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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, This is George from the United States of Kennedy.

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Speaker 1: Due to some scheduling difficulties with the holiday season, we

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Speaker 1: don't have a new episode this week. Instead, we are

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Speaker 1: re releasing an early fan favorite, our episode about Carolyn

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Speaker 1: Besset Kennedy with special guests Glennis McNichol. Just the note

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Speaker 1: that this episode was recorded back when United States of

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Speaker 1: Kennedy was co hosted by Lyra Smith. This is one

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Speaker 1: of our favorite early episodes. We chat about Carolyn's it

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Speaker 1: girl status in nineties New York, her reputation as a

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Speaker 1: fashion icon, and how she navigated the media environment at

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Speaker 1: the time after she was thrust into the spotlight. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back with new episodes starting next week.

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Speaker 2: See then, what's the first thing you think of when

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Speaker 2: I say Carolynsett Kennedy.

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Speaker 3: This is twelve ten News. But I do remember reading

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Speaker 3: that their relationship was such that she was in constant

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Speaker 3: communication with him and would call his office because you know,

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Speaker 3: I guess this was before texting and emails and things.

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Speaker 4: So she would.

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Speaker 3: Call constantly, little check.

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Speaker 5: Ins, hey how are you, and even things like sharing

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Speaker 5: what she had for lunch, you know, like the early

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Speaker 5: version of sending seventy two texts in a row. I

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Speaker 5: think that she was a normal person who got in

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Speaker 5: over her head. I think about my own relationship, and

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Speaker 5: I have been known to text my husband really dumb

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Speaker 5: things over and over again.

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Speaker 3: And thank god there is not an assistant who's having

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Speaker 3: to intercept this communication.

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Speaker 1: I'm George Severies, I'm Lyars Smith, and this is United

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Speaker 1: States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with

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Speaker 1: the Kennedy dynasty. Each week we go into one as

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Speaker 1: of the Kennedy story, and today we're talking about Carolyn

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Speaker 1: Bissett Kennedy. So Carolyn was JFK. Junior's wife of almost

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Speaker 1: three years until they both died tragically in a plane

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Speaker 1: crash in nineteen ninety nine. And JFK Jor was, of

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Speaker 1: course JFK and Jackie's only son. So let's start at

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Speaker 1: the beginning, Lyra, who was Carolyn?

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Speaker 2: Well, what is so wild about Carolyn is that we

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Speaker 2: really don't know which version of her is the truth.

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Speaker 2: When she started dating JFK. Junior, she was not a celebrity,

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Speaker 2: and overnight she became this huge star of the tabloids,

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Speaker 2: and that coverage was of course like pretty nasty usually

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Speaker 2: and only interested in the most like salacious and misogynistic takes.

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Speaker 4: And JFK.

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Speaker 1: Junior had already dated like Sarah, Jessica Parker, Daryl, Hannah Madonna.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she was in this like long lineage of

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Speaker 1: women that the tabloids became obsessed with because they were

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Speaker 1: dating JFK. Junior. Of course, the difference being all those

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Speaker 1: other women were already celebrities and already famous and had

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Speaker 1: like maybe a team around them, had some sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, experience with fame that she did not. So

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Speaker 1: there's Carolyn, She's the new girlfriend. And then meanwhile, JFK.

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Speaker 1: Junior was America's prince and people's sexiest man alive, and

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Speaker 1: he was sort of portrayed as like a dumb hunk

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Speaker 1: that Carolyn was taking advantage of. And listen, yes, he

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Speaker 1: did famously fail the bar exam twice, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think this media narrative was exactly substantiated. So on the

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Speaker 1: one hand, Carolyn is portrayed as this villain, as this

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Speaker 1: unhinged party girl in the tabloids. But then on the

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Speaker 1: flip side, everything that was written about her after her death,

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Speaker 1: especially the biographies that were written about her kind of

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Speaker 1: go too far in the opposite direction. They're like overly

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Speaker 1: protective of her image. They try to overcorrect, and they

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Speaker 1: paint her as this perfect woman that was caught in

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Speaker 1: circumstances that were outside her control? Or are they paint

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Speaker 1: her as this like fashion icon in the world's most

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Speaker 1: fashionable angel?

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Speaker 2: And people to this day are still free to apply

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Speaker 2: their assumptions onto her because Carolyn never gave a single interview.

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Speaker 2: She was very private, and there are only two clips

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Speaker 2: of her voice that exist online, which is wild. Here's

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Speaker 2: the first one. At the Glamourous Fire and Ice Ball

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Speaker 2: in Hollywood, she went with cousins in law Maria and

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Speaker 2: Bobby Schweiver and told et she enjoyed herself.

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Speaker 4: It was very exciting, wonderful evening.

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Speaker 1: What was your highlight wasilight?

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Speaker 4: For the entire evening was spectacular.

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Speaker 1: Was no highlight.

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Speaker 2: Here's the second one.

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Speaker 4: I think it's sot of fabulous. I hope they're all

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Speaker 4: sitting with me.

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Speaker 1: So that's it. That's all we have of Carolyn, and

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Speaker 1: her actual words are almost beside the point here because

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Speaker 1: there are so many enduring images of her that defined

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Speaker 1: who she was to the American public. I honestly think

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Speaker 1: no matter how much she spoke, she would not be

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Speaker 1: able to escape the images that are burned into Americans' heads.

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Speaker 1: So we have Carolyn fighting with JFK. Junior in Washington Square.

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Speaker 2: Park, which is rough. Have you looked at it recently?

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Speaker 1: I had not looked at it until we started doing

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Speaker 1: research for this episode, and it is I mean, there

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Speaker 1: is something very kind of vintage tabloid video about it.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's it's hard to be shocked by something nowadays,

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Speaker 1: but you know, you think people had a lower tolerance

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Speaker 1: for drama back then, but you'd be wrong.

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Speaker 2: Well it's just like, yeah, it's like tabloid, but it's

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Speaker 2: also like almost like cinematic, Like he rips the fring

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Speaker 2: off of her finger, and then the way she's like

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Speaker 2: pushing on him is like so inappropriate. Like when it

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Speaker 2: first starts, you're kind of like, oh, yeah, that's so embarrassing,

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Speaker 2: Like I've definitely been in a fight with a significant

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Speaker 2: other and it's been like an embarrassing place and you

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Speaker 2: know you're hoping nobody notices.

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Speaker 4: But then it just keeps going.

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Speaker 1: It does almost seem staged. It seems like, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you saw a video like that. Now you would

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Speaker 1: be saying those celebrities are just trying to get attention.

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Speaker 2: That's true. It's very Heidi and Spencer looking.

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Speaker 1: So situate ourselves in space and time. We are talking

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Speaker 1: like mid to late nineties New York City. Jfkid Junior is,

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Speaker 1: like we said, the most eligible bachelor in New York.

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Speaker 1: He's this hot, well dressed guy. He's dating all these celebrities,

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Speaker 1: He's living in Tribeca, he's founding a magazine. He is

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Speaker 1: like the coolest bachelor out there. And he also is

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Speaker 1: not surrounded by security people. He is constantly biking throughout

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Speaker 1: the city. He's almost like a nineties version of Prince Charming.

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Speaker 2: And then Carolyn was one of these people that was

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Speaker 2: famous without social media, but she kind of inhabited the

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Speaker 2: space of an influencer anyway, the way that she was

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Speaker 2: on the weekly, you know, grocery store tabloid magazines, and

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Speaker 2: she was kind of a representative of what this like gorgeous,

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Speaker 2: chic Manhattan woman looked like in nineties New York.

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Speaker 1: Which is actually irerily similar to what any wanna be

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Speaker 1: sheik New York women have looked like over the last

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Speaker 1: few years, which is why The New York Times actually

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Speaker 1: called her a quote ghost influencer because of her outsize

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Speaker 1: impact on fashion and culture. So to help us make

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Speaker 1: sense of Carolyn's life and legacy today, we're talking to

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Speaker 1: journalists and writer Glennis McNicol. Glennis's latest memoir is called

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Speaker 1: I'm Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself, and she's written about culture, politics,

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Speaker 1: and fashion for The New York Times, New York Magazine,

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Speaker 1: Rolling Stone, in a bunch of other places. But for

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Speaker 1: our purposes, the main reason we wanted to talk to

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Speaker 1: her is because of a Town and Country article she

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Speaker 1: wrote in twenty sixteen called who was Carolyn Bessett Kennedy?

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Speaker 1: The woman who married John F. Kennedy Junior? Remains a

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Speaker 1: one woman fashion cult and an enigma. All right, So Glennis,

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Speaker 1: you are here to talk to us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about JFK. Junior and Carolyn Bissett. JFK Junior and Carolyn

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Speaker 1: Bessett as media figures, as tabloid fixtures, as pop culture figures,

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Speaker 1: as like you know, sort of ghost influencers. As Vanessa

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Speaker 1: Friedman called Carolyn in the pages of The New York Times.

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Speaker 1: Good phrase, it really is. And so I want before

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Speaker 1: we get really into it. I want to know. You know,

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Speaker 1: you write about a very wide variety of topics. You've

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Speaker 1: written to memoirs, you have written stuff for the Times,

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Speaker 1: You've written about culture, you've written about fashion. But Carolyn

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Speaker 1: is someone that you sort of have returned to many

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Speaker 1: times in your career, and I wonder what you think that,

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Speaker 1: why you think that is, What do you think what

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Speaker 1: draws you to her?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So I've written about a lot of topics, and

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Speaker 6: then in twenty sixteen, I did a thing about Carolyn

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Speaker 6: Bassett Kennedy, which is my recollection. Was went extremely viral,

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Speaker 6: and I think was sort of one of the first

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Speaker 6: pieces to look at her as a standalone figure, and

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Speaker 6: you know what she represented and also what her life

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Speaker 6: was like when she was alive, and I lived in

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Speaker 6: New York when they were married. You I arrived in

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Speaker 6: New York in the late nineties, shortly after they were married.

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Speaker 6: And it's hard to overstate the degree to which she

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Speaker 6: captivated everyone's attention. I mean, I really think you could

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Speaker 6: walk around New York and figure out everyone who was

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Speaker 6: alive here at the time by like the absence of

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Speaker 6: their eyebrows, because everyone lost their eyebrows within like a

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Speaker 6: year of that wedding. You know, she was just so

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Speaker 6: all consuming and I think, you know, it's been notable

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Speaker 6: to me, like when we talk about herself, and maybe

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Speaker 6: I'm jumping ahead, but I think it's hard to overstate

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Speaker 6: now how shocking she was, how shocking her appearance was.

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Speaker 6: In nineteen ninety six, I have the clearest memory of

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Speaker 6: you know, the people who lived in New York that

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Speaker 6: this is pre the internet.

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Speaker 4: You know, New York was a much more.

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Speaker 6: Sort of secular, sealed place separate from America. So I

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Speaker 6: think there was people in the fashion industry who obviously

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Speaker 6: knew who she was because she was head of public

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Speaker 6: relations for Calvin Klein, and there was people in sort

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Speaker 6: of the downtown set of New York canoe she was.

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Speaker 6: But nationally and globally, no one had any idea who

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Speaker 6: she was. So they secretly get married on the island,

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Speaker 6: you know, off the Georgian coast, and that photo on

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Speaker 6: the cover of every newspaper the next day of her

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Speaker 6: in the wedding dress and him kissing her hand was

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Speaker 6: like a literal stop the press's moment.

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Speaker 4: No one had seen anything that looked like her.

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Speaker 6: She was so new, Like I remember watching a Sunday show,

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Speaker 6: the Sunday Political Shows, which in the nineties was like

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Speaker 6: David Brinkley with like Kochie Roberts and Sam Donaldson, you know,

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Speaker 6: and George will and they stopped the show to announce

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Speaker 6: the wedding. Is how sort of like electrifying it was.

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Speaker 6: And then you know, two weeks later, she appears on

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Speaker 6: the doorstep in Tribeca of their apartment, sort of like JFK.

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Speaker 6: Junior does that very I think hopeful introduction of like,

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Speaker 6: here's my wife, please leave her alone, which of course

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Speaker 6: you'll think ludicrous.

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Speaker 1: So I just asked any you know, Bobacy and that

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Speaker 1: the room you can give her, she makes as a

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Speaker 1: justment sometimes you don't really appreciate.

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Speaker 6: And they step outside and she had on those knee

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Speaker 6: high product boots and that tan Pradat skirt and that

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Speaker 6: v neck and now we look at it and it

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Speaker 6: looks like like a chic New York woman who maybe

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Speaker 6: works in you know, Vogue magazine or whatever. At the time,

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Speaker 6: it looked like she derived from Mars. Like you just

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Speaker 6: it looked like nothing the world had seen unless you

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Speaker 6: were a person who really paid attention to style and fashion,

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Speaker 6: and in those days when you did.

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Speaker 4: You know, you're still getting.

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Speaker 6: The runway reports, you know, four months later, and maybe

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Speaker 6: you're watching fashion television, you know, shout out to Jeanie

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Speaker 6: Becker forever, but like you're getting such a delayed version

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Speaker 6: of it.

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Speaker 4: And it's such a niche thing that to have something

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Speaker 4: like that go global.

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Speaker 6: Was just stunning, you know, and and it rearranged the

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Speaker 6: entire wedding industry.

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Speaker 4: I remember reviving in New York and immediately buying knee

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Speaker 4: high boots.

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Speaker 6: Like it was just sort of like and I could

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Speaker 6: not look less like Carolyn was that Like I was

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Speaker 6: just like you're talking about a tall, thin weven with

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Speaker 6: like straight whiteline, you know, buttery chunks, the famous fright.

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Speaker 6: You can always tell when someone lived in New York

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Speaker 6: at the time too, because they you say buttery chunks.

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Speaker 6: It is like a password, you know, it's like a

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Speaker 6: code word for how our hair was described. But like

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Speaker 6: you saw all these women who were like trying to

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Speaker 6: embody this image of this woman who they looked nothing,

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Speaker 6: nothing like, and it was just sort of just amazing

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Speaker 6: and amazingly original. And what's so interesting to me about

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Speaker 6: the originality of it is how it it's now like

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Speaker 6: a timeless style.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: Now it just looks.

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Speaker 6: Like like you know, quiet luxury, or in those days

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Speaker 6: it was called minimalism. But at the time it would

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Speaker 6: just felt like an electric like you've been hit by lightning.

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Speaker 4: Honestly, what were people used to seeing? Like what was

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Speaker 4: like street style before? Interesting unless you to New York.

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Speaker 4: I mean what your street saw.

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Speaker 6: It was like dependent on the neighborhood you lived in,

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Speaker 6: because of course you're getting this broadcast like everything is

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Speaker 6: so delayed. You're dependent on magazines and if you're outside

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Speaker 6: sort of the New York indie magazine scene, you know

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Speaker 6: you're looking to Vogue. Was you know you wrought I

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Speaker 6: have entire issues of Vogue committed to memory. You'd run

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Speaker 6: to the magazine store, you'd get it in the mail,

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Speaker 6: and it would be.

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Speaker 4: The thing you would have for a month.

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Speaker 6: And I remember when w magazine launched or relaunched sort

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Speaker 6: of in the mid nineties with that bigger format, and

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Speaker 6: it looked it was so interesting because it had sort

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Speaker 6: of a different vibe and it felt edgier. And Kate Moss,

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Speaker 6: of course, was you know, the edgy model at the time,

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Speaker 6: and a lot of it was coming through music videos,

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Speaker 6: so you're looking at sort of the you know, the

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Speaker 6: grunge era of the early nineties, which was fun and.

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Speaker 4: Very you know, like win Ona Rider and you know.

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Speaker 6: Ethan Hawk Whin and not say anything, what was their

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Speaker 6: famous reality reality bites. But so this comes along and

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Speaker 6: it's like well, and then of course she's on the

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Speaker 6: arm of JFK. Junior, who even if you're not a Kennedy,

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Speaker 6: you know, I'm Canadian and so I was this was

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Speaker 6: all coming to me and university in Vancouver, you know,

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Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety six, and like you have a vague

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Speaker 6: awareness of what the Kennedys mean, and he had launched

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Speaker 6: George magazine, you know, a year earlier, but you don't

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Speaker 6: really understand the vernacular of all this because we did

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Speaker 6: not have access to information in the same way. So

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Speaker 6: you just start responding to all this much differently, and

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Speaker 6: like parsing little phrases in Vogue, like the early the

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Speaker 6: opening pages of Vogue were sort of, I guess, an

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Speaker 6: early version of street style, but they were really peopled

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Speaker 6: by like Upper east Side social lights. Like my knowledge

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Speaker 6: of Upper east Side social lights in nineteen ninety six

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Speaker 6: is bizarrely comprehensive because they still wielded power in a

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Speaker 6: way that they absolutely do not know, and so that

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Speaker 6: I think because of that, she sort of blasted onto

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Speaker 6: the scene in the very clean image. It's interesting to

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Speaker 6: me that these three women that I think dominated the

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Speaker 6: second half of the nineties were all New York based

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Speaker 6: and all came through Calvin Klein to some degree. Right,

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Speaker 6: You've got Kate Moss, who was sort of grungy but

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Speaker 6: was making that shift in the mid nineties. Gwynneth came up,

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Speaker 6: and again, Gwyneth's another person who was much more.

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Speaker 4: People were much more.

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Speaker 6: Aware of within New York because she was in New York,

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Speaker 6: or who went to Spence rob when I lived in

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Speaker 6: Williamsburg in the late nineties, all of these Spence graduates

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Speaker 6: who were sort of rebelling against their family by moving

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Speaker 6: to Brooklyn all had a lot of opinions about Gwyneth

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Speaker 6: because they rubbed shoulders with her at Spence at some time.

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Speaker 6: So you had like this insular world of New York

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Speaker 6: colliding with sort of a global awareness. But I think Carolyn,

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Speaker 6: more than Gwynneth had a very like a strict almost

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Speaker 6: an armor. She shifted, you know, she left Calvin Klein

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Speaker 6: six months before the wedding, quit her job and never

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Speaker 6: appeared in Calvin again.

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Speaker 4: Right like, she shifted and started almost.

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Speaker 6: Exclusively with Yogi and Prada after that, which is a

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Speaker 6: really mature fashion decisions that you weren't seeing. I mean,

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Speaker 6: Gwyneth is you know ten years to our home years

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Speaker 6: younger was much more in sort of like experimenting. But

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Speaker 6: they all came through this, you know, this Calvin Klein

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Speaker 6: machine to some degree. And it's worth remembering that in

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Speaker 6: the mid nineties, Calvin was the most powerful fashion person,

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Speaker 6: you know, not just an America, in the world. And

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Speaker 6: you know those famous white offices, I think they were

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Speaker 6: at sixtieth and I want to say Madison, and he

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Speaker 6: like rumor had it that he had there was like

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Speaker 6: the beautiful floor at Calvin, that everyone had to work

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Speaker 6: on that flora to be beautiful.

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Speaker 4: And like Carolyn was ruling the roost and she was

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Speaker 4: his muse.

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Speaker 6: And so there's all, you know, the insider gossip that

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Speaker 6: you would get you brush up against that wouldn't have

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Speaker 6: made no sense to anyone else, you know, outside the

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Speaker 6: confines of a rather insular world at the time.

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Speaker 1: Sure, the Yogi stuff is so interesting because you sort

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Speaker 1: of you think of her as such an icon of

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Speaker 1: a certain kind of preppiness, and then you realize she's

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Speaker 1: wearing yogi, She's wearing these like avant garde Japanese lately

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Speaker 1: things like on the red carpet of like a gala

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Speaker 1: or something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, which she.

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Speaker 6: Almost never went to, she like, but to your point,

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Speaker 6: just to stick with it with the thread, like when

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Speaker 6: you look at the transition she sort of went even

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Speaker 6: with her hair, like she sort of went through this

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Speaker 6: sort of care free, relaxed image when she was dating JFK. Junior,

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Speaker 6: and almost immediately overnight the dressing becomes very strict and

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Speaker 6: it's I almost I liken it to like an armor

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Speaker 6: like she was. So it's hard to imagine that, even

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Speaker 6: with preparation, anyone's prepared for the kind of spotlight that

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Speaker 6: she had thrust on her and the cruelty of it.

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Speaker 6: I mean, that famous Newsweek cover story which literally dissected

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Speaker 6: her bit by bit and her appearance and what she done.

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Speaker 6: It was very I mean really think of the nineties

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Speaker 6: as progressive, and it was in comparison to what preceded it,

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Speaker 6: but it's really it's so regressive and just you know,

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Speaker 6: and you it's easier to imagine that she that closed

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Speaker 6: for her became like almost a literal protective shelf because

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Speaker 6: she stops almost showing skin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, that's like a big part of

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Speaker 2: understanding this place and time now is that we have

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Speaker 2: an idea, like we grew up with paparazzi shots being

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Speaker 2: like the norm and having I guess, kind of this

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Speaker 2: like assumption that that's part of the deal. You're you're

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Speaker 2: signing up for this public life, and that means that

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Speaker 2: you have not just less privacy or limited privacy, it

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Speaker 2: means you have absolutely no more privacy. I mean the

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Speaker 2: way that we live today with paparazzi like in trees,

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Speaker 2: using zoom lens to like get actresses tanning in their backyard,

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Speaker 2: like I don't know, it's just there's absolutely nothing. And

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Speaker 2: it reminds me of one of the criticisms or talking

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Speaker 2: points around Harry and Megan is that people would say,

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Speaker 2: didn't you know what you were signing up for? Which

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Speaker 2: it's like not even necessarily fair in that respect because

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Speaker 2: it's you don't know what it's like to join the

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Speaker 2: royal family.

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Speaker 1: But this is our royal family right, and Carolyn was

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Speaker 1: sort of understanding what she quote unquote signed up for

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Speaker 1: in real time. Like one of the in our research,

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Speaker 1: one of the things we were reading about is like

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Speaker 1: how Princess Diana's death was so I mean, it was

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Speaker 1: shocking for everyone, but it was like so shocking for

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Speaker 1: her because she sort of saw her own future as

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Speaker 1: she was like signing up for this completely. We'll be

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Speaker 1: back with more United States of Kennedy after this break,

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Speaker 1: and we're back with United States of Kennedy. I really

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Speaker 1: want to talk more about the fashion stuff, but I

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Speaker 1: want to take a step back a little bit and

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Speaker 1: just talk about, you know, where Carolyn came from. So

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Speaker 1: you know the three girls you mentioned. Gwyneth is Hollywood Royalty,

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Speaker 1: Kate Moss is obviously a supermodel. She's also British, which

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Speaker 1: always carries a short of glamour for an American audience.

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Speaker 1: Carolyn is neither of those things. Like where did Carolyn

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Speaker 1: come from and how did she land in New York?

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Speaker 6: An interesting side note to that, you know, Kate Moss

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Speaker 6: and Carolyn Bassett lived in the same apartment building at

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Speaker 6: the same time in Greenwich Village and when they were

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Speaker 6: when she was dating Michael Bergen, and Kate Moss was

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Speaker 6: dating Johnny Depp, which I always think it's like right

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Speaker 6: next door to Mario Betelli's restaurant whatever it is, down

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Speaker 6: on just beside Washington Square Park. But Carolyn came from

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Speaker 6: her mother divorced her father. I think she was born

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Speaker 6: in White Plains. They moved to Greenwich, Connecticut. Her mom

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Speaker 6: was a school teacher, her stepfather was a doctor. She

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Speaker 6: had two older sisters, one of whom obviously died in

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Speaker 6: the plane crash with them, who were twins, and both

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Speaker 6: her older sisters were incredibly successful in their fields. One

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Speaker 6: is an academic and one was an academic and or

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Speaker 6: a busin this person and the other is an academic.

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Speaker 4: And Carolyn, by all accounts, was you know.

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Speaker 6: The popular girl in school who didn't excel necessarily at academics.

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Speaker 6: Didn't fail at it either by all accounts, but like

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Speaker 6: was not operating at that sort of high level, but

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Speaker 6: excelled at personal skills. Goes to university Boston University majors

401
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Speaker 6: in childcare, which is sort of amusing, but also as

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Speaker 6: a grown up now you look back and you're like,

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Speaker 6: you see a person who's like, I don't know sounding,

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Speaker 6: you know, like that sort of like that thing we

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Speaker 6: might have all experienced. And who gets a job upon

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Speaker 6: graduation at a mall in Boston working for Calvin Klein

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Speaker 6: where she is scouted by Paul Wilmot I think, who

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Speaker 6: was an exec at Calvin Klin at the time, and

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Speaker 6: sort of high tails it. They bring her to Manhattan

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Speaker 6: because they clearly recognize somebody who has bigger fish to fry.

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Speaker 6: And she she's quite young still, right, she was only

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Speaker 6: thirty three when she died, so you'd be backtracked this timeline.

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Speaker 6: She's in her mid twenties, gets brought down to New

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Speaker 6: York installed as a VIP shopper for high end clients,

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Speaker 6: which I mean, I keep going back to this, but

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Speaker 6: at the time this was reported, I highly doubt anyone

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Speaker 6: outside the confines of a very wealthy strata even understood

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Speaker 6: what that meant. Now, of course we all have a

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Speaker 6: different language for this. But like she's waiting on you know,

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Speaker 6: Anette Benning and Diane Sawyer, and in the early articles

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Speaker 6: they would reflect on like you'd walk in and she

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Speaker 6: was a brunette at this time still, you know, she

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Speaker 6: had like long, flowy hair and would wear leggings and

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Speaker 6: a white button down, and everybody would try and want to.

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Speaker 4: Look like her.

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Speaker 6: And she quickly rises up the ranks of Calvin Klein execs,

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Speaker 6: from shopgirl to head of publicity who's running the shows

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Speaker 6: and setting all this up like at lightning speed. It's

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Speaker 6: really extraordinary to think that by the time she's sort

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Speaker 6: of twenty seven years old, and within five years she

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Speaker 6: goes from working at a mall in Boston to being

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Speaker 6: the head of publicity for the most influential and like

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Speaker 6: hip and like cool, like Colvin's so cool at this

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Speaker 6: time and so energy where she's like running these enormous shows,

435
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 6: and that is you know that I think that speaks

436
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 6: to a person who I think we all know, these

437
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,719
Speaker 6: people who were meant to be in New York, right,

438
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 6: Like a person who excels at being a New Yorker

439
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 6: and is you know, by all accounts, you know, quite

440
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 6: well known in the downtown scene, is dating Michael Bergan,

441
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 6: who was the big supermodel. You know, there's that famous

442
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 6: Candice Bushnel invites Michael Bergen over to her apartment for

443
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 6: one of those early Sex in the City's columns she

444
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 6: does for The New York Observer. And starts, you know,

445
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 6: he's the hottest guy, and you know, insinuates that they

446
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 6: she sleeps with home. If you go back and read

447
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 6: that piece, that's quite I think it's still on the website.

448
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 6: But like so like she's in, she's in the zeitgeist,

449
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 6: and there's I know more has come out recently, but

450
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 6: there was all these.

451
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 4: Varying stories of how her and JFK.

452
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 6: Junior met, Like he came in to go shopping, or

453
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 6: they met in Central Park and he was still dating

454
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 6: Daryl Hannah at the time, and then they dated a

455
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 6: bit and then they broke up. You know, like there

456
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 6: was a sort of you know, back and forth.

457
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 1: With it, and her and Daryl Hannah overlap quite a bit.

458
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 4: It was like, yes, because it was the first photo

459
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 4: of her and JFK Junior.

460
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 6: They're at the like nineteen ninety two marathons, sitting on

461
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 6: a sidewalk, and then cut to his you know, then Jackie,

462
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 6: I think, is diagnosed and he goes back to Darryl.

463
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 6: Who knows how many people JF I mean, he's JFK Junior.

464
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 6: I don't think he was a player necessarily, but it's

465
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 6: clearly not lacking for a lot of attention, so he

466
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 6: goes back to Daryl Hannah, and then I think it

467
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 6: gets a little cloudy after that, Like who's to say

468
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 6: that actually happens. But clearly he's compelled by her, right,

469
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 6: like she's not necessarily chasing him in a way that

470
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 6: I imagine had to have been very attractive for a

471
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 6: person who is used to being chased. And I think too,

472
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 6: maybe this is common knowledge, but like JFK. Junior was

473
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 6: very much, very accessible on the streets of New York.

474
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 6: He rollerbladed or rode his bike everywhere. They notably, I mean,

475
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 6: for all the struggles she had after the marriage with attention,

476
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 6: they never left that Tribeca apartment which didn't have a doorman,

477
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 6: you know, like he had really rejected that Upper East

478
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 6: Side upbringing. And I might think I might have written

479
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 6: this somewhere, But when I was a waitress and grown

480
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 6: to village, the chef who ran the kitchen, you stop

481
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 6: about how nice JFK. Junior was. He would come into

482
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 6: the restaurant for like just stand at the bar and

483
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 6: have a beer and like talk up the basketball game.

484
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 6: Like he was very much tried to insinuate himself into

485
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 6: the day to day of New York and even after

486
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 6: they were married, she would show up to dinner, you know,

487
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 6: dressed to the nine, stepping out of a cab, and

488
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 6: he would show up on his bike, you know, with

489
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 6: like you know, his bikelock wrapped across his suit. So

490
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 6: you know, he was very New Yorkers really loved him.

491
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 6: And how they eventually committed to one another. I think

492
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 6: he was under enormous pressure at that. It's funny to

493
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 6: think of now because we think of age differently, but

494
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 6: he was thirty or when they started dating or thirty one,

495
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 6: it's like, why aren't you married, Jan aren't you a

496
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 6: serious person?

497
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 4: And you know that sort of thing.

498
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 6: But I think from when they finally got together, she

499
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 6: moved in pretty quickly, but she and they were engaged

500
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 6: somewhat quickly. I think that timeline is you know, who

501
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 6: knows what the specifics are.

502
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: That trajectory is so wild. I feel like if it

503
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: was in a movie, you wouldn't believe that, Like it

504
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: just couldn't be, Like it would take you out of it,

505
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: and it is like Also, we learned that in her

506
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 2: high school superlatives, they invented a new category for her

507
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 2: that was the ultimate beautiful person.

508
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 4: Right, which is so interesting to me too.

509
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 6: If you look back at those photos, she doesn't necessarily

510
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 6: she looks like a suburban Catholic school girl with long hair, right,

511
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 6: she doesn't stop you dead in your tracks. And so

512
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 6: I think when you hear superlatives attached to her, even

513
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 6: early on, you recognize so much of what was compelling

514
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 6: about her was in person and her personality and how

515
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 6: she made people feel in real life that sometimes was

516
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 6: not conveyed through the camera. And of course she never

517
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 6: gave an interview, only like four seconds of her voice.

518
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 4: Ever on records.

519
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 6: So to extrapolate from those responses to her, I think

520
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 6: in it begins to make more sense why he had

521
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 6: such a reaction to her, and like why that might

522
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 6: be so attractive to him to have such an a

523
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 6: live person, as a person who was used to being

524
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 6: the subject of so much attention and who grew up

525
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 6: you know, I mean, he grew up on ten forty

526
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 6: fifth Avenue for the most part, right, Like, I think

527
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 6: that you can really see like attaching onto the lifeblood

528
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 6: of what she clearly brought, because you don't succeed at

529
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 6: Calvin or fashion in those days without having you know,

530
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 6: an enormous ability to be personable and deal with you know, complicated,

531
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 6: high profile people, like.

532
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 4: Really thinking that through.

533
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 6: I think I don't think she ever gets enough credit

534
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 6: for the success that she achieved before she became you know,

535
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 6: his wife.

536
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: Just think to think about how good she had to

537
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: be and what she did.

538
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 6: And in that New York, right in that highly charged

539
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,959
Speaker 6: New York environment where people wielded so much power and

540
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 6: a not a lot of there wasn't a lot of accountability, right,

541
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 6: like to really operate in those in that world.

542
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: I also want to talk a little bit about the

543
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: kind of like media portrayal of Carolyn. I mean, one

544
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: of the passages in your Town and Country article was

545
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: just that. I mean it says you say she was

546
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: quote forced into the multitude of unforgiving tropes for public women,

547
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: the scheming girlfriend, the coked up vixen, the miserable spouse.

548
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: And it's funny. I was the I was reading what

549
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: you wrote now a few years later and I feel

550
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: like it was I don't know if you if this

551
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: was conscious or not, but it was during this time

552
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: you wrote it, during this time when there was a

553
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: real appetite for reevaluating like women in the nineties and

554
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: how they were treated by the press. It was very like,

555
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: how did we treat Monica Lewinski, How did we treat

556
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: Princess Diana? How did we treat you know whoever? Else?

557
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: And I was wondering if you could talk a little

558
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,239
Speaker 1: bit more about like the kind of media archetype did

559
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: she fit into.

560
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 6: Sure, Yeah, that time when I wrote it, you know Hillary,

561
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 6: I remember the date of publication, but it was when

562
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 6: Hillary was running against Trump, and I think we were

563
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 6: having a real cultural you know, for lack of a

564
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 6: better phrase, come to Jesus moment about how so many

565
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 6: women had been put through the grinder Hillary included. On

566
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 6: the one hand, Carolyn was introduced to many people because

567
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 6: her and JFK.

568
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 4: Junior had a huge fight in Washington Square Park.

569
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 6: I believe where it got like they were pushing each

570
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 6: other and he ripped the ring off her finger and

571
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 6: like it looked physical, but physical, like more physical on

572
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 6: her part than on his. And to your earlier point

573
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 6: about sort of tabloid press, the mid nineties was the

574
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 6: beginnings of that truly invasive tabloid press, and they got caught.

575
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 6: You know, I think George Rush said, I don't remember

576
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 6: what they got for that video, but it was in

577
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 6: the hundreds of thousands of dollars in the mid nineties,

578
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 6: and Inside Edition ran it.

579
00:29:58,600 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 4: And so to.

580
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 6: Make that to emerge into a public consciousness in that manner,

581
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 6: I think was something she probably struggled to overcome. In

582
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 6: addition to that, it's I think necessary to recall that

583
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 6: the whole world.

584
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 4: Had known had been introduced to John F.

585
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 6: Kennedy Junior as the little boy salutes his father at

586
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 6: the assassination, and that moment was so like, we are

587
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 6: having sort of similar reactions to Harry and William in

588
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 6: terms of the funeral procession, right Like you feel a

589
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 6: protective nature over them.

590
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 4: And so it's like she emerged into a world with.

591
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 6: Like a global mother in law, right Like, it's like

592
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 6: everybody has an opinion. And then, in addition to that,

593
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 6: I think because she never gave an interview, which you

594
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 6: sort of understand as a way to maintain control, she

595
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 6: sort of is, you know, the Garbo ask in a

596
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 6: way that she then becomes a blank slate for culture

597
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 6: to put assumptions onto. And where narratives of women are concerned,

598
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 6: we have still fairly narrow ones that you can see

599
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 6: playing out still, you know, and you can see people embodying.

600
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 6: So she is the you know, the caddie angry girlfriend

601
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 6: in the video. She then becomes the is she good

602
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 6: enough to marry JFK.

603
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 4: Junior?

604
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 6: Let's take her apart piece by piece, and by the way,

605
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 6: she's not ingratiating herself to the world in any way

606
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 6: that makes the world sympathetic. She comes out of a

607
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 6: Manhattan fashion world that is both appealing and mystifying, but

608
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 6: to the so called middle of the country, which I

609
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 6: think often gets a bad rap, is like elite and inaccessible.

610
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 4: And you combine all these things with this.

611
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 6: Very carefully curated appearance, and you don't have someone who

612
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 6: is projecting an image that make people want to be

613
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 6: protective or friends with her, or have warm feelings towards

614
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 6: or you've both taken the sort of the image of JFK. Junior,

615
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 6: of everyone's prince charming attached to a woman who has

616
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 6: no interest in making things easier for you.

617
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 4: And it's like the comments.

618
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 6: It was so interesting to me after the plane crash

619
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 6: that these articles suddenly emerged about, like these sort of

620
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 6: nice articles about current They weren't even that nice at

621
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 6: the time either, but there was sort of these sympathetic

622
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 6: articles and I was like, wow, it takes this violent

623
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 6: end to her life for anyone to have something nice.

624
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 6: And you know, I don't know how many close female

625
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 6: friends she had, but everybody around them clammed up immediately, Like,

626
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 6: I think it speaks to both of them that no one,

627
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 6: the degree of silence around them by anyone who knew

628
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 6: them personally lasted nearly twenty five years, which I think

629
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 6: doesn't it's not out of fear, but I think there

630
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 6: was a in the people in their lives did feel

631
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 6: protective about both of them. So when you offer people

632
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 6: an outline of a woman and say, you know, fill

633
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 6: this up with whatever you think applies. You know, we

634
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 6: have very familiar tropes that we see out play out

635
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 6: over reality television constantly, right, Like she's sort of a

636
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 6: reality te television in real life.

637
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 4: And Diana was the same way.

638
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 6: And I think Diana lived longer and began to wield

639
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 6: a lot of power from her position, using some of

640
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 6: those tropes to her advantage. But of course, Carolyn and

641
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 6: John were only married for a thousand days, you know,

642
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 6: like she barely had time as much pr experience as

643
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 6: she brought to that role. She barely had time to

644
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 6: sort of own it or find her way around it

645
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 6: before it was over.

646
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: You can't win in that position, and it does seem

647
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: like she knew that well.

648
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 6: Woman has ever won in that position, Like when we

649
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 6: look at all famous women, Jackie was loathed, you know,

650
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 6: and she.

651
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 4: Was criticized during the marriage to the President.

652
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 6: She was loathed obviously during the Onnasas marriage to a degree.

653
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 6: You know, I think with everything controversial, and you can

654
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 6: expand this, extrapolate this out to many more.

655
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 4: Figures of Muhammad Ali.

656
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,479
Speaker 6: You can distrapolated out to buildings like we have such

657
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 6: a nostalgia for the World Trade Center. People hated the

658
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 6: world to the Twin Towers when they were built. Like

659
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,959
Speaker 6: it's just the key to getting people's love is just

660
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 6: to survive for a long period of time until they

661
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 6: can't get rid of you and suddenly decide they like you.

662
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 6: And she was so briefly here and clearly was not

663
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 6: a personality who was interested in making things easy for

664
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 6: the world. And good on her, but I mean, I

665
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 6: think it.

666
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 4: Made things much more difficult. And you know, JFK.

667
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 6: Junior seemed like a reasonably nice person, but he was

668
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 6: also a person of enormous privilege who you know, lived

669
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 6: in this world his whole life. And I don't know

670
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 6: how much family support she received around this experience, because

671
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 6: you're still coming at a time where it was like fit,

672
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 6: you know, march to the drum. I think similar to

673
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 6: probably what Diana experienced with the royal family, in a

674
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 6: slightly different way, probably, but overwhelmingly so.

675
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you mentioned Jackie as another woman who

676
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: sort of was both built up and torn down by

677
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: the press. I mean she was also despite all the criticism,

678
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: was a real international media star. Like I've talked about

679
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: this with Lira a lot, but my family is Greek,

680
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 1: and during the onasas Era, like everyone in my family

681
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: talks about how big of a deal it was that

682
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: Jackie Oh was in Greece and that she was like

683
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: she like at some point, you know, you know, would

684
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: say positive things about Greece and positive things about the history,

685
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: and it was such an honor that she was in

686
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 1: the country. Whatever. But the relationship between Jackie and Carolyn

687
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: is interesting because well, first of all, there was none

688
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: they famously never met, but also there was this enduring

689
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: idea that part of what Drew JFK Junior to Carolyn

690
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: was her similarities with his mother, like her being this

691
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: like strong willed woman and you know, independent and all

692
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: this stuff. But at the same time, she the rumor

693
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: was that she disapproved of the relationship. So what is

694
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: your like conception of the relationship between the two.

695
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 4: Did Jack grm an opinion about Carolyn is set? I've

696
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 4: I struggle.

697
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 6: We know that Jackie was not, you know, over the

698
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 6: moon about the Daryl Hannah relationship, because as much as

699
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 6: jack John wanted to be an actor, Jackie was like,

700
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 6: you know, absolutely not, this is not the direction this

701
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 6: is going. I mean, I do think everyone has agency

702
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 6: over their lives, but I do think like on the

703
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 6: grand scope of how Kennedy' children have turned out, John

704
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 6: and Caroline Kennedy both turned out pretty well, and that

705
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 6: speaks to sort of Jackie's you know, resolve in their upbringing.

706
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 6: I would be highly skeptical if Jackie had any opinion

707
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 6: about Carolyn Besset. I think he was still with Darryl

708
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 6: for all intense purposes. While Jackie was dying. She was

709
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 6: diagnosed and died very quickly. I think it was like

710
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 6: six months from the diagnosis to her.

711
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 4: Death, So I don't know.

712
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 6: I think those are Jackie herself was such an enormous figure.

713
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 6: I think those narratives are easy for people to put

714
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 6: on in hindsight or even at the time as just

715
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 6: like easy narratives. But I would be skeptical if there

716
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 6: was any relationship. I think probably the fact she wasn't

717
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 6: a famous person and had a real job would have

718
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 6: been very appealing. And I imagine Carolyn the Set probably

719
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 6: suffered for not having Jackie around as a sort of

720
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 6: guide or like an entree and that Lee Radswell or

721
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 6: protector exactly or even just like opening the door to

722
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 6: that Upper east Side society. And I think, you know,

723
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 6: Lee Radsweld did do that to some degree or tried to.

724
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 6: But I think sometimes, you know that book that came

725
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 6: out about Carolyn des Set last year, like The Happily

726
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,479
Speaker 6: Ever After Whatever's called. I always think that we don't

727
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 6: do justice to women when we take away that they

728
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 6: might be like deeply complicated and sometimes not very likable, right,

729
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 6: Like who's to say to be the person who takes

730
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 6: themselves from you know, the suburbs of Greenwich to the

731
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 6: upper echelon of Calvin Klyde and Mary's John F. K.

732
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 4: Junior.

733
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 6: Who's to say the decisions you're making or like the

734
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 6: power You're clearly a person attracted to power, who is

735
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 6: making powerful decisions. And you know, manipulative gets such a

736
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 6: bad rap as a word attached to women. But like

737
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 6: a person who sees who's moving with intention, and like

738
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 6: taking that away from her and making her seem like

739
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 6: this sort of like golden figure, I think, really diminishes

740
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 6: what is so interesting and compelling to her. Maybe her

741
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 6: and Jacu would have hated each other, like who knows?

742
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 4: Who knows?

743
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 6: I think her and Caroline Kennedy did not get along well,

744
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 6: but who even.

745
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 4: Knows the nature of that? Right, Like it's it's so like.

746
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 6: Carolyn was probably making choices too, and not probably.

747
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 4: She definitely was.

748
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 6: But it's also notable to me like she had this

749
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 6: entree into society, so called New York society that she

750
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 6: had she was familiar with because as a VIP shopper

751
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 6: and someone with Colvin Klein, she obviously knew all of

752
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 6: these people, and she made no effort to step into

753
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 6: that role whatsoever, like not not joining a board, not

754
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 6: joining a fundraiser, not doing any of the work that

755
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 6: you associate with the Upper east Side for lack of

756
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 6: a better term, and like her refusal to participate in

757
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 6: that also speaks volumes.

758
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 4: Was it claustrophobia? Is it a phobio?

759
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 6: Is it like I have no interest in this world?

760
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 6: Like what was she doing? She basically disappeared into that

761
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 6: apartment for three years. You can count, you don't need

762
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 6: two hands to count the events that she went to,

763
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 6: some of which were funerals. Like, it's really intense the

764
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 6: degree to which she silenced herself after that wedding, Like

765
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 6: to go from being so successful to just literally disappearing

766
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 6: makes me sad for her, and like in a way

767
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 6: of like, is there are we talking about like depression

768
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 6: or anxiety in a way that we didn't have a

769
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 6: language for at the time, or all of these other

770
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 6: things that is complicated to attached to a person you've

771
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 6: never met, But like it was so severe, And then

772
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 6: you know, Cannis Bergen had that theory that pops up

773
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 6: in one of her novels, The Four Blondes. There was

774
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 6: like a Krolyn Bissett figure in that book, and who

775
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 6: was complaining that the paparazzi never or magazines never published

776
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 6: a photo of her smiling, which is very true. The

777
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 6: first photo of her smiling like appears, not including the

778
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 6: wedding photo, appears in like nineteen ninety nine, two months

779
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 6: before or they died, like in what Now that we

780
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 6: all have access to Getty images archives, you can see

781
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 6: that that's not always the case. That she looked unhappy

782
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 6: and like angry, but you can see there was choices

783
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 6: being made to attach this you know, emotion to her.

784
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 4: That Candice Bergen book.

785
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't have to put this in the podcast,

786
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 6: but when't that Happily ever After book or Prince of whatever?

787
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 6: The book was like, it was the best seller Lester

788
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 6: came out, and yeah, the prologue was like I lived

789
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 6: in New York at the time, but like most people,

790
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 6: I wasn't paying attention to Carolyn Bassett and I was like,

791
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 6: I can't read the rest of this book.

792
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 4: You have no idea what you're talking about.

793
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: Well, honestly, it's funny. We were like sort of brainstorming

794
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: people for this episode. And either you either have the

795
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: sort of like vulturous tabloid people that you know, get

796
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: off on gossip and whatever else, or you have on

797
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 1: the other side exactly what you're saying, like this completely

798
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 1: intellectually dishonest, like a counter you know, like over correction,

799
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: where it's like she was an angel and she was

800
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: like the perfect woman and she was silenced by the media,

801
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: which is not also not.

802
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 4: True, not true at all, I don't think. I mean,

803
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 4: I'd be so much more interested to hear.

804
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 6: You can find it in Instagram comments sometimes what's her name, Liz?

805
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 4: What her name?

806
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 6: Does? All the sort of nostalgia Instagram posts and to

807
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 6: do that podcast with Early Levy. If you go into

808
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 6: the comments of her posts, sometimes you can find former

809
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 6: coworkers at Calvin Klein who are like, yeah, she was

810
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 6: a lot to deal with, but of course nobody wants

811
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,439
Speaker 6: to be the person I remember talking to, like someone

812
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 6: who went to college with her, who was a friend

813
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 6: of mine, who would never go on the record saying stuff,

814
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 6: but she was like she was like a very compelling person,

815
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 6: but also she was a lot to deal with, and

816
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 6: like that.

817
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 4: As a grown up who's lived in New York for.

818
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 6: A long time, you understand what that means, and you

819
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 6: understand what who the people are who succeed in this

820
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 6: city and how they succeed and all due respect to

821
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 6: those people, but those complicated figures, particularly were beautiful women

822
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 6: are concerned, do not translate to the world at large

823
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 6: in easy ways.

824
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny, like there's this idea of the eternal

825
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: unknowability of Carolin Besset. But honestly, I'm sure you agree

826
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 1: with this. There are so many people we know in

827
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 1: New York that are actually pretty similar or are trying

828
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: to be very similar. It's like it's such a type.

829
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like it is a type of person

830
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: I know and I interact with, and it's like people

831
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: that when you first meet them, they're a little rude

832
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: to you and you're like, did I do something? But

833
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: then you sort but then someone tells you, oh no,

834
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: she's just like that.

835
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 4: Exactly.

836
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,479
Speaker 1: It's like this thing exactly, I don't the book.

837
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 4: She's just like that.

838
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, because it's and there's actually something. Yes,

839
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: it's calculating in a way, and of course she's attractive

840
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: power as you're saying. But also people just have their personalities,

841
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 1: and like some people are more introverted, some people are

842
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 1: more outspoken. Some people can help themselves and sort of

843
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: put their foot in their mouth like, and there are

844
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: just some people that are this kind of you know,

845
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: like Forloren Glamour, But that'shrase.

846
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 6: I also think New York rewards certain personalities, right, Like

847
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 6: New York is a place that rewards a certain personality type.

848
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 6: And also when you look at the physical transformation she underwent,

849
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 6: and this is before I mean botox didn't arrive until

850
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 6: two thousand.

851
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 4: And two or something like.

852
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 6: This is before we had access to all of these things.

853
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 6: She underwent a physical transformation at her own hands that

854
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 6: is so extreme within a five year period that what

855
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 6: it telegraphs to me is a woman who read the

856
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 6: room like as a woman who is extremely good at

857
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 6: reading the room and understanding what it took to move

858
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 6: through that room in a successful way. You know, she

859
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 6: went from sort of loose, long, unbrushed brown hair and

860
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 6: thick eyebrows and moves to New York and in quick succession,

861
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 6: like loses a significant amount of.

862
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 4: Weight, her eyebrows disappear, her hair goes.

863
00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 6: I remember seeing her on the street once and I

864
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 6: realized it was her just because the shade of her

865
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,479
Speaker 6: hair was so white blonde that you couldn't not look

866
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 6: at it.

867
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 4: And then realizing that.

868
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 6: She thought she was like I was making her nervous

869
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 6: because she was like I could tell that it was

870
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 6: a woman sort of like walking trying to escape, and

871
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 6: I thought, oh, oh, she's trying to escape me, Like

872
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 6: I like, she clearly moved through the streets with a

873
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 6: lot of like anxiety at that point, but like she

874
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 6: transformed herself so that when you compare a nineteen ninety

875
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 6: even once you started dating JFK. Junior, you compare a

876
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety five Carolmbasset in like thick nineties heels and

877
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 6: whatever she was wearing to like nineteen ninety seven Carolinbasset,

878
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 6: and they are two different animals all together. And that

879
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 6: fascinates me because in some ways, the tragedy of her

880
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 6: to me, the plane crash is obviously tragic, But the

881
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 6: tragedy of her to me was.

882
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 4: A woman who could not handle her own.

883
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 6: Success, right, Like she set her sights on the pinnacle

884
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 6: of everything, reached it, and then couldn't manage the reality

885
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 6: of it, and then disappeared herself, you know, Like that's

886
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 6: all all of these decisions were her making them, And

887
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 6: in that sense, I think, like that's the tragedy, Like

888
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 6: you kind of want to go and be like, are

889
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 6: you okay?

890
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 4: Do you want someone to take you for a walk?

891
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 4: You know, that kind of that kind of thing.

892
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: We're going to take a short break, stay with us,

893
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: and we're back with the United States of Kennedy.

894
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: Something that we did want to talk about, like especially

895
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 2: in terms of like the tabloid coverage of her, and

896
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: like this time in New York is like what I'm like,

897
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: I can't think I'm trying to ask about cocaine. I

898
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 2: just like, because that's it's part of this story around her,

899
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: and it was.

900
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: One of the big elements of her mythology and also

901
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: of her as like an unapproachable B word. You know,

902
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 1: it's like she's always.

903
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 2: On codd right, just the way that you've just described

904
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 2: and the way that like her, the people who knew

905
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: her described her transformation at that time and place lines

906
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 2: up with like someone who's like getting into coke or

907
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 2: be lunch continuing.

908
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, So at the time, I don't know, I think

909
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 6: that maybe popped up here and there, but I think

910
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 6: that narrative was pushed after the plane crash, because immediately

911
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 6: after the plane crash, she got blamed for being late

912
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 6: to Jersey where to the the airfield or airport while the.

913
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 4: Private planes take off.

914
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 6: So she was immediately blamed for going shopping at Barney's

915
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 6: or Berg Dwarfs for a dress and then making them late.

916
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 6: And that's why the plane crash, which is ludicrous as

917
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 6: we know it was JFK. Junior's fault in every way imaginable.

918
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,439
Speaker 6: But that that and like and also she was sitting

919
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 6: at home doing lines of coke. And I think because

920
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 6: of that, I never took those things all that seriously,

921
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 6: because they were so wrapped up in this sense of like,

922
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 6: how do we keep him pure? And like what else

923
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 6: can we load onto this woman who can't speak for herself.

924
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:24,439
Speaker 6: In hindsight understanding sort of you know, having a better

925
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 6: understanding of how certain cultures in New York work, it

926
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 6: wouldn't surprise me. But so I think she was a

927
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,479
Speaker 6: cocaine adict. I don't think she was a cocaine adict

928
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 6: in the way that we understand. I imagine she recreationally

929
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 6: used cocaine and maybe at times a lot of it,

930
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 6: and also knowing how the fashion industry works and like

931
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 6: the community she.

932
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 4: Was exposed to.

933
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 6: But I don't ever get the sense that like, I'd

934
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 6: be surprised if he.

935
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 4: Would marry an addict.

936
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 6: And you don't ever get the sense from her that

937
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 6: she's like an addict in the way that you can

938
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 6: look at people certainly and be like, oh, there's a

939
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 6: problem going on there. Even her appearance, like her appearance

940
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 6: was so intentional, and yes, parts of it you can

941
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 6: be like, wow, maybe this I's doing by a lot

942
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 6: of coke, But but I don't get it the sense

943
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 6: that like coke was the thing that was ruining her life.

944
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,359
Speaker 6: It sort of seemed like part of the way that

945
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 6: you operated in those worlds at that time. Yeah, and

946
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 6: then if you think she's sitting home alone, she literally

947
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,280
Speaker 6: sat home alone for years, Like imagine having that social

948
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 6: life and then cutting it off completely and how lonely

949
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,919
Speaker 6: that must have been, and how crazy making that must

950
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 6: have been. Like what are you doing by yourself? Are

951
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 6: you going to do a lot of coke? I don't know,

952
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 6: You're probably going to take antidepressants, right, Like we're probably

953
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 6: talking more value of the dolls than we are hard drugs.

954
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 1: But used to say sure.

955
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 4: I mean I think that's a thing.

956
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like, I don't there's nothing about her to

957
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 2: me that screams addic. It's more just like being kind

958
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 2: of fur real about what that lifestyle would have what

959
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 2: she even would have been around, because you.

960
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 4: Don't think that JFK.

961
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 6: Junior was Like I don't think he was ever a

962
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 6: person that was highly into drugs.

963
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 4: But I just think like he came up in eighties

964
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 4: in New York.

965
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 6: She arrived in New York as it was transitioning into

966
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 6: early nineties. In that world, I have to assume they're

967
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 6: all I mean, she smoked, you know, she was a smoker,

968
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 6: although you almost never saw her with a cigarette and

969
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 6: hand in public, certainly after they were married. But he

970
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 6: was a smoker, and like everyone was a smoker. You know,

971
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 6: smoking wasn't illegal in bars until the turn of the

972
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 6: last century. It was like these things were not that

973
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,800
Speaker 6: big a deal. And I also think like that culture

974
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 6: again was such a sealed one that even you remember

975
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 6: when Kate Moss got caught doing lines of coke, you know,

976
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 6: by the tabloids in like two thousand and five or something,

977
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 6: even that felt shocking on sort of like a public scale,

978
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 6: even though if in those worlds, it was probably the

979
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 6: least shocking thing possible.

980
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean, yeah, there was a I remember

981
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: I think it was like possibly Spencer Pratt by need

982
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: to double check this, but just like talking about how

983
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 2: before smartphones celebs would just be doing coke in the

984
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 2: club completely.

985
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: I mean literally, like Jenniferannison talked about that. Yeah, you

986
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 1: don't have to be some bad boy.

987
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: He is somebody who's so like vocal about like, let

988
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 2: me tell you what ruined everything.

989
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 4: I think Gwynneth has recently said that too.

990
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: It was like maybe it was Gwyneth, it wasn't it wasn't, Yes,

991
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 1: absolutely right, yeah.

992
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 4: I'm sure everybody.

993
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 6: I mean, I just remember there being coke everywhere, and

994
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 6: I was not operating at that level by any means.

995
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 6: Like I was hanging out at some of the I

996
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 6: knew the dormant at a couple of like the hot

997
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 6: clubs at that time, there was just cocaine literally everywhere.

998
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 6: It did not seem and then you have to imagine

999
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 6: like extrapolate that to backstage at a fashion show where

1000
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 6: everyone has to be high energy. I'm sure that was

1001
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 6: part of her life, but I never never even when

1002
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 6: she looked unhappy or like she was thin, like, I

1003
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 6: never there was never this sense of like even the

1004
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 6: Cape Moss heroin Chic there was not a sense of addiction.

1005
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 4: Going on there.

1006
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 6: And when those when that sort of popped up again,

1007
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 6: it was like in a way that felt really dirty

1008
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 6: and like as a way to deal, legitimize, or to

1009
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 6: make sure that JFK. Junior emerged from this scot free right,

1010
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 6: like with no responsibility.

1011
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, I think, honestly, one of the most compelling

1012
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 1: sort of elements of what you're saying is this idea

1013
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: that the media phenomenon that was Carolyn Bessett was a

1014
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: symptom of downtown New York culture suddenly being thrust on

1015
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: the national stage. Like it's so clear to me, and

1016
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: I had never thought about it like that, Like so

1017
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: these things that aren't as big of a deal, you know,

1018
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: a stunning, beautiful woman, like walking on the street, like

1019
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: someone potentially not smiling that much, someone doing a little

1020
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: bit of cocaine on a Friday night. Suddenly it's like

1021
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: you have to be like watching the nightly news and

1022
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 1: having an opinion about it as just like a normal

1023
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: American person completely.

1024
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 6: And he was such an easily like he was so

1025
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 6: easily digestible, right, he was like happy barbecue guy who

1026
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 6: like to take is always with being photographed with his

1027
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 6: shirt off at the beach. Who's like biking around New

1028
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 6: York And suddenly she appears and you're just like, you're right.

1029
00:51:59,640 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 4: She's like a.

1030
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 6: Manifestation of Manhattan in a way that is like, I mean,

1031
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 6: New York is an idea. And the reason, one of

1032
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 6: the reasons I think she has persisted for so long

1033
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 6: is because we never get tired of New York. But

1034
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 6: in the moment it's like so jarring, and it's hard

1035
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 6: for people to remember. But prior to September eleventh, New

1036
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 6: York was its own and particularly in the late nineties

1037
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 6: when La crime dropped and there was so much money

1038
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 6: and it was so glamorous and like it was the

1039
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 6: center of the world. It was also very insular and

1040
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 6: very separate from the rest of the country and there

1041
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 6: wasn't a lot off Like I remember, after nine to eleven,

1042
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 6: all the love that was directed to New York from

1043
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 6: the rest of the country felt jarring because it did

1044
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 6: not have It was not while it was a global city,

1045
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 6: it was not accessible in the way that it is

1046
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 6: it became after nine to eleven. Is like everyone's property

1047
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 6: and and so you would come, you would you would come.

1048
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 4: To New York to experience New York and it.

1049
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 6: Was so addictive and compelling in it and but like

1050
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 6: the vernacular of New York was not globally yeah, and it.

1051
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,919
Speaker 1: Wasn't like relatable. I remember that switch to like post

1052
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,760
Speaker 1: nine to eleven, from from New York being a beacon

1053
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: of you know, sin and power to suddenly being emblematic

1054
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: of the American spirit, like as though, like this is

1055
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: what America is. It's New York and specifically sorry, but

1056
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: like Wall Street like yeah, exactly, like a skyscraper.

1057
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 6: A skycade that everyone hated, right, like the World Trade

1058
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 6: Center was not.

1059
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 4: And also Windows on the World was. I remember going

1060
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 4: to it once.

1061
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 6: It was like where corporate corporations had their parties and

1062
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 6: where like it was not like it was just it

1063
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 6: was a place that I think was different from how

1064
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 6: it's remembered in ways that you know, are irrelevant to

1065
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 6: how we think of the two of them in that moment,

1066
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 6: and that the jagged edges of her were, as you say,

1067
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 6: like the jagued edges of New York.

1068
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So one of the things I had

1069
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: sort of referenced when we were introing you. Is this

1070
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: term that Vanessa Friedman used in a twenty twenty three

1071
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 1: Times piece about Carolyn Besset, where she called her a

1072
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: ghost influencer, which I think in twenty twenty three was

1073
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: especially relevant because that was when, if people remember, you know,

1074
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: the term quiet luxury was like trending on TikTok, and

1075
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: you would hear people, you would hear truly like random

1076
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: twenty two year olds talking about stealth wealth, and it

1077
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: was very sort of jarring that suddenly this was like

1078
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: the big trend. It was when I feel like the

1079
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: row was really having a moment, and you know, people

1080
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: were sort of like getting back into kind of like

1081
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: a minimalist, preppy aesthetic, clean white shirts and whatever. And

1082
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: so I would love to know, like, in your opinion,

1083
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: what the trajectory of the Krolym Besset aesthetic has been,

1084
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: Like it was huge in the in the late nineties

1085
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: early two thousands, and then you were saying it has

1086
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: sort of like made a comeback in the last few years.

1087
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 6: Well, I think right at the end of the nineties,

1088
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 6: you know, Sex and the City arrives right like the

1089
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 6: Sex and City premiered in halfway through nineteen ninety eight,

1090
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 6: but no, no one began watching it for real until

1091
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety nine, and they had to actually in the

1092
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,359
Speaker 6: second season remove a JFK. Junior reference because it aired

1093
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 6: two weeks before the plane crash, and then they had

1094
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 6: to replace it when Samantha gets back into the socialites

1095
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 6: good graces by doing the gardening work. If you want,

1096
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 6: if you find an original clip of that, it's JFK.

1097
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 6: Junior who gets her back in and they had to

1098
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 6: change it to Leonardo DiCaprio two weeks later because the

1099
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 6: plane crash happened because it aired before that. So Sex

1100
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 6: and the City arrives as a cultural force right as

1101
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 6: Carolyn Bessett exits, and the Sex and the City and

1102
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 6: Carrie in particular is opulence. And I think, you know,

1103
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,959
Speaker 6: when we think it feels normal now, but I really

1104
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 6: attribute Sex and the City and the sort of manuche

1105
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 6: of fashion, this obsession with the minuchet of fashion to

1106
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 6: Sex in the City where you start picking apart the

1107
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 6: different manolos and you start iding all of these small things.

1108
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 4: And it's like more and more and more. You know,

1109
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 4: Carrie would leave the house dress. She was the exact

1110
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 4: even though Sarah Jusca Parker dated JFK Junior prior to

1111
00:55:59,600 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 4: the ball.

1112
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 6: That's like there's like a there's an opulence to the

1113
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 6: figure of Carrie Bradshaw. And then simultaneously you have arriving

1114
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 6: in full force in that book that just came out,

1115
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 6: Girl on Girl by Sophie Gilbert really gets into this

1116
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 6: of like the Britney Spears youth culture.

1117
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 4: Of low slung genes, and.

1118
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:21,839
Speaker 6: He remember all these people's names, but like that's sort

1119
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 6: of like Nicole Richie, Paris Hilton ghost appearance, and then

1120
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:33,320
Speaker 6: Josey Cuture completely and it's very culture begins to skew

1121
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 6: to these very young girls.

1122
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 2: Right.

1123
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 6: These teen girls esthetic very over sexualized, cheap in a

1124
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 6: way I think that we can say even if the

1125
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 6: clothes themselves weren't cheap. And you know, September eleventh was

1126
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 6: a real sort of before and after moment, and these

1127
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 6: people start to emerge in the aftermath of that. And

1128
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 6: then what I really think is the before and after

1129
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 6: moment is Facebook arrives when was publicly accessible, So suddenly

1130
00:56:57,680 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 6: you have the beginning of social media that's a rived

1131
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 6: in this moment where you've got all these young girls

1132
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 6: and with their sort of tacky outfits is what is

1133
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 6: getting pushed out. It's what it sort of starts moving

1134
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 6: into magazines And how much space are you giving to

1135
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 6: Caroline Bassett and the pages of magazines before we had

1136
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 6: social media, right, Like, there's only so much space that's

1137
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 6: going You even see Gwyneth's style. She leaves behind, you know,

1138
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 6: the Calvin Klein era and starts moving into whatever she

1139
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 6: was doing next to his pre goop, and then Kate

1140
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 6: Moss moves into her real vintage era. So you're seeing

1141
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 6: all these figures that have held our attention go off

1142
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 6: into different routes at a time that social media begins

1143
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 6: to allow us to take more and more pictures of ourself.

1144
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 6: And what I think happened with Carolyn Bassett The Road

1145
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 6: takes a lot of inspiration from her. So I don't

1146
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 6: think these two things are disconnected, but I think enough

1147
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 6: time passed and she disappeared from the culture to such

1148
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 6: a degree that when I pitched that story to Town

1149
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 6: and Country, they were sort of like, oh, this could

1150
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 6: be interesting because no one knows who she is anymore. Right,

1151
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 6: Like they had disappeared from a cultural vernacular in a way,

1152
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 6: including JFK.

1153
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 4: Junior that I think it.

1154
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 6: Allowed a new generation that now has access to far

1155
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 6: more information and you know, the row to feel like

1156
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 6: they discovered her, right Like she can be a discovery

1157
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 6: now as opposed to like a permanent the same way.

1158
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 6: And I see people discover that Gwyneth Paltrower and Brad

1159
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 6: Pitt ever dated, I'm always.

1160
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 4: Like, how is that not common knowledge?

1161
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 6: But you know, I'm sure I did that with my parents' generation, right,

1162
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 6: Like you just need that like that sense of like, oh,

1163
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 6: I've just discovered this person.

1164
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 4: Did you ever know about this person?

1165
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 6: And then have the same reaction to her appearance that

1166
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 6: so many of us had to the original And if

1167
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 6: you think about that timeline, like that's fifteen or sixteen

1168
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 6: years that have passed, there's a completely different media environment. Culturally,

1169
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 6: we are re you know, addressing, as you said, all

1170
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 6: these women in the late nineties who got such a

1171
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 6: shitty ride, and Gwynneth, of course and now is in

1172
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 6: her growner years, who's now amount of phrases buena fulta

1173
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 6: was introduced into our Alexicana is really fascinating, But like

1174
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 6: she begins to introduce quiet luxury. So I think all

1175
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 6: of these things sort of like the timing of it

1176
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 6: has propelled her back into the culture in a way

1177
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 6: that I was very sensitive to because she occupied, because

1178
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 6: she was so all consuming at a particular point when

1179
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 6: I would be sensitive to when she would re emerge,

1180
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 6: because I was like, oh, it's not just like other

1181
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 6: people know who she is, like you know, in that sense,

1182
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 6: and so I was aware of it. And she's only

1183
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 6: I think in the last five years that has shifted

1184
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 6: into overdrive. You know, her clothing now gets auctioned for

1185
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 6: thousands of dollars that would not have been possible fifteen

1186
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 6: years ago.

1187
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 4: No one would have paid at ten.

1188
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 6: I mean, you would have had a small subset of

1189
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 6: like ten people myself included, with no money, who would

1190
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 6: have been like, oh, it'd be interesting to see that

1191
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 6: Yogi dress that I was always obsessed with, you know,

1192
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 6: like in real life or what was how you know

1193
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 6: what her size actually was, the way we're always obsessed

1194
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 6: with those things. But like that's selling for hundreds of

1195
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 6: thousands of dollars right now, And so I just think

1196
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 6: that it was the disappearing act of her culturally that

1197
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 6: allowed her to emerge as a discovery at a moment

1198
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 6: where we have cycled back to sort of minimalism or

1199
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 6: what wealth looks like, because now we're so exposed to

1200
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 6: people's wealth through social media, it becomes like a game

1201
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 6: of like can you hide your wealth through wealth?

1202
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 4: You know, whoever else you want to describe.

1203
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 6: Quiet luxury or Gwyneth or Gwyneth we're still living with

1204
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 6: Gwyneth as like an ever was just never going away.

1205
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the blank baseball cap on successions, like

1206
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 2: how yes, the extremely expensive, as plain as possible, as

1207
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 2: simple as possible.

1208
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 6: And in terms of like fashion moments coming, I remember,

1209
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 6: you know, I was a child of the eighties and

1210
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 6: in the mid to late eighties, the nineteen fifties as

1211
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 6: a culture became you know, maybe because back to the future,

1212
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 6: but like I remember going to my mom being like, have.

1213
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 4: You ever heard of a poodle skirt?

1214
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 6: And of course my mother was a teenager in the

1215
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 6: nineteen fifties and she was like, come with me to

1216
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 6: the basement, child, and like pulled out of her clothes.

1217
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 6: So I think it's normal for each generation to go

1218
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 6: back and we're just we're operating at such an accelerated

1219
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 6: rate now that fifteen years can feel like a lifetime

1220
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 6: and when I was a kid, it was thirty years

1221
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 6: and you know, if you read about how you know,

1222
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 6: the fashion icons of the seventies were dressing, they were

1223
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 6: all finding nineteen twenties vintage clothing to wear. So it's

1224
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 6: like we're all just tapping back to the past as

1225
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 6: you know, things that we can say we discover and

1226
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 6: it's just happening more quickly. And again, the fact she

1227
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 6: never talked allows people to attribute mystery to her and

1228
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 6: like endless, endless assumptions and fascination in a way that

1229
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 6: probably would not have held up had she not died.

1230
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I wanted to ask you, as

1231
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 1: a sort of final question, if there is anyone in

1232
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 1: today's celebrity landscape that you think is like our Carolyn Bessett.

1233
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: And when as you were talking, I was like, this

1234
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: is a stretch. But honestly, when you think about how

1235
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:03,439
Speaker 1: the Olsen twins never speak, there is something and they're

1236
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: actually like recreating that aesthetic. There's something about them that

1237
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 1: is almost approaching, you know, that kind of vibe.

1238
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about them all day because you know,

1239
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 2: my experience of the comparison of the like Paris Hilton

1240
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 2: era to like the Carolyn Bassett and the Gwyneth Paltrow

1241
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 2: is that to me as a kid, I thought, well,

1242
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 2: Paris Hilton, Nicole Ritchie, that's like what like cool like

1243
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 2: older teens, young twenties where and then Gwyneth Paltrow is

1244
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 2: what an adult woman wears like a you know, And

1245
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 2: I didn't realize I think so much, how like how

1246
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 2: much of that disappeared or I guess contextualized how much

1247
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 2: of that disappeared during that time, like that it was

1248
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 2: not sharing space, it was gone.

1249
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 4: And I am like the exact I.

1250
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 2: Think I'm two years younger than the Olsen twins, so

1251
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm packed age that I have idolized

1252
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 2: every single thing they have ever done in their entire lives,

1253
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 2: every decision they have made, every like change they have

1254
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 2: made to their appearance, and they were my obsession at that.

1255
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because they were such a big part

1256
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 1: of like boho chic, which was as Glennis as you said,

1257
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 1: like the previous that was sort of like during the

1258
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 1: Paris Hilton Rachel Zoe era, and then they were the

1259
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 1: ones who transitioned the culture into into quiet luxury. But anyway,

1260
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: I see your point. I saw shaking your head when

1261
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 1: I was no.

1262
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 6: No, I think you're making a good point. I would

1263
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 6: say the Olsen Twins I was. I'm not sure I

1264
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 6: was too old for Full House, but I remember my

1265
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 6: sisters a year and a half younger. Her friends all

1266
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 6: had a crush on John Stamos in Full House like that,

1267
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 6: and Full House always bored me. And I always associated

1268
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 6: the Olsen Twins with the two cute little kids on

1269
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 6: a on a sitcom that I thought was dumb, and

1270
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 6: so it was a long time before I looked at

1271
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 6: them as serious people, and I mean far too long,

1272
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 6: to the point where it's like, I don't understand why

1273
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 6: people are even interested in the Olsen Twins, even after

1274
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 6: they started the row, And that just goes back to

1275
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 6: how I was first introduced to them in that sort

1276
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 6: of eighties pop cultrey. But I do think you're right

1277
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 6: about the space that they occupy, and it also makes

1278
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 6: me very sad.

1279
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 4: Then this Kate Moss sort of occupied the space too.

1280
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 6: That the women who last the longest as objects of

1281
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 6: fascination are the ones who don't speak right.

1282
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 4: Jackie Kennedy was similar to that.

1283
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 6: Diana spoke eventually, but to some degree that early shy

1284
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 6: die nature, like we really Greta Garbo is still an

1285
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 6: iconic figure, like we really really reward women for being quiet,

1286
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 6: and that makes me sad, right, Like, of course, then

1287
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 6: we have Gwenneth who never shuts up, and she seems

1288
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 6: to be doing fine, So she's the flip side of that.

1289
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 1: She really is unique in that way is the to

1290
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 1: maintain a level of mystery while legitimately having like fourteen

1291
01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: media properties at any given time.

1292
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 6: And when we're talking, Abo lasted long enough to outgrow

1293
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 6: the hate I have had.

1294
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 4: Again, you can find.

1295
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 6: Women who were in late nineties New York who like

1296
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 6: all hate Gwyneth the way later generations hated Anne Hathaway.

1297
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 4: I've now come around where I'm just like Gwyneth.

1298
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 6: You're still here, like like I bat, like I was

1299
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:15,840
Speaker 6: surviving to you.

1300
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 4: Who am I to criticize? Like you are clearly a

1301
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 4: genius on something.

1302
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 2: Well. I also I remember as like, I mean, I

1303
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 2: must have been a teen major because there was I

1304
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 2: remember when the Olsen Twins hosted SNL and it was

1305
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 2: a huge cultural moment for me and my friends and

1306
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 2: we all watched it together and it was the most

1307
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 2: that you saw them, you know, like talk about themselves

1308
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 2: and talk about and they did this sketch where there's

1309
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 2: the Mary Kate perfume and the Ashley perfume and how

1310
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 2: they like have to occupy these opposite traits for women

1311
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 2: in order, you know. And I remember I learned for

1312
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 2: the first time I ever heard the quote, no is

1313
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 2: a full sentenced for.

1314
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 6: Them talk about two people who have like transformed themselves

1315
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 6: their geniuses too. I just I don't personally they never

1316
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 6: held my attention, but that is entirely generational and probably

1317
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 6: says more than my like interest in certain degrees of sophistication.

1318
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 6: But yeah, no, I think you're right that they.

1319
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 2: I mean, also everything you everything that you've said about

1320
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 2: Carolyn's intentionality, her conscious choices, and her like educated choices. Uh,

1321
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 2: I feel like it's also you could apply to them.

1322
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, George, you didn't talk to me.

1323
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: Well, Glenna's this has been an absolute delight. I have

1324
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 1: to say, I I could write, I could write a

1325
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 1: thesis on on Carolyn Misset after this conversation.

1326
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 4: I'm happy to hear it because she always fascinates me.

1327
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 6: And there was a long time when people were like,

1328
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 6: why so, it's been interesting to see her return.

1329
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 1: I was shocked when I saw the date on that article.

1330
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 1: I really you really were ahead of your time on something.

1331
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: I think that's it. Yeah, thank you so much, Thank

1332
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 1: you so much. This was really lovely.

1333
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 4: Guys, this has been a delight. Thank you very much.

1334
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 2: That's it for this week's episode. United States of Kennedy

1335
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 2: is hosted by me Lyra Smith and George Severes.

1336
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 1: Research by Dave Rus and Austin Thompson. The original music

1337
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 1: by Joshua Tapolski, edited by Graham Gibson, and mixed by

1338
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:24,840
Speaker 1: Doug bain. Our executive producer is Jenna Cagele. United States

1339
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 1: of Kennedy is a production of iHeart Podcasts.

1340
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 2: So subscribe and follow United States with Kennedy for all

1341
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 2: Thanks Kennedy every week.

1342
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.