WEBVTT - Deep Cover Live with Emily Bazelon 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:20.836 Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake. Thanks for listening to deep Cover. 0:00:21.436 --> 0:00:23.876 I'm starting to work now on season four, and I 0:00:23.916 --> 0:00:26.156 want to remind you that when you sign up for 0:00:26.196 --> 0:00:29.436 Pushkin Plus, you'll get access to binge drops of future 0:00:29.436 --> 0:00:33.196 seasons of Deep Cover and exclusive content from other Pushkin 0:00:33.276 --> 0:00:36.036 true crime hits like Death of an Artist, which just 0:00:36.196 --> 0:00:39.156 rapped its first season, as well as Lost Hills, which 0:00:39.196 --> 0:00:42.796 is returning with their third season this June. And of course, 0:00:42.996 --> 0:00:46.676 don't miss early access to Revisionist History and The Happiness Lab, 0:00:46.796 --> 0:00:49.636 which are both publishing year round for the first time 0:00:49.956 --> 0:00:53.996 in twenty twenty three. Check out Pushkin dot fm or 0:00:54.036 --> 0:01:00.156 the Apple Show page for more information. Earlier this month, 0:01:00.316 --> 0:01:03.396 I sat down for a live recorded conversation with my 0:01:03.476 --> 0:01:07.036 friend Emily Basilon. She's a staff writer at The New 0:01:07.116 --> 0:01:10.796 York Times magazine and a co host of Slate's Political Gabfest. 0:01:11.636 --> 0:01:15.436 Emily someone I go to when I'm thinking through a story. Actually, 0:01:15.516 --> 0:01:18.036 this often happens during runs that we take through East 0:01:18.116 --> 0:01:23.156 Rock Park in New Haven, where we both live. We 0:01:23.276 --> 0:01:25.796 kind of nerd out on these runs. We talk about 0:01:25.796 --> 0:01:28.756 the process of recording and the ethical challenges that we 0:01:28.796 --> 0:01:32.076 both face when telling our stories. So we took that 0:01:32.196 --> 0:01:35.636 conversation rum the streets of New Haven to Brooklyn to 0:01:35.716 --> 0:01:38.836 a place called Littlefield, and just so you can picture it, 0:01:38.916 --> 0:01:41.556 it's a really great scene. It's a bar on the 0:01:41.676 --> 0:01:45.756 stage with these two orange leather chairs, microphones, this cool 0:01:45.836 --> 0:01:48.756 lighting display behind us. It was a fun night and 0:01:48.796 --> 0:01:54.076 I'm excited to share that conversation with you here to 0:01:54.116 --> 0:01:59.236 talk about season three, my favorite season. When Jake told 0:01:59.276 --> 0:02:01.356 me about the idea for this season on a run, 0:02:01.476 --> 0:02:04.396 I was immediately sold. I'm going to say this. I 0:02:04.436 --> 0:02:06.356 hope it's true. I think I said this is going 0:02:06.396 --> 0:02:09.116 to be the best season you did, but I didn't 0:02:09.236 --> 0:02:12.916 know whether you're adjut you know, trying to up my confidence. Yeah, 0:02:13.116 --> 0:02:16.396 I was certain because it's just such a good story. 0:02:16.716 --> 0:02:21.276 So why don't we start, because I love these stories 0:02:21.276 --> 0:02:25.076 from you, with your telling us how you found this 0:02:25.276 --> 0:02:28.076 terrific story. Yeah, I mean, and also just say that 0:02:28.116 --> 0:02:31.276 I years ago, an NPR producer said to me that 0:02:31.436 --> 0:02:34.756 a good MPR segment should always feel like one person 0:02:35.076 --> 0:02:37.916 talking to one other person. So in some ways, like 0:02:38.036 --> 0:02:40.596 this run we had, or when I'll pitch the ideas, 0:02:40.876 --> 0:02:44.516 that's how it starts. And so I live in New Haven. 0:02:44.596 --> 0:02:47.916 We both went to Yale, and I've always been kind 0:02:47.956 --> 0:02:50.876 of interested in people that faked their way into universities, 0:02:50.916 --> 0:02:52.476 and there was a guy who faked his way into 0:02:52.596 --> 0:02:54.596 Yale when I had been a student there, and I 0:02:54.636 --> 0:02:57.676 started poking around about maybe there's a story about someone 0:02:57.676 --> 0:03:00.916 who lived some kind of elaborate deception. And it turns 0:03:00.916 --> 0:03:04.036 out I found a piece in the Harvard Crimson about 0:03:04.036 --> 0:03:06.356 a woman named Esther Reid. I mean, this was just 0:03:06.436 --> 0:03:08.956 kind of the tip of the iceberg, and so started 0:03:08.996 --> 0:03:12.276 going down that path of like where else did she 0:03:12.436 --> 0:03:15.636 go and who else was she? And yeah, that kind 0:03:15.636 --> 0:03:19.236 of opened the rabbit's hole, and because of those years ago, 0:03:19.956 --> 0:03:22.516 you had this kind of tantalizing lead. But then there 0:03:22.556 --> 0:03:24.636 was this whole question of like, who is this person 0:03:24.716 --> 0:03:27.196 now and would she talk to you? And why would 0:03:27.276 --> 0:03:29.556 she ever talk to you. I wrote this kind of 0:03:29.636 --> 0:03:32.756 generic letter saying who I was, and then I got 0:03:32.796 --> 0:03:37.156 a callback from Esther And this is a bit of 0:03:37.156 --> 0:03:41.276 a spoiler if you haven't gotten through episode six, but 0:03:41.876 --> 0:03:44.956 she told me that yes, I'm now I go by 0:03:45.076 --> 0:03:48.556 Esther Matthews, and I'm a professor of criminology at Gonzaga University. 0:03:48.996 --> 0:03:54.236 I was like what, And then I just was kind 0:03:54.236 --> 0:03:57.636 of really hooked on all right, this is really unusual woman. 0:03:57.676 --> 0:04:00.516 What is her story? So I flew out to spoken 0:04:00.636 --> 0:04:03.796 where she lives. I rented an airbnb. We set up 0:04:03.836 --> 0:04:06.036 like a little studio in the living room of the airbnb, 0:04:06.716 --> 0:04:09.716 and I just said, okay, like let's start talking. Tell 0:04:09.756 --> 0:04:12.596 me your story. And this is kind of how it began. 0:04:13.836 --> 0:04:16.316 This is a story about a young woman who ran 0:04:16.356 --> 0:04:20.036 away from home. At least that's how it all started. 0:04:20.596 --> 0:04:22.476 I think people think that I had this master plan 0:04:22.516 --> 0:04:24.716 and I went out and did it, and like, you know, 0:04:24.796 --> 0:04:29.196 like it's not fun, right, You're constantly scared, you have 0:04:29.236 --> 0:04:31.436 no support, you have no one to talk to, which 0:04:31.476 --> 0:04:34.556 is part of the reason it got so carried away. 0:04:34.596 --> 0:04:38.436 Like if I had just talked to somebody, they would 0:04:38.436 --> 0:04:42.156 have been like this is crazy. Along the way, there 0:04:42.156 --> 0:04:44.676 were plenty of moments where she could have stopped running, 0:04:45.436 --> 0:04:49.796 but she didn't. Sort of like I got on a 0:04:49.876 --> 0:04:53.916 train track. There was clearly the wrong train track, and like, 0:04:54.036 --> 0:04:57.276 my train is running away, and at some point you're 0:04:57.276 --> 0:04:59.676 not thinking crap, how do we get off this train track? 0:04:59.716 --> 0:05:02.116 You're just thinking crap, how do I stop this train 0:05:02.196 --> 0:05:05.076 from like going off the rails. You know, I just 0:05:05.196 --> 0:05:08.516 kept making horrible decision after horrible decision after horrible decision, 0:05:09.596 --> 0:05:12.116 just trying to keep the train from crashing and killing 0:05:12.116 --> 0:05:19.236 me at that point. So there's a lot of reflection 0:05:19.516 --> 0:05:22.636 in Esther's voice, and you can tell that she's still 0:05:22.676 --> 0:05:26.236 wrestling with the emotions she has, and the memories are 0:05:26.276 --> 0:05:29.556 mixed in with how difficult and experience she had in 0:05:29.716 --> 0:05:32.676 this past that you're excavating with her. Why did she 0:05:32.756 --> 0:05:37.076 decide to talk to you? I think so at that point, 0:05:37.116 --> 0:05:40.116 and as I say in the podcast, she was Professor 0:05:40.236 --> 0:05:44.276 Esther Matthews. Almost no one at her university or in 0:05:44.316 --> 0:05:47.596 this town knew that she was also this kind of 0:05:47.636 --> 0:05:52.556 notorious figure from the tabloids, Esther Reid. But she lived 0:05:52.996 --> 0:05:55.316 under this kind of specter of fear that someone was 0:05:55.316 --> 0:05:58.756 going to eventually put the dots together, and that she felt, 0:05:58.756 --> 0:06:01.396 if that was going to happen, why not do it 0:06:01.396 --> 0:06:03.396 on my own terms and just kind of be out 0:06:03.396 --> 0:06:05.436 in front of it, especially because she had had such 0:06:05.516 --> 0:06:08.156 poor treatment in the media before. So I think there 0:06:08.196 --> 0:06:09.796 was kind of a timing thing where she said, I've 0:06:09.796 --> 0:06:14.396 been thinking about doing this. She knew that she knew 0:06:14.436 --> 0:06:18.596 that that John Campbell had visited her LinkedIn page. She 0:06:18.716 --> 0:06:23.036 knew that people would sometimes kind of poke around, and 0:06:23.116 --> 0:06:27.076 so I think she just said, let's do this. We 0:06:27.196 --> 0:06:29.156 had one of these discussions and Emily, you know, we 0:06:29.476 --> 0:06:31.596 talked about this all the time on our runs, where 0:06:31.756 --> 0:06:34.236 someone says they'll talk and then they say, oh this 0:06:34.316 --> 0:06:36.196 is off limits and that's off limits and you can't 0:06:36.236 --> 0:06:39.716 call them, and and I was waiting for that, and 0:06:39.756 --> 0:06:41.596 she said, kind of got out in front of it, 0:06:41.636 --> 0:06:43.596 and she said, look, I know you're going to want 0:06:43.596 --> 0:06:45.676 to talk to other people. I'm not going to try 0:06:45.716 --> 0:06:49.036 to control who you talk to. Look, you got to 0:06:49.116 --> 0:06:51.236 do what you have to do. And that gave me 0:06:51.316 --> 0:06:53.276 some confidence that I was going to be dealing with 0:06:53.316 --> 0:06:57.356 someone who understood the process of what would be involved. 0:06:57.356 --> 0:06:59.316 And so I think it's a short answer is timing. 0:07:00.196 --> 0:07:03.636 So you mentioned John Campbell, who's the detective in this story, 0:07:03.756 --> 0:07:05.996 and we made I think, kind of an unusual decision 0:07:06.196 --> 0:07:09.676 to really start the podcast with him. I mean, Esther's 0:07:09.756 --> 0:07:12.196 voice shows up early, but then you really moved to 0:07:12.276 --> 0:07:17.716 his perspective, and he's not originally investigating Esther's disappearance. He's 0:07:17.756 --> 0:07:21.276 investigating the disappearance of another young woman. Right. Yeah, he's 0:07:21.316 --> 0:07:24.836 investigating the disappearance of a woman named Brooke Henson who 0:07:24.916 --> 0:07:28.716 disappeared from the small town of Traveler's Rest, and he 0:07:28.796 --> 0:07:31.196 wants to get to the bottom of this. But she 0:07:31.436 --> 0:07:34.596 is vanished, and he hasn't given up on the case, 0:07:34.756 --> 0:07:37.956 but he is the light is dim that he's going 0:07:37.996 --> 0:07:40.316 to get to the answer and then whatever it is. 0:07:40.316 --> 0:07:42.036 Six or seven years later, he gets a call from 0:07:42.036 --> 0:07:45.956 New York saying, I think I found your woman, Brooke Henson. 0:07:46.036 --> 0:07:49.116 She's a student at Columbia University. And of course it's 0:07:49.156 --> 0:07:52.836 not really Brooke, it's Esther. But this leads him on 0:07:52.876 --> 0:07:57.316 this quest to pursue Esther. And I'll just say I 0:07:57.396 --> 0:08:01.356 wanted to talk to John. I called him up. He said, 0:08:01.356 --> 0:08:03.916 coming down and chat. And I really wasn't sure what 0:08:03.996 --> 0:08:06.396 to expect when I retire. I can't wait to put 0:08:06.396 --> 0:08:09.276 this in a drawer. I mean, this is a that's 0:08:09.316 --> 0:08:11.196 the thing I banged my elbow on all the time. 0:08:12.716 --> 0:08:15.196 So it's not about carry a gun. I carry gun 0:08:15.196 --> 0:08:17.276 because we have to. I'd rather be like Andy Griffith 0:08:17.436 --> 0:08:20.396 and just be sharing for that a gun. And he's 0:08:20.796 --> 0:08:23.996 he's just charming in a way that I was. He's disarming, 0:08:23.996 --> 0:08:26.836 he laughs at himself, he's kind of goofy, and he's 0:08:26.876 --> 0:08:29.956 a good detective, and so I immediately sensed, oh wow, 0:08:29.996 --> 0:08:32.796 this guy is going to be an important kind of 0:08:32.876 --> 0:08:36.236 character in the podcast. Why did he care so much 0:08:36.276 --> 0:08:40.556 about this case? I mean, he really gets preoccupied with it. 0:08:40.676 --> 0:08:42.676 I kind of want to use the word obsessed, although 0:08:42.716 --> 0:08:47.076 it's not super respectful, but he's just really intensely driven 0:08:47.116 --> 0:08:49.276 to work on this case. Is there not very much 0:08:49.316 --> 0:08:53.356 interesting crime to solve and Traveler's Rest, well, funny you 0:08:53.396 --> 0:08:56.276 should say that John. I asked John this question. He said, Look, 0:08:57.116 --> 0:09:00.076 Traveler's Rest is like we call it the circle of Wagons. 0:09:00.116 --> 0:09:03.596 It's a few miles across, and our job as constables 0:09:03.716 --> 0:09:08.836 is to push the crime out of the city. And 0:09:09.156 --> 0:09:11.476 that the kind of lawless mountains or what was once 0:09:11.476 --> 0:09:15.316 the lawless Mountains beat a lawless mountains here. This roar 0:09:15.356 --> 0:09:17.676 of a truck would come in and people would pile out, 0:09:17.716 --> 0:09:19.876 and they'd say, we're looking for the law, you know, 0:09:19.956 --> 0:09:22.436 and mountain justice had failed and they had to come 0:09:22.476 --> 0:09:26.756 to into town to find find some law enforcement. And 0:09:26.796 --> 0:09:29.396 so John was basically like within the circle of wagons 0:09:29.396 --> 0:09:33.276 within this town. He felt like that he was a custodianigan, 0:09:33.476 --> 0:09:36.316 someone who was really dependent upon to keep the peace, 0:09:36.876 --> 0:09:39.236 and not a lot did happen, and then this young 0:09:39.276 --> 0:09:45.996 woman vanishes, and I think he feels personally responsible in 0:09:46.036 --> 0:09:47.676 some ways for getting to the bottom of this. And 0:09:48.516 --> 0:09:50.436 you could say it becomes obsessed, but I relate to 0:09:50.476 --> 0:09:53.436 that in a way. It's like you start to get 0:09:53.476 --> 0:09:55.036 a little bit of a mystery and you're not going 0:09:55.076 --> 0:09:57.596 to arrest until you get to it. And so he 0:09:57.636 --> 0:10:00.236 just takes it a lot further than most would, right, 0:10:00.396 --> 0:10:03.116 And so he is trying to solve the mystery of 0:10:03.196 --> 0:10:08.316 Brooke Henson's disappearance and esther appears in his story in 0:10:08.396 --> 0:10:11.796 the end almost by accident, because there are different aliases 0:10:11.836 --> 0:10:15.516 that she's grabbing hold of and Brooke is one of them. Right. Yeah, 0:10:15.556 --> 0:10:18.916 So this the thing that's kind of remarkable about the 0:10:18.956 --> 0:10:22.436 story is he gets the call the Brooke Henson is 0:10:22.476 --> 0:10:26.276 actually up in Columbia, right, and he doesn't really it 0:10:26.316 --> 0:10:28.836 doesn't really make sense that she would vanish for seven 0:10:28.916 --> 0:10:32.196 years and then show up at this school, and he 0:10:32.196 --> 0:10:35.396 sends a police officer. The police officer talks to her 0:10:35.996 --> 0:10:38.716 and he presents her with a series of questions that 0:10:38.796 --> 0:10:41.836 only Brooke would know, and she answers most of them successfully, 0:10:42.396 --> 0:10:45.796 and at that point, you know, you would think he 0:10:45.836 --> 0:10:48.596 just lets it go. But this is where his doggedness 0:10:48.636 --> 0:10:52.196 comes in. He says, no, I want DNA, which I 0:10:52.196 --> 0:10:55.916 think I say in the podcast was ballsy, and somehow 0:10:55.956 --> 0:10:58.396 the New York City cop agrees to it, and then 0:10:58.436 --> 0:11:01.916 she runs. So here's what I find fascinating about John. Like, 0:11:02.316 --> 0:11:04.116 on the one hand, it was kind of crazy of 0:11:04.196 --> 0:11:07.316 him to push for DNA. On the other hand, his 0:11:07.476 --> 0:11:12.076 hunch was right that it's possible that this person was 0:11:12.196 --> 0:11:15.436 so adept at being an impostor that she knew these 0:11:15.516 --> 0:11:19.356 kind of unknowable answers. And so that's the weird thing 0:11:19.356 --> 0:11:24.916 about being an obsessive investigator is that if occasionally your unreasonable, 0:11:24.996 --> 0:11:29.116 obsessive hunch is spot on, then you're going to follow 0:11:29.156 --> 0:11:30.876 it at least the next time or maybe the time 0:11:30.916 --> 0:11:33.796 after that, because you have positive confirmation that you are 0:11:33.876 --> 0:11:37.116 right to be obsessed. And so to me, that was 0:11:37.156 --> 0:11:39.716 a part of John that I could relate to and 0:11:39.716 --> 0:11:43.116 that I understood. I think it's just he was on 0:11:43.116 --> 0:11:45.316 his own train, you know. Esther says, she's on her train, 0:11:45.516 --> 0:11:47.316 he's on his train, and it's not so easy to 0:11:47.356 --> 0:11:52.316 get off of that. Yeah. So there are lots of podcasts, 0:11:52.556 --> 0:11:56.916 especially movies, books in the genre of true crime. Right 0:11:56.956 --> 0:12:00.276 it's sort of a national pastime right now to follow 0:12:00.316 --> 0:12:02.716 some of these cases. There are different choices. You get 0:12:02.796 --> 0:12:05.436 kind of hooked on a narrative. I find that podcasts 0:12:05.436 --> 0:12:09.676 are an especially like engrossing way to enter stories and 0:12:09.796 --> 0:12:13.516 become absorbed in them. Are there any ethical issues that 0:12:13.596 --> 0:12:17.956 arise in this area of reporting? I mean, you're really 0:12:17.996 --> 0:12:21.236 digging into people's lives. These are things that happened a 0:12:21.276 --> 0:12:25.516 long time ago to real people. How do you think 0:12:25.516 --> 0:12:28.236 about that with the story like this? Yeah, I mean 0:12:28.436 --> 0:12:30.796 I think that you have to ask yourself at some 0:12:31.556 --> 0:12:35.556 level what justifies doing this? Is it? Because if the 0:12:35.596 --> 0:12:40.116 answer is strictly entertainment, then I don't think you can 0:12:40.156 --> 0:12:43.916 do it. And so there were a few things that 0:12:43.996 --> 0:12:47.876 I grappled with. One was I talked to this guy, 0:12:47.916 --> 0:12:50.796 ben Ford, who is the chief of police, the current 0:12:50.836 --> 0:12:53.796 chief of police down and Traveler's Rest, who is doing, 0:12:54.196 --> 0:12:56.556 as far as I can tell, a very hard and 0:12:56.596 --> 0:12:58.756 earnest job of still trying to find out what happened 0:12:58.796 --> 0:13:01.716 to Brooke And this is a weird thing. This is 0:13:01.716 --> 0:13:04.276 the only time that's ever happened to me. I interviewed 0:13:04.516 --> 0:13:07.196 John Campbell and or I was about I hadn't even 0:13:07.196 --> 0:13:09.876 interviewed I hadn't even gone to Traveler's Rest yet. And 0:13:09.916 --> 0:13:12.556 I got a message, Jake, this is Ben Ford of 0:13:12.596 --> 0:13:15.196 the Traveler's Rest Police Department. I would like to talk 0:13:15.196 --> 0:13:17.076 to you. And that was because he knew you were 0:13:17.116 --> 0:13:18.916 trying to get in touch with John Gimpbell. He got 0:13:18.996 --> 0:13:20.916 word that I might be doing a story related to 0:13:20.916 --> 0:13:23.676 Brooke Henson say. So I was like, this is weird. 0:13:23.756 --> 0:13:27.516 Like usually on any kind of active investigation with law enforcement, 0:13:27.516 --> 0:13:30.156 as you know, it's like they generally very leery of 0:13:30.156 --> 0:13:32.636 the press. And so I called him and he said, look, 0:13:33.676 --> 0:13:37.356 I'm running an active investigation. If you can get the 0:13:37.356 --> 0:13:39.316 word out about the facts about what we know when 0:13:39.356 --> 0:13:42.436 don't know, I'd be very appreciative. I will share with 0:13:42.476 --> 0:13:45.276 you whatever I've got. So that was encouraging to me 0:13:45.316 --> 0:13:47.556 because I felt like, oh, maybe there's a public service here. 0:13:47.596 --> 0:13:50.556 And then I got in touch with a woman that 0:13:50.676 --> 0:13:53.316 looked for missing people, and then she put me in 0:13:53.316 --> 0:13:57.476 touch with Brook's cousins, and I just asked them straight up. 0:13:57.636 --> 0:14:00.716 I was like, is this something you're comfortable with? And 0:14:00.796 --> 0:14:05.036 they basically said, look, we still want to find her remains, 0:14:05.676 --> 0:14:08.716 we're hopeful that maybe this will help, and we're also 0:14:08.756 --> 0:14:12.836 just that she's not forgotten. And we had that conversation 0:14:12.956 --> 0:14:15.676 and we revisited that in the fact checking part. I 0:14:15.756 --> 0:14:19.436 ran back overall with every aspect of it with them. 0:14:20.236 --> 0:14:23.076 So yeah, I was thinking a lot about that and 0:14:23.156 --> 0:14:25.996 the second part and we'll get to this is Esther's 0:14:26.076 --> 0:14:29.716 treatment in the medium and revisiting that, and I felt 0:14:29.716 --> 0:14:33.156 like there's a place where we can do a good, 0:14:33.196 --> 0:14:37.036 hard look at the way this was played out, and 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:38.756 by taking a second look at it, there may be 0:14:38.836 --> 0:14:41.876 some good that served from this. So it was as 0:14:41.916 --> 0:14:43.916 I was grappling with this kind of looking at those 0:14:43.916 --> 0:14:46.076 other things, that said, you know what, I think there 0:14:46.156 --> 0:14:49.316 is value here in kind of telling the story well. 0:14:49.316 --> 0:14:52.196 And some of this comes down again to timing, right, 0:14:52.276 --> 0:14:54.836 we were talking about that earlier. But when you have 0:14:54.916 --> 0:14:57.636 a cold case like this and a family that is 0:14:57.636 --> 0:15:04.156 still wants to know answers, interest from reporters, podcasters can 0:15:04.196 --> 0:15:06.436 be welcome in a way that it might well not 0:15:06.596 --> 0:15:09.116 have been in the moment, right, this isn't a new story, 0:15:09.116 --> 0:15:11.796 worry anymore. It was a big news story. Yeah, so 0:15:12.516 --> 0:15:16.236 you're coming in at a different time. Yeah, the dust 0:15:16.316 --> 0:15:18.436 is settled a bit. I mean, Esther is able to 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:21.916 talk about this. I mean there's good and bad from that. 0:15:23.436 --> 0:15:25.836 The hard part is it time has passed, so sometimes 0:15:25.876 --> 0:15:27.556 it's hard to get people to remember what they were 0:15:27.556 --> 0:15:30.316 thinking and feeling at the time. Another hard part is 0:15:30.316 --> 0:15:32.636 if they were burned by the media, they don't want 0:15:32.636 --> 0:15:34.156 to talk to you, and you have to spend a 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:35.996 lot of time explaining this is not going to be 0:15:36.036 --> 0:15:40.756 a tabloid treatment of this. But yeah, it's nice to 0:15:40.796 --> 0:15:43.156 be like talking about the Secret Service. I mean, I've 0:15:43.156 --> 0:15:44.996 tried to do with the Secret Service before. The Secret 0:15:44.996 --> 0:15:47.796 Service never talks in my experience, and I got don 0:15:47.916 --> 0:15:49.796 long and basically as at she was like, it's like 0:15:49.836 --> 0:15:52.836 years ago, I'll talk to you, you know, And so yeah, 0:15:52.876 --> 0:15:55.596 there were some definite benefits as well. How did the 0:15:55.636 --> 0:15:59.876 media cover Ester's disappearance once they knew she was missing? Well, 0:16:00.276 --> 0:16:02.676 you know, it's funny because when I first saw the 0:16:02.716 --> 0:16:05.596 media coverage that this story got back in the day, 0:16:05.836 --> 0:16:07.556 I mean, you know, how this is you kind of 0:16:07.556 --> 0:16:09.756 think like this or story has been poured it out 0:16:10.076 --> 0:16:13.836 like I'm late to the party, right, And so but 0:16:13.876 --> 0:16:16.156 then I started taking a look a closer look at 0:16:16.156 --> 0:16:20.516 the way it was reported out, and it was basically 0:16:20.556 --> 0:16:23.716 like you know, fem fatale, It was, you know, very 0:16:23.756 --> 0:16:25.756 much not what you're hearing her say in the opening, 0:16:25.796 --> 0:16:28.156 that she kind of embarked on this path in which 0:16:28.196 --> 0:16:32.076 she kind of was making incrementally bad decisions and was 0:16:32.156 --> 0:16:34.556 we learned in the podcast was dealing with mental health 0:16:34.556 --> 0:16:38.116 and all this that you know, she's portrayed as like 0:16:38.236 --> 0:16:41.316 almost like a Bond villain, you know, as someone who's 0:16:41.316 --> 0:16:44.156 seducing People's a kind of female version of Catch me 0:16:44.196 --> 0:16:46.356 if you can. In fact, that was the play on 0:16:45.956 --> 0:16:50.676 the forty eight Hours version of this. And so the 0:16:50.676 --> 0:16:52.636 thinking is, Okay, is there a way to re examine 0:16:52.636 --> 0:16:53.996 It doesn't mean you let her off the hook. It 0:16:53.996 --> 0:16:55.716 doesn't mean you give her a pass for the laws 0:16:55.756 --> 0:16:58.356 that she broke, But can you look at this and 0:16:58.396 --> 0:17:01.996 see maybe there's a more nuanced portrayal of a real 0:17:02.076 --> 0:17:05.236 human being here and not just the kind of cardboard cutout. 0:17:06.876 --> 0:17:09.516 We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back, 0:17:24.236 --> 0:17:27.836 Welcome back. After we grab some drinks and mingled with 0:17:27.876 --> 0:17:31.556 the crowd, I turned the tables on Emily asked her 0:17:31.596 --> 0:17:35.996 some questions because we do similar work. She often reports 0:17:35.996 --> 0:17:38.836 on criminal justice for the New York Times magazine and 0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:41.756 finds her way into all kinds of interesting and convoluted 0:17:41.836 --> 0:17:45.836 true crime stories. And there's one in particular that I 0:17:45.876 --> 0:17:48.396 wanted to talk to her about, a story that Emily 0:17:48.476 --> 0:17:52.156 spent years reporting on. It involves a young woman named 0:17:52.196 --> 0:17:56.556 Nora Jackson. Nora was convicted as a teenager of killing 0:17:56.556 --> 0:17:59.916 her own mother. She spent several years in prison, and 0:17:59.956 --> 0:18:04.276 then one day her conviction was overturned. Emily became interested 0:18:04.636 --> 0:18:07.516 in how someone like this happens and the role of 0:18:07.556 --> 0:18:11.956 the prosecutor, a woman named Amy Wyrick. Emily wrote about 0:18:11.996 --> 0:18:14.756 Norah's case for the New York Times magazine. Her story 0:18:14.796 --> 0:18:17.916 also appeared in Emily's book Charged. You should check them out. 0:18:18.076 --> 0:18:21.316 We've included links to both in our show notes. Okay, 0:18:21.356 --> 0:18:27.996 back to our conversation, and I'm wondering whether Emily, you 0:18:28.036 --> 0:18:31.036 can just kind of turn back the clock and help 0:18:31.876 --> 0:18:34.316 remind me and us how did you get drawn to 0:18:34.436 --> 0:18:37.676 this story? What did you know initially, and what made 0:18:37.716 --> 0:18:39.516 you think that this was a story you wanted to write. 0:18:40.316 --> 0:18:43.796 So you are a story person who starts with like 0:18:43.876 --> 0:18:48.556 a good sizzly concept of people who faked their ideas 0:18:48.556 --> 0:18:51.676 to go to college. I often, to my detriment, are 0:18:51.756 --> 0:18:54.676 more of an ideas person. And I was interested several 0:18:54.716 --> 0:18:59.996 years ago in prosecutors who had a pattern of breaking 0:18:59.996 --> 0:19:03.636 the rules in a way that harmed the people who 0:19:03.676 --> 0:19:10.436 they were charged with. Prosecuting prosecutors obviously prosecute cases, but 0:19:10.436 --> 0:19:13.636 they're also supposed to be a kind of arbiter of 0:19:13.716 --> 0:19:16.076 justice in their own way. They represent the people. They 0:19:16.116 --> 0:19:20.956 also have responsibilities to uphold all the laws and rules 0:19:20.956 --> 0:19:22.596 in the justice system. And I was interested in the 0:19:22.596 --> 0:19:26.116 prosecutors who cut corners. So there was a prosecutor I 0:19:26.156 --> 0:19:27.996 did a little research. I was like looking around the 0:19:27.996 --> 0:19:31.476 country for a kind of rose gallery of prosecutors. Frankly, 0:19:31.596 --> 0:19:35.396 and at the time, the district attorney in Memphis, which 0:19:35.436 --> 0:19:38.476 is Shelby County, her name was Amy Wyrick, and she 0:19:38.636 --> 0:19:41.996 had a real pattern of failing to disclose evidence in 0:19:42.516 --> 0:19:46.636 cases in which she'd gotten, you know, big convictions, and 0:19:46.956 --> 0:19:50.276 Nora Jackson's case. Once I was like in that world 0:19:50.596 --> 0:19:54.276 jumped out at me, you know, for some similar reasons 0:19:54.276 --> 0:19:57.076 to why you were interested in esther. So, when Nora 0:19:57.276 --> 0:20:01.036 was eighteen, her mother was brutally stabbed death in her home. 0:20:01.276 --> 0:20:04.356 And her mother was a forty year old white stockbroker, 0:20:04.436 --> 0:20:07.676 so it was like an unusual murder and the kind 0:20:07.676 --> 0:20:11.396 of murder that is destab realizing to you know, white 0:20:11.436 --> 0:20:15.676 middle class residence. There was no obvious suspect, and about 0:20:15.676 --> 0:20:19.596 three months after the murder, Amy Wireck charged Nora, the 0:20:19.636 --> 0:20:23.796 eighteen year old daughter, with her mother's killing. Nora didn't 0:20:23.796 --> 0:20:26.236 have a criminal history, but she was known as a 0:20:26.316 --> 0:20:33.516 kind of wild child, and the charges were brought and 0:20:33.636 --> 0:20:36.156 there was a lot of publicity, and then a few 0:20:36.196 --> 0:20:39.596 months later the DNA results came back from the crime scene. 0:20:39.796 --> 0:20:42.116 You know, her mother's blood was everywhere, so there was 0:20:42.116 --> 0:20:44.716 a lot of evidence to test, and in fact, Nora 0:20:44.876 --> 0:20:49.356 was excluded as someone who was part of that crime 0:20:49.396 --> 0:20:52.716 scene in any way, and there were other DNA profiles. However, 0:20:53.596 --> 0:20:57.436 Wyreck prosecuted her anyway, and for a variety of reasons, 0:20:57.516 --> 0:21:02.396 including what was later deemed misconduct on Wyreck's part, Nora 0:21:02.516 --> 0:21:08.516 was convicted and then later the Tennessee Supreme Court actually 0:21:08.516 --> 0:21:11.436 overturned her conviction, and I think we have a little 0:21:11.636 --> 0:21:14.516 clip of Nora talking about finding out about that ruling. 0:21:15.756 --> 0:21:19.436 Three years ago, in a woman's prison outside Memphis, Tennessee, 0:21:19.716 --> 0:21:23.956 Nora Jackson was sitting in her cell watching television en mute. 0:21:23.996 --> 0:21:25.716 You know, they'd have three one three two and three 0:21:25.756 --> 0:21:27.636 three and three dash two is just like a repeat 0:21:27.676 --> 0:21:30.116 of the news in the weather. Her roommate was in 0:21:30.156 --> 0:21:33.396 the cafeteria and Nora wanted to get some privacy. And 0:21:33.436 --> 0:21:36.076 I just was sitting there going to the bathroom and 0:21:36.196 --> 0:21:38.476 just like watching it, and I saw my name come 0:21:38.476 --> 0:21:41.996 across the bottom of the screen and then I was like, 0:21:42.076 --> 0:21:45.676 oh shit. So she turns on the volume. The Tennessee 0:21:45.676 --> 0:21:49.116 Supreme Court has granted Norah Jackson a new trial, and 0:21:49.196 --> 0:21:52.156 she just, honestly, for a few minutes, couldn't believe it. 0:21:52.556 --> 0:21:55.596 Nora Jackson is now awaiting a new trial. And even 0:21:55.636 --> 0:21:59.836 though Nora had just won her appeal, something that rarely 0:21:59.956 --> 0:22:02.076 happens in the state of Tennessee. This is after she 0:22:02.116 --> 0:22:05.556 has spent nine years in prison. Emily Basilon has been 0:22:05.556 --> 0:22:08.796 covering the case and like nobody was there because everybody 0:22:09.236 --> 0:22:12.476 that dinner so I'm like screaming to get out because 0:22:12.516 --> 0:22:15.356 I'm like wanting to get to the phone and nobody's 0:22:15.396 --> 0:22:18.756 there missing. Is something going to eat them? Right? And 0:22:19.756 --> 0:22:23.516 why was Norah in prison in the first place. Nora 0:22:23.716 --> 0:22:26.436 was in prison because she was convicted of murdering her 0:22:26.436 --> 0:22:33.236 mother Jennifer Jackson. Wow, that's an episode of The Daily 0:22:33.316 --> 0:22:36.116 and that was I think Mike Barbarrow somehow like sounds 0:22:36.156 --> 0:22:40.676 different now to me anyway, So go ahead, I want 0:22:40.676 --> 0:22:42.996 to ask you a question as you're telling the stories. 0:22:43.036 --> 0:22:48.676 So she charges Amy Rick, charges Norah with the murder 0:22:48.676 --> 0:22:50.876 of her mother, and then you said, some period of 0:22:50.916 --> 0:22:54.116 time later it comes out that the DNA was excluded. 0:22:54.156 --> 0:22:56.476 So what is the sequence of events? Does she have 0:22:56.636 --> 0:23:01.196 that DNA evidence when she makes the charge. No, Wyrick 0:23:01.316 --> 0:23:04.036 didn't have the DNA results from the crime lab. You 0:23:04.116 --> 0:23:06.756 might wonder why she didn't wait for them to come back. Yes, 0:23:06.836 --> 0:23:10.756 I am wondering, Yes she didn't, but they were available, 0:23:11.196 --> 0:23:13.116 They were part of the record. They were part of 0:23:13.116 --> 0:23:15.916 the evidence that the jury heard, and the jury convicted 0:23:15.996 --> 0:23:20.236 Nora anyway, And I think there are a few explanations 0:23:20.276 --> 0:23:22.836 for that. One was the kind of failed strategy of 0:23:22.876 --> 0:23:25.916 her defense lawyer and that didn't go very well. And 0:23:26.036 --> 0:23:30.596 also the judge in the case admitted people saying all 0:23:30.796 --> 0:23:36.196 kinds of stuff about Nora, like, for example, that you know, 0:23:36.236 --> 0:23:39.356 her boyfriend had crawled in the window just you know, 0:23:39.436 --> 0:23:41.716 one night to have sex with her a couple months 0:23:41.756 --> 0:23:44.996 after her mother was killed. Just all of this irrelevant 0:23:45.196 --> 0:23:50.556 but kind of scurrilous character assassination evidence, and perhaps that 0:23:50.676 --> 0:23:53.356 had an effect on the jury. As you're talking about 0:23:54.116 --> 0:23:57.716 the chargers being placed before the DNA evidence comes back, 0:23:57.756 --> 0:23:59.596 it almost makes me think of a version of the 0:23:59.636 --> 0:24:01.476 media getting out in front of the story that you 0:24:01.476 --> 0:24:03.596 have an idea that this is who this person is, 0:24:03.596 --> 0:24:06.116 they've done this, and then what happens when you find 0:24:06.156 --> 0:24:09.716 evidence that might or ought to give you pause about 0:24:09.756 --> 0:24:13.276 the theories that you've postulated prior to having that evidence. Yeah, 0:24:13.356 --> 0:24:15.556 I mean, you know, one way to think about this 0:24:15.676 --> 0:24:19.676 is tunnel vision for prosecutors that once they've chosen someone, 0:24:20.036 --> 0:24:24.556 there's a lot of impetus, confirmation bias, professional reasons to 0:24:24.636 --> 0:24:27.876 kind of stick with that person as the suspect. And 0:24:27.956 --> 0:24:31.156 that is in fact what happened to Nora. So after 0:24:31.196 --> 0:24:35.636 the Tennessee Supreme Court overturned her conviction. She had a 0:24:35.756 --> 0:24:38.716 kind of second round of like a prolonged kind of 0:24:38.716 --> 0:24:41.716 face off with Amy Wyrick because Wireck was threatening to 0:24:41.756 --> 0:24:46.236 prosecute her again and in order to get a plea bargain, 0:24:46.716 --> 0:24:50.596 and Norah ended up accepting a plea bargain to manslaughter 0:24:50.836 --> 0:24:53.676 because she thought she was going to get out of prison. 0:24:54.116 --> 0:24:56.916 But then it turned out that her lawyers had made 0:24:56.956 --> 0:25:00.316 a mistake in calculating her time and that she actually 0:25:00.356 --> 0:25:03.876 had to remain in prison for fourteen months. So that 0:25:04.076 --> 0:25:08.476 was completely horrible because first of all, she had she'd 0:25:08.476 --> 0:25:11.276 already been in prison I think at that point for 0:25:11.556 --> 0:25:17.116 nine years, and also it was socially for her, really horrible. 0:25:17.276 --> 0:25:19.956 Her world were people in prison who saw her as 0:25:20.036 --> 0:25:22.556 kind of heroic for standing up to Amy Wyrick. You know, 0:25:22.596 --> 0:25:26.356 all these women in prison, so rare to have, especially 0:25:26.356 --> 0:25:29.876 in Tennessee, to have your sentence, your conviction overturned. But 0:25:29.916 --> 0:25:32.876 then she had taken this plea, she'd kind of given 0:25:32.916 --> 0:25:35.716 in in their eyes, and she was back among them, 0:25:35.756 --> 0:25:38.396 so she hadn't even gotten what she thought she was 0:25:38.396 --> 0:25:41.556 going to get. So that happened to be the point 0:25:41.596 --> 0:25:44.516 when I kind of stumbled on this story and I 0:25:44.556 --> 0:25:47.836 wrote Nora a letter in prison. I wrote her a 0:25:47.876 --> 0:25:50.796 bunch of letters, and she wrote back to me a 0:25:50.796 --> 0:25:53.956 couple of times, but I wasn't really sure whether she 0:25:53.996 --> 0:25:55.716 wanted to talk to me, and it actually took me 0:25:55.836 --> 0:25:59.236 ten months to persuade her to meet with me. How 0:25:59.276 --> 0:26:02.436 did you do that? I called her on the phone 0:26:03.876 --> 0:26:05.716 and talked to her a couple of times. It was 0:26:05.876 --> 0:26:09.716 very in and out, like she was responsive, then she wasn't, 0:26:10.196 --> 0:26:12.916 And she had all kinds of reasons to mistrust the 0:26:12.956 --> 0:26:16.356 media because by then she'd been the subject of I 0:26:16.356 --> 0:26:19.516 think a twenty twenty special or maybe forty eight hours, 0:26:19.556 --> 0:26:22.916 I think both, and neither of them had been helpful 0:26:22.956 --> 0:26:26.116 to her at all, and in both cases she had 0:26:26.196 --> 0:26:28.756 kind of been led along, or she said she felt 0:26:28.756 --> 0:26:30.836 like she'd been misled, and then it turned into a 0:26:30.956 --> 0:26:36.516 kind of tabloid you know, very who done it and 0:26:36.996 --> 0:26:40.236 kind of implicating her. I mean, in these situations, there's always, 0:26:40.276 --> 0:26:43.916 I always feel like an unspoken kind of agreement that's made, 0:26:43.956 --> 0:26:46.596 Like you have your interest, which is writing the story, 0:26:46.836 --> 0:26:49.516 and she has her own set of interests. Why she 0:26:49.716 --> 0:26:51.956 ultimately decided she wants to speak with you, she's hoping 0:26:52.356 --> 0:26:55.516 that your story will do something for her. What do 0:26:55.556 --> 0:26:58.396 you think that she hoped your story would do and 0:26:58.516 --> 0:27:01.756 did you feel that your story would in fact do that? Well? 0:27:01.756 --> 0:27:03.716 When I first went to see her in prison, and 0:27:03.756 --> 0:27:06.356 actually I went to Memphis, and then she almost decided 0:27:06.396 --> 0:27:08.116 not to see me, but then she changed her mind 0:27:08.156 --> 0:27:10.876 at the last minutely and we sat down in this 0:27:10.916 --> 0:27:13.396 little classroom at um sh At that point, she was 0:27:13.436 --> 0:27:16.356 at the jail, and what she really wanted to tell 0:27:16.356 --> 0:27:20.316 me about were the black women she was imprisoned with, 0:27:20.436 --> 0:27:23.236 and how much worse off they were, and how much 0:27:24.076 --> 0:27:28.156 how strange she felt about the attention she was getting, 0:27:28.676 --> 0:27:32.036 given that there were these people around her she thought 0:27:32.276 --> 0:27:35.676 deserved attention. So it was that same feeling of like, 0:27:35.716 --> 0:27:38.036 oh my god, there are all these cases, Why am 0:27:38.116 --> 0:27:42.276 I focusing on this one particular person and not these 0:27:42.316 --> 0:27:47.596 other people? And I was. She was very firm and 0:27:48.716 --> 0:27:53.956 clear that other people were more deserving of being interviewed, 0:27:54.036 --> 0:27:56.876 and that she felt that there was something wrong about that. 0:27:57.236 --> 0:28:01.756 And so even though it only drew her to me, 0:28:02.076 --> 0:28:04.996 drew me to her more, I didn't change course. There 0:28:05.036 --> 0:28:08.436 was something sort of impressive about that, because she might 0:28:08.476 --> 0:28:12.516 have wanted to keep the attention for herself, and for 0:28:12.556 --> 0:28:15.396 a long time, I think she was very ambivalent. It 0:28:15.436 --> 0:28:19.196 really wasn't until she had been released, until I had 0:28:19.236 --> 0:28:21.916 really been pursuing her for a couple of years that 0:28:22.036 --> 0:28:26.276 she started trusting me, which I totally understand. I think 0:28:26.356 --> 0:28:30.076 that eventually the idea that it was the New York Times, 0:28:30.116 --> 0:28:32.316 it was interested that I was going to be able 0:28:32.316 --> 0:28:35.196 to tell her story in a way that really got 0:28:35.236 --> 0:28:39.356 across the legal complexity and the wrongdoing on the part 0:28:39.356 --> 0:28:43.436 of the prosecution. I think that she cared about that, 0:28:43.996 --> 0:28:47.956 and Amy Wyrick was not interested in talking to me, was, 0:28:48.236 --> 0:28:52.836 you know, obviously very clearly resistant to my doing the story. 0:28:52.836 --> 0:28:55.876 And that also, I think kind of endeared me to 0:28:56.036 --> 0:28:58.236 Norah because she could see it was sort of like 0:28:59.116 --> 0:29:02.116 I was. It was like a different kind of press 0:29:02.276 --> 0:29:05.876 was coming in, and she appreciated that. Eventually, you had 0:29:05.876 --> 0:29:08.916 asked me why I thought that John Campbell was so 0:29:09.836 --> 0:29:13.356 vehemently interested obsessed when it was this case and that 0:29:13.516 --> 0:29:15.676 was driving this. So I'm going to flip the question 0:29:15.676 --> 0:29:20.156 on you. Why did Amy Wyrick double down on this 0:29:20.236 --> 0:29:22.916 case and give so much attention to it? What was 0:29:23.276 --> 0:29:25.916 as best as you could tell, what was her motivation. Well, 0:29:25.956 --> 0:29:29.356 Wyreck tried this case when she was a prosecutor working 0:29:29.516 --> 0:29:33.356 for the elected district attorney in Shelby County, and it 0:29:33.396 --> 0:29:36.636 made her famous. She was on TV news. She was 0:29:36.676 --> 0:29:42.356 this young woman being this very strong in her eyes 0:29:43.036 --> 0:29:46.916 advocate for justice, you know, standing in the place of 0:29:46.956 --> 0:29:52.116 Norah's mother and convicting someone. And it was it's very, 0:29:52.276 --> 0:29:55.316 very unusual for children to actually kill their parents, and 0:29:55.436 --> 0:29:58.836 especially for daughters to kill their mothers. But for Wyreck 0:29:58.956 --> 0:30:01.556 that was only kind of part of the way of 0:30:01.996 --> 0:30:04.916 talking about the case that she was despite all of 0:30:04.956 --> 0:30:08.796 those obstacles, that she was doing it anyway because this 0:30:08.876 --> 0:30:11.796 was justice. She was really that was her line, and 0:30:11.876 --> 0:30:14.916 she wound up being elected district Attorney in Shelby County 0:30:14.956 --> 0:30:19.076 in twenty fourteen. And I think that Nora's case really 0:30:19.116 --> 0:30:22.396 catapulted her into the kind of front of the community 0:30:22.476 --> 0:30:25.196 in a way that was politically helpful to her. It 0:30:25.236 --> 0:30:29.756 seems that the evidence against Nora was extremely circumstantial, But 0:30:29.836 --> 0:30:34.636 I'm wondering, did you ever have any moments of doubt 0:30:34.716 --> 0:30:39.636 about her innocence? Yeah, I decided that I didn't have 0:30:39.716 --> 0:30:41.956 to know whether she was innocent or not, and I 0:30:42.036 --> 0:30:44.636 kind of set that aside. I mean, Nora would hate 0:30:44.676 --> 0:30:48.316 that if she were here, because it's so deeply important 0:30:48.356 --> 0:30:51.596 to her to be believed, and I completely understand that. 0:30:52.716 --> 0:30:55.076 But I just decided there was so much wrong with 0:30:55.156 --> 0:30:59.836 this case legally speaking, that it was okay that I 0:30:59.916 --> 0:31:04.956 was not standing there arguing for her innocence as her lawyer, 0:31:05.076 --> 0:31:07.156 even as a journalist. I was just telling you the 0:31:07.196 --> 0:31:09.356 story of what had happened to her. And my story 0:31:09.356 --> 0:31:13.636 in the magazine is really about prosecutors hiding evidence, and 0:31:13.676 --> 0:31:15.756 I think that really was sort of how the story 0:31:15.836 --> 0:31:19.356 unfolded in my book as well. Tell us about where 0:31:19.436 --> 0:31:21.956 Nora is now, I mean, give us the quick update. 0:31:22.556 --> 0:31:25.036 So for a while Nora was living in Brooklyn. She 0:31:25.116 --> 0:31:29.076 got out of prison twenty sixteen, and she was actually 0:31:29.076 --> 0:31:31.436 in Brooklyn for a while. But now she is back 0:31:31.476 --> 0:31:35.756 in Memphis. She's you know, it's hard. It's really hard 0:31:35.796 --> 0:31:37.596 to get out of prison after you've been there for 0:31:37.636 --> 0:31:40.516 a while. You kind of have to really restart your life. 0:31:41.556 --> 0:31:44.796 Often people have a kind of prolonged form of PTSD 0:31:46.316 --> 0:31:48.836 that they're figuring out just how to live in the 0:31:48.996 --> 0:31:52.316 real world again. And Nora has no family, so in 0:31:52.356 --> 0:31:55.676 addition to the death of her mother. Her parents were divorced, 0:31:55.716 --> 0:31:57.916 but her father had actually been murdered a year and 0:31:57.956 --> 0:32:00.156 a half before her mother was killed, which is like 0:32:00.276 --> 0:32:03.676 another I know, really and perhaps that it was connected, 0:32:03.676 --> 0:32:06.476 and maybe that's the kind of missing element of the 0:32:06.996 --> 0:32:11.276 unsolved murders all along. But she really didn't have family, 0:32:11.396 --> 0:32:14.996 and so that has been really hard for her to be. 0:32:15.556 --> 0:32:18.916 You know, she got out of prison in her late twenties, 0:32:19.276 --> 0:32:21.396 mid to late twenties, and she had kind of grown 0:32:21.516 --> 0:32:23.796 up in prison, and in some ways that meant that 0:32:23.836 --> 0:32:28.156 she didn't quite grow up. So now she's in Memphis 0:32:28.156 --> 0:32:31.636 and she had a lawyer, or not the child Laura 0:32:31.636 --> 0:32:34.676 I was talking about earlier, but a later lawyer who 0:32:34.836 --> 0:32:38.756 is just a kind of incredibly caring person and so 0:32:38.876 --> 0:32:42.276 right now she is actually working for him in Memphis 0:32:43.356 --> 0:32:46.516 and you know, and getting on her feet, trying to 0:32:46.556 --> 0:32:51.316 get her own place. She also has a dog named Liberty, 0:32:51.956 --> 0:32:55.596 very deliberate name, who I'm very fond of. I actually 0:32:55.596 --> 0:32:57.796 took care of Liberty for a little while long after 0:32:57.836 --> 0:33:00.796 my book came out, just to be clear, and so 0:33:00.956 --> 0:33:03.276 I just went to Memphis to see that I was 0:33:03.316 --> 0:33:05.476 there to work on a different story. But of course 0:33:05.516 --> 0:33:08.476 I wanted to see Nora, and my big question was 0:33:08.516 --> 0:33:11.476 whether Libert was going to remember me, which she did, 0:33:11.476 --> 0:33:14.316 which is great. One thing I will say to you, 0:33:14.356 --> 0:33:17.396 Emily is that there are many journalists who interview people, 0:33:17.796 --> 0:33:20.796 hear their story, and they never call them back or 0:33:20.796 --> 0:33:23.116 hear from them again. And I don't know of another 0:33:23.196 --> 0:33:26.756 journalist who's more committed to treating people as human beings, 0:33:27.396 --> 0:33:29.676 not just for the week or day, but for years 0:33:29.796 --> 0:33:35.676 often afterwards, and it's a rare thing. Thank you. Should 0:33:35.676 --> 0:33:41.036 we take some listener questions? Absolutely? After the break, we 0:33:41.116 --> 0:33:43.996 talked more about Deep Cover, Never Seen Again, and I 0:33:44.036 --> 0:33:59.116 answer a few questions from the audience. We're back next up. 0:33:59.116 --> 0:34:01.956 We took questions from listeners in the audience. We had 0:34:01.996 --> 0:34:04.596 them write their questions out on paper and then put 0:34:04.636 --> 0:34:07.516 them in a bucket. Yes, very old school, I know. 0:34:07.916 --> 0:34:11.516 It was like seventh grade, everyone passing notes. Then someone 0:34:11.556 --> 0:34:14.196 handed the bucket to Emily and she read them aloud. 0:34:15.276 --> 0:34:17.836 Is there anything you wanted to include in the podcast 0:34:17.876 --> 0:34:21.556 that didn't make the cut? Yeah, I mean there was 0:34:21.636 --> 0:34:25.636 a lot. There was a lot probably there when I 0:34:25.676 --> 0:34:29.476 went down to Traveler's Rest, I mean, when I went 0:34:29.476 --> 0:34:32.836 down to Traveler's Rest. Before I connected with Brooks cousins, 0:34:33.556 --> 0:34:37.836 I connected with this husband and wife team, Patrick and 0:34:37.876 --> 0:34:40.676 Tammy Welch, and I didn't end up getting to put 0:34:40.716 --> 0:34:43.236 them in the podcast, and I still feel badly about 0:34:43.236 --> 0:34:47.116 that because what they do is they basically devote all 0:34:47.156 --> 0:34:50.356 their spare time to try to look for people who 0:34:50.356 --> 0:34:52.836 have gone missing, people that have kind of gone off 0:34:52.876 --> 0:34:57.756 the radar of law enforcement, and actively kind of keep 0:34:57.876 --> 0:35:00.876 the search alive. And the first thing they told me 0:35:00.916 --> 0:35:02.876 straight up was like, look, it's great you're doing this 0:35:02.916 --> 0:35:05.956 on brook but there's actually a ton of people that 0:35:06.036 --> 0:35:11.156 are missing in this area. And they were they had 0:35:11.196 --> 0:35:13.076 like a map in their house with all the pin 0:35:13.156 --> 0:35:15.316 points of the people and where they went missing. And 0:35:15.396 --> 0:35:17.156 it wasn't like they were all connected and this was 0:35:17.196 --> 0:35:21.116 some conspiracy. It was just they were like the custodians 0:35:21.116 --> 0:35:24.236 of these people's memory. And then they drove with me 0:35:24.356 --> 0:35:28.276 up to the dark corner where Brooke may have gone missing, 0:35:28.996 --> 0:35:33.156 and the whole thing was so intense for Tammy she 0:35:33.236 --> 0:35:35.796 didn't want to go, but she reluctantly went with us 0:35:35.796 --> 0:35:38.836 in the pickup truck. And it was it was one 0:35:38.836 --> 0:35:40.156 of these scenes where it was kind of late at 0:35:40.236 --> 0:35:42.996 night and were driving down some shadowy roads in the mountains, 0:35:43.236 --> 0:35:44.756 and I just got a sense for like, this is 0:35:44.756 --> 0:35:47.996 how these people spent their weekends. And it just made 0:35:47.996 --> 0:35:50.996 you think about all the stories we can't tell. And 0:35:51.036 --> 0:35:52.476 I kind of get to this at the end that 0:35:52.876 --> 0:35:56.556 we often fixate on very particular types of stories that 0:35:56.676 --> 0:35:58.756 kind of play into the fem fatale or that have 0:35:58.996 --> 0:36:02.876 some sort of Hollywood appeal, But there's all these kind 0:36:02.876 --> 0:36:05.636 of nameless cases of people that go missing. And there 0:36:05.716 --> 0:36:08.196 was just something really poignant and powerful about this couple 0:36:08.196 --> 0:36:11.236 and their pickup truck kind of winding their weight on 0:36:11.316 --> 0:36:13.476 the darkened roods of this county, kind of going to 0:36:13.476 --> 0:36:17.076 the last spots where these people were. And they're doing 0:36:17.116 --> 0:36:19.316 great work, and I hope that they hear a shout 0:36:19.356 --> 0:36:24.236 out for that in this bonus episode. Another listener question. 0:36:24.676 --> 0:36:26.796 One of Estra's lies was that she was a professional 0:36:26.876 --> 0:36:30.796 chess player. So did anyone ever ask Estra to play chess, 0:36:31.276 --> 0:36:34.516 that ever threatened to blow her cover? I know, such 0:36:34.516 --> 0:36:37.636 a crazy thing to make up that there, I get, 0:36:37.716 --> 0:36:40.636 you know, she was apparently a pretty solid chess player, 0:36:40.636 --> 0:36:42.516 because you know from the podcast what happens when she 0:36:42.556 --> 0:36:44.956 says I'm a tennis player, and then she's like, oh shit, 0:36:45.036 --> 0:36:49.116 I don't actually not to play tennis. I did talk 0:36:49.156 --> 0:36:52.916 to one former boyfriend who didn't go on the record, 0:36:52.956 --> 0:36:54.916 but he did play her in chess. He did ask 0:36:54.956 --> 0:37:00.636 her she did beat him. You, Yeah, exactly. I mean 0:37:00.796 --> 0:37:02.796 we're talking about this backstage a second ago. Like I 0:37:02.796 --> 0:37:05.356 would be intimidated if I met if you just said 0:37:05.356 --> 0:37:07.116 I'm a professional chess player, There's no way in hell 0:37:07.116 --> 0:37:11.396 I wouldn't even played checkers with you. So I suspect 0:37:11.436 --> 0:37:18.076 that's scared off enough people that she could pull it off. Yeah. 0:37:18.156 --> 0:37:20.476 How do you think Esther's case would have been handled 0:37:20.516 --> 0:37:25.916 differently today? Well, we kind of we kind of talked 0:37:25.956 --> 0:37:27.996 about this a little bit the way that my mind 0:37:28.076 --> 0:37:32.116 goes to the media, and I just think that I 0:37:32.156 --> 0:37:36.956 would hope that I would hope that the ass that 0:37:36.996 --> 0:37:40.996 we wouldn't just kind of immediately. Look, when you have 0:37:41.036 --> 0:37:43.276 a story as a journalist, right, when someone brings you 0:37:43.356 --> 0:37:48.476 a story and you're operating on impartial information, right, your 0:37:48.516 --> 0:37:52.876 brain spins out. There's vast terra incognita, and we when 0:37:52.876 --> 0:37:54.996 we go on our runs. Oh, I think I talked 0:37:55.036 --> 0:37:56.876 to some of Esther and she might have done that. Well, 0:37:56.916 --> 0:37:59.116 you ask me a question. I don't know, but I 0:37:59.156 --> 0:38:00.636 have an idea of where the story maybe. But that 0:38:00.796 --> 0:38:03.636 story that I have that I'm projecting out into Terra 0:38:03.756 --> 0:38:07.596 Incognita is actually probably based on books I've read and 0:38:07.676 --> 0:38:11.236 crappy movies I've watched, and local news stories I've read, 0:38:11.636 --> 0:38:15.356 and is prompting me to make assumptions about who that 0:38:15.396 --> 0:38:17.236 person is and how the story is in fact going 0:38:17.276 --> 0:38:20.196 to play out based on like probably templates, like the 0:38:20.196 --> 0:38:23.116 fem fatal template. So what happens is you get like 0:38:23.316 --> 0:38:26.996 part way into the reporting, and inevitably you start getting 0:38:27.076 --> 0:38:30.196 facts that challenge the assumptions that you've made in the template. 0:38:30.236 --> 0:38:32.476 And our mutual friend Jack Hit always says, and I 0:38:32.476 --> 0:38:34.876 think this is so wise. He says, as soon as 0:38:34.876 --> 0:38:37.516 the story turns out not being what you thought it was, 0:38:38.236 --> 0:38:41.076 that's when your story begins. But there's dissonance there because 0:38:41.116 --> 0:38:43.036 you're like, oh shit, this isn't the story I thought. 0:38:43.076 --> 0:38:45.076 I'd mean, I told my editor and my producer was 0:38:45.116 --> 0:38:47.196 going to be this, and I promise that, And now 0:38:47.236 --> 0:38:49.036 you have to go back and say it's not quite that. 0:38:49.716 --> 0:38:52.796 And I think that sometimes it's easier when you get 0:38:52.796 --> 0:38:55.916 to that point and just say, wow, it's basically right. 0:38:56.956 --> 0:38:59.676 I mean, she did have three boyfriends in one year, 0:39:00.076 --> 0:39:03.076 and they were at military institutes, so she did kind 0:39:03.076 --> 0:39:06.156 of go through them, and you could see how if 0:39:06.196 --> 0:39:09.356 you just keep pushing and sticking to the preconception have 0:39:09.836 --> 0:39:12.996 you could just plow down that road. And I say 0:39:12.996 --> 0:39:15.596 that with empathy because I feel like, as a journalist, 0:39:15.636 --> 0:39:18.676 I've stared down that and probably done some version of that. 0:39:18.836 --> 0:39:22.756 I would think in this moment now, where there's more 0:39:22.796 --> 0:39:27.596 awareness of the way, you know, we depict among other 0:39:27.716 --> 0:39:32.196 people women in the news and such, that someone would say, hey, 0:39:32.356 --> 0:39:35.756 wait a minute, here is this story that we're progressing on. 0:39:35.876 --> 0:39:38.516 Does it all check out? Are we making assumptions? Are 0:39:38.516 --> 0:39:42.316 we playing into stereotypes and templates that may not be 0:39:42.556 --> 0:39:45.676 one hundred percent justified. That's why I would hope we 0:39:45.676 --> 0:39:48.916 would play out differently today. Yeah, I mean some of 0:39:48.956 --> 0:39:53.636 this is it just really depends on Esther's honesty. I 0:39:53.636 --> 0:39:56.356 mean I think that that was a really I'm going 0:39:56.396 --> 0:39:58.636 to use the word lucky. Maybe that's not right, But 0:39:58.836 --> 0:40:02.196 somewhere in the alchemy of your interviewing her and her 0:40:02.436 --> 0:40:07.596 reflecting there's some like pretty gritty candor that comes across right, 0:40:08.156 --> 0:40:11.116 I think. And I would also say that like in 0:40:11.196 --> 0:40:13.316 fairness to people that were reporting her on back then, 0:40:13.956 --> 0:40:16.156 Let's be honest, this was a person who had his 0:40:16.156 --> 0:40:19.476 history of not being candid when she was younger. Now 0:40:19.556 --> 0:40:21.956 is a different story, she's a professor, it's a different life. 0:40:22.196 --> 0:40:24.076 But at the time, this is someone who had been 0:40:24.076 --> 0:40:26.436 a serial identity thief, who had told people that she 0:40:26.636 --> 0:40:28.876 was a chess champion when she was in fact not, 0:40:29.236 --> 0:40:33.276 who had told lies to her boyfriends, etc. And so 0:40:33.636 --> 0:40:36.156 I think that's the really tricky part about telling a 0:40:36.196 --> 0:40:39.756 story with an unreliable narrator is that you must be skeptical, 0:40:40.036 --> 0:40:42.716 you must be dubious. You can't let them off the hook. 0:40:42.996 --> 0:40:46.116 But that doesn't give you that blank check to project 0:40:46.196 --> 0:40:49.396 whatever you want upon them. And so, yeah, it's easy 0:40:49.436 --> 0:40:51.796 for me to say that now twenty years later looking back, 0:40:51.876 --> 0:40:56.036 But but you've learned a thing or two. Okay, speaking 0:40:56.076 --> 0:40:59.636 of compulsive liars, what about who am I going to say, 0:40:59.796 --> 0:41:03.076 George Santos? Do you have a better understanding of what 0:41:03.236 --> 0:41:07.396 motivates people like him? I think George is his own 0:41:07.436 --> 0:41:14.036 special creature. We can probably all agree on that. Yeah, no, 0:41:14.796 --> 0:41:17.476 is there a short answer. I mean, I don't. I 0:41:17.476 --> 0:41:19.476 don't presume to know what's going on with that guy. 0:41:19.796 --> 0:41:27.436 I do I think that I think with Esther I did. 0:41:27.756 --> 0:41:31.596 I did kind of understand it. Like I don't know 0:41:31.676 --> 0:41:34.196 that Esther agreed with my assessment of it, But I 0:41:34.236 --> 0:41:37.596 feel like, to some extent, we grew up in a 0:41:37.636 --> 0:41:40.716 certain town with certain friends and family, and we go 0:41:40.756 --> 0:41:43.476 away to college, we moved to a different place, and 0:41:43.516 --> 0:41:47.676 we enjoy being someone different in small ways. And that 0:41:47.716 --> 0:41:50.156 doesn't mean that we always lie about it, but I 0:41:50.196 --> 0:41:54.836 think that sometimes it's born from this desire to remove 0:41:54.876 --> 0:41:57.876 ourselves from a place where we were. And I think 0:41:57.876 --> 0:42:00.596 that what happened in Esther's story in particular, is that 0:42:00.956 --> 0:42:03.276 the law enforcement looked at is there must be some 0:42:03.356 --> 0:42:08.156 sort of kind of deeper, more methodical, devious play here 0:42:08.276 --> 0:42:11.676 of espionage or something. And to me, it like just 0:42:11.716 --> 0:42:16.996 spoke to a more human impulse to just have space 0:42:17.076 --> 0:42:20.356 and reinvent. And that is not again to excuse it 0:42:20.516 --> 0:42:23.236 or to say that it's all right, but to try 0:42:23.276 --> 0:42:27.236 to understand it as a kind of basic human desire 0:42:27.356 --> 0:42:30.116 that just kind of, as she says, ran out of 0:42:30.156 --> 0:42:32.796 control in her case. So yeah, in some ways the 0:42:32.796 --> 0:42:36.396 answers yes, But with Santos, I don't know, it's in 0:42:36.476 --> 0:42:40.196 his own category. What led to the media thinking Esther 0:42:40.396 --> 0:42:43.636 was a potential spy when the story broke Yeah, so, 0:42:43.956 --> 0:42:46.556 I mean it starts off. I was talking to a 0:42:46.636 --> 0:42:49.636 listener in the audience during the intermission and we're kind 0:42:49.636 --> 0:42:53.716 of on the same page. It started off with a 0:42:54.076 --> 0:42:57.676 kind of John Campbell trying to come up with an 0:42:57.676 --> 0:43:00.036 explot It didn't make sense, right, It doesn't make sense. 0:43:00.036 --> 0:43:02.916 Why do you enroll at college is a different name, 0:43:04.156 --> 0:43:06.436 and there's no obvious game to be made for it, 0:43:06.476 --> 0:43:09.436 and so in the absence of that knowledge, start putting 0:43:09.436 --> 0:43:11.836 together other possible theories. Oh, she's dated two guys from 0:43:11.876 --> 0:43:14.196 West Point and the shipman. Maybe it's this. I mean, 0:43:14.276 --> 0:43:16.036 in some ways, that's what detectives are supposed to do. 0:43:16.036 --> 0:43:19.236 They're supposed to speculate. But what happened was, for those 0:43:19.236 --> 0:43:22.756 of you that listen to know, is that when they 0:43:22.756 --> 0:43:24.716 were trying to get the word out about the case, 0:43:25.276 --> 0:43:27.836 the police chief in Traveler's Rest of the time told 0:43:27.956 --> 0:43:30.476 John he should owe the detective, he should open the 0:43:30.476 --> 0:43:32.956 file and feel free to talk to the press. And 0:43:32.996 --> 0:43:35.436 that's when John started to air some of his theories 0:43:35.516 --> 0:43:38.916 about espionage, and there was a local news station that 0:43:39.036 --> 0:43:42.436 ran some of them, and then there was a kind 0:43:42.436 --> 0:43:46.116 of middleman who job it was was to find interesting 0:43:46.116 --> 0:43:48.116 local stories and selve them to the national media. And 0:43:48.156 --> 0:43:50.476 he quickly wrote up a press release based on this 0:43:50.556 --> 0:43:55.596 impartial information, and three days later later it was running nationally. 0:43:56.036 --> 0:43:58.596 And so the story just kind of got a bit 0:43:58.636 --> 0:44:01.476 ahead of itself. And that that's how I mean, that's 0:44:01.476 --> 0:44:03.516 what we do an episode four, we kind of connect 0:44:03.596 --> 0:44:06.156 the dots of this pipeline of how it comes from 0:44:06.236 --> 0:44:11.756 kind of you know, speculation to kind of headlines. Yeah, 0:44:11.836 --> 0:44:15.956 sou new question. Part of the story is themed around 0:44:15.996 --> 0:44:19.636 tough mental health challenges and also running away. What advice 0:44:19.676 --> 0:44:21.636 do you think Esther might give to someone in a 0:44:21.676 --> 0:44:24.836 similar situation? You know? This is It's interesting because when 0:44:24.836 --> 0:44:29.356 we first started talking to Esther, I'm not sure how 0:44:29.356 --> 0:44:31.876 exactly I posed it, but sometimes I'll often say this 0:44:31.916 --> 0:44:33.156 is a version of like when I was asking you 0:44:33.156 --> 0:44:35.196 before about nor like what do you want out of 0:44:35.196 --> 0:44:38.356 the story, because it's just you don't always get an 0:44:38.356 --> 0:44:43.036 honest answer, but it's helpful sometimes you do. And she said, look, 0:44:44.876 --> 0:44:51.436 I was suffering from real mental health issues. And I 0:44:51.476 --> 0:44:53.876 think that I felt and I made some bad choices, 0:44:53.916 --> 0:44:58.436 and if I had had someone to talk to, OH, 0:44:58.476 --> 0:45:00.236 I could have been honest about what was going on, 0:45:00.436 --> 0:45:03.236 and I had been gotten some help earlier, I might 0:45:03.276 --> 0:45:07.596 have made some better some better choices. And so I 0:45:07.636 --> 0:45:10.076 think that she looks at this as situation of what 0:45:10.196 --> 0:45:14.396 happens to kind of anxiety and desperation, and she has 0:45:14.396 --> 0:45:18.116 social anxiety when it's kind of unchecked and left left 0:45:18.156 --> 0:45:21.196 to kind of spiral with no help. And so to me, 0:45:21.236 --> 0:45:22.796 I think that was a large part of the motivation 0:45:22.836 --> 0:45:30.316 of her, of her of her talking about the story, 0:45:31.196 --> 0:45:35.356 and she's now currently it's interesting that this is her 0:45:35.396 --> 0:45:38.236 big thing, is like advocating for mental health kind of 0:45:38.276 --> 0:45:40.596 premptively before people go off the rails and end up 0:45:40.676 --> 0:45:43.556 in incarcerated. You know. One thing that strikes me about 0:45:43.676 --> 0:45:46.916 Esther and Nora is that they had really strange things 0:45:46.956 --> 0:45:49.796 happened to them that they participated in, but that like 0:45:50.316 --> 0:45:52.996 also are just hard to explain. And I think there 0:45:53.076 --> 0:45:57.276 is something about having someone just lay out your story clearly. 0:45:58.596 --> 0:46:01.076 Noura sometimes says that she just like feels like she 0:46:01.116 --> 0:46:03.316 can just take the magazine and hand it to people 0:46:03.476 --> 0:46:07.796 just as an explanation of what happened. Anyway, I wonder 0:46:07.836 --> 0:46:10.916 if that's something that helpful to esther, and I mean, 0:46:11.036 --> 0:46:15.036 probably it is, right, I think so. I mean, I 0:46:15.076 --> 0:46:19.516 didn't you know, we did this very intense session with 0:46:19.556 --> 0:46:22.356 her when before it came out, where we went back 0:46:22.356 --> 0:46:24.716 over it. I read back what other people said about her, 0:46:24.756 --> 0:46:27.356 and I read back what I said to her, and 0:46:27.436 --> 0:46:30.036 it was it was hot and it was intense. She 0:46:30.156 --> 0:46:32.836 was not happy with some parts of it. But I 0:46:32.876 --> 0:46:37.516 think that that even that even that conversation was a 0:46:37.556 --> 0:46:41.956 conversation that she hadn't had in any of the previous 0:46:42.076 --> 0:46:45.036 media treatments of it, And so I think that there 0:46:45.156 --> 0:46:46.676 was When we talked to her a few days later, 0:46:46.716 --> 0:46:49.236 she's like, I appreciate that we had at least the 0:46:49.316 --> 0:46:52.876 chance to do that, and she was, but it's awkward. 0:46:52.916 --> 0:46:54.396 I could see why hot people don't want to do 0:46:54.476 --> 0:46:56.956 it because it wasn't fun. It is not fun, you know. 0:46:57.316 --> 0:46:59.476 Last question, Yeah, it's kind of related to what we're 0:46:59.476 --> 0:47:02.396 talking about. How do you recognize your past experiences and 0:47:02.436 --> 0:47:05.076 traumas while covering a story and work to keep them 0:47:05.196 --> 0:47:11.356 from influencing your interpretation and telling of the story. Wow. Well, 0:47:11.396 --> 0:47:13.476 I mean, I'll start by saying that I don't think 0:47:13.516 --> 0:47:15.836 I've had anything as traumatic happened to me as esther 0:47:15.956 --> 0:47:18.636 had with I mean the loss of her mother at 0:47:18.636 --> 0:47:20.596 that age. And if you've listened to the podcast, you 0:47:20.676 --> 0:47:24.316 know how parents, how her parents divorced and she was struggling. 0:47:26.356 --> 0:47:29.636 You know, it's interesting. I did say to her at times, like, look, 0:47:29.676 --> 0:47:32.036 I get it. I didn't say I get it. I 0:47:32.036 --> 0:47:37.316 said I I am sympathetic because I have had anxiety before, 0:47:37.596 --> 0:47:40.556 but I don't think i've had it like you. And 0:47:40.596 --> 0:47:44.196 so I think that it's actually important not to assume 0:47:44.276 --> 0:47:48.996 that you've had their experience, because that's the problem. Like, 0:47:49.596 --> 0:47:51.436 you know, if I start to let myself think that, like, oh, 0:47:51.476 --> 0:47:53.956 I've had anxiety too, and I didn't make up X 0:47:54.076 --> 0:47:56.876 number of identities, then I'm not on some level getting it. 0:47:58.076 --> 0:48:02.636 So I think that it's I think that you have 0:48:02.716 --> 0:48:06.156 to the starting point almost has to be that I'm 0:48:06.156 --> 0:48:08.676 not seeing this the way you see it, but like, 0:48:09.236 --> 0:48:11.596 try to help me see it, right. I mean, I 0:48:11.676 --> 0:48:15.116 think you're talking about empathy and one and recognizing the 0:48:15.156 --> 0:48:18.076 limits of empathy in terms of pretending to stand in 0:48:18.156 --> 0:48:21.556 someone's shoes, right. I mean, empathy is a tool for 0:48:21.676 --> 0:48:23.796 journalists like us, but I think we also have to 0:48:23.796 --> 0:48:27.876 be really careful and how we handle it totally. I mean, 0:48:27.916 --> 0:48:29.596 I think that's why it's important. You've got to talk 0:48:29.636 --> 0:48:32.236 to the other family members. And there's many things that 0:48:32.316 --> 0:48:35.276 weren't included in this podcast, things that like, in some 0:48:35.316 --> 0:48:37.796 ways the most you could say, some of the most 0:48:37.836 --> 0:48:40.276 significant things that that are part of a story, the 0:48:40.396 --> 0:48:43.556 things that are actually not included because you've debated at 0:48:43.676 --> 0:48:46.396 nauseum about whether or not to include them, and they 0:48:46.396 --> 0:48:51.156 would be interesting, but you feel you can't include them. 0:48:51.276 --> 0:48:54.876 So yeah, I feel like every twist in turn is 0:48:54.916 --> 0:48:57.156 like some sort of dilemma in which you know and 0:48:57.156 --> 0:48:58.996 you're getting back on Twitter, Oh you didn't do this, 0:48:59.036 --> 0:49:02.796 you do that, and it's like, yeah, I had a 0:49:02.836 --> 0:49:05.876 reason for it. Yeah, you're all right. You know, we're tried, 0:49:05.996 --> 0:49:08.996 Like we told one version of the truth, the version 0:49:08.996 --> 0:49:10.756 of the truth as best we could see it. And 0:49:10.796 --> 0:49:13.476 that's where the team of people, the four of us, 0:49:13.556 --> 0:49:17.956 sat down and went through this understanding, damn well, there's 0:49:18.036 --> 0:49:21.676 no entirely objective way to tell a story, and you 0:49:21.716 --> 0:49:24.476 want to tell it as compellingly as you possibly can, 0:49:24.756 --> 0:49:27.156 so that we have the clicks that justify season four. 0:49:28.916 --> 0:49:35.956 And yet at the same time, you know that you're 0:49:35.996 --> 0:49:39.516 telling just one version of the truth, and you're going 0:49:39.556 --> 0:49:41.476 to get it from one side to the other. And 0:49:41.636 --> 0:49:44.396 as my wife says to me, it just has to 0:49:44.436 --> 0:49:47.356 be a version of the truth that you can live 0:49:47.396 --> 0:49:49.556 with even if no one else likes, which is really 0:49:49.556 --> 0:49:52.476 hard to do, but that's the goal. I think. Yes, 0:49:52.596 --> 0:49:54.676 I feel like I have heard that line from Kasha 0:49:54.676 --> 0:49:56.076 a number of times from you, and it's like in 0:49:56.116 --> 0:49:58.396 my head too, which I really appreciate because Kasha is 0:49:58.476 --> 0:50:01.716 very wise. Jake, this has been so much fun. I 0:50:01.756 --> 0:50:05.076 am really looking forward to season four. Thank you so much. 0:50:05.076 --> 0:50:12.516 In congratulations, thanks for listening to this special live episode 0:50:12.516 --> 0:50:15.036 of a deep Cover. I want to express my heartfelt 0:50:15.036 --> 0:50:18.596 thanks to Emily for a great conversation. We'll have another 0:50:18.636 --> 0:50:22.076 episode coming out next month. I'll be talking with Ben Ford, 0:50:22.236 --> 0:50:25.276 the current chief of Police and Traveler's Rest, all about 0:50:25.316 --> 0:50:29.076 Brooke Henson and the continued surge for closure in that case, 0:50:37.916 --> 0:50:39.956 and I have a favor to ask. It'll only take 0:50:39.956 --> 0:50:43.596 you about two minutes, I promise. If you like deep Cover, 0:50:44.116 --> 0:50:47.636 please leave review on Apple Podcasts. It helps other people 0:50:47.676 --> 0:50:50.156 find the show, it gets the word out, and it 0:50:50.236 --> 0:50:52.876 helps us make the case that yes, there should be 0:50:52.916 --> 0:50:57.596 a season four and beyond. Thank You. Deep Cover is 0:50:57.636 --> 0:51:01.116 produced by Amy Gaines and Jacob Smith. This episode was 0:51:01.276 --> 0:51:05.876 edited by Sophie Crane, mastering by Sarah Brugere. Our show 0:51:05.956 --> 0:51:09.676 art was designed by Seancarney. Original scoring and our theme 0:51:09.796 --> 0:51:13.596 was composed by Luis Gara. Special thanks to Nicole Morano, 0:51:13.876 --> 0:51:19.116 Jason Gambrell, Mia Lobell, Greta Con, Jacob Weisberg, and Karen Shakerjee. 0:51:19.836 --> 0:51:23.836 I'm Jake Albern. I want to remind you that when 0:51:23.836 --> 0:51:26.636 you sign up for Pushkin Plus, you'll get access to 0:51:26.716 --> 0:51:30.196 binge drops of future seasons of deep Cover and exclusive 0:51:30.196 --> 0:51:33.916 content from other Pushkin true crime hits. Check out Pushkin 0:51:34.036 --> 0:51:37.276 dot fm or the Apple Show page for more information.