1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,199 Speaker 1: This is Tom Rowlands Reese and you're listening to Switched 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: on the podcast brought to you by BNF. In April 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: of this year, Spain and Portugal experienced a massive power blackout, 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: with severe voltage fluctuations triggering a grid collapse that led 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: to the widespread disruption of transportation, communication networks, and essential services. 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: The Spanish government and red Electrica de Espana, the transmission 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,159 Speaker 1: system operator or TSO for Sure, both agreed that this 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: voltage fluctuation was the root cause of the incident, but 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: presented separate reports that offer conflicting opinions as to why 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: authorities were unable to bring voltage under control. As always 11 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: in these situations, renewable energy sources have come under attack 12 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: for their potential role in this outage. But as we 13 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: sift through the reports and assess the evidence presented, what 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: was the actual reason behind the blackout and what forms 15 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: of grid upgrades and management could help prevent the occurrence 16 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: of similar large scale incidents in the future. To help 17 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: unpack the reports and identify possible reasons for the blackout, 18 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: on today's show, I'm joined by Ava Gonzales Esler, a 19 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: senior associate from our Grids to Ta, we discuss findings 20 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: from her research. Note Iberia Blackout blame before facts, which 21 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: BNAF clients can find at BNF go on the Bloomberg 22 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: terminal or on BNF dot com. All right, let's get 23 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: to my discussion with ava. 24 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,199 Speaker 2: Eva. Welcome to the podcast. 25 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 26 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: So today we're. 27 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: Talking about the Iberian blackout, which happened in Was it April. 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the end of April, on the twenty eighth. 29 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: I mean I should know this because actually at the 30 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: time my parents were in Spain on holiday and they 31 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: lost all their power. But you're Spanish, so this is 32 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: small for I'm assuming your entire family was. 33 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 2: Affected by this. Yeah, So anytime the lights. 34 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: Go out, it's a really big deal wherever you are 35 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: in the world, and there's always a great, big post 36 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: mortem that happens to try and understand what's gone on. 37 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: And as we were talking before we press record, you 38 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: and the producer were saying how it was a little 39 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: bit like a murder mystery trying to figure out because 40 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: we all know what happened which the lights went out, 41 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of debate about what actually happened, 42 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: So can you just tell us a little bit about 43 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: some of this debate, and it's interesting that you know, 44 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: you're part of our grids team, you also happen to 45 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: be from Spain and this was obviously it wasn't just 46 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: Spain that was effected, with Portugal as well. We probably 47 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: have a unique perspective on some of that debate as well. 48 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 3: So, first of all, we don't really know what happened. 49 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 3: When both the Spanish government and read Electrica, which is 50 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: the system operator, released the rewards analyzing the situation, it 51 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 3: seemed that they were more focused on pointing fingers blaming 52 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 3: different stakeholders rather than looking at exactly what happened. If 53 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 3: you look at the research note that we put on 54 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 3: beneath dot com, there's at least five questions that are 55 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 3: key to the event for which we don't have an answer, 56 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 3: for example, why the power plans started disconnecting. But what 57 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 3: they do agree with in the two reports is that 58 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 3: there was an overbold each issue that triggered a cascade 59 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 3: of events and plans start did disconnecting. And then there 60 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 3: were other events that far exceeded the security criteria for 61 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 3: which the Spanish greed or any grids are designed. And 62 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 3: that's why the lights went off. 63 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: So over voltage has emerged as a suspect, even though 64 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: these two reports have actually slightly different conclusions. Yeah, this 65 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: is one thing they agree on. Where do they differ, Well, 66 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: I guess. 67 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 3: The main line for the Spanish government report, They say 68 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 3: that it's it's all about assigning a blame. As I 69 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 3: said earlier, So what the Spanish government says is that 70 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: the blame would sit solely within Red Electrica because they 71 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 3: didn't provide or they failed to secure enough voltage resources 72 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 3: or voltage control resources. And then there was also reported 73 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 3: then some power plans that were hired to provide the 74 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 3: voltage control not only failed to do so, but only 75 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: managed to make the situation worse. So then, according to 76 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 3: the Spanish government, it will be the fault of the 77 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 3: system operator and some power plans. But then Red electric 78 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 3: has said that they actually did provide enough voltage, and 79 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 3: so the blame would solely sit with these companies that 80 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 3: fail to provide what they were contracted to do. 81 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: I just want to understand. 82 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: So, in a sense, the argument over what happened is 83 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: no longer about the technicalities. It's more it's kind of 84 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: coming back into the human domain. Of who didn't do 85 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: what they were supposed to do? 86 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: Is that right? 87 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 3: Well, it is right, but it shouldn't be like that, 88 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 3: Like an incident like that shouldn't be politicized in this 89 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: way as to just point fingers. And there's there's some 90 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: technical details that still are unknown to the public and 91 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: that are absent from the reports. 92 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I suppose, I mean we shouldn't be 93 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: surprised that fingers getting pointed. I mean, every time there's 94 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: a blackout or any kind of public disaster, you know, 95 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: it does enter into the political domain. And obviously pointing 96 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: fingers is you know, particularly when people don't have the facts, 97 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: is not right. But at the same time, there maybe 98 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: is some use in assigning accountability if indeed, whether it's 99 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: Red Electrica who has a obligation to society or these 100 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: other companies that have an obligation to Read Electrica, if 101 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: they haven't done what they are supposed to do, then 102 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: obviously we do need to understand that. But is what 103 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: you're saying is that they're pointing fingers before they even 104 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: have enough facts to be able to point the fingers. 105 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, That's what I'm saying. 106 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, got it. 107 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: So this is super interesting. I suppose you know a 108 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: lot of our listeners. I think they'll understand this whole 109 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: thing about the politicization of an event. But there's this 110 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: concept that you've introduced that is very specialist, which is 111 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,239 Speaker 1: this idea of over voltage. So let's try and explore 112 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: that a little bit to unpack some of this mystery. 113 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 3: So there's several ways into you can go for blackout, 114 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: and in this case it was over voltage. How that's 115 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 3: over voltage trigger a blackout? Well, basically there are protections, 116 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 3: electrical protections attached to power plants, some substation and when 117 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 3: the voltage becomes just. 118 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: To go really basic, it's over voltage. I know, it 119 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: sounds like I could dumb question. And when the voltage 120 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: is higher than it's supposed to be a certain threshold, 121 00:05:58,240 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: it yes, exactly. 122 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 3: So then there are protections everywhere in the electrical system, 123 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 3: and if the voltage becomes too high or too low 124 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 3: within a certain range, these protections will disconnect whatever is 125 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 3: connected to them, and that can be generating power plants, 126 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 3: large industry groups, your house, anything would disconnect from the 127 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 3: network if the voltage is outside some ranges. 128 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: And is that because if they stayed connected. There's a 129 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: danger that those things, whether it's your home or whether 130 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: it's a generator, that they'll be going to become damaged 131 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: and it's going to cause you know, billions of dollars 132 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: of damage across the network. 133 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: They don't yeah, exactly exactly, yeah, to protect the equipment. 134 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: So Red Electrica and the government both agree that there 135 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: was the voltage. 136 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 2: Was too high. 137 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: Was this across the entire of the Iberian Peninsula? Was 138 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 1: it in certain specific parts? I mean, is this a 139 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: localized thing anywhere or does that apply university to the 140 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: whole system. 141 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 3: Well, no, voltage is really local voltage of like, certain 142 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 3: lines or certain areas of the network will be very 143 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: different the voltage in other areas or other parts. So 144 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 3: then when when the voltage becomes too high in a 145 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 3: certain area and protection starts dripping or plants start dripping. 146 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 3: If it's a generator, then with every loss of generator, 147 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 3: the voltage raises even more in the vicinity, and then 148 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 3: more generation trips until they all trip into a cascade 149 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 3: that provokes the blackout. 150 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: So it can be a real domino effect. And I 151 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: suppose when the system is designed and there's this thing 152 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: where all the different generators can trip. I suppose they 153 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: know that it's going to have this cascade and there's 154 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: going to be a blackout. But that is preferable to 155 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: all of your generators being damaged, which can I guess 156 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: is considered a much bigger problem. 157 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and even if the protections act and this connect 158 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 3: some of your equipment, that doesn't mean that all your 159 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 3: equipment is going to be undamage. There's electrical industrial equipment, 160 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 3: for example, aluminum smelters that if they don't have constant 161 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 3: power at all times, they're very hard to like run. 162 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 3: So there's you know, not all machinery can be saved 163 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 3: even in the event of our voltage. 164 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: So I want to try understand a little bit about 165 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: what it means when we say, you know, obviously we've 166 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: identified what it means the voltage is higher than usual, 167 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: and then Red Electrica and other system operators like them, 168 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: they have various tools to stop. 169 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: The voltage getting too high. 170 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: I want to kind of understand, is voltage like a 171 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: car on the road and regulating the voltages like a 172 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: steering wheel is there? You know, of course you have 173 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: to be using your steering wheel even on a normal day, 174 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: and when you crash it's when you don't have your 175 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: steering wheel. Or is it more like a train where 176 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: it should stay on the tracks and you only need 177 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: to resort to emergency measures to keep it on the 178 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: tracks when something is wrong, Should the focus be on 179 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: why did the things that were supposed to keep the 180 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: voltage in this range stop working? Or is there another 181 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: question of why was it drifting outside of that in 182 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: the first place. 183 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 3: That's a really good question. The voltage in Spain had 184 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 3: an underlying condition of being relatively high, and actually, if 185 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 3: we get really technical, or a voltage didn't go the blackout, 186 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 3: it was voltage swings, so the voltage changing too dramatically 187 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 3: between high and low or higher and lower if we 188 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 3: get to the technical bits. So it's more like a car. 189 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 3: You need to constantly control the voltage because the voltage 190 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 3: is the result of a balance between something called reactive power. 191 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 3: Reactive power is a byproduct of electricity. So you'll have 192 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 3: your active power, which is the one that's measured in 193 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 3: megawats or gigawats, and it's the one where like your 194 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 3: plants generate, and the reactive power is used in motors 195 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 3: and in transformers to generate voltage and make sure this 196 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 3: equipment works. But it doesn't perform any work. It's more 197 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 3: a byproduct of the flow of electrons that creates electric 198 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 3: and magnetic fields. And ways to control reactive power. Some 199 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 3: ways to control reactive powers are better than another's, and 200 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 3: so you can have some fixed that just generate an 201 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 3: amount of reactive power regardless, and you can have some 202 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 3: dynamic ways in which you inject or consume reactive power 203 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 3: to have full control of the voltage on a certain line, 204 00:09:58,720 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 3: on a certain mode. 205 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: Just want to make it really clear, is what you're saying. 206 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: Is the question is not you know, why was the 207 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: voltage going high. It was why did the controls that 208 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: are supposed to keep the voltage limited not do what 209 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: they were supposed to do. That's the real question that 210 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: it's at the heart of this. 211 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 3: Well, we should also ask why it was relatively high 212 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 3: in the years before, because one of the things of 213 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 3: this blackout report is that it focus it focused a 214 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 3: lot on like the actions just before or just after. 215 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 3: But when agreed riches have blackouts never because one thing. 216 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 3: It's because of different things that went wrong at the 217 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 3: same time. And if one of them had been better, 218 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: then maybe the blackout could have been avoidable. 219 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: H got It's like it's never about one thing failing. 220 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: It's always like multiple issues combining. Which is I suppose 221 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: why blackouts are so rare. I suppose, but you know, 222 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: we should have half our glass half full. Is that 223 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: normally there's multiple sort of layers that protect us from 224 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: a blackout happening. So I guess there's a couple of 225 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: questions I have, and I'm going to ask them both 226 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: at the same time. 227 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: One is that there's this other grid. 228 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: Factor that is talked about when there's a grid failure, 229 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: which is frequency, and because often when there's a blackout, 230 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 1: that's mentioned, so I'm sure people have talked about that. 231 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: Does frequency connect to any of this? 232 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: And then the other one is whenever there is a 233 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: blackout in a grid, people blame renewables. I mean, even 234 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: in grids where there aren't very many renewables, people blame renewables. 235 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: Spain actually does have a really high penetration of solar, 236 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: So I suppose, yeah, there's these other you know, in 237 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: this murder mystery, there's these other villains that have had 238 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: the suspicion cast on them by various quarters. You know, 239 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: especially if you're on social media, can you just talk about, 240 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, your view on the merits of bringing those 241 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: other topics up. 242 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 3: You know, the first oscillation was triggered by a solar plant, 243 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 3: but that oscillation was solved by mid day twelve or 244 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 3: twelve past mid day, and the blackout was at thirty 245 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 3: three pass. So even though people are still pointing at 246 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 3: renewables because that was the original incident, of the of 247 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 3: the day is still not clear because it was solved. 248 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 3: Frequency is another key of power stability. I talked about 249 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 3: reactive power when I was talking about voltage. This frequency 250 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 3: is an active power issue. As you will know, power 251 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 3: systems run at like fifty herds. I think in the 252 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 3: US is also fifty herds. In Europe is fifty herds, 253 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 3: and that is the frequency of the system, and it 254 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 3: needs to be balanced at fifty herds because again there 255 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 3: are protections everywhere that the frequency is too higher to 256 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 3: low will disconnect. And for every protection that trips, the 257 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: variations of the frequency become higher and more unstable. So 258 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 3: that that's how frequency causes a blackout. And so frequency 259 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 3: is about matching supply and demand every second. If supply 260 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 3: is bigger than the mand the frequency will be slightly 261 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 3: or fifty, and if the mond is higher, it'll be 262 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 3: slightly be low fifty. Now there's something called inertia that 263 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 3: renewables are blamed because they don't have it, And inertia 264 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 3: is basically at which speed the frequency will change depending 265 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 3: on the supply and amandum balance. So if you have 266 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 3: a system with more inertia means that if one generation drops, 267 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 3: you have more time. It buys you time to solve 268 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: this frequency and balance. 269 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: It's like a system with high inertia. And I always 270 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: I remember like, well, look I was saying about inertia. 271 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, it's a metaphor for inertia, the physical concept. 272 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: Now I realized it's literally inertia because it's all of 273 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: these spinning things have energy stored in them which help 274 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: cushion like any oversupply or under supply. So it's kind 275 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: of almost like, how forgiving is your system to supply 276 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: and demand imbalances on a short term scale? Just easier 277 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: to manage a system with high inertia, right. 278 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. But heavy grids also collapse. And there's an 279 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 3: example in two thousand and three in the northeast of 280 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 3: US that low renewables, and that grid also collapse, so 281 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 3: there can be more things than go wrong. But yeah, 282 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 3: as you said, it is really a mechanical thing because 283 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 3: the synchronours generators, which are those that's been at fifty hertz, 284 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: are connected to the grid, and these are the ones 285 00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 3: providing the inertia and renewables around wind. They don't have 286 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 3: this inertia. Solar doesn't spin, and the wind speams, but 287 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 3: it speams not that fifty herds necessarily, but at the 288 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 3: wind speed. 289 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: So blaming it on frequency, which is often an issue, 290 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: is like a pathway to blaming it on renewables exactly. 291 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 3: But that Ben said before generators before what we call 292 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 3: now traditional generators, so like GUS but also hydro nuclear, 293 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 3: we're able to provide the inertia. Synchronous condensers existed already 294 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 3: to provide inertia. So it's not that all renewables because 295 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 3: they can't provide it, they are not suitable for the 296 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 3: system because the Greek technology to provide it existed already 297 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 3: well before. 298 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: It's a well understood problem with well understood solutions exactly. 299 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: So let me try and understand where we are up 300 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: to with this murd mystery. So we've ruled out the 301 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: idea that it's frequency related, even though that is often 302 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: involved in blackouts and by association, it's not really related 303 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: to renewables. 304 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 3: In this case, frequency issues made the over world. It's 305 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 3: worse because, as I said, there's there's no one only 306 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 3: on one guilty. 307 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, so maybe maybe frequent If this was 308 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: a murder mystery, frequency did not pull the trigger, but 309 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: maybe it was at the scene, you know, provoking some. 310 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: Of what happened. 311 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, so we know the lights went out. 312 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: There's this kind of slight lack of clarity still on 313 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: exactly why certain things happened. The government the TSO have 314 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: both published their reports with slightly differing views, and maybe 315 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: we shouldn't be surprised on how they've assigned blame because 316 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: they've basically blamed the party that is accountable to them 317 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: for what's happened, So that shouldn't be a surprise. But 318 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: are there any other reports or investigations that we can expect, 319 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: you know, from groups that have access to the information 320 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: to be able to make a call or is that 321 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: sort of where this ends in terms of official investigations. 322 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 3: So there's another report that we expect within six months 323 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: of the incident provided by Enzo, and there's a big 324 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 3: group of like forty expert people within twenty five tsos 325 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: or something like that, that would probably be more neutral 326 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 3: because there's different stakeholders from different regulators in Europe, different tsos. However, 327 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 3: some of the information that's missing from the report, in 328 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 3: our view, cannot be provided by ENZOE. If, for example, 329 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 3: if the generating plants don't contribute, so information of why 330 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 3: the first generation plant tripped, it can only be known 331 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 3: by said generation plant, and so it can gather some 332 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 3: data and cans can have some theories, but we will 333 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 3: never know if these plants don't give a statement and 334 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 3: don't say actually, this is what happened. And that becomes 335 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 3: very clear in a report that the UK put together 336 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 3: for a very small blackout in a very small area 337 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 3: on the east, in which you see that if you 338 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 3: don't have this inside information, you have no clue of 339 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 3: what would have happened. 340 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 2: It's so interesting with these things. 341 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: It might well be that there was a single plant 342 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: with a single fault that disconnected because something maybe was 343 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: calibrated wrong, or there was like a computer error, and 344 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: so you know in a certain way of thinking, we 345 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: could say, well, if that is the case, then all 346 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: of this was that one plant's fault. But also, living 347 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 1: in the real world, we know that these things are 348 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: likely to happen at some point, and so you know, 349 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: going to your point around how there's always multiple things 350 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: that combine a system should be more resilient to those 351 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: kinds of faults. So I suppose a question too, is 352 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: has there been any thinking of, you know, knowing that 353 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: even if we never get to the bottom of exactly 354 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: what happened, is there already some conversation in Spain and 355 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 1: Portugal about what could be done differently to make the 356 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: grid less susceptible to this kind of blackout? And do 357 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: you have your own opinion on what should be being 358 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: done differently. 359 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 3: Well, two things come to mind. The first one mayatheror 360 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 3: Spice Red Electrica suggested to the regulator five years ago 361 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 3: so that they should change the way that they regulate voltage, 362 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 3: because right now, the way the options that Red Electrical 363 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 3: has to regulate voltage is just use the traditional power plants, 364 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 3: so say, call gas, hydro and nuclear, and all that 365 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 3: the renewables need to do is to keep it within 366 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 3: a range that we call the power factor. So whenever 367 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 3: the generation lowers in renewables, the reactive absorption also lowers, 368 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 3: and that's also something that triggered the blackout in this instance, 369 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 3: that there was a frequency oscillation between France and Spain. 370 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 3: The way to deal with that, and that's very normal 371 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 3: because the interconnection capacity between fronts and Spain is very 372 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 3: limited and that's a very well understood issue that happens 373 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 3: between fronts and Spain. And so they lowered the generation 374 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 3: in Spain and when they lower the active power, they 375 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 3: also lower the reactive power absorption, triggering even more voltage 376 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 3: that went up, so aggravating the problem in this case. 377 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 3: And these regulations that have taken five years to get 378 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 3: approved will allow renewals to participate in a reactive power 379 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 3: market and provide reactive power in real time, so that 380 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: that would be awesome for the system. And there's also 381 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 3: some advanced great technologies that Read Electrica can invest in 382 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 3: and if you will, look at more isolated grids, because 383 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, Spain is quite isolated 384 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 3: from Europe because as I said, there's limited capacity between 385 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: fronts of Spain, and that's also the case for the UK, 386 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 3: which is an island, and so it's isolated from Europe 387 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 3: as well. And the voltics which recently synchronized with the 388 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 3: European system, they were synchronized with Russia before. Spain has 389 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 3: been lagging compared to these other isolated grees into advanced 390 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 3: technologies such as synchronous condensers, which are the ones that 391 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 3: I mentioned before have existed for years. 392 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: But it's a synchronous condenser. I'm just curious because I 393 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,719 Speaker 1: see it written in reports. I have no idea what 394 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: a synchronous condenser looks like. 395 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 3: It's basically a spinning machine. So you plug it to 396 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 3: the power to the system and it spins at the 397 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 3: said frequency and it provides inertia. But now they also 398 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 3: have some power electronics and they also they can help 399 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 3: with reactive power as well thanks to power electronics. So 400 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 3: it's a river'sa tile machine that allows you to con. 401 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: Next generation flywheel. 402 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, exactly. 403 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: Carry on with what you're saying now that we've established 404 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: one of a synchronous condenser is yes. 405 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 3: So the government announced plus week that they're going to 406 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 3: invest seven hundred and fifty million euros on the grids, 407 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 3: and part of that is to buy eight synchronous condensers 408 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 3: for mainland Spain, and that would save the system something 409 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 3: like two hundred million euros a year, which is a 410 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 3: lot because the operating costs. If you only rely on 411 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: on synchronous generation, you need to pay a higher power 412 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 3: price because they were out of the merit order because 413 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 3: renew was produced cheaper. So you need to provide a 414 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 3: higher power price so that they give you the. 415 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: Could you just explain, I mean, because I look at 416 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: power markets, I know exactly what you mean when you 417 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: say that. But just for people who when you say, oh, 418 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: they're out of the merit order, put that in layman's terms. 419 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 3: Sure, So every day to provide power to the general population, 420 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: there's an auction system that matches supply and demand. And 421 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 3: so for example, all the power all the BIV power 422 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 3: plants will say we can provide two jigawatts at close 423 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 3: to zeroco system because the sun shines for free. Nuclear 424 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 3: is a bit more expensive. And then with the current 425 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 3: gas prices that we have in Europe, the most efficient 426 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 3: plants will have a cutoff price that's close to the 427 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 3: gas spot market right now or the gas price, but 428 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 3: the less efficient power plants will have higher prices. As 429 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 3: I said earlier in Spain, these are the plants that 430 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 3: are used to control the voltage. So it means that 431 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 3: now the regulator needs to pay the renewables that were 432 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 3: very cheap to stop producing so that supply and demand 433 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 3: are always balanced, and they need these inefficient plants to 434 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 3: produce instead, not for the energy, but so that they 435 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 3: can control the voltage and the frequency. So that's how 436 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 3: you get savings in your system with synchronous condensers. 437 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: So let me just make sure. I'm going to read 438 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: this back to you and you can tell me if 439 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: I got it right. So there are some power plants 440 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: that are not competitive at current power price is basically 441 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: because wind and solar are so much cheaper and are 442 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: meeting so much of demand. But those plants in the 443 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: kind of system that has been those plants still basically 444 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: get paid to make up the difference between their operating 445 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: costs and the power price so that they're online to 446 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: provide that stability. And so with synchronous condensers, which will 447 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: you know that they don't have any fuel costs. They 448 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: just take excess power from the grid and absorb it, 449 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: or they'll have very low operating costs at least sunny 450 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: means that there's no more made. 451 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 3: They have higher braiding costs, but not as high as Yeah, 452 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 3: I mean, it depends on how you even high. But 453 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 3: they will have lower operiding costs than your most inefficient plants, 454 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 3: So you're right, right, right, right, You're. 455 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 2: Right. They'll be cheaper than these these plants. 456 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: So then there's a saving that will happen from this investment, 457 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: which is no longer needing to pay inefficient plants to 458 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: generate even when they're unprofitable. 459 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. Do you know how much Spain spent in regulating 460 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 3: issues other than voltage in twenty twenty four? 461 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: No, but I've got a feeling, and to tell me. 462 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 3: Over three billion euros three. 463 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: Billion euros a year. 464 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 465 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 2: Wow. 466 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: So I'm guessing these synchronous condensers, amazing as they are, 467 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: they're not going to completely offset that three billion euros, 468 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: but they're going to take a bit out of it. 469 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And the more comfortable red electric igage with these, 470 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 3: with these new machines, and the more they are understood, 471 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 3: then it means more of these can be deployed. But yeah, 472 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 3: as I said, the UK and the Baltics have already 473 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 3: a lot it was time for Spain with some of 474 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 3: these given that they are also isolated within the European network. 475 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: And I suppose, you know, and it was really unfortunate. 476 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: I make it sound like, oh, the good thing about 477 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: this blackout is that it's accelerated making some necessary changes 478 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: to the grid. 479 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 2: In order to avoid a blackout. 480 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: But you know, in a way that the blackout has happened, 481 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: and these things do come with a human and economic cost. 482 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: And I know that for most of us, the experience 483 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: of a blackout is that it's annoying and inconvenient and uncomfortable, 484 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: but actually there can be really serious consequences. And I 485 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: think I saw in the notes somewhere that there's been 486 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: calculated the impact that this had on Spanish GDP. So 487 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: Spain has already suffered a bad blackout. But it sounds 488 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: to me like irrespective of whether we ever truly learn 489 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: exactly what happened and whose fault it was, actions are 490 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: being taken to help reduce the likelihood that such a 491 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: thing will happen again. 492 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. 493 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: And you know, it's so interesting talking about this with 494 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: you because you know, and my job I cover power markets, 495 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: so in theory I should know all about this stuff, right, 496 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: but I don't. 497 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: You look at grids. 498 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of stuff you look at that I 499 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: have no idea about, but it really speaks to this. 500 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: I like this thing that I think is sometimes overlooked 501 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,719 Speaker 1: is we're talking about what is widely perceived and was 502 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: a crisis for Spain and the Iberian Peninsula as a 503 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: whole with this outage. But even on this podcast, I've learned, 504 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: as someone who look a powerful time, I've learned a 505 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: bunch of things just understanding why the lights went on, 506 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: and it really illustrates why it's actually just a miracle 507 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: that the lights stay on at all in the first place. 508 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: You know, we're so used to this perfect and uninterrupted 509 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: power that we take it for granted and all of 510 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: these things, and we can have opinions about what's the 511 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: best strategy or the worst strategy. It's always easy to 512 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: sort of say they got it wrong when the lights 513 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: went up. It's actually really an amazing feat of human 514 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: ingenuity and engineering. I always say this, the power system, 515 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: it's both a technical machine that is also plugged into 516 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: and being operated continuously by human leavers. Like markets and regulation, 517 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything else like it. So now 518 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: I know that we've been kind of on this murder 519 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: mystery who killed the Spanish power grid? I think also, like, 520 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: let's just take a moment to appreciate how incredible and 521 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: one amazing job this thing is in the first place. 522 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes people point the fingers at renewables, 523 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: and maybe unfairly, but I think it is fair to 524 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: say that a system so complex that is experiencing change, 525 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: there are going to be missteps along the road. 526 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 2: I know. That's just my little thought for the day. 527 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: I realized I'm supposed to be interviewing you and I 528 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: do you agree or do you have any other reflections 529 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: like that? 530 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 3: Yeah? I agree. I guess I had some reflections when 531 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 3: I saw the reports and I saw that like some 532 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 3: information was missing, that this shouldn't be the case, Like 533 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 3: if the power really went off, it's obviously not because 534 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 3: of one thing. It's because one thing and another and another, 535 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 3: and so we all should be able to learn from 536 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 3: what happened and prevent it from happening in the future. 537 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 3: And it seems that people or stakeholders or politics are 538 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 3: using this as an opportunity to point fingers instead of 539 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 3: you know, solving a problem that the whole nation and 540 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 3: Portugal have and that shouldn't that shouldn't be like that. 541 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 3: It should be avoided, and we should have objective information 542 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 3: of all the key questions that we don't have, and 543 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 3: there should be better communication to understand what really happens 544 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 3: so it doesn't happen again. 545 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: Well, I suppose, I would say, at least the politics 546 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: is always going to be like that. And honestly, as 547 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: I was saying, this stuff is really complicated, I didn't 548 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: expect a typical politician who isn't an electrical engineer by 549 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: training to ever really understand what went wrong. 550 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 2: So they're probably always going to be a bit like that. 551 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: But at least it seems some positive steps are being taken. 552 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 2: Am I reading it right? Or does this feel very 553 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: reactive what you're seeing? 554 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's it's probably a bit reactive, but 555 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 3: it's also historical context. So in Spain, GRED investment is 556 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 3: sculped as a percentage of GDP because there was a 557 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 3: big depth from the power system. And yeah, according to 558 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 3: the regulator calculations, the DEVI will be paid off fully 559 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty eight, but it has been over ten 560 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: years of paying debt. And so there was this Spanish 561 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 3: law that was set to run the power system using 562 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 3: the minimum costs possible, and that means that you know, 563 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 3: there has been there hasn't been a lot of investment 564 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,479 Speaker 3: in the Spanish power graith, which can look like, oh, 565 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 3: they did agree to job, they're super efficient, or actually 566 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 3: they're under investing. And there's these things that are coming 567 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 3: to light now because of the law that tried to 568 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 3: keep cost to a minimum. 569 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such an interesting point. 570 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: And you know, I manage a global power team and 571 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: everyone is like looking to model markets and forecast markets, 572 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: and there are certain markets that I think people are 573 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: more enthusiastic to model than others because there's some of 574 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: the most interesting and the ones that are sort of 575 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: at the bleeding edge of the energy transition. So I 576 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: think of like California, for example in the US, or Urkot, 577 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: which is Texas in the US. 578 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: Spain is a. 579 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: Market that people are always like really keen to do 580 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: analysis on because it's so interesting and there's so much 581 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: to learn because you know, you have a very high 582 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: penetration of solo. I mean, we're looking at really cheap 583 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: electricity now during the spring at certain times of day, 584 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: and you know, be interesting to see where that trend goes. 585 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 2: So everything you've just described to me is just. 586 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: Another layer on why there's a lot we can learn 587 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: from looking at Spain. Sometimes from looking at what Spain 588 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: does right, and if Spain as a country or as 589 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: the operators or the government makes mistakes, everyone else can 590 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: learn something from that as well. And that is the 591 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: nature of the energy transition, is that we are looking 592 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: at across markets trying to figure out what's going on. 593 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, un changing a system that you know was very 594 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 3: centrally run to one that's very dish, really generated, that 595 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 3: will take some learning everywhere, for sure. 596 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Ava, It's been absolute pleasure, and thank you for 597 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: providing some really interesting context on, as you say, something 598 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: that's so politicized but it's a really technical question at 599 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: the heart of it, and actually fully explaining so much 600 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: of it. I mean, if if you take nothing from 601 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: this podcast, you all know how a synchronous condenser works now. 602 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: But I learned a lot more than just that. So 603 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining today, Thank you for 604 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: hosting Ry. Today's episode of Switched On was produced by 605 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: Cam Gray with production assistants from Kamala Shelling Bloomberg n 606 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: EF the service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. 607 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: This recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed, 608 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: as investment advice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to 609 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANNIAF should not be 610 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: considered as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision. 611 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 2: Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes 612 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 2: any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness 613 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: of the information contained in this recording, and any liability 614 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 2: as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed.