Speaker 1: Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 3: These episodes are based on. These are our stories. Done done.
Speaker 2: Hi, Welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.
Speaker 3: This is my co host Kara, and.
Speaker 1: This is my co host Liza. So great to see
Speaker 1: you again, my love. Yeah, oh that was really sweet. Well,
Speaker 1: I have to explain.
Speaker 2: You know, we talk about an episode of SVU, we
Speaker 2: talk about the true crime it's based on, and we
Speaker 2: have a celebrity guest from the episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but call me my love again. That was cute.
Speaker 3: What's up with you, my love? What's how's your week going?
Speaker 2: I mean, we had a pretty fun day yesterday eating Chipotle,
Speaker 2: and it has ruined my day the next day, I
Speaker 2: am having some problems.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we ate Chipotle yesterday. You guys came over.
Speaker 1: I woke I had an interesting wake up because my
Speaker 1: toddler woke up a little bit sick. She's got like
Speaker 1: a little bit of a runny nose, and she woke
Speaker 1: up and she said to my husband, my nose feels crazy.
Speaker 1: So I think that's kind of like the new way
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about being sick.
Speaker 3: Oh, of course.
Speaker 2: It's just I love hearing her figure things out, Like
Speaker 2: instead of saying big, you know, she says heavy, Like yeah,
Speaker 2: it's cool to see the way the brain processes and
Speaker 2: learns how to communicate.
Speaker 3: It's been a joy. And she know she's cute.
Speaker 1: But also I'm currently wearing you can't see, but I'm
Speaker 1: currently wearing my that's messed up hot pink tank top,
Speaker 1: which is available on our merch store, please go buy.
Speaker 1: And I put that on this morning and I was
Speaker 1: in the bathroom with her and.
Speaker 3: She goes, that's Lisa's shirt.
Speaker 1: It's like, well yeah, I was like, yeah, we both
Speaker 1: have it. She's like, why did you steal Lisa's shirt.
Speaker 1: She's she's got a she's a little bit of a
Speaker 1: baby baby Benson. She's got a very ingrained sense of
Speaker 1: right and wrong. Like today Jared was talking on my
Speaker 1: phone and I had his phone in my hand, and
Speaker 1: she was.
Speaker 3: Like, give Dada back his phone. That's not your phone,
Speaker 3: that's his. Like she's so perceptive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's definitely your child. There's no way she's not.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I have caught up on the
Speaker 2: current season of lonod svo.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, the last few episodes.
Speaker 2: The actress that was in Homeland, who played Mandy Patankin's.
Speaker 3: Wife, Yes, she's in.
Speaker 2: She's so good because I remember you saying you watched
Speaker 2: that episode and you were crying, and I definitely cried. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I just like it just was really like I think
Speaker 2: they did such a good job just like encompassing how
Speaker 2: desperate times have been for people during COVID, Like I
Speaker 2: think a lot of us have been lucky, we've squeaked through,
Speaker 2: but like a lot of people haven't been. And it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, they just show this woman whose business has
Speaker 2: been touched, whose family has been touched, whose marriage has
Speaker 2: been touched, Like it's just really oh, if you're not
Speaker 2: caught up, just grab a box of tissues and settle
Speaker 2: in for that episode. And the one before it was
Speaker 2: like was like just really like graphic and also horrific.
Speaker 3: You know, no, it's an intense season.
Speaker 2: I also want to say, like when will they stop
Speaker 2: holding Benson hostage?
Speaker 3: Like when will it aunt how many more times?
Speaker 1: This one was like a little bit of a more
Speaker 1: low stakes hostage situation. Did you really ever think that
Speaker 1: this woman was going to shoot Olivia.
Speaker 2: I mean, right, no, but I got maybe with since
Speaker 2: she's not a professional gun user, she could have we
Speaker 2: you know, do some damage. I also, I have noticed
Speaker 2: all the Black Lives Matter flags in the in the
Speaker 2: background of everything. I appreciate that. And I also love that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I love iced tea. I love that he's
Speaker 2: in love. I can't get enough.
Speaker 3: Yeah, his love is fun and careesy as a girlfriend. Yeah,
Speaker 3: no one told me.
Speaker 2: No one tweeted it, no one instant story, no dms like,
Speaker 2: no one. It never came up. I just am kind
Speaker 2: of disappointed in the listeners.
Speaker 1: Well, he's dating this new woman, and I don't know
Speaker 1: that it's going to make it past that last episode
Speaker 1: that we just the first and last episode we saw
Speaker 1: her in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, but because I also liked with Rollin's
Speaker 2: dad when the dad was like, you don't accept Careese's
Speaker 2: love because you don't think that you're good enough for him,
Speaker 2: And that made me empathize with Rollins in a way.
Speaker 2: I never have you we all think she's just a
Speaker 2: dumb bitch, but really she is.
Speaker 3: You know, I wouldn't say we all.
Speaker 1: She does have several dedicated fan pages, but you specifically
Speaker 1: hate her, you know, we get dms. People agree, But
Speaker 1: I think that we are watching the evolution of your
Speaker 1: You're starting to like her. I see, yeah, I've been
Speaker 1: watching that from the beginning where you're like just shut up, rons,
Speaker 1: and now you're like, love that messy bun.
Speaker 2: Like I'm seeing the progression. I do love messy buns, Lisa.
Speaker 4: I was going to tell you about Careesy, but I
Speaker 4: got too nervous to tell you because i'd it, wasn't
Speaker 4: sure how you would feel and if it would like
Speaker 4: upset you.
Speaker 3: That's a true fact. No, I want Coriesy to have love.
Speaker 2: I want him to feel the love that he wants
Speaker 2: to give, you know, let him be a stepdad already,
Speaker 2: like he wants it so fucking bad.
Speaker 3: So true. Oh I wanted to tell you, Lisa. So okay.
Speaker 1: So we had a couple we talk about in cells
Speaker 1: on this podcast a lot and a lot of people.
Speaker 1: A couple people have written us being like, what are
Speaker 1: you saying when you say in cell? And I guess
Speaker 1: it's not like a fully universal term yet, but sadly
Speaker 1: it's it's involuntary celibate. So it's I n cel it's
Speaker 1: like a portmanteau of abbreviations of involuntarily celibate, which is
Speaker 1: like basically like horrible men who don't understand why women
Speaker 1: don't give them sex and attention and they think they
Speaker 1: always think it's because like they're not attractive enough or
Speaker 1: they don't have enough money, and it's like, no, if
Speaker 1: you actually like read what you write in Reddit.
Speaker 3: Forums, it's just who you are. It's your personality.
Speaker 1: And a lot of in cells have like done murders
Speaker 1: and like mass shootings and stuff like that, but based
Speaker 1: on like they're the philosophy, Like it's a.
Speaker 3: Very what's crazy is?
Speaker 2: I know for a fact there are women that are
Speaker 2: involuntarily celibate all over town.
Speaker 3: Why are they punching people? You know?
Speaker 2: Like I just don't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been involuntarily celibate for over a year of
Speaker 1: my life before and I never killed anybody. And I
Speaker 1: and I went on Naria chat room to talk about it.
Speaker 1: But I was reading this article that one of our
Speaker 1: friends in New York sent me that is about this
Speaker 1: plastic surgeon in Indiana who does surgery on in cells
Speaker 1: to like make them like sort of classically hot, to
Speaker 1: make them like angular and jaw like cut jaws, big lips.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like and it's just like a really wild because like
Speaker 1: people like one guy in the article like flew from Jesus.
Speaker 1: I forget where he is, maybe South Africa or something
Speaker 1: to Indian Indianapolis to.
Speaker 3: Get his face.
Speaker 1: Just readone and they're doing multiple surgeries and this guy
Speaker 1: in Indiana. This is in The Cut, which is part
Speaker 1: of New York Magazine. This article, if you want to
Speaker 1: look it up, it's called how Many Bones Would You
Speaker 1: Break to Get laid?
Speaker 3: Is the is the headline? Great title? Yeah? And I
Speaker 3: don't know. I just thought it was interesting.
Speaker 1: I wanted to bring it up to you because it's
Speaker 1: just crazy, how like these guys And honestly, they show
Speaker 1: pictures of some.
Speaker 3: Of these guys, they're not that bad looking.
Speaker 1: Nobody has like deformities, Like they're not that bad looking.
Speaker 1: It's like, if you could learn to like respect and
Speaker 1: listen and talk to women in a normal way, you
Speaker 1: would get laid.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I actually just saw a post. I wonder
Speaker 2: I would have probably just disappeared. But it was like,
Speaker 2: if you can't be friends with a woman that's not
Speaker 2: fucking you, you're gonna actually be a bad romantic partner anyways,
Speaker 2: because I think you have to be friends with your partner.
Speaker 2: You can't just and if you're together with someone for
Speaker 2: a long time, there's gonna be times you can't fuck,
Speaker 2: Like if someone has their kidney removed or something. I
Speaker 2: don't know, like we're feeling depressed. No, it's never about looks.
Speaker 2: It's all it's like people that are like, oh, if
Speaker 2: I do this or that or that, that's the reason
Speaker 2: I'm not meeting someone. And it's like it's always internal. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's internal. It's very racist. They think like that.
Speaker 1: They think that other races are like taking away all
Speaker 1: the women, like they're they're nuts.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't have any sympathy for.
Speaker 1: Them, but like, I just thought the article was interesting
Speaker 1: that there's this one guy in Indianapolis who's kind of
Speaker 1: like he basically is like, whatever you want to do,
Speaker 1: will do, Like he a lot of people, a lot
Speaker 1: of surgeons will not operate on people who have body dysmorphia.
Speaker 1: And this guy's like, no, if this is what you want,
Speaker 1: you can have it.
Speaker 2: And he just like, but these people are going to
Speaker 2: be very surprised when this does not help them get laid.
Speaker 2: I know it's just not gonna happen, But I like
Speaker 2: that this guy is swindling in cells.
Speaker 3: Like I'm not mad about it. Yeah, they're paying a
Speaker 3: lot too, Go buy a second house, don't.
Speaker 1: He has like he has like patented silicone to like
Speaker 1: make your cheekbones higher and like have that like he
Speaker 1: does jawwidening to make them they all look like they
Speaker 1: all look like kind of like silly European models for
Speaker 1: Dulcia and Cabana, you know what I mean. Like it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is a little bit too much.
Speaker 3: The cut actually is doing great work. I think was
Speaker 3: it the cut? And so I don't know.
Speaker 2: But ze Ways new show premiered and her press is amazing.
Speaker 2: She wore these one pair of Versace mules that I
Speaker 2: was like, are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah those are so cool. They're sold out.
Speaker 1: She wants them so that if you are looking for
Speaker 1: a new show, you guys have to watch z Way
Speaker 1: on showtime Ziwe z Way. She had an iconic Instagram
Speaker 1: live show that Lisa was a guest on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I regret some things I said. I mean, the
Speaker 2: whole point, her whole thing is like, you know, she's
Speaker 2: a black woman who's always or a lot of the
Speaker 2: times in white spaces, and it's uncomfortable to talk about race.
Speaker 2: So she kind of flips it and asks really like
Speaker 2: chill benine questions, but they are uncomfortable, and it's just like,
Speaker 2: I want to make white people uncomfortable. And I went
Speaker 2: on it, and I think I tried too hard not
Speaker 2: to be like I don't know, it's embarrassing to think
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: I thought you were great. I thought you were great,
Speaker 1: and you do like yes, well, she was like, what
Speaker 1: do you think about black love? I'm like, Whinny and
Speaker 1: Bobby kind of messy. She's like that's what you think,
Speaker 1: and I'm.
Speaker 3: Like, oh my god, oh my god.
Speaker 2: And then the comments are going and they're like this
Speaker 2: dumb bitch read a book like it's it's really fun.
Speaker 2: But she interviewed Frand Leebowitz, who famously doesn't really do
Speaker 2: much press.
Speaker 1: So it's like really really yeah, and she got glorious
Speaker 1: Steinem and that's on her pilot episode, So check it
Speaker 1: out if you're looking for a new show. I do
Speaker 1: have we should start, But you know, this is kind
Speaker 1: of my mo I one time was booked to do
Speaker 1: a MISS event and I thought it was for MS,
Speaker 1: so I just rolled in looking when it.
Speaker 3: Was Miss Magazine.
Speaker 2: It sure was, and so I was rushing. I booked
Speaker 2: a bunch of shows. I show up Kathen and Jimmy's there,
Speaker 2: Glorious Steinem's there. It's a full red carpet, and I'm
Speaker 2: like performing in front of these women and meeting Glorious
Speaker 2: Steinem looking like trash, and I was like, I would
Speaker 2: have brought a friend. I would have put on a limb.
Speaker 2: Why were you not dressing up for MS? Because I
Speaker 2: had other spots. It was just like, oh, I have
Speaker 2: a night of spot. I'll have to raise money for
Speaker 2: MS and go on my way. And then I had
Speaker 2: to cancel all these shows, being like, okay, I am
Speaker 2: with Glorious seignhum right now, I'm.
Speaker 3: Not coming to her show. I have to stay. But
Speaker 3: it was MS magazine. Amazing.
Speaker 1: Well, let's jump in because we've got a really really
Speaker 1: hot episode today, a classic episode, an amazing guest, a
Speaker 1: horrifying crime, the usual, so you know, get ready to
Speaker 1: be horrified.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay.
Speaker 1: Today is an episode many have asked for. It is
Speaker 1: an episode Neil Bear called one of his most haunting.
Speaker 1: Today we are doing Fault season seven, episode nineteen. Lisa,
Speaker 1: do you have thoughts of opening thoughts about this episode?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I have some thoughts, but I don't know if
Speaker 3: we're keeping it a secret.
Speaker 2: But okay, some good guest stars in this episode, some crimes,
Speaker 2: some relateationship testing moments.
Speaker 1: It isn't a iconic Bensler episode, I think because there
Speaker 1: is some shit that goes down between them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know Stabler does not handle his emotions.
Speaker 2: He gets mad at the wrong person. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: classic in many ways. There's an airport moment or is
Speaker 2: it a bus? You know, it's just it's great. Okay.
Speaker 1: So we open on a couple breaking up in a
Speaker 1: laundry room of a New York City apartment building.
Speaker 3: You know, Patty, and the guy's name is who Cares.
Speaker 1: So there, you know, she's in her laundry room and
Speaker 1: he comes in. He's like, I love you, but sometimes
Speaker 1: loves just not enough. She's like thanks, doctor Phil, and
Speaker 1: then whatever he leaves, and then she's just crying at
Speaker 1: the dryer, haven't we all? So then she hears a
Speaker 1: noise and she thinks it's her ex Tommy and this
Speaker 1: is like from the New York City Nightmare Treasure Trove, right,
Speaker 1: Like you're in your building's laundry room and like someone
Speaker 1: attacks you. It's like very no one's down there, it's
Speaker 1: dark whatever. So she's getting like she's walking to the
Speaker 1: noise and then they do this like crazy camera zoom
Speaker 1: in on her like she's being attacked. But guess what,
Speaker 1: it's a parrot. It's a parrot named Bretta. I feel
Speaker 1: like I've seen a lot of exotic birds on this view.
Speaker 1: We need to like make a note to ask Neil
Speaker 1: Bher like if someone on staff like had a bird thing, don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like there's a lot of victims
Speaker 1: with a bird or like.
Speaker 3: She was always nice to my bird, so I knew
Speaker 3: she was a good person.
Speaker 1: We already we did an episode like that. You know,
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of birds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of birds, and I don't know
Speaker 2: one person in New York with a bird.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 3: Also, Bretta is a fucked up name. Isn't that a
Speaker 3: gun name? Yeah? I think it's like it sounds very
Speaker 3: mafia gun to me.
Speaker 1: So Patty goes to bring barretta but I'm sorry, So baratta.
Speaker 3: Yeah, delicious.
Speaker 1: Patty goes to bring Bretta back to Missus Clifford. She
Speaker 1: obviously knows this bird. This bird gets out all the time.
Speaker 1: It seems like she's like, God, this place is a mess,
Speaker 1: and it is a mess, but it's also like furniture
Speaker 1: is overturned. I don't know why she's not more shocked
Speaker 1: or like suspicious that something's gone on. People can be messy,
Speaker 1: but they don't usually have their coffee table like over
Speaker 1: on its side. She puts the bird back, and then
Speaker 1: she sees as she's leaving, she sees like a foot
Speaker 1: coming out of the kitchen. She walks in and finds
Speaker 1: mister and Missus Clifford murdered in their kitchen, blood everywhere.
Speaker 3: It's pretty gross. So now we cut to the police.
Speaker 3: Are there?
Speaker 1: Doctor Melinda Warner is giving us like the full expository rundown,
Speaker 1: no sign of forced entry. Simon Clifford is the man
Speaker 1: age forty seven.
Speaker 3: I need everybody to go back to this.
Speaker 1: Episode, pause on this man's face and tell me that
Speaker 1: is a forty seven year old man.
Speaker 3: He looks sixty, so I don't know.
Speaker 1: He has a full head of gray hair and a mustache.
Speaker 1: He does not look forty seven. I'm just saying, did
Speaker 1: you have any did did that ring for you?
Speaker 3: Lisa? No, it didn't.
Speaker 2: I'm really bad with ages. I feel like that's just
Speaker 2: not something I comprehend well. Like people will be like
Speaker 2: I'll talk about someone and the person I'm.
Speaker 3: With will always ask how old is are they?
Speaker 1: And I never have an idea. Okay, well, I thought
Speaker 1: this man looked much older than forty.
Speaker 3: Sive of him.
Speaker 2: But my favorite age game is like when you go
Speaker 2: back and watch a rom common, someone is twenty seven
Speaker 2: and about to slit their wrists for not being married.
Speaker 3: Like those are the moments I love.
Speaker 2: I love what I'm like, Oh, I'm twenty five, Like
Speaker 2: my best friends are runaway b one of the weddings
Speaker 2: with Julia Roberts, she's like twenty seven and miserable, and
Speaker 2: it's like.
Speaker 1: If you go back and watch the Bird Cage, Calista Flockhart.
Speaker 3: Is nineteen marrying the guy and they're just like, they're
Speaker 3: a little young, but it's like nineteen. Anyway, times have changed, but.
Speaker 2: Also as a culture, we do all look better than
Speaker 2: back in the day.
Speaker 1: I think, yes, at the age of forty seven, but
Speaker 1: I still think this man looks like a not sixty
Speaker 1: years old if he's a day, but he has been
Speaker 1: dead for about five hours. His throat's been cut from behind,
Speaker 1: and it was a hunting knife used for butchering.
Speaker 3: They and then Lilah Clifford is the wife. She was
Speaker 3: on the run.
Speaker 1: It's not as clean of a attack because.
Speaker 3: She was trying to escape.
Speaker 1: And then we hear about the third victim, Amy Clifford,
Speaker 1: who is their sixteen year old daughter.
Speaker 3: She has not been cut at all.
Speaker 1: There is signs of sexual assault, but no seaman or spermicide.
Speaker 1: So doctor Warner is hypothesizing that either he couldn't get
Speaker 1: a boner or he got scared off and then he
Speaker 1: choked her to death. So then they're like, let me
Speaker 1: show you the kids room, and you're like bracing yourselves
Speaker 1: that there's going to be like two dead kids. But
Speaker 1: we go into this room and there's no bodies, no blood,
Speaker 1: and the two children that you normally occupy the room,
Speaker 1: Ryan age nine and Rebecca age seven, are missing.
Speaker 3: Done, done credits.
Speaker 2: I'd rather some missing kids than some slashed up dead
Speaker 2: kids in a bed.
Speaker 3: I don't think we would see that. Yeah, we've seen it.
Speaker 3: We've seen it. We've seen it.
Speaker 1: But at the beginning of the episode, that's a little
Speaker 1: our listeners are nuts.
Speaker 3: They're like, do charisma.
Speaker 2: We don't want to, we don't need, we don't need
Speaker 2: a house of dead children.
Speaker 3: I mean, we'll do okay.
Speaker 1: So tap of act one, Olivia is showing pictures of
Speaker 1: the kids to Kragan, and Cragan's out on the streets
Speaker 1: and we Craigan in the street, right.
Speaker 3: I love a Craigan in the street.
Speaker 1: He's got his little neozy's hat on and he is
Speaker 1: ready to give orders.
Speaker 3: And the sheets you didn't even do with the fun.
Speaker 3: You're like, because I do.
Speaker 1: The Craigan is a stabler in the sheets. You were saying,
Speaker 1: I want a Cragan in the streets and a Stabler
Speaker 1: in the sheet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you did nothing with that. I'm like, shh. I
Speaker 2: was sitting here waiting like she's gonna do a little joke.
Speaker 1: No, I'm sorry, sorry, I didn't do that joke. I
Speaker 1: respect Ludacris too much. But you I want to say,
Speaker 1: you love that era of music too, It's I do.
Speaker 1: So that's a good Maybe that's a good idea for merch.
Speaker 1: Craigan in the streets Benceler Bence, no Stabler in the sheets,
Speaker 1: but half our audience probably.
Speaker 3: Wants Benson in the sheets anyway, cut all of this,
Speaker 3: but that's not the game. I guess she does slap
Speaker 3: people around.
Speaker 1: Okay, you don't know what she's like in bed, except
Speaker 1: I guess we've seen her like snuggle up in a
Speaker 1: man's shirt a couple of times.
Speaker 3: All right, So the manhunt.
Speaker 1: Is underway for this psychopath who has murdered his family
Speaker 1: and kidnap these two children.
Speaker 3: So he Stabler finds out all this information.
Speaker 1: He goes The family's lived here for seven years, the
Speaker 1: mom and dad have both been popped for drug possession.
Speaker 1: Their oldest son is in sing sing for armed robbery.
Speaker 1: So then it's like, oh, oh, Hallerin wants your attention.
Speaker 1: He's our hot rip tech who finds a bunch of
Speaker 1: footprints that are all kind of in a tight cluster,
Speaker 1: like of standing and walking in a circle that has
Speaker 1: a perfect view of Ryan and Rebecca's bedroom. This seems
Speaker 1: like insane police work to me to just like walk
Speaker 1: around and see if you find a bunch of matching footprints,
Speaker 1: but I get they did that. And then this little
Speaker 1: old landlord shows up. He of course, like everything in SVU,
Speaker 1: is the landlord that knows this entire family story. He's like, oh,
Speaker 1: Simon Clifford, the man who's been murdered is just the
Speaker 1: kid's stepdad, and he married Lilah last fall, but they
Speaker 1: shacked up right after Glenn moved out. Now, Glenn, just
Speaker 1: a side note, is the name of the of this character.
Speaker 1: He's also the name of Bob Saggett's character. And one
Speaker 1: of our listeners who is named Glenn said that they
Speaker 1: started a list of an informal list of Glenn's in
Speaker 1: TV shows and movies recently and that it is mostly villains,
Speaker 1: ben bad people. Yeah, Glenn is not.
Speaker 3: A good name. Sorry to that man. I'm sorry to
Speaker 3: this man.
Speaker 1: So anyway, they got together after Glenn moved out. There
Speaker 1: was a big custody fight. They would get violin with
Speaker 1: each other all the time, and he was like, he
Speaker 1: came by a couple of nights ago, he threatened to
Speaker 1: kill her, and again, yeah, this landlord knows every personal
Speaker 1: family detail. So now we've got Glenn. He's an interrogation
Speaker 1: and he's like, it was all talk. I was just
Speaker 1: mad because she was going to move my kids to Florida.
Speaker 1: She's letting a drug addict raise my kids, and he's like,
Speaker 1: search my house, do whatever you want. Like, he's definitely
Speaker 1: not you get the feeling, he's definitely not the guy,
Speaker 1: and he's obviously very upset that his oldest daughter has
Speaker 1: been murdered and his two children are missing. So now
Speaker 1: we're at Sing Sing. They take you on a lot
Speaker 1: of rides in this episode before we get to the
Speaker 1: actual meat of who has these kids. So now we're
Speaker 1: at Sing Sing talking to the eldest son, Calvin. They're
Speaker 1: asking him, how have you made any friends in prison?
Speaker 1: Are you in the Aryan Nation? And he says no,
Speaker 1: But then ic T's like, don't even try this shit
Speaker 1: with me. I see that you have eight eight on
Speaker 1: your wrist, which Munch clarifies the eighth letter.
Speaker 3: Of the alphabet is H.
Speaker 1: So eight eight stands for Kyle Hitler, and the guy goes, well,
Speaker 1: I like my ass the way it is, So I
Speaker 1: got a fall in with somebody.
Speaker 3: That's an interesting quote. I mean, I think that's probably
Speaker 3: how a lot of people in prison feel.
Speaker 2: I mean I think, yeah, you have to just do it.
Speaker 2: I just wonder if we went, like what else white
Speaker 2: Jews would.
Speaker 3: Do oh late in like a lady jail. I don't know,
Speaker 3: like would the Nazis let us in or would we
Speaker 3: have no group to go to? Yeah, that's true. We
Speaker 3: wouldn't be able to go with the Aryan women. Were
Speaker 3: there Jewish women? Well, Cindy Cindy in Orange's New Black Converts,
Speaker 3: but just something she ality has her group of friends.
Speaker 1: Yes, send anything, but if you guys have any ideas
Speaker 1: for what gangsley's then I can join. When we're in prison.
Speaker 1: We would really appreciate it. Send those straight to the DMS.
Speaker 1: So this guy says, there's no way I pissed anyone
Speaker 1: off enough to kill my entire family. And he's basically like,
Speaker 1: I'm not. My stepdad is scum. He hangs out with scums,
Speaker 1: so he's probably like, it's my stepdad or somebody connected
Speaker 1: to him. And he said he talked to Rebecca a
Speaker 1: week ago and that she was home midday from school,
Speaker 1: which is weird. She picked up the phone and that
Speaker 1: the school had sent her home. No one would say why,
Speaker 1: and the whole situation seems sketchy. So now we're at
Speaker 1: Rebecca's school and Rebecca's teacher is saying, oh, she didn't
Speaker 1: do anything wrong.
Speaker 3: She was upset because.
Speaker 1: There was a man hanging outside the school yard, and
Speaker 1: by the time another kid came and told me about it,
Speaker 1: I went out there. Rebecca was right up at the
Speaker 1: fence and this guy was jerking off and Rebecca was
Speaker 1: just standing there traumatized. So she pulled her away, and
Speaker 1: then she and a bunch of other girls who saw
Speaker 1: this were upset and they all got sent home early.
Speaker 1: And the teacher goes, but I drew this just in case,
Speaker 1: because the cops told her, don't worry. This guy probably
Speaker 1: won't come back and this has nothing to do with anything,
Speaker 1: which is insane. And then the teacher goes, don't worry,
Speaker 1: I drew this and just pulls out a stunning portrait
Speaker 1: of this pedophile and she's like, I'm the art teacher,
Speaker 1: Like it's a full framer, right, it's beautiful. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I like all the details.
Speaker 3: Of this character that we're about to meet.
Speaker 1: So they're at the precinct talking about how they're going
Speaker 1: to get the drawing out to the media, and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: Lilah Clifford's bank account just got emptied out, and apparently
Speaker 1: it was only like sixty dollars. So they try to
Speaker 1: go get the ATM footage, but before they do that,
Speaker 1: we do see Ryan and Rebecca's faces on NY one,
Speaker 1: which is I know we're not allowed to stay iconic anymore,
Speaker 1: but I and NYC icon Sorry, I love n Y one.
Speaker 2: One time I thought I was going to be hosting
Speaker 2: the Halloween parade for New York one, but I wasn't.
Speaker 2: But I told everyone I was what like I was
Speaker 2: just going to be interviewed for my costume during the parade,
Speaker 2: but I thought I was going to be the correspondent.
Speaker 3: And so I was like, and so I brought a friend.
Speaker 2: Everyone at the cellar like put the TVs on, and
Speaker 2: they're like, you weren't on the TV.
Speaker 3: And I was like, where was the miscommunication, Lisa?
Speaker 2: Maybe my dreams were bigger than my reading comprehension.
Speaker 1: And I was just like, like the word host was
Speaker 1: just not in it anywhere.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: I was waiting and waiting, and then I like they
Speaker 2: kept interviewing other people in front of me, and I
Speaker 2: was like, I thought I was going to be interviewing
Speaker 2: people Like I just assumed I was going to be
Speaker 2: the host and it wasn't it was their newscasters.
Speaker 1: So, oh my god, Lisa trigger the grand Marshal of
Speaker 1: the Halloween career.
Speaker 3: I wish one day and one day.
Speaker 1: So they do check this ATM footage and they see
Speaker 1: that this guy made Ryan use the ATM. There's like
Speaker 1: you can see just like like the little corner of
Speaker 1: a kid's head.
Speaker 3: Going up to use the ATM. And uh.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Olivia gets a call. They've got an idea on
Speaker 1: the sketch, so they had to outdoor Adventures and this
Speaker 1: guy bits perfectly into the cannon of SVU side characters.
Speaker 1: He remembers an exact order that somebody made at his
Speaker 1: outdoor store one month ago. He remembers everything he bought.
Speaker 1: I understand maybe remembering that he got the telephoto lens,
Speaker 1: because it is that he got this telephoto lens camera
Speaker 1: that's like two grand top of the line. He's only
Speaker 1: sold three of them, so I guess he could remember that.
Speaker 1: But he also remembers, oh, he bought a couple of
Speaker 1: kids sleeping bags, rope, a hunting knife, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: the memory on this guy is very impressive. And then
Speaker 1: he obviously has looked through and found that the guy
Speaker 1: used a credit card and so now boom, we've got
Speaker 1: the identity. Victor Paul Gaetano is the name of this man.
Speaker 1: So they find out that Victor Paul Gaetano was arrested
Speaker 1: six weeks ago from molesting a nine year old. He
Speaker 1: skipped bail, and he's a registered sex offender for a
Speaker 1: rape of a child with serious bodily harm that stems
Speaker 1: from a previous crime in nineteen eighty seven when he
Speaker 1: held a twelve year old boy hostage, tortured, raped, burn
Speaker 1: him horrible. And as we're hearing all this, we are seeing,
Speaker 1: we're hearing this like simultaneously, as the cops bust into
Speaker 1: Gaetano's apartment, they're checking everything. Nobody is there, but they
Speaker 1: did find the little girl's baret, so they know that
Speaker 1: they like kind of just miss them that they were there.
Speaker 1: So now we've got Huang on the scene doing a
Speaker 1: little bit more exposition, kind of reading from a report
Speaker 1: by doctor PAULA. Greenfield, who treated Gaetano back in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: He basically this guy is a full psychopath. He self
Speaker 1: reported that as a teen he sexually assaulted over a
Speaker 1: dozen girls and boys, all strangers to him sexuality and
Speaker 1: inflicting pain are like fully intertwined for him from an
Speaker 1: early age. Huang doesn't believe that Gaetano was a pedophile
Speaker 1: in the classic sense. They just think he's a sadist
Speaker 1: and he probably chooses children because they're easier to control.
Speaker 1: It turns out he was kicked out of his program
Speaker 1: that he was in Pennsylvania with doctor Greenfield after three
Speaker 1: years because he refused to participate and express desire to
Speaker 1: continue his behavior. And you know, Stabler rightfully is like
Speaker 1: wide and they just commit him. And Wang keeps saying, oh,
Speaker 1: he didn't fit the criteria, and Finn's like, well, it
Speaker 1: sounded like he said I'm going to reoffend, So how
Speaker 1: does that.
Speaker 3: Not fit the criteria?
Speaker 1: And Wang explains, you know, psychotherapy encourages you to express
Speaker 1: your desires and thoughts without fears of being punished, So technically,
Speaker 1: I don't think they can take what he says in
Speaker 1: therapy sessions and like use it against him. So even
Speaker 1: though there's all this evidence that he would probably reoffend,
Speaker 1: I guess it was like not enough criteria for a
Speaker 1: civil commitment. So now we go to Pennsylvania and talk
Speaker 1: to doctor Paula. Greenfield, who we've already seen in our
Speaker 1: time doing this podcast. She's played by Rebecca Weisaki, and
Speaker 1: she has she has big.
Speaker 3: Sandra Bernhard vibes to me.
Speaker 1: And if you recognize her, it's because she played Marcy,
Speaker 1: the woman in Serendipity who helped that pregnant woman find
Speaker 1: the baby parents who worked at the flavor factory. Yes, remember,
Speaker 1: she was like, we got along really great, Like she
Speaker 1: worked at like a suicide hotline and you're not supposed
Speaker 1: to become friends with people, but she like, she got
Speaker 1: along great with that woman and then helped her give
Speaker 1: her baby away. So she said that guy town has
Speaker 1: probably been planning this for months, maybe even years, Like
Speaker 1: the planning of it is what kind of gets him going.
Speaker 1: She's like, I have no idea what he was even
Speaker 1: like before he was in prison. He's he's like a
Speaker 1: full scale liar. Never isn't lying, Like one second he
Speaker 1: says he was molested and he's like, no, my mother
Speaker 1: was an angel, Like I never knew my father.
Speaker 3: Just kidding.
Speaker 1: I moved around all the time because my dad was
Speaker 1: in the military. Like he just was lying all the time.
Speaker 1: And she said, you know, eventually you just realize he's
Speaker 1: playing you. He's never telling the truth ever. And Huong's like,
Speaker 1: these are the worst kinds of offenders because they really
Speaker 1: make you believe you can help them, and Greenfield's like,
Speaker 1: you can't help a sociopath. It's this whole debate about
Speaker 1: sex offenders being cured, like I can't cure you of
Speaker 1: needing oxygen to breathe.
Speaker 3: Which is interesting because there is.
Speaker 1: Research about, you know, whether you can cure sex offender,
Speaker 1: whether their urges can be like with hell. But someone
Speaker 1: like this, I think it's different because it's not just
Speaker 1: a sexual desire.
Speaker 3: It's like a violet.
Speaker 1: It's like a desire for violence that I don't think
Speaker 1: you can get from, like you know, being in a
Speaker 1: consensual relationship or looking at pornography or whatever. So she says, basically,
Speaker 1: he sees weakness in you and he exploits it. And
Speaker 1: she said for her, her weakness was her revulsion of him.
Speaker 1: So he was like super detailed and would sit and
Speaker 1: like weave these tales of torturing children like it was
Speaker 1: telling a bedtime story. And she says she thinks her
Speaker 1: greatest accomplishment with him was teaching him how to imitate
Speaker 1: normal human behavior, and that essentially made him more dangerous,
Speaker 1: and she says, I've got all his journals and taped sessions.
Speaker 3: I don't know if any of this is going to
Speaker 3: help you.
Speaker 1: So then Huang and Kragan are back at the precinct
Speaker 1: watching one of these video sessions of Gaetano, and that's
Speaker 1: when we learn that he is played by Oscar nominated
Speaker 1: legend and Lou Diamond Phillips. So I'm obsessed with him
Speaker 1: from La Bamba and here he is as a serial
Speaker 1: killer and he's confessing to like, you know, cutting a
Speaker 1: kid and all this blood that comes out, and it's
Speaker 1: just really gross because he is really talking about it,
Speaker 1: almost like it's romantic.
Speaker 3: It's really disgusting.
Speaker 1: And this is intercut with scenes of Huang interviewing one
Speaker 1: of Gaetano's victims. And I've always remembered this interview, like
Speaker 1: from when I watched this episode years and years ago,
Speaker 1: i always have remembered this interview with this guy because
Speaker 1: it's just so sad, how like he just lives in
Speaker 1: a bubble of trauma, and like he says, like, I
Speaker 1: never knew people could do things like that to your
Speaker 1: body or be so evil, and he's basically like, I
Speaker 1: don't leave the house.
Speaker 3: I work online.
Speaker 1: I haven't gone outside in years, but you know, I've
Speaker 1: got TV and I can order anything I want off
Speaker 1: the internet.
Speaker 3: And it's not a bad life, not a bad life
Speaker 3: at all.
Speaker 1: And I just always remember that monologue as for lack
Speaker 1: of a better word, haunting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this comes up a lot, and I've been thinking
Speaker 2: about it a lot.
Speaker 3: How so much like quote.
Speaker 2: Unquote bad behavior, like these things stay with you and
Speaker 2: just how much trauma people are carrying around, and that
Speaker 2: we need to stop judging people for their wacko behaviors
Speaker 2: and realize like or try to think like, oh what
Speaker 2: made them like this?
Speaker 3: Right, instead of just being mad at people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just honestly, Hunting Ground has taken over for
Speaker 2: the worst interview for me, because like the rope mark
Speaker 2: on her neck.
Speaker 1: Do you remember, oh, the girl that's in the that's
Speaker 1: in the mental institution?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like yeah that one. When you were like this
Speaker 2: interview fucked me up. I was like that Hunting Ground
Speaker 2: one has not left my brain for sure.
Speaker 1: So basically now they're saying they're getting more clear picture
Speaker 1: of this guy, and they're like if the kids are
Speaker 1: around still and alive, they won't be for long, so
Speaker 1: like we got to move fast. So then they get
Speaker 1: a tip that there's been a sighting of Gaetano at
Speaker 1: the George Washington Bridge bus terminal, where I've never been.
Speaker 3: I think, Lisa, you said you've been there one time.
Speaker 3: I've been on the bridge. I don't know about the
Speaker 3: bus terminal.
Speaker 1: Oh, I thought you said, Oh no, sorry, it was Hannah.
Speaker 1: Hannah's been there. So we meet this fucking money transfer guy.
Speaker 1: I can't stand this guy. Whenever I watch this episode,
Speaker 1: I want to punch this guy in the face.
Speaker 3: Look, he's very smart.
Speaker 1: He works at a money transfer place where Gaetano came
Speaker 1: and he recognized him because he recognized the kids. The
Speaker 1: kids look like zombies and were just like standing there traumatized.
Speaker 3: So this guy is smart.
Speaker 1: He told him, oh, I don't have your wire transfer yet,
Speaker 1: but it's coming in.
Speaker 3: It'll be here by four, and he stalled him so
Speaker 3: he could call the cops. Very smart.
Speaker 1: That's where this man's intelligence ends. Then he has no
Speaker 1: chill at all. They're all hanging around the bus station
Speaker 1: waiting for Guyitana to show up, and this guy is
Speaker 1: sitting there like wide eyed, like doing a cartoon impression
Speaker 1: of somebody who's nervous.
Speaker 2: It's definitely top like comedic moments on SVU, I would say.
Speaker 1: I mean, he won't stop looking at this killer, Like
Speaker 1: it's like just look down at a piece of paper
Speaker 1: and draw a smiley face, like do something else besides
Speaker 1: look so fucking obviously terrified.
Speaker 2: And he keeps talking to Stabler, like he keeps talking
Speaker 2: and Stablers like shut the fuck up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because like this guy's looking over and seeing a
Speaker 1: man staring directly at him, button using his mouth to
Speaker 1: talk to the person that's in front of him. Like
Speaker 1: it's completely it's just like, oh, he's driving me nuts.
Speaker 1: And it's also like you're behind glass and the cops
Speaker 1: are everywhere. Why are you worried that something's gonna happen
Speaker 1: to you? Like he's like, don't leave me here, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna get murdered. It's like, you're fine. So Gaetano shows up,
Speaker 1: He sees money order guy looking totally fucking flipped, so
Speaker 1: he tips him off. He starts running, and now this
Speaker 1: is where like things get completely nuts. There's like a
Speaker 1: million people in this bus station. Gaetano and Benson and
Speaker 1: Stable are just like knocking people over left and right,
Speaker 1: like throwing elbows.
Speaker 3: People are just falling, packages are flying.
Speaker 1: They're all like you know, splitting up and taking different
Speaker 1: taxs and trying to find this guy head him off
Speaker 1: up here, blah blah blah. Suddenly, like a whole massive
Speaker 1: people start running. Stabler's running against the flow of traffic,
Speaker 1: and we don't really know why they're running. Maybe Gaetano
Speaker 1: was like there and just pulled a knife or something.
Speaker 1: And then Elliott sees the little boy, Ryan just standing
Speaker 1: there dazed and looking at him, and he's like, Ryan,
Speaker 1: come here, I'm gonna get you. And then he looks
Speaker 1: over and sees Guetano holding the little girl. Then Benson
Speaker 1: comes out of nowhere and goes freeze. He slashes Benson
Speaker 1: with a knife in the neck, and he just heads
Speaker 1: up the escalator.
Speaker 3: With Ryan and Rebecca.
Speaker 1: So Stabler has to think which I guess an escalator
Speaker 1: seems like a sketchy They're so slow moving, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Stable has to think fast.
Speaker 1: He's like, do I chase the kids and the guy,
Speaker 1: or do I check on Olivia, Like he may have
Speaker 1: just like hit her full corotid artery which is not
Speaker 1: in her butt, and like she could be dying, right,
Speaker 1: So he decides to check on Olivia.
Speaker 3: She's like, I'm okay, I'm okay, go find Gaetano.
Speaker 1: You can tell he really thinks that he has like
Speaker 1: he when he comes up to her, like, he looks
Speaker 1: like no, like she's dying, So you can tell that
Speaker 1: he thinks it's really serious, but it is more of
Speaker 1: a nick. And then Stabler gets upstairs and there's a
Speaker 1: crowd of people gathered around, and Fin's like, don't come
Speaker 1: over here.
Speaker 3: He killed Ryan.
Speaker 1: He slid his throat, and Stabler is like super super shook,
Speaker 1: and Gaetano has disappeared with Rebecca into the crowd. I
Speaker 1: don't understand the skills of these killers. Should just move
Speaker 1: through crowds holding a child, and I don't know. I
Speaker 1: guess everybody was getting out of the way because he
Speaker 1: has a hunting knife in his hand. So now Elliott
Speaker 1: is freaking out about how close he was just saving
Speaker 1: the boy. And Elliot's like brooding and all mad, and
Speaker 1: Olivia is like trying to console him, and he's like, please,
Speaker 1: don't try to help me out right now. And it's
Speaker 1: like a little bit intense because they both were involved
Speaker 1: in this and.
Speaker 2: Clearly it's like, yeah, it is your fault. It's like,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, it is your fault. You
Speaker 2: fucked up? Would you rather hear that right now? You
Speaker 2: got a kid killed?
Speaker 3: What do you want?
Speaker 2: They are It's like you don't want anyone to be
Speaker 2: nice to you, then I'll tell you the truth. It's
Speaker 2: your fault.
Speaker 1: She never said, Elliott, help me come over here, like
Speaker 1: he made Yeah, So we get into this, but basically
Speaker 1: they're having this little.
Speaker 3: Argument over like where he could have gone.
Speaker 1: And then uniformed officers like, there's a carjacking two blocks
Speaker 1: up the street.
Speaker 3: They like assume this has to do with.
Speaker 1: I guess it's probably fits that Gaetano's description. So they
Speaker 1: get to the street of.
Speaker 3: This car jacking. This woman is like, they took my car.
Speaker 3: He had a kid with him, I just got out
Speaker 3: of the car. Blah blah blah. She's hysterical.
Speaker 1: And then Elliott all of a sudden, out of nowhere,
Speaker 1: just picks up a pipe because there's just pipes lying
Speaker 1: around in New York, guys, it's the city that never
Speaker 1: doesn't have pipes lying around and just slams the window
Speaker 1: in of this car, and Olivia is like, what the
Speaker 1: fuck are you doing? And he's like, this car has
Speaker 1: a flat tire and look, check out, there's no tags.
Speaker 1: He obviously came to this block for a certain reason
Speaker 1: and this is his car, and Olivia is doubting him,
Speaker 1: and he turns out to be right.
Speaker 3: He Stabler finds a notebook with a.
Speaker 1: Guy's name on it and the name of the money
Speaker 1: transfer place and an amount of money in a phone.
Speaker 1: So they bring in this guy who's the one who's
Speaker 1: supposed to be sending Gaetano the money, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I only know him from the Air Force. We haven't
Speaker 1: seen each other in twenty years. Stabler's like trying to
Speaker 1: do this bad cop shit, like if I find out
Speaker 1: you're lying, I'll fucking wear your head for breakfast or whatever.
Speaker 1: I don't know what am I even talking about, Like
Speaker 1: I'll wear your head for breakfast. That's that's the kind
Speaker 1: of shit. So he's like doing his bad cop shit.
Speaker 1: He storms out, Olivia follows, and now we get a
Speaker 1: real moment with these two. She's like, you got something
Speaker 1: you want to say to me, because if you do,
Speaker 1: let's hear it. And he's like, why didn't you shoot
Speaker 1: Gaetano And she's like he was using a child.
Speaker 3: As a shield.
Speaker 1: There were civilians everywhere. I couldn't get a shot, Like
Speaker 1: I mean, you have to agree with her, like she's
Speaker 1: not going to endanger other people. And then he's like,
Speaker 1: I can't be looking over my shoulder all the time
Speaker 1: to see if you're okay, and I need to know
Speaker 1: you can do your job and not wait for me
Speaker 1: to come to the rescue.
Speaker 3: So kind of fucked up this stuff. And she's like,
Speaker 3: you know, that's not how it is.
Speaker 1: But then Craigan Daddy Egan comes up and breaks up
Speaker 1: the kids fighting and he threatens to suspend them. Suddenly
Speaker 1: it's like we get that call that they get, you know,
Speaker 1: once per episode.
Speaker 3: At least, Warner's got to show you guys something.
Speaker 1: So they go to see Melinda Warner the Emmy and
Speaker 1: she shows them that there is something phosphorescent all over
Speaker 1: the jacket that Ryan was wearing. Elliott is really continuing
Speaker 1: to just be the mayor of asshole City, and he's
Speaker 1: just like, what do we here for a light show?
Speaker 3: Like what is this? Like what is it?
Speaker 1: Just like I mean, if you're running it for tests,
Speaker 1: like why did you bring us down here? Like and
Speaker 1: then he just kind of walks out and Warner goes,
Speaker 1: Sometimes all that brooding intensity is just annoying, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: put it.
Speaker 3: On a T shirt, Doctor Warner. I love it.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you told me fifteen years ago that
Speaker 2: I would be hating on Stabler this hard, I would
Speaker 2: never have believed you.
Speaker 3: I can't believe how much I've turned on him recent
Speaker 3: like revisiting and such.
Speaker 1: We've all grown this toxic maxculinity will not stand man.
Speaker 1: So Warner also has a cell phone that she found
Speaker 1: with the boy, and Olivia's like, well, we found all that,
Speaker 1: we accounted for all the cell phones, so this one
Speaker 1: must be actually Gaetano's cell phone. And it turns out
Speaker 1: it is Gaetano's work phone, and the tech is able
Speaker 1: to basically because it's a work phone, they have this
Speaker 1: extra tracking software on it because no one trusts their employees,
Speaker 1: and they're able to pull up all of Gaetano's whereabouts
Speaker 1: for the last month.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I also was about to say, when has Melinda
Speaker 2: ever failed you?
Speaker 3: Motherfucker? Yeah? When has she ever played games with? You?
Speaker 3: Always comes through right.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I have had the thought before, why wasn't this
Speaker 1: a phone call you? Know, because sometimes they do go
Speaker 1: all the way to the Emmy's office and it's like.
Speaker 3: Okay, I feel like you could have texted that.
Speaker 2: You know why it's not a phone call because it's
Speaker 2: not cinematic and we need to see her.
Speaker 3: I know, of course, Okay, sorry, I believe I believe you.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying this.
Speaker 1: In this instance, it's like she had to give you
Speaker 1: the cell phone and the other information is important too,
Speaker 1: So he's just being a bitch. And now, well, well
Speaker 1: Olivia's out there chasing down fucking lists of places this
Speaker 1: guy has been. Elliott's just like showing up at Huang's
Speaker 1: office like crying because he basically won't go see a therapist.
Speaker 3: And he's like.
Speaker 1: I wish I didn't, and Houanng's like care so much
Speaker 1: and he's like, that's what makes you a good partner,
Speaker 1: and it's like okay, and then he goes, she made
Speaker 1: me turn away and he's like how how did she
Speaker 1: make you do anything? And this is the full philosophy
Speaker 1: of the summer camp that I went to where as
Speaker 1: a counselor, they taught us like this whole philosophy of
Speaker 1: uh well, it's been called many things. Reality therapy control theory,
Speaker 1: but like basically the idea that no one makes you
Speaker 1: feel any way. You feel the things you feel. You
Speaker 1: choose to feel how you want to feel. So it's
Speaker 1: exactly what Hawang is talking about here. You made your decision,
Speaker 1: you chose your feeling for Olivia, and that's not something
Speaker 1: you can blame on her. And so Elliott does realize
Speaker 1: eventually that it was his own choice and that he's
Speaker 1: responsible for it. So now he's back at the precinct
Speaker 1: and he gets the results of the glowing a phosphorescent
Speaker 1: substance on Ryan's jacket are copper and zinc cadmium sul fight.
Speaker 1: Of course, this is going to lead us into a
Speaker 1: Munch monologue where we don't really care, but he basically
Speaker 1: is like, well, the military was spreading the stuff all
Speaker 1: over the city back in the seventy whatever.
Speaker 3: We basically find.
Speaker 1: Out that this is a chemical that like was involved
Speaker 1: with sort of like a simulation of nuclear testing, So
Speaker 1: it would be probably found at an old military facility
Speaker 1: or like a current military facility. So Stabler Menson meet
Speaker 1: up at this industrial site in New Jersey, a metal
Speaker 1: plating facility, but it was once a military facility, so
Speaker 1: they're kind of they feel like they're getting closed. The
Speaker 1: place looks totally shut down, perfectly great place to hide
Speaker 1: a child and hide out if you're a wanted fugitive.
Speaker 1: So they enter the facility really quietly, they smell cigarettes.
Speaker 1: They kind of know that they're closed. They separate so
Speaker 1: they can close in on Gaetano and there's kind of
Speaker 1: a struggle that we don't see, and then a shot
Speaker 1: is fired in Olivia like you know, jucks for cover,
Speaker 1: and when she comes back up, she basically sees that
Speaker 1: Gaetano has Elliott like with a gun to his head,
Speaker 1: and they're both screaming like.
Speaker 3: Drop your weapon, shoot him, drop your wepon, shoot him.
Speaker 3: It's like really really intense, and I don't know what
Speaker 3: I would do. I mean I would probably just cry
Speaker 3: or so, I don't know.
Speaker 1: So there's a full standoff happening in this final act
Speaker 1: of the episode. It's just like Olivia is trying to
Speaker 1: talk Victor down, but you know, he's like this full sociopath,
Speaker 1: so he's lying.
Speaker 3: He's like, I killed Rebecca. Oh no, wait, just kidding,
Speaker 3: she might still be alive.
Speaker 1: I think I left her in a van in Newark,
Speaker 1: like you guys can go find her, like you know,
Speaker 1: he's giving them all these lies, but you can tell
Speaker 1: he's getting spooped because like the Eludaimon, Phillips is doing
Speaker 1: a lot of like really good facial acting where he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: actually you know, and you can kind of he's not
Speaker 1: like the most cool, calm serial killer of all time,
Speaker 1: Like he's definitely realizes he's being closed in on because
Speaker 1: he knows there's backup coming, and he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of taunting Olivia, like you better take me out
Speaker 1: in one shot.
Speaker 3: My reflexes are pretty good.
Speaker 1: I could shoot your partner before I go down, like
Speaker 1: all this stuff, and then at one point he goes, uh,
Speaker 1: but yeah, try it. Definitely, it'll probably turn out great.
Speaker 1: And I thought that was really funny. I was like,
Speaker 1: look at this funny serial killer. He just had a
Speaker 1: little bit of comedy.
Speaker 2: And Stabler is so annoying in this scene that I'm
Speaker 2: on the side of the killer.
Speaker 3: It's like it's too much. He's screaming at Ben. Yeah,
Speaker 3: he just keeps going shoot him. It's like it's a lot.
Speaker 1: So they totally realize he's lying about the girl like that,
Speaker 1: I mean they think pretty much that he's killed her,
Speaker 1: and they're just Ellie and Olivia are just making like intense,
Speaker 1: prolonged eye contact for a lot of this standoff, and
Speaker 1: then Olivia says I'm.
Speaker 3: Sorry at one point or sorry, and I can't tell.
Speaker 1: If it's because she's about to shoot him or because
Speaker 1: she's refusing to shoot him.
Speaker 3: And then suddenly, out of nowhere, a sniper like blows.
Speaker 1: Gaetano's face off, Like a guy from the NYPD comes
Speaker 1: in from the side quiet and has just you know,
Speaker 1: suspect down.
Speaker 3: What if it was a cop from Italy just visiting,
Speaker 3: just helping.
Speaker 1: Sorry, because they trade people, yeah, you know, they send
Speaker 1: their man in Rome over there and all that. So yeah,
Speaker 1: a member of the Carabinieri from Rome shoots guy Dona's
Speaker 1: face off, and then Elliott and Olivia are just kind
Speaker 1: of standing there staring at each other. It's really intense,
Speaker 1: Like the other cops are moving in kind of to
Speaker 1: assess the scene, and these two are just staring at
Speaker 1: each other.
Speaker 3: And then suddenly they hear like something faint off in
Speaker 3: the distant.
Speaker 1: Elliot's like, everybody be quiet, and they can kind of
Speaker 1: hear a child's crying, whining and so they investigate in
Speaker 1: the warehouse, they find Rebecca in a crate.
Speaker 3: She's alive.
Speaker 1: So that's like the small silver lining on this horrific
Speaker 1: episode of crime.
Speaker 2: I'm also acting like so annoyed, but it's only because
Speaker 2: I've seen this episode dozens of times and it is
Speaker 2: a really intense, scary scene. If you don't know what's
Speaker 2: going to happen, Yes, you know, you're like Stabler, your
Speaker 2: fucking mouth, Benson know what's up. But then you're like Benson,
Speaker 2: he like lou Diamond Phillips is you know, he's a lunatic.
Speaker 3: He'll kill all of you like it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a very intense, awesome scene. I understand
Speaker 2: why Neil Bhaer loves it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's really I mean, this episode fully
Speaker 1: tests their relationship the whole time. So at the hospital
Speaker 1: we find out that Rebecca's okay, Like, because they were
Speaker 1: on the run so much, he didn't really have much
Speaker 1: time to inflict any physical injury on her, so she's
Speaker 1: actually pretty okay. Besides the trauma of about her whole
Speaker 1: family being fucking killed.
Speaker 3: She's not okay, but she's physically okay.
Speaker 1: She will never be okay, right, and Ellie and Olivia
Speaker 1: are kind of having a heart to hear and she
Speaker 1: and He's like, I know you would have taken the
Speaker 1: shot and she's like, no, I wouldn't have, Like you
Speaker 1: expect me to cause your death to take you away
Speaker 1: from your children and your wife, like and then she
Speaker 1: says what about me? Like the idea of living without
Speaker 1: Stabler is so unthinkable to her, Like how could I
Speaker 1: possibly have ended your life or been part of that?
Speaker 1: And he's like, well, we both chose each other over
Speaker 1: the job, and we can't let that happen again or
Speaker 1: we can't be partners. And he's like, you and this
Speaker 1: job are the only things I've gotten anymore, and I
Speaker 1: don't want to wreck that. So final button of the
Speaker 1: episode is Olivia goes into Craigan's office and he's like,
Speaker 1: what's up live, and she's like, I want a new
Speaker 1: partner and Dick, Well, it's really a nutty episode because
Speaker 1: do you think they want you to think that Stabler.
Speaker 3: Is the one that's going to call off the partnership?
Speaker 1: But really it's like Olivia, like, I think she realizes
Speaker 1: how much he is meaning.
Speaker 2: To her, But what's the next episode? This isn't before,
Speaker 2: like because they don't switch off partner. No, what happens
Speaker 2: he has a new partner. He teams up with a
Speaker 2: new partner to investiato sexual. It's called Fat.
Speaker 3: Yes, okay.
Speaker 2: Fat is a really funny episode, and Anthony Anderson is
Speaker 2: like a dick and a brute, and Craigan pairs them
Speaker 2: up so Stabler can learn what it's like to work
Speaker 2: with someone that doesn't know how to follow the rules.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I believe also this coincided with her taking
Speaker 1: a pregnancy leave.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, because I was also gonna say, I don't
Speaker 2: know why I said this episode so funny. I always
Speaker 2: was fine with it. But the actress Rooney Mara has
Speaker 2: talked shit about.
Speaker 3: Being on SVU and this episode. She's just been like
Speaker 3: she's just been like that episode was fucking stupid, Like
Speaker 3: she just didn't her dad like.
Speaker 1: Owns the Giants and she's a billionaire. He's like the
Speaker 1: page like each parent owns an NFLT. Yeah, I'm sure
Speaker 1: she's like, why did I bother doing one episode of
Speaker 1: episodic television? Like who caresn't she with somebody like terrible
Speaker 1: right now?
Speaker 3: Like yeah, walking Phoenix, Syla buff Oh No, yeah, walking.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's take a quick break, any break, and then
Speaker 1: Lisa will take us through the true crime.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back. This crime is bad and the criminal
Speaker 2: is bad. And I don't know if this is good
Speaker 2: news or not. But he did just actually die March
Speaker 2: twenty ninth, twenty twenty one.
Speaker 3: He died of brain cancer in jail.
Speaker 2: So you know, if you want to pop a champagne
Speaker 2: glass while you listen to the rest of this, maybe
Speaker 2: you'll be happy. He did have like he got charged
Speaker 2: and convicted of with like ten life sentences and ten
Speaker 2: death penalties, like he was gonna die in prison no
Speaker 2: matter what. And I don't know whatever. It's brain cancer.
Speaker 2: So Lou Diamond Phillips character is based on Joseph Edward Duncan.
Speaker 2: And what's wild is they made Lou Diamond Phillips character
Speaker 2: have three names too. There is a lot of similarities.
Speaker 1: A lot of serial killers have three names because you
Speaker 1: don't want to you don't want to mix them up
Speaker 1: with someone else.
Speaker 3: Oh is that what it is? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Because like if there was like another serial code named
Speaker 1: Lisa Traeger, like when you want it to be like
Speaker 1: Liza Mercedes Trager or.
Speaker 3: Something like that. So that it's like, that's not me,
Speaker 3: that I'm my middle name. Wow.
Speaker 2: They do it on purpose, so it's not like John
Speaker 2: Wayne Gacy goes by John Wayne Gacy.
Speaker 1: They were just like yeah, because Joseph Duncan, you got
Speaker 1: to think is a pretty kind of easy name. I
Speaker 1: think one of the only people that isn't is like
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy isn't. Jeffrey Dahmer isn't. But a lot of
Speaker 1: serial killers go by three names.
Speaker 2: That is really cool. I like learning that information you
Speaker 2: can always learn. Should I stop going by three names?
Speaker 3: Oh? That is one of my favorite trends on Twitter.
Speaker 2: Like when we all hate someone and then someone has
Speaker 2: to be like, I'm a different Mike Pence, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's not me, and they all interact with each other
Speaker 2: being like, oh, I got it bad, so I enjoy it.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like do you remember when Becky with the Good Hair
Speaker 1: thing came out and everybody was confusing Rachel Ray with
Speaker 1: Rachel Roy. Yes, and everybody was sending Rachel Roy like
Speaker 1: they were like putting bees in all of her Instagram.
Speaker 1: It's like, that's not that's Rachel Ray.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 2: So this takes place in Cordelaine Idaho. I don't know
Speaker 2: if I'm saying it right. I spelled it phonetically so
Speaker 2: I wouldn't fuck it up. And then it still looks insane.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Curdalaane I think is what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cordelaine, Cordlino, Idaho, Idaho, Idaho, not Ohio potatoes, Okay.
Speaker 3: So it's a town.
Speaker 2: You know, no one fucking lives in an, Idaho, So
Speaker 2: it's a chill place. There's fishing vacations. It's not a
Speaker 2: bustling metropolis. So it's a calm town. And then May sixteenth,
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, the most brutal crime in the area.
Speaker 3: That has ever happened happened.
Speaker 2: It was a Monday afternoon and Robert Hollinsworth calls the
Speaker 2: cops and he's just a man walking in the neighborhood
Speaker 2: and walks to his neighbor's house and there's blood stains
Speaker 2: all over the front door.
Speaker 3: So he calls the police.
Speaker 2: And it is a small town, so the cop is like, well,
Speaker 2: I know that family, and so he goes over there
Speaker 2: and he sees the blood in the front door. So
Speaker 2: he walks around and in the back there's also blood
Speaker 2: on the back door and the back doors propped open
Speaker 2: a little bit, so we obviously know something fucked up
Speaker 2: is happening, and he calls for backup immediately. And so
Speaker 2: the house is Brenda Grony and she lives with her
Speaker 2: boyfriend Mark McKenzie and there and her three kids, so
Speaker 2: he is also stepdad. Like in the episode of SVU.
Speaker 2: The three kids are Slate is thirteen, Dylan is nine,
Speaker 2: and Shasta is eight, and these are very like nineties
Speaker 2: fun names.
Speaker 3: I really enjoy it. I wish I didn't, since horrific
Speaker 3: things are about to happen.
Speaker 2: So after backup comes all the cops, they enter the
Speaker 2: house and they find a young female and male face
Speaker 2: down and bound with their hands behind their back, and
Speaker 2: then their heads were mutilated. So these people were a
Speaker 2: bludgeoned multiple times in the head and it's just very
Speaker 2: severe head trauma. There were three bodies and they were
Speaker 2: organized head to toe, so it's like an open square
Speaker 2: with a gap missing. I don't know if you need
Speaker 2: to know the positioning of the bodies, but they were
Speaker 2: positioned that way. And there is a third body and
Speaker 2: unfortunately that is thirteen year old Slade, So we have
Speaker 2: thirteen year old Slade mom stepdad are all bludgeoned and dead,
Speaker 2: and there's blood stains everywhere in the house, like every room,
Speaker 2: every wall, there's just blood fucking everywhere. There was blood
Speaker 2: in the little ones rooms. So the other two kids
Speaker 2: and they but they the cops did start to think
Speaker 2: that the kids had a different fate than the people
Speaker 2: in the living room since they weren't there, like they
Speaker 2: just I don't know if it's optimism, but the young
Speaker 2: kids were nowhere to be found, so you know, they're
Speaker 2: not dead in front of you, so that is a
Speaker 2: good sign. By nightfall, they still couldn't find Shasta or Dylan,
Speaker 2: so they contacted the FBI and the dad. It was
Speaker 2: really sad. He was talking, this is an ID Investigates,
Speaker 2: you know crime show that I watched. In it, he
Speaker 2: was like, it's tough because you're grieving one child, but
Speaker 2: you have to put that all aside to go look
Speaker 2: for another one and be hopeful that your.
Speaker 3: Other kids are alive. So it was just, I'm sure
Speaker 3: it's so many feelings to.
Speaker 1: Juggle, like, and this is the biological dad like Glenn
Speaker 1: in the episode, exactly. Yeah, I'm I'm actually pretty shocked
Speaker 1: how close sview really like grasped onto some of these details.
Speaker 1: Usually it's pretty funky and they've really stuck. They really
Speaker 1: stuck to a lot of key facts of this case.
Speaker 1: So an amber alert goes out no clues. Really, I
Speaker 1: remember this, by the way, like you're living in New
Speaker 1: York City. I remember these two kids being missing. This
Speaker 1: was like on national news. I feel like I remember
Speaker 1: because I remember the name Shasta. I was like, Shasta
Speaker 1: is like such a that is such a nineties name.
Speaker 1: Like I remember these two kids, uh with their and
Speaker 1: I remember their names like that, they were everywhere.
Speaker 3: I do not remember it.
Speaker 2: Does it did go international since like they just couldn't
Speaker 2: find them for so long and it was so brutal,
Speaker 2: but damn not international. It went national, but they just
Speaker 2: had a really hard time with the case. There was
Speaker 2: no witnesses, fingerprints, weapons, like nothing, so they had to
Speaker 2: spend their time learning about the victims and work outward
Speaker 2: because there was no evidence left behind. So the background
Speaker 2: on the family is Brendan Mark dated seven years great relationship.
Speaker 2: Mark had a manufacturing job in Spokane, which is forty
Speaker 2: miles away, and Brenda gave up her cleaning business to
Speaker 2: stay at home and they were known to be partiers.
Speaker 2: They loved a good time, and he loved the kids,
Speaker 2: and so yeah, they were just like family people who
Speaker 2: loved to party.
Speaker 3: I bet we would be on vacation with them in
Speaker 3: Palm Springs.
Speaker 2: The crime was so violent that they assumed it was
Speaker 2: someone that knew the family and had a lot of
Speaker 2: anger towards these people, but confused about the kidnapping, like
Speaker 2: why wouldn't you snatch the kids when they're walking home
Speaker 2: from school or going to the store to get candy,
Speaker 2: Like why are you killing parents and taking kids? There's
Speaker 2: lots of easier ways to snatch kids. Stay tuned, I'll
Speaker 2: teach you how, Okay. So they were like it has
Speaker 2: to be personal for sure. So they had to rule
Speaker 2: the dad out, and that's Steve, and they had a
Speaker 2: hard time getting along post divorce in terms of like
Speaker 2: custody or real estate. But I mean, like most crime
Speaker 2: movies shows real life cases, you have to exclude like
Speaker 2: the husband, the father, like everyone that's close to it.
Speaker 3: And so what made people suspicious of the dad was
Speaker 3: he was.
Speaker 2: On television and he made a wild statement like a
Speaker 2: plea to the killer, and was like they had nothing
Speaker 2: to do with this. Leave them alone and bring them
Speaker 2: home safely. And so everyone's like, have to do with what, bitch?
Speaker 3: Yeah, what does that mean? Yeah?
Speaker 2: So everyone just like assumed he you know, maybe he
Speaker 2: owed money. I don't know, but they're like, what the
Speaker 2: fuck are you talking about? And so they gave him
Speaker 2: a polygraph to see if there was weird things. There
Speaker 2: was one moment of weird things with the voice. But
Speaker 2: Ronie's like, I was home alone the night of the murders,
Speaker 2: and they found cell phone and laptop records to prove
Speaker 2: that he was home, so he did have an alibi
Speaker 2: for that. Steven Brenda the biological parents. They also have
Speaker 2: two adult sons, Jesse and Vance, and they've both been
Speaker 2: in a lot.
Speaker 3: They've both been in a lot of trouble.
Speaker 2: They were bad teens, you know, drug users, and Jesse
Speaker 2: had an airtight alibi because he was in jail. So
Speaker 2: that's great news for armed robbery. And then Vance, they
Speaker 2: came away with investigating him that he had no involvement,
Speaker 2: and they felt really confident in that decision. So they
Speaker 2: excluded everyone in the family. Now what did they do?
Speaker 2: So the cops went to the tip So they started
Speaker 2: getting tips about a barbecue before the killings. They were
Speaker 2: trying to see if someone from this barbecue did it
Speaker 2: because there was some drama and there was like a
Speaker 2: little fingerprint on the door that matches one of the
Speaker 2: party guests, and that was Gary young Wood. He did
Speaker 2: have a criminal record, and Jesse the son, the older son,
Speaker 2: said young Wood owed his mom.
Speaker 3: And Mark two thousand dollars. So they're like, okay, is
Speaker 3: this a money thing.
Speaker 2: They tried to find him to interview him, but it
Speaker 2: was really hard to find him, and so they got
Speaker 2: an a warrant to track his cell phone to find him,
Speaker 2: and it was super hard to locate him. And more
Speaker 2: suspicious that right after the murders took place, he took
Speaker 2: off time.
Speaker 3: He like went on vacation to Boise.
Speaker 2: So he's nowhere to be found and they're like, he's
Speaker 2: avoiding us because he knows something. But he had a
Speaker 2: parole officer, and so the parole officer contacted him and
Speaker 2: was like, they're looking for you, bro, and he came
Speaker 2: rushing back to town. Okay, so he wanted to clear
Speaker 2: this up. He said that they.
Speaker 3: Grilled for hours with they grill, Oh, they grilled him
Speaker 3: for hours. This is not about the barber they grilled.
Speaker 3: This is not about the barbecue anymore.
Speaker 2: So they grilled this guy for hours. He denied to
Speaker 2: have anything to do with these murders. He offers to
Speaker 2: take a lie detector test, he passes it, and again
Speaker 2: like so they've cleared everyone and they have to go
Speaker 2: to the more tips tips was maybe it was a
Speaker 2: biker gang situation because the weapon was a hammer, and
Speaker 2: I guess outlaw bikers do hammer jobs, like that's their
Speaker 2: cool way to kill. And and Brenda was really into
Speaker 2: motorcycle so they looked into like what was going on,
Speaker 2: and the biker theory also died out, so.
Speaker 3: A lot of dead ends in this case. They can't
Speaker 3: crack it.
Speaker 2: And now by this time, the blood at the crime
Speaker 2: scene comes back like all of the testing, we have
Speaker 2: our own, Melinda Warner, and none of the blood is
Speaker 2: Shasta or Dylan's. So that's good and that, you know,
Speaker 2: is hopeful that the kids are alive somewhere. But what's
Speaker 2: sad is it was the thirteen year old boys. So
Speaker 2: it was his blood all over, which means that he
Speaker 2: was like injured, bleeding in pain, walking around the house
Speaker 2: and then dropped by his mom to fucking die next
Speaker 2: to her. I mean it's brutal. It's really brutal. So
Speaker 2: like the blood all over was this young child's. So
Speaker 2: it's really sad if you need to take a moment.
Speaker 2: And this isn't like they've already exhausted so many different things.
Speaker 2: And it's only May twentieth at this point, only four
Speaker 2: days after the murder, so they have done a lot
Speaker 2: of work, honestly.
Speaker 3: But there is a twist.
Speaker 2: Toxicology reports say that the parents did weed and meth
Speaker 2: hours before they were killed, so they're like, can this
Speaker 2: be a violent drug gang? So they start looking at
Speaker 2: the local skid head gangs that have been robbing people.
Speaker 2: But none of the theories they had explain the child factor.
Speaker 2: So that's what was so hard. It's like, why wouldn't
Speaker 2: you kill everyone? Why are you taking seth? Like just
Speaker 2: it didn't The case didn't make sense to anyone. Top
Speaker 2: behavior analysis people are having trouble figuring it out.
Speaker 3: It's just not typical because.
Speaker 2: Usually they have like serial killer experts and child abduction
Speaker 2: experts and none of them can kind of figure it out.
Speaker 2: There was also no patterns out there that matched the crime,
Speaker 2: so then why would you take the kids, So it's like,
Speaker 2: is it a ransom? Is it to sell them into slavery?
Speaker 2: And so then they were like, if you find out
Speaker 2: why the children are taken, maybe that'll help us solve
Speaker 2: the crime. By the end of May, there's one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty people working around the clock to solve this crime.
Speaker 2: I mean, people want to fucking solve this crime. A
Speaker 2: local woman comes forward with a new lead. And this
Speaker 2: happens on forensic files all the time, like so many
Speaker 2: cases I think would never ever get solved if it
Speaker 2: wasn't for just like one wild tip. And so it's
Speaker 2: kind of interesting, you know, say something, see something, or
Speaker 2: I'll you know, switch that. But so local woman comes
Speaker 2: forward with a new lead. The night the family was murdered,
Speaker 2: she was traveling between court Alane and Spokane and around
Speaker 2: two am she saw a dark colored vehicle pull off
Speaker 2: just east to the house and there were three men
Speaker 2: and maybe one of them was involved in the crime.
Speaker 2: It didn't seem promising at all, but they were pulled
Speaker 2: over only one mile away from the house, so it's
Speaker 2: like worth investigating. But also like I would never think
Speaker 2: that's a tip, Like you know what I mean, if
Speaker 2: I saw a car in the middle of the night,
Speaker 2: just driving off an exit, Like I don't know if
Speaker 2: I would call and be like, maybe it's this car.
Speaker 3: So it's yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like I saw three guys a mile away from
Speaker 1: where this happened, and they looked weird.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, it is kind of I.
Speaker 2: Mean, I hope to help solve the crime one day,
Speaker 2: or well, I hope no crimes ever happened around me too.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: So another informant calls as an anonymous tipster and was like,
Speaker 2: I think some of my associates I heard them talking
Speaker 2: about burying some bodies in Silver Valley, Idaho. So he
Speaker 2: calls with that and he gives the names of the
Speaker 2: three guys. I don't who cares, Mike, Ray, Ben, Okay,
Speaker 2: these are the guys. The guys like I heard them
Speaker 2: talking about bearing a body. They did all have a
Speaker 2: criminal record, and they drove a car that was similar
Speaker 2: to the one that the lady called in. The cell
Speaker 2: phone activity analysis says that they were in the area
Speaker 2: of the crime scene around the time of the crime.
Speaker 2: So with these guys like, okay, this is it, this
Speaker 2: is it, And so they're setting up surveillance and like
Speaker 2: getting ready to investigate these guys, thinking they've zeroed in
Speaker 2: on who did it, but they get a call two
Speaker 2: am Saturday morning that is earth shattering. FBI agents said
Speaker 2: that a local waitress, Amber Dern, just came back from
Speaker 2: her break and saw new people in her section and
Speaker 2: went there and it was fucking Shasta.
Speaker 3: She recognized Shasta's photo and she.
Speaker 2: Said Shasta had down hands in a prayer position and
Speaker 2: body language just screamed help me. So she went over
Speaker 2: to the table like everything was normal. She took the
Speaker 2: orders and then snuck back into the rest like snuck
Speaker 2: to the back of the restaurant and told the manager
Speaker 2: to call nine one one, And when the squad car
Speaker 2: pulled up, she walked outside and was like, you need
Speaker 2: a call for backup. I am positive that this is
Speaker 2: Shasta and whoever fucking took her. So, I mean, I
Speaker 2: hope Amber got a key to the city because she
Speaker 2: really like handled everything well. She was not the guy
Speaker 2: in the bus terminal making a scene and looking and talking.
Speaker 3: Like she fucking handled Take a note. Take a note
Speaker 3: from this waitress, you little bitch. You gotta act like
Speaker 3: nothing is wrong.
Speaker 2: So they enter cautiously and walk him out to the
Speaker 2: squad car with the no real issues, and then the
Speaker 2: cop grabbed Amber and was like, hey, go sit with
Speaker 2: the girl. And so Amber said that she sat with
Speaker 2: Shasta and that.
Speaker 3: She started to cry and so and how long is
Speaker 3: she She's been with this man for two months now? Yeah?
Speaker 6: Wow?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so Shasta's rushed to the hospital and Steve,
Speaker 2: the biological father, reunites with his daughter. So now they
Speaker 2: have Joseph Edward Duncan in custody. He's from North Dakota
Speaker 2: and they just they just start interrogating him, and this
Speaker 2: is like so crazy. He's a level three sex offender
Speaker 2: and a fugitive from an old molestation case from Minnesota.
Speaker 2: His first sex crime occurred in nineteen seventy eight when
Speaker 2: he was fifteen years old, and at that point he
Speaker 2: already admitted to raping like thirteen boys. So he was
Speaker 2: like a fucking full on rapist by fifteen. And then
Speaker 2: two years later, in nineteen eighty, he got sent to
Speaker 2: prison in Kansas City from molesting a teenage boy and
Speaker 2: there he was diagnosed a sexual psychopath and he had
Speaker 2: like treatment and psychicals and therapy while there. During those years,
Speaker 2: he committed crimes but he did not confess to them,
Speaker 2: and they were not connected to him until he was
Speaker 2: put in prison for the crimes that he committed against
Speaker 2: the Grody family. So he was committing tons of crimes
Speaker 2: that no one was able to solve. So like then
Speaker 2: when he was finally arrested, all these unsolved crimes were solved.
Speaker 1: So he went to jail in nineteen eighty and he
Speaker 1: stayed in jail for fourteen years and ninety four, and
Speaker 1: then he was released and so, and then he committed
Speaker 1: a bunch of crimes because he got out six years early.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but no one caught him during those times, so
Speaker 2: he was just like living it up until two thousand
Speaker 2: and four. So in two thousand and four, he got
Speaker 2: charged with sexually molesting a six year old boy in Minnesota,
Speaker 2: but Duncan was not ready to go back to jail,
Speaker 2: so he borrowed fifteen grand for bail, and he skipped town.
Speaker 2: The fact that a judge offered this fucking lunatic bail,
Speaker 2: I don't understand it.
Speaker 3: I just don't understand it, Like it's really what the fuck?
Speaker 2: Like, he spent fourteen years in prison, he did it again,
Speaker 2: Why does he get bail?
Speaker 3: I don't understand it. Yeah, So he wrote a.
Speaker 2: Lot of stuff on his web page about like society's
Speaker 2: persecution of sex offenders and that it's not fair the
Speaker 2: way he was treated, and he could have fought the
Speaker 2: case and risked prison, but he just didn't want to,
Speaker 2: so he went on the round to live out his
Speaker 2: ultimate fantasy. And his final blog entry, I just can't
Speaker 2: believe these killers have blogs, So he wrote them right
Speaker 2: before the murders, and in quotes, he writes, I am scared,
Speaker 2: alone and confused, and my reaction is to strike out
Speaker 2: toward the perceived source of my misery, society. My intent
Speaker 2: is to harm society as much as I can and
Speaker 2: then die. So wow, But they're like, where the fuck
Speaker 2: is Dylan? Like we're getting all these theories and things
Speaker 2: from him and his history, but where is Dylan?
Speaker 3: But he invoked his Fifth Amendment rights and did not talk.
Speaker 2: They did find a lot of evidence in the car, shotgun, laptop,
Speaker 2: GPS device, empty package, was ZIP ties that were used,
Speaker 2: and then a microdrive that contained images of the children
Speaker 2: while in captivity. They can't find the murder weapon or
Speaker 2: anything that will lead to the missing boy, and they
Speaker 2: ran out of options.
Speaker 3: So they had to.
Speaker 2: Turn to Shasta, and I think they were like trying
Speaker 2: to spare her from like reliving all this, but they
Speaker 2: had to interview her to get information. And the show
Speaker 2: I was watching use the word haunting, and they said
Speaker 2: what Shasta said was just so fucking haunting, and I
Speaker 2: got excited that they used our word, but sad that
Speaker 2: anyone experienced anything so haunting. So she said that the
Speaker 2: night of the murder, she woke up to her mother
Speaker 2: calling for her, and when she got to the living room,
Speaker 2: she saw Joseph Duncan standing over her family.
Speaker 3: With a shotguh, my god.
Speaker 2: He took the two kids and laid them in the
Speaker 2: backyard because he didn't want them to see what he
Speaker 2: was going to do to their family, because he wanted
Speaker 2: to take them calm, and so it wasn't like to
Speaker 2: spare them the violence. He basically was like, if they
Speaker 2: saw me murder their family, they wouldn't have just gone
Speaker 2: with me. And so he left them in the yard
Speaker 2: tied up while he did that, and then he drove
Speaker 2: ninety five miles away to Saint Regis, Montana, and once
Speaker 2: there he sexually assaults both of them. They spent six
Speaker 2: weeks in captivity, and then he took Dylan into a
Speaker 2: un abandoned cabin, tortured him, lested him, and then shoots
Speaker 2: Dylan in the head in front of Shasta and burns
Speaker 2: the boy's body.
Speaker 3: Jesus.
Speaker 2: He said he spared Shasta's life because he taught her
Speaker 2: how to.
Speaker 3: Love whatever you say, buddy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then one of the talking head authors crime people
Speaker 2: in this special said that she believes he had no
Speaker 2: intention into keeping her alive and he just fucked up
Speaker 2: with the diner and she's lucky to be alive, and
Speaker 2: he would have never kept her alive.
Speaker 1: So I don't thank god that waitress. Thank God for
Speaker 1: that waitress.
Speaker 2: Yeah. They did find the remains of Dylan where Shasta
Speaker 2: said the murder took place. They confront Duncan with all
Speaker 2: the evidence, and he finally confesses he left Minnesota to
Speaker 2: not go back to jail and was just driving looking
Speaker 2: for targets and he like by chance saw their house
Speaker 2: and saw Shasta and Dylan playing in the house around
Speaker 2: the house and was like, that's that's my person. Spent
Speaker 2: the next day and a half checking out the house.
Speaker 2: He brought the weapon, like he tried to commit the
Speaker 2: perfect crime, and it took you know, days of planning,
Speaker 2: but it was like a random family. He entered through
Speaker 2: an unlocked door while Brenda was asleep in the living room.
Speaker 2: He turned the weapon on her and said, where is
Speaker 2: the man of the house, and instructed her to lead
Speaker 2: him to the man of the house put zip ties
Speaker 2: on Mark. He wanted them to think it's a robbery
Speaker 2: because if he let them know that he wanted to
Speaker 2: take the kids, they would have fought him harder. So
Speaker 2: he is he is smart, unfortunately, and so he played
Speaker 2: it like a robbery, so they like didn't fight him
Speaker 2: to protect the children. So we still don't know, like
Speaker 2: why he went to that diner and went back to
Speaker 2: the town that Some say it's like because he ran
Speaker 2: out of money. Some say that Shasta did befriend him,
Speaker 2: and like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like why would you go back to It's back
Speaker 1: in Courtelaine, like that's like begging to be caught.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really confusing why he did it. And then
Speaker 2: he just pled guilty to three counts of kidnapping and
Speaker 2: three counts of murder and received six life sentences and
Speaker 2: so yeah, it's good he pled guilty because Shasta didn't
Speaker 2: have to take the stand, and I think everyone was
Speaker 2: trying to protect her. So December third, two thousand and seven,
Speaker 2: he pleads guilty on ten federal charges and he had
Speaker 2: nothing to say, Like his quote is, I have nothing
Speaker 2: to say. And then three years after these horrific crimes,
Speaker 2: he receives three additional life terms plus three death penalties
Speaker 2: and he sent to Terry Hoe, Indiana's prison.
Speaker 1: Those are for like previous crimes that he had not
Speaker 1: been like tried for, but he probably confessed to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in nineteen ninety seven there was a kidnapping
Speaker 2: and murder of Anthony Martinez of Beaumont, California, and he
Speaker 2: confessed to it. And then in nineteen ninety six he
Speaker 2: murdered two girls in Seattle, Washington that he's confessed to
Speaker 2: but wasn't like convicted of.
Speaker 3: It's weird. He's really creepy, looking too, very creepy.
Speaker 2: He looks like what you would think of creep looks
Speaker 2: like and like who to protect your children from.
Speaker 3: And then this is just like a little fact.
Speaker 2: But the jurors were actually offered counseling after the case
Speaker 2: because the evidence was so fucked up. Fuck really, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and there was video evidence of stuff, like he videotaped
Speaker 2: the oh my stuff and so they had to watch it,
Speaker 2: and so a lot of the jurors needed help with
Speaker 2: their mental stability.
Speaker 1: It's so crazy that this happened in two thousand and
Speaker 1: five because it just feels like a nineteen seventies or
Speaker 1: eighties kidnapping or something just that he got away. There
Speaker 1: was like no evidence like cell phone stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: Like it just feels like a very old school type
Speaker 1: of horrific serial killer crime.
Speaker 2: And then in a new school way, but like the
Speaker 2: way these crimes were connected that led authorities to connect
Speaker 2: to previous crimes was bloggers, Like bloggers found similarities between
Speaker 2: other crimes at these times, and like it is like
Speaker 2: what are cops for that? Bloggers, waitresses, like all of
Speaker 2: these random people are doing your work.
Speaker 1: But then if you watch like the Cecil Hotel documentary,
Speaker 1: you're like, sometimes bloggers are fucking stupid and they get
Speaker 1: the wrong person and ruin their life. So like, I
Speaker 1: do think bloggers can be good, but they can be bad.
Speaker 3: To watch that one yet, so yeah, this is just
Speaker 3: the rundown. He is dead and wishing all the best
Speaker 3: to Shasta.
Speaker 1: It's almost not fair that he died like so early.
Speaker 1: He could have I would have liked him and Jil
Speaker 1: for like another thirty years. And she's probably god like
Speaker 1: in her twenties now, huh, poor Shasta.
Speaker 3: All right, well, I hope she's moving on with hope
Speaker 3: and love.
Speaker 7: This episode comes out today is May eighteenth, and this
Speaker 7: crime happened May fifteenth, two thousand and five, So that's
Speaker 7: the sixteen year anniversary of her Famili's her first three
Speaker 7: families death.
Speaker 1: Jeez, another tough one. What am we gonna get a
Speaker 1: fun murder?
Speaker 3: Lisa?
Speaker 2: Well, we got one person mad about the microchips? Did
Speaker 2: you see that message?
Speaker 3: She goes, I'm very disappointed you guys didn't cover a crime.
Speaker 3: I just needed to let you know that, oh, one person.
Speaker 3: I didn't even see that.
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, if you want to end
Speaker 4: this episode on a fun note, you can mention that
Speaker 4: after the episode, Sugar, you said you had never heard
Speaker 4: the name Vance in real life, and this story, Lisa,
Speaker 4: there was an older brother named Vance.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, Okay, that is a fun ending.
Speaker 2: Vance and I hope the Vans, I hope, yeah, I
Speaker 2: hope the boys are good.
Speaker 3: And you know, she did get to be with her dad.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's rough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like she at least has some surviving family and
Speaker 1: hopefully like she has her brothers.
Speaker 3: It's just scary.
Speaker 2: I mean not to ruin the movie The Strangers for everyone,
Speaker 2: but that horror movie is really scary because it was
Speaker 2: just like random. Yeah, the randomness of it is scary.
Speaker 2: Like that's some killer from Minnesota.
Speaker 3: Yeah, can escape from court.
Speaker 2: And drive to Idah see your kid and be like
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill you guys two days from that.
Speaker 1: Like it is haunting, Yeah, and I think that's what
Speaker 1: they try to you know. Also highlight in the episode
Speaker 1: is that everybody that got Toano killed was a stranger.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like these were personal people he got close to.
Speaker 1: He just like stalked and hunted people.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: It's really fucking scary. But let's take a quick moment
Speaker 1: and hear from our very special guests.
Speaker 2: I am so excited for this guest it truly. I
Speaker 2: think when I found out, I jumped up and down.
Speaker 3: Huge. Guess guys.
Speaker 1: He is a Golden Globe and Tony Award nominee. He
Speaker 1: famously played Richie Vallens in La Bamba, one of my
Speaker 1: formative movies as a child. He's currently playing Lieutenant Gilroyo
Speaker 1: on Fox's Prodigal Son, and you, if you did your homework,
Speaker 1: sadly recognize him as Victor Paul Gaetano. Guys, check out
Speaker 1: our interview with the one and only lou Diamond Phillips.
Speaker 3: We are so excited, and we need to tell you.
Speaker 2: All of our friends that we told that we're interviewing
Speaker 2: you lost their fucking minds. Like people were like, our
Speaker 2: friend who's Filipino, was like, he is the King of
Speaker 2: the Philippines. And then two of our friends are like,
Speaker 2: we watched Little Bamba every single day on HBO for years.
Speaker 2: Like everyone was like, was so excited, and so are we,
Speaker 2: So we're yeah, we're pops.
Speaker 5: So all my interviews yesterday were about the fact that
Speaker 5: Fathom was putting Lebamba back in the movie theaters.
Speaker 6: Oh ridiculous.
Speaker 5: So so yeah, I did a bunch of interviews yesterday
Speaker 5: with you know, writer director Louis Valdez. That man, that
Speaker 5: was That was a lovely little trip down memory lane.
Speaker 3: I mean that's where I first knew you.
Speaker 1: That movie came out when I was a kid, and
Speaker 1: I loved it so much, So We're so honored to
Speaker 1: talk to you. And this episode is classic of SVU.
Speaker 1: I know it was a long time ago. No worries
Speaker 1: if you forget some stuff from you know, from the
Speaker 1: shooting time of Fault.
Speaker 2: The show runner Neil Bear, when we asked his favorite
Speaker 2: and or most haunting episodes, he said, this one.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's you know, it's it's pretty intense.
Speaker 6: I mean, that's a lot for SVU, you know.
Speaker 5: I know, one of my favorite stories about that particular
Speaker 5: episode was was I said, yes, Sight Unseen.
Speaker 6: I didn't even read the script because I'm a fan
Speaker 6: of the show.
Speaker 5: I've been a fan of the show, you know, since
Speaker 5: its inception. I've also known Marishka Man since the late eighties.
Speaker 6: She did a tiny, little.
Speaker 5: Independent film that a lot of my friends were involved with,
Speaker 5: so you know, I met her at the screening of
Speaker 5: that way back in the day.
Speaker 6: So we kind of ran in the same circles for
Speaker 6: a long time.
Speaker 5: So it came to me and it's like, yes, one
Speaker 5: hundred percent, I will do this whatever, I don't care.
Speaker 6: And so you're the bad guy. I said, well, come on,
Speaker 6: I figure, you know.
Speaker 5: And my daughter Grace was eight nine at the time,
Speaker 5: or whatever, and I remember I said, I listened, Dad's
Speaker 5: got to go, you know, to New York City next
Speaker 5: week to do this show. And she said, what show
Speaker 5: are you doing? I said, well, I'm doing STU.
Speaker 6: She can I watch it?
Speaker 3: I don't think so.
Speaker 5: We didn't let her watch SVU anyway, and it was like, no, no,
Speaker 5: you can't. You can't watch this episode, Grace. Are you
Speaker 5: the bad guy? And I'm like, yeah, I'm the bad guy.
Speaker 8: She goes, do you kill people? I said, yes, I
Speaker 8: kill people. I've seen you kill people. I said, not
Speaker 8: like this, so yeah, you.
Speaker 6: Know, serial killer, pedophile. That's that's a good way to
Speaker 6: have on the old resume.
Speaker 1: Seriously, man, well what I was going to say is
Speaker 1: so interesting about you. I don't know if you can
Speaker 1: speak to this, but like, you've played Richard Ramirez, You've
Speaker 1: played this terrible victor Paul Gaetano, the serial killer in
Speaker 1: this episode, but then in a lot of other stuff
Speaker 1: you play the cop, you play the good guy, And
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of actors get pigeonholed into
Speaker 1: one or the other, and you kind of seamlessly can
Speaker 1: be like evil or the hero. Like, what do you
Speaker 1: think that is about you?
Speaker 3: They don't care that it's because you're talented.
Speaker 6: That's a good an.
Speaker 1: There's plenty of talented people that always play the cop
Speaker 1: or always play the murderer, you know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. I've been fortunate. I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, I literally I have to go back to
Speaker 5: theater training, you know, and not just the theater training,
Speaker 5: but the appetite that theater training gave me for roles.
Speaker 5: Where I from a very early age.
Speaker 6: I thought I don't want to play just one thing,
Speaker 6: you know, and.
Speaker 5: There are many many actors who are famous for doing
Speaker 5: one thing and they're very very good at it.
Speaker 6: You know, that's what they do, that's their brand. And
Speaker 6: you know, I mean not not to mench anybody contemporary,
Speaker 6: but you know, you're John Wayne, Japlin Eastwood's.
Speaker 5: You know, they are personalities, they're iconic, and people love
Speaker 5: them so much that they don't want to get out
Speaker 5: of that lane. For me, I always consider myself a
Speaker 5: character actor. Uh. And thank goodness being you know that
Speaker 5: that translated into being the character lead.
Speaker 6: But it meant that I could do you know, a
Speaker 6: lot of different kinds of roles. Uh. And you know,
Speaker 6: in college, I was you.
Speaker 5: Know, doing everything from from Mamick to Shakespeare to Moliere
Speaker 5: to improv comedy and hopefully honing talent and.
Speaker 6: All of it, you know.
Speaker 5: So so that's why when you look at my, you know,
Speaker 5: body of work.
Speaker 6: You just go what or Western comedy drama and you.
Speaker 5: Knowsles you know that takes a very special kind of talent.
Speaker 5: Uh And so you know, I just enjoyed the genre
Speaker 5: of employment more than anything else. Uh So yeah, But
Speaker 5: I mean it's because I love characters. I love creating characters,
Speaker 5: and I and I you know, apply a few different rules,
Speaker 5: you know. I mean, you cannot judge your character, and
Speaker 5: you know, and especially in a situation like this, if
Speaker 5: you hold that character at arms distance, if you're trying
Speaker 5: to tell the audience constantly, if you're apologizing to the
Speaker 5: audience going this isn't me, I'm just I'm acting, then
Speaker 5: you lessen the impact on them. It's not fair. It's
Speaker 5: not fair to the character, it's not fair.
Speaker 6: To the audience.
Speaker 5: So you know, when you take a job like this,
Speaker 5: it is your job to scare the shit out of people.
Speaker 6: You have to be brutal.
Speaker 5: And what's interesting, because you mentioned this, I literally look
Speaker 5: at Gatano as the amused Boosch to Richard Ramirez, although
Speaker 5: I didn't know it at the time.
Speaker 3: Oh interesting.
Speaker 5: And what was I think really informative for me and
Speaker 5: that I carried from this particular experience was was Paul
Speaker 5: mccrane's direction. And it's like, make this guy boring, killing
Speaker 5: people and draining a child's blood and all of that
Speaker 5: is so mundane to you. And in that normalcy, in
Speaker 5: that apparent I don't know, homogenization of a killer mind,
Speaker 5: you know, that's what's frightening. And that the little video
Speaker 5: clip that we did, you know, where he's describing how
Speaker 5: much yeah, came out of the body. He went, no, no,
Speaker 5: less less bland, bland, And it was amazing, you know,
Speaker 5: it was amazing. It was. And when I ended up
Speaker 5: doing the research for Richard Ramirez and watching him talk
Speaker 5: about being a Satan worshiper.
Speaker 6: And all this other stuff, you know, he said, you know,
Speaker 6: this is just so boring.
Speaker 5: You know, he's just talking about it like he's talking
Speaker 5: about the weather, you know, and it's.
Speaker 6: Just like wow.
Speaker 5: And that's chilling more than growling and more than streaming
Speaker 5: and yelling. It's that that the fact that that that
Speaker 5: mind is already there that they don't have to flip
Speaker 5: the switch.
Speaker 6: This is where they live.
Speaker 2: And were you able to find empathy and understanding with
Speaker 2: that character to play him or that's not necessary because
Speaker 2: you said you have to connect with them, like do
Speaker 2: you have to trick yourself into liking him?
Speaker 3: Or you can hate him and play him.
Speaker 6: I can hate him. I can absolutely hate him. I mean,
Speaker 6: you know, being being the.
Speaker 5: Father of four daughters somebody like that. I'm sorry, I
Speaker 5: have very little sympathy. Uh you know, I mean because
Speaker 5: because they ceased to become human, you know.
Speaker 6: Uh, And there wasn't a big backstory.
Speaker 5: Having said that, though, in doing the research for Richard Ramirez,
Speaker 5: I go, how else could he have turned out?
Speaker 6: How else could he have turned out? The book by
Speaker 6: Philip Cakudo, The.
Speaker 5: Nightstalker is brilliant and so you know, illuminative of you know,
Speaker 5: how he was built from a very very early age
Speaker 5: and that includes the possibility of chemical alteration because both
Speaker 5: his parents worked in a boot factory where they were
Speaker 5: dealing with toxic materials day in.
Speaker 6: And day out for hours at a time.
Speaker 5: So you know, that's that's one that he he suffered
Speaker 5: a head injury at a very early age, and then
Speaker 5: all the sociological influences on him, and you know from
Speaker 5: an uncle who came back in Vietnam and it was
Speaker 5: an absolute monster himself. Yeah, and sexualized photographs, souvenirs that
Speaker 5: he took, and so therefore once again taking the humanity
Speaker 5: out of that, and you know, and just just this sad,
Speaker 5: sad state of wanting to be somebody, wanting to be powerful,
Speaker 5: being so empty inside that the only way you know,
Speaker 5: you could do that was was to exert power and
Speaker 5: violence over someone helpless.
Speaker 2: You know, did you film at the bus station? How
Speaker 2: was it filming with so many people? And were those
Speaker 2: extras or were they really people? At the bus station?
Speaker 3: It was just so crowded.
Speaker 1: It's like a huge I mean, you're weaving through a
Speaker 1: million crowds and like it's really.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, it's it's it's really really cool.
Speaker 5: And you know, I mean, and this is the advantage
Speaker 5: of being on a hit show is they have a budget,
Speaker 5: you know, so they you know, uh, And at the
Speaker 5: time I had I hadn't worked in New York since
Speaker 5: I've done you know, The King and I but I
Speaker 5: have this love of New York and and and filming in.
Speaker 6: New York, like what I'm going through right now on
Speaker 6: Fludigal Sonny. You just look at and yeah, you know,
Speaker 6: this is this is it.
Speaker 5: And here we are in this bus station and they
Speaker 5: can close off a certain area and we had a
Speaker 5: number a number of background artists, but within those background artists,
Speaker 5: we had quite a few stunt performers, so that you
Speaker 5: could run over somebody or knocking anybody and if you did,
Speaker 5: it wasn't a big deal because they're expecting it.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't even think about that, because yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of places where when you run, you're knocking
Speaker 1: people out of the way.
Speaker 3: Maloney's like out of the way to all these civilians.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that those would be stunt people because
Speaker 1: they've got a like.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they have to be because next next thing, you know,
Speaker 5: the you know, the background artists bump.
Speaker 6: You know, I got paid a little bit more.
Speaker 5: So those are you know, those are those are definitely
Speaker 5: part of the film crew.
Speaker 6: But beyond that, they can't shut down the entire area,
Speaker 6: and so you know, it's it's.
Speaker 5: Always a little fun to, uh, you know, watch a
Speaker 5: big crowd scene in someplace like Times Square because you
Speaker 5: can look in the background and say, okay, civilians, civilians,
Speaker 5: civilian because they're staring at the.
Speaker 6: Camera watching things go on.
Speaker 5: Right, So, so yes, there were a number of background
Speaker 5: artists and stunt performers.
Speaker 6: But you know in the deep background, those are those.
Speaker 5: Are real people going about their business and going, oh,
Speaker 5: you're shooting again.
Speaker 2: Since you have like a theater background and you've been
Speaker 2: working for so long and a fan of SVW, I
Speaker 2: was wondering if any of your friends have been on
Speaker 2: episodes or there's any episodes that stick out to you
Speaker 2: that you've seen and that you really like.
Speaker 1: Wow, because everybody's son SVU.
Speaker 6: Right, No, that's just it. I mean you go down
Speaker 6: the list of people and it's just it's just crazy,
Speaker 6: wacky good.
Speaker 5: Charlne Woodard, who you know, in the first season of
Speaker 5: Prodigal Son, played Malcolm's therapist.
Speaker 6: Speaking of theater and the and the inner of that.
Speaker 5: You know, she was ended up getting killed, But I
Speaker 5: had a lovely sort of recurring role as a sort
Speaker 5: of a street social worker, you know.
Speaker 6: And Charlene and I had done a play together ages
Speaker 6: and Ages ago at the La Joy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Charlene Woodard, we had done The Good Person of
Speaker 5: Sasuan in a new translation by Tony Kushner, and we
Speaker 5: almost got to New York did it?
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's Sister Peg.
Speaker 1: We literally do a segment every single week on our
Speaker 1: podcast where we say what would Sister Peg do?
Speaker 3: And we mentioned like a.
Speaker 1: Charity or like an organization because her character is so
Speaker 1: iconic on the show.
Speaker 6: Exactly, and she's amazing, she is that she is just
Speaker 6: this beautiful light, a wonderful human being.
Speaker 1: Can I we asked you a question a little bit
Speaker 1: more asked for you questions. So you got to work
Speaker 1: with these little kids, but like you're this terrifying character,
Speaker 1: so like in between takes or you like goofing around
Speaker 1: with these kids being like I'm not a bad guy,
Speaker 1: or are you like so that they.
Speaker 5: No, no, you know, it's it's interesting. You have to
Speaker 5: trust the person that you're working with. It has to
Speaker 5: be a dance. And so these kids could not have performed. Uh,
Speaker 5: they wouldn't even let me pick them up, you know,
Speaker 5: if they were afraid of me. So it's about and
Speaker 5: and and having just met them that day, you're hanging
Speaker 5: out and you're making jokes and you're talking and saying, hey,
Speaker 5: what what are you interested in and you know, and
Speaker 5: and and becoming friends because it's like, okay, so on
Speaker 5: this take, I'm gonna pick you up and I'm gonna
Speaker 5: run with you, and I'm gonna be looking really really
Speaker 5: really mean, but I'm just acting, you know. So it's
Speaker 5: it's you know, it's it's necessary to to engender that
Speaker 5: level of trust because otherwise they're going to be stiff
Speaker 5: as a board and not and not be able to
Speaker 5: actually act with you.
Speaker 3: And how was it stabbing Marishka in the.
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 5: The other the other amazing detail to to the filming,
Speaker 5: the behind the scenes stuff, as you know, if you
Speaker 5: look at it closely, I.
Speaker 6: Mean, Risk is pregnant.
Speaker 5: She's shooting this and she's yeah, so they're they're you know,
Speaker 5: they're they're shooting her really tight and from behind and
Speaker 5: you know, the very very few profiles man, because they
Speaker 5: can't reveal that she's actually pregnant.
Speaker 6: And so for me, I'm like, oh, that one more
Speaker 6: twist here. I got to be so careful because.
Speaker 5: She's you know, so it's like, uh, it was very
Speaker 5: funny and she was such a sweetheart man, so game,
Speaker 5: so you know, just and then you know, I got
Speaker 5: to hold a gun to to Maloney's head.
Speaker 3: You know, you really have the dream role.
Speaker 1: I mean, you got to assault both of the main
Speaker 1: characters and then.
Speaker 6: Get shot in the head myself. So it's like a
Speaker 6: dream come true. So h and then you know, you
Speaker 6: just do the whole drill.
Speaker 5: But once again, it's it's the uh, the trust, you know,
Speaker 5: and and Musky and Maloney could not do.
Speaker 6: Those roles without without being you know, incredibly game for
Speaker 6: for right that comes along.
Speaker 5: And so I mean I'm literally pressing this gun into
Speaker 5: Chris's you know, temple and say no.
Speaker 6: Man, go ahead, good good, good dimple in here.
Speaker 5: You know, it's like, okay, you know, if you're cool
Speaker 5: with it, you know, I'll bring it.
Speaker 2: I don't have an SV related, but I was just
Speaker 2: going to ask about what you're writing and working on now.
Speaker 6: Ah yay, thank you.
Speaker 5: Uh And and you know, I mean speaking of well,
Speaker 5: not speaking of but you know, the pandemic actually having
Speaker 5: a silver lining.
Speaker 6: I had been working on a novel for ten years.
Speaker 6: When my wife and I first got together.
Speaker 5: She was reading a lot of my writing, you know,
Speaker 5: and I've written screenplays and plays and that sort of thing.
Speaker 5: And she is an amazing artist, and she showed me
Speaker 5: these drawings that were supposed to be for a graphic
Speaker 5: novel that were inspired from Hans Christian Anderson's The Tinderbox Uh.
Speaker 5: And so I looked at these and, oh my god,
Speaker 5: this is like this post apocalyptic Kurosawa infused fairytale a
Speaker 5: little like Star Wars, and I thought this would.
Speaker 6: Make a great movie. Let's do this.
Speaker 5: And she loved the idea too, so I wrote the screenplay.
Speaker 5: When we read the screenplay, we realized that nobody was
Speaker 5: going to give us millions and millions of dollars to
Speaker 5: make this movie. So talk to my manager about it.
Speaker 5: He loved the idea, he says, well, write the novel, you.
Speaker 6: Know, but my day job kept getting in the way,
Speaker 6: and so it took about.
Speaker 5: Ten years and then it stole like the November before
Speaker 5: the pandemic hit. The plug got pulled on Prodigal Son
Speaker 5: in March, and so I was able to do the
Speaker 5: final edits in the agent's notes and publisher's notes and
Speaker 5: you know, editor's.
Speaker 6: Notes while I was sitting at home, which was great.
Speaker 5: And The Tinderbox Soldier of Indira just got released last
Speaker 5: last November, and it has thirty illustrations from my wife, Yvonne,
Speaker 5: which are sort of amazing. But it's funny. As I
Speaker 5: was writing the novels, she was like, I don't draw
Speaker 5: sci fi. Why, you know, a movie when she's said
Speaker 5: in a space she was cool with it, but as
Speaker 5: a novel she's like, I don't.
Speaker 6: Draw site, I don't space ship, I don't draw you know.
Speaker 5: But she got out of her comfort zone and she
Speaker 5: she really Uh, the illustrations are beautiful because they're they're
Speaker 5: sort of graphic novel meets German woodcut, which is her background,
Speaker 5: uh meets you know, a retro steampunk sci fi, you know,
Speaker 5: and so they're really really cool.
Speaker 3: Holy shit.
Speaker 2: Lou Diamond Phillips a multifaceted man. I mean, I can't
Speaker 2: believe it. Yeah, actor writer sing Whols is adopted by
Speaker 2: different races.
Speaker 1: I know, I don't know if we we didn't even
Speaker 1: talk about this with him, but he's been officially accepted
Speaker 1: into like an indigenous tribe's he's been officially recognized by
Speaker 1: like the Latino community, like he is literally he's Filipino.
Speaker 2: But he's a man of all of all people. Everyone
Speaker 2: wants him in their group. Yeah, the king and I
Speaker 2: mean he's he's attractive, he's writing books. It seems you know,
Speaker 2: he seems like an attentive father. Yeah, he's awesome. But
Speaker 2: let's jump into our post mortem. What did we learn
Speaker 2: from this horrible episode?
Speaker 3: And I learned a lesson from him? You know.
Speaker 2: What I learned from him is like, like you take
Speaker 2: every job type of thing you like, expand your horizons,
Speaker 2: you play different types of characters and skills, and like,
Speaker 2: I just enjoyed the way he talked about his career
Speaker 2: in life and how you have to just like go
Speaker 2: along for the ride and then you can last thirty
Speaker 2: forty years having a good time.
Speaker 3: And I, you know, I enjoy hearing inspirational stories.
Speaker 2: Like that because sometimes you audition for things for years
Speaker 2: and you just don't get stuff.
Speaker 3: So it's like nice to hear someone be like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you just do stuff right.
Speaker 2: And if you don't do that, you go direct to
Speaker 2: play or you go act there, or you go on
Speaker 2: the road, I don't know where. You get adopted by
Speaker 2: the Cherokees, like it's wild. But I also what I
Speaker 2: learned from the episode is like you gotta go to therapy,
Speaker 2: stable or go to therapy.
Speaker 3: How many more times can you talk about this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't be in a relationship, a close work
Speaker 1: relationship and a romantic relationship, any kind of relationship with
Speaker 1: the kind of anger and weird crap that he carries
Speaker 1: around with him. You got to go to therapy. And
Speaker 1: you know what, Huang is busy. Huang cannot be your therapist.
Speaker 1: He is on FBI profiler and psychiatrys, psychologist whatever.
Speaker 3: Too busy.
Speaker 2: So if you're helping the police in an undercover investigation,
Speaker 2: play it cool.
Speaker 1: I will never forgive that Western Union man. I think
Speaker 1: he's responsible for that child's death. Keep your eyes peeled,
Speaker 1: like that waitress saved Shasta Grony's life.
Speaker 3: Like, keep your eyes peeled. If you see amber alerts, look.
Speaker 1: At them and like because like, honestly, that woman, her
Speaker 1: egle eye is like the reason that girl is alive
Speaker 1: and the reason that guy was arrested.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Also, if you are in charge of the criminal justice system,
Speaker 2: let's not let people skip down on Bay. Like, I
Speaker 2: don't know if someone's just like a full on killer, like,
Speaker 2: keep them in jail. I don't understand. Yeah, I just
Speaker 2: don't understand the veil system when it comes to white
Speaker 2: men who kill.
Speaker 3: But oh yeah, because the real life man was white.
Speaker 4: Right. Yeah, I learned if an actress is pregnant, you
Speaker 4: can just zoom it on their face and not show
Speaker 4: their body ever in an episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean most people that Karen and I meet on
Speaker 2: our zooms have no idea Kara is about to pop.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just keep it tight, shoulders up, baby. Yeah, it's
Speaker 3: just also cool.
Speaker 2: It's also like if you watch TV and you're like,
Speaker 2: oh no, why is that actor not there anymore? It's
Speaker 2: like it was a contract issue or they had a baby.
Speaker 2: You know, Like it is wild that there's just things
Speaker 2: outside of the story that push the story.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of cool.
Speaker 2: If you're in a standoff, I don't also like give up,
Speaker 2: a sharp.
Speaker 3: Shooter will shoot you, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like these people holding people hostage and the thing I
Speaker 2: know they're not doing well mentally, but like.
Speaker 3: You're gonna get shot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not surviving holding two police officers hostage, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like, right, I just don't understand.
Speaker 2: Stop taking people hostage. That's my tip of the day.
Speaker 2: It's not worth it. Why do you want to go
Speaker 2: to jail? Stop holding people hostage?
Speaker 3: Don't do it. That's that's a lot of lessons. That's
Speaker 3: pretty good lot of lessons, a lot of lessons for today.
Speaker 1: Now let's jump into our what would Sister Peg do segment?
Speaker 1: This is where you guys know, where we kind of
Speaker 1: direct you towards an organization, a resource, something to kind
Speaker 1: of give you more info on one of the topics
Speaker 1: we covered today. I mean, we honestly were just the
Speaker 1: whole time that Lisa was doing telling us about this
Speaker 1: true crime, thinking about poor Shasta and like rebuilding your
Speaker 1: life after so much tragedy and trauma. So we today
Speaker 1: are gonna shout out the National Center for Victims of Crime,
Speaker 1: which is Victims of Crime dot org. They are a
Speaker 1: nonprofit that advocates for victims' rights. They trained professionals who
Speaker 1: work with victims, and they're just a trusted source of
Speaker 1: information for victims issues. So go check them out. And yeah, and.
Speaker 2: Kara, you know, I am very passionate about this, learning
Speaker 2: all this through the podcast. I am like, we need
Speaker 2: to help people after they've.
Speaker 3: Gone through traumatic things.
Speaker 2: They're not going to act normal when abnormal things happen
Speaker 2: to them. And we have to stop judging people that
Speaker 2: are doing destructive things with their life. Because they are
Speaker 2: they could be healing from a horrific event in their lives.
Speaker 2: So I'm just really grateful for this pot. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm learning to so I'm happy about that. And next
Speaker 2: week we're going to be watching glasgow Man's Wrath. We've
Speaker 2: heard your requests and we are fulfilling them. It's season sixteen,
Speaker 2: episode six. Join us in this woodsy episode on Hulu
Speaker 2: or Peacock go to the local library. We had a
Speaker 2: librarian message us and she liked the shout out.
Speaker 1: Somebody also just requested this episode yesterday and it's like
Speaker 1: we're on it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, where we listen. We do what we what you do,
Speaker 3: We do what you tell us. See you guys next week.
Speaker 3: Bye bye. That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: at That's Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to SBU super fan and our
Speaker 2: incredible producer, Hannah Kyle Kragon.
Speaker 1: And to our sound engineer and personal hero, Analie Snilson.
Speaker 3: And to Henry Koperski for our theme song, to.
Speaker 1: Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thanks to our executive
Speaker 1: producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kogariff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at
Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 2: Listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher,
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Speaker 3: Done