WEBVTT - Ep. 04: Old Man America

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<v Speaker 1>When Native people cast about for an American animal to

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<v Speaker 1>carry their creation stories, the intelligent survivor coyote became Deity. Coyote,

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<v Speaker 1>an avatar for humans who taught them about human nature

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<v Speaker 1>for thousands of years. I'm Dan Flores, and this is

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<v Speaker 1>the American West, brought to you by velvet Buck. Still

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<v Speaker 1>in barrel, Velvet Buck arrives this summer just in time

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<v Speaker 1>for the season that calls us home. A portion of

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<v Speaker 1>every bottle supports backcountry hunters and anglers to protect public lands,

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<v Speaker 1>waters and wildlife enjoy responsibly. Old Man America in the

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<v Speaker 1>remotest time of early North America, after he had molded

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<v Speaker 1>mud from the ocean bottom into mountains, plains, and forests

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<v Speaker 1>to create the essential topography of the continent, Coyote was

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<v Speaker 1>going along. He had placed stars in the sky, some

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<v Speaker 1>as pictures, some as a latticed road across the night.

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<v Speaker 1>Some tossed willy nilly into the inky black. He had

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<v Speaker 1>arranged the year into four seasons, and he had populated

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<v Speaker 1>the world with humans as the special helper of the Creator,

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<v Speaker 1>who seemed not especially interested in any of this hands

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<v Speaker 1>on creation work himself. Coyote had killed monster after monster

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<v Speaker 1>on behalf of his human charges, who he had then

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<v Speaker 1>located in good monster free spots across America. He had

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<v Speaker 1>released animals like buffalo from underground, and admittedly with a

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<v Speaker 1>few unlucky mistakes, had placed salmon and other fish and

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<v Speaker 1>many of the rivers. He had invented penises and z

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<v Speaker 1>giinas and taught humans what to do with them, and

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<v Speaker 1>he created a sexual division of labor among men and women.

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<v Speaker 1>The first technology in the form of fire, came from Coyote. Then,

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<v Speaker 1>not without some remorse, he had introduced death to the world. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>with all these fundamental creations in place, Coyote had no

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<v Speaker 1>intention of stepping into the background or hiding himself. He

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to enjoy how much humans appreciated his creativity. One morning,

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<v Speaker 1>Coyote was going along and spotted a handsome young warrior

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<v Speaker 1>who told Coyote he was embarking on a journey of

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<v Speaker 1>war against his enemies. Although Coyote was actually a peaceful

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<v Speaker 1>sword who thought war and battles to the death were

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<v Speaker 1>very bad ideas, he told his new companion that he

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<v Speaker 1>was a famous warrior and would be indispensable on the quest.

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<v Speaker 1>That first night, the warrior said they would camp at

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<v Speaker 1>a place called scalped Man by the fire. Coyote did

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<v Speaker 1>not like the sound of that. At the camp, Kyote

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<v Speaker 1>relaxed while the warrior cooked and did all the chores.

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<v Speaker 1>Then Coyote took the best pieces of the meal for himself,

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<v Speaker 1>even laying extra meat over his chest and legs in

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<v Speaker 1>case he woke hungry in the night. Sometime in the night,

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<v Speaker 1>Coyote heard a sound, and when he looked, there was

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<v Speaker 1>scalp man standing over him. Quick as he could, he

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<v Speaker 1>swung his club, but somehow what he hit was his knee,

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<v Speaker 1>which caused him to yowl in pain, waking the warrior.

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<v Speaker 1>I have taken care of Scalpman, Coyote told him, and

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<v Speaker 1>they went back to sleep. Having clubbed his own knee,

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<v Speaker 1>Coyote leapt through much of the next day, but made

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<v Speaker 1>it okay to a camp called cooked meat flying all around.

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<v Speaker 1>But when Coyote heard the warrior described the next night's

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<v Speaker 1>camp where the the arrows fly around, his knee suddenly

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<v Speaker 1>took a turn for the worse. Coyote lagged far behind

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<v Speaker 1>that next day, hoping for a camp somewhere else, but

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<v Speaker 1>the warrior led them on that night. Arrows began to

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<v Speaker 1>fly from every direction. The warrior stood and caught one

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<v Speaker 1>after another, while Coyote twisted and twirled and crawled on

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<v Speaker 1>the ground, trying to avoid them, until one arrow grazed

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<v Speaker 1>his arm. I've been killed, Coyote shouted, But when the

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<v Speaker 1>warrior pulled him to his feet and he found himself

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<v Speaker 1>still alive, Coyote asserted that actually his hurt knee had

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<v Speaker 1>caused him to fall asleep, and he had been dreaming.

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<v Speaker 1>The next night, their camp was at a place called

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<v Speaker 1>where the women visit the men. This place sounded like

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<v Speaker 1>an excellent camp to Coyote. His knee improved so remarkably

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<v Speaker 1>that day that he got far ahead on their march.

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<v Speaker 1>That night, a woman did come to Coyote, but in

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<v Speaker 1>the darkness he believed her to be old. Hoping much

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<v Speaker 1>younger women would arrive, he sent her away, only to

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<v Speaker 1>see in the firelight as she turned away that in

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<v Speaker 1>fact she was young and very beautiful. Coyote cried out

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<v Speaker 1>for her to return, telling her it had been some

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<v Speaker 1>spirit who had told her to leave, but she vanished

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<v Speaker 1>into the night. The camp following this one was called

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<v Speaker 1>war Clubs. Flying around all that day Coyote's knee hurt

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<v Speaker 1>so much that he was barely able to arrive at

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<v Speaker 1>the spot sure enough that night, clubs twirled at them

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<v Speaker 1>from every direction. The warrior caught to one for each

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<v Speaker 1>of them, but Coyote dodged and weaved so much that

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<v Speaker 1>a club finally beamed him. When he came to, Coyote

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<v Speaker 1>told the warrior that in his boredom, he had actually

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<v Speaker 1>just fallen asleep. That's why he had been lying so

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<v Speaker 1>flat and still. Then the warrior told Coyote that their

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<v Speaker 1>next camp was to be at a place called Vagina's

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<v Speaker 1>Flying around, Coyote's knee at once felt into entirely well,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was ready to depart then and there. He

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<v Speaker 1>pleaded for more details, but the warrior fell asleep. Coyote

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<v Speaker 1>sat by the fire all night, thinking of vaginas and

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<v Speaker 1>how many he might be able to carry with it.

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<v Speaker 1>His knee now stronger than had ever been in his life,

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<v Speaker 1>Coyote left early and ranged far ahead the next day.

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<v Speaker 1>That night, as promised, vaginas began to sail into camp,

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<v Speaker 1>and Coyote could tell they were just the kind he liked,

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<v Speaker 1>Young and plump. For most of the night, juicy vaginas

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<v Speaker 1>whizzed maddeningly out of reach, with Coyote flailing and chasing

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<v Speaker 1>and panning until he was near collapsed. Finally, near dawn,

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<v Speaker 1>Coyote caught one, but exhausted as he was when he

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<v Speaker 1>finally pinned it and mounted it, Coyote's organ resolutely refused

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<v Speaker 1>to rise to the occasion. The next night was their

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<v Speaker 1>final camp, and the warrior told Coyote this one was

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<v Speaker 1>called where the enemy attacks without delay. Coyote his knee

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<v Speaker 1>began to throb, and all day long he hung back

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<v Speaker 1>on the trail, crying piteously, and sure enough, when the

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<v Speaker 1>next morning came, enemies attacked from all sides. Coyote at

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<v Speaker 1>once ran for far horizons, but was overtaken, clubbed, and scouted. Meanwhile,

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<v Speaker 1>the warriors subdued all his enemies, then looked for Coyote.

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<v Speaker 1>When he knew all was clear, Coyote stood and announced

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<v Speaker 1>that he was going along now, but the warriors should

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<v Speaker 1>consider himself lucky that he had happened upon Coyote, otherwise

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<v Speaker 1>he would have had to engage in this adventure with

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<v Speaker 1>no help at all. From a famous warrior. Stories about Coyote,

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<v Speaker 1>often called Old Man coyote and rarely, although they are

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<v Speaker 1>present in the Cannon. Stories about old Woman coyote are

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<v Speaker 1>the oldest preserved human stories from North America. Both is

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<v Speaker 1>that coyote spelled with upper case a capital see to

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<v Speaker 1>distinguish the deity version from the ordinary coyote trotting by

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<v Speaker 1>while you read is America's oldest surviving literary figure. He

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<v Speaker 1>is also the most ancient god figure of which we

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<v Speaker 1>have record from the continent. When Siberian hunters first started

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<v Speaker 1>boting down the coastlines are crossing Beringia, at some point

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<v Speaker 1>in their entry of northwestern America, they began to encounter coyotes.

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<v Speaker 1>Wolves they knew from Asia and well enough that at

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<v Speaker 1>some point in their migration, these first Americans arrived with

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<v Speaker 1>domesticated ones, wolf like dogs whose wild ancestors in those

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<v Speaker 1>times were recent. But by the time of the Clovis

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<v Speaker 1>people at least, who spread to America more than thirteen

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<v Speaker 1>thousand years ago, continental coyotes were familiar creatures. Intriguingly, something

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<v Speaker 1>about coyotes captured the imaginations of these first Americans. Religious

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<v Speaker 1>explanations for the world and how it works are untold, thousands,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe millions of years old, so these former Siberians arrived

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<v Speaker 1>with intact religions and deities. But as these first human

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<v Speaker 1>residents settled in from California to the Mississippi River, from

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<v Speaker 1>the Pacific northwest to future New Mexico and Arizona, Coyote

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<v Speaker 1>emerged as the deity of the ancient Contina. No one

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<v Speaker 1>knows when this happened or exactly how coyote came to

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<v Speaker 1>embody so many different people's creation stories and ruminations on

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<v Speaker 1>human nature. All we know now, based on the oral

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<v Speaker 1>coyote stories collected among American Indians and set down by

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<v Speaker 1>nineteenth and twentieth century ethnographers and folklores, is that there

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<v Speaker 1>were thousands of coyote tales. No other native deity in

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<v Speaker 1>America came anywhere close to producing a body of oral

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<v Speaker 1>literature to rival them. The story here about Coote and

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<v Speaker 1>his knee, although written in my own voice, in its

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<v Speaker 1>original form, was collected from the Wichitas of the southern plains,

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<v Speaker 1>But the opening paragraph of this episode I distilled from

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<v Speaker 1>several groups from all over the West, the Navajos in

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<v Speaker 1>the southwest, the Crows on the northern plains, the Kurrak,

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<v Speaker 1>and wasco in California, the Monomonee of the Great Lakes,

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<v Speaker 1>the Coalville and Klamath of the Pacific Northwest, and the

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<v Speaker 1>Salish in Blackfeet from the northern Rockies. For almost all

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<v Speaker 1>of the past ten thousand years west of the Mississippi River,

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<v Speaker 1>coyote has been America's universal deity. Originally, he was a

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<v Speaker 1>Paleolithic god, but he survived the millennia to appear among

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<v Speaker 1>agricultural peoples like the Wichitas. Ultimately, his fame reached as

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<v Speaker 1>far south as the Aztecs, who knew him as Wayway Coyotal.

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<v Speaker 1>Old Man Coyote truly is Old Man America. The history

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<v Speaker 1>of coyotes and the history of humans has many parallels,

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<v Speaker 1>but one difference between us is that across our own

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<v Speaker 1>evolutionary history, we humans have created thousands of philosophies of

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<v Speaker 1>meaning we call religions, while coyotes, so far as we

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<v Speaker 1>can tell, embrace no religious tradition beyond life the sacredness

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<v Speaker 1>of existence. In so far as we go, our oldest

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<v Speaker 1>forms of religious explanations featured animals as deities, a type

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<v Speaker 1>of religion called animism that was fashioned by humans living

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<v Speaker 1>their lives as hunters or hunter gatherers, what we might

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<v Speaker 1>call Coyotism is certainly a paleolithic religion. The famed psychologist

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<v Speaker 1>Carl Jung is only one of hundreds, from scientists to

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<v Speaker 1>poets who have found coyote enduringly fascinating, in part because

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<v Speaker 1>of how fundamental he is in human thought. In Jung's view,

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<v Speaker 1>the character of coyote is a faithful copy of an

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely undifferentiated human consciousness, a forerunner of the Savior, and

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<v Speaker 1>like him god, man and animal at once, he is

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<v Speaker 1>both subhuman and superhuman, a bestial and divine being. The

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<v Speaker 1>Western religious traditions of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity sprang from

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<v Speaker 1>later periods of human history, following our domestication of plants

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<v Speaker 1>and animals, what anthropologists called the Neolithic Revolution. Early religions

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<v Speaker 1>could feature animals, particularly the sacred bull, as deities, but

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<v Speaker 1>over time, hurting and agricultural cultures gradually replaced animal gods

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<v Speaker 1>along with gods of special places on the landscape, another

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<v Speaker 1>feature of animism with deities that assumed human form. The

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<v Speaker 1>Greek gods, who are so foundational in Western cultures, are

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<v Speaker 1>classical examples of this evolution. Four thousand years ago, the

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<v Speaker 1>Greeks replaced animal and plant deities with gods and goddesses

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<v Speaker 1>in human form, Artemis, who became a mistress of the

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<v Speaker 1>animals as a goddess of the hunt, and Demater, who

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<v Speaker 1>evolved into a human form goddess of wheat and crops.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the most intriguing questions about coyote is simply this,

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<v Speaker 1>Why did the ancient settlers of North America pick this

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<v Speaker 1>particular animal as their deity? Ten thousand years and more

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<v Speaker 1>in the past, the first Americans would have had many

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<v Speaker 1>scores of animal candidates for their deity figures. Charismatic creatures

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<v Speaker 1>like mammos or dire wolves or saber toothed cats might

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<v Speaker 1>seem to us more likely choices, and in the early

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<v Speaker 1>stages of human settlement, perhaps they had been gods. My

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<v Speaker 1>own speculation is that as the Wisconsin I says, gave

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<v Speaker 1>way to a rapidly warming world, joined at the same

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<v Speaker 1>time by the great simplification event known as the Pleistocene extinctions,

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<v Speaker 1>which took all three of my suggested species and many others.

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<v Speaker 1>The wild coyotes around Indian peoples of the time fascinated

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<v Speaker 1>them as creatures endowed with special abilities. I suspect that

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<v Speaker 1>it was the coyotes self evident ability to survive those

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<v Speaker 1>profound changes when the big charismatic species could not that

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<v Speaker 1>attracted human attention. There probably was also an easy identification

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<v Speaker 1>with the social lives of predatory wild coyotes that made

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<v Speaker 1>them feel familiar to human hunters. In his book Pueblo

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<v Speaker 1>Gods and Myths, anthropologists Hamilton Tyler writes that the ability

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<v Speaker 1>of an animal to become a god is in part

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<v Speaker 1>due to his symbolic potential, which is to say, the

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<v Speaker 1>number of ideas he can stand. For a god, even

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<v Speaker 1>the simplest god, is based upon a certain amount of

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<v Speaker 1>abstraction in the human mind. Another anthropologist, Lewis Hyde, believes

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<v Speaker 1>that coyote stories point to coyotes to teach about the mind.

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<v Speaker 1>The stories themselves look to predator pray relationships for the

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<v Speaker 1>birth of cunning. How it goes on, One reason native

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<v Speaker 1>observers may have chosen coyote is that the former in

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<v Speaker 1>fact does exhibit a great plasticity of behavior and is

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<v Speaker 1>therefore a consummate survivor in a shifting world, especially before

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<v Speaker 1>our lives in cities which obscured our deep dependency on

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<v Speaker 1>nature and diverted our powers of observation. We humans were

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<v Speaker 1>profound observers of the natural world. These early Americans would

0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.400
<v Speaker 1>not have failed to notice one other characteristic of wild

0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.640
<v Speaker 1>coyotes in a dangerous and changing world, that the secret

0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.880
<v Speaker 1>of their uncanny ability to survive everything nature through at

0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:17.840
<v Speaker 1>them lay in a remarkable intelligence, the kind of trickster

0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.840
<v Speaker 1>figures that hide mentions make up a very old human

0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:26.200
<v Speaker 1>religious figure found in many animistic religions around the world

0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:31.240
<v Speaker 1>in the form of many creatures hairs, spiders, blue jays, ravens,

0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:36.280
<v Speaker 1>even human figures like the Norse trickster Loki. But here

0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.520
<v Speaker 1>in America, the coyote took up the mantle of a

0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.200
<v Speaker 1>god who lived by his wits. Having a smart god,

0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:47.840
<v Speaker 1>after all, was crucial to survival also to our understanding

0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:57.440
<v Speaker 1>of human nature in the animal within. In early American mythology,

0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:02.920
<v Speaker 1>coyote is almost never the ultimate cause God. More often,

0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.000
<v Speaker 1>as in the coyote stories from people like the Salish

0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:11.000
<v Speaker 1>and the Nespers, he's an immortal helper deity, semi divine

0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:15.359
<v Speaker 1>and present and engaged in earthly life. Most often in

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:20.359
<v Speaker 1>the stories, coyote inhabits the world before humankind. Sometimes his

0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.159
<v Speaker 1>initial form is human, which he gives up for his

0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:27.280
<v Speaker 1>coyote body once humans are present. In stories that are

0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:31.640
<v Speaker 1>set following the creation, however, coyote is commonly a kind

0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.919
<v Speaker 1>of an anthropomorphic animal, a coyote man. He preserves a

0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:38.720
<v Speaker 1>tale and a sharp muzzle and erect ears, but he

0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.880
<v Speaker 1>stands and walks upright, has a wife and a family,

0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.600
<v Speaker 1>and is capable of shape shifting into a form so

0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.360
<v Speaker 1>human like that often the other characters in a story

0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.679
<v Speaker 1>only suspect by his behavior that they are dealing with

0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:58.119
<v Speaker 1>Coyote himself. It does not take very much time or

0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.359
<v Speaker 1>analytical effort with the coyote s tales to draw a

0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.359
<v Speaker 1>conclusion about who Coyote really is, and that realization is

0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:09.800
<v Speaker 1>what makes him so intriguing. As a god. Coyote is

0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:15.320
<v Speaker 1>the god within his mythical function in the beginning is creation.

0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.200
<v Speaker 1>Coyote takes the basic structure of the world as set

0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.600
<v Speaker 1>in motion by the Creator, then improves on it and

0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:26.800
<v Speaker 1>gives it the natural laws that make it work that done.

0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.960
<v Speaker 1>His larger purpose in the many oral stories about him

0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:34.399
<v Speaker 1>is to reveal human nature more clearly and rather than

0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:39.400
<v Speaker 1>a perfect deity, Jung's savior figure a Jesus who teaches

0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:42.880
<v Speaker 1>a codified morality and is set up as a role

0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:49.000
<v Speaker 1>model for humans. Coyote personifies the full suite of humanity's traits,

0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:54.840
<v Speaker 1>good and bad. As a character, Coyote is the full Monty.

0:18:55.359 --> 0:19:01.840
<v Speaker 1>He's at once admirable, inspirational, imaginative, inner, energetic, a whirlwind

0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:06.160
<v Speaker 1>biophysical force with a large capacity for taking sensuous pleasure

0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:12.000
<v Speaker 1>in life. But he's also selfish, vain, deceitful, and quite

0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:17.560
<v Speaker 1>often envious, lustful, and ridiculous, possessed of an overconfidence that

0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:22.880
<v Speaker 1>gets him into endless fixes. Coyote's major flaw, resulting from

0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.760
<v Speaker 1>a combination of all of his human traits, is that

0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:31.639
<v Speaker 1>he finds cause, sometimes admirably, sometimes laughably, never to be

0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:36.080
<v Speaker 1>quite satisfied with the world, And because he is invariably

0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:40.520
<v Speaker 1>unable to predict consequences with any accuracy, his tinkering with

0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:44.760
<v Speaker 1>the world can produce disaster, especially and this is a

0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:48.360
<v Speaker 1>major theme in so many of the stories for Coyote himself.

0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:56.159
<v Speaker 1>Coyote is almost universally referred to as a trickster. But

0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.760
<v Speaker 1>after reading many scores of Native Coyote stories, I've begun

0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.080
<v Speaker 1>to think think we've been missing the point. While there

0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:07.520
<v Speaker 1>are certainly stories that feature tricks, the foolly is actually

0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.000
<v Speaker 1>just a means to an end. Again and again, the

0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.560
<v Speaker 1>point is not the trick. The point is why the

0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:18.639
<v Speaker 1>trick works, and invariably the reason is a result of

0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:23.040
<v Speaker 1>the foibles of human nature. These stories survive for thousands

0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:27.560
<v Speaker 1>of years because there's such penetrating exposees of the human condition.

0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.840
<v Speaker 1>Coyote was at his best when he taught lessons, almost

0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:36.400
<v Speaker 1>always uncomfortable or funny, ones about human behavior and motives.

0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:43.640
<v Speaker 1>As North America's oldest surviving deity, Coyote has bequeathed us

0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:49.719
<v Speaker 1>a continental world of imagination, creation, artistry, also hubrious and trouble,

0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.720
<v Speaker 1>it's difficult not to see the Coyote impulse writ large

0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.439
<v Speaker 1>in humanity. In deed, to my mind, therein lies a

0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:02.040
<v Speaker 1>test for stories about old men America, given what we

0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:07.440
<v Speaker 1>now know about ourselves using the modern tools of evolutionary

0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:12.720
<v Speaker 1>psychology and neuroscience. Looking at these ancient stories with twenty

0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:17.480
<v Speaker 1>first century insight, what can we say about how accurately

0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:22.640
<v Speaker 1>they show that people living thousands of years ago understood

0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.120
<v Speaker 1>as well as we do today exactly who we humans are.

0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:31.440
<v Speaker 1>The acquisition of status in games of romance and love,

0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:38.520
<v Speaker 1>experiential jolts to enhance neurochemistry and mood states a mind

0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:43.879
<v Speaker 1>conflicted over sin and virtue. For the long ago Americans

0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.800
<v Speaker 1>who selected wild coyotes as a suitable avatar for their

0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:51.520
<v Speaker 1>earthly deity, then worked out so many stories about him.

0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.200
<v Speaker 1>What better subjects for the adventures of their coyote god

0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:59.359
<v Speaker 1>than these, No doubt, Over the centuries, storytellers of Mark

0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:03.720
<v Speaker 1>Twain like Brilliance dazzled audiences laid into the night with

0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:09.080
<v Speaker 1>the many astounding adventures of Coyote, and romanticize their people's

0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:14.240
<v Speaker 1>trajectory through time. Coyote often operates as the very god

0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:18.760
<v Speaker 1>of Richard Dawkins's selfish gene, in which form his character

0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:23.600
<v Speaker 1>is usually that of a self absorbed buffoon. The stories

0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:27.720
<v Speaker 1>are that holds up such behavior and plain view. For

0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:34.119
<v Speaker 1>comic ridicule, Coyote stories were wildly entertaining. It was still

0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:38.760
<v Speaker 1>is perversely pleasurable to observe a character who so blithely

0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:44.160
<v Speaker 1>ignores rules and restrictions, usually with predictable results. Although benefits

0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:47.680
<v Speaker 1>from rule breaking happen often enough with Coyote to keep

0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:53.280
<v Speaker 1>things interesting, but a moral code it's rarely there, nor

0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:57.960
<v Speaker 1>are there promises of eternal life salvation from death, that

0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:02.920
<v Speaker 1>ancient and oppressive burden of our self awareness. What Old

0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Man America teaches us instead is delight in being alive

0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:13.879
<v Speaker 1>in a world of wondrous possibilities. Coyotism is a philosophy

0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.280
<v Speaker 1>for the realists among us, those who can do a

0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:21.679
<v Speaker 1>Cormac McCarthy like appraisal of human motives but find a

0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:25.520
<v Speaker 1>kind of chagrined humor in the act, who may think

0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:30.359
<v Speaker 1>of the human story as cyclical, even predictable, because human

0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:43.040
<v Speaker 1>nature never seems to change. These ancient stories from across

0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:47.080
<v Speaker 1>Western America lay death for all of us directly on

0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:53.320
<v Speaker 1>Coyote's doorstep, and story after story, it is Coyote who decreed,

0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:58.600
<v Speaker 1>for two admittedly rather admirable reasons, that all human beings

0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:02.800
<v Speaker 1>would have to die if humans never died. Coyote reason

0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:05.600
<v Speaker 1>this explanation is a part of stories from both the

0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:10.520
<v Speaker 1>Yanas of California and the Navajos of the Southwest. Overpopulation

0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:14.560
<v Speaker 1>and the destruction of the earth would be the result. Hence,

0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:19.800
<v Speaker 1>the initial reason Coyote invented death was actually an environmental one.

0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:24.600
<v Speaker 1>The Yanas said it was Coyote, who made it law

0:24:24.760 --> 0:24:27.919
<v Speaker 1>that humans would have to die to create space for

0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:32.919
<v Speaker 1>the generations down the timeline. Coyote also rationalized death for

0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:38.560
<v Speaker 1>a second reason, this time as a great teacher about life. Well,

0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:41.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, if you die, then you really have to

0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:45.760
<v Speaker 1>take life seriously. You have to think about things more.

0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.600
<v Speaker 1>Coyote himself was immortal, but when death visited him directly,

0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:55.479
<v Speaker 1>he had some serious second thoughts about what a good idea.

0:24:55.600 --> 0:24:59.720
<v Speaker 1>Death was one of the most poignant of all Coyote stories.

0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:04.280
<v Speaker 1>He's a nest purse account called Coyote and the Shadow People.

0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:08.120
<v Speaker 1>It's something close to a North American version of the

0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Greek myth of Orpheus and his wife Eurydus. I tell

0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:16.840
<v Speaker 1>it here rewritten in my own voice from the original

0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:27.040
<v Speaker 1>ethnographic account. Coyote and his wife were living happily when

0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:31.919
<v Speaker 1>she became sick. When she died, Coyote was overcome with

0:25:32.040 --> 0:25:35.800
<v Speaker 1>grief and loneliness. Others had died, but this was different.

0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:39.480
<v Speaker 1>So when death spirit came to him and offered to

0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:42.520
<v Speaker 1>take him to the place where his wife had gone, Coyote,

0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:46.160
<v Speaker 1>who was filled with hope, What I tell you, said,

0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:49.840
<v Speaker 1>Death Spirit, you must do everything exactly as I say.

0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:53.080
<v Speaker 1>Not once are you to disregard my commands and do

0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:58.159
<v Speaker 1>something else. So Coyote traveled with Death Spirit, thinking of

0:25:58.240 --> 0:26:01.320
<v Speaker 1>his wife, but noticing that his god was very difficult

0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:04.400
<v Speaker 1>to see and follow. He looked more like a shadow

0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:08.240
<v Speaker 1>than anything real. When he pointed out herds of horses

0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:11.560
<v Speaker 1>in the plane over which they traveled our bushes covered

0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:16.680
<v Speaker 1>in service berries, Coyote saw nothing, but he exclaimed over

0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:21.200
<v Speaker 1>the horses and pretended to eat the berries. Soon enough,

0:26:21.200 --> 0:26:24.120
<v Speaker 1>the guide announced that they had arrived and led Kyote

0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:26.679
<v Speaker 1>to where his wife was said to be sitting with

0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:32.000
<v Speaker 1>many others inside a very very long lodge. Again, the

0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:36.560
<v Speaker 1>spirit cautioned Coyote to do exactly as he said. Coyote

0:26:36.600 --> 0:26:39.439
<v Speaker 1>made every effort to do so, but while he felt

0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:42.840
<v Speaker 1>the spirit's presence, as far as he could see, they

0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:46.680
<v Speaker 1>were sitting in an open prairie. But Death Spirit told

0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:49.639
<v Speaker 1>him that conditions were different here, that when night fell

0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:52.800
<v Speaker 1>in the living world, it would be dawn in this place.

0:26:53.800 --> 0:26:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Sure enough, when night fell, Coyote began to hear people whispering.

0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:00.439
<v Speaker 1>He began to see many fires in the lot, and

0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:03.879
<v Speaker 1>to recognize old friends, whom he greeted and was able

0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:08.000
<v Speaker 1>to walk about with and reminisce, and he was overjoyed

0:27:08.040 --> 0:27:11.760
<v Speaker 1>to find his wife at his side. Late in the day,

0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:14.120
<v Speaker 1>the people began to grow faint and hard to see.

0:27:14.400 --> 0:27:16.520
<v Speaker 1>Then the spirit came to him and told him that

0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:20.680
<v Speaker 1>as Don came in the living world, night came for them,

0:27:21.000 --> 0:27:24.280
<v Speaker 1>but that Coyote should remain where he sat and not move,

0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:28.960
<v Speaker 1>and Coyote said he would. When Don came, Coyote found

0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:32.720
<v Speaker 1>himself sitting in the open prairie. As instructed, He remain

0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:36.120
<v Speaker 1>there all day, broiling in the heat, but sitting as

0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:39.800
<v Speaker 1>he had been told. This went on for several dawns

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:43.720
<v Speaker 1>and several nights, with Coyote's friends and his wife returning

0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:47.680
<v Speaker 1>and making merry, then fading as Don came, and kyoteing

0:27:47.760 --> 0:27:51.879
<v Speaker 1>waiting patiently in the heat of the day. Finally, after

0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:54.520
<v Speaker 1>too long, the death spirit came to him and said,

0:27:55.200 --> 0:27:58.760
<v Speaker 1>tomorrow you will go home. You will take your wife

0:27:58.800 --> 0:28:02.359
<v Speaker 1>with you. He told Coyote they would travel for five

0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:05.520
<v Speaker 1>days and pass five mountains, and that while he could

0:28:05.600 --> 0:28:08.280
<v Speaker 1>talk with his wife no matter what, he should not

0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:11.080
<v Speaker 1>touch her. That he should never lay a hand on

0:28:11.200 --> 0:28:14.640
<v Speaker 1>her until they had passed the last of the five mountains.

0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:20.080
<v Speaker 1>Then the spirit admonished Coyote, You, Coyote, must guard against

0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:27.720
<v Speaker 1>your inclination to do foolish things. At dawn, Coyote and

0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:31.560
<v Speaker 1>his wife started out, although Coyote could barely discern her,

0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:35.280
<v Speaker 1>but when they crossed the first mountain, Coyote could feel

0:28:35.320 --> 0:28:38.640
<v Speaker 1>her presence more strongly. When they camped on the homeward

0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:41.640
<v Speaker 1>side of the second mountain, she became clearer to him,

0:28:42.120 --> 0:28:45.479
<v Speaker 1>and in the next camp, beyond the third mountain, clearer still.

0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Now they were making their fourth camp, with only the

0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:52.520
<v Speaker 1>final mountain to cross the next day, and Coyote could

0:28:52.560 --> 0:28:55.800
<v Speaker 1>at last see his wife's face and her young body.

0:28:56.240 --> 0:29:00.400
<v Speaker 1>She was almost a living person again, Kayo. He had

0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:03.640
<v Speaker 1>dared not reach out to her before, but now looking

0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:06.640
<v Speaker 1>at her right there with him, he was overcome with

0:29:06.760 --> 0:29:10.120
<v Speaker 1>joy at having her again, and so impulsively ran to

0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:15.560
<v Speaker 1>embrace her. Stop Stop, Coyote, she cried, but it was

0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:19.240
<v Speaker 1>too late. At the very instant he touched her body,

0:29:19.720 --> 0:29:25.120
<v Speaker 1>she vanished. On learning of Coyote's folly, death spirit was

0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:29.120
<v Speaker 1>furious and he did not hesitate You, Coyote were about

0:29:29.160 --> 0:29:33.080
<v Speaker 1>to establish the practice of returning from death. Only a

0:29:33.120 --> 0:29:36.040
<v Speaker 1>short time away the human race is coming, but you

0:29:36.080 --> 0:29:40.640
<v Speaker 1>have spoiled everything and established for them death as it is.

0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:45.680
<v Speaker 1>At this Coyote hung his head and wept. But then

0:29:45.720 --> 0:29:49.920
<v Speaker 1>he had an idea. Drawing himself up, he retraced the

0:29:50.040 --> 0:29:53.400
<v Speaker 1>journey he and death spirit had made. He tried with

0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:57.120
<v Speaker 1>all his might to see the horses taste the service berries.

0:29:57.800 --> 0:30:00.920
<v Speaker 1>He found the spot where the long law which had stood,

0:30:01.040 --> 0:30:03.760
<v Speaker 1>even where he had sat with his wife beside him,

0:30:04.080 --> 0:30:08.160
<v Speaker 1>And when night fell he strained to hear voices and seafires.

0:30:09.360 --> 0:30:14.200
<v Speaker 1>When down came, Coyote found himself sitting in an open

0:30:14.600 --> 0:30:39.040
<v Speaker 1>empty plane. God's come and go, But old Man America

0:30:39.240 --> 0:30:43.360
<v Speaker 1>was too useful a deity to abandon them. One example

0:30:43.400 --> 0:30:46.800
<v Speaker 1>of the native sense of coyote power famously occurred among

0:30:46.840 --> 0:30:51.840
<v Speaker 1>the Navajos during the greatest misfortune that ever befell them hunters, herders,

0:30:51.920 --> 0:30:54.720
<v Speaker 1>and raiders from the North who had arrived in four

0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:58.440
<v Speaker 1>corners of the Southwest some six hundred years ago. The

0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:02.560
<v Speaker 1>Navajos found themselves at war with US troops during most

0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:07.320
<v Speaker 1>of the eighteen fifties and early eighteen sixties, distracted by

0:31:07.320 --> 0:31:10.280
<v Speaker 1>the Civil War. In a fit of exasperation at the

0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:14.400
<v Speaker 1>success of Navajo raids. The Army sent Taos mountain man

0:31:14.480 --> 0:31:18.360
<v Speaker 1>and scout Kit Carson, in command of a contingent of troops,

0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:22.560
<v Speaker 1>into Navajo country in eighteen sixty three, where Carson's men

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:27.840
<v Speaker 1>conducted a horrific scorched earth campaign against them. By eighteen

0:31:27.920 --> 0:31:31.440
<v Speaker 1>sixty four, some eight thousand Navajos had surrendered to the

0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:35.760
<v Speaker 1>Frontier Army, only to find themselves condemned to an incarceration

0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:40.320
<v Speaker 1>in eastern New Mexico, three hundred miles from home. Their

0:31:40.440 --> 0:31:44.280
<v Speaker 1>long walk to the Bosca Redondo prison camp and four

0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:47.880
<v Speaker 1>years of being held there under constant guard is one

0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:52.880
<v Speaker 1>of the most painful memories of Navajo history. But Navajos

0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:58.320
<v Speaker 1>also remember how this episode ended. After years of pleading

0:31:58.320 --> 0:32:01.920
<v Speaker 1>to return home and frequent breakouts of small groups that

0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:05.720
<v Speaker 1>fled westward across New Mexico, in eighteen sixty eight, the

0:32:05.840 --> 0:32:09.200
<v Speaker 1>US finally agreed to allow the Navajos to return to

0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:14.560
<v Speaker 1>their homeland. In Navajo oral tradition, the act that accomplished

0:32:14.560 --> 0:32:19.520
<v Speaker 1>this long for release was not negotiation or pleading, but

0:32:19.680 --> 0:32:25.120
<v Speaker 1>their ritual performance of a coyote way ceremony, which infused

0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:30.680
<v Speaker 1>Navajo leaders with enough coyote power finally to affect their release.

0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:38.080
<v Speaker 1>Coyote power, surviving by one's intelligence and wits when others cannot,

0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:45.000
<v Speaker 1>embracing existence in a mad, dancing, laughing, sympathetic expression of

0:32:45.080 --> 0:32:50.360
<v Speaker 1>pure joy at evading the grimmest of fates, exultation and

0:32:50.480 --> 0:32:56.000
<v Speaker 1>sheer aliveness, rueful chagrin at our shortcomings. These are the

0:32:56.120 --> 0:33:00.560
<v Speaker 1>lessons Old Man America has been granting for thousands of years.

0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Through those flashing canines. Coyote spoke truth, and he spoke

0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:09.760
<v Speaker 1>it across an unfathomable expanse of time.

0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:32.200
<v Speaker 2>In your in your podcast, you talked about, uh, this

0:33:32.320 --> 0:33:35.880
<v Speaker 2>idea that some that someone was the first, some person

0:33:36.320 --> 0:33:39.280
<v Speaker 2>was the first to be like, hey look a coyote. Yeah,

0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:43.600
<v Speaker 2>or coyote right. Uh. That's the thing I never thought

0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:45.560
<v Speaker 2>about with that animal. That's the thing I've wondered about

0:33:45.560 --> 0:33:47.840
<v Speaker 2>a lot, is if you if you accept this that

0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:53.680
<v Speaker 2>this leading theory that that the humans that came to

0:33:53.760 --> 0:33:57.080
<v Speaker 2>North American and South America passed through this kind of

0:33:57.160 --> 0:34:04.000
<v Speaker 2>arctic follow track, right, and they were Arctic people that

0:34:04.080 --> 0:34:12.400
<v Speaker 2>were living north of snakes. Okay, for instance, for generations.

0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:18.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, all idea of snakes probably was going you know,

0:34:18.480 --> 0:34:21.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean it was like probably race, maybe there was

0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:26.279
<v Speaker 2>some narrative or story that still had it in mythology,

0:34:26.440 --> 0:34:29.040
<v Speaker 2>like probably like buy and large, it was not a

0:34:29.239 --> 0:34:33.000
<v Speaker 2>part of discussions. And then people start picking their way

0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:37.120
<v Speaker 2>down the continent, and there was the first not like

0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:39.359
<v Speaker 2>oh people like if you got into it, there would

0:34:39.360 --> 0:34:43.600
<v Speaker 2>be like a person. A person was the first to say,

0:34:44.200 --> 0:34:47.759
<v Speaker 2>look at that, Yeah, what is that? Do you know

0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:49.440
<v Speaker 2>what I mean? Like picture it? Right? You don't think

0:34:49.480 --> 0:34:53.440
<v Speaker 2>about the fact that someone that they were going like, look,

0:34:54.320 --> 0:34:55.560
<v Speaker 2>never seen one of those before.

0:34:56.560 --> 0:34:57.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's true.

0:34:57.960 --> 0:35:01.479
<v Speaker 2>It's just so hard. It happened so much much, right,

0:35:01.600 --> 0:35:04.000
<v Speaker 2>it happened hundreds of times over again, but it's so

0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:05.799
<v Speaker 2>hard to picture what that would have been, like, I.

0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:08.839
<v Speaker 1>Know, and it's a fascinating thing to imagine, you know.

0:35:08.880 --> 0:35:13.239
<v Speaker 1>I will say I've read an account one time by

0:35:14.719 --> 0:35:20.080
<v Speaker 1>it was an anthropologist who was arguing that we as humans,

0:35:20.160 --> 0:35:24.200
<v Speaker 1>because you know, most primates do have an aversion to snakes,

0:35:24.640 --> 0:35:28.320
<v Speaker 1>that we may even coming down through an arctic filter

0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:32.359
<v Speaker 1>like that, and having been not around snakes for who

0:35:32.360 --> 0:35:36.640
<v Speaker 1>knows fifteen thousand years or twenty thousand or whatever, that

0:35:36.719 --> 0:35:41.200
<v Speaker 1>we would have had a genetic memory of a snake

0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:44.680
<v Speaker 1>being alarming and hit. One of his arguments about that

0:35:44.840 --> 0:35:48.279
<v Speaker 1>was that he said, notice how easy it is to

0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:51.960
<v Speaker 1>teach a child not to reach out and touch a

0:35:52.000 --> 0:35:54.920
<v Speaker 1>snake or a spider. But it's hard to teach them

0:35:54.960 --> 0:35:57.120
<v Speaker 1>not to walk across the street in front of traffic

0:35:57.480 --> 0:36:01.680
<v Speaker 1>or not stick their hands in an outlet. But if

0:36:01.680 --> 0:36:04.920
<v Speaker 1>they get the whole spider and sake thing really fast.

0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:07.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, it's a great point. And that's why it

0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:11.680
<v Speaker 2>would be so good to have footage of this first

0:36:11.680 --> 0:36:14.279
<v Speaker 2>snake encounter. That's the thing to see if he just

0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:17.319
<v Speaker 2>tried to jump on it and grab it to bring

0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:22.200
<v Speaker 2>it home to show everybody, or if he thought, like, eah, yeah,

0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:24.319
<v Speaker 2>something about that thing. I don't know what it is,

0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:25.120
<v Speaker 2>but I like it.

0:36:25.840 --> 0:36:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that may be the reaction something about it. Huh,

0:36:29.560 --> 0:36:30.879
<v Speaker 1>you want to get a slithering thing.

0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:33.600
<v Speaker 2>You don't need to get too many pages into the Bible,

0:36:33.600 --> 0:36:37.960
<v Speaker 2>and there's a snake. He's not a good guy.

0:36:38.680 --> 0:36:42.400
<v Speaker 1>No, that's that's true. But yeah, so somebody did see

0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:45.279
<v Speaker 1>as you have set us up for. Somebody did see

0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:47.160
<v Speaker 1>a coyote for the first time. And you know, the

0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:50.040
<v Speaker 1>thing that I was fascinated by when I sat down

0:36:50.640 --> 0:36:53.640
<v Speaker 1>to work on this podcast, and this one comes out

0:36:53.680 --> 0:36:58.680
<v Speaker 1>of my book Coyote America. When I was working on

0:36:58.680 --> 0:37:02.840
<v Speaker 1>that book, I was confronted with writing this chapter about

0:37:02.880 --> 0:37:07.000
<v Speaker 1>this animal that was a knew was one of the

0:37:07.040 --> 0:37:11.840
<v Speaker 1>most significant deities in North American history. The oldest deity

0:37:11.880 --> 0:37:15.000
<v Speaker 1>of which we have, the oldest literary figure actually of

0:37:15.040 --> 0:37:18.880
<v Speaker 1>which we have any kind of knowledge, is Coyote with

0:37:18.920 --> 0:37:23.120
<v Speaker 1>a capital C, this little canid that so many Native

0:37:23.120 --> 0:37:25.520
<v Speaker 1>people made into a kind of a deity, or a

0:37:25.560 --> 0:37:30.440
<v Speaker 1>semidity at least. And what I was confronted with was

0:37:31.200 --> 0:37:33.839
<v Speaker 1>about one hundred and twenty five years or so ago,

0:37:34.000 --> 0:37:39.960
<v Speaker 1>ethnographers interviewing Native people and collecting their stories, their creation stories,

0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:43.000
<v Speaker 1>and whatever stories they could, and then followed by a

0:37:43.040 --> 0:37:45.560
<v Speaker 1>whole group of folk lories who came along one hundred

0:37:45.640 --> 0:37:48.400
<v Speaker 1>years ago, and we're doing the same thing with Native people.

0:37:48.840 --> 0:37:54.120
<v Speaker 1>They collected thousands of coyote stories. Every group you talk

0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:57.840
<v Speaker 1>to seem to have twenty or fifty or seventy or

0:37:57.880 --> 0:38:02.719
<v Speaker 1>one hundred coyote stories. And so I was trying to

0:38:02.760 --> 0:38:06.960
<v Speaker 1>make sense of all of that and once again kind

0:38:06.960 --> 0:38:12.280
<v Speaker 1>of realizing, all right, a chapter in a book, you know, Okay,

0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:15.879
<v Speaker 1>it can be maybe twenty five pages long here, and

0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:19.799
<v Speaker 1>I've got hundreds of these things, so I can't do,

0:38:20.520 --> 0:38:22.359
<v Speaker 1>you know, just kind of a listing of every one

0:38:22.400 --> 0:38:24.520
<v Speaker 1>of them in some kind of summary. I have to

0:38:24.560 --> 0:38:28.359
<v Speaker 1>try to figure out what they were all about, what

0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:32.239
<v Speaker 1>they meant. And the ready example that seemed to be

0:38:32.280 --> 0:38:35.560
<v Speaker 1>out there in the existing literature was that Coyote was

0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:38.640
<v Speaker 1>one of these trickster figures that we have around the world,

0:38:38.719 --> 0:38:41.120
<v Speaker 1>low key among the Norse, for example. I mean, most

0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:44.680
<v Speaker 1>cultures have some record of a trickster figure. But as

0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:47.480
<v Speaker 1>I kept reading these things, I kind of decided, you know,

0:38:47.520 --> 0:38:50.359
<v Speaker 1>and I don't know if anybody else believes me on this,

0:38:51.160 --> 0:38:55.399
<v Speaker 1>but what I decided about this was that we had

0:38:55.440 --> 0:38:59.680
<v Speaker 1>actually kind of missed the point in talking about Coyote

0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:04.440
<v Speaker 1>as a trickster, because him being a trickster was not

0:39:04.680 --> 0:39:07.760
<v Speaker 1>really the point of what these stories were all about.

0:39:08.040 --> 0:39:12.280
<v Speaker 1>What these stories are all about is why the trick works,

0:39:12.920 --> 0:39:16.320
<v Speaker 1>on whoever it is who's being tricked, and the reason

0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:18.279
<v Speaker 1>the trick works. And this is what kind of gave

0:39:18.280 --> 0:39:20.640
<v Speaker 1>me the insight into the sort of stories I ended

0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:23.719
<v Speaker 1>up telling in that chapter, is that the reason the

0:39:23.760 --> 0:39:27.279
<v Speaker 1>trick works is because of human nature, because of our

0:39:27.440 --> 0:39:32.200
<v Speaker 1>own foibles and our ability to fall for things because

0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:36.640
<v Speaker 1>we are glutton us or where jealous are you know,

0:39:36.640 --> 0:39:42.880
<v Speaker 1>we're narcissistic or whatever. It's like the Seven Deadly Sins.

0:39:43.239 --> 0:39:46.520
<v Speaker 1>That's kind of what many of the coyotes stories are about.

0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:53.120
<v Speaker 1>And so they're actually instruction in human nature and how

0:39:53.160 --> 0:39:58.000
<v Speaker 1>easy it is to fool somebody or trick somebody because

0:39:58.000 --> 0:40:01.319
<v Speaker 1>of who human beings are. To me, that seemed to

0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:03.680
<v Speaker 1>be a more interesting thing about these stories than that

0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:05.600
<v Speaker 1>just coyote was a trickster.

0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:10.880
<v Speaker 2>I think.

0:40:12.160 --> 0:40:18.080
<v Speaker 3>Obviously, this is a story of people projecting ideas and

0:40:18.680 --> 0:40:22.520
<v Speaker 3>values and thoughts on this animal. But there's a reason.

0:40:23.640 --> 0:40:27.960
<v Speaker 3>There's also a biological basis for it. Right, There's a

0:40:28.000 --> 0:40:34.000
<v Speaker 3>reason it's not rock stories or snake stories or you know,

0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:35.640
<v Speaker 3>turkey stories.

0:40:35.719 --> 0:40:37.040
<v Speaker 1>Right. I wonder if you.

0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:40.279
<v Speaker 3>Can kind of you obviously covered it in the podcast,

0:40:40.360 --> 0:40:43.360
<v Speaker 3>but distilled down what it is about the coyote. It

0:40:43.360 --> 0:40:45.320
<v Speaker 3>makes it such a natural foil for people.

0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:50.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a great question, because obviously it's like ten

0:40:50.360 --> 0:40:53.280
<v Speaker 1>thousand years ago or you know, further back in time

0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:56.759
<v Speaker 1>when people are first here, and we don't know how

0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:59.920
<v Speaker 1>far back the coyote stories go whether they were present

0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:04.120
<v Speaker 1>during the actual Padiolyithic where there were pleciscene stories, or

0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:09.120
<v Speaker 1>they occurred after that. But they're obviously old. There doesn't

0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:12.560
<v Speaker 1>seem to be anything any older. And so what you

0:41:12.680 --> 0:41:16.840
<v Speaker 1>have to then kind of come up with an explanation

0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:21.760
<v Speaker 1>for us why pick that animal? I mean, if indeed

0:41:21.800 --> 0:41:25.120
<v Speaker 1>the stories go back into the Pleistocene. I mean, you've

0:41:25.120 --> 0:41:28.759
<v Speaker 1>got mammoths around, you've got saber toothed cats. If you're

0:41:28.800 --> 0:41:32.520
<v Speaker 1>looking for a deity, you know, what better deity can

0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:35.440
<v Speaker 1>you come up with than a step lion or something.

0:41:36.160 --> 0:41:39.040
<v Speaker 1>And yet the animal that's come down to us in

0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:43.720
<v Speaker 1>North American history as the animal they pick is this little, small,

0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:50.000
<v Speaker 1>thirty five pound, you know, junior wolf. And so there

0:41:50.040 --> 0:41:53.120
<v Speaker 1>had to be an explanation for that. And as I

0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:56.160
<v Speaker 1>cast about for explanations to try to figure it out,

0:41:56.239 --> 0:41:58.279
<v Speaker 1>I thought, well, okay, so one of the things is

0:41:58.440 --> 0:42:02.200
<v Speaker 1>clearly coyotes are survivors of the extinctions in a way

0:42:02.200 --> 0:42:06.400
<v Speaker 1>that sabertoothed cats or ground slaws or step lions aren't

0:42:06.560 --> 0:42:11.239
<v Speaker 1>those all disappear. Coyotes survive, so they're still around. And

0:42:11.320 --> 0:42:15.120
<v Speaker 1>therefore you've come up with a deity figure that is

0:42:15.160 --> 0:42:18.200
<v Speaker 1>still present in your world that you get to see

0:42:18.560 --> 0:42:22.680
<v Speaker 1>or at least see some examples of. But the other

0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:25.600
<v Speaker 1>thing I decided that probably played a role in it,

0:42:25.680 --> 0:42:27.600
<v Speaker 1>and this is a result of reading a lot of

0:42:27.600 --> 0:42:34.680
<v Speaker 1>those coyote tales from the various native groups. Coyote, the

0:42:34.840 --> 0:42:40.480
<v Speaker 1>animal out there in nature, is a supremely intelligent creature.

0:42:40.920 --> 0:42:43.839
<v Speaker 1>That's why they have survived down to the present day.

0:42:44.320 --> 0:42:46.520
<v Speaker 1>No matter what we've been able to throw at them,

0:42:46.560 --> 0:42:51.720
<v Speaker 1>whatever poison, whatever trapping, whatever helicopter shooting, they are still

0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:54.960
<v Speaker 1>here and they're not going anywhere. In fact, they've spread

0:42:55.000 --> 0:42:57.920
<v Speaker 1>across all of North America and are becoming one of

0:42:57.920 --> 0:43:00.960
<v Speaker 1>the first animals since the places seen us the Isthmus

0:43:01.000 --> 0:43:05.160
<v Speaker 1>of Panama into South America. So there's something about them.

0:43:05.560 --> 0:43:10.640
<v Speaker 1>They're obviously extremely successful. That success is based on I

0:43:10.640 --> 0:43:16.000
<v Speaker 1>think an observable intelligence, and I think native people thought

0:43:16.120 --> 0:43:18.600
<v Speaker 1>of them, And that's what I argue in Coyte America

0:43:18.680 --> 0:43:22.640
<v Speaker 1>is they thought of them as avatars, as stand ins

0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:25.840
<v Speaker 1>for humans in the world, where you could watch the

0:43:25.920 --> 0:43:29.040
<v Speaker 1>coyote as it went through the world and watch what

0:43:29.160 --> 0:43:32.920
<v Speaker 1>it did and how it survived, and think this is

0:43:33.239 --> 0:43:36.600
<v Speaker 1>boint that's a good example of how you do that.

0:43:37.280 --> 0:43:41.360
<v Speaker 1>And so as an avatar for humans, as a stand

0:43:41.400 --> 0:43:44.320
<v Speaker 1>in for humans in the world, I think you start

0:43:44.400 --> 0:43:47.680
<v Speaker 1>to get some recognition of you know, this is the

0:43:47.800 --> 0:43:51.440
<v Speaker 1>kind of deity figure they came up with it. And

0:43:51.480 --> 0:43:53.239
<v Speaker 1>we can talk about this if you guys want to.

0:43:53.360 --> 0:43:55.600
<v Speaker 1>But one of the interesting things about coyote to me

0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:58.960
<v Speaker 1>is this is a very different deity figure than say

0:43:59.040 --> 0:44:03.560
<v Speaker 1>a Jesus or something or or Mohammed. I mean, this

0:44:03.600 --> 0:44:08.080
<v Speaker 1>is not a god figure who lives the perfect life

0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:12.319
<v Speaker 1>and offers himself up as an example for everybody else

0:44:12.360 --> 0:44:17.960
<v Speaker 1>because of his perfection. In fact, he's kind of a

0:44:18.040 --> 0:44:23.279
<v Speaker 1>deity figure that you laugh at because he exhibits so

0:44:23.480 --> 0:44:27.520
<v Speaker 1>many of the obvious characteristics of human beings.

0:44:27.520 --> 0:44:33.279
<v Speaker 2>Something I can't help but wonder about with coyotes is

0:44:33.760 --> 0:44:39.000
<v Speaker 2>what was their initial behavior like around people? And when

0:44:39.040 --> 0:44:41.160
<v Speaker 2>I say that, what I'm referring to is it's really

0:44:41.239 --> 0:44:48.200
<v Speaker 2>well documented that animals gradually learn how to deal with people.

0:44:49.000 --> 0:44:52.400
<v Speaker 2>And we have some like pretty recent scenarios right of

0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:57.440
<v Speaker 2>like whalers out in the Pacific or elsewhere coming across

0:44:57.600 --> 0:45:02.040
<v Speaker 2>islands that hadn't been previously alanized by humans and like

0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:04.040
<v Speaker 2>you can just walk up and pick things up. Birds

0:45:04.080 --> 0:45:07.680
<v Speaker 2>are landing on you. They have no idea what you are, right,

0:45:07.840 --> 0:45:12.000
<v Speaker 2>that's exactly right, Yeah, iological first contact. Yeah, it helps

0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:18.440
<v Speaker 2>you kind of explain, well, how we're clovist hunters. How

0:45:18.440 --> 0:45:20.680
<v Speaker 2>are they able to kill a man with a spear?

0:45:20.719 --> 0:45:23.120
<v Speaker 2>And it maybe it might have been that they would

0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:26.040
<v Speaker 2>walk up and jab it in the heart like it might.

0:45:25.920 --> 0:45:28.359
<v Speaker 1>Have been while it stood and looked at them. Yeah.

0:45:28.480 --> 0:45:34.640
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, so picture too, if you picture like is

0:45:34.920 --> 0:45:38.600
<v Speaker 2>kind of sly and opportunistic as that animal is, picture

0:45:38.640 --> 0:45:42.080
<v Speaker 2>it being from his perspective seeing a human or a

0:45:42.080 --> 0:45:45.200
<v Speaker 2>group of humans who got a camp and they got

0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:49.080
<v Speaker 2>stuff they killed, and you know, they got dogs running around,

0:45:49.480 --> 0:45:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Like what is his attitude toward them? And it might

0:45:52.200 --> 0:45:53.640
<v Speaker 2>have been that they might have been just one of

0:45:53.680 --> 0:45:55.719
<v Speaker 2>the most fast. They could have been one of the

0:45:55.760 --> 0:45:59.960
<v Speaker 2>more fascinating things to engage with as they kind of

0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:02.200
<v Speaker 2>tried to figure out what this new thing is.

0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:07.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think you're probably right in every bit of that, Stephen,

0:46:07.560 --> 0:46:12.200
<v Speaker 1>because I think, for one thing, I think coyotes would

0:46:12.200 --> 0:46:14.799
<v Speaker 1>have regarded the arrival of humans as this is a

0:46:14.840 --> 0:46:18.800
<v Speaker 1>whole new opportunity. I mean, I mean we could hardly

0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:21.840
<v Speaker 1>have imagined how great this might be. And that, of

0:46:21.840 --> 0:46:24.240
<v Speaker 1>course was true for coyotes up until about one hundred

0:46:24.400 --> 0:46:27.880
<v Speaker 1>years ago or so. But I think one of the

0:46:27.920 --> 0:46:30.920
<v Speaker 1>reasons that that coyotes have always hung around humans. And

0:46:30.960 --> 0:46:32.600
<v Speaker 1>I mean, when I was doing the work on this book,

0:46:32.640 --> 0:46:36.160
<v Speaker 1>I was looking at archaeological investigations of say Chaco in

0:46:36.200 --> 0:46:40.440
<v Speaker 1>places like that, and there's evidence of coyotes in the

0:46:40.840 --> 0:46:43.839
<v Speaker 1>in the city itself, so that made me think. And

0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:48.000
<v Speaker 1>of course in Mexico City, where the name comes from,

0:46:48.160 --> 0:46:53.400
<v Speaker 1>coyote is from the original no Wat language of the Aztecs.

0:46:54.360 --> 0:46:57.840
<v Speaker 1>It's yeah, it comes from from the no Wat language.

0:46:57.920 --> 0:46:59.880
<v Speaker 2>And I forgot.

0:47:01.640 --> 0:47:05.399
<v Speaker 1>Coyotl is how it's spelled in the language. But the

0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:09.680
<v Speaker 1>L is silent, and so it would be pronounced coyote

0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:13.960
<v Speaker 1>serve of the way you know, many of us you

0:47:14.120 --> 0:47:17.279
<v Speaker 1>obviously pronounced it with just two syllables. I'm sort of

0:47:17.320 --> 0:47:20.600
<v Speaker 1>more out of the you know, the cartoon phase of

0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:25.160
<v Speaker 1>rod and coyote, yeah, Wiley, so I do three syllables.

0:47:25.160 --> 0:47:29.480
<v Speaker 1>But it was an animal that was I mean, there

0:47:29.520 --> 0:47:34.680
<v Speaker 1>are suburbs of Mexico City named after coyotes, so I

0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:38.520
<v Speaker 1>think it was an animal that was very present around

0:47:38.640 --> 0:47:41.279
<v Speaker 1>human camps and villages, and of course one of the

0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:45.640
<v Speaker 1>reasons it's an urban animal. Today, coyotes have entered cities

0:47:45.640 --> 0:47:49.480
<v Speaker 1>all over the United States in large part because everywhere

0:47:49.560 --> 0:47:52.600
<v Speaker 1>humans are, we generate a lot of rats and mice

0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:56.200
<v Speaker 1>and that's one of their favorite prey, and so the

0:47:56.239 --> 0:47:59.359
<v Speaker 1>presence of humans means, wow, we're going to have an

0:47:59.360 --> 0:48:02.399
<v Speaker 1>abundance of the goodies that we like to go for.

0:48:03.320 --> 0:48:05.719
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I think they were probably from from a

0:48:05.960 --> 0:48:10.520
<v Speaker 1>very early on in their relationship, humans and coyotes were interacting,

0:48:10.600 --> 0:48:12.400
<v Speaker 1>and that could be one of the reasons why, of

0:48:12.440 --> 0:48:17.160
<v Speaker 1>course that they decided, Wow, these guys, these guys, they

0:48:17.200 --> 0:48:20.480
<v Speaker 1>can functions as a figure that tells us a lot

0:48:20.520 --> 0:48:21.240
<v Speaker 1>about ourselves.

0:48:22.760 --> 0:48:26.799
<v Speaker 2>Of course, you're writing about and talking about the animals

0:48:26.840 --> 0:48:30.360
<v Speaker 2>that these cultures talked about, because there's there's something there.

0:48:30.800 --> 0:48:39.600
<v Speaker 2>Do you ever wonder take the apostle or anything? Right,

0:48:39.880 --> 0:48:43.680
<v Speaker 2>let's take the apostle. There must have been there has

0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:47.279
<v Speaker 2>to have been like an understanding of it. I mean,

0:48:47.320 --> 0:48:51.239
<v Speaker 2>there's an understanding of it. As it produces an oil, right,

0:48:51.320 --> 0:48:54.640
<v Speaker 2>it's really soft fur. The leather's very poor quality, Like

0:48:54.680 --> 0:48:58.080
<v Speaker 2>there's probably like that function. But you know what I mean,

0:48:58.160 --> 0:49:02.120
<v Speaker 2>like like you have you find all these dozens and

0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:06.279
<v Speaker 2>dozens of stories about myths and creation stories and things

0:49:06.360 --> 0:49:10.120
<v Speaker 2>about coyotes. Then you have all these these these religious

0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:15.040
<v Speaker 2>colts built around bears, right, all the all the imagery

0:49:15.680 --> 0:49:20.880
<v Speaker 2>and religious understanding about buffalo. Were there some things that?

0:49:20.920 --> 0:49:22.879
<v Speaker 2>Does it seem like there was some animals were just

0:49:23.000 --> 0:49:25.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of there, like you know, was the apossum just

0:49:25.239 --> 0:49:28.640
<v Speaker 2>kind of there or did it have a spiritual role?

0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:34.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, I have not actually encountered a spiritual a possum

0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:35.960
<v Speaker 1>in any of I reading.

0:49:36.280 --> 0:49:38.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean neither that they just don't get their due now,

0:49:38.440 --> 0:49:40.480
<v Speaker 2>they don't get there. It's like it's noteworthy. He can

0:49:40.520 --> 0:49:41.520
<v Speaker 2>hang from his tail, I.

0:49:41.440 --> 0:49:44.239
<v Speaker 1>Mean, can his sale. He can certainly do things. And

0:49:44.280 --> 0:49:46.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, Native people were obviously they were really close

0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:49.840
<v Speaker 1>observers of all this kind of natural history, and so

0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:53.960
<v Speaker 1>they had a tremendous amount of information. Oh, I'm sure

0:49:54.280 --> 0:49:58.040
<v Speaker 1>about because it was for one thing. I mean, you

0:49:58.120 --> 0:50:02.160
<v Speaker 1>have generation after generation hand down stories. But it's part

0:50:02.200 --> 0:50:05.160
<v Speaker 1>of the entertainment that you engage in in the world

0:50:05.200 --> 0:50:08.600
<v Speaker 1>when you're living in a natural kind of setting and

0:50:09.080 --> 0:50:13.120
<v Speaker 1>engaging the world as a hunter. Gatherer or a early

0:50:13.120 --> 0:50:17.080
<v Speaker 1>agricultural which or something. You're observing things, probably in a

0:50:17.120 --> 0:50:19.920
<v Speaker 1>way that we don't really do as a result of

0:50:19.960 --> 0:50:22.040
<v Speaker 1>the way we live in the twenty first century. So

0:50:22.080 --> 0:50:23.479
<v Speaker 1>I think they knew a hell of a lot about

0:50:23.480 --> 0:50:26.439
<v Speaker 1>a lot of animals. But I've noted and I talk

0:50:26.520 --> 0:50:31.000
<v Speaker 1>about in one of the chapters I think it was

0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:33.200
<v Speaker 1>or one of the podcasts I think was a last one.

0:50:34.239 --> 0:50:40.680
<v Speaker 1>I talked about Joseph Epps Brown's interviews with Lakota elders

0:50:40.719 --> 0:50:42.800
<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen thirties, and he had got the interview.

0:50:42.800 --> 0:50:45.880
<v Speaker 1>He was a religious scholar of religion who taught at

0:50:45.880 --> 0:50:50.279
<v Speaker 1>the University of Montana in fact, and he got to

0:50:50.360 --> 0:50:54.680
<v Speaker 1>interview some of the people who had been present still

0:50:54.719 --> 0:51:00.200
<v Speaker 1>alive as young kids on the buffalo hunting planes. By

0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:03.240
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen thirties, they were in their late eighties and nineties,

0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:05.920
<v Speaker 1>but they still remembered a lot, and they knew a

0:51:05.920 --> 0:51:10.560
<v Speaker 1>lot about the you know, the prior to reservation life period.

0:51:11.480 --> 0:51:16.360
<v Speaker 1>And Brown quizzed them about the animals that had power,

0:51:17.200 --> 0:51:21.680
<v Speaker 1>and the animals that they indicated were the ones not

0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:26.759
<v Speaker 1>like possums, but they were animals like so bears had

0:51:26.800 --> 0:51:30.080
<v Speaker 1>particular power over underground, over the underground, because of course

0:51:30.080 --> 0:51:34.359
<v Speaker 1>they hibernate in the winter. Eagles have particular power in

0:51:34.440 --> 0:51:39.920
<v Speaker 1>the air. Bison are associated with the winds. And one

0:51:39.960 --> 0:51:43.920
<v Speaker 1>of the things that josepheps Brown discovered from these interviews

0:51:44.000 --> 0:51:47.520
<v Speaker 1>is that the Lakota idea was that all of these

0:51:48.239 --> 0:51:53.960
<v Speaker 1>all of those creatures, bears, eagles, bison, along with dragonflies,

0:51:55.080 --> 0:52:00.920
<v Speaker 1>shared a special power that they called umi or yume,

0:52:01.920 --> 0:52:06.920
<v Speaker 1>which was whirlwind power. They all had the ability, and

0:52:06.960 --> 0:52:11.960
<v Speaker 1>this was a highly sought after power by native people because,

0:52:12.640 --> 0:52:16.719
<v Speaker 1>for one thing, if you engage whirlwind power, it made

0:52:16.719 --> 0:52:21.440
<v Speaker 1>you difficult to evidently kill in a battle. But it

0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:24.440
<v Speaker 1>also was a kind of a special power that controlled

0:52:24.440 --> 0:52:29.240
<v Speaker 1>the winds, and bison especially were associated with winds because

0:52:29.600 --> 0:52:32.239
<v Speaker 1>they knew that when the wind began to blow from

0:52:32.320 --> 0:52:36.319
<v Speaker 1>the south, bison herds would start to appear. When the

0:52:36.320 --> 0:52:38.239
<v Speaker 1>wind blew from the north, and of course what they

0:52:38.280 --> 0:52:42.080
<v Speaker 1>were describing were the big annual migrations where you start

0:52:42.160 --> 0:52:45.319
<v Speaker 1>getting northers and the bison herds start migrating south onto

0:52:45.320 --> 0:52:48.080
<v Speaker 1>the plains. When the wind blows in the north. The

0:52:48.239 --> 0:52:50.920
<v Speaker 1>bison are absent when it comes from the south, and

0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:54.640
<v Speaker 1>so all those kind of features were associated with animals.

0:52:54.640 --> 0:52:57.400
<v Speaker 1>I think that we would think of as charismatic in

0:52:57.440 --> 0:53:02.000
<v Speaker 1>some way, and probably not. I haven't seen anything that

0:53:02.040 --> 0:53:04.520
<v Speaker 1>he had to say about possums, but.

0:53:04.640 --> 0:53:08.680
<v Speaker 2>I spent uh, I spent a little bit of time

0:53:08.800 --> 0:53:15.080
<v Speaker 2>with Ammerindian group in South America, the Chimane, and I

0:53:15.200 --> 0:53:17.799
<v Speaker 2>was out with them hunting one time and they were

0:53:19.120 --> 0:53:24.640
<v Speaker 2>very eager to get a howler monkey, and they get

0:53:24.640 --> 0:53:27.000
<v Speaker 2>a holler monkey, and they had some handful of other

0:53:27.040 --> 0:53:28.879
<v Speaker 2>things they ate that are just not part of our

0:53:29.560 --> 0:53:33.759
<v Speaker 2>food repertoire. And one night we're out and there's a possum.

0:53:35.000 --> 0:53:37.440
<v Speaker 2>This is in Bolivia. There's a possum on a tree,

0:53:38.600 --> 0:53:41.640
<v Speaker 2>and I'm thinking to myself, Man, that possum is in

0:53:41.800 --> 0:53:45.719
<v Speaker 2>bad shape. If these guys like monkeys, they're gonna love

0:53:45.760 --> 0:53:46.680
<v Speaker 2>that possum.

0:53:46.920 --> 0:53:49.320
<v Speaker 1>And he just just went right.

0:53:51.239 --> 0:53:54.800
<v Speaker 2>It's just I was like, Wow, there is something about

0:53:54.800 --> 0:53:59.040
<v Speaker 2>the possum. Wasn't even worth commenting.

0:54:01.440 --> 0:54:03.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well maybe that, Yeah, that was a special power

0:54:03.960 --> 0:54:05.280
<v Speaker 1>that made the possum invisible.

0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:10.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, Dan, thank you man, appreciate you taking time to

0:54:10.160 --> 0:54:12.280
<v Speaker 2>talking and looking forward to the next show as usual.

0:54:12.520 --> 0:54:13.640
<v Speaker 1>All right, thank you Steven