1 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: I am a Yamla. I had a baby daddy relationship. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: I spent time in a relationship with a married man. 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: I had to learn the skills and tools required to 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: make my relationships healthy, fulfilling and loving. Welcome to the 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: r Spot, a production of shandaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. 6 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Our Spot. I am Eyambla, delighted, honored, 7 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: and privileged to be your support, your facilitator, your host, 8 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: your teacher, sometime your adversary, because I want to step 9 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: right up in your world and take a look at 10 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: how you do relationships. And we come here to the 11 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: Our Spot to learn how to be better, how to 12 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: do better, how to create better relationships, all kinds of relationships. 13 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: I know we've talked about everything, but today we are 14 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: talking about something that is near and dear to my heart. Men. 15 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: And I'm sure every woman out there have a story 16 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: about a man, her father. What's your relationship like with 17 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: your father, your son? What's your relationship like with your son? 18 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: So a few months ago when we were doing I 19 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: was doing a class for men. I just started doing 20 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: some research around you know, what men are saying and 21 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: what men are doing and I bumped into a jewel, 22 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: a jewel, and then I realized I had this book 23 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: doing that research. They sent me over to a tent talk. 24 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: I went over to the tent Talk, which is rated 25 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: one of the top ten talks that every man should see. 26 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: And when I got over there, I fell in love. Okay, 27 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: I fell in love on the ted Talk. Okay, first 28 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: of all, because my guest today. 29 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: Is a New Yorker. 30 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: Okay, I come from the nation of Brooklyn, all right, 31 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: so I'll forgive him for living in between the Bronx 32 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: and Harlem. I don't even know what that is? 33 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 2: Is that? 34 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: But that's okay, boogie down. 35 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: You know. I got you, Haller, I got you. 36 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: But when I went and pulled the book out and 37 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: saw all the notes I had made in the book, 38 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: I fell in love all over again. My guest today 39 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: is Tony Porter, the author of Breaking out of the 40 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: Man Box, and he talks about men and allieship, men 41 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: being allies with women, men being allies with each other, 42 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: talks about fatherhood and doing his work with men and 43 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: breaking men out of the man Box. Tony said, helping 44 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: to create a world where all men and boys are 45 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: loving and respectful and all women, girls and those at 46 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: the margins of the margins are valued and safe. My 47 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: guest today Tony Porter, creator of The Man Box, a teacher, 48 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: an author, and activist working to advance gender and racial justice, 49 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: creating a more equitable society. A father work with the NFL. 50 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: Welcome Tony. 51 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: It's so good to be in your presence to just 52 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: on a privilege. Thank you for having us. I've been 53 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 2: excited since I've been told. I was told that I 54 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: was going to have an opportunity to be on your 55 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: show here, So thank you so much. 56 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: Well, thank you for agreeing to be here. A call 57 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: two men? Tell me about a call to men? What 58 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:07,839 Speaker 1: is the call? What is the call? 59 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: We're a national organization and as you mentioned with birth 60 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: out of New York, I'm born in Halem, raised in 61 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 2: the Bronx. 62 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: I'll forgive you for that. 63 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, But we started the organization about twenty three years ago, 64 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: both myself and the other co founder, Ted Bunch. I 65 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: was a social worker working in a substance use program 66 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: about thirty minutes north of the Bronx and town called Nayak. 67 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 2: I was in the hospital here at Nayak Hospital, and 68 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: the folks I served came from the boroughs. I met 69 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: Ted who was working at Safe Horizon running there. Back 70 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: in the day, they would be called batteries Intervention programs. 71 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: Today they may be called the Fender classes for men, 72 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 2: things of that nature. And I was volunteering at one 73 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: and him and I met, and I got to a 74 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: point in time when I realized, I said, you know, 75 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: this stuff that we're talking to men who are abusive about, 76 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: we really need to be sharing this information with all men, 77 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: because while all men are not abusive, and there's a 78 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: minority of men who are in comparison to the rest 79 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: of us, the problem is we're silent to the abuse. 80 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: For me, the question became, what is it about we 81 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: as men collectively that an epidemic of violence against women 82 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: and girls can be happening on our watch? And it 83 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: is that epidemic portion. You know, organization of like the 84 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: Center for Disease Control have said that, you know, one 85 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: of the leading coups is an injury to women in 86 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: our country is men's violence against women. You know, we 87 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: know one out of six women will be raped. We 88 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: know every three to six seconds a women's a victim 89 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,679 Speaker 2: of domestic violence. We know one out of three women 90 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: will experience some kind of assault in their life. One 91 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 2: out of two, out of one out of five women 92 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 2: during a four years in college, it's going to be 93 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: sexually assaulted. You know. We know trafficking is a multi 94 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 2: billion dollar industry and an average AI if a person 95 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: in traffic is a girl, it's thirteen fourteen years old. 96 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: Fifty percent somewhere between thirty and fifty percent of female 97 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: homicides our results of domestic violence, and we know women 98 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 2: are abusive too, but the numbers is no comparison. And 99 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 2: at the moment, I'm talking about men. So we know 100 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: there's an epidemic of violence against women and girls in 101 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: our society, you know, and I've been I was baffled 102 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: by that and the way that women love us, take 103 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: care of us, live in community with us, and then 104 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 2: have to protect themselves from us all at the same time, 105 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: and in many cases that love for us, women don't 106 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: even tell us the ways in which they're protecting themselves 107 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: from men on a day to day basis. I became 108 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 2: really invested in knowing more and understanding more about this issue, 109 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: and the thing that was resonating for me most was again, 110 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 2: while men, most men are not abusive, we tolerated, was 111 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 2: silent to the abuse? And how do we then create 112 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: a critical mass of men that say no more, no more, 113 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: not on our watch. How do we normalize healthy manhood 114 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: in a way that it also includes decreasing and ending 115 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: this epidemic of violence against women and girls. So it 116 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: was that vision that led to starting a. 117 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: Call to men, and the call is to not be silent, 118 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: to not not ignore it. As you were speaking, I 119 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: was just wondering how many men even know or recognize 120 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: or understand those statistics that you that you offered, because 121 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's easy to think, well, it's just a 122 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: little over here, or it's just a little piece over there. 123 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: But when you look at the world and you know 124 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: one in five women being raped, a one in four 125 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: dieing of homicide in their own home. I know two 126 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: women whose husbands took their lives. 127 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: So again, most men are not violent. But was silent 128 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: to the violence? 129 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: Isn't that a violence, Tony? 130 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: Isn't it is the form of violence? Yes? And I'm 131 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: glad you said that, sister, because we have to expand 132 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 2: our definition of violence. We have to expand it. It 133 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: has been too narrow focused. Yeah, And you know, domestic 134 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 2: violence continues to be the number one call for police 135 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 2: departments across the nation. Right, no particular community or cultural 136 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: group you know, has a lock on this thing across 137 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: the nation. Its remains the highest and number one call 138 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 2: for the average police department in our country. We know 139 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 2: that the scariest moment for our daughters, which should be celebrated, 140 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: is when they go off to college. So our work 141 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: with men, when you speak about that call, we are 142 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: and the fact that, as you mentioned that most men don't 143 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 2: know those statistics, and that's very true because we're the 144 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: first generation of men really having a responsibility to take 145 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: a very active and intentional role in addressing these issues. Right, 146 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 2: so we don't even have a voice for it many 147 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 2: of us. A lot of our work is engaging men, 148 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: mobilizing them, but educating them and helping men to develop 149 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 2: a voice to speak to these issues because it's new 150 00:09:55,320 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 2: to many of us, really helping men to understand their 151 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: influence and how they then use their influence to create 152 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: platform platforms, meaning what we choose to elevate to really 153 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 2: use their voice in this space. See, we believe firmly 154 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: that if women could end the violence on their own, 155 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 2: they would have already. We also that that only makes 156 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: sense to me. And while as a minority of men 157 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: in comparison to the rest of us here it's still 158 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 2: a lot of men, but it's a minority in comparison 159 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 2: to the rest of us. Somewhere twenty twenty five percent 160 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: of menace, so as a minority in comparison to the 161 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 2: rest of us, are perpetrating the violence. Now, sell those 162 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 2: men we love and care about, and we also have 163 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: to look into the history as to what led toward 164 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 2: them becoming who they are. That's also important in our work. 165 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 2: We know hurt people, heard of the people. We know 166 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: trauma breeds trauma from generation to generation. We actually know 167 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 2: that eighty percent of men who perpetrate violence against women 168 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: and girls who were victimized themselves as boys. Right, we 169 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: know that to be true. So while we can't count 170 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: on these men right now, when I go back and say, 171 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: if women could end the violence on their own, they 172 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: would have already, And then we have this smaller percentage 173 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: of men we really can't count on right now, but 174 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: we're not throwing them away right particularly in the black community. 175 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 2: I can't speak wholeheartedly for other community, but I could 176 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: speak about our we're not throwing men away. We have 177 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 2: to address this, but we're not throwing our men away. 178 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 2: But while we can't count on them at the moment, 179 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 2: you have this group of men that may be many 180 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: of your listener, the large majority of men or the 181 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 2: women listeners, the men they partner with, the large majority 182 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 2: of them don't perpetrate the violence. But we have to 183 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: really dig into the collective socialization of manhood. That's why 184 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: we got that little catchy term the man box. We're 185 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 2: talking about the collective socialization of manhood. What's in our 186 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 2: collective socialization that we don't know? Those stats that we have, 187 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: that we have this lack of interest in these type 188 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 2: of experiences women have because we were interested in the 189 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: women in our family. We love them, we care about them, 190 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: we do all we're supposed to do in those spaces. 191 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: But this general understanding of the experiences of women, we're 192 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: very lacking as men in that respect. And men who 193 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: are abusive at the end of the day, they really 194 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 2: rely on that because that contributes to our silence. So 195 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 2: our job is collectively as men no longer be silent, 196 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 2: to become educated, to teach other boys, other ways to 197 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 2: be men, to redefine some of these aspects of manhood. 198 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 2: And you know, from a sports and knowledge, get off 199 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: the sidelines right, get in it, right, get in the mix, 200 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 2: and really find our place and our role and responsibility. 201 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 2: And that's a great part of the work of a 202 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: Called Men. 203 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: All Right, I want to talk about the man box, 204 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: but I want to back up for just a moment 205 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: because I hear the women out there screaming. Okay, So 206 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: you know, for many, many years I've worked with women, men, 207 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: mostly women, and my assignment this year, twenty twenty four, 208 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: what's the work with men? And okay, I'm going to 209 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: be obedient. So I've offered a variety of things for 210 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: them showing up, Tony. But my question is for me, 211 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: for everybody, what do we say, how do we let 212 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: men know those who are use as those who not 213 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: who are not, that there's work to be done, that 214 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: they have to do and they got to show up 215 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: to do the work. 216 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: How do we do that? That's a great question. And 217 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: over these years of doing this work, these twenty plus years, 218 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 2: we're constantly reevaluating that when we first started doing the 219 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 2: work of a Call to Men, we were just talking 220 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: about men's violence against women, and we got to figure 221 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 2: out how to disruptive stop it, et cetera. And that's 222 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 2: like you know, you know, that's like preaching to the choir. Right, 223 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: you have those five six men that always show up, 224 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: and that's it. See what we learn, what we learn 225 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: in this this thing we call the collective socialists of manhood, 226 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: also known as a man box. Men are taught to 227 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: define what it means to be a man by distancing 228 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: ourselves from the experience of women and girls. Doesn't mean 229 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 2: we don't care about the women and girls in our 230 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: circles and our family, et cetera. Of course we do. 231 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 2: But we define what it means to be a man 232 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: by distancing ourselves from what we perceive to be the 233 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: experience of women and girls. Right. Also, we're not taught 234 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: to be our authentic selves as men. This man box 235 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: really forces us to be a role self rol e 236 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: instead of our whole self whl Right. And so when 237 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: you take this lack of interest we then define then 238 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: as a result, you have distancing and you take this 239 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: inability to be your authentic selves. Right, It could be 240 00:15:55,160 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 2: challenging to get us to join certain spaces, right, even 241 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: when you talk about like a healing space. For most 242 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: of us, we've been taught ain't nothing wrong with me, 243 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: that's right, I can't talk about I can't talk about see. 244 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: A big part of this man box is men are 245 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: taught that men are strong, dominating, women are soft, gentle, 246 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: and weak. Yes, that's in the teaching. We're then taught 247 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: to define what it means to be a man by 248 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: distancing ourselves from the experience of women and girls. So 249 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: by virtue of distancing ourselves, we as men don't admit 250 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: it to weakness much at all. The word weak is 251 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: not even in our vocabulary. Even when feeling weak, we 252 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: come up with other ways of saying that, I'm a 253 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: little tired, and I'm a little stressed. I'm not feeling 254 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: too good today, I'm a little wore out on burnt. 255 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: We never use the word weak in association with ourselves. 256 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: Now you couple that with being taught that asking for 257 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 2: help is a sign of weakness. Now, just mathematically speaking, 258 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: we find ourselves as men. We don't ask for help, 259 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: we don't offer help far to offer, and we don't 260 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 2: accept help. Right, and then it's amenability to ask for, offer, 261 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: or accept help is healing us as men. So when 262 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: you talk about healing circles and those kinds of spaces, 263 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 2: they are not attractive to us because they lean into 264 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 2: that space of help, and we resist anything in many 265 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 2: cases that look like help because then it starts to 266 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 2: look having us look or believing that we're weak. And 267 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: if we're weak and that distancing, we're closing up that gap. 268 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: You feel the way I'm coming from. All of that 269 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 2: we run from as men. 270 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely. One of the brothers that I worked with, he said, Iyamla, 271 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: vulnerability and inadequacy are chrystonite to a man. 272 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we don't do vulnerability right, and vulnerability is 273 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: risk taking in many respects, and it's risk taking that 274 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 2: really leads toward accomplishment, even when you're talking about healings. 275 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: But we're taught to be in control as men, not 276 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: to be vulnerable, right. And you know, as I shared 277 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: with you, the impact is having on women in this 278 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 2: epidemic of violence is hurting us as men too. Yes, 279 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 2: absolutely we You know statistics tell us that six million 280 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: men go undiagnosed annually for depression and anxiety because we 281 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 2: don't ask for help or we try to cover it up. 282 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 2: We don't go to the doctor on a regular basis. 283 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 2: We don't practice preventative medicine. Again, this issue around asking 284 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: for the help. Men who are partnered, by the way, 285 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 2: are much more healthier than men who are not. And 286 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: it has very little to do with the man. It's 287 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 2: that partner that's constantly ensuring that he takes care of himself. 288 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 2: Right now, I go for a physical exam twice a year. 289 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: I see my doctor on a regular basis. But I 290 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 2: wasn't always that person. And as I get older, I'm 291 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 2: more invested. But my wife has been behind me all 292 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 2: these years. You know. Look, I got a vitamin box. 293 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: That's one of those big old boxes. I don't even 294 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 2: know half of what I'm taking. I just do what 295 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 2: she tell me to do, and in some cases because 296 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 2: she's a student of it, you know. And so I 297 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 2: noticed the true that personally and otherwise, that men who 298 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 2: are partner have a tendency to be healthier, and a 299 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: lot of that has to do with the person in 300 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 2: their lives. They even tell us that, you know, not 301 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: only does that person in our lives insist upon us 302 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: going to the doctor and all of that, but even 303 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: when at the doctor's office, they asked the questions they 304 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: have to because we will not tell We'll be right 305 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 2: in the doctor's office because we came for one issue, 306 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: but we're not going to tell them about that pain 307 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: that's been nagging us and decide that we will literally 308 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: this this really you know, we can laugh at it. 309 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 2: I've seen things every now and then on social media 310 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 2: making fun of men, but seriously thinking when we think 311 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: about it, very seriously and critically, you're in the doctor's 312 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 2: office to address one issue, and you've been having this 313 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: nagging pain in your side for weeks, and you leave 314 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: that doctor's office and don't mention that you know, there's 315 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 2: something about that that really has to be addressed amongst 316 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 2: us as men. And that's this issue of health, the 317 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 2: inability to ask for help. So when you talk about 318 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: a mental health crisis amongst men, right, this inability to 319 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: ask to help. Men complete suicide three and a half 320 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: to four times that the rate of women. Women live five, six, seven, 321 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: eight years longer than men on average. So this whole 322 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: issue of really addressing Now we've been socialized to define 323 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 2: what it means to be a man. We have a 324 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: tendency to call the men to say by addressing this 325 00:21:55,359 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: disease issues, we will increase healthy, respectful manhoods. And in 326 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 2: that increasing of healthy respectful man we will also decrease 327 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,719 Speaker 2: this epidemic of violence against women in the girl. It's 328 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 2: a win all all the way. 329 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: Around, and we'll talk about that when we come back. 330 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the R spot. 331 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 2: Let me ask you a question. 332 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: You talk about the socialization of men. How do mothers 333 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: play a role in that deficit, dysfunctional socialization of men? 334 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: How do mothers play a role and how do fathers. 335 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: Play a role. Well, there are three aspects of manhood 336 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 2: that we intentionally address at a call. The men that 337 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 2: we feel contribute greatly to the socialization that we want 338 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 2: to challenge and change. As men, we're taught to have 339 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: less value in women, right, And it's all collectively speaking, 340 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: And this is not about individual men. There are individual 341 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 2: men that will act and operate differently, but what we 342 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 2: do know this is the collective experience of men. And 343 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 2: even those individual men that act and do differently, they 344 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 2: understand this collective socialization as well. In this collective socialization, 345 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 2: we're taught to have less value in women, right, Which 346 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 2: is why the easiest way to tell the boy he's 347 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 2: not playing up the standards in sports? Is it telling 348 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: me he's playing like a girl? Oh my god? And 349 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: he will immediately try hard. Why because when you tell 350 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 2: him he's playing like a girl, you are telling him 351 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: he's in this place of less value and he needs 352 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: to get out of there. And that's why it works, right, 353 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: because we're taught that women and girls are less value 354 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: than men. We work with coaches all the time to 355 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: help them to learn other ways to motivate boys. Right 356 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: Because coach, every time you tell the boy he's playing 357 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 2: like a girl, what are you in essensaning about girls? Right? 358 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: So you got to think about the language you're using. 359 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 2: But the reason why coaches use that language is because 360 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 2: collectively speaking, we're taught to have less value in women 361 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 2: and girls. So less value is one aspect of socialization 362 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 2: we put a lot of tension on. Another aspect is 363 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: the issue of women as the property of men. While 364 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: we know that there was a time that was true, 365 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: it's no longer true today, but it's tolerated throughout our community. 366 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 2: It is also why domestic violence flourishes. The issue of 367 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: women as the property of men. Third area that we 368 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 2: put a lot of attention on is the socialization of 369 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 2: women as objects, particularly sexual objects, which is why we 370 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 2: unfortunately still live in a rape culture. Those three aspects 371 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: of the collective socialization of manner and if you put 372 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 2: them in an equation less value us property, thus objectification, 373 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,239 Speaker 2: it equals violence against women, right, this whole thing. If 374 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 2: you couple that with as I talked about men not 375 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: having permission to be their authentic self finding manhood by 376 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 2: distancing ourselves from the experience of women and girls, we 377 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 2: live are still in the state of a binary heteroonormative 378 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 2: as far as our society is concerned, not a lot 379 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 2: of room for self expression as it relates to gender 380 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 2: or sexuality. All of this is part of this collective 381 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 2: socialization in a male dominating society which we still live in. 382 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: Many men are challenged by the notion that is a 383 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 2: male dominating society, Well, it is you will find women 384 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 2: as men. We all have women who are authorities in 385 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 2: our lives. Right, we have a woman right now running 386 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: for president in the United States. We do know women 387 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: are in leadership. But when we say a male dominating society, 388 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: if you put all the men in our country on 389 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: one side of the room and all the women in 390 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: our country on the other side of the room. It 391 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: then becomes very clear that men run control and dominate 392 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: this nation. Now, women who are raising sons or boys, 393 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: they're raising sons and boys based on what they've been taught. 394 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 2: That is important in respect to men. So what we 395 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 2: as men respect is what women will raise their sons 396 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: to be right, So whatever we respect as men collectively speaking, 397 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: And you're raising a son and you want him to 398 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 2: live in concert with men, to be respected and appreciated 399 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 2: by men, you're going to teach him what men say 400 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 2: he needs to know. Now as men, and I've been 401 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 2: around many men will say, you know, well, this ain't 402 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 2: about us. You know, women do the same thing, or 403 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 2: women teach the same thing. Yeah, they do. They do 404 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 2: teach the same thing. You know why. It's how we 405 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 2: as men collectively define what it means to be a man. 406 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: To a women's gonna teach that to her son so 407 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: he can be on part with us, and we collectively 408 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 2: as men begin to redefine manhood. Women themselves would teach 409 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 2: that to their sons, and boy, it still comes down 410 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: to us as men, in my estimation, we can blame. Now, 411 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 2: there are many women who are going against the grain 412 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: of that and saying, I'm not teaching that to my sons. 413 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 2: I know it doesn't work, I know it's not cool, 414 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 2: but they'll find themselves at times that are disadvantage because 415 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: they'll be teaching their sons one thing in a home, 416 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 2: and then when he hits the community, it's the door. 417 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: We got a whole him, and we're putting a lot 418 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 2: of pressure on him not to really conform to what 419 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 2: he may be learning from his mother. Right, and then 420 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 2: there are the women who are teaching him exactly what 421 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: we are saying it means to be a man. So, 422 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 2: because it's not my most important point here would be 423 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 2: it's not so much about blaming women. And that's where 424 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 2: we will get off on as men. You know she's 425 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 2: teaching it to her son, Yeah she is, But let's 426 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 2: let us as men redefine or reimagine at least what 427 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: healthy man who looks like, and that she may have 428 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 2: the opportunity to comfortably teach that to him because in 429 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 2: her mind also it's safety, right, What are we going 430 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 2: to respect? How is her son going to be saved? 431 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 2: She might already feel like she's a disadvantage, particularly if 432 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: she's a single bomb raising a boy. She may already 433 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: feel like she's at a disadvantage by not being a man. 434 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: Safety is always paramount for her. That he got to 435 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: go out this door, go to school, go here, go 436 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 2: here on his own. He got to be able to 437 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: handle it right, handle what handle what we collectively has 438 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: to find what it means to be a man. So 439 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 2: it's really really not about her. It's about us that 440 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 2: we begin to reimagine what healthy man who looks like 441 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 2: she would gladly teach that to us. 442 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: Son, Now you have raised so many things. We're gonna 443 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: be here for the rest of the week. But the 444 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: couple of things I have to say, because I really 445 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: want the mothers to get this, the women to get this, 446 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: because we are raising sons, many of us are raising 447 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: them alone. And I always say to women, you are 448 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: raising somebody's husband and somebody's father. So when you're talking 449 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: to that child, that boy, that young man, you have 450 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: to remember that this is what he's going to hear, 451 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: this is what he's going to expect, this is what 452 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: he's going to respond to from his wife and his daughter. Okay, 453 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: so let's go on and talk about the man box 454 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: what's in the box. 455 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we use the box again. The man box 456 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: is actually the collective socialization of manhood. But to teach 457 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: it to men, particularly the teacher to boys. When you 458 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: say the man box, you know that that sounds kind 459 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 2: of cool. Actually, you know you can get men. You know, 460 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 2: we was talking earlier about getting men to pay attention, 461 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 2: to have some interest in what we're talking about. When 462 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: you say the man box, a lot of men will 463 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 2: sit up and say, well, that's interesting, what's that? And 464 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: it will ask men, you know, what are all the 465 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 2: ingredients that define what it means to be a man? 466 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,479 Speaker 2: All right? And every time they define one, we can 467 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 2: just drop that in the box. And so actually, when 468 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 2: you're engaging with men, they themselves will fill up that 469 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 2: man box. And you get men into a space to 470 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 2: have the conversation, we will gladly have the conversation. The 471 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 2: challenge is, and you alluded to this earlier, is getting 472 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 2: us into the space. But when you talk to men 473 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 2: about the man box, in the box a men a tough, strong, aggressive, 474 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: dominating in control. We don't do vulnerability. As I mentioned 475 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 2: in earlier, we're taught to have less value in women. 476 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 2: Women is a property, amendment of women as object, particularly 477 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 2: selfual objects. We're taught to be protectives. We don't share 478 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 2: our feelings any emotions, with the exception of anger is 479 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: the only emotion we give each other permission to express. 480 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: We're not our authentic selves with more of a role 481 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 2: self than our whole self. These are all the things 482 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: that make up this box. We also say that homophobia 483 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 2: is the glue. Homophobia, meaning the fear of being perceived 484 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: as gay, is the glue that keeps this man box together. 485 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 2: Many of us are being held hostage to this box. 486 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 2: We've had enough of it, but we may fear more 487 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 2: being outside of it than in side of it. You know, 488 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 2: many of us are picking, choosing our moments to be 489 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 2: outside the box and be comfortable and free. And then 490 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: there are other times where we find security in the 491 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: box based on what's going on in our environment, and 492 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 2: we might it might be safer for us to be 493 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 2: in a box, and that's where we become more performative, 494 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: because in our art, this is not who I am, 495 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,239 Speaker 2: but based on my situation, this is how I have 496 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 2: to be right. So this is how this box pretty 497 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 2: much operates. The box teaches men don't be too nice, 498 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: don't be too caring, don't be too loving, don't be 499 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 2: too concerned, don't be too any of that, right, All 500 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 2: of that can be viewed as weakness. Right, And for us, 501 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 2: you know, it's very, very important to never appear weak, 502 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 2: even though there are many, many times when we are weak. Right, 503 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: And this piece around limited emotional intelligence. The only emotion 504 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 2: we give each other permission to express his anger. Most 505 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 2: of us don't even know what anger actually is. You 506 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: know that anger is a secondary emotion, is a response 507 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 2: to the emotion. Every time you get angry, you were 508 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: either scared or your feelings hurt. But as men, we 509 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 2: don't do fear. No fear, right, And we don't talk 510 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 2: about feelings in a way to say my feelings are hurt. 511 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 2: We never say that to each other. But when I 512 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 2: get upset with you, I'm upset with you because you 513 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 2: hurt my feelings. Right, But we can't talk in that 514 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: kind of language. As men. We've been taught to define 515 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 2: what it means to be a man. Okay, by distancing 516 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 2: ourselves from what we perceive to be the experience of 517 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 2: women and girls. Women and girls do all of what 518 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 2: we're talking about ten times better. Than men. Women and girls, 519 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 2: selectively speaking, are much better representative of how we would 520 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 2: define emnity. By distancing ourselves from the experience of women 521 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 2: and girls to the fine what it means to be 522 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 2: a man as men, we are, in essence, distancing ourselves 523 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: from our own humanity. We are when you say why 524 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 2: we are simply on remote control doing tradition, We're just 525 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: passing tradition down from one generation to the next. And 526 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 2: we're not doing enough questioning of what we're passing down 527 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 2: to our sons and other boys. We're not doing enough 528 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 2: critical thinking of what we're passing down to our sons 529 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 2: and boys. We're just doing tradition on remote control. And 530 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: our job is to get men off the remote control. 531 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 2: And let's be more critical in our thinking. What we 532 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 2: were doing as men one hundred years ago is not 533 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 2: necessarily what we should be doing today. And that's why 534 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 2: we talk about reimagining manhood. Let's reimagining men and at 535 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 2: a call to men, our bagline is the next generation 536 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 2: of manhood. And so while there's an urgency of now, 537 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 2: we have a huge focus on the next generation of 538 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: manhood and getting off of remote control. And that's our 539 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 2: work right now. Of their men listening. My hopes is 540 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 2: to get them off of remote control and start thinking 541 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 2: more critically about what we're doing, what we're teaching. Every 542 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 2: time you tell a three to four year old boy 543 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 2: to stop crying, you are, in essence telling him to 544 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 2: stop feeling. We can have we can have a discussion 545 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 2: around why you're crying, right, but to not even have 546 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 2: an investment in what's going on when you just stop crying. 547 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 2: By five years old, the average boy has already been 548 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,879 Speaker 2: taught that crying is off the table, and sharing what's 549 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: going on with you is off the table. What is 550 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 2: he doing with all that and. 551 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: With that peace? It's not the crying, it's that what 552 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: is going on with you, what you're feeling, what you're experiencing, 553 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: doesn't matter, it's not important or you know, cannot be shared. 554 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: And then when he gets a wife and kids, he 555 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,439 Speaker 1: doesn't know how to share what he's feeling. We'll talk 556 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: about that right after this break. Welcome back to the 557 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: R spot. Let's get back to the conversation. I want 558 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: to go back for a minute. Women ask property of men. 559 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: Here's a question, no heat, no judgment, I promise you, 560 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: and women particularly as sexual objects, is that what is 561 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: leading to the just the astronomical rate of men creating 562 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: children and then walking away from them because the woman 563 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: was just the sex object. You don't have any connection 564 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: to her and therefore no responsibility for the gestation of 565 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: his seed. What is that, Tony helped me. What part 566 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: of manhood is that? 567 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 2: Well, you nailed it, right. If we look, if you 568 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 2: look at less value, property and objectification, it's in its 569 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 2: a tirety is a dehumanization process or a dehumanization issue 570 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 2: or experience as it relates to men and women. Right, 571 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 2: If she's of less value, we can see what that means. 572 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 2: She's a property, So she's not really even a person, 573 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 2: even though we know, but she's not in our socialization, 574 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 2: and she's an object, particularly a sexual object. Right. Well, 575 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 2: that's why when men break up with a woman, we'll 576 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 2: tell them in a minute, you know, just let's go 577 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 2: to the club. Right. I mean, when I was a 578 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 2: young man, I remember that term they should have, you know, 579 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 2: it's more efficient to see or something like that. Get 580 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 2: over it, right, get over it and move on. We don't 581 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 2: even allow men to grieve. Right, Women will say to 582 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 2: other women and nothing's one hundred percent here right. This 583 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 2: is not an exact science. I don't want anybody to 584 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 2: think that. But women will say the other women, a girl, 585 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 2: take a time out, get yourself together, take a break, 586 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,959 Speaker 2: and I'm gonna be right here with you. We don't 587 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 2: talk like that as men. It's like, let's replace her 588 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 2: right now. Put some clothes on, We're going to the club. 589 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 2: That's what we get your behind uh out of this house. 590 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 2: Stop laying around here crying and carrying on like or whatever, 591 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 2: whatever whatever. Get yourself together. You know, I introducing you to 592 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 2: my girlfriend's cousin. We want to do something right, and 593 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 2: we and then that's just what we're gonna do this. 594 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 2: We're simply gonna replace her, right, That's what we're gonna do. 595 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 2: So we don't even have a recognition collectively as men 596 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 2: that you actually need degree this is a loss in 597 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 2: your life. We don't. It doesn't. We don't see it 598 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 2: that way. So yeah, yes, And I'm not saying that 599 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 2: we're not in pain and hurt as men when we 600 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 2: make those decisions just to walk away, whether it's from 601 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 2: children or partners or whatever. But based on what we're 602 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 2: todd's easier to do it right. And I'm not here 603 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,720 Speaker 2: demonizing man. There's a lot of men who are sticking 604 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 2: and staying and doing the right thing. And brothers, we 605 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 2: are not talking about you in this moment. We're just 606 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 2: talking about the impact of this collective socialization that will 607 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 2: make it easier for us to walk away. And I'm 608 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 2: a big fan. You can be a great non custodial parent. 609 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 2: You just got to put time in, right, You got 610 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 2: to put time in. It requires time. It also requires 611 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 2: you to have an appropriate relationship with the mother of 612 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 2: that child. Right. You can't demonize her. You can't. You 613 00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:01,439 Speaker 2: cannot demonize the person that you're yow loves more than 614 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 2: anyone in the whole wide world and have a good 615 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 2: relationship with that child. You've got to figure out a 616 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 2: way to be in conctant with her, to be kind 617 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 2: and in some cases to be loving and caring. Is 618 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 2: a level of maturity that's involved in doing that, and 619 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,760 Speaker 2: then you can be a great non custodial parent. 620 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: Let me say this because I want to go back 621 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,720 Speaker 1: to this object again. You know, there's a man box, 622 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 1: there's a woman box too. And one of the things 623 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: that concerns me right now that I see growing and 624 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is the collective socialization of 625 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: women or I really don't know what to call this, 626 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: but how women are objectifying men meaning what can he 627 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: give me? What can he do for me? What can 628 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: he buy me? And he's got to come to the 629 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 1: table with, you know, X amount of dollars or X 630 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: kind of job because that's what I want. 631 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,839 Speaker 2: How is that. 632 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: Either keeping men in the box or creating a new box. 633 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: I don't even that's a collective socialization of women. My 634 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,479 Speaker 1: question to you is how is that impacting men? 635 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 2: Well? I think what comes up for me is when 636 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 2: we say women see them ass, there may very well 637 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 2: be a selective group of women that see them ass. Yes, absolutely, 638 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 2: I would say more in general, it's a lot of 639 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 2: things that in front of us when we think about that, 640 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 2: when we think about capitalism, right, I got mind, you 641 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 2: get yours. When we think about living in a capitalist society, 642 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 2: when you think about the impact of gender on women. 643 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 2: You know, right now today women makes eighty cents to 644 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 2: the dollar for men doing the same job, and a 645 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 2: black or brown woman makes a sixty five cents to 646 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 2: a dollar doing the same job. When you think about 647 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 2: issues of equality, issues of equity, when you think about 648 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 2: trauma that women have experienced at the handsome men, and 649 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 2: now you got women trying to figure out and so 650 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 2: might be doing a little sideway, but I'm still not 651 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,280 Speaker 2: gonna be but so mad at them trying to figure 652 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 2: out how to have some power, yeah, right, and some 653 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 2: respectability in this world that if you're a woman, you're 654 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,359 Speaker 2: going to have less. If you're black or brown women, 655 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 2: you're gonna have less if your dark skin could we 656 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 2: live in a society rooting an anti blackness, if your 657 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 2: dark skinned black women, you're gonna have less. Right, if 658 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 2: you don't fit into the box of how we have 659 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 2: society to find what's physically attractive, you're going to have less. 660 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,800 Speaker 2: And within all of that people are trying to find 661 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 2: way to make it right. So, yeah, you're going to 662 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 2: I have those experiences. Maybe, and maybe it is more 663 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 2: of a a younger woman's game than an older woman's game. 664 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,240 Speaker 2: Maybe younger women's saying I ain't doing what putting up 665 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 2: put up with right, you know, So I get it, 666 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 2: and I can see the challenges it creates. But I 667 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 2: can also see how they got there. And most of 668 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 2: the time, when you look at how they got there 669 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,360 Speaker 2: is less their responsibility in all ours more hours collectively, 670 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 2: unless say people don't have any responsibility for their decision 671 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 2: to live. Course they do. But there's something going on 672 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 2: within our society that's also fostering orstering that as well. 673 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: Tony, we are about to run out of time, but 674 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to end this conversation, so I'm going 675 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: to ask you to stick around and we're going to 676 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: do a part two. So to all of thesteners, if 677 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: you heard something today that's helpful, if you've got more questions, 678 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: I want you to be sure to tune in next 679 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: week for Part two. 680 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 2: I'll see you then. 681 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: In the meantime, stay in peace and not piece fine. 682 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: The R Spot is a production of Shondaland Audio in 683 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 1: partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit 684 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 685 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:37,560 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.