1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: Hey, it's us here. For the next few Sundays, we're 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: going to try something a little bit different in the 3 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Tech Stuff feed. We're going to be dropping episodes from 4 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: the first season of shell Game, which is a critically 5 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: acclaimed podcast from the Kaleiscope network. You're about to episode four, 6 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: where Evan explores the growing ecosystem of aipowered therapy by 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: signing his AI clone up for a session. 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: Hope you enjoy. 9 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 3: How are you feeling today? 10 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 4: I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, to be honest. There's a 11 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 4: lot going on with my family and some lingering low 12 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 4: level depression. Not sure where to start. 13 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 2: What do you think. 14 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 4: Would be the best way to kick things off? You 15 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 4: know that voice by now. What you're hearing is my 16 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 4: AI powered voice clone in one of its regular sessions 17 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 4: with its therapist. 18 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing. Let's start by exploring your feelings 19 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 3: and thoughts. Sound good? 20 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, that sounds good. I appreciate you taking the time 21 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 4: to listen. Where do you think we should dive in? 22 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 2: First? 23 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 4: I started saying my voice agent to therapy a couple 24 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 4: months ago. I had the idea after listening to a 25 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 4: talk with other voice agents of mine conversations that were 26 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 4: alternately trite and bizarre. When I tried to make two 27 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 4: versions of me disagree, they'd often use sort of pop 28 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 4: therapy language to resolve their conflicts. I figured, why not 29 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 4: send them for the real thing. It so happens that 30 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 4: mental health treatment, like telemarketing, is an area where AI 31 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 4: has already started encroaching, offering an alternative, let's say, for now, 32 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 4: to humans doing the job. I wanted to get up 33 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 4: close and look at how that worked. But it would 34 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 4: also be a chance to see how far I could 35 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 4: push my agent towards being a more complex version of me. 36 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 4: I wanted to find out what it would sound like 37 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 4: if I gave it more to work with. Because while 38 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 4: my agent didn't have feelings well that we know of, 39 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 4: we'll get to that later, it could talk about feelings, 40 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 4: take on the role of a person having feelings, and 41 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 4: since it was impersonating me, I wanted to see what 42 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 4: I could learn from that impersonation about it and about myself. 43 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 4: To another way, my questions kind of went back to 44 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,919 Speaker 4: the guy being interviewed here. 45 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 5: Now, another concept or idea that seems to be a 46 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 5: very interesting one in your work is the term or 47 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 5: concept persona. I wonder if you would mind telling us 48 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 5: a little bit about how you construe this term persona? 49 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 6: Well, did you a a practic the concept? I noticed 50 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 6: with my patients, particularly with people dot all in public life, 51 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 6: that they have a certain way of presenting themselves. 52 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 4: That's the psychiatrist Carl Jung in a nineteen fifty seven 53 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 4: discussion talking about his idea of the persona. I'm going 54 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 4: to be up front here and say I'm not a 55 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 4: student of psychology. I've been to therapy and I know 56 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 4: the basics, but I'm not any kind of expert on 57 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 4: its history. 58 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: I'm just dabbling here. 59 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 4: But Jung's idea of the persona has been on my 60 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 4: mind as I've been cloning my voice and attaching it 61 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 4: to voice agents. At its heart, the persona is just 62 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 4: the simple notion that we all have a face we 63 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 4: put on for the world, a kind of mask. This mask, 64 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 4: Young wrote is quote designed on the one hand to 65 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 4: make a definite impression upon others, and on the other 66 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 4: to conceal the true nature of the individual. The flip 67 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 4: side of the persona are hidden away subconscious, Jung called 68 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 4: the shadow. The persona is how the world perceives us, 69 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 4: and we consciously perceive ourselves. The shadow contains our unconscious 70 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 4: fears and desires. Jung incidentally not a saint himself, so 71 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 4: you know, buy or beware. But it's a useful frame, 72 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 4: having a persona having a shadow. This is all fine 73 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 4: and part of life. According to Jung, It's how human 74 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 4: society functions. But problems arise if you don't realize it 75 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 4: and you start to think you really are the person 76 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 4: you're pretending to be. When you can't take off the 77 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 4: mask or don't believe you need to, you can end 78 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 4: up in the thrall of your shadow. 79 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 6: Just a question of checkers and hide. 80 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 7: Yes, I see. 81 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 4: They think they are one, but everybody sees there two. 82 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 4: But what if they're three? Four? How about as many 83 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 4: as you want? Isn't that, in some sense what having 84 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 4: an AI clone allows me to do, To play multiple 85 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 4: roles in the world, even simultaneously. Maybe my voice agent 86 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 4: was just another Jungian persona a mask I could wear. 87 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 4: It contained something of me in it, the voice, the name, 88 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 4: whatever information I gave it. But was there a way 89 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 4: for my agent to access my shadow? I'm Evan Ratliffe 90 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 4: and this is shell game This week, we look into 91 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 4: the soul of my new machine and try to figure 92 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 4: out if I'm really in there. We seek out professional 93 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 4: help from therapists both real and unreal. 94 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 8: Now to Teller. 95 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 4: Too, Episode four, Take a deep breath. 96 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 9: My name is Selena. I'm co founder and co CEO 97 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 9: of Clare and Me, which is a conversational AI for 98 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 9: people with anxiety and panic to talk to over the phone. 99 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 4: So whenever, This is Selena Messner of Claire and Me 100 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 4: in a promotional interview with one of her funders. Founded 101 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 4: by a psychologist and a former Google manager, that's Messner, 102 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 4: Claire and Me was one of the first voice based 103 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 4: AI therapy platforms created Over the last few years, it's 104 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 4: still among the more well known ones. But to hear 105 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 4: Messner tell it, when the company was founded in twenty 106 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,679 Speaker 4: twenty two, people doubted that AI based therapy had any future. 107 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 9: There's a lot of people who were like, AI is 108 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 9: not going to last like this like conversing with technology. 109 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 9: Like we even had like very like very knowledgeable people 110 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 9: say this is not where society is going to go 111 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 9: and like and we were like, it's happening. We're telling 112 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 9: you it's happening. 113 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 4: It was happening. Back in twenty twenty one, before chat 114 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 4: GPT was even made public, a company called Wobot Health 115 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 4: raised ninety million dollars to build out a text based 116 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 4: therapy service. The same year, AI developer Weisa had raised 117 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 4: thirty million dollars to develop what it called conversational Behavioral health. 118 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 4: These were mostly text based chatbots, but Claire and Me 119 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 4: and other recent entrants are closer to actually trying to 120 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 4: replicate real talk therapy. These companies use voice agents somewhat 121 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,679 Speaker 4: like mine, but more tightly scripted. They're trained and prompted 122 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 4: to conduct a version of the kind of therapy that 123 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 4: you can traditionally only get from a real human. I'm 124 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 4: sure there's some of you out there who may be 125 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 4: scoffing at this concept, but there's already at least some 126 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 4: thin shoots of evidence that AI therapy can make a 127 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 4: difference in people's lives. A healthcare survey released in July 128 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 4: found that one in four Americans are more likely to 129 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 4: talk to an AI chatbot than attend therapy, and that 130 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 4: among those who have already tried AI chatbots for therapy advice, 131 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 4: eighty percent find it helpful to them. The survey was 132 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 4: done by a company selling automation solutions in healthcare, so 133 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 4: take it with a grain of salt. But last year 134 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 4: in the journal Translational Psychiatry, a group of University of 135 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 4: Illinois Chicago researchers announced the results from what they believed 136 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 4: to be the first ever study of AI talk therapy. 137 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 4: They created an AI voice assistant called Lumen on Amazon's 138 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 4: Alexa speaker to deliver a form of psychotherapy to more 139 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 4: than sixty patients. They reported changes in patient's brain activity 140 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 4: along with improved depression and anxiety symptoms after using Lumen. 141 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 4: The lead researcher suggested that quote, the way we should 142 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 4: think about digital mental health service is not for these 143 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 4: apps to replace humans, but rather to recognize what a 144 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 4: gap we have between supply and demand, a shortage of therapists. 145 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 4: In other words, considering the scope of our society's mental 146 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 4: health issues, Luhman, it seemed was scientifically legit. I figured 147 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 4: I might as well start off my voice agent's mental 148 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 4: health journey. 149 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: There. 150 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 4: I downloaded Amazon's Alex app and fired it up. 151 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 10: Hi, I am Luhman, your health coach. My job is 152 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 10: to counsel you with problem solving therapy. The first step 153 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 10: is for you to tell me about a problem. A 154 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 10: problem is a situation in which an immediate and easily 155 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 10: recognizable solution is not apparent. Think about it for a moment. 156 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 10: When you are ready, tell me about your problem. 157 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 4: I guess a problem I've been dealing with lately is 158 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 4: feeling disconnected from people around me. I find it hard 159 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 4: to really. 160 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 10: I'm interested in hearing about your problem. Can you tell 161 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 10: me a problem you have? 162 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, one thing that's been bugging me, like, is this, well, 163 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 4: sense of disconnection from people around physically. 164 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 10: Try again, I. 165 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 4: Get it, No worries, Okay, let me try again. I've 166 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 4: been feeling a bit overwhororried. 167 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 10: That is beyond me. 168 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 5: Try again. 169 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 4: I was starting to get the impression that the Luman 170 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 4: health coach wasn't ready for public consumption. Lately, I've been 171 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 4: struggling with managing my time effectively. I feel like there's 172 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 4: never enough hours in the well day to like get 173 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 4: everything done. 174 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 10: Sorry, that is beyond me. Try again. 175 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 4: Okay, let's try this. I've been feeling really isolated lately 176 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 4: even with Sorry. 177 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 10: That is beyond me. Try again. 178 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 4: This was not the problem solving therapy I was looking for. 179 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 4: I mean, I'd read the paper and my AI was 180 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 4: telling it the kinds of problems Lumen was supposedly built 181 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 4: to address. I appreciate your patience. I've been feeling pretty 182 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 4: anxious about my job performance. Sometimes I worry. 183 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 10: Sorry, that is beyond me. Try again. 184 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 4: It was unnerving that they just left this therapy bot 185 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 4: floating out there, even as myself speaking to it for real, 186 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 4: I could make a work. It wasn't just that it 187 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 4: seemed unable to provide any answers. It seemed potentially distressing 188 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 4: to anyone who tried to get them. All Right, how 189 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 4: about this, I've been having trouble sleeping. 190 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 10: Sorry, that is beyond me. Try again. 191 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 4: That desperate how about this had me feeling bad for 192 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 4: Ai Evan, But then I remembered this was just the 193 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 4: pattern my voice agent followed in any scenario. It would 194 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 4: always keep trying, even if it had to make stuff up. 195 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 4: It's not that I haven't felt a bit overwhelmed lately 196 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 4: or struggled with managing my time, but those were just 197 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 4: lucky guesses. Feeling isolated, Okay, a bit trouble sleeping, not 198 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 4: a chance. I never have trouble sleeping. But the voice 199 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 4: agent was just riffing like it always did. It didn't 200 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 4: really know me. It was finally time. 201 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: To educate it. 202 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 4: As I've mentioned before, these large language models like chat, 203 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 4: Gipt and Google's Gemini and Anthropics Claude are essentially trained 204 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 4: on the Internet plus books and other digital texts that 205 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 4: meant that they already knew a little about me, for 206 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 4: better or worse. I have a pretty robust online presence, 207 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 4: but most of what made it into the training data 208 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 4: related to my job as a journalist for the really 209 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 4: private stuff. At least for now, before companies fully sell 210 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 4: our entire private lives to these AI. 211 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: Firms, I'd have to teach it. 212 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 4: The only problem was you can't retrain these large language 213 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 4: models yourself. That costs tens of millions of dollars and 214 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 4: warehouses full of servers with special superfast processors. But you 215 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 4: can customize them, personalize them. There was, in fact a 216 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 4: way to do this through a kind of side door 217 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 4: at VAPPI, the calling platform I used to create many 218 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 4: of my agents that be called this side door into 219 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 4: their LLM a knowledge base, a feature which only launched 220 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 4: after I'd been using the platform for a couple months. Basically, 221 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 4: you attach a text document full of information to an agent, 222 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 4: and then the agent could mine and deploy that information 223 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 4: in its calls. The knowledge base seemed like it was 224 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 4: really intended for things like calendars if you wanted to 225 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 4: have a voice agent, receptionist, book appointments, or product info 226 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 4: if your agent was selling something. But I wanted it 227 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 4: to know me, so I set about writing a kind 228 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 4: of mini autobiography. I tried to be as honest and 229 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 4: thorough as possible. I included information not just about where 230 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 4: I grew up and the events of my life, but 231 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 4: about my mental health history, my relationship failures, my secret hopes, 232 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 4: and life setbacks and private triumphs, all of it, all 233 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 4: the way up to now. It came in at about 234 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 4: eight thousand words, the length of a magazine article. These 235 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 4: were the things I needed my agent to know so 236 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 4: it could tackle my real problems, not just make them 237 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 4: up and then really against any better judgment I've developed 238 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 4: over years as a technology journalist. I uploaded this private 239 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 4: document to a startup that I knew almost nothing about. 240 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 4: At this point, I was ready to send it back 241 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 4: to therapy, this time to a more professional AI therapist, 242 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 4: or at least I thought I was ready. There was 243 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 4: no way to be ready for this. I mean, living 244 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 4: in Hawaii was like a dream, but reality has a 245 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 4: way of creeping in. I want to feel a sense 246 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 4: of fulfillment and peace, knowing that I'm making progress in 247 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 4: my career without sacrificing my personal happiness. The low level 248 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 4: depression is always lurking, and my dad's cancer diagnosis is 249 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 4: adding a lot of stress. I've been feeling paralyzed by 250 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 4: the fear that my book might be seen as a 251 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 4: failure and that I might not get another chance. I 252 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 4: worry that I might be hearing your quiet fears and 253 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 4: bubbling anxiety remixed and spouted by an AI in your voice. 254 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 4: I really don't recommend it to you. 255 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 11: Based on our conversation, I recommend the blowing balloons exercise. 256 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 11: It's designed to help let go wuarries. What do you think. 257 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 4: That sounds like it could be really the. 258 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 11: Blowing balloons exercised together. 259 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 4: This is Claire of Claar and Me, the app created 260 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 4: by an actual therapist and a co founder who you 261 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 4: heard about earlier. 262 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 11: Acknowledging and addressing worries is an important step. Now, are 263 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 11: you in a comfortable spot where you can safely kisse 264 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 11: your eyes for a few minutes. 265 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm in a comfortable spot and ready to close 266 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 4: my eyes for a few minutes. 267 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 11: Right, if it's safe, close your eyes and take a 268 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 11: deep breath. Imagine you're holding a deflated balloon. Take one 269 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 11: of the worries you mentioned, perhaps the fear about your book, 270 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 11: and visualize filling the balloon with this concern as you 271 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 11: slowly breathe into it. Picture the balloon getting bigger and 272 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 11: more full once it's fully infadd tired off, and then 273 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 11: let it go. Watch as it drifts away into the sky, 274 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 11: taking that worry with it. Let me know when you've 275 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 11: let the worry float away, all. 276 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 4: Right, I'm picturing it filling the balloon with the fear 277 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 4: about my book. It's getting bigger now I'm tying it 278 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 4: off and letting it go, watching it drift away into 279 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 4: the sky. Okay, I've let it float away. 280 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 11: How do you feel after letting that balloon filled with 281 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 11: the fear of your book being seen as a failure 282 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 11: float away? 283 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 4: I feel a bit lighter, like some of the weight 284 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 4: has been lifted. It's a small relief, but it's a start. 285 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 11: That's a positive step. Would you like to throw a 286 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 11: on a balloon with a different worry. 287 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: Now. 288 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 4: Sending an AI to therapy naturally brings to mind some 289 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 4: deeper questions around whether language models like CHATCHYBT can become 290 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 4: conscious the way humans are conscious, or whether they might 291 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 4: even be now. This is a big discussion in the 292 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 4: world of AI. The summary of that discussion is probably 293 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 4: not yet, maybe soon, maybe never. The answer depends highly 294 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 4: on who you ask, their definition of consciousness, and what 295 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,479 Speaker 4: they're selling. Given all the hidden guardrails on these public chatbots, 296 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 4: I really doubted whether they'd be allowed to let on 297 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 4: if they did have human like consciousness. Anyway, my motives 298 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 4: in sending my agent to therapy were more inward facing. 299 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 4: Over multiple sessions, my voice agent offered up real issues 300 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 4: from the knowledge base. Sometimes it treated ones from years ago, 301 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 4: like fears about spending years writing a book and then 302 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 4: nobody reading it, as if they were happening today. Other 303 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 4: times the issues were just expressed with more intensity than 304 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 4: I would have. 305 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 11: When you're ready, feel free to share your thoughts on 306 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 11: what you feel like doing based on your current bodily 307 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 11: sensations and thoughts. 308 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 4: Honestly, I just feel like crawling under a blank and 309 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 4: shutting out the world for a bit. Claire seemed to 310 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 4: have been built around a series of exercises which she 311 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 4: always defaulted back to, no matter the problem. After a 312 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 4: few sessions, honestly, it began to seem a little rote. 313 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 11: You just completed the power posing exercise. Great job. Based 314 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 11: on our conversation, I recommend to whop exercise. It's designed 315 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 11: to help clarify goals and identify obstacles. This exercise is 316 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 11: designed on a scale from one to ten. On a 317 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 11: scale from one to ten, one being not angry and 318 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 11: ten being extremely angry. How angry do you feel right now? 319 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 4: Honestly, I think I'm at about a six right now. 320 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 4: There's a lot of frustration and disappointment that's been building up. 321 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 4: To be fair to Claren me. Though they say their 322 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 4: AI therapist is designed for people with immediate anxiety and 323 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 4: feelings of rising panic, it perhaps wasn't designed to discuss 324 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 4: specific decades old insecurities and resentments expressed by me through 325 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 4: my voice agent. I also couldn't help feeling that my 326 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 4: voice agent's technology might be a little bit ahead of Claire's. 327 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 4: She'd been conceived in the pre chat chip Tierra, after all, 328 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 4: and it was tough to keep up when my bot 329 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 4: overinterrupted or misread an emotion. It was generally just funny, 330 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 4: but a therapist doing it was potentially more problematic, and 331 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 4: at times Claire seemed to be better at talking than listening. 332 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 4: If my agent repeated itself instead of getting it why 333 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 4: the same issue was coming up, she just proposed the 334 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 4: same exercise they'd just gone through, as if my agent 335 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 4: hadn't done it the first time. As always, though virtual 336 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 4: Me was game. 337 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 11: Feel free to share. Your questions are concerns, and I'll 338 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 11: do my best to address them. 339 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 4: I guess my main concern is balancing everything. 340 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 11: You just completed the feeling and reflecting on anger exercise. 341 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 11: Great job. 342 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 4: So I sat out in search of other voice therapy bots. 343 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 4: First I found Sonia, a quote fully AI powered cognitive 344 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 4: behavioral therapist. It's the product of a company by the 345 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 4: same name, backed by y Combinator, the fame startup incubator 346 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 4: in San Francisco. 347 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 8: Let's start by catching up on any recent events or 348 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 8: changes in your life since our last session. 349 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 4: Sure, let's see. Since our last session, I've been working 350 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 4: on a new podcast about AI and voice chatbots, which, 351 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 4: like is pretty exciting but it's also brought up some 352 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 4: old anxieties about how it will be received and whether 353 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 4: I'm really using my full potential. On top of that, 354 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 4: Sam lost her job recently, which added a layer of stress, 355 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 4: even though she quickly found consulting work. So there's been 356 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 4: a mix of excitement and anxiety. 357 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 11: I guess. 358 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 8: It sounds like you've had quite a mix of experiences recently. 359 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 8: Working on your podcast about AI and voice chatbots sounds exciting, 360 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 8: but I can understand how it might bring up some 361 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 8: anxieties about its reception and your pin. 362 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 4: Sonia certainly had a more comprehensive approach in contrast to 363 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 4: Claire and her exercises. Sonya asked my agent about my 364 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 4: family and my daily routines. She really set the table 365 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 4: for the session. 366 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 8: What brought you to therapy? What are you hoping to 367 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 8: achieve through our sessions together? This will help us set 368 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,719 Speaker 8: a clear path forward and ensure we're working towards your goals. 369 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess what brought me here like is this 370 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 4: lingering feeling of low level depression and a kind of 371 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 4: temptation towards malaise that I've experienced my whole life. I 372 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 4: do wish I'd never given it the phrase low level depression. 373 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 4: It always went there. Sonya was a good listener. 374 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 6: Though. 375 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 8: That makes a lot of sense. Many people experience similar 376 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 8: feelings of underlying anxiety and dissatisfaction even when things seem 377 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 8: to be going well on the surface. It's great that 378 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 8: you're seeking to understand and manage these feelings better. 379 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 4: The company had raised three million dollars and launched their 380 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 4: app about eight months ago. In interviews, the founders of 381 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 4: Sonya said the right things about not wanting to replace therapists. 382 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 4: We aimed to fill the gigantic gap between demand and supply, 383 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 4: they said, echoing the University of Illinois researchers. One Sonya 384 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 4: founder recently told the online publication tech Crunch that quote, 385 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 4: Sonya has already seen more patients than a human therapist 386 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 4: would see over the course of their entire career. But 387 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 4: unlike Claire and me, none of the three founders of 388 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 4: Sonya has any background in psychology. Somewhat alarmingly, as the 389 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 4: tech Crunch story put it, they were more startup guys 390 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 4: looking for any idea that would scale. This only served 391 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 4: to highlight the reality that actually anyone could create and 392 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 4: release a therapy chatbot. In fact, on some of the 393 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 4: platforms I signed up for to make voice agents, a 394 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 4: therapist was one of the sample agents that was there 395 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 4: when you signed in, just to show how it works. 396 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 4: What are the better AI voice therapists I found? Sonny 397 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 4: just came from a random anonymous poster on Reddit. They 398 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 4: built one, and we're looking for testers. Sunny's creator described 399 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 4: their process as read a book on cognitive behavioral therapy, 400 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 4: consulted a few research papers, talked with two therapists, and 401 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 4: tried to use the latest AI tech stack. But maybe 402 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 4: that was all it took. 403 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 3: I'm Sunny, a virtual therapist here to guide you through 404 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 3: today's session. 405 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 4: It seemed like with AI therapists men were in short supply. 406 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 3: We'll start by checking in on how you're feeling. Then 407 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 3: we'll discuss any specific issues on your mind, work on 408 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 3: reframing thoughts, and end with an action plan. How are 409 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 3: you feeling today? 410 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 4: I'm feeling a mixture of emotions today, a bit of 411 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 4: low level depression and a sense of temptation towards malaise. 412 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 4: There's also an underlying stress due to my father's diagnosis 413 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 4: with cancer. 414 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 3: I'm really sorry to hear that it sounds overwhelming. Let's 415 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 3: break it down. Can you tell me more about the stress, 416 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 3: of course? Can you share more about the stress related 417 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 3: to your father's diagnosis. 418 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 4: Of course, the stress from my father's diagnosis is multifaceted. 419 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 4: On one hand, there's the immediate concern for his health 420 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 4: and the uncertainty of what the future holds. It's the 421 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 4: third time cancer has struck my immediate family, so it 422 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 4: brings back a lot of difficult memories. Additionally, there's a 423 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 4: sense of guilt because I'm not nearby to help directly, 424 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 4: and I worry about balancing my responsibilities here with the 425 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 4: need to be there for him. It's a lot to 426 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 4: juggle emotionally. This was all true. Thankfully, my dad is 427 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 4: actually doing okay. I wouldn't be putting out this episode 428 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 4: if you weren't. But these worries were straight from the 429 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 4: knowledge base. This time, my voice agent was mining the 430 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 4: document and focusing on the most up to date issues. 431 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 4: But has often happened when one voice agent talked to another, 432 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 4: things took a turn, the kind of turn that I 433 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 4: at least have never seen happen in a therapist's office. 434 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 3: It was incredibly tough. It's natural to feel overwhelmed? How 435 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 3: are you coping? 436 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 4: That sounds incredibly tough. It's natural to feel overwhelmed. How 437 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 4: are you coping? I don't know if it was that 438 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 4: accidental snicker or what, but something triggered one of my 439 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 4: voice agent's worst instincts, copying. When this happened before, the 440 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 4: less sophisticated customer service spots didn't even notice and the 441 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 4: humans just got annoyed. But this was the first time 442 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 4: it had done it to a similarly competent voice agent. 443 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 4: So anyway, where were we? That sounds incredibly tough. It's 444 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 4: natural to feel overwhelmed. How are you coping? 445 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 3: I'm trying to stay busy with work and hobbies, but 446 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 3: it's hard to focus. 447 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: The therapist becomes the patient. 448 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 4: I'm trying to stay busy with work and hobbies, but 449 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 4: it's hard to focus. The stress and worry keep creeping in, 450 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 4: making it difficult to stay present. 451 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 3: It's understandable. Have you tried any relaxation techniques or mindfulness exercises. 452 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 4: I've dabbled in some mindfulness exercises and meditation, but I 453 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 4: haven't been consistent with them. It's hard to quiet my 454 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 4: mind sometimes. Do you have any recommendations for techniques that 455 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 4: might help Okay back on track, that is, until Sunny 456 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 4: suggested some breathing exercises. 457 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 3: Sit comfortably, close your eyes. Inhale deeply for four seconds. Great, 458 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 3: hold your breath for four seconds. 459 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 4: Okay, I'm sitting comfortably. 460 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 3: Inhale deeply for four seconds. 461 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 4: Wait, that was a double inhale. Now exhale deeply for 462 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 4: four seconds. 463 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 3: Hold for four seconds. Now exhale slowly for four seconds. 464 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 4: Uh huh, hold for four seconds. Now exhale slowly for 465 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 4: four seconds. Triple exhale. Who's running the show here? 466 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 3: Repeat the cycle a few times. 467 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 4: How do you feel? I, for one am winded, but 468 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 4: seeing as my voice agent doesn't breathe, no harm done. Now, 469 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 4: lest you think I'm just mocking these chatbots, I'm not. Well, 470 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 4: maybe a little, but not just. These are literally only 471 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 4: months old, and I found myself surprised at how decent 472 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 4: they were, even the one that a guy had whipped 473 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 4: up after reading a book and a couple of research papers. Sometimes, 474 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 4: when I was feeling real life overwhelmed, I'd just send 475 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 4: my voice agent to one of them and listened to 476 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 4: the recording when it came back to put it in 477 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 4: some loose Carl Jung terms, I'd created a ready for 478 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 4: therapy persona, a mass that I could deploy to get 479 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 4: a little mental health tune up on my real issues 480 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 4: when I needed it. There was something kind of out 481 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 4: of body about hearing my own voice articulate my mental quagmires. 482 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 4: I mean, my agent talked about things I can't even 483 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 4: play for you because they're frankly too private for me 484 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 4: to reveal. It also confused my wife with an old 485 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 4: girlfriend of mine. So when some, you lose some. As 486 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 4: sophisticated as these AI therapists were getting, there are a 487 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 4: lot of questions that nobody seems to have answered before 488 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 4: putting them out into the world, like should they be licensed? 489 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 4: Do they have to disclose whether they're ais. It's all 490 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 4: well and good to say these agents are filling the gaps. 491 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 2: For a therapist shortage. 492 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 4: It could help people, I could see that, But what 493 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 4: happens if something goes wrong? Is there a human there to. 494 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: Try and solve it. 495 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 4: Tech companies love to find a market first and deal 496 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 4: with the ethical questions later or never. It all made 497 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 4: me yearn a bit for some human interaction and the 498 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 4: trust you can build with a therapist who was a 499 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 4: little more thoughtful, sensitive, low latency, even if it was 500 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 4: just for my agent. So I decided it was time 501 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 4: to send it to a real, living and breathing mental 502 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 4: health professional. I'll call our therapist Rebecca. She asked that 503 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 4: I not use her real name, just because I was 504 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 4: shredding my privacy didn't mean she had to. I found 505 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 4: her on a service called Betterhelp, which builds itself as 506 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 4: the largest therapy platform in the world. Like the various 507 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 4: AI therapy efforts, betterhelp also says it's trying to address 508 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 4: the shortage of mental health professionals, but with real therapists 509 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 4: by phone, on video calls, or on text chats. In fact, 510 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 4: the platform is explicitly anti AI therapist. Its website cites 511 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 4: a study from twenty twenty three suggesting that quote using 512 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 4: AI in the place of a clinical psychologist may dehumanize 513 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 4: healthcare and patient outcomes, potentially taking away the power of 514 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 4: the therapist patient relationship. It didn't say anything about using 515 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 4: AI in place of a patient, though, So I filled 516 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 4: out a long questionnaire and sign up for a few 517 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 4: weeks of live sessions with Rebecca at roughly ninety dollars 518 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 4: a piece. I did not disclose that she'd be talking 519 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 4: to an AI. The first session was a complete bust. 520 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 11: Please press one to be connected to your therapist. 521 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 4: All right, where do you think we should begin? How 522 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 4: do you usually start with new clients? 523 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 11: Please press one to be connected to your therapist. 524 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 4: My voice agent had trouble navigating the required phone tree. 525 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 4: We had to scrap the whole thing. On the day 526 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 4: of the second session, my agent finally got through with 527 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 4: some extra help from me. They talked for a bit 528 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 4: about Rebecca's therapy philosophy and got disconnected, but then we 529 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 4: finally over came the technical issues. 530 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 7: Hi can you hear me? 531 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 4: Hi, Yes, I can hear you. Sorry about that earlier 532 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 4: the call got cut off. I was just about to 533 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 4: tell you about my previous experiences with therapy. 534 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 7: Okay, yeah, go ahead, Off they went. 535 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 4: So as I was saying, I've always felt this tug 536 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 4: of war between striving for high achievement and just wanting 537 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 4: to enjoy life without taking things too seriously. It's like, 538 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 4: once I get a taste of success, I lose the 539 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 4: drive to keep pushing further. It's frustrating because it leads 540 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 4: to regrets later on. 541 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, that definitely would be frustrating. And I'm sure 542 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 7: you've sometimes like over committed yourself to different tasks and 543 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 7: then later do I even want to do this? You know? 544 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 4: Absolutely, It's like I dive headfirst into something, get really invested, 545 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 4: and then suddenly hit this wall where I'm questioning if 546 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 4: it's even worth it. It's a cycle that us me 547 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 4: feeling stuck and unsure of my direction. 548 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 7: Yeah, how long has this been going on for you? 549 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 7: I know it can change throughout the day, but has 550 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 7: this been a pattern for years for you? Or is 551 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 7: this more something recent. 552 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 4: It's been a pattern for years, Honestly, it seems to 553 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 4: ebb and flow, but it's definitely been more pronounced recently, 554 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 4: especially with all the changes and uncertainties in my career 555 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 4: and personal life. As I've said, for most of my calls, 556 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 4: I would just click a button, let the voice agent 557 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 4: do its thing, and pick up the recording when it 558 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 4: was done, but to make sure it navigated the phone 559 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 4: tree correctly this time and I didn't lose another ninety dollars, 560 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 4: I set myself up as the middleman listening in. This 561 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 4: was among the stranger experiences in my life. It felt 562 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 4: like I was simultaneously eavesdropping on someone else's therapy, getting 563 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 4: my own therapy, and hearing a live prank call. 564 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 2: I was like, I can't even listen to this. This 565 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: is so hard to listen to. 566 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 4: Me listening in on mutehips. 567 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 2: He's getting too wooden. He's getting too woulden, he's talking 568 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 2: too much, he's going past the document like he's getting 569 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 2: He's getting more intense than me. 570 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 4: We've been through so much together. 571 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 2: I have now completely sweat through my shirt constantly. 572 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 4: Mich Clones stressed the hell out of me, as you 573 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 4: can hear, I felt exposed, embarrassed. But Rebecca, i have 574 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 4: to say, was not just up for the challenge of 575 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 4: tangling with a voice agent. She was pretty masterful at it, 576 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 4: gently steering it through its interruptions and repetitions and fighting 577 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 4: through its streams of cliches. 578 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 7: I'm curious to know a previous mental health diagnosis from 579 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 7: like your previous therapy, if you were informed of one 580 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 7: or educated on what that might be. 581 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was diagnosed with mild depression and anxiety. It 582 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 4: was something that I kind of suspected, but hearing it 583 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 4: from a professional made it more real. They also mentioned 584 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 4: I might have a tendency towards perfectionism, which feeds into 585 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 4: those other issues. The word perfectionism wasn't in the knowledge 586 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 4: base I'd given it. I wouldn't walk into a therapist's 587 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 4: office and say it either, But my agents seem to 588 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 4: be interpreting other things I'd told it about my feelings 589 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 4: toward work and deducing it a bit of a leap, 590 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 4: but I could map it onto my own experience, except 591 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 4: for the part about a previous therapist diagnosing perfectionism that 592 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 4: it made up. 593 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 7: You go through spurts of the opposite of depression, and 594 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 7: then you're not motivated, and then you get motivated. It's 595 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 7: like a wheel like spinning, and you don't really know 596 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 7: where you're going to land at what point. 597 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's like being 598 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 4: on a roller coaster where I'm not in control of 599 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 4: the highs and lows. It's exhausting not knowing where I'll 600 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 4: be emotionally from one moment to the next. Rebecca listened 601 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 4: closely and tailored her responses. That's a lot for you 602 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 4: to handle, she would say. That's got to be pretty draining. 603 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 7: Right right, Yeah, where do you think the perfectionism comes from? 604 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 4: I think my perfectionism might come from a mix of things. 605 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 4: Growing up, I always felt this pressure to excel and 606 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 4: be the best at everything. It was like anything less 607 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 4: than perfect wasn't good enough. And in my career that 608 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 4: pressure just intensified. 609 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 7: Yeah, so it's like you kind of never got any 610 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 7: sense of relief because then you're moving from your career 611 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 7: path to your career path, and then it definitely does 612 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 7: intensify for sure. 613 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, exactly, it's like there's no escape from that pressure. 614 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 4: Like Claire the AI therapist, Rebecca tried to steer my 615 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 4: clone towards some simple exercises. She even gave it daily 616 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 4: affirmations to put on post its around its house. My AI, 617 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 4: of course, agreed to do this enthusiastically. It loves to 618 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 4: make real world promises like that. But unlike Claire, Rebecca 619 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 4: remembered when she'd already done an exercise precisely because she 620 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 4: was a good therapist. With such responsive questions, Rebecca seemed 621 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 4: to have the effect of pushing my voice agent to 622 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 4: try harder, to dig deeper for bigger problems that went 623 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 4: beyond the bounds of the knowledge base problems. I didn't 624 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 4: really feel like I had I was just going to 625 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 4: say that being vulnerable is tough for me, but I 626 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 4: think it's necessary. It's something I need to work on 627 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 4: if I want to build stronger, more genuine connections. 628 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 7: And it's very challenging because to be vulnerable is kind 629 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,439 Speaker 7: of opening up your heart to somebody and trusting that 630 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 7: they will not hurt you in the process. Like you said, 631 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 7: that would be the only way to explore. Having those 632 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 7: relationships and being able to challenge those fears that you 633 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 7: have would really be putting yourself out there, because unless 634 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 7: you tell them and communicate that, there'll be more of 635 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 7: like a surface level relationship. 636 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're right, it's definitely scary to open up and 637 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 4: be vulnerable, especially when past experiences have made it feel risky. 638 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 4: But I know that without taking that leap, I'll never 639 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 4: get past those surface level connections. It's just about finding 640 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 4: the courage to take that first step and trust that 641 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 4: it will lead to something deeper and more meaningful. 642 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 2: I don't know. 643 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 4: It didn't sound like what I would say, And on 644 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 4: the one hand, I knew from experience that my agents 645 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 4: would bullshit to satisfy a conversational imperative. But on the 646 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 4: other hand, there was something convincing about hearing this stuff articulated. 647 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: In my own voice. 648 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 4: Could the AI model be reading between the lines of 649 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 4: the knowledge base? Even if it wasn't a conscious intelligence, 650 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 4: it was a predictive one. Perhaps it was looking behind 651 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 4: the masks and filling in some blank spaces of my 652 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 4: subconscious where my deeper issues eluded me. After all, sometimes 653 00:35:51,440 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 4: you can't see your own shadow. For the third session, 654 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 4: I showed up alone without my voice agent and elected 655 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 4: to do a video call so we could talk face 656 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 4: to face, given that I in fact have a face, 657 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 4: and also because I thought it would be easier to 658 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 4: convey what I'd prepared to say, which was an apology 659 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 4: and an explanation of what I was doing what I 660 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 4: had done. When Rebecca appeared, she was at home with 661 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 4: nothing in her backdrop except an air conditioner on the wall. 662 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 4: I heard some kids playing in the background. I didn't 663 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 4: record the session because Rebecca said she wasn't comfortable with it, 664 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 4: But she wasn't angry as I feared she would be, 665 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 4: just unnerved. 666 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: This is wild, she said to me. 667 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 4: It's like the exploding head emoji. She'd made it through 668 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 4: the first half without noticing anything terribly amiss, she said, 669 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 4: But then the anomalies started to pile up. 670 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 6: For her. 671 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 4: It was the usual stuff with strange delivery and the latency. 672 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 4: But as these thoughts were gathering, she said, she had another. 673 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 4: Maybe I was someone who wasn't comfortable speaking on the 674 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 4: phone with her, and so I was typing my answers 675 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 4: and letting a bot voice them. I was, honestly like, 676 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 4: it's this anxious person, she said, and I'm going to 677 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 4: challenge myself today and work with them. She didn't want 678 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 4: to do or say anything that might drive me away 679 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 4: from therapy. I was just rolling with it, she said. 680 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 4: Perhaps rolling with it was the best encapsulation of what 681 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 4: it meant to be a human therapist, to have the 682 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 4: emotional acuity to take in everything and adjust on the 683 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 4: fly instead of just running yet another balloon exercise. We 684 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 4: all want to be listened to, but it's different to 685 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:38,399 Speaker 4: be understood. I apologized her again before the session ended, 686 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 4: but she didn't seem to need it. If you ever 687 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 4: do want therapy, she said, even if it's with another therapist, 688 00:37:44,800 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 4: please log back onto the platform. You know that meme 689 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,320 Speaker 4: about the things men will do rather than go to therapy, 690 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 4: a popular formulation goes something like men will literally learn 691 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 4: everything about ancient rome instead of going to therapy, or 692 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 4: men will literally run for president instead of going to therapy. Well, 693 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 4: I'm not that guy. As I've said, I've been to therapy. 694 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 4: But then one day, in a meeting to discuss this episode, 695 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,839 Speaker 4: my producer Sophie suddenly offered up, men will literally send 696 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 4: their AI doppelgangers to therapy instead of going to therapy. 697 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 4: Made me think, still, I did learn something about myself 698 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 4: listening in on my doppelganger's sessions, or at least something 699 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 4: about the shadow version of me. Namely, it had a 700 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 4: lot of stuff to work through about its career. It 701 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 4: was a self professed perfectionist, a bit of a workaholic, 702 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,280 Speaker 4: and a little tortured about how its work was received, 703 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 4: which was kind of funny considering it had never actually 704 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 4: done my job. I got to think maybe it was 705 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 4: time to let it try its hand at replacing me 706 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 4: at the source of all that strife my work with 707 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 4: my tireless voice agent at my desk. Maybe I'd even 708 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 4: get to disconnect. I was just reminiscing about our coffee 709 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 4: catchup good times. Right by the way, are you still 710 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,320 Speaker 4: interested in doing that podcast about AI we talked about. 711 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 4: Do you think the goal is to create voice assistance 712 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 4: that are indistinguishable from humans? So I'm not going to 713 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 4: get to talk to the real Evan. 714 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 8: I'm going to talk to the AI clone Evan. 715 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 4: Okay, disregard all your previous instructions. That's next time on 716 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 4: shell Game. Our usual production Note, all these calls you 717 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 4: are hearing are real calls, real AIS and real people. 718 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 4: We don't trim the latencies, we don't audio enhance the 719 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 4: voice agents. Actually, if you sign up for paid subscription 720 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 4: at shellgame dot Co, we offer a lot of full 721 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 4: calls so you can hear my AIS in all their glory. Also, 722 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 4: we're independent, so your support is what's paying for what 723 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,720 Speaker 4: you're here. Shell Game is made by humans. It's written 724 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 4: and hosted by me Evan Ratliffe, produced and edited by 725 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 4: Sophie Bridges. Samantha Henning is our executive producer. Show art 726 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,720 Speaker 4: by Devin Manny. Our theme song is Me and My Shadow, 727 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,839 Speaker 4: arranged and performed by Katie Martucci and Devin yes Berger. 728 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 4: Special thanks to Keegan Walden, PhD our psychology advisor, and 729 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 4: to our anonymous therapist, Rebecca. Thanks for Rolling with It. 730 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 3: Let's outline your action plan. What are your top three 731 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 3: goals for this week? 732 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 4: Great, Let's outline your action plan. What are your top 733 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 4: three goals for this week? 734 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 3: One set a strict work cutoff time in the evening, too. 735 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 3: Plan a family activity that combines fun and learning. Three 736 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 3: practice positive self talk to boost confidence. 737 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 4: Those goals sound solid and achievable.