch, and sit with that and tell the truth 0:39:32.400 --> 0:39:36.560 about that, and learn to be silent with that pain 0:39:37.440 --> 0:39:42.040 so that you can wonder, how do I want to 0:39:42.120 --> 0:39:47.799 move in this world? Living what I just lived? And 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:50.719 so much of your work and the Zencenter's work and 0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:52.360 all of the things that you do in all of 0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:56.359 your books, this one especially really dives right into it 0:39:56.480 --> 0:40:04.040 of ouch and how will we live? With that so 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:10.840 that the pain does not eclipse every other experience moving forward. Yes, 0:40:10.960 --> 0:40:16.560 the joy, the beauty and the intimacy. It's not about 0:40:17.480 --> 0:40:19.440 deal with your pain so you can put it behind you. 0:40:19.600 --> 0:40:23.439 It is listen to your pain so that you get 0:40:23.480 --> 0:40:26.399 to have some agency and some choice in how that 0:40:26.480 --> 0:40:27.080 lives in you. 0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:31.520 Yes, you know, I think that you know, I still 0:40:31.560 --> 0:40:37.120 have scars from that moment of being hunted, and and 0:40:37.239 --> 0:40:39.680 I think I'm glad. 0:40:39.440 --> 0:40:41.360 That I do, you know. 0:40:41.360 --> 0:40:44.120 And that to me it's also part of like I 0:40:44.160 --> 0:40:46.160 can see it on my body, you know, like there 0:40:46.200 --> 0:40:50.960 it is, but it's real. And I think that so 0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:57.640 much of our negation of what's happened is what causes 0:40:57.920 --> 0:41:02.160 more suffering. And so to me it's like, yes, that happened, 0:41:02.440 --> 0:41:07.279 and it is what's propelled me towards healing, and so 0:41:07.520 --> 0:41:11.480 like that, I'm just loving this conversation, first of all 0:41:11.840 --> 0:41:16.239 being with you. And that's why those first tree noble 0:41:16.280 --> 0:41:23.280 truths are they deserve that nobility of attention and really 0:41:24.080 --> 0:41:28.200 feeling them so that we can go to the actually 0:41:28.520 --> 0:41:32.839 you're asked about the that for me, it's actually the 0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:36.080 third one nobility is that there's another way to do 0:41:36.160 --> 0:41:38.880 it you can pivot. 0:41:38.440 --> 0:41:40.400 But it's not to deny. 0:41:40.840 --> 0:41:45.720 The pivot is not a denial or a turning away 0:41:46.080 --> 0:41:52.839 from it's because you have suffered and know what it 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:57.360 is to feel almost impossible things. 0:41:58.080 --> 0:41:59.480 It's because of. 0:41:59.360 --> 0:42:04.000 That you can actually turn in a whole bodied way 0:42:05.000 --> 0:42:11.480 towards well, what else is true? Because I know what's hard, 0:42:12.320 --> 0:42:16.000 I can actually see you more clearly, and I can 0:42:16.160 --> 0:42:22.279 really appreciate the preciousness of this moment, like I can 0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:27.680 see your eyes right now, and how rarely we actually 0:42:27.719 --> 0:42:32.520 are paying attention, and so like, from there then we 0:42:32.560 --> 0:42:36.319 can go into the nobility of yes, there are these practices, 0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:40.680 Yes there are, and the full path is really built 0:42:40.880 --> 0:42:46.719 on wisdom, compassion and ethics. Like yes, And because we're 0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:52.919 not again turning away from anything, we're saying what we 0:42:52.960 --> 0:42:57.040 go through and live in this life is what makes 0:42:57.120 --> 0:43:03.480 us wives, is what teaches us, compassion is what teaches 0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:10.080 us our own ethics, what our ethics actually are, how 0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:16.640 to live an ethical life? You know, recently we're with 0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:20.080 with our friend Tronia and she has this incredible ranch 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:25.520 in New Mexico and they just have these crazy fires 0:43:26.560 --> 0:43:32.680 and eating up everything but not everything, and part of 0:43:32.719 --> 0:43:37.760 the land that she's Stewards there has this great, great 0:43:38.360 --> 0:43:44.080 cedar tree, and the cedar tree is totally singed by 0:43:44.080 --> 0:43:50.160 the fire and yet so alive in the top, you know, 0:43:50.360 --> 0:43:54.000 and so alive throughout. And she was saying that, you know, 0:43:54.120 --> 0:43:58.960 they the tree is so deep, its roots are so 0:43:59.320 --> 0:44:06.040 deep that it stays moist and the fire can't really 0:44:06.080 --> 0:44:07.360 burn it and singe it. 0:44:08.440 --> 0:44:09.720 And so to me, the. 0:44:09.520 --> 0:44:13.480 Eightful path are actually just living, you know, you could say, 0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:18.680 just living with wisdom, compassion, ethics is allowing that depth 0:44:19.360 --> 0:44:23.600 and that verticality where we can feel the depth of 0:44:24.680 --> 0:44:33.640 the darkness and the height of spirit and air and possibility. 0:44:34.560 --> 0:44:37.480 And so I think that that kind of verticality is 0:44:37.520 --> 0:44:40.000 always available to all of us. And so it's this 0:44:41.280 --> 0:44:46.239 such a gorgeous image of allowing ourself to go deep 0:44:46.960 --> 0:44:52.440 into what's heard, into what's confusing, into what is inconceivable, 0:44:53.440 --> 0:44:57.040 so that we can actually grow strong. And to me, 0:44:57.200 --> 0:45:00.680 that's what courage is, you know, to feel like, oh, 0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:06.560 this is scary and let's go ooh this is hard, 0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:09.400 and let's go idiot. 0:45:10.560 --> 0:45:21.520 Yeah yeah. 0:45:21.719 --> 0:45:21.919 Hey. 0:45:22.040 --> 0:45:23.920 Before we get back to this week's guest, I want 0:45:23.960 --> 0:45:26.960 to talk with you about exploring your losses. Through writing. 0:45:27.600 --> 0:45:30.080 There are lots of grief writing workshops out there with 0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:33.439 prompts like tell us about the funeral, that sort of thing. 0:45:34.160 --> 0:45:36.759 My thirty day Writing your Grief course is not like that. 0:45:37.719 --> 0:45:40.520 Them prompts are deeper, they're more nuanced. They're designed to 0:45:40.520 --> 0:45:44.480 get you into your heart and into your own actual story. Now, 0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:46.759 writing isn't going to cure anything, but it can help 0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:50.040 you hear your own voice, and that is incredibly powerful. 0:45:51.080 --> 0:45:53.080 You can read all about the Writing your Grief Course 0:45:53.200 --> 0:45:57.839 at Refuge in Grief dot com backslash wyg. That is 0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:01.360 WYG for Writing your Grief. You can see a sample 0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:04.280 prompt from the course and get writing your own words 0:46:04.280 --> 0:46:07.440 in minutes. My thirty day Writing your Grief Course is 0:46:07.440 --> 0:46:10.680 still one of the best things I've ever made for you. 0:46:10.719 --> 0:46:12.839 Come join more than ten thousand people who have taken 0:46:12.880 --> 0:46:17.280 the Writing your Grief Course Refugegrief dot Com backslash wyg, 0:46:17.920 --> 0:46:21.480 or you can find the link in the show notes. Okay, 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:23.520 so this phrase just popped into my head and you know, 0:46:23.640 --> 0:46:27.040 like pop psychology meme sort of thing, but like the 0:46:27.120 --> 0:46:30.240 life you long for is on the other side of fear. Now. 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:34.120 I am not a fan of lifestyle edicts by Meme. 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:37.440 But that's what came up in my mind as you 0:46:37.480 --> 0:46:41.680 were talking about that. And again, it's not it's not 0:46:41.800 --> 0:46:45.880 a binary and it's not linear. It's not you dive 0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:50.239 into really witnessing and paying attention to your pain or 0:46:50.280 --> 0:46:52.400 somebody else's pain or the pain of the world so 0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:54.920 that you can live a great life like this. That 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:57.800 binary is trash and that is not what we're talking about. 0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:03.680 But what we're talking about is we all intrinsically as 0:47:03.840 --> 0:47:07.280 social creatures, as mammals, we need each other to survive 0:47:08.800 --> 0:47:15.960 and in order to feel companioned inside the impossible things 0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:22.600 that we live and feel companioned, enjoy this practice that 0:47:22.640 --> 0:47:24.120 you talk about in the book, that you live in 0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:26.440 your life, that you've created in the in the world 0:47:26.520 --> 0:47:29.719 for the people who are fortunate to be near you. 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:34.839 This is one of the tools by which you can 0:47:34.880 --> 0:47:38.279 build that kind of life where all is welcome and 0:47:38.360 --> 0:47:40.360 if not welcome, all is seen. 0:47:41.600 --> 0:47:44.719 Yeah, there's this image to and when you're talking, I 0:47:44.840 --> 0:47:47.240 just really reminds me of this other image I've always 0:47:47.320 --> 0:47:50.480 enjoyed so much. There's this text called the load Is Sutra, 0:47:51.200 --> 0:47:52.759 which sounds promising and. 0:47:55.880 --> 0:47:56.960 At the beginning of it. 0:47:56.960 --> 0:48:01.439 It's this, you know, that this assembly, this greatest where 0:48:01.480 --> 0:48:03.960 the buddhas you know, hanging out there about to give 0:48:03.960 --> 0:48:08.040 a talk, and that the whole chapter, the whole first chapter, 0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:12.520 is describing all the people who are there. And there's 0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:17.200 demons and snakes and and you know, monks in the 0:48:17.600 --> 0:48:19.719 usual suspects, you know, a mons. 0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:23.960 Nuns and gods and all kinds of magical creatures. 0:48:24.000 --> 0:48:28.560 But there's also demons and snakes and fighting people and 0:48:28.680 --> 0:48:32.000 all kinds of people. So it's like that welcoming of 0:48:32.120 --> 0:48:37.120 this kind of canopy of reality. And to me, like 0:48:37.239 --> 0:48:41.399 that's an easy thing to say, and to me, that's 0:48:41.440 --> 0:48:45.600 why we need good spiritual friends. Why we're living actually 0:48:45.719 --> 0:48:48.760 in a sort of extraordinary time where we can actually 0:48:49.680 --> 0:48:53.279 be in community virtually and online and so like we 0:48:53.320 --> 0:48:58.279 can actually there's less barriers now than ever before to 0:48:58.440 --> 0:48:59.960 actually connect. 0:49:00.360 --> 0:49:02.480 And I know many people who have. 0:49:03.960 --> 0:49:06.480 Been part of the Zen Center in the last couple 0:49:06.480 --> 0:49:08.319 of years or just become. 0:49:08.280 --> 0:49:10.719 Very connected, and they live in the. 0:49:10.719 --> 0:49:15.120 Mountains of the Dominican Republic, in South Africa and all 0:49:15.160 --> 0:49:18.440 these different places, and they really feel a sense of belonging. 0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:23.479 So I think we need community in order to remind us. Yes, 0:49:23.760 --> 0:49:28.520 it's about inviting it all in, which is an easy 0:49:28.600 --> 0:49:30.920 thing to say, but it's like when it gets hard 0:49:31.120 --> 0:49:33.240 sometimes having someone to call like, ooh. 0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:36.520 I'm having a really hard moment, I'm all tangled. 0:49:37.719 --> 0:49:38.080 Ouch. 0:49:39.160 --> 0:49:41.239 Yeah, and we can say come on, we can do 0:49:41.320 --> 0:49:45.040 this together. We can suffer together and open. 0:49:44.760 --> 0:49:45.480 It up again. 0:49:46.400 --> 0:49:46.600 Yeah. 0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:52.799 And this, this sort of radical acknowledgment of reality is 0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:58.160 how we build connection, and it is also how we 0:49:58.200 --> 0:50:03.520 build the world that we want right where young people 0:50:04.480 --> 0:50:08.279 don't have to suffer the things that you suffer. Anyone does. 0:50:08.560 --> 0:50:12.200 And also we start you know, there's a there's another 0:50:12.239 --> 0:50:14.919 episode during this season, and I don't remember which one, 0:50:14.920 --> 0:50:18.080 but there's something where I say that heard people, hear people, 0:50:18.880 --> 0:50:20.600 which is sort of a play on that hurt people, 0:50:20.640 --> 0:50:26.279 hurt people, right, Like in that practice of hearing and 0:50:26.360 --> 0:50:30.920 listening and seeing it gives it seeing our own our 0:50:30.960 --> 0:50:33.839 own pain and saying ouch, and what do I need 0:50:33.880 --> 0:50:34.520 in this moment? 0:50:34.880 --> 0:50:35.080 Right? 0:50:36.360 --> 0:50:38.759 That opens up the capacity and the ability to do 0:50:38.800 --> 0:50:41.120 that for others, which is not the same as excusing 0:50:41.160 --> 0:50:43.239 people for their crap behavior. But that's a conversation for 0:50:43.320 --> 0:50:46.000 a different day. But really, you know, one of the 0:50:46.000 --> 0:50:48.279 things that you talk about in the book that I 0:50:48.320 --> 0:50:50.879 just want to touch on really briefly. Here is that 0:50:51.120 --> 0:50:54.440 epidemic of loneliness, and so much of what you and 0:50:54.480 --> 0:50:56.360 I have been talking about today, and so much of 0:50:56.360 --> 0:50:59.960 what is in your new book is about the antidote 0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:06.360 to that loneliness, and the antidote to loneliness this is 0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:08.440 this is not the bumper sticker we want it to be. 0:51:08.680 --> 0:51:13.000 But the antidote to loneliness is acknowledging the reality of pain, 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:17.600 right like, oh, Megan is such a downer, but discarding 0:51:17.719 --> 0:51:22.239 all of those things that we've internalized and learned and 0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:25.480 promoted to the world that the only way you're going 0:51:25.520 --> 0:51:27.160 to be liked, the only way you're going to be connected, 0:51:27.239 --> 0:51:29.799 is if you're happy and you rise above anything bad 0:51:29.800 --> 0:51:32.000 that's ever happened to you. Like all of that resilience 0:51:32.040 --> 0:51:34.520 porn and all of that stuff, but like, no, actually, 0:51:35.120 --> 0:51:39.480 real connection is in the mess of life, the beauty, 0:51:39.560 --> 0:51:43.480 the joy, the moments, the hardships, the suffering. That is 0:51:43.560 --> 0:51:46.040 where love comes from. 0:51:46.880 --> 0:51:47.360 Totally. 0:51:47.680 --> 0:51:50.560 My greatest teacher about love is my grandmother, and you 0:51:50.600 --> 0:51:53.400 know she I can't remember if we shared this story 0:51:53.440 --> 0:51:56.040 the last time we were together, but right before she 0:51:56.200 --> 0:51:59.440 was dying, she said, you know, she woke me up 0:51:59.480 --> 0:52:01.719 in the night. I was sleeping with her in the hospice, 0:52:01.800 --> 0:52:04.800 and she woke me up and she was crying and crying, 0:52:04.840 --> 0:52:07.319 and she said, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. I 0:52:07.400 --> 0:52:10.759 was like, what are you sorry about it? Because I 0:52:10.920 --> 0:52:14.880 never felt so loved by someone. She said, I just 0:52:15.080 --> 0:52:19.920 realized that there's a part of me that withdrew from 0:52:19.920 --> 0:52:25.640 you because I didn't understand that whole zending. And I 0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:30.800 feel so sorry about it because now I'm just realizing 0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:35.440 to love someone is to love all the parts of them, 0:52:35.520 --> 0:52:39.080 not just the parts that I understand, but it's their 0:52:39.239 --> 0:52:42.279 complexity that makes them who they are. 0:52:43.719 --> 0:52:46.839 I love that. I had to bite my tongue because 0:52:46.840 --> 0:52:48.359 you said that. She's like, I didn't get the whole 0:52:48.440 --> 0:52:50.279 zend thing. I'm like, wait a minute, you totally get 0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:51.040 the whole end thing. 0:52:51.520 --> 0:52:57.439 I know, of course, because the next morning is when 0:52:57.480 --> 0:53:00.719 she said, you know, I often tell because it's just 0:53:00.760 --> 0:53:03.240 so amazing. It's just like, you know, there is something 0:53:03.280 --> 0:53:06.640 to the zen thing. I never thought i'd say that. 0:53:07.960 --> 0:53:11.160 And she said, you and Jodah, who is my husband. 0:53:11.200 --> 0:53:12.560 You know, you guys should. 0:53:12.320 --> 0:53:13.040 Start some. 0:53:14.440 --> 0:53:18.440 Kind of nonprofit organization teach people about the Zen and 0:53:19.040 --> 0:53:22.000 teach people how to care for people, and that's what 0:53:22.040 --> 0:53:22.600 we're doing. 0:53:23.440 --> 0:53:25.440 I did not know that origin story. 0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:32.640 It was Mammy Schwartz, Hungarian immigrant. She's the true founder. 0:53:33.120 --> 0:53:34.000 Wow. 0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:38.239 Yeah, that's really cool. I absolutely love that. Thank you, 0:53:38.280 --> 0:53:42.879 Mimi Schwartz. Okay, I'm going to ask you the question 0:53:42.960 --> 0:53:47.480 that I'm asking everybody during this season, knowing that we're 0:53:47.520 --> 0:53:49.600 coming up on time. But you and I do this 0:53:49.640 --> 0:53:53.600 and I'm here for it. Okay. So, knowing what you know, 0:53:53.600 --> 0:53:56.160 knowing what you've lived through, what you've seen not just 0:53:56.680 --> 0:54:00.359 in your own personal history, but in the work that 0:54:00.400 --> 0:54:03.359 you do with contemplative care and end of life and 0:54:03.520 --> 0:54:08.000 working with medical providers and being a partner and you know, 0:54:08.080 --> 0:54:12.080 all of the things. Knowing what you know and being 0:54:12.120 --> 0:54:15.399 who you are, what does hope look like for you 0:54:16.040 --> 0:54:18.200 in this moment, at this time. 0:54:18.440 --> 0:54:21.880 For me, hope is actually not so great. 0:54:23.000 --> 0:54:25.640 And so actually I write about this in the book 0:54:25.680 --> 0:54:30.719 and where I You know, Pandora's baskets, you know, we 0:54:30.880 --> 0:54:32.880 thought of it. I mean think of them now as 0:54:32.920 --> 0:54:36.200 Pandora's box. But back in the day, there were baskets, 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:38.520 and there was one about all the blessings and almost 0:54:38.520 --> 0:54:44.320 all the curses on humankind, and like most people get curious, 0:54:44.400 --> 0:54:48.680 and she opened up the basket and all greed, anger 0:54:48.719 --> 0:54:54.000 and ignorance came out, jealousy and envy and justice was 0:54:54.080 --> 0:54:55.040 put in the lid. 0:54:54.840 --> 0:54:57.080 Back got hope jumped down. 0:54:58.600 --> 0:55:01.080 And so I've always thought a lot about that because 0:55:01.160 --> 0:55:03.680 I remember as a young person, I was so into 0:55:04.200 --> 0:55:08.239 Greek de belot and for me, I hope is kind 0:55:08.239 --> 0:55:11.719 of wishing that things were different, and so I think 0:55:11.760 --> 0:55:17.200 it's so tricky and for me as a human, I 0:55:17.239 --> 0:55:19.640 don't find it very helpful. Like I wished how it 0:55:19.680 --> 0:55:22.759 was different, you know, I hope it will change. I 0:55:22.800 --> 0:55:27.280 hope fill in the blank. And I'm much more interested 0:55:27.320 --> 0:55:30.440 in how are things and. 0:55:30.680 --> 0:55:33.720 What do I care about, and how do. 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:39.000 I nourish those things so that they can move into 0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:43.279 a new life, you know. And I'm so much more 0:55:43.320 --> 0:55:48.440 interested in how, you know, the great Tony Morrison loved 0:55:48.560 --> 0:55:50.960 Tony Moore, since you know why it's too hard to 0:55:51.680 --> 0:55:54.480 take refuge and how it's like I'm much more interested 0:55:54.520 --> 0:55:59.960 in how we actually get really connected to our value 0:56:00.280 --> 0:56:04.839 and what we care about and how we nourish them 0:56:05.040 --> 0:56:08.920 so that we can be more ourselves and other people 0:56:09.000 --> 0:56:12.160 can be more in themselves, and that we can do 0:56:12.360 --> 0:56:14.120 the healing work that we can do. 0:56:14.320 --> 0:56:19.560 In this line, that might be my favorite definition of 0:56:19.680 --> 0:56:26.719 hope so far. I have grammatical and etymological issues with 0:56:26.800 --> 0:56:28.719 the actual word hope, but you know, you just brought 0:56:28.800 --> 0:56:30.920 up something that I hadn't thought about before, is that 0:56:32.520 --> 0:56:38.280 hope is not now, Hope is future. Hope is for something. 0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:43.680 As you said, that things are different, but that aspect 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:47.920 of you're living in the future when you're hoping and 0:56:48.040 --> 0:56:49.480 what is important is right now. 0:56:50.600 --> 0:56:51.320 I really dig that. 0:56:51.480 --> 0:56:54.040 I am definitely taking that one with me forward from 0:56:54.080 --> 0:56:56.359 this conversation. I know we rock. 0:56:57.360 --> 0:57:01.280 It's all yours, Megan, Thank you. Take it away. 0:57:01.960 --> 0:57:03.879 I'm taking it. I'm taking it. And you know, after 0:57:03.960 --> 0:57:05.759 we come back from the last break, obviously, I'm going 0:57:05.800 --> 0:57:07.239 to have some words to say about it, because that's 0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:09.720 what we do here. I close up with my beloved 0:57:09.800 --> 0:57:11.239 guests and then we go to break, and then I 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:13.440 come back and I talk about WHOA. That was amazing, 0:57:13.560 --> 0:57:17.920 wasn't it. So that's what's going to happen next. And 0:57:19.920 --> 0:57:22.720 we're going to link to you and the Zen Center 0:57:22.760 --> 0:57:24.480 and your books and all of the things in the 0:57:24.560 --> 0:57:28.440 show notes and as we close up here, what do 0:57:28.560 --> 0:57:31.840 you want people to know? A sort of a partying 0:57:32.080 --> 0:57:34.320 message for this episode, but also like where can we 0:57:34.400 --> 0:57:37.800 find you? Where should they interact with you? All of 0:57:37.880 --> 0:57:38.400 those things. 0:57:39.560 --> 0:57:42.680 So our center call is called the New York Sun 0:57:42.760 --> 0:57:47.440 Center for Contemplative Care, and the website is zencare dot org. 0:57:47.640 --> 0:57:52.960 So keeping with Mammy Schwartz's memory, bringing those two things together, 0:57:54.280 --> 0:58:00.280 and my own instagram is kachin Pale Allison, and we 0:58:00.720 --> 0:58:04.520 have lots of opportunities for people to practice with us. 0:58:04.680 --> 0:58:08.240 We have a ninety day practice period that begins actually 0:58:08.360 --> 0:58:12.840 in January, and that's an opportunity to really dig into 0:58:13.000 --> 0:58:18.240 and build a practice of meditation. And we have sixteen 0:58:18.320 --> 0:58:24.560 beautiful teachers and it's just really gorgeous. And two things 0:58:24.640 --> 0:58:27.360 that I always like to share. One is called Foundations 0:58:27.440 --> 0:58:31.040 and Contemplative Care. So it's a nine month training for 0:58:31.360 --> 0:58:34.640 anyone who's interested in that gap and how do I 0:58:34.720 --> 0:58:38.720 bring my practice my spiritual practice of some kind or 0:58:38.800 --> 0:58:42.280 build a spiritual practice and learn how to serve and 0:58:42.440 --> 0:58:46.440 be intimate. And so that's available for anybody and for 0:58:47.520 --> 0:58:53.880 nurse practitioners and physician assistants and physicians. We have this gorgeous, 0:58:54.880 --> 0:58:59.000 a year long contemplative medicine fellowship that with some of 0:58:59.120 --> 0:59:04.960 the some gorgeous faculty and really meaningful work to do. 0:59:05.400 --> 0:59:07.959 And so those are some things that could be helped. 0:59:08.480 --> 0:59:10.720 And the book again, and the. 0:59:10.840 --> 0:59:16.840 New book is called Untangled Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, 0:59:17.200 --> 0:59:18.080 and Compassion. 0:59:19.040 --> 0:59:22.520 Yes, and get that book, everybody, find it wherever you 0:59:22.680 --> 0:59:24.720 get your books. And I'm also going to link in 0:59:24.800 --> 0:59:29.640 the show notes. During season one, quoshin end Choto came 0:59:29.720 --> 0:59:32.640 on and talked about their oh my gosh, oh my god, 0:59:32.680 --> 0:59:35.080 I just totally got a complete Yeah. They came on 0:59:35.160 --> 0:59:40.760 and talked about love No No No, the the contemporative 0:59:40.840 --> 0:59:43.680 care training program for healthcare providers. We talked about that 0:59:43.800 --> 0:59:46.520 at length during our season one episode, so we will 0:59:46.600 --> 0:59:50.320 link to that. All right, everybody, I'm going to close 0:59:50.480 --> 0:59:53.959 up our conversation here and we'll be right back after 0:59:54.080 --> 0:59:57.640 this break. Obviously, you're going to hear about the things 0:59:57.680 --> 0:59:59.920 I'm carrying with me and the things I would love 1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:12.160 to hear that you took from this episode. Each week, 1:00:12.280 --> 1:00:14.080 I leave you with some questions to carry with you 1:00:14.360 --> 1:00:17.959 until we meet again. Now this season has a running theme, 1:00:18.120 --> 1:00:20.440 and it's more obvious in some episodes than others. This 1:00:20.560 --> 1:00:24.520 season is all about hope, finding it, losing it, redefining it, 1:00:24.840 --> 1:00:28.440 and fighting for it in these weird personal and collective times. 1:00:29.600 --> 1:00:31.439 So you know, what really struck me in my talk 1:00:31.480 --> 1:00:34.720 with Koshin is one like how often we look to 1:00:34.960 --> 1:00:37.520 spiritual tools to somehow lift us out of the pain 1:00:37.560 --> 1:00:41.800 we're in, and how spiritual practices are often weaponized, right like, 1:00:42.200 --> 1:00:45.760 if you just motitate more, everything will be fine. What 1:00:45.920 --> 1:00:49.200 I love about Koshin is that he does give you 1:00:49.280 --> 1:00:52.320 a way forward. He does help you reduce your suffering, 1:00:53.160 --> 1:00:56.040 but he never asks you to pretend that things don't hurt. 1:00:57.200 --> 1:01:01.320 I also really really liked what he said about hope 1:01:01.480 --> 1:01:03.880 at the end there that he has an issue with hope. 1:01:03.920 --> 1:01:05.439 I mean, first of all, there's a reason we're friends. 1:01:05.480 --> 1:01:07.040 We both have issues with the word hope. But I 1:01:07.160 --> 1:01:10.760 love that he said hope is always a future issue 1:01:10.880 --> 1:01:14.920 and he's more interested in right now. I love that 1:01:16.640 --> 1:01:19.320 what parts of the conversation today made you see things 1:01:19.440 --> 1:01:22.560 in a different way or just feel a tiny bit 1:01:22.680 --> 1:01:27.080 better in the moment that you're in. Everybody's going to 1:01:27.120 --> 1:01:29.200 take something different from today's show, but I do hope 1:01:29.240 --> 1:01:33.120 you found something to hold on to. There are lots 1:01:33.120 --> 1:01:35.800 of ways to open these conversations on everyday grief and 1:01:35.880 --> 1:01:38.360 how we survive the things that happen to us, and 1:01:38.520 --> 1:01:41.040 we definitely want to hear from you on all of 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:43.880 these things. What are you holding onto you right now? 1:01:46.120 --> 1:01:48.040 If you like the show, please leave a review on 1:01:48.120 --> 1:01:51.120 Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Share the show with 1:01:51.200 --> 1:01:54.600 your friends and your colleagues. These are the conversations that 1:01:54.800 --> 1:01:57.520 so many of us long for in our daily lives 1:01:57.560 --> 1:01:59.720 and just don't always have the opportunity to have them. 1:02:00.280 --> 1:02:03.080 Sharing the show makes it just that much easier to 1:02:03.200 --> 1:02:08.680 have that kind of connection. Thanks, friends. Grief education doesn't 1:02:08.720 --> 1:02:11.240 just belong to end of life issues. As my dad says, 1:02:11.400 --> 1:02:13.479 daily life is full of everyday grief that we don't 1:02:13.520 --> 1:02:16.200 call grief. Learning how to talk about all of that 1:02:16.320 --> 1:02:20.680 without cliches or platitudes or simplistic dismissive statements is an 1:02:20.720 --> 1:02:24.480 important skill for everyone, especially if you're in any of 1:02:24.520 --> 1:02:29.560 the helping professions. Hereafter with Megan Divine is written and 1:02:29.640 --> 1:02:33.720 produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, 1:02:34.040 --> 1:02:37.680 co produced by Elizabeth Fozzio. Logistical and social media support 1:02:37.720 --> 1:02:41.480 by Micah, edited by Houston Tilly, and music provided by 1:02:41.520 --> 1:02:47.360 Wave Crush. Background Noise Today provided by the leaf Blowers.