1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. Think about the 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: embodiment of hegemonic masculinity, how eroticism gets even constructed or 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: manifested in our bodies, in men's bodies specifically, because basically, 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: what he's trying to tell you is that even though 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: his mind has advanced beyond what he thinks are appropriate 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: performances of men and women to be doing, his penis 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: has not. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to The Laverne 9 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: Cock Show. On today's episode, we're talking about the challenges 10 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: that college educated women of color experience dating in the 11 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: digital age. Now, many years ago, I was on this 12 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: website called Plenty of Fish and I got a message 13 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: from a man. I went to his profile and was shocked. 14 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: He said on his profile really disparaging things about why 15 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: he would never date black and Latino women, just things 16 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: that were so horrible and so stereotypical. I just can't 17 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: even bring myself to repeat them here today. And so 18 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: I was just like, why would this man write me? So, 19 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: in the spirit of research, I wrote him back and 20 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: I said, I read your profile. I'm obviously a black woman, 21 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: Why would you even, you know, write me and expressed 22 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: interest in dating me. And what he said was, Oh, 23 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: I can date you because you're light skinned. And then 24 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,919 Speaker 1: he said and I've always been curious about trans women, 25 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: and so I just kind of remember sitting there and 26 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: just sort of being like, Wow, this is this is 27 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: really deep. And then I blocked him and I never 28 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: had any communication with him again after that. But over 29 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: the years, I've heard from so many black women, both 30 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: trans and non trans, who have expressed frustration dating and 31 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: attempting to date in the face of this kind of stereotyping, 32 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: blamed racism, colorism, misogyny, and treating trans women as experiments 33 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: and curiosities. When I came across Dr Sarah adayinka Schools 34 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: research on dating in the Digital Age with the focus 35 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: on college educated women of color, I knew I wanted 36 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: to have this conversation with her. Dr Sarah is a 37 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: licensed clinical social worker and assistant Professor of sociology at 38 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: firm And University. She explores race, family, and gender in 39 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: her research, with a focused interest in how forming intimate 40 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: romantic relationships reveal inequalities in these areas. Please enjoy my 41 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: talk with Dr Sarah. Hi, Dr Sarah. How are you 42 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: feeling today? Good? Miss Cox? How are you doing? I'm well, 43 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: you can call me the Burn, all right. I just 44 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure, yes, my mother is Miss Cox. Okay. 45 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: Can you talk to us just about the nature of 46 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: your research and what what really inspired this look into 47 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: the challenges that college educated women of color experience and dating. 48 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: What was the beginning the nexus of genesis? I should say, 49 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: of you doing this, that's a great question soul. For me, 50 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:47,279 Speaker 1: I've always been a little bit of a mushy romantic. 51 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: I love ear hustling about how people fall in love. 52 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: I'm all about that. And when I was in high school, 53 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, so I'm gonna go to college 54 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna get married. It's gonna be lick yea. 55 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: And I went to call ligiend that is not what happened. 56 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: In fact, what I was noticing already was that my 57 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: white college age friends were already partnering and my black 58 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: female friends were not. We weren't getting together. And I 59 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: don't think that it was people weren't hooking up with us, 60 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: but there was definitely this field that we were going 61 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: to have to wait to find our partners, whereas a 62 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: lot of the white folks that I knew were like 63 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: in serious relationships at college. So my junior paper, where 64 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: did you go to school? Where did you do your 65 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: undergraduate I went to Princeton University, and so I took 66 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: a class with Mario Small, who I think is now 67 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: at Harvard, and sort of everything became clear for me, 68 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: my own understanding. I took a sociology class there, my 69 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: own understanding of being a black woman, and things that 70 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: hadn't made made sense to me started to make sense. 71 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: And so, you know, as someone who's interested in meeting 72 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: and meeting already, I was like, well, I gotta figure 73 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: out what's going on, Like why aren't I dating? Why 74 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: aren't my friend MS dating? Like what's going on? So 75 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: my junior paper looked at how black women do marry, 76 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: but they tend to marry down. I wrote a senior 77 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: thesis that looked at how institutions like schools are actually 78 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: matchmakers and we don't often think of them as matchmakers, 79 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: as schools can be mechanisms to facilitate homogamy, which is 80 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: where people get married along the same class, educational racial lines. 81 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: But if you meet at work, for instance, you might 82 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: be less likely to marry someone that is the same 83 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: as you in terms of class, in terms of in 84 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: terms of class, education, race, but that might be changing 85 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: now because work can be so um specific. So I 86 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: wrote a paper on that. I stopped there, and then 87 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: my advisor was like, you gotta go to graduate school 88 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: because maybe this is an important thing to study. And 89 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I don't want to go. And 90 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: I had told myself that, um, if I was still 91 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: interested in this in five years, I would I would 92 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: go to graduate school. So I read a book by 93 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: Richard Banks called His Marriage for for White People, and 94 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: the book pissed me off enough to be like, okay, 95 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: when we need to go to graduate school. Why did 96 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: the book piss you off? What was the press of 97 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: the book that pissed you off? The title is interesting. 98 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: His assumption was that black women simply were not open 99 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 1: to dating outside of their race. They were just closed off. 100 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: And so I was like, that's not correct. I've been 101 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: trying to day outside of my race. The wacky things 102 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: that I've been seeing online, the ways in which people 103 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: approach me was just incorrect. And I was like, this 104 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: can't stand. I really need to go research this myself. 105 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: And then you know, as you're getting into your mid twenties, 106 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: you're having these conversations with your non black friends and 107 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: your black friends, and you're starting to see, what our 108 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: experiences aren't that similar. They're similar in some ways, but 109 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: they're not similar in other ways. And so that basically 110 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: lit a fire under me, and I was like, I'm 111 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: going to get my PhD. And this is what I'm 112 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: going to study. And for me, um, the comparisons are 113 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: really key, right, I really want to talk to black women, 114 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: but I think the uniqueness of Black women's experiences they 115 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: really come into relief when you compare them to non 116 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: black women's experiences. And that's what made me do the 117 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: work that I'm doing. Girl, There's so many things that 118 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: you said there that I just I want to unpack 119 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: on so many different levels. The first one, you just 120 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: sort of alluded to marrying down, and if you just 121 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: go online, if you go to YouTube, there's so many 122 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: conversations about like hypergamy and black women and like marrying 123 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: up and what does that look like? And and then 124 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: the interracial dating piece. There's so we black women. I 125 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: saw one study that suggested that black women are less 126 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: likely than black men to date outside of the race. 127 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: That we are more statistically more likely to pursue relationships 128 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: with black men, and black men are with us. Right, 129 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: So where do we where do we even begin with this? 130 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: Let me give me We can start with the data 131 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: about black women being less likely to date and marry interracially. 132 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: We do see that in census data UM two thousand. 133 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: Intend we see the data that black men are actually 134 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: twice as likely to marry interracially as black women. But 135 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: I don't think this is solely an issue of preference. 136 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: I think in our world today, we really you know, 137 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: we have this rugged individualism. We tend to live in 138 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: this pretend world where like the way that the US 139 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: was set up to make black people three fifths of 140 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: our human and then to put them at the bottom 141 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: of the hierarchy doesn't at all impact our preferences. That 142 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. So we have to recognize that 143 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: our preferences are within a particular kind of racial and 144 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: gender order, and they're influenced by that order. For a 145 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: long time, sexual abuses that black women experience at the 146 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: hands of white men didn't count as illegal. You can't 147 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: just ignore history and then pretend that black women are 148 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: just gonna grow up in a vacuum where now it's 149 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: just fine to date white or non black men and 150 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: they have to be careful. We're seeing this even in 151 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: our time now, like people are very bold about their 152 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: hate and their dislike for black women. You don't have 153 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: to look for Kamala Harris. So when black women in 154 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: my opinion, and I see this in my data. So 155 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: this isn't in my dissertation, it's in a forthcoming book 156 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: I'm called the Logic of Racial Practice. In my experience, 157 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: black women don't want to date black men just because 158 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: it feels good. It's about racial solidarity. How are you 159 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: going to go through a life where you're constantly struggling 160 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: and the person is like, maybe that's racial discrimination, maybe 161 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: it's not. You don't want that right. So, as this, 162 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: as white supremacy bears down more and more and more 163 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: on black women's lives, black women are trying to advance. 164 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: We are one of the most highly educated populations in 165 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: the US, but our college degrees, our post college graduate 166 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: degrees are not getting us the same things that it 167 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: is for non black women. So if we want to 168 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: date black men, is because love is intimate. We want 169 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: people to understand us and understand that struggle. And I 170 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: haven't talked to black men, so I don't know what 171 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: their reasons are for dating white women. I can't speak 172 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: to that. But for black women, it's a little less 173 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: than just like, well, I just want someone that's the 174 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: same race as me. That race has history behind it, 175 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: It has struggled behind it, it has resilience behind it. 176 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: And in a world like ours, where your blackness is, 177 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: people seek to trample upon it. They're saying, we want 178 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: to count all legal vote, but your vote is illegal, 179 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: right you? You want to be with someone that is 180 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: going to get that. The immediate thing that I think 181 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: about when I listened to you talk, it's trauma that 182 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: that did. The trauma. The history of the ways in 183 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: which black womanhood has been devalued in this country is 184 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: deeply traumatizing. I think about my mother and how my 185 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: mother there's no way she would ever date a white 186 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: man that she grew up in the segregated South. I 187 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: remember we were in it was twenty twelves. It was 188 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: eight years ago. We were in Vegas and she had 189 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: just retired and we were both in Vegas, for the 190 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: first time, and she was supposed to meet me by 191 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: the pool. Um. We were staying at the Mirage and 192 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: I went for a dip in the pool and get 193 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: out of the pool, and I have like ten messages 194 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: from my mother, and I listened to the first and 195 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: she's freaking out and she's like, you've got me about 196 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: here around all these white people, she said to me. 197 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: And I just founder and we sat down and I said, 198 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: are you afraid of white people? People? And she was 199 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: just so sort of riled up and it didn't clicked him. 200 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my god. And this is 201 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: eight years ago, so I'm like forty years old, and 202 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god. She grew up in 203 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: the segregated South, watched her father be called the N word, 204 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: was in segregated schools, and invested um desegregated schools, and 205 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: experienced to all that there was so much strong. She 206 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: was passed over for a promotion in the eighties for 207 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: a white woman who didn't have the same education, And 208 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: so I think it's our experience. But then I also 209 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: know that trauma has passed down in our genes and 210 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: in our d n A, and so I think about 211 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: that level of trauma as I listened to what you 212 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: just said. But then I think about two. How so 213 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: many black men, particularly black celebrities, rappers, et cetera, have 214 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: no problem expressing their disdain from black women right and 215 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: their desire not to date black women, or that that 216 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: black women must be light skinned. So the colorism, and 217 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: I think when we have this conversation, it has to 218 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: be we have to sort of talk about colorism, and 219 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: we have to talk about the ways in which certain 220 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: scan tones are privileged in the in the dating market. 221 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: What would you say to that? So I would say 222 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: that just based on the work that I've done, I 223 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: think it's important to think about hegemonic masculinity and when 224 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: we think about the intersection of race and gender for 225 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: black men, So in our world, patriarchy, masculinity, hegemonic masculinity 226 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: are very powerful ideologies. You know, when you read the 227 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: New York Times and people are asking, well, why did 228 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: Latino men vote for Trump? Why did Black men vote 229 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: for Trump? A lot of the answer is will they 230 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: really see him as a macho man? So what happens 231 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: I think, you know, based on my limited experience, is 232 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: that for black men, part of defining that masculinity is 233 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: putting that above racial solidarity right by showing I am 234 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: a man and because of white supremacy. One way I 235 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: can do that is by devaluing black women. I'm seen 236 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: as more valuable in the realm of white supremacy, in 237 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: the world of white supremacy, if I'm able to join 238 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: along with others to devalue black women who are at 239 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: the bottom of their racial hierarchy. So I think that 240 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: whether or not black men realize it, they're literally part 241 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: of that process of maintaining and perpetuating white supremacy by 242 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: devaluing black women, and oftentimes they don't understand that. And 243 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: so again with white supremacy, skin tone always matters. So 244 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: if my goal is a black man is to get 245 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: closer to whiteness, to get closer to white masculinity, of 246 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: course I'm going to date a lighter skin black woman 247 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: because all of it matters. Phenotype matters, skin color matters, 248 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: what her nose look like. All that matters in terms 249 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: of maintaining my place as a man and a black 250 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: man within this racial harchy and within this context, the 251 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: white supremacy. So that's how I, as a sociologists understand 252 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: those actions. What this is such a complicated thing to 253 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: talk about. I think too, because the question that comes 254 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: up for me is like, well, if we just have 255 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: our preferences, right, Like I just I am more attracted 256 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: to someone who's lighter skin and that's like, not racism, 257 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: It's just my preference. And a lot of people listening 258 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: to this will say that, what would you say to 259 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: the folks out there who are like, well, I just 260 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: have a preference and it's it's not necessarily racist or 261 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: misogynist or colorist. I just like what I like. I 262 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: would say say to them, You're not alone. That's a 263 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: totally valid perspective to have. I'm all about interrogation. Why 264 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: do you like what you like? Where does that come from? 265 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: When did you start liking it? What does it mean 266 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: for you to like it? And I'm not just talking objectively. 267 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: I'm married to a white man, so I had to 268 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: do that work for myself of like, well, what does 269 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: it mean to be attracted to white men? What does 270 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: it mean for a black woman to hold up whiteness? 271 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: What kind of life do I want to have with 272 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: a white man? Why does it matter if I'm not 273 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: or am I am married to a white man, so 274 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: I had to do that work for myself, and frankly, 275 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: what I found for myself is if I'm going to 276 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: be with a white man, he better bring me closer 277 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: and closer and closer and closer to pro blackness. His 278 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: treatment of me better upgrade my humanity all the time. 279 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: So I think it's fine to have preferences, but just 280 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: recognize that they don't exist in a vacuum. So interrogate, 281 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: do the work, reflect on where those are coming from 282 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: and why they are important to you. I think that 283 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: the thing too, it's like, if we do have our preferences, 284 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: then they have those preferences, should not dinnigrade women with 285 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: I remember there was I think famous singer or a 286 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: rapper or something who had a song about, you know, 287 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: women with their good hair or something like that, and 288 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: and people like this is colorist, this is upsetting, and 289 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: so that that even if we have our preferences, that 290 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: we're not in the process of denegrating people who don't 291 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: fall into their preferences right exactly. And that's where the 292 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: self reflection comes from, because what you might actually find 293 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: is if you're a non white person, is that you 294 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: actually might have some internalized racism that you haven't dealt with. 295 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: You might find that you have some internalized colorism that 296 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: you haven't dealt with. So some of my respondents they 297 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: were in this situation where they were always attracted to 298 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: white men, and then one woman said that she went 299 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: on a fast where she started to de colonize her 300 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: her preferences. She's like, why am I attracted to this 301 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: white guy, this mediocre white guy, when they're these black 302 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: men over here, these Asian men over here that are 303 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: meeting the same criteria. She started to do that work 304 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: of reflecting on those preferences, and so you might surprise yourself. 305 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: You might actually realize, wow, I'm holding onto these things 306 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: because the media's influenced me. How people define beauty has 307 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: influenced me. So that's why people don't want to do 308 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: the work, because they might be afraid to like go 309 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: or something. They might have to realize that, actually, I 310 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: don't think all people are the same. And so when 311 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: you do that work, though, then you can really start 312 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: to appreciate the humanity and other people. So you can 313 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: still have your preferences, but not at the expense of 314 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: denigrating other people. Yeah, I think it always comes down 315 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: to a critical, loving, critical self reflection when it comes 316 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: to all of these things that like, at the end 317 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: of the day, it's like not about looking at other 318 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: people and what their issues are, but like, how am 319 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: I implicated in perpetuating or creating a racism, misogyny, colorism, 320 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: et cetera. How am I participate eating and creating something 321 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: new and starting new and different kinds of conversations. This 322 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: is a good time to take a little break and 323 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: we'll be right back though after a little love is 324 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: thrown to our sponsors. Alrighty, now that's all taken care of, 325 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: Let's get back to our chat. My ex boyfriend was 326 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: white and we you know, posted on social media, and 327 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: I remember with the first few times we posted, there 328 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: were so many people who were frustrated and upset that 329 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: I was dating a white man. And someone said, you know, 330 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: why do all the lgbt Q celebrities when they get famous, 331 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: they find a white man? And there was just like 332 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people were very very upset that my 333 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: boyfriend was white, and it was just kind of I 334 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: was like, most of the men I've dated are white men, 335 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: and you know, and it's something I've thought a lot 336 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: about and is something I've interrogated and but it's also 337 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: about who is of any race right is going to 338 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: treat me in the way that I feel I deserved 339 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: to be treated and I should be treated. And so, 340 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: you know, I happen to fall in love with a 341 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: white man who treated me really well, and so I 342 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: think a lot of it is about our options and 343 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: being open. You know, I think there's a there's a 344 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: piece of trauma though. I think I think for a 345 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:38,719 Speaker 1: lot of black women, there's trauma around having been treated 346 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: it's purely dark skinned black women having been treated so 347 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: badly over and over again. As I was preparing for this, 348 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: I read so many accounts from dark skinned black women 349 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: who just have been made to feel like they are 350 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: just less than nothing by men, over and over and 351 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: over again. And I think about, how how do we 352 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: actually go into healthy relationships right where we can let 353 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: don't bring that baggage into it. And what have you 354 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: found in your research around the healing process that has 355 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: to happen from all the wounds of of the intersections 356 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: of misogyny and colorism and racism for the folks that 357 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: you've interviewed. Yeah, that's a great question. So one of 358 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: the things that I found in my UM work is 359 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: that women, regardless of what race they are, they often 360 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: experience negative interactions with men, both on and offline when 361 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: they're in their romantic partner search. And there are two 362 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: ways in which women will often deal with these negative interactions, 363 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: and one of them is emotion work, which is where 364 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: they prioritize men's feelings. So if men are intimidated by 365 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: their accomplishments, or men are intimidated by their educational level, 366 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: those sort of downplay. As part of this emotion work, 367 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,479 Speaker 1: they'll ask the man a lot of questions about what 368 00:21:54,520 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: he's doing, have done that, Yeah, um. One of one 369 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: of my respondents talked about how they were going to 370 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: be lawyers. She has a PhD in sociology. One of 371 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: her friends was going to be a PR person in 372 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: l A and they these men came up to them 373 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: and they told them exactly what they were going to do, 374 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: and the men, she said, they shrank. So she turned 375 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: to her friends and she was like, we need to 376 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: tell people that were nannies or else we're never gonna 377 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:26,479 Speaker 1: get laid. So that's priority. It's one of my favorite quotes. 378 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: So that's prioritization of men's feelings around their accomplishments. But 379 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: the other kind of coping mechanism that women did was 380 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: emotion and repair, which is where they prioritized their feelings. Right. 381 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: They weren't going to talk to any men that were 382 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: showing any hints of intimidation. They weren't going to talk 383 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: to any men who called them bitches online. They weren't 384 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: going to talk to any men who used criticized daization 385 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: as a way to include them as romantic partners. It 386 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: definitely shrank or pool, but you know what, they felt empowered. 387 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: So I would say to black women, especially, take care 388 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: of yourself. This world that we're in is not about you. 389 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: I know that sounds terrible to say, but take care 390 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: of yourself. Surround yourself with people who know your worth 391 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: and who know your value, and this is an ongoing process. 392 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: As a social worker, I'm all about therapy, even better 393 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: if you do it with a black person that maybe 394 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: even understands where you're coming from. But like, trauma really 395 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: needs you to air it out. It needs to be 396 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: out in the open. You need to let someone carry 397 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: that burden with you, because trauma will tell you that 398 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: you're not enough. Trauma will tell you that you're less than. 399 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: So you already have the value. You're already worth something. 400 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: People can't take that away from you. So the work 401 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: is in you finding it and stepping into it and 402 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: daily and again, this is not like a magical thing, 403 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: like you're not gonna wake up one they and be like, 404 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: oh my god, I feel totally fulfilled enough and love. 405 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: It's going to be a constant thing because of the 406 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,239 Speaker 1: world that we live in, in in the American society that 407 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: we live in. So black women, you are already enough. 408 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,719 Speaker 1: There's no here there about it. There's no discovering it. 409 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: It's just walking up and waking into it and living 410 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: it out. That's what that's about. That's so beautiful. One 411 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: of the main reasons I wanted to talk to you 412 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: is that the ways in which so many men online have, 413 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: the way they treat us, the way they the stereotypes 414 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: they have, the ways in which they approach us, that 415 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: is stuff that is systemic. That is something that is 416 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: not it's not our fault. It's not something that we 417 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: need to sort of blame ourselves for. And I think 418 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: it's really really important that we understand that's a lot 419 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: of these things are systemic. There's an element to this. 420 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: There's so many elements to this. But see the thing 421 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: about being intimidating. Many years ago, one of my first 422 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: interactions with men I was after I transitioned or I 423 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: don't even know if I had officially medically transitioned, but 424 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: a man with told me I was intimidating, right, And 425 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: I just sort of assumed that for whatever reason I'm 426 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: men find me intimidating. And this was like, you know, 427 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: before I, you know, had any sort of success or whatnot. 428 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: And so when I tried to understand and parse out 429 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: what that means, right, and some men like being intimidated 430 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: by me. They saw me as a challenge and they 431 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: were like it was hot for them that I was 432 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: intimidating for some reason. And other men have coward and 433 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: like sort of run away. And this has nothing to 434 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 1: do with me even being trans. These are men who 435 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,479 Speaker 1: are who are attracted to me and knew I was trans, 436 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: And so it's but then I here accounts from black women, 437 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: women of color who were not trans, or women who 438 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 1: of all races who were very successful, and they um 439 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,160 Speaker 1: here that they're intimidating, and so I I talk out 440 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: with my girlfriends about how much work we've all done 441 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: on our Most of my girlfriends are really my super 442 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: close girlfriends. The cow Council of Transistors we call call 443 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: herself the cops. Um. We do so much work on ourselves, 444 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: trying to evolve and be better versions of ourselves and 445 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: to go out into the world with a sense of worthiness. 446 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: And it's rare that we meet men who seem to 447 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: be doing the same work. You know, they say that 448 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: there woke and they're feminist and there whatever, but then 449 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: their practices don't really bear it out. Um. I think 450 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: I've told this story on this podcast before, but I 451 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: had a man many years ago tell me that he, 452 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: you know, he was a feminist and he loved women 453 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: and wanted to empower, you know, empower women. But then 454 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: when it came down to his penis working and him 455 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: becoming sexually aroused, the woman had to make less money 456 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: than him, She had to even be less attractive as 457 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: woke as he wanted to be an amazing he really 458 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: was an amazing, awesome guy, but like he literally they 459 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: could not physically get there for a woman who was 460 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: more successful. And so this is what we're up against. Yea, 461 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: so I think that, Like, I'm not in the business 462 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: of demonizing anyone. So what do we what is the prescription? 463 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: What do we do? I mean, you know, if this 464 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: is the world we live in, it's it's really fascinating 465 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: because I haven't done this work, but I think it'd 466 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: be really interesting to think about the embodiment of hegemonic 467 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: masculinity and the eroticism, how eroticism gets even constructed or 468 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: manifested in our bodies, and men's bodies specifically, because basically, 469 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: what he's trying to tell you is that even though 470 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: his mind has advanced beyond what he thinks are appropriate 471 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: performances of men and women to be doing, his penis 472 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: has not. So there's something about in sociology, they're famous 473 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: people were written about this, about the performance of gender, 474 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: about the performance of femininity and masculinity, and when you 475 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: perform it so long. So what you're really talking about 476 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: is like this deep embodiment of masculine performance and a 477 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: belief and a deep embodiment in what feminine performance is, 478 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: and then literally being unable to get aroused because your 479 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: penis does not believe and cannot get past the fact 480 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: that this woman is performing femininity in a way that 481 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: doesn't fit these ideals of gender norms. I'm literally stuck 482 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: in hegemonic masculinity. I'm literally stuck in a place where 483 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: I can't get up because a woman is not performing 484 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: femininity in the traditional ways. So I think that says 485 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: something about how deep patriarchy, misogyny, hegemonic masculinity. We see 486 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: them as structures, but it's literally playing out on his body. 487 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: And I think that that's powerful and real for a 488 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: lot of people, but maybe they haven't had even the 489 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: language to be able to talk about it in the 490 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: way that he has. Wow, that is so incredibly deep, 491 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: But I feel like that leaves us in a very 492 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: precarious position for a lot of women who date men. 493 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: Something that came up with you, just what you just said, 494 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: is that historically, right, the ways in which patriarchy has 495 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: sort of um and and racism has intersected in the 496 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: lives and bodies of black women, is that like womanhood 497 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: with something historically that was really preserved for white women. 498 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: When sojournal true declared and a woman in one in Ohio, 499 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: she said this in the context of her blackness being 500 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: disavowed because she wasn't a man in her womanhood being 501 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: disavowed because she was not a white woman, and so 502 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: that history sort of persists. You know, Black women have 503 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: often had their femininity sort of stripped from them by 504 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: misogyny and white supremacy and these assumptions that black women 505 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: are less womanly and less feminine. Well, I really think 506 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: it's back to back to what you said about structure, 507 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: and in sociology, we're always battling between how much does 508 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: the structure constrain our agency and how much agency do 509 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: we have. You are example of doing that work and 510 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: continue to do that work. I'm just talking about hetero 511 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: sexual women. I cannot imagine the barriers that trans women 512 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: are going through as they're searching for partners. It is immense, Right, 513 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: Intersectionality is gonna tell us that they're going to have 514 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: a lot more troubles than we are, both structural and agentic. Right, 515 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: But the thing is, like, you can't give up. You 516 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: have the cots. They are helpful to you, They help 517 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: you to live, they help you to serve vibe. So 518 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: the world isn't going to change that fast, but as 519 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: much as we can, we're responsible for how we react 520 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: to that. And how we walk in it. This connection 521 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: between sociology and social work is really important because sociology says, 522 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: this is the structure, and this is how the structure 523 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: constrains your agency, and then social work says, but let's 524 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: work together to empower that agency. And part of that 525 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: is recognizing that there's a structure that you can't deal with, 526 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: but there's all these other parts of your life that 527 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: you can deal with. So I honestly would say that 528 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: to the man that said his penis can't do it, well, 529 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: maybe there needs to be some work done there. Right, 530 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: you can't solve that problem. No woman can solve that problem. 531 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: And that's not her problem to solve. That's his work 532 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: to do. So let's leave men to do their work. 533 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: So we, all of us, white women, black women, we 534 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: need to call it out every time the structure lets 535 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: men off the hook and puts more bird in on us. 536 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: The reason we are where we are is because black 537 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: women sojourn or truth men like women like her, They 538 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: called it out every single time, and they did what 539 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: they could to make sure that it didn't go on. 540 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: So that's part of the work too. It's not just 541 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: this personal journey, you know, to who much is is given. Um, 542 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: you're just held more accountable. So as an upwardly mobile 543 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: black women, it's my job to call out patriarchy. It's 544 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: my job to call out racism, and then to act 545 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: in ways that resist that. So that's what I see 546 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: that we can do. We can't just let the structure 547 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: overtake our agency. If we have the means to advocate 548 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: for people, we need to do that too. M Hm. 549 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: I feel like there's a crisis that men um, I say, 550 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: heterosexual man specifically sis gender heaterosexual man, let's qualify that 551 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: are having a crisis that they're having around women's roles 552 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: shifting in society. And I I guess there's this promise 553 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: right from of all races if I am a man, 554 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: that I should be their breadwinner and I should make 555 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: more money, and I should do this and this and 556 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: this and this, and then the culture right that the 557 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: structure actually of society isn't set up for all men 558 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: to be able to do that. And so it's it's 559 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: like we've been lied to, we've been betrayed, and there's 560 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: this frustration, and a lot of times that frustration taken 561 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: out on women. UM, LGBTQ people, immigrants, people of color. 562 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: There is this set of assumptions and stories that that 563 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: that men have been told about themselves and if their lives, yes, 564 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: their lies. I see all this pain and trauma around 565 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: these sort of expectations around patriarchy. Does your research tell 566 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: us anything about how men can begin to heal around this? 567 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: I guess what the work is. I think that's a 568 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: great question, and my research is primarily with with women. 569 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: But I think that this is like some introduction to 570 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: sociology stuff. Gender is a social construction. I think a 571 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: lot of people think that what they've been told and 572 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: what they've learned is natural, and that becomes what they believe. 573 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: So because I'm a man, I'm entitled to a B, C, 574 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: and D and that's the natural order of things. And 575 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: so if you don't understand that gender is constructed in 576 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: a particular way where men are at the top and 577 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: women are at the bottom, and then whoever is deviating 578 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: from that is even further at the bottom, then it's 579 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: much easier for you to believe those narratives and to 580 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,879 Speaker 1: believe those lies because we've been thought that. But we 581 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: also in many ways perpetuate this. So called natural order 582 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: of of male superiority to women, And so it's the 583 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: work has to start pretty simply, which is, it's actually 584 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 1: not true. What they told you was a lie. They 585 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: made it up so that they could create a particular 586 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: learn kind of society that operates a particular kind of 587 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: way and benefits a particular kind of person. So if 588 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:13,439 Speaker 1: we understand that masculinity and femininity are construction and they're 589 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: made real by our performance of them, then that can 590 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: help us go a long way. So if you read 591 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: this article, it's called doing gender. They have this story 592 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: where they share where agnes Um is a trans woman 593 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: and she's deating this assist herald man, and he basically 594 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: tells her, you can't do this because men will think 595 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: that you're overbearing. You should sit this way, you should 596 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: dress that way. So what that man is actually alluding 597 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: to is trans women are learning the performance of femininity, 598 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: and he appreciates that because part of that performance means 599 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: that they're performing as though men are superior, they're performing 600 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: as the women are inferior. So to heal is to 601 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 1: come to the reality that what you're performing, how you're 602 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: defining yourself is all constructed in a particular way to 603 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: serve a particular kind of purpose. Now I don't know 604 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: how how you move forward from there, but you know, 605 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: I think it's it's kind of like a you just 606 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: got to admit this is who I am, this is 607 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: what it is, So we got to admit first, gender 608 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: is a construction. So how am I playing into that narrative? 609 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: And maybe that's where men sis herold men who can 610 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: find the liberation that they need. And there are plenty 611 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: of sis herold men that understand this, so it's not 612 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: like they have to walk alone. So the education is 613 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: there if people want to seek it out. If you 614 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: just want to lie and feel sorry for yourself, you 615 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: want to you know, grovel in the emasculation and that 616 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: kind of thing you can, but that's not used in 617 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: your agency. And literally, humanity is all about being able 618 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 1: to use our agency. So if you want to grab 619 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: onto your your your humanity, then you can learn more 620 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: about what it is you're feeling and why you feel 621 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: that way. Well, I think it's not always wallowing in 622 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: any masculation. A lot of times it's about blaming other people. 623 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,280 Speaker 1: It's about lashing out, right. It often functions and lashing 624 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: out and get people for various things. And the one 625 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: thing I'll say about my own men who said they, 626 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,879 Speaker 1: you know, appreciate trans women sort of embracing a certain 627 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: kind of femininity, that like the reality of my experience 628 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: and dating is that even though a man might be 629 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: attracted to me because he presumes I embraced a certain 630 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: kind of feminity, wants it, gets to know me and 631 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: understands I'm feminists and understands that I'm not really interested 632 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: in any of anything traditional. I don't want to get married. 633 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: There are a lot of things I don't want to do, 634 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: and so it's it's tricky, right, alrighty, it's that time again. 635 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: A lot more coming now, we'll be right back already. 636 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: Then let's just dive right back in. So much of 637 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: my experience as a trans woman has been like sort 638 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: of being fetishized and being sort of treated this sort 639 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: of fascination or experiment, and the experiences of so many 640 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: women of color are also very similar. Right, We're we're 641 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 1: fetishized in a really interesting and specific way. You know, 642 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 1: there's so many people over the years who have who 643 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: I've heard people say that, you know, I'm not racist, 644 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 1: I you know, my boyfriend's black or I'm not racist, 645 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: my girlfriend's black, And I'd like to remind those people 646 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: that slave owners had sex with the slaves, but that 647 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: does not mean that they were not engaged in a 648 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 1: system that subjugated black folks. So what I actually think 649 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: about racial fetish and relationship to trans fedish because I 650 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: think this we experienced a lot of women of color 651 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: online and trans women and around being fetishized. What what 652 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: is your research told you about that? That's what I 653 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: definitely found. One of the things I really wanted to 654 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: explore was, well, what does the exclusion of black women 655 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: look like online? And what is the inclusion of black 656 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: and non black women look like online? And so when 657 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 1: it comes to you know, in a racial dating, a 658 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: lot of times this inclusion is about fetishization. When you 659 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: see someone's full humanity, then your their power is equal 660 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: to yours. Fetishization is all about wielding your superiority over 661 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: some other person that you deem inferior, but you're upgrading 662 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: them because you think they fit a special category. If 663 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 1: you're not seeing people as fully human, So it's all 664 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: about I think about it as like colonization, right, because 665 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 1: we don't really see this fetishization the same way if 666 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: women are doing it, but with men, it's all about, oh, 667 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: I'm putting how I view you onto you. You're not 668 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: defining your humanity. I'm defining your humanity. So feticization is 669 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: all about power, and it's all about sis men being 670 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: able to put their view of what minority women are 671 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: like and obscuring their humanity at best and at worst, 672 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: defining it on behalf of women. And that's where the 673 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: assumptions come from, even when we talk about trans fetishization. 674 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: So it's like, well, because I think you care about 675 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: your femininity, this is what I think femininity is, these 676 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 1: traditional ways of being feminine. So once you don't fit that, 677 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: oh no, but then that's again me putting my assumption 678 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: of what I think femininity is onto you, and that's 679 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: a power play and nobody wants that. Yeah. I just 680 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: about this thing that I say to my girlfriend. She 681 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: was telling us a story about this guy they had 682 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: met online and she had gone to meet him downtown 683 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,319 Speaker 1: and he was like, um, okay, believe when I say this, 684 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: but he wanted to go into his car and have 685 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: sex with her in his car, and she was like, no, 686 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: you're gonna take me out if you're gonna do this, 687 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: And I said, girl, you wanting him to take you 688 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: out and treat you like a human being, that's your fantasy. 689 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: Him wanting to get you in the car, that's his fantasy, 690 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: And ultimately it's about his fantasy, not yours. So he 691 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 1: never took her out, right, she didn't. She didn't get 692 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: in the car. But like so often what I found, Um, 693 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: it's about their fantasy and not mine. And so one 694 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: has to be willing to walk away from their fantasy 695 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 1: because it's not going to serve as it just that 696 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: she wanted to get in the car, you know, And 697 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: I'm not shaming anybody for that. And that's the structure. 698 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: The structure is set up so that his fantasy is 699 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: probably sitized over your fantasy, and you don't have to 700 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: be about that. You can use your agency to resist 701 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: the structure and look for someone who wants to have 702 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: the same fantasy as you. Yeah, the fantasy that can 703 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: become a reality exactly. So you've talked about dating closet racist. 704 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: Can you explain what that looked like for you? Oh? Yes, 705 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:26,800 Speaker 1: I can. Um, Oh my god, this story is so embarrassing, 706 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: so basically I did it. This guy who you know, 707 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: said he was interested in black women and he was cute, 708 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: and I was like, I thought he was cute. I 709 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: thought he was interesting. And with me, you know, within 710 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,399 Speaker 1: two or three dates, we start to talk about race. 711 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 1: This is something I find important. It is important to 712 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: my own survival. So he's like, well, I think that 713 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 1: the idea was that he felt like I was too 714 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 1: much like Malcolm X and not enough like MLK. These 715 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: were the words that he used. So he felt that 716 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 1: racial progress we just have to wait. So he called 717 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: me militant. I was a militant black person, and that 718 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: I need to appreciate slow progress. And that's when I 719 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: knew I was in trouble because I was like, no, one, 720 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: that's about my humanity and it's about my blackness. It's 721 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: gonna tell me that I need to wait on progress. 722 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: And all of the people both Nigerian and African American 723 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 1: that have come before me and set me up for 724 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: where I am, they did not wait for progress. So 725 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,240 Speaker 1: that's when I was like, Oh, you might like black women, 726 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: but you don't like black humanity, so you're a closet racist. Wow, 727 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: that's really deep. How did it end. Did you say 728 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: that to him? Did you just like not call him back? 729 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 1: Because is there a moment where you thought, let me 730 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: see if there can be a transformational moment, a teachable 731 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: moment here? How did that play itself? So I'm ashamed 732 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: to admit that this casual relationship went on for a 733 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: little too long. It was like two or three months. 734 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 1: And there had been signs that he might be a 735 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: closet racist, that he might be someone who's like a 736 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 1: social conservative, like people need to make their own money. 737 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: But I'm like, you're living in an apartment that your 738 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,879 Speaker 1: parents are paying for, Like what are you actually talking about? Um? 739 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: And so these things sort of emerged, and so that 740 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,359 Speaker 1: was the last conversation we had. I dropped him off 741 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: at his house. Girl, he didn't even have a car. 742 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:39,959 Speaker 1: I dropped to make their own moneys didn't have a car. 743 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: But yet you want to talk about how people need 744 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: to pull themselves by the bootstraps, Okay, whatever, So all 745 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: that emerged. I dropped him off at his house and 746 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: I was just like, we're not gonna need to get along. 747 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: We don't agree on things that are very important to me. 748 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,239 Speaker 1: And then he called me and left me a long 749 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: message that I just deleted and I never spoke to 750 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,439 Speaker 1: him again. Hmmm, do you remember what the message said? 751 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,760 Speaker 1: I'm really sorry for the things I said. I didn't 752 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: mean it. I really hope that we can talk again. 753 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure that I understood those kinds of things. 754 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, blessed. It's hard. He's probably doing the very 755 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: best two cod ah and and as Berni Brown tells us, 756 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: if we assume people are doing the best that they can, 757 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,759 Speaker 1: then we must set boundary exactly. So my boundary was 758 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: I'm never going to see you again, and I need 759 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: to really be more careful about white men that I date. 760 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,360 Speaker 1: If I'm dating a white man, the signs are probably 761 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: always there. I just kind of was like, Oh he's cute, 762 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. But I was just like, oh, no, no, 763 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, I need to be way more careful. 764 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 1: I think, as if you're dating anyone, that this is 765 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: that we have to look for, because the information is 766 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: usually there. People are usually telling us who they are 767 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 1: through various actions, and it's our job. I think that's 768 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,320 Speaker 1: just part of the process that our job over time 769 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: is to learn what the what they're telling us and 770 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,200 Speaker 1: to discern that is faster. And I think the beautiful 771 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,359 Speaker 1: thing about what you've shared here is that I bet 772 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,799 Speaker 1: the next time you met a white man or any man, 773 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: you were more stupid, you were more adept than like 774 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: looking for those things. And so I think that's how 775 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 1: we learn, is that we have these experiences. Yeah, and 776 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,280 Speaker 1: that's part of the invisible work, invisible labor that black 777 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: women are are doing often times, right, this is the 778 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 1: work that you don't even know that you're doing it 779 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,280 Speaker 1: half the time. And everyone is doing this work in general, 780 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: and when they're dating and trying to make sure that 781 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: they're not hooking up with people who are toxic for them, 782 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 1: But then black women have this added layer of like, 783 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,839 Speaker 1: am I dating somebody who's about my humanity or not? 784 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: So I like to end every podcast with this question 785 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 1: what else is true? And it comes from the community 786 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,799 Speaker 1: resiliency model and the idea of shifting, stay and being 787 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 1: in this space of both and right that the world 788 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: might be very challenging right now, and it might be 789 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: hard for me, but there is something else that is true. 790 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: There's something that is positive or neutral in my body 791 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: and in my life that I can also focus on, 792 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: and so I'd like to ask you, Dr Sarah, what 793 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: else is true for you today? Well? What else is 794 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 1: true for me and for all the black women out 795 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,479 Speaker 1: there and for U Laverne is that black women are enough. 796 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 1: That's what else is true, m HM. In a world 797 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:41,000 Speaker 1: where black women are devalued and degraded, black women may 798 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 1: not feel as fair enough, but their humanity already exists. 799 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: They just need to wake up and walk in it. Amen. Amen, 800 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 1: I am enough. You are enough. Praise being. Thank you 801 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 1: so much, Dr Sarah. Where can people find you online? 802 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,759 Speaker 1: You can find any of my work, any of my 803 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,440 Speaker 1: articles on Twitter at love e scold and so everything 804 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: that I've published is available via link that way, and 805 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 1: folks are also free to email me as long as 806 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,080 Speaker 1: they're not stalking me or sending me bad messages. Um 807 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:22,600 Speaker 1: Sarah dot Audienca Scold Audienca hyphen scold at Fermin dot 808 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: du so. People can reach me there, but Twitter is 809 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,040 Speaker 1: probably the best way to reach me. If you're looking 810 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 1: for me, um it's Dr Sarah a s. You can 811 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 1: also find me that way. So yeah, amazing. Thank you 812 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,000 Speaker 1: so much for your work, your research, and thank you 813 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,640 Speaker 1: so much for spending time with me today, no problem. 814 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,279 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it, 815 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:58,800 Speaker 1: and it was really a lovely conversation. Yea. I wasn't 816 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,759 Speaker 1: prepared for how difficult this one would be for me. 817 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,880 Speaker 1: I think it's because it's the piece of weaving in 818 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,520 Speaker 1: my own kind of personal narrative and how painful a 819 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 1: lot of it's been for me. So I'm so very 820 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 1: grateful to Sarah having that sort of courage to be 821 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,759 Speaker 1: vulnerable and to talk me through it and to give 822 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,839 Speaker 1: me great data, research and perspective to try to get 823 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,960 Speaker 1: to something hopefully that is substantial for me and for 824 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:48,760 Speaker 1: all of you. Thank you for listening to The Laverne 825 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,320 Speaker 1: Cox Show. If you like what you hear, please rate, review, 826 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 1: subscribe and share with everyone you know. Join me next 827 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,320 Speaker 1: week when I talked to Dr Karen Franklin, for forensic 828 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,680 Speaker 1: psychologist and award winning researcher about why some people target 829 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,000 Speaker 1: transgender and other sexual and gender minorities and assaults and 830 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,840 Speaker 1: hate crimes. Knowing why it is the first step to change. 831 00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,640 Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne 832 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:33,120 Speaker 1: Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real. The 833 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,760 Speaker 1: Laverne Cox show is a production of Shonda land Audio 834 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,279 Speaker 1: in partnership with I heart Radio. For more podcasts from 835 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:43,279 Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 836 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.