1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Body Dots with Joseph Scott more. What do you think 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: is the most common question that I have been asked 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: over the course of my career as a death investigator. Well, 4 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: my benchmark for that has been the most common question 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: is what's the worst thing you've ever seen? And you know, 6 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: worse comes in degrees, and what might be really offensive 7 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: and bad to you in the realm of death might 8 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: not even register on my meter. It's not that I'm 9 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: some great guru or something like that. It's just that 10 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: after a period of time, you're exposed to so much 11 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: and you could say that. I bet you could say 12 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: that about any occupation out there. But the other statement 13 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: that is made is not a question. It generally goes 14 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: like this, I don't see how in the world you 15 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: can do what you do? That is the question. It's 16 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: more of a statement. But I've asked myself that question 17 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: because I would be around things that most people cannot 18 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: even begin to imagine in their workaday lives, and I 19 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: would ask that question to myself, how do I do 20 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: these things? The things that you see? But you know 21 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: what it comes down to, it's all in how you 22 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: frame it. Today we're going to talk about human decomposition 23 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: from the investigative perspective. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 24 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: is Bodybacks, Brother, Dave. Let me tell you another question 25 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: that I am asked many times, or statements that people make, 26 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: there's two of them. When it comes to the dead. 27 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: People will say that human decay, a decaying human remain 28 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: has a very particular smell. And then they will also 29 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: say that bodies that have burned have a very particular smell. 30 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: How can these two things be because first off, there's 31 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: no scientific validation for those two statements. There's no way 32 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: that you can even qualify those you know, what are 33 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: you measuring against? Because I got to tell you, I've 34 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: been around decomposing hogs. They really don't smell any different 35 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: than human decaying remains. And I've been to barbecues, Dave. 36 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: I've been to barbecues, and I've got to tell you, 37 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: I've smelled very familiar smells at gatherings that only exist 38 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: in some people's nightmares. And I hate it when those 39 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: thoughts enter into my mind because I've paid a price 40 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: for it over the years, just those remembrances, and I 41 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: think that any human being is like that, that you 42 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: have these. I hate the term trigger. I despise that term. 43 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: It's such a generalized term and you never know really 44 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: what anybody means by that. But there's something in our 45 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: mind that conjures up these familiar smells. I remember the 46 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: smell of my grandmother's fried chicken, which is probably as 47 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: close to the ambrosia of the God Odds as you 48 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: can possibly get in my mond, you know, thinking about right, 49 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: and that's a very pleasant thing. 50 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: Now we have the sensory memories, you know, of certain 51 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: times of the day and certain times of the night, 52 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: especially if you have a special time of the year 53 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: that you prefer over others, you know. Yeah, and you 54 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: have that early morning drive that reminds you of at 55 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: a certain time in college when you had to run 56 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: the USA today you know route around town to pay 57 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: your college tuition and stuff like that. 58 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 3: You know. 59 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, But I wondered about you mentioned being at a 60 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 2: barbecue and smelling something very similar to that you smelled. 61 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 2: I don't a scene, and I had to remember a 62 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: story we did on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace where 63 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 2: a woman cooked up her husband and served her at 64 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: a neighborhood barbecue and nobody recognized it, you know, And 65 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 2: that was my first thought. I thought it would smell different. 66 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 2: I thought human remains would smell different than a cattle. 67 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 2: I just assumed that. But I don't remember smelling the 68 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 2: difference between chicken and you. 69 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: Be well, I got to tell you, you know, I 70 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: can't speak for everybody's experiences out there. I just know 71 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: that I've I've other than people that are directly involved 72 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: in my field, I've got a much larger statistical sampling, 73 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: so I've had it happen over and over again. And yeah, 74 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: that that smell that you get with both of these 75 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: that were You know that we're currently discussing whether it 76 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: is burned human remains or whether it is decomposing human remains. 77 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: And don't get me started on burned remains that are decomposing, 78 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: because that's an entirely different level. If I if I 79 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: had to rely on my olfactory census in order to 80 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: be an effective investigator, I don't know how much of 81 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: a success I would be because look, I don't even 82 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: believe my site most of the time. 83 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 3: You know, I have to go aheack and here you're 84 00:05:58,920 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: lying on. 85 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: Your line eyes. Yeah and so uh, but you know, 86 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: decomposition is a big it's a big part of what 87 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: we have to analyze. And I have to take our 88 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: friends back to a very recent episode that we did, 89 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: and this is kind of how I want to frame this. 90 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: This episode out we talked about post mortem change right 91 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: and what I think was a really good episode. I 92 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: urge anybody to go back and listen to this. It 93 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: was just a couple of weeks ago, and we talked 94 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: about it in a micro sense, and that's generally like 95 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: when you're talking to investigators out at the scene. One 96 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: of the first questions they will ask an investigator is 97 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: they always say, hey, doc, how long how long do 98 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: you think that it's been? You know, how long do 99 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: you think it's been? Oh? Yeah, yeah, that's one of 100 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: the big things. Yeah, well once you've once you've started 101 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: an exam and yeah, because they they think that you're 102 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: like this scientific genius. You know that you and I'm not. 103 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: You show up at a scene and you begin to 104 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: do all of these high end calculations and you're looking 105 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: at the body, and you know, you can look at 106 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: the body and say, well, she whiz, Jim, this guy's 107 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: been dead for you know, I don't know, three hours 108 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: and thirty three minutes. That's you can't do that. No, Lord, no, 109 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: nobody can do that. And if they tell you they 110 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: can do it, don't walk run away from that person 111 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: because they're a liar. It's an empirical impossibility. 112 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, ask you something you brought up that I've got 113 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: to ask. Yeah, because you've mentioned the smell of a 114 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: dead body. 115 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you did. 116 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: Mention that there's a difference between the smell of a 117 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: dead body and a decomposing body. When yeah, people talk 118 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: about the smell a unique smell of decomposition. Most of 119 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: us are not around decomposition in any part of our life. 120 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: We know when we do smell it, it is going 121 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: to be and it is going to be a unique 122 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: smell to us. When I reminded of Cindy Anthony, Casey 123 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: Anthony's mother, when, oh, yeah, she called police because Casey 124 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: Anthony had taken off with their car and hadn't returned it. 125 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: And she called to report, come arrest my daughter for 126 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 2: stealing my car. And they found out it had been towed, 127 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: and she went to the place to get it back 128 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: and when they opened the trunk, it stunk, and she said, 129 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 2: it smells like a dead body's been in there. Now 130 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: that was said in the first moments that we knew 131 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: of Kaylee Anthony. It smells like a dead body has 132 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 2: been in there. And the comparison was, it doesn't smell 133 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: like trash. We all know how bad trash can smell, 134 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: and this took her was different and stronger and just 135 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: not trash. 136 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, with trash you'll get this kind 137 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: of And of course this is all heavily depended upon 138 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: the mixture that you're talking about. With everyday household trash, 139 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: sometimes you can have this kind of sickening, sickly sweet 140 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: smell is the way I describe it many times. If 141 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: you're talking about refuse, refuse that we generate, okay, well, 142 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: that smells different than say, solid human waste or even 143 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: manure from you know, from hogs or cattle. You know, 144 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: Look where we live, Dave. It's a big agricultural area, 145 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: isn't it lovely? When the farmers go out and spread 146 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: manure on the fields and it's liquefied and it's going everywhere. 147 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: Lord help you if you live adjacent to this and listen, 148 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: I know why they have to do it, but that 149 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: is a very particular smell and. 150 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: If you have a five or six year old boy 151 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: with you, that you can make a lot of unique sound. 152 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that. 153 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, time it's worthwhile. Really, other than that, the windows 154 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 2: and pray the air right doesn't give out? 155 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, And look, you're looking toward the cotton crop. You 156 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: know that it's going to be harvested or corn or 157 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: whatever it is. And there's a method to that. But 158 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: when we begin to talk about human decomposition, I've had 159 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: people ask me that, and this is a legitimate question. 160 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: They'll say, I've never been around a decomposing body. What 161 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: does it smell like? And when you begin to think 162 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: about it. The only way I've been able and again 163 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: this is my own perspective, my little slice of the 164 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: pie here, from what I have observed consistently, the only 165 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: way I have really been able to describe it from me, 166 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: and it comes in varying degrees. It smells to me 167 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: like burning tires, which is a disgusting odor to me. 168 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: If you've ever smelled a tire that has been set 169 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: on fire. I know, people in service. I think back 170 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: to what happened in Somalia. You know there were burning 171 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: tires there. If you've ever been around a runaway fire 172 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: that happens at a tire factory, which I actually experienced 173 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: as a child. There was a tire company near us, 174 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: and the whole thing caught on fire burned for six months, 175 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: and so that smell was always in the air, and 176 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: it always hung with It's like kind of like burning rubber. 177 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: I guess is really how it smells. That's the way 178 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: I've always interpreted it. And everybody will come away with 179 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: their own their own take on it, and it's curious, 180 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: you know. I've encountered individuals, witnesses, finders, you know, over 181 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: the years, and they'll make these kind of passive comments, like, 182 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: you know, we we had smelled something, but we didn't 183 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: really know what it was. Sometimes it would be stronger 184 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: than other times. And a lot of that has to 185 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: do with something that we talked about in our first episode, 186 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: relative to post mortem interval in the immediate in the 187 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: micro sense, now we're talking macro in a broader sense. 188 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: A lot of that has to do with ambient ambient temperature. 189 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: As the heat in a location rises, you'll it the 190 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: smell becomes more profound at that moment in time, and 191 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: then as it cools you know, the smell will slightly 192 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: be knocked down, It'll still be there, but it's not 193 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 1: as quite as pervasive, if you will, So it's really 194 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: hard for the average person that's never been around it 195 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: to kind of comprehend it. I can tell you this. 196 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: Most people know. It's almost a primal instinct. They know 197 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: that they don't want to be around it. And that's why, 198 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, people ask me questions and they're living vicariously. 199 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: I know that they are. They want to be entertained. 200 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: That's why people ask me the question what's the worst 201 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 1: thing you've ever seen, which, in a way is kind 202 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: of disrespectful because that's like me coming to somebody saying, Okay, 203 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: what's the worst day you've ever had at work? Tell 204 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: me about it. They will say, well, what's the worst thing, 205 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: And many in my colleagues included, when people ask us 206 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: that question, some people will just not answer it. And 207 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: I have one friend in particular that will say, it's 208 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: none of your damn business. That's how they feel about it, 209 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: because you're asking somebody to relive an event that is 210 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: so shocking and so over the top. They're not saying, well, 211 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: what was it like to work? To work? A death, 212 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: they will say, what's the worst thing you've ever seen? 213 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: Because I got to tell you, my scale of worst 214 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: is a lot different, and a lot of my colleagues 215 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: is a lot different than the average person. So and 216 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: many times, particularly for those of us that have been 217 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: affected by PTSD and the things that we have to 218 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: struggle with and the wake of doing a job that 219 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: most people don't even think about, sometimes you'll be lulled 220 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 1: into a sense of security with people when they say, well, 221 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: what's the worst thing you've ever seen? You think that 222 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: they're asking you a therapeutic question. Well, once you unburden yourself, 223 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: that's not what they're doing. They're saying, dance for me, 224 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: entertain me, And so you know, you can get kind 225 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: of riled up about it. Sometimes I've developed a callous 226 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: to it now, I think at this point in my life. 227 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: But for a long time, particularly in the wake of 228 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: everything that I went through through therapy and all that 229 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: sort of said before that I would get really angry 230 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: when people would ask me that question. But I got 231 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: to tell you, just because something has impacted you doesn't 232 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: mean that there's not value in it. And I think 233 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: that that's important for us to understand when we're talking 234 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: about decompositional changes, because a lot can be learned from it, 235 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: and not just in the sense that it's something that 236 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: is connected with a death. It's actually, when you think 237 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: about it, just like birth, it's a natural biological process. 238 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: Death does in fact come to us. All that's not 239 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: just some kind of passive comment. And certainly, Dave, as 240 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: I've gotten let's say, more chronologically mature, right, I've realized 241 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: that I've got less life to live than I have lived, 242 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: and so you begin to think about these things. Death 243 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: does in fact come to us. But listen, it's it. 244 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: It's a natural process. It's just like birth. And I 245 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: remember the birth of my kids. I remember the birth 246 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: of my grandbabies and what a celebratory event that was. 247 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: And people don't look at death that same way. They don't. 248 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: They don't view it as a celebration. Some people will 249 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: try to say, well, it's a celebration of life when 250 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: we go to a funeral. Yeah it can be. It 251 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: can be, but you're still talking about the dead. And 252 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: one of the one of the things we do in 253 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: our field is, you know, we try to understand when 254 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: you get out beyond that kind of micro sensibility where 255 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: you're you're talking about hours. You're in a much broader 256 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: area here. When you talk about the decomposition of human remains. 257 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: It's a It's an incredible process when you think about it, 258 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: the changes that take place, and there is a measurement 259 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: to it, just like there is in the micro sense. 260 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: There's actually a measurement to it in a macro sense. 261 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: The only downside is we can't put that final point 262 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: on it. Dave. 263 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 2: When you were talking a minute ago about people asking 264 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: your worst, you know, tell me your best story, which 265 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: means the worst moment of your life at work, What 266 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: was it? And explain I want all the gory detail, 267 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: just like in the movies. And I have to think 268 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: of that and realizing that there was a first time 269 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 2: for everything, and I can't imagine that that was a 270 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 2: real treat either. That has to be one of those 271 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,959 Speaker 2: markers in your life. 272 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: It was, and it happened. It happened in the reverse 273 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: for me. I did not. I was not around a 274 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: profoundly decomposed body in the field the first time I 275 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 1: was around a profoundly decomposed body where you had these 276 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: massive changes post mortem changes that had taken place, was 277 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: actually in the morgue, and I was the person to 278 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: open the back on the table, and I remember and 279 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: I'd done. I'd done what we refer to as fresh 280 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: dead cases, you know, cases that had died within the 281 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: last day or two, you know, that had come in 282 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: from the field. And of course I started my career 283 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: in New Orleans. And let me tell you something, there 284 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: are a lot of decomposed bodies in Southware Louisiana, and 285 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: it all has to do with the environmental factors because heat, 286 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 1: as we know, speeds everything up. So we actually use 287 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: the term dcomp season down there because when you hit 288 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: down there, when you hit April, your last cool day 289 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: of the year is if you're lucky, it's going to 290 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: be marching South Louisiana. And so starting in April, you know, 291 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: we're ahead of the curb. When it comes to like 292 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: Alabama or moving north, bodies go really really quick. And 293 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: so I got to tell you, Dave, I had I 294 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 1: remember opening that bag and when I look down on 295 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: those remains and they were. 296 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 3: Blown, We're going to have to come back there. And 297 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 3: I didn't know that. 298 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: In color the lips were the lips were protruding Yeah, 299 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:52,719 Speaker 1: the tongue was protruding from the mouth swollen, and you 300 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 1: have to fix yourself, but sets your face like flint, 301 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: and you know, move forward because you have to understand. 302 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: And this is what I had to get passed. I 303 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: had to rely or lean into the science because I 304 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: knew that what I was looking at. I had to 305 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: try to unravel the mystery from a scientific standpoint, or 306 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: at least assist in this, and to try to collect 307 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: every bit of data I could. And I kind of 308 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: knew that this was going to happen, but I didn't 309 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: expect it to be as impactful for me. And so 310 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: when I got out to a scene where I had 311 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: my first decomposing body and it was a natural death, 312 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: it was I still remember it. It was an elderly 313 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: grandmother who had not been seen in three weeks probably, 314 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: and the grandchildren came to the house and they had 315 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: smelled something before they ever opened the door, and I 316 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: remember distinctly talking to them. They were saying, we couldn't 317 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: open the door. We knew it was going to be bad. 318 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,239 Speaker 1: And so the police obviously took the keys from them, 319 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: entered the house with their permission, and then they called 320 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: me out and when you see this decomposing body laying 321 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: in a bed and these changes are taking place, it's 322 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: very profound because again I go back to what I've 323 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: said before, observing the abnormal and context of the normal. 324 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: If you've got a grandmother, you've been in her bedroom, 325 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: you know it looks a particular way. This lady's bedroom 326 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: looked a particular way, kind of reminiscent of my grandmother. 327 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: You can't help but drag your own personal views into 328 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: these things. But then you see everything that's going on, 329 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: everything from the changes in the body to larval development with flies, 330 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: to you know, just everything that's going on in this environment, 331 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: and you can't escape it. I've described it in my 332 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: writings as kind of the essence of death that leeches 333 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: onto you, and I've got a great story about that 334 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: that I can get into. But it's one of these 335 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: things that when you're around it, you you bear witness 336 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: to it with your eyes, but you carry a remnant 337 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: of it with you when you leave the scene. And 338 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: that's something that I you know that I I had 339 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: to work through. My family had to work there. My 340 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: wife used to. 341 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 3: Make the scene stayed on your clothing, your hair, all 342 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 3: of that. 343 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: Mm hmm my mustache. Yeah, everything I worked A years ago. 344 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: I worked, uh, what's called a jacket barge. People are 345 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: generally not familiar with it if you don't live near 346 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: the Gulf of Mexico where there's ore fineries and uh, 347 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: you know offshore rigs and jacket bar just got these 348 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: huge posts on it where they can actually take this 349 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: barge out to imagine one of these huge world uh 350 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: you know, oil wells out you know, a dereck out there, 351 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: and they can set this thing next to it, and 352 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: it's got like an old fashioned carjack. Those legs go 353 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,719 Speaker 1: down to the ocean floor and they can work on 354 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: the deck of this thing a jason to the oil 355 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: rig and do all kinds of Well, the guys that 356 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: were on this rig, there was a tropical storm that 357 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: came in the Gulf of Mexico and they were trying 358 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: to beat at home and this thing is real awkward, 359 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: you know, when it doesn't have the same physical characteristics 360 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: of like a crew boat or something like that. And 361 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: it capsized and all sixteen of those guys died and 362 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: we got them not at one time. They were fetched 363 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: out of the water of a period of time and 364 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: I was, of all things, inside of a I'll never 365 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: forget this, a pigly wiggly refrigerated eighteen wheeler that I 366 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,239 Speaker 1: don't know how the parish got it, but we got it. 367 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: We didn't have enough room to store all these bodies. 368 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: Day in and day out. I was going into this 369 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: environment to do everything that we had to do to 370 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: get them id'd. And it was a long process and 371 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: it was tedious. I spent a lot of hours in there, 372 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: and I remember from that instance in particular, when I 373 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: went home. I was single back then, and I remember, 374 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: we'll see, it was two days after the last body 375 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: I'd worked, and I'm I am a fool for showers. 376 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: I love showers. I'll take two a day if I can. 377 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: And a buddy of mine that worked with me, that 378 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: had not worked in there, he said, did you work 379 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: at d COMP today? And I said no, I said 380 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: not for two days we finished up the guys off 381 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: the He says, you smell bad, and I'm thinking, what 382 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: what's going on? You know? And after a while you 383 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: can't you kind of get I don't know, you hits 384 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: self conscious of it. I'm like lifting my mustache up 385 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: to my nose. I had this big, thick like Tom 386 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: Selleck mustache back in the eighties, and I caught a 387 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: whiff of it in my mustache, and I remember going home, 388 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: and I write about this in my memoir Blood Beneath 389 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: my Feet and not since basic training had I had 390 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: my head shaved and in the Army, I I went 391 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: to my barber, had them shave my head, and I 392 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: shaved off my mustache, plucked all of my nose hairs 393 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: because it got into my mind so much, and I 394 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: threw away all of the clubs. I was using a 395 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: particular set of clothes, I was using a particular set 396 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: of scrubs for that that I would wash. But they 397 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: still it just reminded me of it, and you can't 398 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: get away from that essence. Now. I don't know how 399 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: much of that was real, or how much of it 400 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: was something that had happened in my brain. I've had 401 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: other people tell me that. And you know, it's weird 402 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: that the culture of a medical examiner or corner's office, 403 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: where almost we almost have they ought to study us 404 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: like they study you know, animals in the wild, like 405 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: in the jungles, if you see like the great apes 406 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: that are out there, kind of picking knits out of 407 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: each other's hair. We we would do things, as bizarre 408 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: as that is, we would how how what rational person 409 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: would walk up to another person? And as a favor, 410 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: if your buddy says, do us, do I smell bad? 411 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: And it's not like you have bo It's like they 412 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: know what you've just gone through. Do you have any 413 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: essence of you of what you've come from? Because you've 414 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: been asked to go out to lunch, and let that 415 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: sink in just for a second. You can't avoid people, 416 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: and so as a courtesy, you know, we would, we 417 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: would do that for And I remember distinctly many occasions, 418 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, smelling or sniffing my colleagues. As weird as 419 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: that sounds, you would, you know, you would smell, you'd 420 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: smell their or there. You know, you'd lean in and 421 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: smell the shirt collar. No, I don't smell anything. Now, 422 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: I think you're good to go. And that was just 423 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: kind of common when you think about decomposition. It's a 424 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: norm for those in our world, but it's so it's 425 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: so abnormal for anybody that's not near it, and it's striking. 426 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 2: This goes back to the original thing that you said 427 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: about people asking about the worst thing you've ever seen. 428 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 2: It's nothing I'm ever going to be near. It's not 429 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 2: my life. I'm not going to be. The closest I'll 430 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: be to a dead body is if a loved one, 431 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 2: a very old loved one is in bed and I'm 432 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 2: there around them, and this is somebody that is not 433 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: they're dying. I'm not going to be around this in 434 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 2: my life, which is why that question. But I've got 435 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: to ask you. You mentioned the first body you unzipped 436 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 2: in the morgue, and you mentioned the body was green tongue. 437 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 2: You gave a brief description. Can you compare the decomposition 438 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 2: of a body like that versus the grandma that they 439 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 2: hadn't seen in three weeks? What difference is what changes 440 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 2: take place in that period of time. You don't you're 441 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 2: not three days in when you come in green swelled 442 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 2: up in your tongue sticking out, But you're also not 443 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 2: soiled into a mattress where you're only three inches left 444 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 2: of body. 445 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: So now I've had that happen. 446 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we did a story about a woman who 447 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: actually melted into the furniture she. 448 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: Died, and that does happen, and you know, I guess 449 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, we would use the term melting melting implause, 450 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, being exposed to extreme heat. But just so 451 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: that you understand and all of our friends understand, it's 452 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 1: just it's a matter of the process of decomposition. You're 453 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 1: not going to see this immediately. But again, I cannot 454 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: stress to peeceeople how what a huge factor temperature is 455 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: on these events as you as you move through the 456 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: process of assessing how long they have been down. So 457 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: if you you know, if you take someone that's kind 458 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: of outside the window of the micro sense, where we're 459 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: looking at hours, maybe a couple of days, and we're 460 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: trying to pin it down. We were looking at at 461 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: Roger Mortis and we're looking at postmortal lividity and all 462 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: those things are the you know, are the limbs flaccid? 463 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: Now has has the rigidity broken? Is you know it's 464 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: a lividity. And we've talked about all this in previous episode. 465 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: Is it blanchable versus non blankable? All those things and 466 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: what's the body temp? Well, now you're going to a 467 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: different level because you begin to look at elements out 468 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: at a scene where you're thinking, well, I'm seeing this 469 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: presentation at the scene. Can I can I tie this 470 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: back to a time a marker in toime if I 471 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: if I'm looking at a body. One of the first 472 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: things that begins to occur from when you're heading down 473 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: the road toward you know, we have degrees. We'll talk 474 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: about minimal, moderate, to advance decomposition in the macro sense, 475 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: in the broad sense. So if you're talking about minimal, 476 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: here's an interesting little factoid. One of the things that 477 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: you encounter, one of the first like observable changes, I think, 478 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: is there's a greenish discoloration that appears on the abdomen 479 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: and I don't explain, I can't explain why. I think 480 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: it has something to do with gaseous build up, probably 481 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, within the bowel, but most of the time 482 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: it's in the right lower quadrant, adjacent to like where 483 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: your appendix would be. You'll see kind of a green patch. 484 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: I've seen this repeated over and over again, and that's 485 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: that's in the area where you're starting to get into 486 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,479 Speaker 1: a macro examination of decomposition, and then it begins to spread. 487 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: And I think that one of the reasons you see 488 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: this greenish discoloration, you know, kind of begin to take 489 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: form over the abdomen where you know the bowel is concerned. 490 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: Is that there's a lot of going on. There's a 491 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: lot going on here internally with the body because the 492 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: body has literally begun to eat itself. And this is 493 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: what we refer to as autolsis and as auto means self, right, 494 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: and so the body literally begins to break its or 495 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: digest its on self, you know, through enzymic changes and 496 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: this sort of thing, and any little nasties that are 497 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: in dwelling in there. And of course our gut is 498 00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: loaded with these elements that begin to break down. And 499 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: you think about this kind of expansion and the bloating 500 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: of the body, and the body bloats in a variety 501 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: of different ways. You get this kind of abdominal bloating 502 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: that takes place, and you'll and some people will hear 503 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: of this as decompositional distincsion, and the abdomen will be very, 504 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: very rigid. As a matter of fact, it will feel 505 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: in certain cases it almost feels like the surface of 506 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: overinflated basketball. It's not going to have the same texture, obviously, 507 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: but it has that you know what I'm talking about, 508 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: that level of rigidity. 509 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I've heard people talk about how they get 510 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: bloated like that and it can they pop like a balloom? 511 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 3: Can a person be so bloated? Joe? 512 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just we've heard jokes in movies about it, right, push, 513 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 2: don't push them out to see, but don't poke him 514 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 2: because you don't want him to explode. 515 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and you know people have and I take 516 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: exception to people that say explode because I've never had 517 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: a body, literally an entire body explode, all right. A 518 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: lot of old timer's will say that, particularly cops. They'll say, yeah, 519 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: I saw the body. They're not seeing the body explode. Actually, 520 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: what they're seeing is and this is one of the 521 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: first things that happens in the stage. You get what's 522 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: referred to as skin slippage. And if folks will just 523 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: kind of look at your hands and you know you 524 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: have this epidermal epidermis, which is that thin outer coating 525 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: of skin on our body. Well, what begins to happen 526 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: is that gas is actually beginning to build up within 527 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: that space between the epidermis and the dermis, and you 528 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: developed these things that we refer to as and it's 529 00:32:54,760 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: generally associated with emphysema COPD practice doctors that deal with 530 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: COPD emphasma, you know, they talk about this with emphasma. 531 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: You get these little bumps on the surface of the 532 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: lungs and they referred to as blebs, b l e 533 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: b s blebs. We refer to these as decompositional blabs 534 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: because they look like little balloons that begin to present 535 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: on the skin are this gaseous expansion has taken place. 536 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: And many times these blabs will be really big, I 537 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: mean the size of like a party balloon, and they're 538 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: filled with probably one of the most disgusting substances on 539 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: the face of the planet, this decompositional fluid. It's and 540 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: it's a it's a mix of a variety of things 541 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: cellular decomposition. You've got in some cases, you've got elements 542 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: of various elements of blood RBC's and white blood cells, 543 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: plasma and everything, serum and everything else that's in there, 544 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: and it's all kind of combining. And uh, I can't 545 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 1: tell you how many times I've had one of those 546 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 1: erupt and it it'll it splashes everywhere. You'll get these 547 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: large wet spots beneath bodies. That sort of thing. 548 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 3: And that's what you're getting. That's what that is. 549 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you'll get that. You'll see that present many 550 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: times and sometimes they'll be very small. But the skin 551 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: we call it skin slippage, and it's a marker in time, 552 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: you know, for how long this is this this person 553 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: has been deceased, you know, because they're moving into this 554 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: phase and it's it's uh, it's something that when we 555 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: when we see it, we can actually get an idea 556 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: of how long someone has been down where they've advanced 557 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: past the micro sense and they're headed into the macro sense. 558 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: There's other associated things that kind of come along with this, 559 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,240 Speaker 1: you know, and that's within a window of and again 560 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,280 Speaker 1: it's heavily depended upon environmental temperature, but when you begin 561 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: to think about heat, it's going to speed this process up. 562 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: If you begin to look outside of that like seventy 563 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: two hour window, you'll see these changes that'll that will 564 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,240 Speaker 1: take place. There will also be a greenish just coloration 565 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: that's taking place. And the body also does something else 566 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: that's quite interesting. You'll see issue with what's referred to 567 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: as marbling and marbling, you know, we hear that commonly 568 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: associated with you know, you look at the marbling of 569 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: a cut, a beef or something, and that's generally referring to, 570 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: you know, these kind of lines of fat, and you know, 571 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: they grade these sort of things. But marbling in human 572 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: remains is fascinating because when you see it looks like 573 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: a spider web and it really is striking. It's kind 574 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: of a deep, deep purple color. And what is occurring 575 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: is that the blood that is still contained in those 576 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: vessels is decay and so it is presenting. It's leeching out, 577 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: but it's also presenting and approximating the layout of blood 578 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: vessels in the body. And you'll see it in the 579 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 1: face a lot. You'll see it. It presents because those 580 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: vessels are so close to the surface, like you know, 581 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: in the cheeks, forehead, that sort of thing. And people 582 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: when they see this, and I'm talking about civilians that 583 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: walk in and find someone, it's one of the most 584 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: ghastly things that they can begin to imagine in their mind. 585 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: And it's so horrible. I hate it for families that 586 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: walk in, you know, and find their loved ones in 587 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: these conditions. We have to go in and document that 588 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: and observe it. One of the you know, I remember 589 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: very distinctly. I had a young man that was a 590 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: rookie police officer and he had contacted me from the 591 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: scene of a death of a gentleman that had been 592 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: found in a rocking chair. And he was still dressed. 593 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 1: He was a guy, was like a laborer and he 594 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: worked construction sites. He was still wearing his work boots 595 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: on it and his blue jeans. They've still had red 596 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: clay mud on it. I'll never forget. But he had 597 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: probably been down for I don't know, maybe six days. 598 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: And the young police officer, and it was in summertime. 599 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: The young police officer called me up and said, mister Morgan, 600 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: you have to get out here immediately. Says, I think 601 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: we've got a homicide. It looks like this might be 602 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: some kind of attack with an axe or something. Please, 603 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,399 Speaker 1: you know, I've got c ID in route, I've got 604 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: IDAN route, so priminin the detectives and the forensic technicians. 605 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 1: You need to get out. I said, okay, I'm heading 606 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: out that way. And what it turned out to be, 607 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: and he was right to call us because he's a 608 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: beat cop. He doesn't know any different. But there was 609 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: what appeared to be blood just surrounding the body. The 610 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: guy was in a rocking chair. It had leached down 611 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: onto his shirt. It looked like blood. Head was swollen, 612 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: it looked like there was a dima like even And 613 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: that's not what had happened. The fellow had been decomposing 614 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: in this position and was presenting as if he had 615 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: been you know, he had been beaten to helen back. 616 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: That wasn't the case. It was his face had begun 617 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: to swell and bloat and these sorts of things, and 618 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: he was beginning to purge, which is another another level 619 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: that you'd get to with decomposition, and that means through 620 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: any orifice that you have, the nose, the mouth, you'll 621 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: actually present with this purge fluid. And again this is 622 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: a combination. It's kind of a mixture of all of 623 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: this cellular waste that's occurring in the bodies. The cells 624 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: begin to break down and they'll it'll literally drip out 625 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,359 Speaker 1: of the nose and out of the mouth and these 626 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: sorts of things, and it will stain the adjacent surfaces. 627 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: So you can imagine this young man when he is 628 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 1: there and he's observing this, and the poor victim had 629 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: on a white T shirt. Dave, and you can imagine 630 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: the contrast here, and so he's looking at a guy 631 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: who is very dark, looks like he's you know, he's 632 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: been beaten, bruised, contusions, this sort of thing, and he's 633 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: seeing his contrast against the white T shirt. And this 634 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: has all taken place now, in this particular case, within 635 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: only about six days. So when you have an unattended 636 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: death that occurs like this and the subject is has 637 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: been down and no one has come around to check 638 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: on them, it's you have to as an as a 639 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: forensic scientist, you have to look and understand that decomposition 640 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: is going going on, but is it obscuring an injury? 641 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:08,720 Speaker 1: And that's tough, that's particularly tough to do at the scene. 642 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: And here's the other thing. You know, there's like that 643 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: little person within you that is screaming, get me out 644 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: of here. I don't want to be in this environment. 645 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: I'm smelling this, I'm sensing it. I'm even having flies 646 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: come off of the body and land on me. And 647 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: that does happen. But yet you're having to look at 648 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: these cases because of the level of decomposition, even more 649 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: closely because things now are obscured, So you're having to 650 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: match yourself intellectually, you know, to try to understand this 651 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: is the science, it's a natural process. Decomposition of body 652 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,359 Speaker 1: is breaking down. But I've got so much change that's 653 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: taking place in the body as I'm looking at this, 654 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: is it obscuring something? And am I missing? And this 655 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: is one of the reasons on body backs we you know, 656 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: will we will hear these cases where forensic pathologist even 657 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,720 Speaker 1: will say the body was so far gone we couldn't 658 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: appreciate if there was any trauma in the neck. Well, 659 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,959 Speaker 1: what they're saying about that is that there's so much 660 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,439 Speaker 1: decomposition going around the head and the neck that upon 661 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,720 Speaker 1: initial observation, they couldn't appreciate any kind of focal areas 662 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: of hemorrhage, like where somebody had grabbed somebody by the 663 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: neck or use the ligature, or the person been struck 664 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: in the head. You really, and it's counterintuitive because it's 665 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: like the cases that as you know, your own personal 666 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: humanity is screaming to put as much distance between yourself 667 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: and this offensive remain that is in front of you. 668 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: You have to anchor yourself. You have to screw yourself 669 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: to the floor and stand there because you have to 670 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: pay more attention, Dave. You have to pay more attention 671 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: in this context, at the scene and at the morgue, 672 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,240 Speaker 1: because I got to tell you something. If you can't 673 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: get past the horror, if you can't get past these 674 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: natural biological changes, you're missing something. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 675 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: and this is bodybags.