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Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'she.

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Speaker 2: I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years,

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Speaker 2: living undercover all around the world.

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Speaker 3: And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I

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Speaker 3: served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we

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Speaker 2: created conspiracies.

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Speaker 3: In our operations. We got people to believe things that

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Speaker 3: weren't true.

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Speaker 2: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the

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Speaker 2: news almost every day.

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Speaker 3: Will break them down for you to determine whether they

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Speaker 3: could be real or whether we're being manipulated.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Mission Implausible.

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Speaker 3: So this is the first episode after the election results,

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Speaker 3: and I don't know, John Adam, I'm shocked at the

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Speaker 3: fact that the one candidate declared victory and has launched

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Speaker 3: over sixty court cases to try to overturn this. And

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Speaker 3: there are people are armed and marching on the Capitol.

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Speaker 3: And isn't that what's going on?

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Speaker 4: No, I mean, what's amazing is how well run the

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Speaker 4: election was. Nobody's questioning the results.

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Speaker 3: That was the last election. This is the way an

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Speaker 3: election should be run. I may not like the outcome,

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Speaker 3: or you may like the outcome, But no conspiracy theories

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Speaker 3: this time. Why is that?

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Speaker 4: It's an obvious point, but conspiracy theories are not about

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Speaker 4: truth seeking. They are a tool to achieve certain ends and.

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Speaker 3: Who uses them and who does it. And at this

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Speaker 3: particular point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a little let down that the Democrats put

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Speaker 2: together a full plan to steal the last election and

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Speaker 2: then apparently just forgot to do it, forgot to do

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Speaker 2: it this time. Maybe they didn't pay their bills or

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Speaker 2: some kind of stuff.

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Speaker 3: It was a fair election, got to say that, and

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Speaker 3: the votes were counted fairly, and as far as we

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Speaker 3: can tell, Russia, China and the others didn't have a

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Speaker 3: huge least overt impact on the certainly tried.

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Speaker 2: They were calling in bomb threats to the Democratic.

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Speaker 3: But there wasn't like Rudy Giuliani coming in ten days

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Speaker 3: before the election and saying he's got the goods on

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Speaker 3: the other candidate to show that they are criminals and

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Speaker 3: then not producing the evidence. This time around, they neither

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Speaker 3: side really engaged in that, and that was maybe a

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Speaker 3: small slid of bright light.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't hold onto that too tightly because all of

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Speaker 4: that can, like all of that can bounce back pretty quickly.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I eat those words pretty soon.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, yeah, the last time people observed that a

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Speaker 4: lot of the folks calling foul on the election had

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Speaker 4: been elected in that same election and didn't seem to

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Speaker 4: want to redo their own elections. On the long list

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Speaker 4: of things I don't understand, one of them is the

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Speaker 4: nature of truth. Like not in some philosophical there is

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Speaker 4: no truth, but in a just very basic here are

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Speaker 4: facts that are undeniable way. It's not just it doesn't

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Speaker 4: penetrate or people don't have the right information. It's this

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Speaker 4: idea that truth is just not relevant. And I think

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Speaker 4: there's no way all of these groups who voted for

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Speaker 4: Trump want all the things that Trump says he's going

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Speaker 4: to bring, since they contradict each other. Right, decisions are

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Speaker 4: being made for reasons that are not rational. I mean,

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Speaker 4: this is an obvious point. This is how the human

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Speaker 4: brain works. But I think the value of studying conspiracy

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Speaker 4: theories are one value of sudden conspiracy theories if you

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Speaker 4: think of it as like, how do I compose a

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Speaker 4: bunch of words to paint a picture of how the

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Speaker 4: world works that satisfies something that has nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with truth or not truth or a description of the

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Speaker 4: world or not, it's some other thing. It's about power.

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Speaker 4: It's about making yourself feel better or making yourself feel bad,

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Speaker 4: but feel bad about a particular person. Like it's somehow

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Speaker 4: different from a thing of Oh, let me evaluate what

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Speaker 4: happened in the world. Let me list a bunch of facts,

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Speaker 4: and then let me come to some conclusion about it.

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Speaker 1: It's a whole different process.

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Speaker 2: It's creating a mental model that fits you what you want,

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Speaker 2: and then things fit into that and stuff that doesn't

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Speaker 2: just rolls off you. We all do that to a

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Speaker 2: certain extent.

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Speaker 3: We can almost predict what the conspiracy theories to tom

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Speaker 3: are going to be. If you round up millions of

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Speaker 3: people who are plucking chickens and cleaning the streets and

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Speaker 3: doing construction and picking crops for minimum wage or less

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Speaker 3: and can't replace them, food prices are going to go up, right,

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Speaker 3: and you're going to get inflation. And so you say, oh,

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Speaker 3: that's our fault that in tariffs. You have to come

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Speaker 3: up with a conspiracy theory as to why somehow the

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Speaker 3: Democrats or your opposition is responsible for this.

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Speaker 2: Right So, what you're saying is is the right wing

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Speaker 2: is it going to become the left wing, and they're

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Speaker 2: going to say that that's the big corporations that are gouging.

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Speaker 2: This might turn the whole country around.

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Speaker 3: I think conspiracy theories allow you to explain the world

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Speaker 3: in a way that you don't have to take responsibility for.

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Speaker 4: I remember dealing with somebody who is an alcoholic and realizing, oh,

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Speaker 4: denial isn't some super complicated psychological process. It's just here's

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Speaker 4: an obvious fact, let me deny it. So can I ask?

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Speaker 3: You?

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Speaker 4: Know, Trump in his first term did not have the

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Speaker 4: easiest relationship with the CIA. What do you think the

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Speaker 4: vibe is at CIA right now?

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Speaker 3: I think it is inescapable that our relationship with NATO

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Speaker 3: and Ukraine is going to be different and certainly strained

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Speaker 3: in our relationships with our allies, and I think CIA

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Speaker 3: is going to struggle with that as well as our

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Speaker 3: State Department colleague.

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Speaker 4: Has there ever been a president who's been so hostile

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Speaker 4: to CIA, so openly, has said such critical things about

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Speaker 4: the intelligence community, been so dismissive.

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Speaker 2: Well, he did that last time. He was pretty negative

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Speaker 2: towards the intelligence community. We've mentioned a number of the

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Speaker 2: ways before, but in some sense, the CIA, for example,

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Speaker 2: or the Intelligent Committee were able to keep themselves out

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Speaker 2: of the regular daily political fighting at the White House,

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Speaker 2: and I think they protected themselves with it, and they

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Speaker 2: might have been more careful about bringing in what He

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Speaker 2: didn't want to hear, those kind of things which slowly

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Speaker 2: over time hurt the professionalism of the organization. The concern

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Speaker 2: now in what they're talking about is they want to

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Speaker 2: put like true Trump believers in a position to make

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Speaker 2: the organization, not just CIA, but probably the FBI and

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Speaker 2: just Department of other places, to be essentially openly partisan,

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Speaker 2: to work for Trump. Their job is to dig through material,

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Speaker 2: find stuff that benefits him, get it to Trump, over time,

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Speaker 2: change some of the regulations to weaponize as he can

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Speaker 2: use it against his politicetical, or personal enemies. The intelligence

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Speaker 2: community has been over the last decades slowly reforming itself,

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Speaker 2: and by the time when Jerry and I were there,

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Speaker 2: it was a very professional, non partisan group. We took

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Speaker 2: great pride in speaking truth to power, and we realized

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Speaker 2: that we were restrained by congressional and Justice Department oversight

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Speaker 2: such that and we saw ourselves as a professional working for

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Speaker 2: the American people, not working for political party or whatever.

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Speaker 2: And if it changes, it's really going to be difficult.

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Speaker 2: There's gonna be lots of people officers inside the CAA

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Speaker 2: who are probably Republicans or even supported Trump, but they

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Speaker 2: still believe in that ethos that the organization should not

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Speaker 2: be partisan. And if it's going to be made head

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Speaker 2: and ly partisan, I think it's gonna be a real problem.

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Speaker 2: You can see a lot of people leave. Our hope

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Speaker 2: is that it just doesn't get degraded to the point

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Speaker 2: where it's unfixable.

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Speaker 3: But the real danger is that it turns into a

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Speaker 3: partisan organization. You know, they should be careful what they create,

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Speaker 3: because if they create, if they go on to people's

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Speaker 3: social media, you know, senior agency officers and only take

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Speaker 3: those in who are Republican, four years later, there's going

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Speaker 3: to be a change and all those people are going

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Speaker 3: to be out, and the Democrats are going to do

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Speaker 3: the same thing, and we'll have a sort of I

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Speaker 3: guess a right to do so. John's really right. We've

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Speaker 3: created an intelligence community that's a political and that does

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Speaker 3: its job and answers questions that policymakers need to at

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Speaker 3: least be informed about whether they do the right thing

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Speaker 3: or not. Is up to them, and I think that

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Speaker 3: is really the danger with Trump, not only with the

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Speaker 3: intelligence community, but probably more importantly with law enforcement, DOJFBI

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Speaker 3: and so forth. That's I think one of the greatest fears.

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Speaker 2: We look back to the Nixon time period and before

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Speaker 2: and JAGR hoovert FBI. We look back at those places

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Speaker 2: now at times and realize that using those organizations for

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Speaker 2: personal vendettas the FBI was going after Martin Luther King,

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Speaker 2: they were doing essentially illegal break ins and listening to

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Speaker 2: people's phones. The CIA was overthrowing governments without full congressional oversight,

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Speaker 2: all those kind of things. Those days are gone, and

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Speaker 2: with good reason over time that the publics are turned

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Speaker 2: against the view that these organizations where their power could

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Speaker 2: be used against us. There's been people who claim snowed

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Speaker 2: new who defected and gave out information claiming that he

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Speaker 2: was listening to people's phones and all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't true. Our organizations are pretty focused on foreign intelligence,

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Speaker 2: not on Americans. But they are really powerful organizations, and

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Speaker 2: if they are used and turned against American people that

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Speaker 2: the president or the administration considers enemies, these are incredibly

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Speaker 2: powerful organizations that can cause great problems.

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Speaker 4: For there's also just basic competence like it. You know,

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Speaker 4: I think of Iraq like that first year in Iraq

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Speaker 4: rather famously the Coalition Provisional Authority, the US presence in

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Speaker 4: Iraq was staffed by a ton of Republican operatives and

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Speaker 4: the children of Republican operatives. There were all these like

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Speaker 4: kids in their twenties.

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Speaker 3: As a twenty eight year old kid who was trying

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Speaker 3: to build the Iraqi basically the Iraqi stock market, and

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Speaker 3: you know, no surprise it failed.

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Speaker 1: That is a false statement.

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Speaker 4: He was twenty three and I spent some time with.

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Speaker 3: Him being fit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it really was stunning because it was people. You know,

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Speaker 4: there are a whole bunch of things went into it,

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Speaker 4: including the fantasy that they could decapitate. You know, they'll

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Speaker 4: just put someone in charge of the oil ministry and

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Speaker 4: then this massive complex bureaucracy will just function the same

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Speaker 4: as it used to. But it was a very young

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Speaker 4: team and none almost no, maybe zero Arabic speakers. I

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Speaker 4: had a friend who was a career diplomat.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: We took over Baghdad in May of two thousand and three,

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Speaker 4: and this guy came in August. He says he was

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Speaker 4: the only Arabic speaker he knew in the CPA, and

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Speaker 4: he would start each morning's American Guy, lifelong diplomat. He

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Speaker 4: would start each morning with a bunch of Arabic newspapers

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Speaker 4: so he could see what's going on. And several people.

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Speaker 1: Said, why are you reading that stuff? What are you

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Speaker 1: one of them?

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Speaker 4: Like that kind of thing, And there is and I

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Speaker 4: think you saw this with Hitler, you saw it with

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Speaker 4: Saddam himself, that staffing people for political willingness to be

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Speaker 4: co opted is the opposite staffing people for skills, so

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Speaker 4: you just also have incredible incompetence. The people who will

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Speaker 4: do that don't tend to be our best.

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Speaker 2: That's what our government did in the nineteenth century and

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Speaker 2: early twentieth century is a political job was a job

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Speaker 2: where you could give out positions and jobs to friends

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Speaker 2: for your own personal purposes. So it wasn't a professional

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Speaker 2: bureaucracy you had. It was essentially just handing out jobs.

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Speaker 2: And it sounds like that's what they want to go

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Speaker 2: back to.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's important to state that at the

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Speaker 3: very bottom of this the whole reason for weaponization that's

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Speaker 3: given and I've argued with family members about this is

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Speaker 3: either a lie or a conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory

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Speaker 3: is that the Biden administration that they had weaponized DOJ

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Speaker 3: to go after Donald Trump. So there's two options here.

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Speaker 3: Option A is that a guy who's cheated on his wife,

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Speaker 3: whose charitable organizations turned out to be scams, who ran

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Speaker 3: a scam university, r on sketchy casinos, that he engaged

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Speaker 3: in illegal activity and no one's above the law. Or

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Speaker 3: B it's a huge conspiracy theory of thousands of people

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Speaker 3: to include like jury members and grand juries to convict

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Speaker 3: an innocent man, and that the weaponization has already begun.

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Speaker 3: I think it's B. I think any rational person would say,

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Speaker 3: the guy broke the law, you got a fair trial,

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Speaker 3: he was found guilty. He's not getting a feld trial

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Speaker 3: for these other things like stealing documents, which should be

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Speaker 3: an open enclosed case. But the justification for using this

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Speaker 3: now is that we didn't start it, and it's like,

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Speaker 3: you know, either he committed crimes and he's out above

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Speaker 3: the law, or B it's a huge conspiracy theory.

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Speaker 4: All right, we're going to get right back into that,

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Speaker 4: but first let's hear this John you ran You're in

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Speaker 4: Moscow for many years for CIA, you ran the Russia

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Speaker 4: desk at CIA headquarters, Like, how could that be different?

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Speaker 4: Under an administration that either in the most benign sense

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Speaker 4: sends out a message we don't see Russia as a

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Speaker 4: strategy a top of the list strategic threat anymore, or

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Speaker 4: a less benign like we want to really help Russia

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Speaker 4: with their aims and goals, or see we want to

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Speaker 4: make a corp ton of money and embarrass our friends

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Speaker 4: and stuff, Like.

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Speaker 1: How does that work? Within CIA?

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Speaker 2: These organizations are in the executive branch and work for

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Speaker 2: the president. So if in fact, US foreign policy writ

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Speaker 2: large by a president by an administration professionally pushed through,

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Speaker 2: is changed so that Russia is meant to be our friend,

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Speaker 2: we will change. We have sources that are providing us information.

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Speaker 2: If those sources are providing us real information, we will

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Speaker 2: try to keep those sources, even if they're telling us

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Speaker 2: things we don't want to hear. We take great pride

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Speaker 2: in the fact that we may get information that presidents

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Speaker 2: and things don't want to hear, but that doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: Our job is to find what's truth. If it turns

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Speaker 2: out that information is something that the White House really

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Speaker 2: doesn't want to hear either we'll turn it off or

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Speaker 2: we just want for that information up.

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Speaker 1: And if foreign.

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Speaker 2: Policy changes, then yeah, we'll try to work with the Russians.

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Speaker 2: We already do have a professional relationship with them. We'll

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Speaker 2: share counter terrorst information and other kinds of things. And

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Speaker 2: the US changes and allies all the time. But it's

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Speaker 2: crazy as is. But I think the bigger threat, frankly,

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Speaker 2: is that turning against our allies or creating an impression

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Speaker 2: around the world to all of these places that take

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Speaker 2: their own secrets very seriously. And because of decades and

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Speaker 2: decades of close relationships working with the United States, working

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Speaker 2: with the CA, working with our officers that live there

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Speaker 2: night and day for year after year, that will share

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Speaker 2: sensitive information with US countries, you don't even think about

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Speaker 2: that we have these relationships with that maybe even aren't

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Speaker 2: the allies that you're thinking of, share very sensitive information

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Speaker 2: with us, and we sometimes help them and find ways

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Speaker 2: to find mutual places we could work together if those

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Speaker 2: places think that we can't be trusted with information because

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Speaker 2: when information gets to the White House, it's just on

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Speaker 2: sale to the highest bidder, or that we're no longer

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Speaker 2: a professional security service that keeps our secrets, or that

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Speaker 2: the President of the United States is disparaging allies and friends

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Speaker 2: from giving us things. They just won't do it. They'll

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Speaker 2: still smile and we'll have drinks together and we'll chat.

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Speaker 2: But when it comes time to saying, hey, let's share

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Speaker 2: with the Americans this information we found out about this

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Speaker 2: terrorist group, or this shipment of arms going from here

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Speaker 2: to there, what have you, they're just not going to

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Speaker 2: share it. And I've told people before a good seventy

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Speaker 2: to eighty percent of the secrets that the Clandestine Service

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Speaker 2: gets are from partners around the world that share stuff

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Speaker 2: with US, and we spent years and decades building those

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Speaker 2: relationships so that they share stuff that is very sensitive

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Speaker 2: to them.

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Speaker 3: I'll give you a secret, not really. It's directly from

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Speaker 3: the newspapers just a couple of days ago, and the

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Speaker 3: US air security folks are saying that it's true. Is

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Speaker 3: that Russia was looking for I assume Russian gau is

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Speaker 3: looking for ways to put incendiary devices into airplanes heading

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Speaker 3: for the US. They're going to like bring down airplanes

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Speaker 3: full of US people. And that was serendipitously. The devices

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Speaker 3: were mailed from Lithuania, and the guys who mailed them

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Speaker 3: have been arrested. And these are Russian proxies. And fortunately

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Speaker 3: they both went off and exploded when airplane had landed,

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Speaker 3: one and I think in Germany and the other in

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Speaker 3: the UK. So we got lucky on this. But in

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Speaker 3: order to make this work, and in order to protect ourselves,

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Speaker 3: to keep our airplanes from being blown out of the sky,

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Speaker 3: we need the Lithuanians, we need the Poles, we need

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Speaker 3: the Germans, we need the British. We can't do it

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Speaker 3: by ourselves. And the true genius of American diploonacy at

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Speaker 3: the end of World War two is that we build

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Speaker 3: a system of alliances at Europe and in Asia, and

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Speaker 3: Russia has zero allies. It only has people who are

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Speaker 3: afraid of an Turkey. Yeah, but they're completely true. Yeah, Syria,

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Speaker 3: there's an ally until sod dies and then they don't

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Speaker 3: have an Ala anymore.

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Speaker 1: Ron neither, that's a good one.

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Speaker 3: They don't even have Mongolia, and neither does China. And

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Speaker 3: so the US we actually have a robust set of alliances.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, it's messy and it's difficult. They don't always

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Speaker 3: come through, they don't always paying off via true all

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Speaker 3: of that. I was there in Afghanistan after nine to

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Speaker 3: eleven and they were like frigging Mongolian troops there, Lithuanians

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Speaker 3: and land fans who fought with our troops. And that's

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Speaker 3: not going to happen if, as John says, if we

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Speaker 3: start screwing with them or you know, basically go isolationists

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Speaker 3: and then say they're on their own, and that would

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Speaker 3: be shocked when we're on our own.

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Speaker 2: One of our other episodes, we were talking about the

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Speaker 2: JFK assassination, and there's some information that has come out,

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Speaker 2: and we were using the example that some of the

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Speaker 2: CIA documents that have not come out publicly. We're respecting

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Speaker 2: that some of that is because foreign services and foreign

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Speaker 2: friends have shared stuff with us that we promise to

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Speaker 2: keep secret forever. So it's not that it's we're hiding

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Speaker 2: stuff that we don't want to come out about the assassination.

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Speaker 2: It's that you name your country gave us stuff that

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Speaker 2: hurts them. And Jerry brought up a concrete example that

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Speaker 2: were apparently the Mexican I don't remember the maximum President

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Speaker 2: of Mexican head of the service actually gave us information

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Speaker 2: that they had collected illegally in their own country and

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Speaker 2: shared it with the United States. Those relationships are so strong.

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Speaker 2: They said, listen, I'm giving you something that could get

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Speaker 2: me arrested in my own country. It's against my countries

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Speaker 2: if I'm giving it to you because we have this relationship,

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Speaker 2: and of course we promise to keep that secret forever.

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Speaker 2: We didn't. It sounds in this case, but in general

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Speaker 2: we try to do that and people just aren't going

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Speaker 2: to be doing that in the future.

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Speaker 4: Journalists love to quit in protest when an editor intervenes,

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Speaker 4: what like would you imagine massed affection from CIA, like

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Speaker 4: people just quitting and refusing go along with it and

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Speaker 4: a different cohort coming in, or is it hey, our

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Speaker 4: job is to do what the president asks. President says

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Speaker 4: Russia as our friends, well.

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Speaker 3: Senior people who've got their pension, I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of them will say I'm leaving. So you know, at

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Speaker 3: fifty we get to the baseline pension and you can

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Speaker 3: it's a good time to leave. And people because they

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Speaker 3: love the job and they're committed, stay longer and they

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Speaker 3: use their expertise. I suspect that a lot of younger

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Speaker 3: people will just like other places, they'll go into internal legs.

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Speaker 3: I yeah, I'll pretend to work you pay me. I

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Speaker 3: think that would be become less professional and less hard hitting.

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Speaker 3: If you're not taken seriously, or if you feel you're

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Speaker 3: being used, I think there would be some people who

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Speaker 3: will leave. But loyalty in a sense commitment. I mean

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Speaker 3: speak for John, but almost all of us. You don't

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Speaker 3: pay us enough to take our families to places where

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Speaker 3: there's disease and poisonous snakes and poor health care and

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Speaker 3: your wife can't have a baby there. But we go

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Speaker 3: because we believe that what we're doing is the right thing.

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Speaker 3: And if we don't believe that anymore, people aren't going

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Speaker 3: to do it, or they're not going to go. They're

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Speaker 3: not going to be willing to go to war zones anymore.

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Speaker 3: I left a wife and three kids, and you know what,

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Speaker 3: with two days notice, jumped on an airplane to fly

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Speaker 3: off in Afghanistan and O two because I believed in

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Speaker 3: it right. But if I thought I'm being I'm sorry,

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Speaker 3: I thought I was being fucked with, or I'm being

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Speaker 3: used as a political pond. No, I'm going to think

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Speaker 3: twice about that. So I think younger people will tend

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Speaker 3: to stay, but commitment will disappear, professional will disappear, and

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Speaker 3: some of the older folks will just say goodbye.

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Speaker 2: But it is fun to be in the know. I

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Speaker 2: mean being in the CI and finding out the sort

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Speaker 2: of secrets. I saw one that finally came out publicly

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Speaker 2: about the North Korean troops that were sent from North

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Speaker 2: Korea for the first time ever to fight on behalf

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Speaker 2: of Russia. And some secret information has come out that

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Speaker 2: the North Korean troops, being in Russia for the first

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Speaker 2: time where they had access to the internet, had become

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Speaker 2: hooked on porn after being allowed unfettered access to the

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Speaker 2: Internet for the first time. That's the kind of cool

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Speaker 2: information you can't yeh wow.

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Speaker 3: So you wouldn't quit, And I'll give you something exact

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Speaker 3: opposite of that. That's a great example. So there was

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Speaker 3: a very there was a very senior agency officer who

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Speaker 3: came in and it was a political appointee. So one

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Speaker 3: of the top guys and another a group of professional

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Speaker 3: officers met him and he says, Okay, let's have a meeting.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about what we're doing and why we're doing it.

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Speaker 3: But before we do, I want everyone to hold hands

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Speaker 3: and we'll have a prayer. And the prayer was it

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Speaker 3: was very skewed towards one particular, very evangelical denomination. And

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Speaker 3: I'm standing there and I'm thinking, there's a Mormon in

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Speaker 3: this group, there are two Muslims here, there's a Jew,

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Speaker 3: and a bunch of Catholics, and all of them are going,

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Speaker 3: what the fuck. I'm not doing this for like your

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Speaker 3: version of God, right, I'm doing this for the Constitution

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Speaker 3: of the United States. What binds us together is not

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Speaker 3: this evangelical prayer about how Jesus died for my sins

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Speaker 3: and you can't be saved unless you're washed again in

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Speaker 3: the spirit, in my particular version of events. And afterwards

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Speaker 3: people say it around and I'm like, I don't like this.

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Speaker 3: This isn't what we do. And if that becomes the

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Speaker 3: culture of the place, or even in a political sense,

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Speaker 3: I think it's really harmful to what we stand for.

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Speaker 4: On the plus side, though, they are all going to hell,

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Speaker 4: and he did give them a shot at not going

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Speaker 4: to hell if they chose not to take thoughts on.

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Speaker 1: That, and we'll be right back. It's not to be coy.

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Speaker 1: None of us like him.

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Speaker 4: We all see him as very dangerous, But where are

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Speaker 4: you on the All Right, this is gonna be a

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Speaker 4: really rough four years, but we'll get through it too.

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Speaker 4: This might be a fun mental strategic shift in our

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Speaker 4: national security that will last generations.

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Speaker 2: Well, in a practical sense, one of the things that's

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Speaker 2: already started to happen is is some people I know

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Speaker 2: who are reaching out, who are interested in applying to

439
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 2: the intelligence community, the State Department, or reaching out and

440
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 2: saying should I still do it? Because you can imagine

441
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 2: now that it's out there, there's people who it's a

442
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 2: long process, a lot of security polygraphs, background checks that

443
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 2: can take a year more to get in to one

444
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 2: of these organizations. And as you can imagine, a lot

445
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 2: of people come to us and say, you know, what's

446
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 2: it like. And already people are coming saying I'm in

447
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 2: the process of applying now that I see Trump's going

448
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 2: to be in, I don't know if I can work

449
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 2: for that. And so I've been giving the advice so far,

450
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 2: and as we're only a couple of days into this,

451
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,359
Speaker 2: is that these organizations need good people. They need good young,

452
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 2: talented people. You don't want to just give up and

453
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 2: assume it's going to be bad and just give over

454
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 2: the place to the partisans and anyone that just want

455
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 2: to bring in. When you're young, you're still learning the

456
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 2: learning the rule US, you're learning languages, you're preparing to go,

457
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 2: you're learning background. You know, you really aren't engaged with

458
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 2: anything partisan or political or senior like that. So you know,

459
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: I've been telling people, I think you should still continue

460
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 2: to try to go there. But I have some other

461
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 2: friends that are getting the same questions and saying the opposite, saying, listen,

462
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 2: if they have too much far of a partisan leader

463
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 2: and they're going to try to turn these organizations into

464
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 2: something that we didn't plan to join, you should think

465
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 2: twice and not perhaps go work for the State Department

466
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,640
Speaker 2: or the CIA, or the FBI or what.

467
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 4: You and we should say, this is not us floating

468
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,400
Speaker 4: conspiracy theories like there's an explicit overt plan or multiple plans,

469
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 4: like even before Project twenty twenty five, although it's very

470
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 4: much in Project twenty twenty five. The idea of increasing

471
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 4: the number of people throughout the administration, but especially in

472
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 4: the intelligence and law enforcement areas, to increase the number

473
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 4: of them who are politically loyal is an explicit goal

474
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 4: that's not us making that up.

475
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 1: That is an explicit goal.

476
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 3: So I think this is really tiara incognita here. We

477
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,160
Speaker 3: don't really know. So on the one hand, if if

478
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 3: you listen to what is being said and what they're saying,

479
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 3: they're going to do, militarization of the border, militarization of

480
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 3: law enforcement, the politicization of civil service, throwing out millions

481
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 3: of people who are gainfully employed, huge tariffs, recalibrating NATO,

482
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 3: perhaps abandoning Ukraine. If you see all these things, you're like,

483
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 3: holy shit. But on the other hand, these are the

484
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 3: sort of this is the same guy who said he

485
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 3: was going to build a wall and have Mexico pay

486
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 3: for it, and so he was like, if they only

487
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 3: do half of it, how bad will it be? And

488
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 3: the answer is, we don't really know, because we don't

489
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 3: really know what he really means. And more to the point,

490
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 3: I think what the people around him intend to do

491
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: and what they're going to be able to do, and

492
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 3: whatever guard wheels are left, what they're going to be

493
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 3: able to hold back.

494
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: But indicators are not good at this point. When you're

495
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 2: talking about putting RFK Junior in charge of our entire

496
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 2: health system, and people like Mike Flynn and Kash Patel

497
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 2: and these said, these are not serious people. These are

498
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 2: conspiracy theorists who said horrible things. In the first administration,

499
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: there was people Radcliffe and Grenelle and others who clearly

500
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: tried to use their positions to cherry pick material and

501
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 2: try to get information from intelligent community that they could

502
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 2: use to help President Trump get reelected. These type of

503
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 2: things which goes against our ethics and our way of

504
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: doing things, and it created problems. But if you're going

505
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 2: to bring in people that are even far less professional

506
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: than those people were, it's.

507
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: A real danger.

508
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 4: So super fun show, guys, really uplifting and it's i

509
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 4: will say, really good time to keep listening to a

510
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 4: podcast about conspiracy theories. We're gonna have a lot to

511
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 4: talk about.

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Speaker 5: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'sha, John Ceipher,

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00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 5: and Jonathan Stern.

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00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: The associate producer is Rachel Harner.

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Speaker 5: Mission Implausible It's a production of honorable mention and abominable

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Speaker 5: Pictures for iHeart Podcasts. Oh