WEBVTT - Martin Torgoff on Jazz, Race, The Beats & Drugs 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.480 Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.400 an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.720 even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.680 should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:44.960 any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners, Well, today's episode 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:48.720 is fairly close to my heart. It's on the subject 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:56.200 of jazz and drugs and race and the beats. My 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.280 guest today is Martin to Goof. He's an award winning 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.920 journalist and author. He's a documentary filmmaker. He's an Emmy 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:09.240 nominated television writer, director and producer. Uh. He's got two 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.840 books of great relevance to the subject and also to 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.200 my life. The first one was a book called Can't 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.600 Find My Way Home about America and the great Stoned 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.640 Age to two thousand and we'll talk about that a 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.240 little bit, but we're really focusing on a book that 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:31.560 he published a few years ago called Bop Apocalypse, Jazz Race, 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.839 the Beats and Drugs. So, Martin, thank you so much 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.639 for joining me today on Psychoactive. Thank you for having 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.200 me Ethan. It's always interesting and fun to talk to you. 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.280 I think when we think about the origins of jazz 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:52.200 and drugs and especially marijuana, there's no place to start 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:57.240 but with Louis Armstrong. So Louis Armstrong and marijuana. Martin 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:01.080 talk about Louis Armstrong, how special and incredible he was, 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:05.480 and and his connection to marijuana. What always fascinated me 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:10.760 about this subject was that marijuana appears on the streets 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.720 of New Orleans at just around the same time that 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.040 jazz begins to percolate. So they were always there together, 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.320 um you know, and it was always a kind of 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:28.120 symbiotic relationship from the very beginning. Like you're talking around 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:34.239 nineteen eleven. So by the time, um, you know, Armstrong 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.959 is a teenager in New Orleans, that entire culture has 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:45.000 been just beginning to really coalesced in a very significant way. 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:50.160 What happens is that the artists begin making their way 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:54.519 up the Mississippi River to Chicago, and in a way, 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.880 the marijuana follows them. So in a way you can 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.680 like follow the story of marijuana, want to and jazz 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:05.920 together with Louis Armstrong up to Chicago where it begins 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.080 to blossom at the Lincoln Gardens with his creativity up there, 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:14.760 and then it goes down to Kansas City, it goes 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:20.519 across to Harlem, and that's really the beginning of it. 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.400 So Louis fell in love with jazz and fell in 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:28.440 love with weed. I mean, jazz came first. Uh, he 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:32.280 did not turn on until he got to Chicago, and 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.560 all of the musicians of the time talk about his 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:40.560 love affair with it. So he's he's his powerful figure. 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.680 But marijuana, I mean, was there any way which marijuana 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.400 was a negative in his life or was it all positive? 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.000 Not in his life? Not in his life, And he 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:55.400 would talk openly about, you know, the many ways that 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.920 he characterized it as a positive impact on his life. 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:04.240 One of the really amazing things about looking at um 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:08.400 all of these jazz artists, the many different ones and 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:14.400 their journeys through the use of different substances, is how 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:19.360 from the very beginning you can see people who were 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:23.040 able to use it in a positive way and set 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:28.520 boundaries about it and those who um, who weren't who 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.720 had a very different um kind of relationship with the 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:37.560 substances that became problematical really the difference between use and 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.400 abuse in you know, and and it's very kind of 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:47.440 organic application, right, But with marijuana it typically was not 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:49.960 a negative in the way, whereas heroin became a very 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.680 much more mixed story in subsequent decades. Right, yes, yes, 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.520 you know, I mean absolutely. It wasn't like he was 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:02.600 a propagator, um, a soletizer for it, because that wasn't 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:06.119 the case. But he was just honest about it, and 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.000 you know, he believed that it was positive to a 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.880 lot of people. His relationship with it always kind of 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:18.239 embodied his kind of genial, live and let live kind 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:22.360 of attitude about life. You know, his kind of enjoyment 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.440 of things. You know, he was a really beautiful man. 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.000 You know, you sort of look back and you look 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.520 at his smile. He had a philosophy of life that 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:37.520 was really positive. He had a philosophy of America that 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:42.080 was really positive, and you know, his relationship with the 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:47.920 weed was really very much embroidered into that philosophy. I 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.400 remember one time meeting um, somebody who had been in 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:53.960 charge of his U s I a U S Information 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:58.080 Agency tour in Africa maybe in late fifties early sixties. 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.240 I remember describing to me what it was like, you know, 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.640 because he was not going to travel anywhere without his weed, 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.080 and she had to make sure that that was not 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:08.560 going to be a problem as they crossed borders. But 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:10.560 he was determined, and in a way, it was a 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.160 small world around him that I think made sure Louis 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.400 Armstrong was not going to spend another day in jail, 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:18.880 even though marijuana was inna you know, part of his 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:23.799 everyday life experience. Yes, Um, he was literally the first 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:29.120 celebrity marijuana bust in American history. It happened in Los Angeles, 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:34.040 and um he was actually set up, and um, when 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.480 he came back to Chicago, he was really worried that 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.360 it was going to, um have a negative impact on 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.800 his career. And it didn't. And the reason that it 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.400 didn't was because by that time, the people who were 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.160 listening to jazz were really beginning to coalesce into a 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.479 whole culture, into a viper culture. Um, you know, in 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:59.400 in Harlem, around places like uh, you know, the Savoy Ballroom, 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.919 and it was more widespread. I mean, it certainly wasn't, 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:07.599 you know, a mainstream thing. Obviously that didn't happen until 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.000 you know, the mid to late length nineties, sixties and seventies. 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.000 But there were enough people who were, you know, listening 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:19.800 to jazz, going to see jazz, buying jazz records, who 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:25.160 were aware of marijuana, and you know, they weren't going 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:27.960 to hold that against him by any means. I think 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:29.880 you write in your book that he sat down he 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.800 wrote a letter to President Eisenhower telling him that marijuana 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.680 should be legal. So he was not inhibited about expressing 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.520 his views on that thing. You know, No, No, he 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.880 wasn't inhibited at all. So the question that rises with 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:47.440 marijuana is why the connection between marijuana and jazz. I mean, 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:49.640 at one point, you quote Norman Mailer is saying he 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.320 couldn't think of one without the other. But for the 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.040 musicians themselves, what was it that made it um, that 0:07:56.120 --> 0:08:01.280 made marijuana special. Well, for one thing, it was just there, 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.280 you know, and it was just a part of their lifestyle. 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:09.920 I think it was Dexter Gordon, the great saxophonist, who 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:17.960 who called jazz lifestyle as music and um by the 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:22.240 same token you could call the beat generation lifestyle of literature, 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:28.760 and marijuana was was an integral part of that lifestyle. 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.840 So so it was just there, and from the very 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:38.000 beginning it was obvious to the people that smoked it 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:42.839 and played the music that you know, there were aspects 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:50.760 of the marijuana experience that resonated powerfully and creatively for 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:55.080 them in playing it, in playing it alone, and in 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.800 playing it with each other, so that it became a 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.680 part of the experience ense of performing it, and it 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.520 became part of the experience of recording it. Well, you know, 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:08.400 in the book, I mean you talk about some of 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:10.360 these I mean, it was all subtle and nuance and 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.120 as you say, interwoven. The cause of relationships are hard 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:17.240 to identify, but that sometimes marijuana gave some players, you know, 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.360 a sense of courage if they were a young musician 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.120 coming up, and would able them to just feel that 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.120 much more confident, which would shape their jazz because feeling 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.559 confident was better in performance than not. You talk about 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:31.640 maybe it helped to reduce inhibitions and therefore, you know, 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:36.000 led to greater improvisation and experimentation. Uh. You talked about 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:37.760 some of these writers saying that they could. Actually it 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.600 wasn't they played better, but that they could hear better. 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.840 Here one another better, right, I mean, I mean that element. 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.000 Never mind the fact that it was preferable to all 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.760 the other psychoactive substances like alcohol and heroin, which we'll 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.360 get into shortly, in terms of one's health and not 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:54.400 giving people a hangover and staying healthy for a lifetime. 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.440 You know, there are so many different opinions about it. 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:00.840 I mean, for example, John Hammond, who was you know, 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:05.760 like a major figure in the jazz culture of that 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:10.079 era in terms of like producing the music. He hated 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:14.160 the presence of weed in the lifestyles and the musicians 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.200 because he felt that well, for one thing, it made 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:21.760 them liable for persecution, but also he felt that it 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.680 played havoc with their sense of time. And a lot 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.319 of musicians would disagree with him about it. I mean, 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.760 he wasn't a smoker, so he wouldn't have known. You know. 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:36.079 At one point, I was reading something that Charles Baudelaire 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:40.040 wrote about the effects of hashi, you know, Charles Baudelaire, 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:44.319 the French poet. He called it a mirror that magnifies, 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.360 yet only a mirror, And I found that to be 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:53.160 very very useful in considering the relationship between you know, 0:10:53.280 --> 0:11:00.520 the substances and the musicianship. These musicians were all unbelievable artists. 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:06.840 They were disciplined, they practiced endlessly, you know, their entire 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:12.160 lives were devoted to their art form. And I don't 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.760 think that marijuana, you know, in and of itself, you know, 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:20.840 made any of them innately better musicians. Um. You know, 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:26.000 it couldn't like put talent uh there that wasn't already there. 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.679 But what it could do was it could amplify that 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.480 talent in different ways. And I think I think that 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:38.480 the answer is like somehow contained in that kind of thesis. 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.120 I'll tell you that even today, when I find myself 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.160 now is things are opening up post pandemic. I find 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:44.920 myself going to jazz clips in New York more and 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.040 more frequently. And what they I like to do is 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.480 to like take a little finally grammedable before I go, 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.880 and it just enhances the appreciation and especially my ability 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:58.880 to appreciate some of the more out there improvisation. M Yeah, 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.800 I think you know, you hear it over and over again. 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:07.080 I mean I think it just opens your musical mind, uh, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.480 there's just something about it. As Mesro, there was a 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:14.120 musician who fell in love with the blues, fell in 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:19.960 love with weed, and he and was himself, I mean 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.200 when he played clarinet or something. Yeah, he was. He 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:25.960 was a clarinetist. But there in his book Really the Blues, 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:30.360 there is a passage in which he describes the first 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:34.880 time that he ever smoked and went out on the 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.439 on the bandstand to play. And to me, it's one 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:42.720 of the most resonant pieces of writing that I've ever 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:49.280 come across about, you know, the potential of taking a 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:55.400 musician's mind or a listeners mind and just kind of 0:12:55.440 --> 0:13:01.920 like opening it. Um. It's really it's really a remarkable 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.679 piece of writing. If you want, I'll read you a 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:10.520 little a little passage of what he wrote about. This 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.760 is him, um, going out to play under the influence 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.040 for the first time. The first thing I noticed was 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.240 that I began to hear my saxophone as though it 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.360 were inside by head. But I couldn't hear much of 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.520 the bend in back of me, although I knew they 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.679 were there. All the other instruments sounded like they were 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.880 way off in the distance. I got the same sensation 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.000 you'd get if you stuffed your ears with cotton and 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.880 talked out loud. Then I began to feel the vibrations 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.840 of the read much more pronounced against my lip, and 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:47.120 my head buzzed like a loudspeaker. I found I was 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:51.079 slurring much better and putting just the right feeling into 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:55.120 my phrases. I was really coming on. All the notes 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.880 came easing out of my horn like they had already 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:03.080 been made up, greased, and stuffed into a bell. So 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:05.880 all I had to do was blow a little and 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.240 send them on their way, one right after the other, 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.920 never missing, never behind me, all without an ounce of effort. 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.640 The phrases seemed to have more continuity to them, and 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.880 I was sticking to the theme without ever going tangent. 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.040 I felt like I could go on playing for years 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:32.640 without running out of ideas or energy. And that's uh, 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.520 that's it. Well, you know, it's interesting. At one point, 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.400 you know, you talked about Alan Ginsburg, the great poet, 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.480 the one who wrote the you know, the poem Howell, 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:45.040 which is, you know, perhaps the most famous poem American 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:47.600 poem writter in America in the mid twentieth century, or 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.560 maybe even the entire second half of the twentie century, 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.200 but him being very influenced not just by jazz, but 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.520 by mes Mesro's book that he was it was formative 0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:01.560 for him. Yeah, he found it in the the Columbia 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.760 bookstore when he was a student at Columbia, you know, 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:09.280 in the forties, and he was very, very interested in 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:14.640 experiencing marijuana. And that book was like the Rosetta Stone 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.720 for him because it showed him that it emerged from 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:23.520 a whole cultural sensibility in the United States, and that 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:30.479 really began his whole lifelong interest in um learning about drugs, 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:35.400 learning about their origins, learning about their cultural origins, understanding 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:39.480 the spiritual connotations of them. You know, the beats were 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:47.120 so uh amazing because that's a literature in which the 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:53.120 writers were imbued with the experiences of these substances. At 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.080 the same time as they were trying to find a 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:01.400 new form that was like jazz, they were trying to 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.760 write like the jazz musicians were playing. So you have 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:11.000 a literature that's imbued and catalyzed by the experiencing of 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:16.520 these substances, about these substances, in which you have writing 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.760 for you know, a popular audience. Really in this country 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:25.960 for the first time about these substances. So it's it's 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:31.320 just it's groundbreaking from all of those different aspects. Well, 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.480 he's talking the book about you know, some of these 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.280 early before they become famous, they're going up to the 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.720 jazz clubs in Harlem and elsewhere. You talk about Lester Young, 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:41.640 who will get to in a moment um, you know, 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.480 giving Jack Carroll at his first joint um. So yeah, 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.920 definitely changed his life for sure. Yeah, yeah, it did, 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.600 it really did. Just to go back to the jazz 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:56.480 for a second, just talk about Lester Young nicknamed Praz 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.960 you know him and the saxophone to some extent, begins 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.400 to redefine jazz in the thirties and he's somebody for 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:07.000 whom also marijuana is important in his life, although he's 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.480 unfortunately caught up in other drugs, notably alcohol. But I 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.000 think at one point you say he may have been 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.440 the most influential of all jazz musicians, which surprised me 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:19.840 a bit. But explain why it was his style that 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:24.359 was really so influential as well as his unique musicianship. 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.679 He was such a singular personality. Um, you know his background, 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.920 he you know, he came from this band, that um, 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:37.399 this musical family, and he was very sensitive and he 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.080 was very devastated by his experiences of the racism of 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:44.960 that time. He also was really really in love with weed. 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.399 What it did for Prez was it pulled him into 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.680 himself and it allowed him to create his own kind 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:57.800 of insulated musical world in which he kind of became 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:02.679 this very singular personality. So that was his impact. He 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.600 drew people into that, like that little bubble that he 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:11.920 wove around himself, and in that bubble was his incredible, 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:17.920 fertile creativity and also his sensibility, his unique sensibility. I mean, 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:22.880 he really was the inventor of pool as it came 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:26.320 to be known in the thirties and forties and fifties. 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.200 I mean, you can almost trace it back to this 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.679 one individual in his demeanor, in how he walked and 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:39.200 how he talked, his invention of of jive, his use 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:43.000 of these words that became um, you know, like staples 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:47.520 in the vernacular. I mean, he was so unbelievably inventive 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:53.119 in every possible way. We'll be talking more after we 0:18:53.200 --> 0:19:10.560 hear this ad. You mentioned some of the expressions that 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.919 he probably coined. I got it. Made I got eyes 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.520 for that copycat. Even the Big Apple is the nickname 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.119 from New York, the word crib for one's home, the 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.040 word bread for money, and would even end sentences of 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.320 conversations by saying you dig I mean, and then of 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.240 course the expression cool as in that's cool man. So 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:33.200 once again, as with Louie Armstrong, whether they originated or popularized, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.200 but you know, it's a formative influence in American culture, 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.840 not just through their music, but even through their own 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:43.160 way of talking, of speaking of creating new language. And 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:48.920 also it's interesting to consider, uh, you know, the impact 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:53.560 of the weed on his musical style because it was 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:59.760 so emblematic really of his personality. He was kind of 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:04.359 like very very laid back in his tone. It was 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:08.040 a very sweet tone, and he would just kind of 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.719 like lay back and then all of a sudden, just 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:18.439 in the most tasteful way, just completely take over the 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:23.639 music and just elevate it to this very very unique place. 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.520 And that was how people kind of saw him. He 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:29.960 was kind of a very laid back guy. He was 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.199 very shy. He was like a laggard, you know, he 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.879 was just kind of like hang there and then like 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.000 draw you in and then just take you somewhere. And 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:45.760 his relationship with Billie Holiday was one of them, you know, 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:51.879 really signature creative relationships of that entire era in the music. 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.200 Well we'll get into Billie Holliday shortly, but once again 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.159 to jump forward into the beat, I mean for Alan Ginsberg. 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:05.359 Ginsburg you say was strongly influenced by Lester Young, and 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.840 notably I think his songs I got rid them Let's 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:21.680 hear a little clip and Lester leaps in Let's hear 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:37.840 a clip. So talk about that connection, Martin, between Lester 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:42.040 Young and his influence on Alan Ginsberg. Well, you know, 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:48.240 Carolac was the real jazz aficionado of the early beats, 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.719 and he um, of course, who was turned on by 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.040 Lester Young. You know, he started going to the jazz 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.320 clubs and he's the first one to write about jazz 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:02.240 of of those guys. And you know, he and Allen 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.600 were very close and they would listen to the music together, 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.600 and Caro Wac was the first one who became imbued 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.720 with this notion of writing the same way that the 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:19.399 jazz musicians played. He would listen to Charlie Parker and 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:22.680 he would listen to Lester young, and one of the 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.920 things that he really began to see was that they 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:30.560 played in these long lines, these kind of like long 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:36.159 unbroken lines in which one idea would like initiate like 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:41.080 unleash another idea, and then another idea and then another idea, 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:47.280 in this kind of endless progression of unfolding of like 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:51.560 ideas and melodies and with and there would be breaks, 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:54.960 and then the breaks would be used creatively to kind 0:22:55.000 --> 0:23:00.399 of contextualize something else. And you know, Carolac would like 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:04.800 get stoned and he would listen to the jazz and 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:09.080 then he would like to think about how he could, um, 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.520 you know, right in the same way. So some of 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:18.080 his earliest attempts of writing um were um you know, 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:23.600 like long improvisations. Really, I mean his whole creation of 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:27.840 the manuscript for On the Road, for example, which he 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:31.879 did like putting this giant roll of paper and putting 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:35.120 it in a typewriter and just sitting down and like 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:41.080 literally like twenty three days straight just like churning out 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:46.439 this manuscript which became this like incredible novel called On 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:52.320 the Road. Alan in his development in his poetics, was 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:56.679 always looking at Caro Wac and going wow, wow, Wow, 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:58.960 I wonder if I can do that with my poetry. 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:02.919 And when he sat down, Uh, he was living in 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:06.680 North Beach at the time, in San Francisco, and he, 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:11.080 you know, he sat down to write how. Carol wac 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:13.720 had been living in Mexico at that time and he 0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:18.320 had created this this long poem called Mexico City Blues 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:23.040 and he sent it to Alan, and Alan, you know, 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:30.200 started writing How, trying to do it along that kind 0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:36.119 of like long saxophone line, and that's the entire first 0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:41.000 movement of How is written exactly. It was almost like 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:45.240 he was trying to channel Lester young Um, like sitting 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:48.960 down and blowing. So the whole first movement of How 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:52.960 is like you know, him just like blowing on a saxophone. Really, 0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:57.040 you know, this brings us to the next great revolutionary 0:24:57.080 --> 0:25:02.200 and jazz, Charlie Parker and be back Jazz and Charlie 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:05.440 Parker as somebody who's using drugs from the time he's 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:11.120 in his young teens, Charlie Parker, a man of fantastic appetites, 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:14.560 Charlie Parker who just keeps using more and more drugs 0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:17.119 and keeps getting more and more creative in his music 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:21.200 until a breaking point comes, so, I mean a lot 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:24.320 of your book obviously, the title is Bebop Apocalypse Charlie 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:28.000 Parker was Mr Bibop. Tell us about Charlie Parker and 0:25:28.359 --> 0:25:34.240 about the relationship between drugs and his music. Well, he 0:25:34.320 --> 0:25:39.119 was unique because he was so um musically driven and 0:25:39.200 --> 0:25:43.320 ambitious from a very young age, and also from a 0:25:43.440 --> 0:25:46.480 very young age he was just as driven to use 0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:49.320 and abuse pretty much everything he could get his hands on. 0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:54.679 And he was a genius musician, you know, addicted for 0:25:54.720 --> 0:25:59.040 the first time as a teenager, even before he left 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:02.359 Kansas City to you know, hop the freight train that 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:05.439 would bring him to Chicago and then eventually to New 0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:10.280 York and then eventually to fame. We talked extensively about 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:15.359 Louis Armstrong. Louis Armstrong, lifelong user of marijuana, who set 0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:21.159 pretty strong boundaries about things that he would do and 0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:25.000 things that he wouldn't do. He, for example, did not 0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:29.240 like alcohol, and he wouldn't like cross that boundary into 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:33.199 the use of alcohol. He really really did not like 0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:37.360 hard drugs and he never crossed that boundary into hard drugs. 0:26:39.119 --> 0:26:43.920 Charlie Parker Bird, as he would of course become famously known, 0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:49.760 He not only had no boundaries about music, but he 0:26:49.840 --> 0:26:54.800 had no boundary about his use of substances. Not only 0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:58.920 would he use everything, but he would make an ethos 0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:04.920 of it. And he was so brilliant musically that that 0:27:05.320 --> 0:27:12.760 boundaryless ethos about his substances became inextricable from his you know, 0:27:12.960 --> 0:27:19.480 just boundary breaking musicianship and genius. So that's what set 0:27:19.560 --> 0:27:23.119 those two geniuses apart from each other in terms of 0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:29.760 their relationship to substances. Um. That's the best way I 0:27:29.800 --> 0:27:33.040 could describe it. Yeah, you know, at one point you 0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:36.560 describe there's a song, um, and let's hear a clip 0:27:36.600 --> 0:27:51.160 from it, Loverman. This song became part of the legend 0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:54.600 of his genius of Charlie Parker say something about Loverman. 0:27:55.200 --> 0:27:58.400 You know, it's it's so interesting because he became an 0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:04.000 addict as a teenager, and then when he got really 0:28:04.080 --> 0:28:08.359 musically ambitious, he decided that he was going to get clean. 0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:11.359 So when he jumped that freight trade out of the 0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:14.840 Kansas City freight yard and you know, to to begin 0:28:14.960 --> 0:28:20.560 his musical Hobysey Um, he kind of understood that he 0:28:20.840 --> 0:28:24.640 needed all of his discipline and all of his energy 0:28:24.680 --> 0:28:27.800