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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Blots podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe Wisenthal.

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Speaker 2: Joe, the week's not over.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're recording this November sixth at ten point thirty

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Speaker 3: three am. But one thing that is over is a

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Speaker 3: lot of people expected that at this point there would

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Speaker 3: be significant ambiguity about who had won the election, and

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Speaker 3: actually that part is over. There's no ambiguity at all.

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Speaker 2: It's been called Yeah, that's right. So Trump has obviously

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Speaker 2: won the election, and we've seen a pretty big market reaction.

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Speaker 2: Equities obviously up, but also bond yields are going up,

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Speaker 2: which means prices are going down. And there's been lots

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Speaker 2: of talk about the return of volatility in the bond

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Speaker 2: market and the way investors or traders were sort of

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Speaker 2: approaching event risk from this election. I wrote about it

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Speaker 2: in the newsletter. There are other people who have been

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Speaker 2: writing about it, and of course, as I said, the

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Speaker 2: week isn't over yet. We still have that FED meeting

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Speaker 2: on Thursday.

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Speaker 1: No, that's right.

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Speaker 3: You know you mentioned the event risk and the stock

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Speaker 3: market rally and the bond move and I would say

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Speaker 3: two things. I think there is probably just sort of

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Speaker 3: generically probably a view among equity investors that Trump europolicies,

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Speaker 3: probably less regulation, lower corporate taxes is good for stocks.

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Speaker 3: That seems like something. On the other hand, it's interesting

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Speaker 3: because the VICS has absolutely collapsed, and so I think

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Speaker 3: part of the reason perhaps for this at least some

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Speaker 3: component of this stock market reaction is probably just the

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Speaker 3: end of that election, certainty being gone, the unambiguous outcome,

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Speaker 3: and setting aside Trump versus Harris policies. Now, on the

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Speaker 3: other hand, what's interesting is the move index, which may

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Speaker 3: you know, like the great of the that's lower, but

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Speaker 3: not dramatically lower, and it still remains at very high levels,

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Speaker 3: at least relative to recent years, or at least over

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Speaker 3: the last year. So there are sort of I would say,

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Speaker 3: competing forces. You know, some aspects of uncertainty are gone.

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Speaker 3: That's good. But then there, as you say, this sort

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Speaker 3: of march up and rates, which is a global story

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Speaker 3: by the way, is still a big thing out there.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so we are going to be focusing on bonds today.

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Speaker 2: We might record an equity specific episode later this week,

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Speaker 2: but because of the upcoming FED meeting, and the election

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Speaker 2: this week we felt, you know, let's look at bonds.

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Speaker 2: Let's look at bonds, all right, and who better to

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Speaker 2: look at bonds than Harley Bassman, managing partner at Simplify

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Speaker 2: Asset Management and the creator of Convexity Maven, which is

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Speaker 2: an awesome publication. If you're not already reading it, Harley,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming back on all thoughts.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much. Glad you're a wait today.

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Speaker 3: So I was also the creator of the Move index,

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Speaker 3: which in addition, oh yeah, it right, in addition creator,

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Speaker 3: in addition to being the Convexity Maven himself, should anyway

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Speaker 3: keep going traces?

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, why don't we start with the Move index? Then,

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Speaker 2: Harley explain or just give us a recap on what's

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Speaker 2: been going on with the move, because there was one

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Speaker 2: specific day where we saw a big move upwards ha

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Speaker 2: ha ha. In the move.

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Speaker 4: The move is the Vicks for bonds. It's basically a

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Speaker 4: one month window and so last month when we went

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Speaker 4: from October four to October seven, the election popped into

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Speaker 4: that window and that's what and so that's when you

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Speaker 4: had the big jump in the move. And from that

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Speaker 4: you could then calculate the market's expectation of volatility from that,

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Speaker 4: and when we crossed over a month ago, I said

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Speaker 4: eighteen basis points. When we walked into yesterday it was

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Speaker 4: at seventeen basis points. So the market kind of got

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Speaker 4: it right. And as a Leco screen right now, tenure

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Speaker 4: rates moved about eighteen so market kind of called this

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Speaker 4: thing right on the move that was at one thirty ish,

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Speaker 4: it's now one seventeen ish. It's going to drop again

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Speaker 4: after the Fed on Thursday, because we still have the

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Speaker 4: uncertainty of what they're going to go and do. We

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Speaker 4: kind of think it's locked in, but not for sure.

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Speaker 4: You'll see the move kind of dropped down after that.

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Speaker 4: I guess the contrastor kind of zipping towards is that

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Speaker 4: the vics at you know, fifteen ish now. It never

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Speaker 4: got that high. It got like twenty ish two days ago,

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Speaker 4: which is barely above its long term average. Stock market

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Speaker 4: has not moved that much for this entire time. All

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Speaker 4: the volatility has been in rates, the uncertainty of what

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Speaker 4: the Fed's going to go and do, and that still

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Speaker 4: is not over. We still have to figure out what

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Speaker 4: is the terminal value. The terminal rate the Fed's that

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Speaker 4: we get to, as well as where we're going to

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Speaker 4: be this December, which is very interesting right now if

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Speaker 4: you look at the market, we've had the market pricing

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Speaker 4: in a lower rate than the dots, the Fed's prediction

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Speaker 4: of policy going forward. That is now flipped over. We

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Speaker 4: now have the market at forty basis points higher than

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Speaker 4: the fed's most recent dot plot, and that's kind of new.

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Speaker 4: So the market's kind of changing sentiment here about where

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Speaker 4: we're going to land a December from now and then

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Speaker 4: two years from now.

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Speaker 3: Is that rare historically that here we have the vics

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Speaker 3: really close to rock bottom levels and the move is

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Speaker 3: still somewhat elevated if you go back historically. Is this

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Speaker 3: common in period? Because intuitively, I would guess that if

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Speaker 3: there's a high amount of uncertainty about what the FED

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Speaker 3: is going to do over the medium term, I thought,

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Speaker 3: you know, things like inflation and the FED mattered for

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Speaker 3: stocks and therefore on some level that would translate to

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Speaker 3: equity markets. How rare is that disconnect?

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Speaker 4: In general? From thirty thousand feet the move and the

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Speaker 4: vics go hand in hand. You can't trade them, don't

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Speaker 4: ever do that, Okay, But they don't want to go

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Speaker 4: hand in hand. As far as I can tell, this

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Speaker 4: is the longest period of where there's been a disconnect

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Speaker 4: between the two of them, which is not really a

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Speaker 4: shock when you think about it, because all the uncertainty

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Speaker 4: has been in the bond market. We had, we had QI,

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Speaker 4: we had QT, we had zup. The FED take and

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Speaker 4: makes some five hundred points in short order. The uncertainty

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Speaker 4: has all been in the rates market and not in

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Speaker 4: the stock market, and for reasons for that, the fiscal

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Speaker 4: impulse of spending money has kept the stock market and

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Speaker 4: the economy going well better than expected. So it's surprising,

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Speaker 4: but when you look at the actual data, it's not

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Speaker 4: that much of a shock. We still don't know where

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Speaker 4: rates are going to settle, but we have a pretty

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Speaker 4: good idea the stocks are going to be okay.

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Speaker 2: So one thing I've been wondering is you often hear

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Speaker 2: from Republicans that they think economic growth will offset things

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Speaker 2: that increase the deficit. So you know, we can have

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Speaker 2: big tax cuts because the economy is going to boom

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Speaker 2: and so the US will get more income and that

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Speaker 2: will ultimately help offset the deficit. I'm always curious from

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Speaker 2: a bond trader's perspective, How do you actually incorporate like

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Speaker 2: economic growth specifically into your outlook for rates.

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Speaker 4: That's a challenge. I mean, you know, we have the numbers,

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Speaker 4: but long and variable lags, as the expression goes, tends

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Speaker 4: to dominate. Like I'm u Chicago, I'm a monitorist. I

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Speaker 4: think you know, printing money cross inflation just takes time

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Speaker 4: for it to happen. I mean, what you've seen recently

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Speaker 4: is the FED basically printed created lots of money, and

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Speaker 4: the last you know, four years, they set that pile

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Speaker 4: of money ablaze. And here we go. We have higher rates,

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Speaker 4: we have inflation, and you have a stock market doing okay,

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Speaker 4: and it seems like that's not going to change going forward.

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Speaker 4: Becomes very interesting the markets move to where it's supposed

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Speaker 4: to kind of go to. I think we're fair value

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Speaker 4: right now. Now you can go well above fair value,

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Speaker 4: but we've kind of gotten to where we're supposed to

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Speaker 4: go if you kind of take the FED at its

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Speaker 4: word of where they're faking inflation is going to be

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Speaker 4: and where the economy is gonna be. What we don't

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Speaker 4: know right now is the push me, pull me effect

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Speaker 4: between the fiscal impulse of theory that you know, Trump's

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Speaker 4: kind of they advertise spending seven trillion dollars more versus

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Speaker 4: immigration policy and tariffs which are negative. How is it

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Speaker 4: going to work? That's unclear? I mean, which side is

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Speaker 4: going to go and win? This is kind of why

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Speaker 4: we have to go And really kind of the expression

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Speaker 4: has been you take Trump seriously but not literally. I'll

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Speaker 4: go with that. We don't know what he's actually going

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Speaker 4: to do. When at the end of the day, is

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Speaker 4: he going to deport ten million people? Kind of doubt it.

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Speaker 4: But could he go and to port a million? I

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Speaker 4: guess so? And will that be impactful? Yeah? Yeah, I

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Speaker 4: mean is he gonna raise terrorists? He's good? Triple tariffs? No,

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Speaker 4: could you take about twenty thirty percent? Yeah? And what

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Speaker 4: will that be through the system?

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Speaker 3: We don't know yet, right, and I think there's gonna

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Speaker 3: there's just a tremendous amount of uncertainty on the specifics

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Speaker 3: of this point, and obviously something we're going to be

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Speaker 3: covering a lot really, I think in the years ahead,

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Speaker 3: trying to understand how the economy evolves. Let's take it

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Speaker 3: really short term for a second, because we do have

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Speaker 3: that FED decision tomorrow. It seems like the market's basically locked.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be a twenty five basis point cut.

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Speaker 3: Is there anything that you'll be watching? You know, there's

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Speaker 3: no dots that are going to come out tomorrow, so

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Speaker 3: it's I don't know, maybe, especially in the context of

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Speaker 3: this week, one of the least anticipated FED decisions I

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Speaker 3: can remember in sometime. But there's always some signal. Is

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Speaker 3: there anything in particular that you'll be watching or listening

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Speaker 3: for tomorrow when that decision comes out.

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Speaker 4: I've been saying for many many months now. I mean

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Speaker 4: I have higher for longer. I will say that I

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Speaker 4: was on the record thinking they would not cut last time.

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Speaker 4: I thought they'd wait till after the election, you go

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Speaker 4: and do it. But I still think we have to

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Speaker 4: go and focus on what's really important here. The reason

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Speaker 4: why we still agreed the Greek tragedies we still read

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Speaker 4: Shakespeare is these guys captured, you know, the essence of mankind,

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Speaker 4: which is hubris ego. J. Powell does not want to

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Speaker 4: go down as Arthur Burns, who cut rates as inflation

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Speaker 4: came down in the seventies and then inflation came roaring

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Speaker 4: on back and he became you know, the dog of inflation,

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Speaker 4: whereas vulgar is our saint. I think Powell wants to

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Speaker 4: go out as the hero. And therefore, with what's going

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Speaker 4: on and the proposed policies by Trump, I kind of

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Speaker 4: think he's pretty worried about, you know, a resurgence of

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Speaker 4: inflation and having his tombstone, say Arthur BYRNS reducts. So

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Speaker 4: I kind of think he's going to want to go

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Speaker 4: and sit back a little bit and kind of watch

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Speaker 4: and see what Trump actually does. I just don't see

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Speaker 4: if dropping rates as hard as everyone thinks. If he

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Speaker 4: thinks he's going to go and reignite inflation and damage

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Speaker 4: his legacy, I think his legacy probably matters more than

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Speaker 4: anything else to him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one thing I wanted to ask you about, you know,

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Speaker 2: you mentioned that idea of taking Trump seriously but not literally,

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Speaker 2: and how that introduces a lot of uncertainty in the market.

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Speaker 2: Some of that uncertainty, in addition to being captured in

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Speaker 2: the move index, has been captured in the term premium,

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Speaker 2: which has been going up. And term premium, I mean

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Speaker 2: everyone has different definitions of it, but like a basic

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Speaker 2: one is that it is the extra compensation or yield

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Speaker 2: that investors demand to hold longer term debt. And the

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Speaker 2: thinking here is that the term premium might be going

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Speaker 2: up because we're going to have all that uncertainty that

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Speaker 2: comes with a Trump win. How are you thinking about

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Speaker 2: the term premium from here on out?

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Speaker 4: I'm thinking about what is what it's called fair value,

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Speaker 4: which is almost a meaningless number. But let's just what's

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Speaker 4: fair value. Let's just say inflation comes in at two

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Speaker 4: and a half those a two, which is not shock

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Speaker 4: pcees two to seven. The Fed slaps on thirty forty

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Speaker 4: basis points of real rate, right, and then you go

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Speaker 4: and put on the proper curve, and historically going back

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Speaker 4: thirty five years, including all the stuff up and down,

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Speaker 4: all the bear's panics and kiwis, basically you average one

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Speaker 4: hundred and fifty basis points one hundred and forty seventy

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Speaker 4: precise between FED funds and the tenure. Well, if that

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Speaker 4: fund is going to be two eighty eight, which is

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Speaker 4: the long term dots we have right now, which is

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Speaker 4: thirty eight basis points above inflation of two and a half,

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Speaker 4: so or a real rate of almost a half point there,

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Speaker 4: that just tens at four thirty five. You know we're

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Speaker 4: four forty five. We're kind of there right now. What

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Speaker 4: I see happening is the FED will take rates down

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Speaker 4: slower and expected the ten years. We're kind of in

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Speaker 4: the in the kill zone right now, although something crazy

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Speaker 4: happens and we have nominal GDP coming in like at

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Speaker 4: five ish, Okay, I mean nominal GDP should kind of

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Speaker 4: equal ten year rates in the grand scheme of the world.

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Speaker 4: As a U Chicago person, and so I kind of

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Speaker 4: think the term premium as we calculate it will expand

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Speaker 4: as the front end comes down, and we'll all be

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Speaker 4: right with the world, except for a few bumps and

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Speaker 4: bruises along the way. Once again, we really don't know

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Speaker 4: what's going to happen between immigration and tariffs and immigration.

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Speaker 4: I don't even hung about the politics of it, but

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Speaker 4: I want to be very clear at the upper level,

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Speaker 4: the econ me is people times, hours, test productivity, people

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Speaker 4: hours productivity. I think what's happened in the last two

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Speaker 4: years is we've had more people come in via immigration,

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Speaker 4: legal or otherwise. That's supported the economy. Thus we have

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Speaker 4: numbers coming in better. And then if we start deporting people,

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Speaker 4: you'll have less people. You'll bless GDP. Is that bad?

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Speaker 4: Maybe not. I mean, if you if that's how you

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Speaker 4: view the world, you want to have reduce immigration, if

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Speaker 4: you're willing to go pay a higher interest rate for it,

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Speaker 4: that's fine. I'm not going to debate the concept. I

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Speaker 4: was going to say, what happens at the end of

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Speaker 4: the road when you do that? And we're always willing

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Speaker 4: to go in and make cost benefit payoffs when we

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Speaker 4: make decisions. Nothing's free in the world. So green policy,

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Speaker 4: if you want to transfer from oil to solar and

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Speaker 4: wind right now cost more money to do that. I'm

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Speaker 4: not saying it's a bad policy, but we're willing to

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Speaker 4: go pay it to go get that climate under control.

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Speaker 4: That's okay. Just remember you're paying a price for it,

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Speaker 4: and what's what price you're wanting to pay.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned Powell and the ghost of Arthur Burns, which

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Speaker 3: of course is something that people have talked about at

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Speaker 3: Fairmount and he doesn't want to go down as the

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Speaker 3: person who really let inflation run wild again. And you know,

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Speaker 3: earlier this year it seemed like okay, that had been cemented.

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Speaker 3: They did the fifty bases point cut. Since then, the

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Speaker 3: economy has been a little stronger than perhaps people had expected.

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Speaker 3: Then there's all the Trump uncertainty, et cetera. That being said,

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Speaker 3: this gets to trick taking Trump seriously versus literally, and

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Speaker 3: the uncertainty about what we don't know what he's gonna do.

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Speaker 3: One thing we do know that he did last time

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Speaker 3: was Browbie J. Powell on Twitter and other platforms about

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Speaker 3: lowering rates. When you think about that time period specifically

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, I think it was more eighteen.

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Speaker 3: Did that have an effect? And should we think about

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Speaker 3: the pressure that would probably likely emerge in twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: five again if there's not significant rate cuts.

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Speaker 4: I suppose, But I think the much bigger event around

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Speaker 4: that time was that when Powell's time came up for renomination,

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Speaker 4: the government dragged their feet by like nine months on

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Speaker 4: that because there was so much you know, I guess

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Speaker 4: think does Biden wanted to put in a moreduvish person.

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Speaker 3: But in twenty eighteen specifically, that's when Paul was still

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Speaker 3: hiking rates. We got the far away from neutral comment,

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Speaker 3: which eventually had to get reversed. And that was when

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Speaker 3: Trump was doing a lot of tweeting about rates, and

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Speaker 3: so there was that pressure from the White House to

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Speaker 3: the you know, nominally independent Federal Reserve or the independent

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Speaker 3: Federal Reserve. And what I'm curious is whether you think,

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Speaker 3: as you were called back at that time, that that

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Speaker 3: pressure had least at the margin, some effect on the

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Speaker 3: policy setting.

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Speaker 4: I don't think it had that much. And I don't

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Speaker 4: because now we've had another, you know, four or five

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Speaker 4: eight years to look at this thing. It's unclear to

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Speaker 4: me that what Trump was saying in Twitter was the

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Speaker 4: same thing he was saying, you know, via Treasury Secretary.

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Speaker 4: It seems to me that that there's a there's a

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Speaker 4: dual level over here of what he actually wants to

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Speaker 4: do versus what he says using the bully pulpit. So

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Speaker 4: it could be it could have been going. Let's say

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Speaker 4: he's telling pell to keep going, to keep everything constant,

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Speaker 4: but in public he's saying, take him down to go

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Speaker 4: and you know, sound good root for the home team.

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Speaker 4: It's unclear to me if that wasn't the case.

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Speaker 2: Joe had a great piece in our new daily newsletter

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Speaker 2: last week, or maybe it was two weeks ago.

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Speaker 3: I think it was too lost track of time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, time is a flat circle at this point, but

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Speaker 2: it was about potential constraints on Trump that are introduced

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Speaker 2: from the rate market. So, for instance, we know that

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Speaker 2: mortgage rates broadly track US treasury yields, and so those

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Speaker 2: have been going up recently, and most people don't like

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Speaker 2: it when mortgage rates go up.

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Speaker 1: Are there any.

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Speaker 2: Political complexities that are introduced for Trump from the rate market?

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Speaker 2: The sort of real world impact of the rate market.

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Speaker 4: I think the real world is going to have to

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Speaker 4: be real money, which means the rates go up, and

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Speaker 4: therefore the deficit goes up because our interest payments go

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Speaker 4: up because we have so much of our debt is

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Speaker 4: front loaded that keeps rolling over. So you know, it's

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Speaker 4: not that we put out so much ten or thirty

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Speaker 4: year paper where the rates locked in. We have most

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Speaker 4: of the debt in the front end. So if rates

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Speaker 4: go up by one hundred, that almost immediately goes into

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Speaker 4: deficit spending. I think those kinds of things where the

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Speaker 4: real money hits the road, could be a bumper for

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Speaker 4: how he operates. I don't think the actual rate moving

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Speaker 4: itself will be the cause. I think we have to

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Speaker 4: see see the whites of their eyes for it to happen.

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Speaker 3: I just have one more question I think, but you know,

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Speaker 3: you mentioned the sort of multiple messages from the last

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Speaker 3: Trump administration, and he may have on Twitter been browbeating

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Speaker 3: Powell about lowering rates. But I think his Treasury secretary,

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Speaker 3: Steve Manuchen, operated as what I would say is like

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Speaker 3: a fairly normy treasury secretary, not a lot of populism,

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Speaker 3: policy adventurism, et cetera. Seemed to actually in retrospect at

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Speaker 3: the time, but also in retrospect, have a fair degree

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Speaker 3: of respect among people, I would say, on both sides

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Speaker 3: of the aisle in the weeks ahead, like how much

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Speaker 3: are you going to be keying onto personnel decisions when

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Speaker 3: you're thinking about the medium term or longer term trajectory

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Speaker 3: of this stuff that the new administration makes in terms

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Speaker 3: of how that will feed through into things that would

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Speaker 3: affect interest rates.

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Speaker 4: I think you have stumbled over the truth. I think

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Speaker 4: I think who he picks for his cabinet and his

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Speaker 4: senior leadership team is almost vastly more important than Trump himself.

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Speaker 4: We saw who he picked last time, said, I want

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Speaker 4: to say established with people, but seasoned people who knew

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Speaker 4: the game. The extent he brings in less seasoned people

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Speaker 4: that brings in uncertainty. It doesn't mean it's bad, It

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Speaker 4: just means it's uncertain market d uncertainty. So I think

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Speaker 4: we're gonna still see a lot of volatility in the

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Speaker 4: market until we see the slate of who's going to

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Speaker 4: bring in for the key positions.

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Speaker 2: All right, Harley Bassman of Convexity Mave and the Convexity Maven,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on All Thoughts at

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Speaker 2: short notice to talk about the bond market.

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Speaker 4: Thanks, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Joe. Harley is great and I think he was truly

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Speaker 2: the perfect guest for this particular conversation. One thing, I'm wondering,

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Speaker 2: how many times do you think we said uncertainty in

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Speaker 2: that podcast.

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Speaker 3: We'll have to go back to the transcript. And look, no,

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Speaker 3: he was because look it's the Wednesday morning after the election,

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Speaker 3: and there are so many questions in so much time

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Speaker 3: in space for sort of big picture future of the country,

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Speaker 3: future of the Democratic Party. Who all these thoughts and

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Speaker 3: it's like, I'm not really into trying to figure that

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Speaker 3: stuff out less than twelve hours after we got the result.

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Speaker 3: So Harley was great because then of course we have

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Speaker 3: this FED decision and so nice, a nice stop a

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Speaker 3: nice little snapshot of this moment in politics, economics, and

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Speaker 3: rate market uncertainty.

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Speaker 2: I do think though, when it comes to rates, the

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Speaker 2: move upwards that we've seen recently, there was discussion about

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Speaker 2: whether or not they were moving in line with Trump's

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Speaker 2: chances of winning or signs that the economy was still

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Speaker 2: going relatively strong and that might imperil the FED cuts.

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Speaker 2: But I think like maybe that argument is settled somewhat

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Speaker 2: today with that reaction, because we pretty much know that

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Speaker 2: the Fed's going to cut tomorrow. Yeah, still rates start

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Speaker 2: moving up, So at least that's that's one thing I

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Speaker 2: think that's been kind of settled.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, but there are Look I'm yeah, maybe I'm.

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Speaker 2: Clutching at straws at this point.

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Speaker 3: We're looking for something real, you know. I would just

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Speaker 3: go back to two things, which is, it is interesting,

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Speaker 3: as hardly confirmed, this disconnect between stock volatility and rates volatility,

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Speaker 3: and it'll be interesting to see how long this gap persists.

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Speaker 3: And then the other thing I would say is, you know,

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Speaker 3: we talk a lot about bond market vigilantes, and I've

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Speaker 3: never loved that term because I think it prescribes a

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Speaker 3: certain level of agency to individual investors that I don't

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Speaker 3: think is necessarily warranted. But two things to your point,

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Speaker 3: I still think people really don't like higher mortgage rates,

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Speaker 3: and I think this is going to be a on

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Speaker 3: some level political challenge for the Trump administration. And b

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Speaker 3: even though we didn't really talk about equities very much,

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Speaker 3: people like higher stock price higher sixty one percent of

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Speaker 3: American households, according to Gallup, owned stock. Stock is how

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Speaker 3: people fund college education. Stock is how people fund retirement.

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Speaker 3: And one thing that I'll be curious about is what

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Speaker 3: I would call the stock market vigilantes and the degree

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Speaker 3: to which equity markets act as a constraint on policy

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Speaker 3: adventurers and particularly on things like tariffs, et cetera, that

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Speaker 3: you could imagine a lot of companies in the US

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Speaker 3: really won't like for various reasons. I just think it

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Speaker 3: like financial market vigilantes in general, I think it'll be

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Speaker 3: really interesting to see what kind of limit they impose

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Speaker 3: on a Trump administration that may be stocked with potentially

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Speaker 3: different type of personnel than the first one.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess the only certainty at this point is

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Speaker 2: that we will have lots to talk about. Yeah, sure,

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Speaker 2: shall we leave it there.

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Speaker 3: Let's leave it there.

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Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

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Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.

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Speaker 3: Follow our guest Harley bass and he's at Convexity Maven.

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00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 3: Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen armand dash Ol

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Speaker 3: Bennett at Dashbot and kill Brooks at Kilbrooks. Thank you

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Speaker 3: to our producer Moses Ondam. From our Oddlots content. Go

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Speaker 3: to Bloomberg dot com slash Odlots, where we have transcripts,

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Speaker 3: a blog, and a newsletter and you can chat about

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Speaker 2: And if you enjoy Adlots, if you like it when

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Speaker 2: we look at the bond market with veterans like Harley Basman,

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Speaker 2: then please leave us a positive review on your favorite

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Speaker 2: podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber,

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Speaker 2: also listen to all the Oddlots episodes absolutely ad free.

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Speaker 2: All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel

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Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening,

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Speaker 2: Benea