1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:05,279 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 2: There are just lots of ways this kind of thing 3 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: is attractive and sort of turns on people's like wants me. 4 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 5 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 6 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 7 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 8 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 9 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 10 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 11 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 12 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 13 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. This week on Wicked Words, 14 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: the popular former president of Ghana was once accused of 15 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: hiding gold from the West African country's government, but it 16 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: turns out that he was targeted by an audacious con 17 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: artist who pulled off one of the twentieth century's longest 18 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: running and most spectacular frauds. Author yupoke Eboat tells me 19 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: the story in her book and Nancy's gold. So let's 20 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: start with Ghana's positions. So what's the difference economically between 21 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: Ghana's position as a colony of Britain and Ghana's position 22 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: in independence And maybe just kind of in this time 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: span where this stuff really starts to happen, does this 24 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: independence lift up the lower classes? 25 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:58,919 Speaker 2: A colony, Ghana was basically being stripped the pops, okay, 26 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: and so any infrastructure there was was basically designed around 27 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: getting resources from wherever they're being like mined or cut 28 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: down to a port where they can be taken away. 29 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: Around the time of independence, and this was because Britain 30 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 2: had suffered so much destruction during the Second War and 31 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: the economy shaky, the British took out a bunch of 32 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: gold that was extensibly garners and promise to like invest 33 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: in and this was basically gold used to shore up 34 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: the pound. And the idea was that on independence the 35 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: government would be able to like take back these investments 36 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 2: that would have appreciated and used this money to build 37 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 2: the country because after being stripped parts and after all 38 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: the wars that had occurred to create colonization, after all 39 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: the wars against the British and other like colonizing forces 40 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: and invading courses. There was very little left, if that 41 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: makes any sense. It's really really evocatively about like looking 42 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: up and just see how much there was to be built, 43 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: seeing like nothing, going all the way up to the horizon, 44 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: and realizing what a task it would be to build 45 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 2: a nation. And so and this was one of the 46 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 2: like thornier parts of my research. The story that everybody 47 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: was told that was in the papers around independence was 48 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: there was a psychash of money that would be coming 49 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: to Garner and that would be used to build the nation. 50 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: When I went to figure out what exactly had happened 51 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: some money, like what was spent on what did it build? 52 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: I found a great big, weird question mark. There was 53 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: just no reporting on it, and there'd be maybe like 54 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: references to it. But then by the time I come around, 55 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 2: like I think people said when I was like a 56 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: kid learning about this, was that there was all this 57 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: money as independence and it had been fritted away somehow. 58 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: But I went looking and it turned out that the 59 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: British had taken this money and this like obscure branch 60 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: of like colonial administration had invested it so spectacularly horribly 61 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: that they lost tens of billions for multiple accounts, and 62 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 2: so even the money that was supposed to build up 63 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: this new nation wasn't there. So what really ended up 64 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: happening was the first government burd a ton of money 65 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: and also went into agreements with lots of different countries 66 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 2: to build stuff. Famously across in Bodaan, which still provides 67 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: a whole bunch of power to like not Stanner, but 68 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: like neighboring countries, was built in there was this great 69 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 2: big plug of war between actions and the Americans to 70 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: build this. It was with situation where in Kruma would 71 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: kind of manipulate Cold War tensions to get better results 72 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: for Ganner. 73 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: So we're starting with, I mean, just sort of government 74 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: maneuvering and already scams to begin with. So why don't 75 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: we start with the person who wanted to be president. 76 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: Will you tell me a little bit about Kwamie and 77 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: how he comes into this sort of from the beginning, 78 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,679 Speaker 1: is it from the beginning of independence? Is he somebody 79 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: who steps up or do people nominate him or what 80 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: is that? 81 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 2: And what is he like we ended up getting into government? 82 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: Was he was just like a vocal figure who got 83 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: thrown into jail by the British for agitating too much 84 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: while he was in jail, he was voted into a 85 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 2: government and so they had to let him out of 86 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 2: jail the same day. And like fromant power. Before that, 87 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: he had been like student and an activist, so he 88 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 2: actually went to university in Pennsylvania. He briefly went to 89 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: the University of Pennsylvania as well. He was from like 90 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: a very modest background and was considered right and enterprising. 91 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 2: He ultimately found like a way to pay his way 92 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: and help and went to university in the United States 93 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: and the rich Britain. In this entire time he was 94 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 2: involved in like anti colonial movements. Like the officers he 95 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: worked out in London would regularly be like torn up 96 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: by the security services and go to the police and 97 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: they'd be completely unsurprised to hear that they'd been ransacked. 98 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 2: What was going on? And after studying in London, he 99 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:29,679 Speaker 2: returned to Ghanner and like educating for independence, and also 100 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 2: the attempts to assassinate him began. Well at one point 101 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: I tried to count, and I couldn't keep up because 102 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: there were so many and I could only go by 103 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 2: what was reported. And several more before he even became 104 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 2: like a known politician, so massively simplify it. By independence, 105 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: there's like a coalition of people who would run Gunner's 106 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: first government, and he becomes the leader of this. So 107 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: he eventually becomes Houston, and he's seeing a figure even 108 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 2: even before he becomes present, because like is that it's 109 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 2: the first one of the first nations in Africa to 110 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: become independent, and he is like the figurehead for this. 111 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: Whose picture of him on the like time with like 112 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: a really fraught article about whether it was even viable 113 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: to give these nations that one of their own countries, 114 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 2: And wherever he went people would block to him. So 115 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: especially after he became like leader, he like did the 116 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: visit to the United States and at one point in 117 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: his car was just going from the airport to the 118 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: hotel in Chicago, and the streets were absolutely thronged with 119 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: people just trying to catch a glimpse of them. 120 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: So we have this country. Is he considered sort of 121 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: objectively right now, a good honest politician. 122 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: Generally he is known to be like good honest. He 123 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 2: lives very very frugly, like people labiship with gifts, and 124 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: I'm interested by him. He's like like when he went 125 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 2: on the tour of the United States, people would give 126 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: me these massive, massive dinners. At one point he was like, 127 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: I would just make a burger. 128 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: What is the motivation behind assassination attempts on his life? 129 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: I mean, what is the main purpose of it? Is 130 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: it from other countries or from inside? 131 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: It is from the countries who like initially just didn't 132 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: want black people to run their own country because it 133 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: was a threat to the way the world worked. It 134 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 2: was a bad message to all the other countries that 135 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 2: were colonized that they could perhaps not be But also 136 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: it was from the inside. It was from other people 137 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: who wanted to meet other people from the inside who 138 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: thought maybe it wasn't time for independence. Like there were 139 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 2: lots of different things going on in the background that 140 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: led to people trying to blow him up over the years, 141 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: and then yeah, I think this just kind of changed 142 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: as time went on. He would as this got worse 143 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 2: and worse, increasingly sort of become bunk good and separated 144 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 2: from people. Especially after one assassination attempt, which horribly harbably 145 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: injured a little girl who was by the side of 146 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: the road huming and flowers. He famously went to visitor 147 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 2: in hospital and just like sat by her bedside and wept. 148 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: I think he was motivated by a number of things, 149 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 2: but the main things seemed to be building Ganna into 150 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: a nation that kind of stood on its own, A 151 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 2: very basic thing, and it shouldn't have to be said. 152 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: He's kind of your hero? Is he the best person? 153 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: Do you? 154 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: I sometimes think about that in my books? Who's the 155 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: best person really in this book? Is he sort of 156 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: the highlight of your book? As far as somebody who 157 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: has character and integrity? 158 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 2: There are few more people, but he's up there. Okay, 159 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: rarely because like the whole scam wouldhinge on him not 160 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 2: being a good person, not him not being the best person. 161 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: How long was he president and what did he accomplish? 162 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: And however much time that was. 163 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: So he went into power in nineteen fifty seven, and 164 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: then in nineteen sixty Gana became a republic and he 165 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: became presidant and the queu was in nineteen sixty six. 166 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: So this is a very short period of time, Like 167 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: it's not enough time to build an entire nation. 168 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: But he made progress, I'm assuming was he what. 169 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: Was he doing? He made pretty spectacular progress. There were 170 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 2: huge infrastructure projects like Yukosimbdam. There were like roads, there 171 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 2: were ports, those electricity spreading in a grid around the nation, 172 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: and there were like lots and lots of other projects 173 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 2: that would become iconic because as soon as the coup happened, 174 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: they kind of failed, like huge factories that would like 175 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: fallow for bees and years after that feel kind of 176 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: like a testament to how much he was able to 177 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: do and how much hinged on being runned by a 178 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 2: leader who had the best interest in the nation at heart, 179 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 2: rather than by people who just wanted to be in charge. 180 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 2: I guess that's the nice Yeah. 181 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: What were the resources in Ghana? I mean we hear 182 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: about Ukraine and their minerals and you know, China holding 183 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: back on certain minerals and stuff. What were the is 184 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: it diamonds? What was Ghana's resource that was so important? 185 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: Chana used to be called the Gold Coast, huge ancient 186 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 2: historic stores of gold and master minds diamonds. Aluminium was 187 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,959 Speaker 2: a huge one. There was oil as well, and then 188 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: lots of other natural resources like timber and very very 189 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: vercile arable land you could grow stuff on, so gigantic 190 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: plantations and stuff like that. Yeah, it's a very vital 191 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 2: country in a way that can become like us. 192 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: You go from being a colony of Britain, where basically 193 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: the British are taking advantage of these resources, to then 194 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: becoming a republic and having all kinds of unscrupulous people. 195 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: Except ironically, the president saw me. So tell me kind 196 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: of step by step what happens. It sounds like, so 197 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: you said, nineteen sixty is when he became president, Is 198 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: that right? 199 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 2: Yeah? Before that he was like prime minister. 200 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: Okay, So he was president between sixty nineteen sixty and 201 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six when the coup happened, right, Yeah, And 202 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: he's making lots of progress. People are trying to kill him. 203 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: It's not working. Inexplicably, you would think one of those 204 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: would work, And so at some point it sounds like 205 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: somebody is figuring out that there has to be another 206 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: way to get rid of him. 207 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: There are like spectacular numbers of attempts to get rid 208 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: of him. It's kind of like all the stories about 209 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: how they were trying to kill Castro. Yeah, just like 210 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: Danny's scheme. During this period as well, there was a 211 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: lot of economic instability, especially during the second part of 212 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: the period, because it costs a lot of money to 213 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 2: build a country for nothing, and so that helped sort 214 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 2: of stoke whats of sentiment against him, and so all 215 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: the attempts to undermine him and kill him come by, 216 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 2: and with rising instability in the sentiment kind of led 217 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 2: to untenable amount of attempts to kill him. And so 218 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 2: he put in place laws that were designed to lock 219 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 2: away the people who were undermining him and attempting to 220 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: kill him. And a lot of these people were people 221 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: in government, and a lot a few of these people 222 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 2: were very very prominent members of not just members of 223 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: the government, but like founding fathers of Garner. And he 224 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: also ended up tearing a lot of people in jail 225 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: for straight up corruption. These would be the people who 226 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: would like line up around John Appleboy Mazer and legitimize 227 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 2: these plains about ing Kruma. 228 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: So we have all of these sort of political opponents 229 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: or people who he thought were on his side, and 230 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: he's having to jail them. What is the next step 231 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: to actually kicking him out of office? I know that 232 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: you had mentioned that there was a sconding of gold, 233 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: lots of gold right at what the tire is what 234 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: happens next. Essentially, once he's arrested all of these people, 235 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: it starts to. 236 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: Get more and more unstable mild attempts until there is 237 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: this coup. There's not really absconding of gold. That kind 238 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 2: of factors in a bit later, but it's mostly just 239 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 2: there's like a coalition of like police officers and military 240 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: officers who were backed by the CIA, who staged this credator. 241 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: Tell me about that. What does the CIA have anything 242 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: to do with any of it? 243 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: Obviously America is a global power that doesn't love being 244 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 2: constantly pitted against the East. Obviously this is during the 245 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 2: Cold War and in Kuma was not really a communist, 246 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: but he had socialist ideas that made it easy to 247 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: say that he was. And so there were increasing fears 248 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: that he would basically turn Africa red. 249 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: But he's never said that. I mean he's socialist leanings. 250 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: Did he have that people knew publicly where they started 251 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: really thinking communist like. 252 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 2: He was like in his youth a member of a 253 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: communist platty. 254 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: No would do it, but he but he this was 255 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: not something that he you know, was subscribing to as 256 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: an adult and certainly as a politician. 257 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 2: No, his main thing about like regional powers, was building 258 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 2: Africa into like one big block of regional power, and 259 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 2: he basically lean towards like the East when they could 260 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 2: provide like resources and expertise and also just could be 261 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: played against the Americans to get a better deal when 262 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: like building infrastructure, that kind of thing, okay, and so 263 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: like that didn't stop concerns about it. And there's like 264 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 2: a spectacular quote that I will pull up when I 265 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: have a second Eisenhower quote about how dangerous they considered 266 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: in Krima to be. 267 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering when they say commune in the east, 268 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: are we talking about China? Who was Ghana's biggest sort 269 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: of supporter backup plan. 270 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: We're talking about Russia. We're talking about China, and we're 271 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: talking about East Germany as well, basically like the entire 272 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: Soviet Union, and like when the Kudota happened, Kremer was 273 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: actually on his way to China. So he was encouraging 274 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: investment from and ex that's from like basically the entire 275 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: fosside of the talent war. 276 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: So was this was this a trend for him? He 277 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: just thought they were a great resource or did this 278 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: just pop up in the last few years had already happened. 279 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 2: Okay, Like this was a trend, and so there was. 280 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: There were also lots of connections, like lots of people 281 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: would go to the Union to like go to school, 282 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: and so there are a lot of like connections between 283 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: those countries and Ghana to begin with. And he just 284 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 2: didn't discourage them. 285 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: And I think that was enough to get the CIA involved, 286 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: right and. 287 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: To get like them concerned. And this is like layered 288 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 2: over the general like he is left okay, it is 289 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 2: like he is trying to free like a nation that 290 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 2: was colonized. 291 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: Tell me about the coup. This is a military right operation. 292 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: What actually happened, like physically, what happens when this happens. 293 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: I didn't know where to begin. There are spectacular pictures 294 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: of his offices being ransacked. President in Krima's statue being 295 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: torn down. His family wakes up to a commotion and 296 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 2: like they find out there's been a Q data they 297 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: have to leave their homes immediately. There is basically a 298 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 2: spectacular amount of chaos and planets considering that President Krima 299 00:17:53,359 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 2: was not actually physically like in Ghana and no, it's 300 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: over immediately after a handful of the people that got 301 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 2: shown in jail by in Cremer's administration give bess conferences 302 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 2: where they say that the president and Krimer had like 303 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 2: gold toilets and a home in every African capital, the 304 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: girlfriend in every port. They say he stole millions upon 305 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: millions from Gada and like hid it away. There was 306 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: always like a fuscl amount of stuff being said about 307 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 2: how in Cremer lived, considering everybody was pretty aware that 308 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 2: he lived simply. But the important thing is that like 309 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 2: once everything filtered down to like New York Times or 310 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: Jet magazine, it was just stories about how he's got 311 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: He brought his girlfriend a Ford bun bird and had 312 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 2: gold taps in his house and was living ludshly. The 313 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 2: people have Ghana stuff. 314 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: So he was framed as corrupt. So this was a 315 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: justified coup. And then you have the military installed right 316 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: for leading the country. How do you then pivot from 317 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: this man? Who where is he living now? What did 318 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: he end up doing? 319 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: So he eventually moves to Guinea. He's like honorary co 320 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 2: president of Skinny and he lives in this old house. 321 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 2: By the sequel, they were silly and it's got a 322 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 2: really like a leaky roof, yes, and move his bed 323 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: when it rains. He's insisting on like sardine sent by 324 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 2: his former secretary from London. 325 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: Where's his wife? 326 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: His wife who was addition and his children with her. 327 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 2: He has other children as well. They go to eat 328 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 2: back to Egypt where she's from, and they have that's 329 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 2: for a few is. 330 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, are they divorced or is this just stay you 331 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: need to stay safe? Yeah, Okay, that's sad. 332 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 2: He basically just has like a couple of loyal people 333 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: around him, like like his bodyguards, like one of his nephews. 334 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 2: People constantly go to visit him. However, and he writes 335 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 2: extensively and does like radio broadcasts. 336 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: He has to be denying everything. 337 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: He actually doesn't really address it was radio broadcasting more 338 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 2: about the same stuff he wrote about like the entire time, 339 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: like while he was an activist, while he was a politician. 340 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 2: He wrote about liberating Africa. He wrote about how foreign 341 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 2: companies sort of persisted in colonizing Africa as like colonizing 342 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 2: countries dropped off, and how like resources were still being 343 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: extracted in very obvious ways, and about what would have 344 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 2: to happen for people to be like truly liberated he was. 345 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: He seemed unconcerned about what was said about him and 346 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 2: more concerned about the mission. 347 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: Sounds like a civil rights leader. Frankly, yeah, yeah, yeahah, 348 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: tell me how we pivot then too, this scam, How 349 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: does this work? That involves you know, the bulk of 350 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: your book, which is the gold part of this. So 351 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: what is his involvement with all of the scam? 352 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 2: So that's the thing. The scam doesn't really exist until 353 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: he dies in nineteen seventy two. Okay, it basically can't 354 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 2: exist until he dies. In nineteen seventy two, he had 355 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 2: been diagnosed with cancer, and so he traveled to Romania 356 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 2: for treatment. That's w that's where he died. Probably also 357 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 2: important to say that, like you lived very modestly, he 358 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 2: had a very modest swill. It's basically just like the 359 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: royalties from his books going to his family, that kind 360 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 2: of thing. The news of the death, like traveling around 361 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: the world, is what slugs the first iteration of this scam, 362 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 2: and say in Philadelphia, John Akawaymeser has been jailed or 363 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: deslotting an innkeeper. He basically ran the same thing in 364 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 2: a bunch of country years before he got to Billy. 365 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: But he would check into a hotel, live it up, 366 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 2: instruct the hotel to build the local Guardian embassy, like 367 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 2: he'd be like a doctor working for the UN, or 368 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: he'd be like another kind of politician, and then he'd 369 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: like to skip out. The hotel would attempt to build 370 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 2: a Guardian embassy and they'd be like, re check on 371 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 2: ID what we're talking about. And so he had done this, 372 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 2: he'd like checked into the Belvy Shafford hotel, had a 373 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 2: great time, run up a substantial bill, and when the 374 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 2: hotel tried to build the embassy in Washington, they were like, 375 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: this is not someone working for us. 376 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: How many times did he do this scam? 377 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 2: I found thee examples of this, but there were stories 378 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: about him doing it more frequently, like there were cables 379 00:22:55,119 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 2: between American posts around Africa being like aware this man, 380 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 2: this scan is happening. The Guardian Anthroplomatic service also had 381 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 2: to send a warning out like if this man attempts 382 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: to build your mission, he's do not indulge him. He's 383 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 2: been doing this everywhere. So he did it a bunch 384 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 2: of times. And then when in Kromer died, John Ackablamasus 385 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: saw his opportunity and he told like a prison chaplain 386 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: that he had been really tight with Kroumer, And he 387 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: tells like parallel stories. The most important one is that 388 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: he was a nephew or confidant of President In Kromer 389 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 2: m and In Kromer had on his deathbed told him 390 00:23:54,359 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 2: this great secret and given him this great responsibility. And 391 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: the secret was that he had indeed like hidden away 392 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: all this money, gold, diamonds, prescious things in so spanks, 393 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 2: and that he had not been stealing these resources. He 394 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 2: had been saving them for the people who had been 395 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 2: trying to kill him like all along, all the people 396 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: he knew with stage a Coudeton on seat him, and 397 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 2: that it was responsibility to get this money and return 398 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 2: it to the people of Donner. And in the meantime, 399 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: this is money scold diamonds had been invested so well 400 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 2: that they were like massively increasing in value all the time. 401 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 2: And so by the time it was through, he would 402 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: have enough to return like the lion share to the 403 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 2: people of Donner. But then what was left he could 404 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 2: use to reward the people who had helped him get through, 405 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,959 Speaker 2: like the administrator pops of getting the money out so 406 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 2: he could reward them with like returns like ten to one? 407 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: Is this a Ponzi scheme? Is that how you would 408 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: describe this, where he's probably paying some people back but 409 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: then taking money and paying them back with that money, 410 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: or yeah. 411 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: He like I can only find like a handful of 412 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 2: examples when people have gotten the money back, and it 413 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 2: was usually because they'd made a colossal fuff one investor 414 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: in that he just sat in the offices and refused 415 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 2: to leave until he got his money back. 416 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: Good for him. 417 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: An there was like an older lady from Philly who 418 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 2: said that Robert Ellis was the man you had become. 419 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: Blomzer's like collaborator had treated her like a like a grandmother, 420 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: where she wasn't being treated by her actual family. So 421 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 2: she put her life savings in and obviously never got 422 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 2: her return and she got her money back. I think 423 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 2: maybe else did have a saucepot for her. 424 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: What kind of money are we talking about ultimately? And 425 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: how long does this scam last? 426 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 2: This scam starts in Erneston nineteen seventy four, and basically 427 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 2: I would say fizzles in nineteen eighty eight. 428 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: Oh my god, fourteen years. 429 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. When I was reshoting the book, there were still 430 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 2: people pulling versions of the same scam, not like the 431 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 2: structure of the scam, the actual Saan scam. Well. Yeah, 432 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 2: and to this day people will debate whether or not 433 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: Blaemas's claims were true. 434 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: But there have to be actual investigators who have looked 435 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: into this. And this is millions I'm assuming what was 436 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: the total take in? 437 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: Do you know? It was impossible to come up with 438 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 2: a total just because the scam was spread al over 439 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 2: the world. They were investors in the UK and Germany 440 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: and Japan, South Korea. But when it was investigated in 441 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: Philadelphia in the nineteen eighties, they've found three hundred million 442 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 2: dollars have been put in. Yeah, and they found dozens 443 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 2: and dozens of people who had invested. 444 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: What sort of proof was offered to these people from 445 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: blame Meser? I mean, are their contracts? Did these show photos? 446 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: Did he have photos of golden diamonds? I mean, how 447 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: do you prove any of this if you are this camera? 448 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: There was sort of layer legitimacy. One was that blame 449 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 2: Maser presented himself as wildly diplomat like, he dressed fantastically, 450 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 2: he lives also very lavishly. He was basically a legitimate 451 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 2: businessman who had just come upon this mission by dint 452 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 2: of his association with a cryner. Yeah, an actual job. 453 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: He was department businessman. And then he surrounded himself with 454 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: lots of people who had worked with President and Creamer, 455 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 2: and these were primarily the people who had been jailed 456 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 2: by Increma for corruption and who had held those press conferences, 457 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 2: being that in criminal was obviously corrupt. But he surrounded 458 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 2: himself with elder statesmen who were not ning Krima and 459 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: made the whole thing looking legitimate. And then he managed 460 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 2: to covin a Swiss banker to write a letter. And 461 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: the way the letter was praised was so ambiguous that 462 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 2: it made it seem like this was proof that the 463 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 2: money was actually there. What the banker later said he 464 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 2: meant to say was that we would be willing to 465 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 2: have you as a customer of this bank and hold 466 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 2: this amount of money. But yeah, the way it was 467 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 2: raised was ambiguous that when that letter got turned around, 468 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 2: it was you knows proof And the banker like later 469 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 2: talked to an investigators and that he regretted wting that 470 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: letter and kept coming back to haunt him. And the 471 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 2: final stage proof which any of few like investors actually 472 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: saw was there was a trust document and over these 473 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 2: there were like several different versions of this, but it 474 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 2: was basically like supposed to be the document establishing the trust, 475 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 2: and it was supposed to be written by Kwame and Crima, 476 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: and it was on like official letterhead and it looked 477 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 2: fairly in Egypt initially, but then it misspelled the name 478 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: of one of his children. It listed another child who 479 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: hadn't been born by the date on the document. You 480 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 2: also misspelled the names of like multiple African leaders that 481 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 2: the Crimer was actually very very tight with and if 482 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 2: you don't know much about Donna, probably seemed very legitimate. 483 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 2: And the way it was presented to people, he wouldn't 484 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 2: just like hand out copies of like if you were 485 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 2: in the inner sanctum, you would maybe see it in 486 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 2: a bank volt or somebody would leave a briefcase and 487 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: this would be the one document inside it and you'd 488 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 2: like sneak a peek. It was that kind of thing, Okay, Yeah, 489 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: it wouldn't be presented to people. People would like come 490 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 2: upon it or see it in setting that made it 491 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 2: seem legitimate. 492 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: Did anyone in Ghana invest in this? 493 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: Many people? Yeah? 494 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: No, really yeah, Yeah. 495 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: The most notable one was this businessman named JK. Skill. 496 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 2: He had built like Ghana's first brewery, which was like 497 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 2: a process. The beer industry was incredibly. 498 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: Cutthroat at the time mm hmm. 499 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 2: And then like who could buy equipment for breweries, who 500 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 2: could found breweries, who could even buy buy hops, and 501 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: so he went through all these groups to like build 502 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 2: this epic brewery, and he had all these other businesses, 503 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 2: and he was like a very well regarded businessman, and 504 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 2: he put so much money into this and into like 505 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: propping up by Maser as well. So investors were paying 506 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: for the tel suites and the houses and the cars 507 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: and the parties and that kind of thing. So they 508 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 2: weren't just giving money, they were like running the whole 509 00:30:53,840 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: organization and paying for way to live really spectacularly this 510 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 2: and inadvertently sort of propping up this dam. 511 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: So how does this all come to ahead? Is it 512 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: eighty eight? After fourteen years of this one person. I 513 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: know he had associates, but it was really his, his mastermind, 514 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: you know that that pulled this off what ends up happening. 515 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: So this entire time, he's been telling not just him, 516 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: that his partners as well they've been telling people that 517 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 2: the trust would pay out almost immediately, so they'd be 518 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: taught like weeks months at the most, or there's this 519 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: specific date, and then the date would roll around and 520 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: it wouldn't happen, or and this was a favorite blameasis, 521 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: something would happen that would stop it from all like 522 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 2: being completed, so like he'd blamed like government changes or 523 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 2: military unrest, or like the pound isn't great. And then 524 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties there were a bunch of incidents 525 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: where everybody or the investors would be told to gather 526 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 2: at a hotel like since wand in the Caribbean, and 527 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 2: everybody would turn up and they'd be told like, this 528 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 2: is it. The money is coming, open your accounts, get 529 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: ready to like cut it all away. And then there'd 530 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: be what seemed like a whole flurry of events to 531 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: close it all out, and like huge numbers of bankers 532 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 2: would be rushing from room to room and people would 533 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: like see them, and then blade would sort of disappear 534 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: and it would all fizzle away and nothing would happen. 535 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 2: And then this just happened again and again and again 536 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 2: like a new like how new groups of people and 537 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 2: at this point, the government of Ganna was by the 538 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: nineteen eighties it was a military dictatorship, and this case 539 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 2: ship was sort of propping him up. So they provided 540 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 2: him with like an actual well a kind of diplomatic 541 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 2: passport so he would travel around, but it also legitimized 542 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: the claims that he was stuck on up but this 543 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 2: was real. And also the they also had like the 544 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 2: Minister of Finance appearing at these closings, like tossing up 545 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 2: what was owed to each investor and creating these giant ledgers. 546 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 2: And yeah, it just happened over and and over again, 547 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 2: and people started pulling out, others kind of doubled down. 548 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 2: And then in nineteen eighty eight there was a sixteen 549 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 2: minutes segment. One of the investors was friendly, were really 550 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: friendly with at Bradley, and so told him about what 551 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 2: was going on. And some of the investors thought that 552 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: like this would push blame Maser to finish the hall 553 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 2: up and give them their money, but they'd already tried that. 554 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 2: They'd like helped with the prosecution of Blamemaser's partner in 555 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: Philadelphia and he had been sent to jail, but they 556 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 2: also turned up to wave him off to jail. So 557 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 2: there was this sixteen minute segment which is still available 558 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 2: on the internet, and it's worth with the up blay 559 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 2: Bezer in his finery as a chief because at this 560 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 2: point they had paid to make him a chief holding 561 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 2: court in this like mansion in Saint John's Wood in 562 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 2: London on like a gold dance reproduction chair. At this 563 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: point the government of gone I told him not to 564 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 2: tell the in Creamis story and so he was like 565 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: dodging around, like where did this money come from? What 566 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 2: is it for? That kind of thing. But essentially the 567 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 2: second revealed that like when he was supposed to be 568 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: buying Creamo's dead side when he was dying, he was 569 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 2: actually in Ingridge for prison. It revealed how many people 570 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: were invested in this, and at this point it included 571 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 2: like President Nixon's former Attorney general like John Mitchell. It 572 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 2: made everybody involved look bad and it also made the 573 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 2: becomement of Ghana look incredibly bad. There was a police 574 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 2: officer who had been sent to keep an eye on 575 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 2: Blainaser and he was also the carrier of the diplomatic passport, 576 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 2: so it was never supposed to go into Blamaser's hand, 577 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 2: and he had after a what kind of like disappeared 578 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 2: and nobody was sure what was going on with him, 579 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 2: and then he popped up in the sixteen minutes episode 580 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 2: and it looked like he was working for Blameaser. So yeah, 581 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 2: it made everybody involved look not great. Everybody saw it 582 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 2: tapes a bit like host seed immediately, so it was 583 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 2: like seeing Ghana. It was seeing all over the world. 584 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 2: Pretty immediately, the government of Ghana called blames at home 585 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 2: and put him on house arrest. 586 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: But this is the same government who was funding this. 587 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 2: Also, he was like popping him up and legitimizing his 588 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 2: quaims as well. Not so much funny because that was 589 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: still the investors. But yeah, and it was also like 590 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 2: in the background, the government was transitioning, and so it 591 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 2: was Goodhana was going to become a democracy again. That 592 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,240 Speaker 2: was going to be like elections. So at the same time, 593 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 2: there was this process of like rehabilitating President in Krumer's 594 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 2: image and addressing the claims about him. And so his body, 595 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 2: which had been buried in his village was he was 596 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 2: given like a proper state funeral, which hadn't happened. He'd 597 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 2: just been repatriated and buried in this village and this 598 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 2: great big mausoleum was built in Akra and having Blame's 599 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 2: telling this story about Ko being a massacret just didn't 600 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 2: without anymore. 601 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: So Blameser is not in prison or did not go 602 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: to prison. I'm assuming was there even a trial. 603 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 2: There was finally a grandeuri convened in the States, actually 604 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 2: in I think nineteen nineteen two, they moved to extradite 605 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 2: him and when they sent word to Gunner, they found 606 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 2: out that he had just died. Blameser died in these 607 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 2: really weird circumstances because even now people have conflicting stories 608 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: about how he died, Like some people swear that he 609 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 2: was in Germany getting treatment. Some people swear that he 610 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 2: was cryogenically frozen so that when it came time to 611 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 2: get hold of the money, he could be revived to 612 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 2: do that. A top to a You had been a 613 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 2: reporter at the time, and the media were called to 614 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 2: like Blames's house and told him was very ill and 615 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 2: he needed to leave the country urgently. For years. Like 616 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 2: after he was gotten house rest, Blames tried to like 617 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 2: lead done and he's what he could finish uself and 618 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 2: give everybody his money and apparently that didn't work out. Yeah, 619 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 2: So there were Carto's house and told he was very ill, 620 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 2: but they didn't actually see him at any point, just 621 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 2: people just kick coming out of his room and saying 622 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 2: like he was having massive palpitations. His health was like 623 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 2: a resk. He needed to leave, and after the best 624 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 2: part of the day they left, and then the news 625 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 2: spread that he had died. 626 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: Were how old was he? He would have been in 627 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: his late fifties in ninety two. 628 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, I should double check that, but yeah, do. 629 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: You believe he was dead? 630 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 2: I found evidence that he was said to have died, So, 631 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 2: like I saw the video as his funeral, there was 632 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 2: definitely a body. It was odd, Like the reporter I 633 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 2: expelled to he was like, it was just weird, Like 634 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 2: why wouldn't they allow us see him? And he was like, 635 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 2: you can. You can fake a death. And also just 636 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 2: the fact that a lot of people close to him 637 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 2: had conflicting stories of what had happened. Yeah, and so 638 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 2: while all the evidence apparently points to him having a 639 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 2: lot of people, do not think that was the case? 640 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: Where was all of his money? 641 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 2: That's the other thing nobody knows, He like asked one 642 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,240 Speaker 2: of his closest friends at that point, a man who 643 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 2: in London who had worked with him and flowed him 644 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 2: around the world, like taking video and audio and running 645 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 2: his like technology for him. When he was called back 646 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: to Ganner in nineteen eighty eight, he was like, should 647 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 2: I just go to Brazil and tied out. The man 648 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 2: was a true believer, and he's like, no, just go 649 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 2: to GNA and tell them the truth about this and 650 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 2: they will understand. And then finally like bring this all 651 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: to a head and give everybody their money. That's the 652 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,959 Speaker 2: other thing. Yeah, a lot of good people I spoke 653 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 2: to who had known him directly or worked with him. 654 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 2: We're all still believers in one way or another. 655 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: Even though it's proved that he was not by the 656 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 1: President's bedside when he died. Yeah, I mean his story 657 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: doesn't match. Yeah. 658 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. Some people were like, that's just the way he 659 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 2: had to frame it to get people to understand. Some 660 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 2: people were like, Bradley is lying and that wasn't what 661 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 2: had happened. 662 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: And you still think they're scams, the exact same scam happening. 663 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the most one taking version that I 664 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,399 Speaker 2: came across was that somebody was still targeting people who 665 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 2: had been investors, and obviously they're like older at this point. 666 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 2: And I spoke to someone who dad had been an investor, 667 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 2: who was like they playing him while he was still 668 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 2: in the hospital, and he was lying in his hospital 669 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 2: there like being ranged for money, and he kept putting 670 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 2: money into this like years and years and years and 671 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 2: years after and to the point that when I was 672 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 2: doing this research, it's still still a thing. And yeah, 673 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 2: like every song from the sixty minutes clip will go 674 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 2: viral again in Ghana and people will start debating whether 675 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 2: or not blayemas it was a conman, and whether or 676 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 2: not the story he told about in crime industry. 677 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,919 Speaker 1: To wrap this up, I mean, I think we want 678 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,479 Speaker 1: to bring it back to the victims because I think 679 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: Blair his point of view is very clear. He wanted 680 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: the money. He obviously knew how to scam people. I mean, 681 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: the motivation is not, to me, very mysterious. 682 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 2: And also like when the upside is significant at certain point, 683 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 2: it's like the downside is I lose everything I put in, 684 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 2: but the upside is so ridiculously good, Yeah, that it 685 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 2: kind of carries the whole thing. And one of the 686 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 2: investigators I spoke to said that in the nineteen eighties 687 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 2: there were lots and lots of schemes like this that 688 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 2: actually paid off, Like they paid out, people got their 689 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 2: money back, and it was usually someone wandering money with 690 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 2: a ridiculous story to justify it. Well, there was like 691 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 2: a reason this money would actually turn up, but it 692 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 2: was at a time where financial resgulation was sort of 693 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 2: up in the air and everything's going a bit crazy. 694 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,399 Speaker 2: Sometimes it worked out well. 695 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: I mean it's like, you know, buy a lottery ticket 696 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: or go to Vegas, except you're dealing with tens of 697 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: thousands and hundreds of thousands and maybe millions of dollars 698 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:02,240 Speaker 1: with people. I, as a person suching this decades later, 699 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: had like countless moments where I was. 700 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 2: Like fucked in like this story, the absolutely head exploding 701 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 2: feeling that I got when I was like this kind 702 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 2: is a rich country. Why are the people or where 703 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 2: did all this money go? Yeah, this is this was 704 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 2: like an easy It's like it's bangfault somewhere, Like it 705 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 2: is available, it will come back, people will be saved. 706 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 2: That is incredibly attractive and also just other aspects of 707 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 2: the drama, the international intrigue, like a lot of the 708 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 2: excitement suck you in. I know it's sucked a lot 709 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 2: of the investors in as well. There are just lots 710 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 2: of ways in which this kind of thing is attractive 711 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 2: and sort of terms on people's like wants to me 712 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 2: the point, But like even today there are takers, and 713 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,240 Speaker 2: even today there are people debating the story. Even today 714 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,280 Speaker 2: it's being like written into history. 715 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear this sometimes with the Bernie Madoff story, 716 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: where it's like, I'm really gonna feel sorry for someone 717 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: who has the money to invest two million getting ripped 718 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: off is getting ripped off. I don't care how much 719 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: money you have. But we are also, in your case 720 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: in this story talking about like little old ladies. You're 721 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,359 Speaker 1: talking about people who had just such little money that 722 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: they were really hoping for the big payoffs. So you've 723 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 1: got two different kinds of investors. You've got the ones 724 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: who are naive and don't know and just want a 725 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: better life and are rolling the dice on this, and 726 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: then you've got the people who should have known better 727 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: and they have the millions and they still do it. 728 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 1: And whether that's greed or wanting to be savvy or 729 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: being in on an investment that's exclusive. Who knows but 730 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: I mean I feel badly for everybody. 731 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 2: Yeah that were definitely like investors who were like, I 732 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 2: just consider this it's like a wildcat. Well it like 733 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 2: it might pay off, it might not, it guess. And 734 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 2: then there are other people who's like life plans hinged 735 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 2: on getting this money. 736 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't just invested. 737 00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 2: There are lots of people who like to blame Eier, 738 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 2: Like it looked like a legitimate organization. It had offices 739 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 2: full of people, and his office manager will doing the 740 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 2: actual like admin work, like the people recording his like 741 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,840 Speaker 2: investor meetings. Like all of those people put like labor, 742 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 2: and they put time in, and they put money in, 743 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 2: and lots of those people like lost all of that. 744 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 2: They were never going to get that back. People in 745 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,360 Speaker 2: the end were lost using their houses, their families stopped 746 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 2: talking to them. They put a lot into this because 747 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 2: it seemed so legit and it seemed like the upside 748 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,359 Speaker 2: would excuse all the neglecting of their families and like 749 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 2: traveling around the world that they were doing. And the 750 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,919 Speaker 2: fact that they just wasn't one pretty devastating. 751 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 752 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books. The Sinner's All about the 753 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: Ghost Club, all that is Wicked and American Shrilock, and 754 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: don't forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true 755 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 1: crime podcast, tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed, 756 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already. 757 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer 758 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,360 Speaker 1: is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This 759 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. 760 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen 761 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and 762 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,280 Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold 763 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: More And if you know of a historical crime that 764 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 1: could use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, 765 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: email us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also 766 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 1: take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words