1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to It could Happen Here, a podcast where we 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: talk about things falling apart, and this week we're talking 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: about our ability to have things that that don't get 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: co opted by fascists falling apart. Garrison, Hello, take us, 5 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: take us away. Yes, so today we're going to talk 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: about kind of why maybe it's great not to seed 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: any aesthetic ground to fascists anytime it's uncomfortable to do. 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: So we've brought on someone who I found on Twitter 9 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: who wrote a very very great article about some kind 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: of ongoing debate and drama around like anarchists symbols um 11 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: and fascists trying to use symbols um. But I'm we 12 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: are talking to a black ram. Hello, Hey, how's ills things? 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm actually I'm actually doing okay, I've been 14 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: I've been looking forward to this chat for a while. 15 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: So yes, if um, if people are unfamiliar, it looks 16 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: like the past few weeks people have really freaked out 17 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: about an eight pointed star. People really really seem concerned 18 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: about it. Um. Yeah, this has a lot tied in 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: with what's been happening in Ukraine, because, as always happens 20 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: when there's a new story that has anything to do 21 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: with the far right. UM people got acquainted with some 22 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: symbols that they had not been aware of before, particularly 23 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: the son and rad, which is a common symbol that 24 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: you'll see on members of the as Off Battalion kind 25 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: of some other far right organizations in Ukraine as well 26 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: as elsewhere. You know, the christ Church shooter wore a 27 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: son and rad, and then they started identifying all sorts 28 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: of things that they felt looked like san and rad's 29 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: everywhere on the internet, and things kind of spiraled from there. Well, 30 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: and I think there's actually a little bit more to 31 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: it than that. Well, we're gonna get into We're gonna 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: get into black Ram's article here shortly, but yeah, I 33 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: kind of first just briefly go through I think why 34 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: it's this kind of why this debate happened now, because 35 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: the debate has happened before, but it's never gotten this 36 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: like intense. A big part of this his tied to 37 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: Russia's invasion of Ukraine and everyone wanting to play like 38 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: where's Waldo with symbols being like can you spot the 39 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: son and red on the on the pictures of the 40 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: ace Off Battalion UM, and I think the other. So like, 41 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: so everyone's already kind of looking for symbols as like 42 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: a fun game. But the other thing that's kind of 43 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: happening is because of the Russia Dugan connection. Of Dugan's 44 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: like a political fascist writer who's a very influential inside Russia. UM. 45 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: But because of the Russia Dugan connection, some people are 46 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: now seeing Dugan's symbol, the Uration Square for the first time, right, 47 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: And now that they've seen the square, they're seeing anarchists 48 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: using the Chaos Star, which looks a little similar. They're 49 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: they're not the same, but they're because they just because 50 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: they just learned about the Uration Square. Now they're seeing 51 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: the Chaos Star, and they've never really noticed the castAR before. 52 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: Maybe they're they just don't really care about what symbols 53 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: random people use. But now that they see the Uration 54 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: symbol and they see the chaostar, they're making this connection 55 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: here and they think this is a new development, right, 56 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: they think this is like like they're they're they're asking themselves, like, 57 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: why are anarchists suddenly using this fascist symbol UM, which 58 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: they either think to themselves or they think out loud 59 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: on Twitter dot com. Uh, which is really rich because 60 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: I mean, anarchists have been using the chaost are longer 61 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: than Dugan has been using his uration Square. And if 62 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: you have been watching anarchists for any amount of time 63 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: on the internet, I know you you would have seen 64 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: them using the chaostar Um. It's not it's not a 65 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: new development by any means. But because everyone's trying to 66 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: like where's Waldo and oh since their way through the war, 67 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: they're they're kind of drawing these false connections, which is 68 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: kind of unfortunate because there is actually some interesting things 69 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: to talk about in terms of how Doogan did kind 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: of base his design off of Michael moore Cox Chaos 71 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: Star and a whole bunch of stuff around like why 72 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: anarchists use the chaos Star, and you know, there's a 73 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: whole there's there's a nice debate to be had there 74 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: around fascists always in asserting themselves in these subcultures and 75 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: trying to gain ground, whether it be like the punk scene, 76 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: the industrial music scene, uh, you know online gaming, right, 77 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: Fascists always try to do this just often we want 78 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: to we try to push back on that, right, like 79 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: Nazi punks fuck off. But it seems specifically with the 80 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: Chaos Star a whole bunch of people just want to 81 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: cave and let them kind of take this symbol, which 82 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: is I know, I think not not a not a 83 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: great instinct um, but to to kind of kind of 84 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: talk about this and other kind of background stuff, Like 85 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: I said, we brought on a black ram Hello to 86 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: help to help talk about this. So yeah, what kind 87 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: of prompted you to write your article? I guess, um, 88 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: you know, watching this debate kind of go down, what 89 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: kind of actually just like what was what was the 90 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: straw that broke the camel's back and being like, Okay, 91 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: now I need to write like a decently long nicle 92 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: on this topic. I think I've said this on like 93 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: on on Twitter a little while before writing the actual article. 94 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: But I think the the spark was a friend from 95 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: a guy you may or may not have seen him around. 96 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: He's like somebody he's like well dem stock but but 97 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: but he has like anarchists leading on his bio, which 98 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: I guess sort of which I guess sort of communicates 99 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: the idea that he would probably like anarchism if he 100 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: did not consider it to be impractical. But anyways, I 101 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: actually I kind of wavered on the idea of covering 102 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: it at all. I thought it would. I thought it 103 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: would only go for like a few days, and it 104 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: was sort of a Johnny come Lately by maybe a 105 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: day or so. Admittedly they figured it would be sort 106 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: of ephemeral, but there's things I sort of kept seeing. 107 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: But in the midst of writing it, there was like 108 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: some tanky who went even further and made the link 109 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: to the Kao star and I think it was the 110 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: logo of the Sith Empire from certain Star Wars media. Yeah, 111 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: we'll talk, we'll talk about that. It's it's like, well, 112 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: it's like, well, one of six lines and they're not 113 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: even arrows, they're just like blocks in like a sort 114 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: of hexagonal shape. But it's like the same guys really 115 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: like the idea that the logo of the Ukrainian Armed 116 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 1: Forces is actually the iron Cross. Yeah. A big chunk 117 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: of this, I think kind of the prehistory of why 118 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: this became such a specific problem started with kind of 119 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: Unite the Right in the period after that, where you 120 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: had all these new fascist groups on the ground in 121 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: the United States and they all had their symbols, and 122 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: you know, I was a part of this. To to 123 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: the degree that there's some culpability here um. A number 124 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: of researchers, including myself, we're warning people like, hey, there's 125 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: some like symbols that people are are taking to right 126 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: wing gathering and and they're claiming to be normal conservatives, 127 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: and these are these are symbols of groups like the 128 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: Fineest Priesthood or groups like different kind of fascist organizations, 129 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: and you might not be aware of them, and so 130 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: you should know what kind of these, you know, the 131 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: Khakistan flag or whatever means, because people are trying to 132 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: kind of signpost their sympathy to these extreme groups. And 133 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: that I think that was important because those people were 134 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: legitimate problems and um, they were trying to kind of 135 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: stealthily hide they're very radical right wing sympathies behind some 136 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: like obscure images. But the problem is that it got 137 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people looking not just looking for fascist 138 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: symbols and everything, but also looking for the clout that 139 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: comes from like pointing something like that out. And I 140 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: think that's that's kind of the root of a lot 141 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: of these these problems. And it's not surprising that it 142 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: happened with Dugan's symbol that there's no absolutely not um 143 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: because it does like again, if you're just like kind 144 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: of a casual observer. It does look a lot like 145 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: the Chaos Star, and it makes its point in star 146 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: with arrows, Yeah, and it makes If you know anything 147 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: Aboutdugan's philosophy, Alexander Dugan is a essentially a Russian political 148 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: theorist and author. Um. There's a lot that's kind of 149 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: said about how close he is to Putin. He certainly 150 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: was at one point closer to Putin. There's a lot 151 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: of debate as to whether or not Putin kind of 152 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: saw him as more of like a useful uh person 153 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: to kind of a useful propaganda Oregan, or whether or 154 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: not he really bought into what Dugan was saying. But 155 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: Dugan is and was a really big advocate of like 156 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: what he called like multipolar um international politics. Multipolarity, which 157 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: is this idea that like the United States should not 158 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: be a the hegemonic power in the world right, which 159 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: it kind of was after the fall of the Soviet units. 160 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: This idea that there should be a bunch of equivalent 161 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: powers um, which is number one. You can see how 162 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: a lot of folks on the left would be drawn 163 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: in by that, even if they weren't particularly fans of Hohoton, 164 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: just the idea that like, oh, well, yeah, it's it's 165 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: been a problem that the United States, it's his massive 166 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: hegemonic power. Perhaps it would be better if there were 167 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: a bunch of equivalent powers, um and And it's one 168 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: of those things where there's a logic to that, but 169 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: it does kind of require ignoring all of the times 170 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: in the past when we had a multipolar world and 171 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: there was tremendous violence. There's a root error in this 172 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: sort of pathway which sort of like refuses to deal 173 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: with imperialism as a global system. Yeah. The reason that's 174 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: a hang up is because it once you once you 175 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: think of imperialism as a global system, you you then 176 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: have to move on to the idea that it's a 177 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: global system that ven has to be dismantled globally. Yeah, 178 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: you can't quite do that with Capada because it implicates 179 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: nations that are supposed to serve as like moments of 180 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: world historic progress against like hegemonic capitalism. And it is 181 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: one of those spooks of the mind that people kind 182 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: of have to do away with well, which the adoicist 183 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: movement sort of does pretty successfully because that mostly comes 184 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: from the fact that it starts off from the position 185 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: of like the state as an actual sort of structural presence. 186 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: It's sort of funny that, like the Marxist argument is 187 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: usually down to like hyper focused on the state and 188 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: hierarchy is idealist, which is odd when you consider that 189 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: hierarchy and the state are very much material in the 190 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: same way that capitalism itself is. So it's like it's 191 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: it feels more like a sort of argument that's like, well, 192 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: my materialism is the materialism. Your materialism is in fact 193 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: the form of idealism. I think with with that, we're 194 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: gonna go on a quick a quick quick head break, 195 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: and then we're gonna come back, and I think we 196 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: should probably now talk about like the origins of the 197 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: Chaos Star and and Michael Morcock and discordianism, um, and 198 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: then we'll kind of get into the kind of current 199 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: current debate on it. Uh so more so anyway, here's 200 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 1: here's here's some here's some ads for your ears coming 201 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: in through the ear waves. Yeah, yeah, it's time. It's 202 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: time to talk about more time for more so. Um, 203 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: I guess uh black Craft, you you actually did a 204 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 1: pretty good insistinct kind of thing is on how the 205 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: chaost Star came into being initially via Michael Moorecock. Don't 206 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: it just like as brief briefly talk about kind of 207 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: how he came up with the symbol for his books 208 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: and stuff. Okay, so full disclosure, I haven't really read 209 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: the books themselves. I've read some Michael Moorecock A lot 210 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: of what a lot of my familiarity from him is 211 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: pretty secondhand. One of the main things of that is 212 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: serifungaling like this, this sort of eighties band that I 213 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: sort of think back to. Their whole vibe is more 214 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: Cox works. But but but anyways, the reason why the 215 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: chaos star is the shape that it is is because 216 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: what it's supposed to represent is meant to extend outward endlessly. Yeah, 217 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: the counter symbol for order is a single a single 218 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: upward pointing arrow voted with Funny enough, when I thought 219 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: about that, I fought about the twas room or like tear. 220 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: It doesn't really have to say meaning, but it's like 221 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: upward pointing arrow in a symbolic context. That's the other 222 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,599 Speaker 1: example I have. But but that upward pointing arrow significies 223 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: a straight s narrow expression of where possibility goes, where 224 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 1: potential sort of goes, which creates structure the other the 225 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: Chaos Star, by contrast, has like the eight directions are 226 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: meant to represent all directions in a circular sort of space, 227 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: like a comp of sorts, and the energy and the 228 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: potential and possibility goes out and all of them. We 229 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: have no set path, no definite limit, no boundaries. It 230 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: just goes. It just sort of goes out there. It's 231 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: little wonder why the chaos magic movement embraced it for 232 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: a very similar set of reasons. Yes, it's because even 233 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: though it is kind of a myth that there's absolutely 234 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: no rules in chaos magic, what is true is that 235 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: you can explore very a very very broad and like 236 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: almost limitless range of like practical possibilities within that movement 237 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: and that sort of within that sort of frame. It's 238 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: a it's a very like post structuralist, post modern view 239 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: of it, but modern is how I've heard it described. 240 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: And kind of getting back to the like what morecock 241 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: was in brief, because I do you think we need 242 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: to kind of give an overview of who he is? 243 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: Um he's still alive. Um, last I checked, at least 244 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: he is alive. I I heard him talking at an 245 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: Anarchist sci fi conference a few weeks ago. If you 246 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: didn't immediately know who he was, he is the most 247 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: influential fantasy author you have not heard of? He he 248 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: He is like a George RR. Martin level of influence, 249 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: if not significantly more so. Like he's he some people 250 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: will say he's the most influential fantasy author since Tolkien. UM. 251 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: And among his you've you've noted the band Sirith Ungle 252 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: if you've, if you've been a fan of of any 253 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: of the Warhammer games, Um, he's a huge influence on 254 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: that because the thing that he created was kind of 255 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: the the concept of chaos as a sort of religious entity. 256 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to get into like the depths 257 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: of the lore in his books, but a lot of 258 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: it is about kind of the struggle between order and 259 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: chaos um. And so the Chaos Star he he created 260 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: that specifically like for this kind of theological like conflict 261 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: that occurs throughout his books, and it became the symbol 262 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: of like one of the sides in Warhammer in this 263 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: very like there's tens of thousands of people who have 264 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: the Chaos Star tattooed on them, not because of Warhammer, 265 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: but or not because of any political reason or because 266 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: of chast mensic, because they were fans of like Warhammer 267 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: forty or whatever. And it's interesting because in the same time, 268 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: when I first got into anarchist political theory, before long 269 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: before I considered calling myself one, it was because I 270 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: came across a book published by a k Press Um 271 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: I think I bought it in two thousand seven called 272 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: No Gods, No Masters, and it was it's a collection. 273 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: A lot of people have a copy of this book 274 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: in in their house if they're into anarchist theory. It's 275 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: like a collection of early anarchists, like people like Prudon 276 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: Um essays on like the kind of the first wave 277 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: of anarchist political theory. And it has a Chaos star 278 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: on the cover. UM because number one, Michael Moorecock identify 279 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: is an anarchist. Um is a is ah like as 280 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: an like is both an author and someone who identifies 281 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: as an anarchist politically and yeah, politically, and so his 282 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: books had were particularly popular among anarchists who don't always 283 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: get a lot of chunks of pop culture to themselves. UM. 284 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: And so he's he's It was kind of from the beginning, 285 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: both this nerdy fantasy symbol that you could see, you 286 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: could you could put alongside a bunch of different ships 287 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: from the Lord of the Rings. Not that I love 288 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: the Lord of the Rings, but like you could see 289 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: it as like like like somebody having a tattoo in Elvish. 290 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: But it also took on almost immediately this dual meaning 291 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: where it was actually representing aspects of anarchists political theory, 292 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: and so it was put in printed on like books 293 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: that were about political theory and had nothing to do 294 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: with fantasy. So it's I can't actually I cannot actually 295 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: think of another symbol with a similar pedigree. It's it's 296 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: a really pretty unique case. It is. It is because 297 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: it's it's less of like an anarchist symbol, but more 298 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: a symbol created and used by anarchists, like it was. 299 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: It was. It was, it was. It was invented by 300 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: an anarchist. It was. It was a symbol invented by 301 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 1: an anarchist to represent something in fiction that had such 302 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: resonance that people adopted it as an actual political symbol. Yeah, 303 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: it honestly, it honestly doesn't require that much reach to 304 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: see why people who would why people who like the 305 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: idea of there being no hierarchy and no state. Even 306 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: if not total freedom, there's still like the most range 307 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: that you could get that results in that negation. It 308 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: doesn't take a lot of elaboration to see why the 309 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: symbol expressly meant for the symbol of chaos would gain traction. 310 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: Absolute absolutely. Yeah. I was talking with Margaret Keilnjoy about 311 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: this a while ago, and she was like, yeah, like 312 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: if you were in the two thousands and then you 313 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: were like a traveling crust punk at least like people 314 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: would have chaostar tattoos because that's because that's like it's 315 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: about expanding out in all directions. You know, you're the 316 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: single arrow is law and order. Instead, we're expanding out 317 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: every in every possible way. Yeah, I mean I have 318 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: a chaos star tattooed on me, and I I it's 319 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: it's it's for primarily ideological reasons as opposed to the 320 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: fact that I spent my entire child with playing Warhammer 321 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: of so so yeah, it's I think now, so it 322 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: is worth mentioning. So the chaos star was invented in 323 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: the sixties by Michael Morcock. Of course there is there's 324 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: been other eight pointed stars over the course of thousands 325 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: of years of history. Of course it is it is. 326 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: It is like a broad like geometrical shape. Every kind 327 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: of star has meant something, yes, but the specific design 328 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: was was made was made by Michael Morcock Um and 329 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: then because of because of more cocks like anarchist tendencies 330 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: in fiction, his work was used or at least appreciated 331 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: by a lot of the Discordians, which is also popular 332 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: around the sixties, a lot of the situationists UM. And 333 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: then as the Discordian the situationist movement kind of morphed 334 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: and started to kind of intermingle with parts of occultism. 335 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: We have the chaos magic movement starting in the late seventies, 336 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: which started also using the the chaos star, which makes 337 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: sense because like when Robert you were talking about how 338 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: it's like it's like it's almost like personifying chaos as 339 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: like a thing to worship um, which is actually a 340 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: big part of early chaos magic text is is like 341 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: like reveling in the idea of like chaos is like 342 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: a primordial god, which there's there's a lot of primordial 343 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: gods um in like the actual world. You know, like 344 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: if you look like through through histories of various cultures, 345 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: like chaos is one of the original primordial gods, so 346 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: it is there's a big part of that in early 347 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: chaos magic books about kind of looking at chaos as 348 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: this like this very ancient force that should be kind 349 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: of respected, and I think that that is of that 350 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: is a big part of why the chaos magicians started 351 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: using uh, the the Star. I mean, obviously there's a 352 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: lot of crossover between like sci fi writers like Robert 353 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: Anton Wilson Um and Michael Moorecock who then Robert Anton 354 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,959 Speaker 1: Wilson was very influential in the chaos magic movement. So 355 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: you can see how this gets carried over from like 356 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: anarchist sci fi to chaos magic. And then because it's 357 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: in chaos magic, it gets way more visibility. So then 358 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: it starts then you start seeing it inside more more 359 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: like underground anarchistines um. And then so around around this time, 360 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: Dugan was starting his political career and he was he 361 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: was u was dabbling in a lot of various like 362 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: occult circles himself. Right now, he's he's more of like 363 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: a traditionalist, like a more like a Christian traditionalist that 364 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: is kind of his primarily that is, like, is that 365 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: is his primary kind of a cult interest as long 366 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: as it could be called a cult. Yeah, it's it's 367 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: it's not it's not worth getting too much into the 368 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: weeds on on Dougan at this point. I think people 369 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: I think it's it's it's worth it, like like he 370 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: like he because he obviously did rip the he did 371 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: take inspiration from the Chaos Star to make his own 372 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: version of it. He's certainly because he was in those 373 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: same circles, a cultic leanings and and a degree of knowledge. 374 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: I think again, with a lot of things, a lot 375 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: of things about Dugan are overstated, including his like closeness 376 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: to putin because he's just really easy in part because 377 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: he's like so prolific, and and there's a lot available 378 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: on him in English. It's really easy to kind of 379 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: tie everything happening in Russia to do him to him. Um. Yeah, 380 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: and I think that's kind of a degree of what's 381 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: happening here. There's a website I've forgotten the name of, 382 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: but I think it had like a bunch of like 383 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: online reproduction of Dugan's various writings from the nineties, all 384 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: sorts of weird shit about occultism. And yeah, and yet 385 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: I do think that there's a very obvious gulf between 386 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: the dugan of that weird eccentric like esoteric Nazi sort 387 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: of phase of like his relative youth versus today where 388 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: he frames his entire rationale for multiplorality as a kind 389 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: of Christian a Christian crusade against the hegemony that he 390 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: legitimately believes to be a Satanic empire. He has basically 391 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: said that, and it's not the only thing he considers satanic, Like, 392 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: like we should point out that, like one of the 393 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: one of the main forces that were that we're going 394 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: against Pussy Riot were Eurasianists at these of that time, 395 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: and he called them like devils and witches and taught 396 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: his followers to show up with pitchforks. People in the 397 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,239 Speaker 1: West don't really understand them. So you get guys like 398 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: when you get both Alexander reed Ross describing him as 399 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: an adherent of chaos magic and some guy from the 400 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: National Review referring to him as the leader of a 401 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 1: Satanic cult somehow. Yeah, and and boy, I mean there's 402 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: a long history of people liking to flat, liking to 403 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: flatten um fascist movements with an occultic tradition to just Satanism. 404 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: We're not gonna talk about that at length, but whenever, 405 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: whenever you hear people talking about a problem and like 406 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: they reduce it to its satanists, you should be a 407 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: little on edge because usually they're wrong or at least 408 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: incomplete um and they just have have kind of over Anyway, 409 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: we don't need to get terribly into that. The only 410 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: the only as I wanted to bring that up is 411 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: because like this is around the same time that people 412 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: that are fascists, we're trying to enter in a lot 413 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: of different politicals, like some cultures, whether it be like 414 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 1: the punk scene and industrial music, um, including like the 415 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: the occulture, because that that is like their primary means, right, 416 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: Like they try to like they are an aesthetic driven movement. 417 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: They try to cop to any aesthetic and use it 418 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 1: for their own gains and to to kind of overlook 419 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: the anarchist origins of this thing just because fascists tried 420 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: to cop it at some point. I think it's very 421 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: silly because then like what are you going to throw 422 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: away all punk music like come up or even like 423 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: or even like crosses, Like yeah, a fascist still used 424 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: variations of Christian crosses that still have essentially political Christian 425 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: meanings that I'd probably still assume that the majority of 426 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: religious fascists do lean on some kind of Christianity, and 427 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: to the extent that there's neo Pagans involved, there's sort 428 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: of a minority. There's a couple of things that this 429 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: is like one of them would be kind of in 430 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: the United States, fascist co option of of the flag 431 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: of the United States, which we can talk a lot about, 432 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,719 Speaker 1: like the fact that the United States is an imperialist power, um, 433 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: and the genocide is done on under that flag without 434 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: while still acknowledging that attempts by fascist movements to co 435 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: opt it as a purely fascist symbol are problematic in 436 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: part because that symbol, the United States flag, has a 437 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: lot of power to a lot of people. And so 438 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: if you if the fascists kind of co opted totally, um, 439 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: that's a harmful thing. That's a thing that can like 440 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: allow them to get their brain worms into more people. 441 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: Which doesn't mean like you should take and wave the U. S. Flag, 442 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: but it does mean that, like it's just a matter 443 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: of don't you don't have to let them take the ground. 444 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: You know um, and I I think on a kind 445 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: of a different angle. One of the things I think 446 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: about a lot is uh, the first time I went 447 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: to India, seeing, especially in a large parts of India, 448 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: you'll see swastika's hanging over the doors of many, many 449 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: houses all over the place. You'll see them hanging from cars. 450 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: They're They're constant things. And it's only unsettling if you 451 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: have allowed yourself to forget that the swastika is a 452 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: symbol that the Nazis stole from another culture, co opted 453 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: and invested with a new meaning Japan. Yeah. Yeah, And 454 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 1: why should people in other parts of the world who 455 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: have been using it for a totally different purpose for 456 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: thousands of years, why should they be like, well, I 457 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: guess we don't get this now. It's like in India 458 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: has had to deal with their own fashion. Yes, and 459 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: and and there's I mean again, we're delving into a 460 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: lot of very deep topics because there's a lot to 461 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: be said about how the fact that the Nazis took 462 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: the swastika lead to degrees of sympathy with an areas 463 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: of Indian true that allowed some fascist ideology to creep in, 464 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: and like that's also tied to the fact that both 465 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: the Nazis and a lot of Indian nationalists were fighting 466 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: against the British Empire. It's all very complicated, right, They're guys, 467 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: guys like VDS of Our Care did who were founders 468 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: of the Hindu the movement, Yeah, did openly praise Hitler. Yeah, 469 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: it's kind of easy for some people to think of 470 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: it as entirely motivated by religion, but his whole concept 471 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: of nationhood is entirely racial. Yeah, where it says himself 472 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: that it has nothing to do with religion. So yeah, 473 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's one of those things. If you 474 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: actually want to understand things and engage with them in 475 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: a useful area, you have to understand that history and 476 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: grapple with it without like looking at a twenty year 477 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 1: old Hindu temple and going, well, I guess they were 478 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: Nazis hash hash hashtag problematic. Yeah. The last thing I 479 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: actually want to talk about is how how how the 480 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: kind of debate around symbols us to symbols has just 481 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: kind of morphed into just fast jacketing anarchists in general 482 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: and worrying about like, oh, the fascists are secretly infiltrating 483 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: the anarchists and they're gonna turn anarchists into fascists. Just 484 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: pretty silly, because I mean, if you're gonna, if you're 485 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: gonna turn anyone into fascists, think anarchists are one of 486 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: the hardest people to do to do that too. This 487 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: is this, there's a lot of other people it's way 488 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: easier to convince to become fascists than when anarchists go fascists. 489 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: They pretty hard well, yeah, but the type, the type 490 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: of like fear mongering around it is still it's really 491 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: frustrating because like I'm looking at all these I'm looking 492 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: at all these Tanky's like fast jacketing anarchists for using 493 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: a for using a symbol created by anarchists, which has 494 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: been used by anarchists for decades, right, Um, But then 495 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: you also have like Tanky superstar Kaitlin Malpin regularly hanging 496 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: out with like like Melvin regularly hangs out with dou 497 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: Good Um. And then you have someone who's like another 498 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: like pretty like popularly like Tinky influencer like Ben Norton 499 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: who openly uses dugans multipolar theory. Right, and so if 500 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: if if if you're looking for the most visible example 501 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: of fascist nationalist rhetoric trying to enter into leftism. You 502 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: should look at like the growing like patriotic communists. You know, 503 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: people people like patriotic socialists, but yeah, the idea is 504 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: basically the same. But yeah, it's like people like Peter 505 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: Coffin and this like growing like patriot communist socialist kind 506 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: of live streamer grifft um, which is like because like 507 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: the easiest entry on the left for fascism is in 508 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: forms of nationalist authoritarian communism. Right, It's like you know 509 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: that that's that that is how you get like national socialism, right. Uh. 510 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: It's like they just had this like super cringe e 511 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: nauz Ball convention just a few weeks ago with with 512 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: some of the best moments on until Will Smith slapped 513 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: that guy. Yeah, but like you know, you have you 514 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: have like Coffin and Malpin hanging out, and like Malpen 515 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: regularly regularly hangs out with Do Good. It's like, if 516 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: you're gonna lift, if you want to be watching out 517 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: for like a fascist creep, maybe you should direct it 518 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: towards the people, just like doing it out in the 519 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: open and not fast jacketing like queer anarchists who have 520 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: been doing the thing that they've been doing for like decades. 521 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: I guess one of the last things I will mention is, uh, 522 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: the hilarious incidents with the Sith Empire thing of people 523 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: just fully of like fully getting consumed by their own 524 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: brain worms and trying to insist that a Star Wars 525 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: symbol uh is secretly uh fascist chaos star um and 526 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: then doing the same thing to the Warhammer symbol. Um. 527 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: It is it is in in I mean, it's funny 528 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 1: because like in Star Wars it is a fascist symbol, right, 529 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: that is, that's not a fascist symbol in the real world, 530 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: but it is within the world of of Star Wars 531 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: that is absolutely a fascist Also, it's also not a 532 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: chaos star. It's not a chaos star uh. And in 533 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: Warhammer it is a chaos star, but it's not a 534 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: fascist symbol. It's actually an anti just symbol within the world. 535 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: You can basically argue that, yeah, because it is. It 536 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: is just frustrating looking at all these people being like 537 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: trying to play trying to play the Wears Waldo game 538 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: just to all like dunk on anarchists, and it's it 539 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: just kind of shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the history 540 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: of anarchists culture um and the history like anti fascist anarchists. 541 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: You know, most of the anti fascists that I know 542 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: use the chaos star because it's because it's a red symbol. 543 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: It looks rad, it looks cool. Um and yeah, trying 544 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: to like in insisting that we must see this ground 545 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: and let fascists use anything that they think is esthetically cool. 546 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: I think is is a first of all, like a 547 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: losing battle to actually just like to just just to 548 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: to to start that now, I think is we'd have 549 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: some pretty bad implications for fascism and its use of aesthetics. 550 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: You don't have to give them things just because they 551 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: want to take those things. It makes sense that you 552 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: would see like tank yas do it, because then with 553 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: your TANKI you could basically get into a position where 554 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: you can basically discard all sorts of symbolisms and just 555 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: replace everything with like old like Soviet symbology or so 556 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: which is which is obviously not tied to any atrocities 557 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: that have happened. Right, Oh, oh it's dentally. Don't ever 558 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: tell them about Georgia. Yeah, don't don't tell them about Georgia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Ukraine, 559 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: that giant lake that was like the largest lake in 560 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: Europe that they turned into a pile of poison. You know, 561 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: don't mention a few things, and Trotsky would be proud 562 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: considering he wanted to turn mountains into like city structure. 563 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: I mean that that actually is one of the things. 564 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: I think Trotsky was on the right ball about. More 565 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: minis tirats, more minis tirats. Let's teeth up some mountains. 566 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: So any any any final thoughts on our lovely circular 567 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: chaosis chaostar. I'm thinking I'm thinking of a quote from like, uh, 568 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: what was his name, Pablo Freer Day. I hope I've 569 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: gotten that name right. A quote I've seen him going 570 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,479 Speaker 1: around that I think goes around something to the effect 571 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: that when the point of education isn't liberation, the goal 572 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: is to become the oppressor. Um, you could sort of 573 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: Usually that quote is like relevant to like the material 574 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: processes of like being inculcated into a capitalist system. So 575 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: so so you can kind of make the most sense 576 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: of it as basically like you are educated to become 577 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: a boss instead of wanting to abolish all bosses. But 578 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: but but on but on a micro level, you can 579 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: sort of apply it to the to the ways in 580 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: which people, even in like radical spaces sort of to 581 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: sort of become like self styled cops as it were. 582 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: That I think is a phenomenon that a lot of 583 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: the unarcho nihilist tendency sort of responds to. Anyway, this 584 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: is coming from a perspective that sort of flirtatious towards 585 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: an arco nihilism, but not necessarily. But it's like you 586 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: could a lot of the interactions with like like certain 587 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: people demonstrate that there are some instances of it where 588 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: I think I can't quite tell if it's po or not. 589 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: Um somebody I s s somebody posted like a photo 590 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: of themselves with like a like a jacket and they 591 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,719 Speaker 1: had like the upside down cross and the inverted pedogram 592 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: on board. And somebody someone, somebody with like basically no 593 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: followers who somehow blew somehow blew up when they posted 594 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: that photo next to like a Nazi uniform to try 595 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: and compare the the inverted cross to a swastika or 596 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: no not if not a swastika, then like maybe some 597 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: other part of the jacket and the pentagram to like 598 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: the arm band or something like yeah, yeah, and I'm 599 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: still not sure if that was entirely serious. See, that's 600 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: that's the thing is, like we have to be like, 601 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: I don't like anarchist in fighting. It's rarely useful, um, 602 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: and we have to be tulix to be watchful for 603 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: like how much of it is just people trolling or 604 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: people trying to prompt in fighting just for the sake 605 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: of infighting. Right, So if if like I tried for 606 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: a long time to not engage in this debate because 607 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: I don't like talking about this, like I I don't 608 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,479 Speaker 1: like in fighting with anarchists. I don't like I don't 609 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: like having these types of debates. So hopefully the next 610 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: time this debate starts, we don't need to because we 611 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: can just we can just point to how this last 612 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: one went and say, no, look, we clearly demonstrated that 613 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: this has a this has a long history of use 614 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: by anarchists, invented by anarchists, and not starting, not starting, 615 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: and not start the debate again because we we don't 616 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: we we don't need to do it, and there's no 617 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: telling if people are doing it sincerely or people doing 618 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: it ironically or people just doing it just to get 619 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: you know, people upset um. And I mean like if 620 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: you want to look at anarchists and look at I 621 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: where where is right wing people? Whereas fascists trying to 622 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: kind of blended with anarchists, like look at like books right, 623 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: look at end caps right. These people who try to 624 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: claim to be anarchists are very bad and actually blending 625 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,479 Speaker 1: in because they can't help themselves when they start talking 626 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: about like the validity of anarcho capitalism or the validity 627 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: of like small nation states, like it's it is, it is. 628 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: It is hard. It's hard to actually infiltrate anarchists. This 629 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: is the thing that the FBI has said multiple multiple times. 630 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: It's hard to actually do. So whenever fascists try to 631 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: blend in, whether they're boogloo boys, they can't help but 632 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: use their old like boogaloo symbols. They can't help, but 633 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: just like like give hints. It is it is astonishing 634 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: how how bad they are at this thing. So also 635 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: bad at like the protection that they claimed to offer. 636 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: Like there was a there was an article from like 637 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: last year going over oh we're going over well, part 638 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: of it mentioned that they were basically at this like 639 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: purported protests that they were supposed to offer protection from 640 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: and most and most of what they did was get 641 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: drunk and like this on the sidewalks, the Boogloo boys. 642 00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: I've seen an actual protests who are like with like 643 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: play cops stacking protesters, the biglan voice of the first 644 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: ones to run because their cowards. Yeah, all right, well, 645 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: I guess where can where can people black ground? Where 646 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: can people find in you on line? And where can 647 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: people read your read your article like Chaos Nihilism and 648 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: the Way of No Surrender WordPress. Basically, um, I could 649 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: I call a site left the rotical domain, but the 650 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: but the link goes like my thoughts born from fire 651 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: dot WordPress dot com. I actually try, I actually try 652 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: changing the u r L once I changed it to 653 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: a left the rotical domain I think in two Bells 654 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: of thirteen fourteen, but I figured that doing so would 655 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: funk up all of the stats and whatever, so I 656 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: just didn't bother. Well, thank thank you so much for 657 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: kind of writing what I would say probably the most 658 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: definitive stance on this debate at the moment, which you 659 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,879 Speaker 1: can always point point back to whenever this inevitably comes 660 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: up again in like a year or two, because this again, 661 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: I've seen it. I've seen it come up like every 662 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: every few years you see it. So thank you, thank 663 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: you for that, and thank you for coming on. Um yeah, 664 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: if you want to follow follow us, you can do 665 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: it at the thing, you know the thing, you know 666 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: what our Instagram had happened here pod and cool Zone Media. 667 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: You can look at my unhinged chaos tweets at Hungry 668 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: bow Tie. Um yeah, nothing is true and everything is permitted. 669 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: Also at a Skatiness is where I go to like 670 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: sort of ramble about politics and occasionally the occult and 671 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: other things. We do we do. We do love a 672 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,240 Speaker 1: good We do love a good ramble. All right, that 673 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: that that doesn't for us today, Uh funk fascists, Nazi punk, 674 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: sunk Off, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. It could Happen Here is 675 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 676 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 677 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 678 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 679 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at 680 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources, thanks for listening.