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Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening to podcast

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Speaker 1: you Can't Predict Anything, brought to you by first Light.

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Speaker 1: This week, first Light is celebrating its annual White Tail Week,

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Speaker 1: where you can tune in for tips, tricks and tactics,

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Speaker 1: as well as incredible deals site wise. Check it out

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Speaker 1: first light dot com, f I R S T L

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Speaker 1: I t E dot com.

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Speaker 2: You hunt Big Game two?

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Speaker 3: I have?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, I've got a I haven't hunted big game

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Speaker 4: in about four years now, but I've shot a lot

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Speaker 4: of deer, antelope, elk, bighorn, sheep, you bears, and I

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Speaker 4: just I train dogs and a bird hunt. That's what

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Speaker 4: I do now.

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Speaker 5: And so that's podcast. Yeah, earlier this about in the podcast, I.

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Speaker 1: Might bring that pigeon down here in a couple of days.

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Speaker 1: Let him walk around up here.

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Speaker 5: At home, build a little roost for him in here.

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Speaker 1: Pretty tame, extremely tame. Nice when you all it tries

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Speaker 1: to do is get into the house. You're kidding me,

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Speaker 1: because it knows people are in the house.

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Speaker 4: Did you raise it?

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Speaker 1: My kids did?

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Speaker 4: It's not going to be a shooter then, right, No,

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Speaker 4: you got to.

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Speaker 6: Pass for forty of his uh roostmates went to bird

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Speaker 6: dog trainers.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, but this was so what's his name?

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Speaker 1: Peanut butter? Peanut but because there was peanut butter and

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Speaker 1: jelly but jelly, Uh, John had to get euthanized. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had a health had a congenital birth effect as

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Speaker 1: far as we can tell.

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Speaker 4: Come on, you really did euthanize it. You didn't train it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well it had as it started passing its own intestine.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, real buzz kills. Yeah, yeah, Brody is over.

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Speaker 5: Is peanut Butter aware of the windows outside and know where?

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Speaker 1: But it knows where the door is. It goes to

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Speaker 1: the door.

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Speaker 4: Unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: Does it live outside?

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Speaker 1: Lives outside?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Nice, it's at a bird sitters house? Right now?

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Speaker 5: Did he fly over there?

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Speaker 1: You got the pigeon Gooso comes back home.

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Speaker 2: This is the start of the show.

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Speaker 1: We're already rolling. Give me your book. There you go, Phil,

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Speaker 1: where's a good spot.

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Speaker 2: That's a great spot.

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Speaker 1: That looks good. Yeah, we're missing the bottom.

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Speaker 3: Quarter of the book of the cover, but we've got

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Speaker 3: the time.

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Speaker 1: That's better. That's better. Joined today by Diane Boyd, who

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Speaker 1: came on the you were on the show.

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Speaker 4: A while ago, probably five years now.

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Speaker 1: Five years ago, way back in episode one, six six days. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that was a great episode.

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Speaker 4: Thanks you made it great.

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Speaker 1: We did an episode called Hunting with Teeth with Diane

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Speaker 1: Boyd lay out your can Can you lay out your

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Speaker 1: your an abbreviated form of your resume so people know

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Speaker 1: what you're all about?

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Speaker 4: Oh golly, yeah. I started working with wolves in Minnesota

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Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy six. I was just a child prodigy,

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Speaker 4: Not really, I'm just old. And anyway, I picked up

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Speaker 4: Minnesota wolves. I went worked in Wild the Wolves in

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Speaker 4: Northern Minnesota, and then I worked as a for one

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Speaker 4: summer before I came to Montana as a depredation control

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Speaker 4: trapper and research collar northern Minnesota. And then I moved

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Speaker 4: to Montana in seventy nine to pursue a couple of

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Speaker 4: graduate degrees. And I basically started with the first wolf

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Speaker 4: that walked down from Canada and have maintained wolf reintroduction,

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Speaker 4: recolonization information, all those yeares so kind of from the

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Speaker 4: first wolf to three thousand wolf. Now that's what we

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Speaker 4: got in the West.

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Speaker 1: Got it? And reason I like the reason I like

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Speaker 1: Diane Boyd and reach he's back on the show. Is

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Speaker 1: you caught a lot of the hysteria and a lot

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Speaker 1: of the on each side. If I don't know it,

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Speaker 1: it's not right, especially in today's climate of an election season.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to put it as the left and

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Speaker 1: the right. How do you put it the inn and

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Speaker 1: the yang? Now? Okay, if this can you see the

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Speaker 1: book and my hand film, if this is attitudes of wolves,

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Speaker 1: and this is what this side is that they're going

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Speaker 1: to kill your children, okay? And this side is that

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Speaker 1: they snuggle fawns.

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Speaker 6: They're going to save the planet, that they're gonna.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're gonna save the planet, and and and and

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Speaker 1: reverse climate change. Diane Boyd is, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: have you be the middle finger.

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Speaker 4: That's a bad thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna move this finger over where the middle finger lives.

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Speaker 5: Great because it's like diet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she gives the middle finger to the sides.

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Speaker 7: I like that.

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Speaker 2: Never that way.

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Speaker 1: And she's got a new book coming out, A Woman

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Speaker 1: among Wolves, My Journey through forty Years of Wolf Recovery.

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Speaker 1: When is it available? Right?

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Speaker 4: So it's coming out September tenth, it's being released and

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Speaker 4: you can pre ordered on Amazon and Barnes and Nobles.

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Speaker 4: It's up there now, got it.

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Speaker 1: My mom's husband, my mom got married. After my dad died,

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Speaker 1: my mom got remarried. Now that guy passed away. You

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Speaker 1: know he called Barnes and Noble. He called it books

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Speaker 1: and Nobles.

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Speaker 2: Wow, makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was MacDonald's and it was Books and Nobles.

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Speaker 2: Uh, case you forget later. I think you should ask Diane.

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Speaker 2: She's gonna read her own audiobook.

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Speaker 1: Oh listen, I'm gonna tell you the audiobook. Don't don't

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Speaker 1: have them to do a person. Don't bring in a

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Speaker 1: soap opera person. Who's going to do the audiobook.

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Speaker 4: It's got to be you. Do you want to start

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Speaker 4: a little bit? So my Graystone Publishing sold the audio

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Speaker 4: rights to a media company.

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Speaker 1: Ye, and that's how that's normal.

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Speaker 4: They hired a professional actress to read.

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Speaker 1: Did you really come in there and complain?

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Speaker 7: Well?

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Speaker 4: I didn't know that, And then when I found out,

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Speaker 4: I just said, well, you know, I know the story

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Speaker 4: pretty well, and I do a lot of public speaking,

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Speaker 4: and I think I've got an engaging voice, even with

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Speaker 4: my Fargo accent. So they had me send an audio

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Speaker 4: edition and they wrote me back and he said, well,

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Speaker 4: if you want to do the reading, we're going to

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Speaker 4: have to basically train you and it's going to take

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Speaker 4: a lot of time and blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: So you know why they're telling me that they got

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Speaker 1: these holsers that do it all the time. Okay, and

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Speaker 1: they come in they know they're going to get it

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Speaker 1: done in two days whatever. Don't let that happen. I

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Speaker 1: let that happen before, and I've mentioned bunch of times.

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Speaker 1: I let that happen before. I got the thing in.

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Speaker 1: I turned it on and I could not cross the

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Speaker 1: room quick enough to turn it off the minute that

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Speaker 1: person opened their mouth, Because like, you live your work,

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Speaker 1: yeah right, and when you're writing it, you're it's you.

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Speaker 1: You're it's you know what I mean. You're doing it,

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Speaker 1: you're saying it, you're reading it to yourself, you're making

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Speaker 1: it perfect, and then some other person picks it up

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Speaker 1: and touches it. It's like watching It's like, are you married? No,

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Speaker 1: If you were, it would be like watching someone handle

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Speaker 1: your husband.

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Speaker 4: That was an impossibility. I was married briefly, Okay, I

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Speaker 4: get it.

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Speaker 7: You get it.

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Speaker 1: Picture that you were still married. You really liked him,

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Speaker 1: and you had to watch someone else, right.

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Speaker 4: No go. But anyway, I the other thing was they're

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Speaker 4: doing this. They wanted to be done when the book

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Speaker 4: is released in September tenth, and I'm going bird hunting.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I got stuff to do, and I actually

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Speaker 4: just don't. At this point, I just threw my hands

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Speaker 4: upisode whatever. Yeah, I'm okay, thank you though.

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Speaker 2: Next time, next time.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate the advice.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I knew.

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Speaker 1: Whitetail Week coming up here at me Eiter one week

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Speaker 1: only nine to thirty to ten six. White Tail Week's

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Speaker 1: the best time stock up on whitetail gear with deals

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Speaker 1: from first like FHF Gear, Phelps, game calls, Dave Smith,

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Speaker 1: Decoy's at the me Eater store, plus a full week

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Speaker 1: of white tail content we've done he's in the past.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, there's a TV channel that has

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Speaker 1: a they celebrate a fish all week every year. It's

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Speaker 1: like that, but it's for people that like white tails.

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Speaker 1: Oh you know, it's funny. I'm working on this new

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Speaker 1: project and we got to do a bunch of scuba

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Speaker 1: diving over the last week, and we had these underwater

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Speaker 1: It's like an you can talk underwater. It's a special

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Speaker 1: mask like you don't, you know, normally use a you

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Speaker 1: have like a breathing apparatus and a regular mask. But

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Speaker 1: it's this big contained things you can hold a button

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Speaker 1: like talk underwater to people, it's hard to be heard

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Speaker 1: and h it's just it's not a perfect system, as

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Speaker 1: you can imagine talking underwater and someone so we rented

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Speaker 1: this equipment from this place that rents this stuff out,

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Speaker 1: and like, well, how in the world on Shark Week

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Speaker 1: are they all talking to each other underwater? He goes, Oh,

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Speaker 1: they dubed that all the uh mid uh this is

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Speaker 1: you folks will appreciate this. Sometime between mid and end

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Speaker 1: of September, The Fucked Up Bullshitters Calendar is out. It's

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Speaker 1: the third in our ft up series. We the Deer

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Speaker 1: Stands Taxidermy and now it shitters. Some of the world's

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Speaker 1: best and worst worst not best, yeah, the best of

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Speaker 1: the worst old shitters laying around out in the woods

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Speaker 1: from the Arctic to the Midwest and probably points south.

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Speaker 2: Did you do captions this time?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, great captions.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I don't know that I'd say that they're

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Speaker 6: all the worst because some of them are just intriguing intriguing,

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Speaker 6: like you you'd want to give them a run.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, carved out a giant tree stumps. So like one, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one is sort of I don't know what. It looks like,

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Speaker 1: a giant redwood or a sequoia or something. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what it is, probably not. No, it's a cedar,

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Speaker 1: a huge Western red seedar, that's what it is. And

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Speaker 1: they carved a shitter out of a Western red seater.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful. So in the caption process, we sit around

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Speaker 1: thinking of what would be funny, and we're like, something

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Speaker 1: to do with e walks would be funny, and then

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Speaker 1: you work that into a caption. There's one that is

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Speaker 1: very Southwest and when I looked at it, I thought

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Speaker 1: of the Alamo. And so then you work up a

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Speaker 1: caption that's like a joke about the Alamo. That's all

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Speaker 1: that process.

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Speaker 2: Are there any uh outhouses or ships that you wouldn't

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Speaker 2: want to Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are. I'd say the one I wouldn't want

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Speaker 1: to do the want need of an upholstery job.

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Speaker 6: I wouldn't touch that thing until someone's mm hmm.

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Speaker 5: There was definitely something that made me lose my faith

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Speaker 5: in humanity, like gross like stuff.

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Speaker 1: That didn't make the cut. There's nothing gross about the count.

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Speaker 5: No, no, no, we had some gross submissions, a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of gross submissions. There was none of our submissions has

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Speaker 1: none of the submissions are like poor etiquette. None of

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Speaker 1: the submissions. There's no there's no fecal matter. There were a.

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Speaker 5: Couple that you guys didn't see that.

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Speaker 3: We're being used the people send in.

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Speaker 1: Oh you cut those out. We have no people in it.

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Speaker 2: I didn't.

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Speaker 3: I didn't think they'd make the cut, so I didn't

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Speaker 3: send those alone.

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Speaker 1: It's twelve months, that's how many months, or in a year,

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Speaker 1: it's twelve months of beautiful photography of if you were

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Speaker 1: wandering around out in the woods, or wandering around up

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Speaker 1: in the Arctic, or wandering around wherever, and you came

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Speaker 1: into a and you came across an old shitter, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, gow the stories that old shitter could tell,

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Speaker 1: that's what this calendar is all about.

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Speaker 6: And they're all shitters you'd tell someone about. Oh, you're like,

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Speaker 6: you wouldn't believe what I found.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, If you were hunting with your buddy or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and you went off to go check on something and

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Speaker 1: you encountered one of these shitters and you came back.

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Speaker 1: I don't care. If you saw two booner bucks fighting

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Speaker 1: and stuck together, you'd run back to your body and

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Speaker 1: you'd be like, you would not believe the shitter. I

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Speaker 1: just saw it.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 1: Plus, there's two booner bucks stuck together over there. That's

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Speaker 1: how that that's the quality of these shitters.

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Speaker 2: Like recently, I was was last hunting season, I was

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Speaker 2: up on the Rocky Mountain front, and that Augusta showedo zone.

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Speaker 2: You've probably Randall. Seems like you've been to every bar

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Speaker 2: in every small town in Montana's you've probably been to

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Speaker 2: this one. But in their bathrooms they have pictures of

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Speaker 2: uh some outhouses. And one of the favorite ones I've seen,

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Speaker 2: it's like it's you can see the front, but the

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Speaker 2: outhouses out in the flats and it's got these it

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Speaker 2: looks like two telephone poles that are wedged like between

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Speaker 2: it's like upper corners at the eve and the ground,

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Speaker 2: just basically meaning that the wind blows so hard there

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Speaker 2: that if this outhouse isn't supported with telephone poles, like

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Speaker 2: you know at an angle.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna lift it off.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, or at least that was brutalized by the wind.

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Speaker 5: Pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just there's just you're looking down a hill and

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Speaker 1: you can just see the the shitter blown off away.

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Speaker 1: We also had a lot of tandems, and we only

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Speaker 1: put one tandem in because I don't I don't really understand,

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Speaker 1: like my when my little kids were littler, I could

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Speaker 1: see them utilizing a tandem, but.

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Speaker 5: You wouldn't park next to you on in the morning.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to utilize the tandem, right.

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Speaker 4: I know of a use for a tandem out house

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Speaker 4: at the pace. So my first year up there in

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Speaker 4: seventy nine, got Giardia and there was a two seater

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Speaker 4: outhouse and there was a moment one day when I

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Speaker 4: needed to use both holes at the same time, just saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do you know what the next installment of ft UP.

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Speaker 1: I want to do. It's a it's a photographic challenge.

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Speaker 1: I want to do fish cleaning stations or just fucked

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Speaker 1: up old fisher man. But I'd like to do fish

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Speaker 1: cleaning stations, just the nastiest, grossest fish clean stations. But

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Speaker 1: it's hard to capture the smell. Never scratch and sniff.

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Speaker 1: When you were a kid, if you could scratch and

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Speaker 1: sniff old fish cleaning stations.

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Speaker 5: Hit too nice. Now after the fix up joke.

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Speaker 1: It wouldn't even be good anymore. I know we got

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Speaker 1: ruined for that. Yeah, I'm not sure, but this one is.

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Speaker 1: This one is great if you know someone else appreciates

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Speaker 1: an old out house. Oh one of these old out

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Speaker 1: houses that got caught on fire and put out. And

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Speaker 1: I was trying to think of a taco bell joke

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Speaker 1: fire too many flaming hot cheetos. But I think on

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Speaker 1: that one, the joke landed around like it was from

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Speaker 1: Southeast Alaska, and I think the joke was something about

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Speaker 1: how hard it is to get anything to burn in

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Speaker 1: southeast Alaska, but nothing wants to burn there, so how

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Speaker 1: would you get, you know, some kind of joke like that.

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Speaker 1: A couple thoughts from Helfelfinger on a past episode. It's

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Speaker 1: a rebuttal, it's a retraction. It's actually not. It's a fortification.

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Speaker 1: But half a Finger had a good quote. It's not

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Speaker 1: his quote. He wrote it down. A retraction never gets

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Speaker 1: the traction of the reaction to the original action. Once again,

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Speaker 1: a retraction never gets the from the top. A retraction

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Speaker 1: never gets the traction of the reaction to the original action.

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Speaker 1: A great illustration of that would be when it came

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Speaker 1: out two I can think of years ago, it came

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Speaker 1: out that like a guy supposedly got died from eating

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Speaker 1: squirrel brains, and then it was all that was everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Every news agency picked this article up, and then it

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Speaker 1: came out, well, actually, no, he just died of a

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Speaker 1: brain disease. And in his past he had eaten a

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Speaker 1: squirrel brain. So of the one hundred or two hundred

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Speaker 1: people that die of this every year, he happened in

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Speaker 1: his history had eaten a squirrel brain. And it just

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Speaker 1: didn't quite get the traction of the reaction to the

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Speaker 1: original action. I was commenting. I used to always tell people.

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Speaker 1: I used to somehow, somehow, it was told to me

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Speaker 1: that automobile insurance companies often pushed to reduce deer numbers

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Speaker 1: so that to reduce their premium load from all the

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Speaker 1: claims made from crashing and cars hitting things. So agricultural interests,

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Speaker 1: and I would say, automobile interests, automobile insurance interests would

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Speaker 1: like to suppressed dear numbers. Now helfle Finger, I don't

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Speaker 1: know where he hangs out. He's saying automobile insurance companies

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Speaker 1: plural have told Helfflefinger personally they have no interest in

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Speaker 1: spending any money to reduce audio collisions because they just

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Speaker 1: run the numbers and charge whatever premium they need to

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Speaker 1: cover collisions with deer, while they want to spend time

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Speaker 1: or money on something that might reduce deer collisions like overpasses,

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Speaker 1: when they can just simply take it into consideration when

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Speaker 1: they do all their math, they pass it along to

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Speaker 1: the consumer also, so Hefflefinger commented on that. Hefflefinger commented

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Speaker 1: on this. We were discussing a plan taking route in

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma and elsewhere of taking this is a little bit complicated.

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Speaker 1: Some white tailed deer farmers, white tail deer ranchers that

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Speaker 1: hell you call them, that believe they have some deer

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Speaker 1: that are resistant to CWD, meaning they'll have a population

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Speaker 1: deer and some de just don't get it. And they're saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: we should take these deer that don't get it and

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Speaker 1: seed wild populations with our resistant deer in the hopes

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Speaker 1: of sort of speeding along or making you know, these

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Speaker 1: deer have a g mutation that makes them not so susceptible.

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Speaker 1: Let's put them out in the wild, and hopefully they'll

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Speaker 1: breed with wild deer and eventually we will create this

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Speaker 1: CWD resistant wild deer herds, which just strikes me as

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Speaker 1: like incredibly dubious health. A finger says, deer with that

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Speaker 1: genetic combo are not resistant to c w D. They

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Speaker 1: just don't die as fast, and it's not a good

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Speaker 1: thing to have CWD positive deer running around for a

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Speaker 1: longer period of time in the environment shutting infectious prions.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember if I decided on preons or prions.

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Speaker 6: What do you say, primes?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm gonna stick with the Pandora's box is

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Speaker 1: that when you intensively select for those CWD related genes

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Speaker 1: in captivity, you are also selecting for other genes that

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Speaker 1: are close to them on the same chromosome. Genes that

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Speaker 1: are physically close to one another on the same chromosome

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Speaker 1: are inherited together at a higher rate. We have no

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Speaker 1: idea what those other nearby genes are. They might be

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Speaker 1: genes that lower reproductive rate, produce smaller antlers, a higher

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Speaker 1: susceptibility to other diseases. Tameness, who knows. It's just a

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Speaker 1: bad idea to circumvent natural selection for a lot of reasons,

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Speaker 1: and this would never move the needle on CWD spread

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Speaker 1: or prevalence in the wild. These genes associated with deer

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Speaker 1: surviving longer with CWD are in fact increasing in frequency

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Speaker 1: in the wild populations through natural selection, but very slowly.

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Speaker 1: Steve's point is right. Ha, that's my favorite part of

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Speaker 1: the letter. I don't even know what I said. This

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Speaker 1: makes me feel like when I once every five years

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Speaker 1: and I go bowling, and I always get like at

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Speaker 1: least one strike. Steve's point is right that releasing a

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Speaker 1: few more of those animals from captivity is not going

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Speaker 1: to change gene frequencies in a free ranging wild population

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Speaker 1: and has the potential to do harm. He goes on

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Speaker 1: to say, if you like Sonoran hot dogs, Guero, which

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Speaker 1: I do, well, I think that's what he's talking about.

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Speaker 1: Who's gonna take a stab at this?

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Speaker 2: Guero Canelo?

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Speaker 1: Guero Canelo very good, top ten and two sound number

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Speaker 1: one in his opinion, But prices have gone up in

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Speaker 1: a way that the exceeds the quality of the food.

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Speaker 2: He says, no, no, no, no, Guero Canelo is where I

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Speaker 2: always take you. He's giving you a another option.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, we plugged Guero Canelo in a Trivia episode.

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Speaker 1: Oh, and he's saying, las cerrita del roro, h is

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Speaker 1: a better Mexican hot dog.

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Speaker 2: I think it's La care delro but you're close. Is

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Speaker 2: that as good? That's in Tucson as well, Yes, where

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Speaker 2: the Snoran dogs are famous, and it looks way different.

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Speaker 2: And I think he can didn't he read what goes

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Speaker 2: on there and what is?

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Speaker 1: Or he wrote sorry, but yep, Jim, if you Jim's

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Speaker 1: got his eyes on a good Mexican hot dog. Another rebuttal.

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Speaker 1: This is a rebuttal from Bubbly Doug.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna eat him in January.

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Speaker 1: Half a finger. Bubbly Doug are sort of the main

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Speaker 1: rebuttal generators and clarification generators, but.

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Speaker 8: This is from Doug's splash like a friend.

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Speaker 1: Doug's friend you. Doug's friend is very annoyed about something

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Speaker 1: I said about c w D. And I've said this,

401
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: and I've said it before. I don't love if I'll

402
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Speaker 1: say it again. But there's a there's a point I

403
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Speaker 1: often make, and and all it always irritates some people,

404
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: but I just I say it because it's just it's

405
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Speaker 1: a true feeling that I have in discussing chronic waste

406
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Speaker 1: and disease in deer, I often say the thing most scary.

407
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Speaker 1: This is not what I say, but I'm trying to

408
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: say it in cleaner terms. What's horrifying to me is

409
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Speaker 1: that some hunter out there. It horrifies me that some

410
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Speaker 1: hunter out there would contract CWD from a deer and

411
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: it would jump the species barrier. And so because it

412
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Speaker 1: because it's so alarming to me, it's so scary to me,

413
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Speaker 1: I'll often say that that I'll put some statistic around

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Speaker 1: it where I'll try to say, you know, I might

415
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Speaker 1: say something to the effect of ninety percent of my

416
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: concern about chronic waste and diseases, it's going to pass

417
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: to some that some hunter is gonna get it. And

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00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: if it were to jump the species barrier, just it

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00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: would just change deer hunting. It would change deer management,

420
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 1: it would change deer hunting, it would change the perception

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Speaker 1: of deer, like we put a huge cultural value on

422
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Speaker 1: deer if they were this thing that was causing you know,

423
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Speaker 1: like like these sort of like horrible prolonged deaths from

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00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,959
Speaker 1: like prion diseases and humans. I mean, it's it's just

425
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: disgusting to even think about. So when I track see

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00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: when I when I follow news about CWD and try

427
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: to advocate on behalf of research around CWD and trying

428
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: to stop the spread of CWD. A huge part of

429
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: my motivation is that, like, it just makes me sick

430
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Speaker 1: to think about anyone, my kids, whatever, somehow doing this

431
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: and the implication how it would affect my diet. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of like the main thing I'd like to eat.

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Speaker 1: Dear me, Uh, this does not go over well with

434
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Speaker 1: some people, and don't Ug's friend who's a landowner farmer

435
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: in the state of Washington. She says, if Steve's biggest

436
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: concern with CWD is the potential risk to humans, it

437
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: feels contradictory to the values he often expresses as a conservationist.

438
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: You could be a humanist and a conservation at the

439
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: same time. But back to the letter, it gives the

440
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: impression that he values animal welfare less than he claims,

441
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: which stands in contrast to his usual corn arguments against

442
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: vegans that he likely cares more for animals and understands

443
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 1: them better than they do. It's frustrating to hear him

444
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: repeatedly say that his greatest worry is the disease jumping

445
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: to humans when animal welfare is at stake right now,

446
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: it's not just Doug who's upset about this, me too.

447
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: And she goes on as well to counter my observation

448
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: that if another thing I've said about CWD, then we'renna leave.

449
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave the subject behind for a minute. Another

450
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: thing I will frequently say about CWD is how can

451
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: it be? Or why is it that I'm so afraid

452
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: of it jumping the species barrier to humans. I would

453
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: feel that livestock producers would be more afraid than I am, because,

454
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: as I said, a cow in a sheep look a

455
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: hell of a lot more like a deer than I do.

456
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 5: All you gotta look at is like what happened with

457
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 5: mad cow disease written right, they can imagine that across

458
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 5: the entire United States.

459
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: Correct what it would do to the cattle ustry. And

460
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: this person is countering. She's saying, I don't think they're

461
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: not worried about this. I can't really do a tit

462
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: for tat on that issue. I understand what you're saying

463
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: about animal welfare. I'm just telling you a thing that like, like,

464
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: for instance, when my kids out playing in the road, okay,

465
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: and I get nervous that they're chasing there, that they're

466
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: that they go to chase their baseball across the highway

467
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: without looking. And I'm like, man, the main thing that

468
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: worries me about my kid chasing the ball across the

469
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: highway is that my kid will get hit by a car.

470
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: Someone would say like, well, that doesn't go with your

471
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: view as a conservationist, because why are you not so

472
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: worried about the deer that get hit on the road.

473
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 1: Aren't you worried about animal welfare? I'm like, yes, not

474
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: as worried any about my kid get hit on the road.

475
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

476
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 5: I mean I read this as like the only thing

477
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 5: you're concerned about is humans. But what I said, I know,

478
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 5: but that's what it kind of sounds like she's saying here,

479
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 5: like you can be concerned about humans and worry about

480
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 5: the deer herds too.

481
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. When I see a deer run across the room,

482
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: I was like the driver I freaked out on. I

483
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: was in the pastor's seat and I freaked out on.

484
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: The guy'd be like, slow down, dude, how do you

485
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: know there's not more.

486
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: I think that she's just I think it's a she.

487
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: I don't know why it is because.

488
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: And the fact that he says she.

489
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: But I think she's pointing out that maybe there's a

490
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 2: constant O middle when you talk about CWD, about that part,

491
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: I always qualify that part.

492
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 6: I also think it's hard to I mean, the CWD

493
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 6: is going to be a lot worse for deer if

494
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 6: people get it from deer, Like, if you're concerned about

495
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 6: deer as a whole, if it jumps the species barrier,

496
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 6: CWD is going to be a much worse outcome for

497
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 6: our white tail populations as a whole.

498
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: And if it jumps the species, yeah, if it jumps

499
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: the species barrier into cattle, and all of a sudden,

500
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: we have to have the same conversations about deer and

501
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: CWD as we do about free ranging buffalo and cattle

502
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: because of brucellosis. And people are like, hey, man, if

503
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: the state owns the deer, keep those deer away from

504
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: my place.

505
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a it's a much darker picture for not

506
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 6: only people, but the health of deer as a whole

507
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 6: if that were to happen.

508
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: And I don't omit. The other thing I don't omit

509
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: the other thing the same way. When I'm driving, or

510
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: I'm right in the car and I see a deer

511
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: cross and I see that the driver that I'm with

512
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: isn't thinking about how there's probably some following it, and

513
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, dude, so now come on. But if I

514
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: saw a kid run across the road, my reaction is

515
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: going to be even stronger. I'm gonna get out and

516
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: yelled the kid.

517
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

518
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: I think it's perfectly normal to be more worried about

519
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: your kids than deer. Then you are worried about like

520
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 3: the welfare of a deer, or deer is a population.

521
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: I do worry.

522
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, let me ask you this.

523
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 3: I think it's pretty valid.

524
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 6: If I could guarantee you that it would not jump

525
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 6: the species barrier, but you could get rid of it

526
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 6: by snapping your fingers, would you still get rid of CWD?

527
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, I mean that's the course.

528
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 6: And let's say it's like you can you can be

529
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 6: worried about one thing more than the other, but still

530
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 6: have concern for cw D as a problem for deer.

531
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: If we could spend money and get rid of EHD

532
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: in blue tongue, I'd be like, oh, let's go spend

533
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: the money and get rid of HD. In blue tongue, Yeah,

534
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 1: it's like it upsets any It upsets equilibrium and causes

535
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: a lot of trouble for deer hunters when their area

536
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: gets wiped out. It's like rags the riches on deer populations,

537
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: where you get a lot of deer and all of

538
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: a sudden you're like, well, we got a lot now, but

539
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: now that we got this many, just wait for EHD

540
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: to come through and then they'll be laying dead on

541
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: the side of some pond. I would still think we

542
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: should spend much money, and like, here's the thing too,

543
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: from their perspective, that's the reason I'm always advocating on research, Like,

544
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: knowing that there's that risk out there, study the hell

545
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: out of it. I think they should be. I think

546
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: there should be a lot of money getting pumped into

547
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: studying it. It's not like that perspective is not adversarial

548
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: to want to control what's going on. Who else to

549
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: talk about?

550
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 6: Wolves?

551
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 8: Me?

552
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: Where do we start? Let me ask you this question.

553
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: Can I remind you of something you told me the

554
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: last time?

555
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 9: Oh?

556
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, the last time you were on the show.

557
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: And I want to pick this up and have you

558
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: extend that logic. I want to see if you still

559
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: feel that way, and if you would extend it to

560
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: Colorado and just just run with this. You said something

561
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: that surprised me when you were on the show before.

562
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: You had said, had we never did we humans America's Americans? Whatever?

563
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: Had we never conducted had we decided to not do

564
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: a reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone National Park in the

565
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: frank Church Wilderness area, meaning have we not gone and

566
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: live captured wolves elsewhere and brought them to turn them loose?

567
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: We probably would have. I can't remember the exact way

568
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: you put it. We probably would have eventually landed in

569
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: the same spot we're at right now. From natural migration.

570
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 4: Yes, I still feel that way. And the only so

571
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 4: wolves are expanding globally in Canada. They're all over the

572
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 4: Midwest here in our west Europe, and the only place

573
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 4: where wolves have been reintroduced was Yellowstone and the frank

574
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 4: Church Mexican wolves, red wolves. But wolves have globally expanded

575
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 4: without any reintroduction. There's wolves in the Netherlands. Now, there's

576
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 4: wolves in Denmark. Nobody put them there. Wolves have been

577
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 4: getting there on their own and the wolves did get

578
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 4: to Colorado. They've had the first reproduction I think it

579
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 4: was twenty twenty or twenty twenty one from Wyoming wolves,

580
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 4: and those wolves ended up boot them being killed, but

581
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 4: they were getting there on their own. And I feel

582
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 4: very strongly that where Colorado is at since twenty twenty

583
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 4: is about where we were at in Montana in nineteen

584
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 4: seventy nine eighty when a few wolves started walking down

585
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 4: on their own power from Canada and slowly got a

586
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 4: toe hold, so to speak, and repopulated on their own.

587
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: Can you mentioned the Great Lakes? Can you move over?

588
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: Can we move over real quick to the Great Lakes?

589
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: And you can touch on that real quick? Talk about

590
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: that for a men like no reintroduction? Right, if we

591
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: look at in the northern Great Lakes, we have Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan,

592
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: anyone else have a stable viable population.

593
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 4: No Ile Royal. There was a recent reintroduction to Ile

594
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 4: Royal because the wolves are dying out other than that

595
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 4: Michigan waters.

596
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: Yes, can you give a little crash course on how

597
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: were they ever gone gone?

598
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 4: No?

599
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 7: Good question.

600
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 4: So when I left Minnesota in nineteen seventy nine working

601
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 4: with wolves, there was just under a thousand wolves, nine

602
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 4: hundred to one thousand wolves in Minnesota. There was a

603
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 4: handful in Wisconsin, probably less than a dozen. There was

604
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 4: maybe twenty five in Isle Royal that had gotten their

605
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 4: late forties early fifties by crossing the frozen Lake Superior

606
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 4: ice and that was it. And now there's I'm trying

607
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 4: to think of the numbers of wolves in the Midwest.

608
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 4: It's over a thousand, might be a couple thousand, three thousand.

609
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 4: I'm trying to think, have.

610
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 5: They been extirpated from Michigan.

611
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 4: Yes, they're extirpated from Michigan and Wisconsin. They were never

612
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 4: extirpated from Minnesota because the northern fourth or third of

613
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 4: the state is too remote roadless, so there always was

614
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 4: a stronghold. And I'm trying to think.

615
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: You're not calling me a liar when I say that

616
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: I saw a wolf track in the eastern up in

617
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four.

618
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 4: Are no, no what I saw?

619
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: I fight you?

620
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: No.

621
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I'm saying viable populations breading reproducing established packs.

622
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 8: No.

623
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 4: Because my friend Dick Theo was documenting wolves recovering to

624
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 4: Wisconsin starting and I think I think he saw his

625
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 4: first wolf track in like seventy two or seventy three,

626
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 4: they were trying and Michigan same thing. And actually there

627
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 4: was a reintroduction into Michigan in the up. It's nineteen seventy,

628
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 4: seventy four to seventy eight, somewhere in there. Seventy four

629
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 4: you can read about. It's in my book. And they

630
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 4: took four wolves from Minnesota and they transplanted them, reintroduced

631
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 4: them to northern Michigan. It was during just before deer seasons,

632
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 4: were they really and they eventually all four were killed

633
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 4: pretty quickly, So that.

634
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: What people guns, animal rights people.

635
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 4: Failing sorry for him in the Michigan winters. So that

636
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 4: was actually the very first wolf for introduction that I'm

637
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 4: aware of, and people don't.

638
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: Often who did that reinduction. It was like the state

639
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: was it real hot politically at the time.

640
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 4: You you didn't know about it. I'd say, no, it

641
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 4: wasn't right.

642
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: It's no internet, right, no.

643
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 4: Internet, no Facebook and on social media. So it was done.

644
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 4: They were held a little while in a pen and

645
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 4: then they were let go, and that was the model

646
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 4: for how they were going to reintroduce to wolf seat

647
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 4: to Yellowstone. So Yellowstone wasn't Yellowstone, Ido. Wasn't the first

648
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 4: reintroduction Michigan.

649
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: Was they took them from Minnesota and put them in Michigan. Yes,

650
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: I'm from Michigan. I didn't know that.

651
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 10: Google it.

652
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 4: Try it Michigan wolf for introduction if you're so, and

653
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 4: look in the seventies, I think seventy four. So yeah,

654
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 4: but none of them made it. And it wasn't that

655
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 4: they didn't know how to hunter, didn't know how to

656
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 4: find their way around because they're wild wolves, just that

657
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 4: too many people with guns. So anyway, that was you asked.

658
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 4: That was the first. And then of course our wolves

659
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 4: were coming down into Montana from the North Country from

660
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 4: Canada on their own.

661
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: What year were they so in the Rockies? So let's

662
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,919
Speaker 1: leave the Upper Midwest out of it. Yeah, so we'll

663
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: go from like the hundredths of Meridian west or whatever. Kay,

664
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: in what year can you say with some certainty there

665
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: were no wolves south of the Canadian border in the

666
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: whole west in the Yeah, in the whole West?

667
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 4: Well the statement so wolves have always trickled down, So

668
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 4: I can't say there was never a wolf. But in

669
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 4: terms of a viable breeding surviving.

670
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, I want to hear about that a

671
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: little bit.

672
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 4: Okay, So by they say generally by the nineteen thirties

673
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 4: wolves were extirpated as a viable population in the West.

674
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 4: But I know of individual people like what you just said,

675
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 4: who saw wolves, wolf tracks a wolf. There was a

676
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 4: wolf shot in Glacier Park in nineteen fifty three. There

677
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 4: was another wolf shot outside of Bulbridge in nineteen seventy.

678
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 4: There's individual shot, they get run over, they show up.

679
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 4: But in terms of a viable, reproducing population, nineteen thirties

680
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 4: is pretty well the date that they've chosen.

681
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: Okay, But since from nineteen thirty up until they will

682
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: come to focus on when a vible population came Yeah,

683
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: at any time along that there could have been singles

684
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: that would come down from camp.

685
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I hearing from people who live over on

686
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 4: the on the Rocky Mountain Front, the Blackfoot Indian Reservation,

687
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 4: Glacier Park, it's pretty remote, inaccessible, badger to med and

688
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,479
Speaker 4: people have seen wolves there more commonly than other parts

689
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 4: of Montana. And then of course they don't survive in

690
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 4: eastern Montana because.

691
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 7: They got nowhere to hide.

692
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 4: They show up, boom, they're dead.

693
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: Got it.

694
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 4: So there's been a little bit, but not reproduction.

695
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: Okay, And then when did they start coming down and

696
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: getting a foothold? And how did that? How did that work?

697
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: They keep using toll holding foothold, which.

698
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 4: Is which is there's They don't forget legholds anyway, one

699
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 4: of my better tools. Sorry, did you find it?

700
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 5: Yeah?

701
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 4: Go ahead.

702
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 5: A failed attempt by Northern Michigan University and the Michigan

703
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 5: DNR to reintroduce four wolves to the Upper Peninsula occurred

704
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy four. See Eventually wolves move from Wisconsin

705
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 5: to Upper Michigan following strong prey populations in the early nineties.

706
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 5: When'd you see that wolf track?

707
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 1: I saw a wolf track in nineteen ninety four?

708
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 5: Eastern up that that corroborates your your story, Try and

709
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 5: trap right again.

710
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: That's not far from the final resting place of my dog, Duchess.

711
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 5: Wolves got her?

712
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: Huh Nope, two guys named Ben and Matt got her.

713
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: Oh man, yep, well they were supposed to. Oh oh,

714
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: I gotch she was crippled up. Oh god, sorry god,

715
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: HER's not the right word.

716
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 4: Thank you for the back job, Brody.

717
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 5: Thanks.

718
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: So the question was oh from nineteen so nineteen thirty

719
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: there's around nineteen thirty, there's no viable population of wolves

720
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: left in the lower in the American West.

721
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 7: Yeah.

722
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 4: They even went in the parks with poisons and traps

723
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 4: and rifles and killed all the wolves inside Yellowstone and

724
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 4: Glacier and all the parks. Yeah, they were pretty well gone.

725
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 4: Coyotes didn't disappear, but wolves did.

726
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 5: Why is that white coyotes stick around?

727
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 4: I think because they're smaller, they have a higher reproductive capacity,

728
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 4: they breed more often, they're breeding in smaller units, and

729
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 4: people weren't so focused on eradicating coyotes. You know, you

730
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 4: see a wolf, by god, we've got to kill every

731
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 4: last one coyote like well whatever, it just not doesn't

732
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 4: it generate the emotional impact of hatred?

733
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 2: Gotcha?

734
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 5: What about Mexican gray wolves?

735
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 2: Were they always?

736
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 5: Were there always some north of the border or had

737
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 5: they been eliminated?

738
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: Also?

739
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 4: It's interesting, so the Mexican wolves were basically eliminated except

740
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 4: in Mexico, and there were a few into the southwest,

741
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 4: Arizona and New Mexico right at the border area. They

742
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 4: captured every last one. Then they could fund find out

743
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 4: of the wild. Roy McBride went there and I think

744
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 4: the last wild capture was about nineteen seventy early ninety seventies,

745
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 4: and they moved them into captive breeding facilities to help

746
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 4: build up the species, but their founding population was seven.

747
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 4: There's a lot of genetic concerns obviously with a bottleneck

748
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 4: of seven. So they're always managing and manipulating them to

749
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 4: try and maximize genetic diversity, including taking pups from captivity

750
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 4: at a young age and then finding a den in

751
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 4: the wild where the mothers got wild pups, and they'll

752
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 4: go sneak a couple of the captive pups like ten

753
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 4: days old. However, really and with a while once because

754
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 4: that has the desirable genetics.

755
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, what's that bird? Does that?

756
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 4: A coward?

757
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: Right?

758
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 4: They call them a parasite though, instead of an improvement.

759
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 7: Okay, so yeah, So.

760
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 4: The Mexican wolf, they were pretty well gone. And interestingly,

761
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 4: one of my first years in the Northwark I think

762
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: it was nineteen eighty, Chuck Johnkle brought up a Mexican

763
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 4: carnivore biologist, Pepe Trevino, and he showed me a polar

764
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 4: eight you know, photograph he brought up of a wolf.

765
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 4: It was like in a barn or a shed, and

766
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 4: he said, is that a wolf? Well, yeah, he says,

767
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 4: and I know it's a wild one because this is

768
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 4: a Mexican wolf from the Chiuaua area of Mexico and

769
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 4: it was coming to a ranch and it was a

770
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 4: male wolf and it was bringing deer legs and meat

771
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 4: to the ranch dog, who was a female on spade

772
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 4: because it was the last mate choice out there, and

773
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 4: they ended up the rancher could have just killed it,

774
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 4: everybody did, but he didn't. He called some authority said

775
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 4: if you don't come take this wolf away, we're going

776
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 4: to kill it. So they went and captured it and

777
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 4: held it in his barn until they moved it to

778
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 4: the zoo. But it's kind of a sad story, yeah,

779
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 4: the very last one.

780
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. But we played this on this podcast some time

781
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: ago and it was some bird from was I think

782
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 1: of some bird from Hawaii and it was the I

783
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: can't remember some bird species and it was just down

784
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: to one. It was down to a male or a

785
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: female and this bird species with duet I heard it. Yeah,

786
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 1: And so they have this recording of the last bird.

787
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: Let's say it was a male, the last male of

788
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: the species doing the duet without his without accompaniment, because

789
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: he like does his part and you wait and the

790
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: female supposed to Yeah, and it was gone.

791
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: I heard that.

792
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 4: It's kind of terrors at you a little bit.

793
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

794
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 4: Yeah.

795
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard a guy named Frank Glazer.

796
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 4: Old Pilot, different guy Don, that was Don Glazier, No,

797
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 4: I haven't.

798
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: He has a book called Alaska's Well, there's a book

799
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: about him called Alaska's Wolfman, huh. And he had gone

800
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: up to He gone out to Alaska very early and

801
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: was a market hunter for people building roads and people

802
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: building railroads and whatever, and eventually just became this very

803
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: accomplished hunter. And at the time they were trying to

804
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: get they were trying to do economic improvement for Eskimo

805
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: groups in northwest Alaska, and part of this economic improvement

806
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: plan was to introduce reindeer herding, which never never really

807
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: took so as they were trying to go into Eskimo

808
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: communities and the fads are trying to get Eskimo communities

809
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: establish raindeer populations, but they're having the hell of the

810
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: time with wolves, and so Frank Glazer, in addition to

811
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 1: a lot of aerial gunning, was doing bait operations and

812
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: he would go into an area and get them poison

813
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: bait yep, strict nine. He'd be able to go get

814
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: them all.

815
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 4: Yes.

816
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: In his book he talks a lot about all the

817
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: other stuff that would turn up at the bait pile,

818
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff, but it was so affect that

819
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: he doesn't talk about its effectiveness with pois in this way,

820
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: but it was so effective. He has some anecdotes in

821
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: there where he gets them all and then someone will say,

822
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: there's this part of it where an Eskimo tells him

823
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: that he saw it's like seven come across the ice

824
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: and it was like six white wolves and a black wolf.

825
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 1: And a couple days later he goes to his bait pile.

826
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 1: There's six white wolves and a black wolf at the

827
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: bait pile. Just very effective, yes, yeah, And even talked

828
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: about you want to set it on a high knob

829
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: like he's got like he took like a real approach

830
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: to it, you know, like he was good at poison

831
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: and wolves.

832
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 7: He's a good predator, good at poison wolf.

833
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean poisonous. How they wiped the

834
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 4: wolves out of the West. It wasn't so much traps

835
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 4: and guns it was poison. How else are you going

836
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 4: to get every last one? That's it?

837
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, when they started coming down, what eventually what factors

838
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: eventually led them to you know what, what factors led

839
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: them to kind of get a toe hold? Was it

840
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: ESA protection where you were where people were more afraid

841
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 1: to shoot them because they'd get in a bunch of trouble.

842
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I mean Rachel Carson and you know,

843
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 4: the whole wave of ecology and being environmentally a where

844
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 4: it started in the late sixties, and then the ESA

845
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 4: came about, the Act came out seventy three, I think

846
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 4: the final version. Wolves were protected in seventy four, and

847
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 4: there was just a little change of mindset. And the

848
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 4: interesting thing was that they would find the north Fork

849
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 4: of the Flathead, you know, right along glacier. Because back

850
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 4: in the seventies, people like myself and other people, they

851
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 4: just wanted to move to a quiet place where there

852
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 4: were a few people and could enjoy wildlife and have

853
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 4: a simpler life. They weren't laggers or hunters or ranchers. Well,

854
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 4: there were some, there were some, but mostly just sort

855
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 4: of go back to earthers and have a better quality life.

856
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 4: So they didn't mind wolves, and these wolves happened to

857
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 4: find that valley, that corridor of tolerance, and they that's

858
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 4: how they found their way. They didn't work on the

859
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 4: Rocky mount Front, it didn't work in eastern montann it

860
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 4: didn't work.

861
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 1: And I know because of cattle, yes.

862
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 4: And so they found this little zone and they were

863
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 4: able to one came, and then two years later her

864
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 4: male came and they made it. And then more wolves

865
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 4: come down. But it was the tolerance of the local

866
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 4: community that found wolves interesting and novel versus dangerous and threatening.

867
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 1: Where were you? Then?

868
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 4: I came to that valley in nineteen seventy nine, the

869
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 4: first wolf that survived that we got a radio collar

870
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 4: on Kishnina. She arrived in nineteen the fall of seventy eight.

871
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 4: We put a radio collar in April fourth, nineteen seventy nine,

872
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 4: and I trapped there for forever, just trying to catch

873
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 4: more wolves. And there weren't other wolves until about two

874
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 4: years later when this male came down and joined her.

875
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 4: But the meantime, you know, she wanted her out looking

876
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 4: for a female like that poor bird in the wale. Yeah,

877
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 4: looking for a male, right, And eventually found one and

878
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 4: they made it and had the pops and so forth.

879
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 4: So that process just they filtered on their own four

880
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 4: paws without any assistance whatsoever, and no fanfare and no

881
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 4: people from Washington, d C. Carrying crates and they just

882
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 4: they just walk down. And I think that's why they

883
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 4: made it there was just socially acceptable and tolerant because

884
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 4: it wasn't forced on anybody.

885
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: You tell that story in your book. Yeah, how did

886
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 1: you get a collar on that? Or was it collers

887
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 1: at the time or so.

888
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 4: The British Columbia Barry researcher Bruce McLellan's been up doing embarrassed.

889
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 4: He's now retired, but he saw the wolves and wolf

890
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 4: tracks and he contacted Bob Riem at the university and

891
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 4: Bob hired a wolf trapper from Minnesota, Joe Smith. Uncommon name,

892
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 4: but it was Joe Smith. And he came out and

893
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 4: set traps and caught that wolf. And then I came

894
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 4: out in September to replace the crew that was there

895
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 4: and follow her, and I was a trapper and to

896
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 4: try and catch more wolves. And that's kind of how

897
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 4: it started. So she was already collared, although I know

898
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 4: some there had one neighbor who didn't really like wolves

899
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 4: and said that I brought the wolf with me, which

900
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 4: you know, or that a sled dog got loose but slid.

901
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 4: You know, you don't see sled dogs that are three

902
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 4: feet off the shoulder with yellow eyes.

903
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 7: I mean, it's just all the stuff.

904
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 4: But that was how they got there. They walked and

905
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 4: she had to come along ways because they poisoned off

906
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 4: wolves in southern BC and Alberta in the rockies, just

907
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 4: like they did in the States, because they were afraid

908
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 4: of rabies. And they started poisoning wolves in the sixties,

909
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 4: late sixties, and so.

910
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 1: There was a zone they were at it late.

911
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a.

912
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 4: Zone when there weren't wolves along the border. There weren't

913
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 4: wolves in Waterton and vanmf. So this first wolf, Chrishtina,

914
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 4: may have come from as far as Josper, but she

915
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 4: came quite a ways. We didn't have genetic resources back

916
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 4: then to determine where she came from. Of course now

917
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 4: we could if we'd had a sample, but we don't

918
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:47,720
Speaker 4: have a sample.

919
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: Did you when you say you were a wolf trapper,

920
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: then were you trapping problem wolves too?

921
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 4: Yes? No, I don't mind at all when I.

922
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: So or whatever word you want to.

923
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 4: Do well, you'll enjoy the chapter north Holm in the book,

924
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 4: but did you like the North Holme chapter? So I

925
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 4: started working with wolves as a sty eyed, waistlink blonde

926
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 4: haired hippie wolf hugging lady and I.

927
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: Came from Niver want me through that descriptor now story.

928
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 4: I was a bit enamored with wolves. I was a

929
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 4: university college student Dave Meach, who's like the wolf god.

930
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 4: He's still working full time at eighty six studying wolves.

931
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 4: He's published more scientific papers than anybody I know. Anyway,

932
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 4: I got to work on his captive project and then

933
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 4: I got to go to northern Minnesota and work, and

934
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 4: I learned how to catch and collar wolves and track them.

935
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 4: And then I was hired as a year after this,

936
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 4: so I'm pretty early in my career. In nineteen seventy nine,

937
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 4: I was hired as a livestock depredation control trapper and

938
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 4: research trapper. So when there weren't wolves killing livestock, I

939
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 4: went out and form and collared wolves that were just

940
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 4: wild and added to the database for stie Fritz was

941
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 4: post docking PhD stuff. So my job picture you live

942
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 4: in North Holme. Picture, you're a conservative guy from Michigan

943
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 4: with a few cows and you have a few acres

944
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 4: and some young blonde galoy's going to come up and

945
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 4: save you from.

946
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 7: The wolves, right.

947
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 4: I mean it was a hard roto. So that was

948
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 4: my job and I learned so much that summer. It

949
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 4: was so important to my career development and having me

950
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 4: be in the middle finger as you described, of behavior

951
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 4: of public wolves reaction on my part. So there were

952
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 4: truly farmers, they don't call them Rochester farmers that had

953
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 4: chronic depredation problems and there were some farmers that had none.

954
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 4: I worked with both, but getting into that community was

955
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 4: real challenging, and I could tell stories forever about that.

956
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: How would you generally handle those situations?

957
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 4: Okay, example, I try to use there's no point in

958
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 4: feeding them a lot of scientific data. They don't care.

959
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 4: You just have to work with them and develop a relationship.

960
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 4: I use my sense of humor. There was like, for example,

961
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 4: I was working in there and I kind of stayed

962
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 4: on my own and I tried to stay away from people,

963
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 4: just do my job because I was young in inexperience

964
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 4: and I kind of didn't want them to know that.

965
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 10: Right.

966
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 4: Well, one day I'm at the gas station that a

967
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 4: guy pumping gas. They've actually pumped your gas back. Then says,

968
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 4: you know, you got to pick up the local paper

969
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 4: and see what Bing wrote about you. I said, well,

970
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 4: who's Bing girl. He's what he's like close to God.

971
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 4: He writes our local news column and the weekly paper,

972
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 4: and he knows all the goings on. So I go

973
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 4: buy the paper and I open it up and there's

974
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 4: being being Elhard's column and he talks about who visited

975
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 4: who and what they were having the church bazaar at

976
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 4: and then he says, and by the way, we have

977
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 4: a new community member. There's an attractive, young blonde lady

978
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 4: wolf Trapper. And next exact quote and next to his words,

979
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 4: he had a photograph of a six foot tall cardboard

980
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 4: cut out wolf and he's got his arm around it

981
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 4: and is sitting outside at his house and he says,

982
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 4: Lady wolf Trapper, I have a problem. Wolf's like, what

983
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 4: do you do?

984
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 8: Right?

985
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 4: I'm twenty four years old. I'm like, oh my God,

986
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 4: and knowing that how I deal with this guy is

987
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,479
Speaker 4: going to make or break my summer. So I thought

988
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 4: about it really hard. I went home. I mate took

989
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 4: out a bunch of cardboard and tools, and I built

990
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 4: a perfect replica of a nun fourteen new house wolf trap,

991
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 4: complete with double long springs made out of cardboard and

992
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 4: a fake chain made like your kids make the Christmas

993
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 4: loop chains. And I wrapped it in black electric tape

994
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 4: so it looked like it had been dyed black like

995
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 4: a real trap. And I got a jar of my

996
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,800
Speaker 4: stinkiest wolf bait and I crammed it full of cardboard.

997
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 4: I drive to his house the next day and I

998
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 4: pulled up in the government truck and he comes out

999
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,240
Speaker 4: in his porch and he kind of stands there it smirks,

1000
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 4: and he crosses his arm and says, well, you must

1001
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 4: be the lady wolf trapper. And I said, yes, sir,

1002
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 4: I am. Please meet you. I'm Diane Boyd. And he says,

1003
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,240
Speaker 4: say you get to take care of my problem wolf.

1004
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 4: I said, I am. And I walk around the back

1005
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 4: of my truck and I pull out this cardboard trap

1006
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 4: and the corrugated cardboard stinky goo. And I walk over

1007
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 4: and I say, so this this trap, in this bait,

1008
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 4: will I guarantee we will catch yours particular subspecies of

1009
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 4: wolf that's causing you your problem. And I reach out

1010
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 4: with it like this, and he stands there and he

1011
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 4: looks at me like for Mediani five feet away, and

1012
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 4: he just kind of stands there, and then finally he breaks.

1013
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 4: Soon his granny comes over and he puts his hand

1014
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 4: on my shoulder, says, come on in. The wife just

1015
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 4: took a pie out of the oven, and I sat

1016
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 4: there and had blueberry pie with him and tea and coffee,

1017
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 4: and we chatted quite a bit. And the next week

1018
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 4: in his column put a photograph of my trap and

1019
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 4: he said, the lady Trapper come paid me a visit,

1020
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 4: and my problems taken care of. And you know what,

1021
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 4: he actually said some nice things about me in his column.

1022
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 4: With the rest of the summer, when I'd catch a wolf,

1023
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 4: he'd put it in the column. And so it's like,

1024
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 4: that's how I work in the community. You can't fight it.

1025
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 4: Just put your head down, think hard, and move forward

1026
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 4: and try and do something a little creative. Just you asked.

1027
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 4: That's just one of the stories.

1028
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's good career advice for everybody.

1029
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 4: Just be a pain in the neck.

1030
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,399
Speaker 1: When that was happening and the wolves were coming down,

1031
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that scenario that you said. You know,

1032
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: we might have eventually landed where we landed. There's no

1033
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 1: way it would have been the same timeline.

1034
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 4: Right, Probably not, But you know, once so once we

1035
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 4: had our first wolf in seventy nine. By nineteen ninety

1036
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 4: five without any reintroductions, just simply not trapping, poisoning and

1037
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 4: shooting them. By nineteen ninety five, just before the post

1038
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 4: wolves in the Yellowstone in central Idol, we had seventy

1039
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 4: seventy five wolves in eight packs with nobody reintroducing them.

1040
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 4: Doc northwest Montana Marion nine mile callous spell all through

1041
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 4: northwestern and western Montana. The Marian wolves became famous because

1042
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 4: they started killing livestock in the It was about late

1043
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 4: late eighties, so they were there and because nobody forced

1044
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 4: them out, they were just kind of existing. In those

1045
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 4: wolves that cause problems, you know, shoot shovels shot up,

1046
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 4: and the other ones kind of left to be. So

1047
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 4: in the nineties there were wolves dispersing.

1048
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,240
Speaker 1: One of my telling those numbers again, so the number

1049
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: of wolves, yeah, pre reintroduction.

1050
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 4: So by nineteen ninety five there were about seventy to

1051
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,359
Speaker 4: seventy five wolves in Montana in eight packs. And if

1052
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:50,280
Speaker 4: you go back to the old US fish and Wilife

1053
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 4: Service website. You can find the data there. It's published.

1054
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 4: I'm not making this up. I mean I don't. I

1055
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 4: only talk truth and my book is Stories of Truth.

1056
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 4: So they were there. They had collars on. Sometimes this

1057
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,240
Speaker 4: one pack was giving a guy at livestock producer problems,

1058
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 4: but mostly they were just making a living. There were

1059
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 4: wolves on the Rocky Mountain front. They were moving down

1060
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 4: and they were as far as Missoula, the Nine Mile Wolves,

1061
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 4: I'm sure you heard of them. So the wolves before

1062
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 4: they were introduced them to Yellowstone, there were two wolves

1063
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 4: that had gotten there already pre nineteen ninety five. One

1064
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 4: was shot just south of Fox.

1065
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: Creek fire you had gotten a Yellowstone.

1066
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and one was filmed, yes, So that was like

1067
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety one ninety two. So it's just like Colorado.

1068
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 4: Those wolves came from Wyoming and Colorado now and they

1069
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 4: found their way down and they began reproducing, and then

1070
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 4: the reintroduction happed on top of it, which is what

1071
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 4: happened with Wyoming. With a Yellowstone in central Idahole. So

1072
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 4: the wolves were starting to get down and the reintroduction

1073
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 4: happened on top of them. But the two that were

1074
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 4: seeing didn't survive long enough to reproduce. They weren't viable,

1075
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 4: they didn't have packs. They were just sort of passing through,

1076
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 4: just like we saw in Montana a lot prior to

1077
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 4: Kishnina and the successful breeding.

1078
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: Uh, it's gonna sound like a dumb question because I

1079
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 1: know it's probably not too challenging, but uh, when they

1080
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: kill Kyle's what when they kill Kyle's how do they

1081
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: generally approach it?

1082
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 4: You mean domestic cattle, not Kyle.

1083
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, kill cattle.

1084
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 4: It depends on how many wolves are, depends on the

1085
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 4: experience of the wolves. But in every kill is different.

1086
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 4: I just remember in Minnesota I had to go skin

1087
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 4: a lot of really disgusting, maggotty carcasses of cows and haffers.

1088
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 4: If it's a calf, they basically eat at all, so

1089
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 4: there's not much to fined. You might find an ear

1090
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 4: tag in a pile of scat or something, it's hard

1091
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 4: to prove they were there. But the big cole, you

1092
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 4: find bites. They're pretty effective predators. It again, the hind,

1093
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 4: the belly, the neck. Sometimes they're not. They're not efficient

1094
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 4: killers like lions. I mean lions live alone because they

1095
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 4: can kill an Alkalholm. A wolf pack needs other members

1096
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 4: because they don't have fit sabers on four pods to

1097
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 4: help them hold and contain their prey. They just have teeth.

1098
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 5: Do they key in on calving season for cattle?

1099
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 4: I have always wondered why they don't more? I mean

1100
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 4: they can, yeah, because.

1101
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 5: It seemed like those wolves that were reintroduced in Colorado. Yeah,

1102
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 5: just this past Calvia, they really that's when they really

1103
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 5: started to get in some trouble.

1104
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 4: Yes, and those wolves before they were transplanted, they were

1105
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 4: livestock killers. So yeah, if there's calves around and cattle wolves,

1106
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 4: you will know there are wolves there. If you know,

1107
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 4: if you're gonna have problems, you have them. But not

1108
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 4: every wolf is a livestock killer. And sometimes they might

1109
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 4: kill a calf or two and never have a problem.

1110
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 4: Sometimes they might come in and kill repeatedly until you

1111
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 4: remove the wolves. It really depends on the situation, and

1112
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 4: it kind of depends on how their ranchers managing their

1113
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 4: livestock herd. Do they ever heard or out there? Do

1114
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 4: they have guard dogs? Are they turned out in a

1115
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 4: national forest and a grazing lease in May and then

1116
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 4: they're not picked up till October nobody looks at them.

1117
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, it really depends on the management

1118
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 4: of the stock a lot.

1119
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: Uh. You just said something that I can't remember with

1120
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: the hell you're talking about, but it caught my attention. Oh,

1121
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: I know, can can one I guess what I was

1122
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: kind of getting at. Can one do it effectively?

1123
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 4: Depends and if you're talking or can they kill it

1124
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 4: one adult? Coll effect?

1125
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 1: Can one wolf kill one adult kyle? Do you ever see?

1126
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 4: That'd be tough. The kyle would probably have to have

1127
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 4: something wrong with it, but it's usually more than one.

1128
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: And then you just get a hold of it and

1129
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: hang on to it.

1130
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 4: Basically.

1131
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1132
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, When did.

1133
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: You say that Colorado put in known livestock killers. Yeah,

1134
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: explain what that means. And if that's like you're not

1135
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: in your head that is that behavior? Do you feel

1136
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: like it's hard to unlearn that?

1137
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 4: What I would say is, if I wanted to reintroduce

1138
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 4: wolves with minimal problems, I would see wolves that have

1139
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 4: only had wild meat. It's like the wolves that were

1140
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 4: introduced to Yellowstone and Central Idaho were taken from Canada

1141
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 4: where they had never been exposed to livestock, but they

1142
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 4: had never been exposed to buffalo either. I mean, they're

1143
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 4: pretty good at killing bison now they had to learn

1144
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 4: it because they're very formidable. I wouldn't want to try

1145
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 4: and kill a bison with my teeth. But so I

1146
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 4: think I don't know all the background and why they

1147
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 4: chose those wolves. They probably had a shortage supplies and

1148
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 4: a shortage of time to get the job done, and

1149
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 4: they had this opportunity to get those wolves. They weren't

1150
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 4: all livestock killers, but the ones that are causing the

1151
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 4: problem now had a history before they were put there.

1152
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 1: What is the I'm a little I haven't followed it

1153
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 1: as closely. What is going on with the ones they

1154
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 1: put in Colorado? Like, how has that gone? How many

1155
01:01:58,680 --> 01:01:59,439
Speaker 1: and what are they doing?

1156
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 4: Oh boy, it's a big exact numbers. I couldn't tell you.

1157
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 4: I'm not that involved. But there's a male I forgot

1158
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 4: his number. They put him in and he's paired with

1159
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 4: a female. They had at least one pup, and I

1160
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 4: saw on my news fees this morning they've seen three,

1161
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 4: now three pups in this particular pack, but they had

1162
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 4: only documented one up until yesterday or whatever. And they

1163
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 4: were put in at the end of the year, like

1164
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 4: December or so, and they started killing livestock in April.

1165
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 4: I believe it was when the pups were born. And

1166
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 4: they're now debating how are they going to manage the situation.

1167
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 4: They no matter what CPW does, they aren't be a happy,

1168
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 4: winning outcome, because if they remove all the wolves and

1169
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 4: kill them all, you're gonna have the wolf protectionists screaming

1170
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 4: at him. If they don't do anything, they're gonna have

1171
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 4: the livestock growers scream at him if they take I

1172
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 4: actually had this conversation with the journalist yesterday. He says, well,

1173
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 4: how about if we just take one, say we know

1174
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 4: the male has been a livestock killer, can the female

1175
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 4: survive long and protect and feed those pups without help?

1176
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 4: And I said, well, I can give you two examples.

1177
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 4: In nineteen eighty two, when Kishnina had her first litter

1178
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 4: of pups in the Flathead in fifty years, her mate

1179
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 4: was killed in June and those pups were seven eight

1180
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 4: weeks old, and he was killed accidentally by the Grizzly

1181
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 4: bear trap people. She was caught in a Grizzly bersonaire

1182
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 4: and he subsequently died accidental death and still just as

1183
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 4: dead though, so the female had Yeah, so doesn't him.

1184
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 4: It's kind of like got your dog right. Anyway, the

1185
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 4: female had seven pups to deal with, and he raised kids,

1186
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 4: and you raised dogs. You know how much food they

1187
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 4: start to consume as they become teenagers. Oh my god,

1188
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 4: talk about a full time job trying to feed seven

1189
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 4: growing pups that are fifty sixty pounds by fall, and

1190
01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 4: I thought they're not can never make it. They all

1191
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 4: made it through winter. We were seeing tracks of eight

1192
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 4: wolves in the snow. So there's one example. The other

1193
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 4: example was so that was keeping the female remaining. And

1194
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 4: then in the nine Mile in the early recolonization, those

1195
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 4: wolves got to nine Mile, Montana on their own near Missoula.

1196
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 4: The male and female had pups. The mother was poached

1197
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 4: over Memorial Day, which is pretty early. So those little

1198
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 4: guys were maybe four maybe five weeks old. They were

1199
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,440
Speaker 4: probably still drinking milk from mom, but they already had

1200
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 4: getting regurgitated food certainly, so it only had the male

1201
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 4: to raise the whole litter of pops. And Mike and

1202
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 4: Mannis who was studying him at that time, and Barto,

1203
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 4: Gary University, do you know, bloody bart Barto Gary. He's

1204
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:45,479
Speaker 4: passed now, but he was the most vary, the most

1205
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 4: voracious hunter right now.

1206
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 7: We loved him. He's a university exactly.

1207
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 4: We call him Bloody Bart.

1208
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 7: I can tell you stories.

1209
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 4: He whatever he shot, he would kill. So he had

1210
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 4: the had permission to go shoot deer or pick up

1211
01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 4: roadkill to supplemently feed those pups because they were fully

1212
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 4: in danger. This would be like nineteen eighty eight or

1213
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 4: so to do anything fishing. Walley Service was mandated under

1214
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 4: the essay to do what they could to keep them

1215
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 4: alive as an endangered species. So they got these permits

1216
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 4: to go do that. That male raise those pups without

1217
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 4: a female, and they all survived. So yes, the wolves

1218
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 4: are incredibly resilient. So then this journalist asked me yesterday,

1219
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 4: so should they take the male or the female? I'm like,

1220
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 4: oh my god, you're asking me a Sophie's choice question.

1221
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 7: I can't tell you.

1222
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 4: And you know, we talked about it at length. And

1223
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 4: starting with two wolves adults that have both been killing livestock,

1224
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 4: and then you're going to take one wolf away to

1225
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 4: try and hopefully minimize it, you might be causing more

1226
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 4: of a problem because the remaining parent now has the

1227
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 4: burden solely of feeding hungry pops, and maybe it's going

1228
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 4: to kill more livestock because of that.

1229
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 5: And those pups are going to learn to do it too.

1230
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is the problem. So it's I just think

1231
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:04,919
Speaker 4: maybe thinking ahead a little bit ahead of time may

1232
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 4: have headed this problem off. But it's amazing to me

1233
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 4: that all those wolves they put out, they only had

1234
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 4: one reproducing pack. You think they would have had more.

1235
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 4: But this is a problem.

1236
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:15,439
Speaker 1: How many did they put down?

1237
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 5: Ten total? I think?

1238
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: And then are all ten still alive?

1239
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 5: One of them got killed by a mountain lion, which

1240
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 5: is kind of ironic. It's usually the.

1241
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 1: Other way around.

1242
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, but I'm not there may have been another

1243
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 5: one that died somehow.

1244
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: The mountain lion got one. I think I knew that.

1245
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 5: Maybe I forgot it, but I think most of them

1246
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:34,720
Speaker 5: are still.

1247
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: There, and they formed one reproducing pack.

1248
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's surprising to me because they did it before

1249
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 4: breeding season and then they'll be reintroducing more wolves. And

1250
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 4: of course you heard Washington State is now refusing to

1251
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 4: give them more wolves. It's becoming this huge political.

1252
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 1: But they got I thought they got him from the

1253
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 1: nets person there.

1254
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 5: They got him from Oregon originally and one of the

1255
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 5: well not the state, might have been the nests person

1256
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 5: that originally said yes, we'll contribute to but that just

1257
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 5: got They just said we're not doing it right.

1258
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 4: One they had from Oregon, I think state in the state,

1259
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 4: but I wasn't the new ones. Weren't they going to

1260
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 4: get the next batch from Washington? Wasn't it was?

1261
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:18,200
Speaker 5: I think it was it was a tribe where that

1262
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:20,960
Speaker 5: whoever it was, just said Nope, we're out.

1263
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: We're not doing What is the argument to not let

1264
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: them have them?

1265
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 4: Politics?

1266
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure explain the politics. You know it's politics, but

1267
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 1: you don't know what.

1268
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 2: She doesn't study politics.

1269
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 4: So I'm just saying every decision made about wolves is

1270
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 4: based on politics. It's not based on biology.

1271
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 1: So why of course, because biology is largely politics. When

1272
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 1: people say like I don't want to be political or everything's.

1273
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 4: Political, everything is political.

1274
01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 1: There's nothing that's not political, right, I mean every decision

1275
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 1: is political. I know, creating national Force was intensely political. Yeah, Like,

1276
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 1: what's not political? I mean most actions are taken by

1277
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: elected representatives in this country or appointed appointed by elected.

1278
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 4: Everything is I know, we don't have to go there.

1279
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 1: No I mean, but it's like I don't like earlier,

1280
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 1: I had a headache and I took two ivy profen

1281
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 1: that are like two hundred and fifty milligram ibuprofene. The

1282
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 1: fact that you can go by two hundred fifty gram

1283
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: milligram ivy profen is I don't know the history on it.

1284
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 1: That's probably political, Oh, no, doubt.

1285
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:38,680
Speaker 4: So I would guess because there's I would guess that

1286
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 4: because the Colorado reintroduction has had a lot of problems.

1287
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 1: The Native Americans say yeah, I'm sorry, and.

1288
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 4: The Native Americans are probably saying, you know, we just

1289
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 4: don't want to deal with it. So I wrote A

1290
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:52,760
Speaker 4: I was telling you honest. I wrote A was asked

1291
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 4: to write a document for the National Walley Federation about

1292
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:00,120
Speaker 4: Wolve's returning to Colorado. And it's basically called less and

1293
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 4: is learned from everywhere else for the Colorado can use

1294
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 4: as a base as a template for reintroductions, and sixty

1295
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 4: pages long. It's on It's on the Colorado Parks and

1296
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:11,719
Speaker 4: Wildlife website.

1297
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 1: Is that in a in your book?

1298
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 4: No, No, it's not.

1299
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 1: It's stabled into the end of your book.

1300
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 4: No.

1301
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 6: Maybe you can read the audio version of that when.

1302
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 4: God anyway, it laid out all of the problems that

1303
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 4: challenges people have had elsewhere where the wolves are coming

1304
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 4: back on their own or reintroduced, How agencies federal and

1305
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 4: state dealt with them, how local communities dealt with them,

1306
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 4: how conservation groups and and uh a DC or animal

1307
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:44,799
Speaker 4: it's no longer that. Now it's wildlife services work together

1308
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 4: sometimes or not. Just all these things. There's a template.

1309
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 4: There's nothing that needs to be reinvented about wolves being

1310
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:53,599
Speaker 4: on the landscape. It's it's old hat.

1311
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 5: So this is pretty interesting. The Colorado things, Yeah, the

1312
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 5: they were going to get them from the Colville Nation

1313
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 5: fifteen of the moment, that's Washington, Washington. The Colville Nation

1314
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,280
Speaker 5: said no because Colorado Parks and Wildlife wouldn't agree to

1315
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:14,760
Speaker 5: give the Southern You Tribe like management over wolves on

1316
01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 5: the Southern You tribes.

1317
01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:21,320
Speaker 1: Oh, political out of tribal solid area.

1318
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:24,520
Speaker 4: That that's an interesting point. Thank you for clear that clarification.

1319
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:26,439
Speaker 4: I knew it had something to do with people, and

1320
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 4: I knew it wasn't.

1321
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet it had something to do always. I

1322
01:10:34,200 --> 01:10:35,680
Speaker 1: want to get back into some of this. I want

1323
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 1: to ask you another question that that Karin highlighted, it's

1324
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 1: a good one. Uh, you're familiar with the like with

1325
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 1: grizzly bears, you're from with the distinct population segments. Okay,

1326
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 1: that there's so they it's kind of like looking at

1327
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 1: part of this whole idea is with grizzly bears is

1328
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 1: being like, Okay, when we're talking about grizzly bears being

1329
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:02,559
Speaker 1: on the landscape, where could they actually be? Like what

1330
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 1: areas could actually support bears? Right?

1331
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:06,680
Speaker 4: I mean ecologically?

1332
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:08,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean there's a handful of everythings. But

1333
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:10,200
Speaker 1: I was gonna bring up that there's a there's a

1334
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 1: distinct population segment that doesn't have bears, but it could

1335
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:16,280
Speaker 1: where it's.

1336
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 4: The bitter Well they've taken getting there.

1337
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:21,599
Speaker 7: Yeah, they're getting there.

1338
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 1: And there was at a time there's talk of putting

1339
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:33,360
Speaker 1: them there. Yes, Okay, so if you were gonna maybe

1340
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:34,640
Speaker 1: I set that up the wrong way. Let me just

1341
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 1: let me skip all that crap about the DPS. Okay,

1342
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 1: if if you were going to make a map, if

1343
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:45,360
Speaker 1: you were going to make a map of the United States,

1344
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 1: all of it, Okay, and and I said, uh, Diane,

1345
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:57,320
Speaker 1: go in and and and color in the areas where

1346
01:11:57,400 --> 01:12:04,520
Speaker 1: you think there's a chance of having viable wolf populations,

1347
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: meaning there's enough habitat, enough wild food, low enough chance

1348
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 1: of intense friction. Right, how would you start to color

1349
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 1: that map?

1350
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 4: Well, the last qualifier just put on is the deciding

1351
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 4: factor for everything. I mean there's oh god, yeah, I

1352
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 4: mean so historically wolves had the widest distribution of any

1353
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:31,639
Speaker 4: mammal in the world except for humans. I mean they

1354
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:34,880
Speaker 4: live from the Arctic to the desert. They live in

1355
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:39,680
Speaker 4: every biome, every habitat. They can eat anything their habitat. Journalists,

1356
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 4: they're food generalists. They're like a you know, one hundred

1357
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 4: pound kayah that way. So they can live anywhere, I

1358
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:48,799
Speaker 4: mean they did. I mean they covered the entire United States,

1359
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,840
Speaker 4: so where could they live. They would live anywhere where

1360
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 4: us humans will tolerate them. And they're trying to get back.

1361
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:57,640
Speaker 4: I mean wolves are showing up in Illinois and Missouri

1362
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:01,800
Speaker 4: and you know they just get shot, and but they

1363
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 4: would be there. I mean they would. They would find

1364
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 4: a way to live in Central Park if we didn't

1365
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 4: kill them. They'd be eating poodles and whatever out there.

1366
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 4: But there's not who knows, so squirrels RFK.

1367
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 1: You have to lay it dead one of those, yeah,

1368
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 1: on the trail.

1369
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 4: So that's a hard question because they would live everywhere,

1370
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:25,400
Speaker 4: So we don't have to color in a map because

1371
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 4: they just color and everything.

1372
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I get to that last qualifier.

1373
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, then then you have to constrict it. So the

1374
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:35,720
Speaker 4: wolves has shown us now in Montana. Anyway, Let's pick

1375
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 4: Montana because they're all sitting here and thinking about Montana.

1376
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 4: So wolves basically live in the western one third or

1377
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:45,400
Speaker 4: one quarter, and they've been doing this for decades now

1378
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:48,759
Speaker 4: because that's where we tolerate them. But they keep showing

1379
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:52,400
Speaker 4: up at Miles City and I Galaca and they get

1380
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:56,440
Speaker 4: shot and they don't make it. That's not an ecological

1381
01:13:56,479 --> 01:14:00,439
Speaker 4: issue at all. They would live there. They did, so

1382
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1383
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:05,760
Speaker 1: Well they did under different circumstances. Okay, let me let

1384
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 1: me requalify. Okay, let me requalify, because it's going to

1385
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 1: throw out. Did you say Cleveland earlier? Did I make

1386
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 1: that up?

1387
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 6: I didn't hear Cleveland.

1388
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 1: You said something Missouri, she said, Let me let me read.

1389
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:22,200
Speaker 1: Let me read you my qualification and not live on that.

1390
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:27,840
Speaker 1: Somehow we make this deal. Humans can't kill them, but

1391
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:32,800
Speaker 1: they can't eat any human generated food sources. Cool, now.

1392
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:40,479
Speaker 4: Hit me, there would be nowhere. No, I'm serious, because

1393
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 4: the only pack that I'm aware in Montana that has

1394
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 4: never come into contact with livestock is the one up

1395
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 4: in northwest corner Glacia National Park. And there is livestock

1396
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:56,320
Speaker 4: in his southern portion of the Norfolk or there was

1397
01:14:56,439 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 4: Ladenburg sold this stuff. But other than that, the can

1398
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 4: always come into contact with people who are raising sled dugs,

1399
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:07,720
Speaker 4: people of lama farms, people of livestock, chickens, whatever. Just

1400
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:10,280
Speaker 4: because we've taken over all the while life.

1401
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:12,759
Speaker 5: Happened at could they make a go of it without

1402
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 5: causing too much trouble? And like Maine New Hamps, like

1403
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:17,520
Speaker 5: the Upper.

1404
01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:19,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not going to give up on this map idea.

1405
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 2: I can.

1406
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 5: It seems like main they could. There's certainly plenty of white.

1407
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 4: Tails there, right, they'd have to get there.

1408
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, stop being so obstructionist. Somebody you understand what

1409
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:37,160
Speaker 1: I'm trying to ask.

1410
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:39,200
Speaker 4: No, I don't. Actually, I'm not.

1411
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:44,200
Speaker 5: Steve coming semi full of wolves loose and Maine where

1412
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:44,679
Speaker 5: can moose?

1413
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:47,720
Speaker 1: Okay, let me let me say this. Okay, I'm not

1414
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 1: trying to I'm trying to color in the country of

1415
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:53,760
Speaker 1: where however you want to put it? Man, where could

1416
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:57,800
Speaker 1: you visualize? Where do you think when the dust is

1417
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:01,559
Speaker 1: settled in a hundred years, And don't don't hit me

1418
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 1: with like, well, you know, is there a zombie apocalypse

1419
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 1: or in a hundred years? Where are wolves?

1420
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 4: If they lived where there weren't human conflicts?

1421
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 1: No, no, no, forget all those, OK, meaning new direction? Yeah,

1422
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 1: meaning it appears that it wound up being that northwest

1423
01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:24,559
Speaker 1: Montana was a suitable place for wolves.

1424
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:25,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is right.

1425
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 1: It wound up being that the northern Great Lakes, Yeah,

1426
01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:33,400
Speaker 1: the northern third of Minnesota, the northern third of Wisconsin,

1427
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:37,040
Speaker 1: the northern third of Michigan wound up being like a

1428
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:39,880
Speaker 1: pretty good like it is from the wolves perspective, a

1429
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:40,799
Speaker 1: good place for wolves.

1430
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1431
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 1: What are the chunks that are probably like that that

1432
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:48,280
Speaker 1: don't yet but could.

1433
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 4: It's it's hard to answer because I'm not Anvoidum. I'm

1434
01:16:53,120 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 4: just saying they go everywhere, and they get shot, they

1435
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 4: go to eastern Montana, So I would color in eastern Montana.

1436
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:01,560
Speaker 4: They don't make one hundred years from out, They're not

1437
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 4: going to make it either.

1438
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:03,760
Speaker 7: So I met him.

1439
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 4: I'm at a lost kind. I'm not trying to avoid.

1440
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 4: I'm at a loss how to answer. They would live

1441
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 4: in Illinois, they would live in Missouri because there's plenty

1442
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:14,400
Speaker 4: of places where there's enough habitat for them. They just

1443
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:18,360
Speaker 4: for habitat all. They needed someplace where they find large hooftungulates,

1444
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:21,439
Speaker 4: they don't get shot by people, and they have a

1445
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,639
Speaker 4: secure place to raise pups. There's plenty of places throughout

1446
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:25,640
Speaker 4: the country like that.

1447
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:30,240
Speaker 5: Do you think we've reached, like we've filled in the

1448
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:33,679
Speaker 5: areas that people well, that people are going to tolerate,

1449
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:36,439
Speaker 5: Like they're where they are now, and they're probably not

1450
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:37,959
Speaker 5: going to be in a lot of new places.

1451
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 1: I disagree.

1452
01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:44,439
Speaker 5: No, I'm asking like, like will there like are they

1453
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:46,880
Speaker 5: where they are now? And that's probably all the space.

1454
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:50,679
Speaker 4: I think there would be more wolves expanding across Montana, certainly.

1455
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 4: I mean they're showing up in the Snowy's and they're

1456
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 4: showing up all over and if they can get a

1457
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:57,599
Speaker 4: foothold and have a pack, then at some point, if

1458
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:00,599
Speaker 4: you're hunting and trapping them, there always be a few remaining.

1459
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 4: But this stronghold is the western portion because it's mountainous,

1460
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:06,840
Speaker 4: because they're not seen because there's less road access, because

1461
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 4: there's the Bob, the Glacier Park, to scapegoat wilderness. Those

1462
01:18:10,479 --> 01:18:13,439
Speaker 4: are all those things that these wolves need to live.

1463
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:16,920
Speaker 4: I don't see that. There's a lot of places that

1464
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:19,720
Speaker 4: are very wild across the eastern Montana bird hunt, an

1465
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 4: lo hunt. But there's always a conflict there. There just

1466
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:28,000
Speaker 4: always is with livestock, with hunters, with whatever goes on.

1467
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 4: And I'd love to hear what you think. So in

1468
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:32,559
Speaker 4: terms of mapping, right now, wolves are all the way

1469
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:34,840
Speaker 4: through Minnesota. You got wolves around the Twin Cities. Now

1470
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:37,200
Speaker 4: you don't know maybe you don't know that, but they're

1471
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 4: filling into southern Wisconsin. They are moving south. It's a

1472
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:43,679
Speaker 4: really slow wave. Nobody's reintroducing them. I got to point

1473
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 4: that out. It's on their own and they have been

1474
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 4: making it to the other states but get killed. So

1475
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 4: what because I don't kind of totally maybe get your question,

1476
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:55,880
Speaker 4: or maybe I'm less optimistic than you, where do you

1477
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 4: see them going where they aren't? Oh, Utah would be

1478
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:00,840
Speaker 4: a place about it.

1479
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:02,880
Speaker 1: It's funny you say that. It's funny you say Utah

1480
01:19:02,960 --> 01:19:06,800
Speaker 1: because I was at an event. I was at an

1481
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:10,519
Speaker 1: event this winter and Utah's governor spoke at the event,

1482
01:19:11,160 --> 01:19:15,640
Speaker 1: and Utah's governor made a pledge to the audience that

1483
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:20,320
Speaker 1: there would be no wolves in Utah. And I remember thinking,

1484
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:21,760
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's your call.

1485
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:28,080
Speaker 6: What he mean that he means.

1486
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:34,640
Speaker 1: He was saying and addressing the audience, which was an

1487
01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:39,439
Speaker 1: audience of of uh people that do a lot of

1488
01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:43,840
Speaker 1: work for big game habitat improvement, right, big horns, sheet

1489
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:46,679
Speaker 1: mule deer or whatever, putting it, putting ungulates on the ground,

1490
01:19:47,080 --> 01:19:49,960
Speaker 1: putting game animals on the ground. He made a pledge

1491
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:51,720
Speaker 1: that there will be no wolves in Utah, and I

1492
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:52,600
Speaker 1: remember thinking.

1493
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:54,160
Speaker 8: Like, don't worry hunters.

1494
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:56,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I remember thinking, well, the way it sits

1495
01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:00,560
Speaker 1: now with federal protection, that's not really your call. And

1496
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what. I appreciate the sentiment, but I

1497
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 1: don't know what tools you have at your disposal.

1498
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:08,879
Speaker 4: So I get that what you're saying, but that agrees

1499
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:12,559
Speaker 4: with what I say, because wolves have made it to Utah.

1500
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:15,200
Speaker 4: And we had a wolf go from Yellowstone, go all

1501
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:18,160
Speaker 4: the way to the Grand Canyon and started on its

1502
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 4: way back, a colored wolf from Wyoming from Yellowstone and

1503
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:23,639
Speaker 4: they got shot on the way home. They get shot.

1504
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:26,360
Speaker 4: I don't know how to better tell you, but they

1505
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:27,879
Speaker 4: just get So maybe.

1506
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:30,200
Speaker 1: He said that he was just saying if they come,

1507
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:32,280
Speaker 1: we can. Wasn't that he's going to do something, that's

1508
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:34,480
Speaker 1: just someone's going to shoot.

1509
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 7: But I think that's what he's writing.

1510
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, people will kill them.

1511
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:40,760
Speaker 6: I think what you're saying too, though, is that I

1512
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:44,200
Speaker 6: mean there are areas of the country that have other

1513
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 6: than Northwest Montana, that have sufficient habitat security, like you

1514
01:20:50,160 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 6: in a hundred years, you know, I would imagine all

1515
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:55,160
Speaker 6: the way down the spine of.

1516
01:20:55,160 --> 01:20:56,160
Speaker 1: The Rockies right.

1517
01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:02,760
Speaker 6: Over maybe the Cascades down I don't know that they

1518
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:05,200
Speaker 6: go down the Sierras, you know, like they have Like

1519
01:21:05,280 --> 01:21:05,680
Speaker 6: that's what.

1520
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:09,519
Speaker 2: I question is California. Yeah, California would be maybe a

1521
01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:15,439
Speaker 2: little more tolerant. They have they have six packs or something.

1522
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:18,360
Speaker 1: And if I asked you my question twenty years ago

1523
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 1: that you're trying to like dodge and obfuscate, I'm not

1524
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:23,280
Speaker 1: if I had asked that question twenty years ago, would

1525
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:25,320
Speaker 1: you have said, would you have said Lake Tahoe.

1526
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:29,200
Speaker 4: I think wolves have a good chance of being in

1527
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 4: Utah except people kill them. So I don't know if

1528
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:35,679
Speaker 4: that's a yes or no, that's a yes, okay, And

1529
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:38,720
Speaker 4: I'm really trying to it's not I'm not squirming, I'm

1530
01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:42,120
Speaker 4: not uncomfortable. I'm just saying I have lived with wolf

1531
01:21:42,240 --> 01:21:44,600
Speaker 4: killing for so long, and where they're going to be

1532
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 4: tolerated is where they're at. And wolves getting in California's great,

1533
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:51,639
Speaker 4: but they're going to start killing people's pets and they're

1534
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 4: going to be not tolerated as well.

1535
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:57,160
Speaker 5: What about like the wolves? If the Colorado plan goes,

1536
01:21:57,280 --> 01:21:59,960
Speaker 5: is they some people would like it to go. They're

1537
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:04,640
Speaker 5: they're gonna push into New Mexico, Arizonah. Yeah, So my

1538
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:07,280
Speaker 5: question is what happens to those Mexican wolves then?

1539
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:10,040
Speaker 4: So I love this question and half a finger and

1540
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:11,040
Speaker 4: I will disagree on this.

1541
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:13,439
Speaker 1: So okay, can you guys, can one of you make

1542
01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:15,240
Speaker 1: the question really clear for people? Because I think a

1543
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:16,720
Speaker 1: lot of people aren't to understand.

1544
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:18,120
Speaker 5: What they're I think she's probably the better.

1545
01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:20,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you mind, like why we're even asking that?

1546
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:21,719
Speaker 1: Like what we're talking about.

1547
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:24,160
Speaker 4: As I explained about the Mexican wolves there, they are

1548
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:27,439
Speaker 4: a unique subspecies. It's the only population really that's got

1549
01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 4: its separate subspecies classification for protection other than the red wolves,

1550
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:34,120
Speaker 4: which are a different animal. So they come from a

1551
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:38,960
Speaker 4: very unique gene pool of seven founding members. They're trying

1552
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:41,519
Speaker 4: to protect that gene pool. So if you read I

1553
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:44,559
Speaker 4: mean every time a Mexican wolf starts to go north,

1554
01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:47,720
Speaker 4: it disperses like a wolf is gonna do. They live

1555
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:50,160
Speaker 4: by their feet and they go north, they go and

1556
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:52,479
Speaker 4: catch them and bring them back. They don't allow them.

1557
01:22:53,080 --> 01:22:56,600
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they don't allow them to travel out of

1558
01:22:56,640 --> 01:23:00,479
Speaker 4: the recovery area. What you could google the on, but

1559
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:04,000
Speaker 4: they don't allow it because that if.

1560
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:06,639
Speaker 1: One of the Mexican wolves out of Mexican Wolf area,

1561
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:07,839
Speaker 1: they fetch it and bring it home.

1562
01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:12,479
Speaker 4: Yes, it's a defined zone and so and so because

1563
01:23:13,080 --> 01:23:15,360
Speaker 4: number one, that was the promise early on with the plan.

1564
01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:18,640
Speaker 4: But they've expanded the Mexican Wolf Recovery area slightly, but

1565
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:22,280
Speaker 4: they don't want those wolves to mix with other gene pools.

1566
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:26,640
Speaker 4: And those Colorado wolves will eventually make it down to

1567
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:29,760
Speaker 4: four corners and come down and they will approach and

1568
01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:32,760
Speaker 4: get in. I would soon get to the Mexican wolf population.

1569
01:23:33,479 --> 01:23:34,960
Speaker 4: And then what are people going to do. They're going

1570
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:38,200
Speaker 4: to start killing one wolf species subspecies to protect the

1571
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:42,120
Speaker 4: other one. I think I mean, you've had some really

1572
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:45,320
Speaker 4: good genetic people on your programs. I've so enjoyed their discussions.

1573
01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:48,559
Speaker 4: If you were trying to preserve a rare species with

1574
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 4: a unique genetic pool that was highly inbred, like the

1575
01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:55,120
Speaker 4: iroil ones were, and then they all went to extinction

1576
01:23:55,240 --> 01:23:57,720
Speaker 4: because they were two in bread, wouldn't you want to

1577
01:23:57,800 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 4: have some gene flow from the most similar population adjoining

1578
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:02,480
Speaker 4: and bringing new genes.

1579
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 5: Because historically the.

1580
01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:07,120
Speaker 7: Right but it was it.

1581
01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:09,559
Speaker 4: But even though there was all connected all the way

1582
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 4: to Mexico to Central Mexico, they were still had unique

1583
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:16,880
Speaker 4: genetic markers because they have a different habitat than the

1584
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:19,679
Speaker 4: rest of the wolves. It's a different habitat, so they're

1585
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 4: been isolated on their own way. But that's my humble opinion.

1586
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:25,720
Speaker 4: I'm a lumper, not a splitter, and I think it

1587
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 4: would behoove Mexican wolves to have some new gene flow.

1588
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:31,479
Speaker 4: And I am not in a maybe a majority opinion,

1589
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:35,719
Speaker 4: but I think people who have genetics background would agree

1590
01:24:38,040 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 4: it's going to happen. They won't be able to stop.

1591
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:42,320
Speaker 1: It, well, sounds like they will maybe try.

1592
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:45,320
Speaker 4: They will try, They're already trying. They do move all

1593
01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:47,559
Speaker 4: these wolves back every time they go out of the.

1594
01:24:47,520 --> 01:24:49,040
Speaker 1: Rescoveries are they getting them?

1595
01:24:49,240 --> 01:24:51,840
Speaker 4: They catch them everyone, everyone of them collared.

1596
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:54,400
Speaker 1: Just about so they have no idea.

1597
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:56,880
Speaker 4: And also when a wolf is in an area, you do.

1598
01:24:57,720 --> 01:24:59,560
Speaker 1: A little baby and like you put the baby in

1599
01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:01,439
Speaker 1: the mill of room the while it crawls away and

1600
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 1: you go get it and set it back. And they

1601
01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:06,680
Speaker 1: thought about it. Get an invisible.

1602
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:09,360
Speaker 6: Fence, right, I mean, that's how we deal with dogs wondering.

1603
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:12,280
Speaker 4: I don't think that would work for them, but anyway,

1604
01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:14,960
Speaker 4: And when wolves go to an area, they leave scatt

1605
01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:18,400
Speaker 4: they kill things. People see them. Everybody's got trail gameras

1606
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:20,800
Speaker 4: everybody and the brothers all looking for the biggest delcor water.

1607
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:25,120
Speaker 4: You see them, You see him, right, you know they're there.

1608
01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:27,720
Speaker 4: They're not small and sneaky like lions. They're just not.

1609
01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:30,919
Speaker 4: They instead of sneaking around and hiding in a rock crevices,

1610
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:35,160
Speaker 4: they come into town in Harley's I mean wolves animals.

1611
01:25:36,320 --> 01:25:39,760
Speaker 1: That's a T shirt. That's a T shirt. There's two

1612
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:41,720
Speaker 1: I want to talk about, just to give you a

1613
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:43,920
Speaker 1: little taste of what's common. I want to talk about

1614
01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:49,920
Speaker 1: mountain lions, Okay, difference mountains and wolves. Yep, I want

1615
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:52,080
Speaker 1: to talk about why wolves don't kill people.

1616
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:55,360
Speaker 4: That's a good one, But first I.

1617
01:25:55,360 --> 01:25:58,160
Speaker 1: Want to talk a little bit more about Colorado. Okay,

1618
01:25:58,760 --> 01:26:01,680
Speaker 1: crystal Ball for me, and you're totally excused, like like

1619
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:04,240
Speaker 1: this is just crystal Ball land. This is if you

1620
01:26:04,280 --> 01:26:09,320
Speaker 1: had to make a guess. Yeah, what is Give me

1621
01:26:09,360 --> 01:26:13,080
Speaker 1: a timeframe. What's going on in twenty years in Colorado?

1622
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 1: Just take a wild stab. I'm gonna known. Diane Boyd

1623
01:26:17,520 --> 01:26:21,680
Speaker 1: is taking a wild stab. This is not an academic exercise.

1624
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:26,599
Speaker 1: She's taking a wild stab. Twenty years what's the wolf land?

1625
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 1: What's the landscape in Colorado? What's going on?

1626
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:32,080
Speaker 4: People will still be fighting where their wolves should be

1627
01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:34,880
Speaker 4: or should not be there, And despite our human intentions,

1628
01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:37,680
Speaker 4: they will continue to expand their populations and fill up

1629
01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:40,400
Speaker 4: appropriate habitat in Colorado, and they will have to kill

1630
01:26:40,439 --> 01:26:43,280
Speaker 4: some for killing livestock, and the other ones that aren't

1631
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:46,840
Speaker 4: killing livestock will continue to find habitat and reproduce. And

1632
01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:48,040
Speaker 4: I think there'll be more wolves.

1633
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:51,280
Speaker 6: So it'll be Montana twenty years after nineteen ninety six.

1634
01:26:51,320 --> 01:26:53,920
Speaker 5: What about the hunting season? You see that happen eventually

1635
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 5: hunting for wolves?

1636
01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:57,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that when you get enough wolves to

1637
01:26:57,720 --> 01:27:02,559
Speaker 4: create social tolerance. Season is a good idea. It's probably

1638
01:27:02,600 --> 01:27:05,080
Speaker 4: not such a good idea for individual wolves, but in

1639
01:27:05,160 --> 01:27:08,439
Speaker 4: terms of creating tolerance on the landscape, and I think

1640
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:12,640
Speaker 4: you have to give the tools to livestock producers that

1641
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:14,720
Speaker 4: they can take care problems themselves. I mean, that's what

1642
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:17,280
Speaker 4: they did in Montana early on. I just say follow

1643
01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:20,160
Speaker 4: the model that worked in Montana. It's worked pretty well.

1644
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:22,599
Speaker 4: I mean we went from one wolf to you know,

1645
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:24,080
Speaker 4: thousand wolves pretty quickly.

1646
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:27,040
Speaker 1: And then in your crystal Ball can you extend that

1647
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:32,120
Speaker 1: crystal Ball scenario to the Mexican gray wolf. They're all

1648
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:34,040
Speaker 1: making love and they're just mixed in together.

1649
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:38,800
Speaker 4: Should have hefelfinger here too?

1650
01:27:38,920 --> 01:27:43,280
Speaker 1: So well, yeah, but this isn't what you want to have. Yeah,

1651
01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:44,280
Speaker 1: this is just your guess work.

1652
01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:48,240
Speaker 4: People will still be fighting over Mexican wolves, and Mexican

1653
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 4: wolves may hit I'm just trying to think, they may

1654
01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:55,439
Speaker 4: hit a critical mass where they're not all colored, and

1655
01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:58,559
Speaker 4: then some of them will escape beyond the the geo

1656
01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 4: fencing of their their loud recovery zone and began going elsewhere.

1657
01:28:03,240 --> 01:28:07,639
Speaker 4: But if they continue to heavily, heavily handle and manage

1658
01:28:07,640 --> 01:28:11,439
Speaker 4: the wolves and collar everyone that well, they're not all collared,

1659
01:28:11,439 --> 01:28:14,720
Speaker 4: but manage its a significant portion population. It's going to

1660
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:16,760
Speaker 4: be really hard for those wolves to sneak through, but

1661
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:19,479
Speaker 4: that's going to be And I just think the wolves

1662
01:28:19,479 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 4: from the north will come down and start integrating. I'm

1663
01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:26,000
Speaker 4: hoping they will. And I think Mike Phillips would disagree

1664
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:28,360
Speaker 4: with that too. But the other people I know, biologists,

1665
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:30,880
Speaker 4: we talk about this. It's like, yeah, let them, let

1666
01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:33,040
Speaker 4: them blend, Let's see what happens. It's sort of like

1667
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:37,400
Speaker 4: this this animal of the northeast, the Koi wolf dog thing.

1668
01:28:38,080 --> 01:28:40,920
Speaker 4: Nobody really knows what it is, but that animal has

1669
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:43,760
Speaker 4: made a really successful living. It's found a niche that

1670
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 4: was partially formed but what we tolerate and how we

1671
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:49,479
Speaker 4: modified the landscape, so this animal that lives there now

1672
01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 4: is doing really well well. Mexican wolf gray wolf mix

1673
01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:56,439
Speaker 4: probably be the same way. At least they'll have more

1674
01:28:56,479 --> 01:28:59,160
Speaker 4: genetic variation. They probably won't go extinct due to inbreeding.

1675
01:29:00,760 --> 01:29:03,200
Speaker 4: Who knows, but you asked my crystal ball. I think

1676
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:06,120
Speaker 4: there would be more wolves. I think they will fill

1677
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:09,719
Speaker 4: in more places and there will always be the battles

1678
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:11,679
Speaker 4: to have them on the landscape always.

1679
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:15,400
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know how there's sports betting. I

1680
01:29:15,439 --> 01:29:16,960
Speaker 1: think there should be a way that you could like

1681
01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:19,960
Speaker 1: that we could run like a bookie thing and have

1682
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:26,320
Speaker 1: uh Colorado wolf betting. H I mean you got them.

1683
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:29,600
Speaker 6: You can bet on anything though, Yeah, I mean I

1684
01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:33,280
Speaker 6: wouldn't be surprised if you could get odds on Colorado's

1685
01:29:33,280 --> 01:29:34,800
Speaker 6: wolf population in ten years.

1686
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:37,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and people could make like bets and you could

1687
01:29:37,240 --> 01:29:38,639
Speaker 1: win money and lose money.

1688
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:43,960
Speaker 4: I think to the more the more radical people get,

1689
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:47,880
Speaker 4: I think it will cause more people to feel sort

1690
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:50,680
Speaker 4: of moved towards the metal. Like this fellow over in

1691
01:29:51,040 --> 01:29:53,759
Speaker 4: where was it Daniel Wyoming who ran over the wolf

1692
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:56,360
Speaker 4: with the snowmobile this winter? You must have And he

1693
01:29:56,439 --> 01:29:58,599
Speaker 4: crippled it so couldn't get away, and then he ties

1694
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:00,680
Speaker 4: it up and brings it into a b All of

1695
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:03,280
Speaker 4: this is illegal, which is a minor thing, but it's

1696
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:05,880
Speaker 4: really immoral. And he brings into a bar and people

1697
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:07,840
Speaker 4: are laughing with it and getting their pictures taken in

1698
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:10,160
Speaker 4: and finally hauls it out back and shoots it. Well,

1699
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:13,920
Speaker 4: that's just one animal, but it had huge ripples throughout

1700
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:17,000
Speaker 4: the country, and that's affecting wolf policy because of one

1701
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:20,400
Speaker 4: guy's action. And I think those people that maybe didn't

1702
01:30:20,439 --> 01:30:23,840
Speaker 4: really care about wolves or maybe dislike them somewhat moderately,

1703
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:27,920
Speaker 4: see that is that is not fair, Chase, that is

1704
01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:31,240
Speaker 4: not acceptable to me as a hunter or a human being,

1705
01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:34,120
Speaker 4: and we have to put brakes on that. I kind

1706
01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:37,360
Speaker 4: of see the more radical people get. I'm hoping that

1707
01:30:37,560 --> 01:30:39,799
Speaker 4: people come to the middle more. That's my hope.

1708
01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:46,799
Speaker 1: Why don't wolves kill people? Because they do it Romania,

1709
01:30:47,040 --> 01:30:48,679
Speaker 1: I've wondered that for a long time.

1710
01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:53,120
Speaker 4: Well, sometimes come on, So it's not more common there, No,

1711
01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:56,400
Speaker 4: But there's all those like crazy old stories about.

1712
01:30:57,200 --> 01:30:58,160
Speaker 1: That's not None of that's true.

1713
01:30:58,280 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 4: So in my book, I could read you a little

1714
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:05,040
Speaker 4: paragraph about statistics, but do you want me to find it.

1715
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:07,000
Speaker 4: I'll have to look for it for a moment when

1716
01:31:07,040 --> 01:31:10,560
Speaker 4: you're talking. I'll look for it. But wolves have occasionally

1717
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:14,400
Speaker 4: killed people in modern times. Documented Kenton Carnegie was killed

1718
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:17,919
Speaker 4: up in northern Saskatchewan and in the eighties early nineties

1719
01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:21,439
Speaker 4: by He was at a remote camp and these wolves

1720
01:31:21,479 --> 01:31:23,439
Speaker 4: were coming into the dump. So think of think dump

1721
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 4: bear not afraid of people. And he went out one

1722
01:31:26,200 --> 01:31:30,640
Speaker 4: evening alone with his camera and he was found the

1723
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:32,760
Speaker 4: next morning, I believe, and he had been killed and

1724
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:35,519
Speaker 4: partially consumed, and it appeared to be wolves. There was

1725
01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:37,559
Speaker 4: wolves and bears both feeding on him, but it looked

1726
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:41,840
Speaker 4: like the wounds were wolf probably, So that's one guy.

1727
01:31:41,840 --> 01:31:44,160
Speaker 4: And then there was a woman jogger in Alaska who

1728
01:31:44,200 --> 01:31:47,400
Speaker 4: was jogging and she was attacked members killed. I don't

1729
01:31:47,400 --> 01:31:51,120
Speaker 4: think she was consumed. I don't remember on that, but

1730
01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:55,519
Speaker 4: it was definitely predation they killed her. And there's been

1731
01:31:55,560 --> 01:32:00,360
Speaker 4: a few, I guess attacks encounters of wolves that have

1732
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:04,679
Speaker 4: been habituated, especially like on some of the islands off

1733
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:08,760
Speaker 4: of British Columbia and Washington where people kayak and they're

1734
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:11,040
Speaker 4: feeding wolves out on the beaches and wolves get friendly

1735
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:12,840
Speaker 4: and they come in and bite somebody in their sleeping bag.

1736
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:17,879
Speaker 4: Because they don't stuff like that Algonquin Park habituated wolves

1737
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:21,760
Speaker 4: that becomes a problem. So those are the cases that

1738
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,679
Speaker 4: I know of. And then Mark mcnae wrote a really

1739
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:27,759
Speaker 4: long document published you could google his name, Mark McNee

1740
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:30,519
Speaker 4: of all the wolf encounters that he could find that

1741
01:32:30,560 --> 01:32:35,639
Speaker 4: were verifiable olden days. A lot of wolves were rabid.

1742
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:39,040
Speaker 4: I mean a lot. I shouldn't say that. A lot

1743
01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:42,639
Speaker 4: of the encounters with wolves that had bitten were rabbid. Okay,

1744
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:45,599
Speaker 4: that happens with every species, bats, foxes, it doesn't matter.

1745
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:49,120
Speaker 4: But if you look at what other predators attack humans,

1746
01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:54,280
Speaker 4: people are killed every year by black bears, grizzly bears,

1747
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:59,080
Speaker 4: some deer, some elk, mountain lions, coyotes. That's not true

1748
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:02,280
Speaker 4: with wolves. And so you say, why don't why don't

1749
01:33:02,479 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 4: people kill wolves more often? Oh? My, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, right.

1750
01:33:06,479 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 2: That's what I mean.

1751
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:09,240
Speaker 1: And there I think it's an interesting question because they could.

1752
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:12,080
Speaker 4: Oh absolutely. I look at any of us in this room.

1753
01:33:12,439 --> 01:33:14,280
Speaker 4: If one of us was out in the woods by

1754
01:33:14,320 --> 01:33:17,439
Speaker 4: ourselves and a pack of eight wolves came along, we'd

1755
01:33:17,439 --> 01:33:17,920
Speaker 4: be toast.

1756
01:33:18,080 --> 01:33:22,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could handle three, but eight probably.

1757
01:33:22,640 --> 01:33:26,200
Speaker 5: Domestic dogs kill all kinds of people, Yes, but they could.

1758
01:33:26,280 --> 01:33:30,519
Speaker 2: Right, So what what is your hypothesis as to why not?

1759
01:33:32,120 --> 01:33:34,479
Speaker 4: My thought about that is, well, we, first of all,

1760
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:38,200
Speaker 4: when we domesticated dogs, we changed the gene pool. They

1761
01:33:38,240 --> 01:33:42,800
Speaker 4: have the dogs here, but he's on my foot right now, Okay,

1762
01:33:43,080 --> 01:33:45,400
Speaker 4: I'll make sure doesn't pull any cables. Over the course

1763
01:33:45,439 --> 01:33:49,920
Speaker 4: of time we have When we started domesticating livestock about

1764
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:54,200
Speaker 4: eleven thousand years ago, we changed our relationship with wolves.

1765
01:33:54,240 --> 01:33:57,400
Speaker 4: Prior to that, it wasn't much. There was no reason

1766
01:33:57,439 --> 01:34:00,080
Speaker 4: I have conflict. As a matter of fact, I talk

1767
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:06,560
Speaker 4: about some archaeologists, some ancient people study wolves, and anciently

1768
01:34:06,920 --> 01:34:13,080
Speaker 4: they their theory was that humans in primitive times would

1769
01:34:13,120 --> 01:34:16,559
Speaker 4: watch wolves haunt successfully. So wolves and humans live in

1770
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:19,439
Speaker 4: the same family structure group of animals that are related.

1771
01:34:19,520 --> 01:34:22,720
Speaker 4: Usually they would watch them hunt and they end up

1772
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 4: learning that if they could follow the wolves, they could

1773
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:30,559
Speaker 4: steal meet from them. So they would watch the wolves,

1774
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:33,240
Speaker 4: and when wolves picked out something, then the wolves humans

1775
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:35,799
Speaker 4: really humans could go over there with their adladdles or spears,

1776
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:38,479
Speaker 4: drive the wolves away, take the meat they wanted, and

1777
01:34:38,520 --> 01:34:40,439
Speaker 4: then leave, and then the wolves clean up the scraps.

1778
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:44,400
Speaker 4: This was their hypothesis, so they actually it was no

1779
01:34:44,520 --> 01:34:50,240
Speaker 4: way a synergetic or altruistic relationship. It's brutes arrival, but

1780
01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:54,120
Speaker 4: they sort of collaborated and out of that, eventually we

1781
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:56,920
Speaker 4: learned that we could make dogs, I guess, but I

1782
01:34:56,960 --> 01:35:02,080
Speaker 4: think over time, once we started to desticate animals, especially livestock,

1783
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:07,120
Speaker 4: those wolves that were aggressive towards people were weeded out

1784
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:09,280
Speaker 4: and killed. And I think that gene pool has been

1785
01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:13,160
Speaker 4: so heavily selected against. I think the behavior is still there.

1786
01:35:13,200 --> 01:35:15,320
Speaker 4: That's the only thing I can think of, because how

1787
01:35:15,360 --> 01:35:18,599
Speaker 4: many people have successfully domesticated allions made a different animal

1788
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:21,479
Speaker 4: out of it, or bears or coiotes, right, these other

1789
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:25,360
Speaker 4: things that kill us people haven't And we've spent so

1790
01:35:25,439 --> 01:35:28,800
Speaker 4: much time competing with wolves of their livestock and killing

1791
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:33,000
Speaker 4: them that I just think that aggression towards people is

1792
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:36,320
Speaker 4: no longer there. And maybe with the crystal ball, maybe

1793
01:35:36,400 --> 01:35:38,920
Speaker 4: three hundred yards from now and we haven't been killing wolves,

1794
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:42,640
Speaker 4: maybe that'll change. I don't know. I don't know, but

1795
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:44,000
Speaker 4: it is an interesting question.

1796
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:47,439
Speaker 8: I was gonna just wanted to weigh. In episode four

1797
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:51,200
Speaker 8: sixty six Dire Wolves and Ancient Hunting Dogs, we touch

1798
01:35:51,280 --> 01:35:53,759
Speaker 8: on some of what you just mentioned Kith Angela Perry

1799
01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:57,000
Speaker 8: and what does she say that same thing we talked

1800
01:35:57,000 --> 01:35:57,400
Speaker 8: about that?

1801
01:35:57,520 --> 01:35:59,080
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm gonna have to look that one up. I

1802
01:35:59,080 --> 01:35:59,560
Speaker 4: didn't hear it.

1803
01:36:00,000 --> 01:36:03,200
Speaker 5: Whe do they fall? Like maybe this is a weird question,

1804
01:36:03,240 --> 01:36:05,880
Speaker 5: but where do they fall on the intelligent scale scale

1805
01:36:05,920 --> 01:36:08,559
Speaker 5: compared to like a bear or a mountain lion or

1806
01:36:08,800 --> 01:36:11,519
Speaker 5: like like would that play a role and they're like

1807
01:36:12,439 --> 01:36:16,120
Speaker 5: understanding of how to interact with humans, like, are they

1808
01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:16,840
Speaker 5: smarter than.

1809
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:20,160
Speaker 4: A bear or Ah, the bear researchers would say hell no, right,

1810
01:36:20,439 --> 01:36:23,360
Speaker 4: but I can tell you. I mean I've trapped a

1811
01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:26,200
Speaker 4: lot of animals in my life, everything from weasels to grizzlies,

1812
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:29,920
Speaker 4: and the wolves are the hardest animal to catch. Bears

1813
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:31,800
Speaker 4: are not hard at all because they don't need to be.

1814
01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:34,800
Speaker 4: They're the top thing and they eat everything. Wolves have

1815
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:38,519
Speaker 4: had to learn to sneaker on strict nine baits guns,

1816
01:36:39,040 --> 01:36:42,920
Speaker 4: and because they're a social species, they have to communicate well,

1817
01:36:43,000 --> 01:36:46,439
Speaker 4: they have to collaborate. They're different. I mean, none of

1818
01:36:46,439 --> 01:36:49,040
Speaker 4: these other predators that we've been talking about are social

1819
01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:53,280
Speaker 4: and living groups. And I believe that gives wolves a

1820
01:36:53,520 --> 01:36:59,040
Speaker 4: need evolutionarily to be high intelligence. They have to work,

1821
01:36:59,200 --> 01:37:01,800
Speaker 4: I do they I mean you can look at your dog,

1822
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:05,200
Speaker 4: which is kind of a challenged version of a wolf.

1823
01:37:05,520 --> 01:37:10,040
Speaker 4: I mean, they're not that good at anything, and they're

1824
01:37:10,120 --> 01:37:12,519
Speaker 4: incredibly bright. I'm trying to use the right political term here,

1825
01:37:14,280 --> 01:37:16,439
Speaker 4: but they're incredibly brilliant. I mean, if you look at

1826
01:37:16,479 --> 01:37:18,639
Speaker 4: what you can train a Melania or a border Collie

1827
01:37:18,640 --> 01:37:21,280
Speaker 4: to do, and the wolves are much smarter than that.

1828
01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:25,280
Speaker 4: They just are so that's my humble opinion. But again

1829
01:37:25,320 --> 01:37:27,640
Speaker 4: the Baar researchers would argue that, and case you have to.

1830
01:37:27,680 --> 01:37:32,640
Speaker 4: I mean, we're looking at a human lens to value intelligence.

1831
01:37:33,360 --> 01:37:37,200
Speaker 1: That's really interesting, man. That's to say that a wolf

1832
01:37:37,280 --> 01:37:38,639
Speaker 1: is smarter than your pet dog.

1833
01:37:39,200 --> 01:37:42,760
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they don't have to be smart. We feed them,

1834
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:43,840
Speaker 4: we house them.

1835
01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:45,599
Speaker 10: They don't need.

1836
01:37:45,520 --> 01:37:46,040
Speaker 4: To be smart.

1837
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:49,439
Speaker 3: They don't have to kill an elk every couple of days, right,

1838
01:37:49,840 --> 01:37:51,280
Speaker 3: and yeah, it's.

1839
01:37:51,160 --> 01:37:53,200
Speaker 6: Like a wolf with a restrict plate or something.

1840
01:37:56,400 --> 01:38:00,559
Speaker 1: Our dog is not an exceptional dog. It's totally fine

1841
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:03,360
Speaker 1: that everybody lif loves it, but it's not exceptional anyway,

1842
01:38:04,080 --> 01:38:06,000
Speaker 1: used to for whatever reason, would like to chew on

1843
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:08,720
Speaker 1: rose bushes and chew on raspberry bushes. It like the

1844
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:12,559
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, the thorniness of it. And I have

1845
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 1: one time just took my kids out and we put

1846
01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:19,960
Speaker 1: a bunch of cayenne in the dirt around a rose

1847
01:38:20,000 --> 01:38:23,000
Speaker 1: bush and she went up to it and got a

1848
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:27,280
Speaker 1: nose full of that. Right, has never ever gone.

1849
01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:30,320
Speaker 4: Near same thing with you know e callers and training

1850
01:38:30,360 --> 01:38:31,800
Speaker 4: and no dogs are.

1851
01:38:31,720 --> 01:38:33,880
Speaker 1: Sorry when you think about how getting hard to catch

1852
01:38:35,240 --> 01:38:39,559
Speaker 1: the dog's like, dude, you know, to make that connection, right,

1853
01:38:39,960 --> 01:38:42,400
Speaker 1: So you think it's something being hard to trap, like

1854
01:38:42,439 --> 01:38:44,719
Speaker 1: you sting its toe one time, and there's just something

1855
01:38:44,800 --> 01:38:46,280
Speaker 1: about that situation.

1856
01:38:46,600 --> 01:38:49,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the old timers when they're read the books,

1857
01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:52,320
Speaker 4: the Last of the Loaners and the last renegade wolves

1858
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:54,479
Speaker 4: and guys trying to catch them, the stuff they did

1859
01:38:54,520 --> 01:38:57,400
Speaker 4: to try not smart these wolves. Sometimes. Well, one of

1860
01:38:57,439 --> 01:39:00,439
Speaker 4: the worst things I read was they've been trapping this this,

1861
01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 4: this couple of wolves, the last ones in the Southwest,

1862
01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:06,280
Speaker 4: and they just couldn't catch the male, and so they

1863
01:39:06,400 --> 01:39:08,439
Speaker 4: ended up catching the female and then they took her

1864
01:39:08,439 --> 01:39:10,200
Speaker 4: and used her for bait, and the wolf went in

1865
01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:12,800
Speaker 4: the next day. That was it. He was done and

1866
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:15,360
Speaker 4: they spent. Yeah, kind of sad.

1867
01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:19,160
Speaker 1: And Cormick McCarthy's the Crossing. He's trying to catch a

1868
01:39:19,200 --> 01:39:23,000
Speaker 1: Mexican gray wolf, which he then brings back across the border,

1869
01:39:23,080 --> 01:39:27,040
Speaker 1: but he winds up he can't catch it, and eventually

1870
01:39:27,040 --> 01:39:31,280
Speaker 1: makes a set in his fire pit because he would

1871
01:39:31,280 --> 01:39:33,400
Speaker 1: see that a wolf now and then come and sniff around.

1872
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:36,559
Speaker 1: So instead of making sets normal sets, he made a

1873
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:40,200
Speaker 1: set in his fire, let this fire burn down, cool off,

1874
01:39:40,200 --> 01:39:42,200
Speaker 1: and then made a set in there. I think that's

1875
01:39:42,200 --> 01:39:44,639
Speaker 1: how he catches it. That's how he gets it, gets it,

1876
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:48,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. Then he brings it back to Mexico

1877
01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:50,120
Speaker 1: because he can't bring himself to kill it, Like he's

1878
01:39:50,120 --> 01:39:51,840
Speaker 1: supposed to catch it and kill it, but can't. He

1879
01:39:51,880 --> 01:39:54,080
Speaker 1: brings it back to Mexican and it quickly dies. Anyways,

1880
01:39:55,200 --> 01:40:00,080
Speaker 1: that's how Corny McCarthy soone kills it. Anyways.

1881
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:03,840
Speaker 4: Wow, that's a cheerful story. Well, I mean, when it

1882
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:08,439
Speaker 4: comes to wolves, there's no good ends for any large

1883
01:40:08,439 --> 01:40:10,759
Speaker 4: carnivore in the wild, you know. I mean, they don't

1884
01:40:11,080 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 4: end isn't good for them, no matter what it is.

1885
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:14,880
Speaker 4: But they try and live a really full life, and

1886
01:40:14,880 --> 01:40:17,640
Speaker 4: most importantly they dry and leave their jeans behind. If

1887
01:40:17,680 --> 01:40:19,080
Speaker 4: they can do that, they've succeeded.

1888
01:40:19,120 --> 01:40:20,960
Speaker 6: But you're saying they don't move to a golf course.

1889
01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:23,480
Speaker 6: Watch a lot of network telling there.

1890
01:40:23,360 --> 01:40:25,880
Speaker 4: Was Okay, this is not in my book, but we

1891
01:40:26,040 --> 01:40:28,200
Speaker 4: my last couple of years of working, we got a

1892
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:31,679
Speaker 4: call from somebody living in a gated community between Whitefish

1893
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:34,920
Speaker 4: and Callous Spell and called up said we've got some

1894
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:38,599
Speaker 4: wolf pups in our driveway. And it's like, oh, okay, great, thanks,

1895
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:41,760
Speaker 4: I'm thinking it's got to be skyotes. Yeah, they're living

1896
01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:44,799
Speaker 4: in this gated community in an urban area. So anyway,

1897
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:47,840
Speaker 4: I said, I said, we took some videos. I said, great,

1898
01:40:47,640 --> 01:40:49,479
Speaker 4: can you send me the video? So they email me

1899
01:40:49,560 --> 01:40:52,000
Speaker 4: the video. It's like, oh my god, those are wolf pups,

1900
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:55,400
Speaker 4: no kidding, in their driveway next to their mailbox and

1901
01:40:55,439 --> 01:40:57,719
Speaker 4: they're playing in the culvert that goes under their driveway.

1902
01:40:57,760 --> 01:41:00,880
Speaker 4: It's like wow. So we go out there and talk

1903
01:41:00,920 --> 01:41:03,800
Speaker 4: to other neighbors and several people had seen them. And

1904
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:07,480
Speaker 4: so this is a gated community with people with huge houses.

1905
01:41:08,040 --> 01:41:11,320
Speaker 4: They're all realthy. They love wildlife. That's where they live there.

1906
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:14,080
Speaker 4: There's huge amounts of green space in the community. There's

1907
01:41:14,120 --> 01:41:17,639
Speaker 4: white tails everywhere because no hunting is allowed. Talk about

1908
01:41:17,720 --> 01:41:22,000
Speaker 4: Nirvana for wolves. They're protected, they got endless food resources.

1909
01:41:22,120 --> 01:41:24,920
Speaker 4: No one's going to hurt them. So we tried to

1910
01:41:25,000 --> 01:41:29,400
Speaker 4: catch the adults through a male and female. Had no luck.

1911
01:41:29,479 --> 01:41:31,000
Speaker 1: These are what reasons did you want to catch put

1912
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:31,600
Speaker 1: a collar on it?

1913
01:41:31,680 --> 01:41:33,519
Speaker 4: Oh, I want to know what happened at the end

1914
01:41:33,560 --> 01:41:36,200
Speaker 4: of the summer. Okay, So what happens what's going to

1915
01:41:36,240 --> 01:41:38,519
Speaker 4: happen when they leave this? You know, ten square mile

1916
01:41:38,600 --> 01:41:42,240
Speaker 4: gated community. We couldn't catch them. They were so smart

1917
01:41:42,280 --> 01:41:45,280
Speaker 4: about people. We had them on trail cameras, couldn't get

1918
01:41:45,320 --> 01:41:47,960
Speaker 4: them to step on the magic pan the size you

1919
01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:51,880
Speaker 4: know of an oreo cookie. Literally. And then after summer

1920
01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:54,120
Speaker 4: came and the wolves went on and they left and

1921
01:41:54,160 --> 01:41:57,719
Speaker 4: they have to disperse the bigger happy hunting grounds square

1922
01:41:57,760 --> 01:42:01,439
Speaker 4: miles on average for a pack they just won by

1923
01:42:01,479 --> 01:42:05,559
Speaker 4: one got shot gone, So but they can't live in

1924
01:42:05,600 --> 01:42:08,280
Speaker 4: ten square miles. They have to move on. But it

1925
01:42:08,360 --> 01:42:11,120
Speaker 4: was so interesting to me that those wolves set up

1926
01:42:11,200 --> 01:42:14,599
Speaker 4: in that community. Yeah, so, I mean they will try

1927
01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:14,840
Speaker 4: to live.

1928
01:42:14,840 --> 01:42:15,919
Speaker 2: That wasn't by accident.

1929
01:42:16,680 --> 01:42:18,439
Speaker 4: I don't know how smart is a wolf.

1930
01:42:18,520 --> 01:42:22,519
Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, smarter than Can you contextualize that

1931
01:42:22,560 --> 01:42:25,080
Speaker 2: a little bit more about how there's no good ending

1932
01:42:25,120 --> 01:42:27,040
Speaker 2: for a wolf because I think we all in this

1933
01:42:27,160 --> 01:42:29,840
Speaker 2: room understand what that means when you say that, but

1934
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:31,720
Speaker 2: I think that a lot of people out there are

1935
01:42:32,080 --> 01:42:34,840
Speaker 2: When you say that, it almost sounds like you're saying, oh,

1936
01:42:34,840 --> 01:42:36,559
Speaker 2: they're all going to end up getting shot. But that's

1937
01:42:36,600 --> 01:42:37,439
Speaker 2: not what you're saying.

1938
01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:41,480
Speaker 4: No, I mean, a wolf is an apex predator, top predator.

1939
01:42:41,960 --> 01:42:45,479
Speaker 4: It's always hunting to hunt. It's always having to compete

1940
01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:48,759
Speaker 4: for food, so they get In Yellowstone Park, the largest

1941
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:53,400
Speaker 4: cause immortality is wolves killing other wolves protecting their territory.

1942
01:42:53,439 --> 01:42:57,040
Speaker 4: They trespass and they get killed outside of the park,

1943
01:42:57,240 --> 01:42:59,120
Speaker 4: even when I was doing my work when they were

1944
01:42:59,160 --> 01:43:03,280
Speaker 4: still protected. Eighty five percent of mortality is caused by humans.

1945
01:43:05,360 --> 01:43:08,000
Speaker 4: They don't live very long. Take a guess and how long.

1946
01:43:08,160 --> 01:43:10,519
Speaker 4: So if we put together the data from Yellowstone Park

1947
01:43:10,560 --> 01:43:13,360
Speaker 4: in Minnesota and Montana, take a guess in the average

1948
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:17,200
Speaker 4: longevity of a wolf from the time they're detected, because

1949
01:43:17,240 --> 01:43:19,000
Speaker 4: some die in the den young, so by the time

1950
01:43:19,040 --> 01:43:21,280
Speaker 4: they're four or five weeks old in their scene until

1951
01:43:21,280 --> 01:43:25,559
Speaker 4: they die, take a guess annual mortality. Take an average

1952
01:43:25,920 --> 01:43:27,840
Speaker 4: average age at which they die.

1953
01:43:28,240 --> 01:43:29,920
Speaker 1: Four eighteen months.

1954
01:43:29,960 --> 01:43:33,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to go six months, four point.

1955
01:43:33,360 --> 01:43:34,960
Speaker 4: Three, four point three.

1956
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:36,639
Speaker 1: Did you read that? No? I didn't.

1957
01:43:36,640 --> 01:43:37,960
Speaker 4: You're right on the money four point three.

1958
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:39,519
Speaker 6: I was gonna go with four point six, but then

1959
01:43:39,520 --> 01:43:41,280
Speaker 6: I hedged my bets and you thought you were going

1960
01:43:41,320 --> 01:43:41,920
Speaker 6: to surprise us.

1961
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:46,280
Speaker 4: Randall for the four he gets the trip four point

1962
01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:46,840
Speaker 4: three years.

1963
01:43:47,240 --> 01:43:48,960
Speaker 2: Oh, it's years years.

1964
01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:52,640
Speaker 4: So they most of them don't live long enough to

1965
01:43:52,680 --> 01:43:56,400
Speaker 4: reproduce what is the like to randal ding ding ding.

1966
01:43:57,840 --> 01:44:01,320
Speaker 1: A doctrine he does, and are you out? Like so

1967
01:44:01,439 --> 01:44:01,640
Speaker 1: do I?

1968
01:44:03,880 --> 01:44:08,080
Speaker 5: Not including Yellowstone perhaps, but like, what is the survival

1969
01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:10,559
Speaker 5: rate of say a litter of six pups, how many

1970
01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:14,679
Speaker 5: of them will reach sexual maturity? Is that a pretty

1971
01:44:14,760 --> 01:44:16,439
Speaker 5: high survival rate if.

1972
01:44:16,280 --> 01:44:19,320
Speaker 4: They make it to the till like the second year,

1973
01:44:19,360 --> 01:44:22,200
Speaker 4: they do pretty well. The first year when they go

1974
01:44:22,320 --> 01:44:24,360
Speaker 4: between a year and two years, when they're starting to

1975
01:44:24,400 --> 01:44:28,120
Speaker 4: dispersal and they're starting to look around them, the pups themselves,

1976
01:44:28,240 --> 01:44:31,800
Speaker 4: like they pups generally make it. Generally when the time

1977
01:44:31,800 --> 01:44:33,760
Speaker 4: they're little till their first year, they do really well

1978
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:37,160
Speaker 4: because they're all protected, their fed until they get trapped

1979
01:44:37,200 --> 01:44:40,040
Speaker 4: or shot during hunting seasons or or if they get

1980
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:44,759
Speaker 4: Sometimes humans have introduced parbo virus in distemper in an environment,

1981
01:44:44,760 --> 01:44:48,320
Speaker 4: and if that gets into the litter, mortality is very high.

1982
01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:52,280
Speaker 5: Do they ever do that thing that bears sometimes do

1983
01:44:52,400 --> 01:44:55,360
Speaker 5: where a male come in and kill No, they don't

1984
01:44:55,360 --> 01:44:55,600
Speaker 5: do that.

1985
01:44:55,720 --> 01:44:58,200
Speaker 2: Nope. Yeah, I was gonna ask other than humans, what's

1986
01:44:58,280 --> 01:44:59,000
Speaker 2: killing wolves?

1987
01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:06,160
Speaker 4: Deer elk avalanches? The first wolves? The wolves kill each other? Yeah,

1988
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:09,600
Speaker 4: I just said that in Yellowstone, So like the first mortality,

1989
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:14,920
Speaker 4: Recorded Mortality and Yellowstone Park I was told was a

1990
01:45:15,040 --> 01:45:17,320
Speaker 4: UPS driver killing a wolf when he ran it over.

1991
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:20,040
Speaker 4: I thought, could you imagine being that ups? Turf's like,

1992
01:45:20,120 --> 01:45:25,080
Speaker 4: oh my god, I just killed the national icon about it.

1993
01:45:25,120 --> 01:45:26,320
Speaker 1: I hope is hiring.

1994
01:45:28,200 --> 01:45:34,200
Speaker 4: So yeah, and they get killed by lions, they starve.

1995
01:45:35,240 --> 01:45:37,240
Speaker 4: I did have one wolf dining an avalanche.

1996
01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:40,200
Speaker 2: What about bears? The bears get after him.

1997
01:45:40,439 --> 01:45:42,479
Speaker 4: They can if it's one on one, but when you

1998
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:45,400
Speaker 4: had a whole wolf pack. Yeah, wolves kill, wolves kill

1999
01:45:45,439 --> 01:45:48,439
Speaker 4: black bears. Wolves will kill a grizzly cub if they can,

2000
01:45:48,560 --> 01:45:51,840
Speaker 4: but usually they can't. But one on one, I think, Well,

2001
01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:52,960
Speaker 4: wolves are pretty fast.

2002
01:45:53,439 --> 01:45:54,880
Speaker 1: Do they go way out of their way to kill

2003
01:45:54,920 --> 01:45:57,160
Speaker 1: coyotes in places?

2004
01:45:57,200 --> 01:46:00,519
Speaker 4: They do? Yeah? In Yellowstone Park they filled them digging

2005
01:46:00,560 --> 01:46:02,639
Speaker 4: up coyote dens and killing the pups. Pretty gruesome.

2006
01:46:04,400 --> 01:46:06,040
Speaker 1: Do they got it in for Red Fox too?

2007
01:46:06,240 --> 01:46:11,479
Speaker 4: No? So there's this yeah in the book, so trophic

2008
01:46:11,520 --> 01:46:13,320
Speaker 4: cascades we're going to get in a little bit. And

2009
01:46:13,439 --> 01:46:15,240
Speaker 4: I just want you to know that before I wrote

2010
01:46:15,280 --> 01:46:18,040
Speaker 4: this book, or while I was writing this book, I

2011
01:46:18,160 --> 01:46:22,320
Speaker 4: ended up working with Jim Hafflefinger, Dave oz Been. I mean,

2012
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:24,519
Speaker 4: it was really a hell of a good team. I

2013
01:46:24,600 --> 01:46:27,040
Speaker 4: was asked to be the senior author for the latest.

2014
01:46:27,080 --> 01:46:30,280
Speaker 4: We did an update on everything known about wolves in

2015
01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:35,400
Speaker 4: North America. We ended up being forty thousand words long

2016
01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:39,920
Speaker 4: and an eight hundred reference bibliography. It was a scientific work.

2017
01:46:40,280 --> 01:46:45,320
Speaker 4: It was grueling, it was interesting, difficult. This was my

2018
01:46:45,400 --> 01:46:50,400
Speaker 4: anecdote for writing that this book, so because this was

2019
01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:55,799
Speaker 4: more fun and personal. But the science is in that book.

2020
01:46:55,800 --> 01:46:59,080
Speaker 4: It's a major chapter. You can get it online. But

2021
01:46:59,200 --> 01:47:02,000
Speaker 4: I learned a lot. We had Dean Cloth from Canada.

2022
01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:04,240
Speaker 4: We had Joey yet And who does the Red wolves.

2023
01:47:04,240 --> 01:47:07,519
Speaker 4: We had Brent Patterson who does the Algonquin wolves. We

2024
01:47:07,560 --> 01:47:11,040
Speaker 4: had Adrian Wineban who does the Midwestern wolves. People from

2025
01:47:11,120 --> 01:47:15,640
Speaker 4: every social I mean every segment of the population. I

2026
01:47:15,760 --> 01:47:18,280
Speaker 4: learned a lot. So in terms of getting back, we

2027
01:47:18,360 --> 01:47:22,280
Speaker 4: all wonder why don't wolves kill people more often? But

2028
01:47:23,520 --> 01:47:26,640
Speaker 4: what was the question? I'm sorry, I'm rambling. Foxes. Yeah,

2029
01:47:26,720 --> 01:47:30,519
Speaker 4: so Tofa Cascades. So they documented Yellowstone like ooh, this

2030
01:47:30,560 --> 01:47:34,400
Speaker 4: is big earthshaking information that coyotes had kind of taken

2031
01:47:34,439 --> 01:47:37,439
Speaker 4: over the cana and niche in Yellowstone and kept the

2032
01:47:37,479 --> 01:47:41,719
Speaker 4: foxes population subdued, and then wolves came back and killed

2033
01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:45,160
Speaker 4: lots of coyotes, and then the fox population responded by

2034
01:47:45,200 --> 01:47:48,439
Speaker 4: increasing because wolves don't really care about fox they're not

2035
01:47:48,479 --> 01:47:51,360
Speaker 4: really a competitor, and foxes benefit from wolves they clean

2036
01:47:51,439 --> 01:47:55,719
Speaker 4: up kills. We documented that earlier in the North Fork years,

2037
01:47:55,800 --> 01:47:58,360
Speaker 4: because when I arrived in the North Fork there was

2038
01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:01,639
Speaker 4: we never saw fox anywhere up there. The first fifteen

2039
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:05,120
Speaker 4: years we had people out all winter tracking on the snow.

2040
01:48:05,160 --> 01:48:07,439
Speaker 4: We never saw a fox track. I never caught a

2041
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:10,200
Speaker 4: fox in a trap. And then when the wolves started

2042
01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:13,680
Speaker 4: building up populations, I was collaring and studying coyotes at

2043
01:48:13,720 --> 01:48:17,839
Speaker 4: the same time, and the coyote population. As the wolves

2044
01:48:17,880 --> 01:48:20,519
Speaker 4: went up, the coyotes went down, and then we started

2045
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:23,000
Speaker 4: seeing fox. I got fox standing on my property. Now

2046
01:48:23,160 --> 01:48:27,200
Speaker 4: fox are everywhere, Wolves are everywhere, Coyotes not so much so.

2047
01:48:27,240 --> 01:48:29,960
Speaker 1: He's a wolf sees that kyote and he just recognizes

2048
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:31,200
Speaker 1: it as a competitor.

2049
01:48:31,280 --> 01:48:33,760
Speaker 4: You think something to get rid of, and.

2050
01:48:33,680 --> 01:48:35,320
Speaker 1: He sees a fox and he just doesn't get too

2051
01:48:35,360 --> 01:48:35,680
Speaker 1: worked out.

2052
01:48:35,680 --> 01:48:36,599
Speaker 7: It's kind of a nuisance.

2053
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:37,759
Speaker 4: It's a difference.

2054
01:48:37,960 --> 01:48:40,479
Speaker 6: That's funny because I've I feel like I've heard people

2055
01:48:40,640 --> 01:48:43,920
Speaker 6: make that observation just in different parts of the West,

2056
01:48:44,600 --> 01:48:48,880
Speaker 6: like in Idaho specifically, people say, the coyotes have really

2057
01:48:49,000 --> 01:48:51,200
Speaker 6: dropped in numbers and we're seeing foxes now and we

2058
01:48:51,240 --> 01:48:52,320
Speaker 6: never really saw him before.

2059
01:48:52,400 --> 01:48:56,639
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's that's interesting too, because in Michigan where

2060
01:48:56,640 --> 01:48:59,400
Speaker 1: I grew up, it was always fox like, you know,

2061
01:48:59,479 --> 01:49:03,800
Speaker 1: trappers targeted red fox. That's just when coyotes came in

2062
01:49:03,800 --> 01:49:06,479
Speaker 1: in the early nineties when they really exploded in that area.

2063
01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:08,120
Speaker 1: I mean, the fox vanished.

2064
01:49:08,160 --> 01:49:09,559
Speaker 4: Man, do you need more wolves?

2065
01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:13,519
Speaker 1: What's sounds like.

2066
01:49:15,200 --> 01:49:18,519
Speaker 2: A mutual friend of ours likes to use that as

2067
01:49:18,560 --> 01:49:23,240
Speaker 2: an analogy to humans, where he's like a wolf likes

2068
01:49:23,280 --> 01:49:26,000
Speaker 2: to go around the landscape and go that ain't good

2069
01:49:26,040 --> 01:49:30,040
Speaker 2: for me and mine getting rid of it. And we're

2070
01:49:30,040 --> 01:49:33,599
Speaker 2: on a landscape going, oh no, let's bring in more wolves.

2071
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:36,800
Speaker 2: We might have less elk or less this or that,

2072
01:49:37,600 --> 01:49:40,320
Speaker 2: but let's keep them around. And he's saying, like, why

2073
01:49:40,360 --> 01:49:43,160
Speaker 2: are we the only sort of apex predator that would

2074
01:49:43,200 --> 01:49:47,320
Speaker 2: tolerate or even think of having competition as like a

2075
01:49:47,360 --> 01:49:49,600
Speaker 2: good thing, instead of saying, let's just get rid of

2076
01:49:49,680 --> 01:49:52,479
Speaker 2: all of them like a wolf might do, so that

2077
01:49:52,560 --> 01:49:55,920
Speaker 2: there's it's better for it for it's its species.

2078
01:49:56,360 --> 01:49:59,560
Speaker 1: You know, that's a good point, like like wolf a

2079
01:50:00,080 --> 01:50:03,519
Speaker 1: it's wolf lovers love all these things about wolves, but

2080
01:50:03,560 --> 01:50:05,120
Speaker 1: they don't like to see it in people.

2081
01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:06,760
Speaker 4: M M.

2082
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:10,000
Speaker 1: You know, if you're like man, that could be a

2083
01:50:10,040 --> 01:50:13,960
Speaker 1: lot of competition. I don't want that here, just thinking

2084
01:50:14,040 --> 01:50:14,320
Speaker 1: like a.

2085
01:50:14,240 --> 01:50:19,400
Speaker 4: Wearable I have a question for you. So when Krinn

2086
01:50:19,479 --> 01:50:28,439
Speaker 4: called me, she said, you have experienced increased enthusiasmic excitement, hatred,

2087
01:50:28,479 --> 01:50:32,400
Speaker 4: whatever wolf issue has been building still, like we see

2088
01:50:32,400 --> 01:50:33,680
Speaker 4: it all the time in Montana.

2089
01:50:33,760 --> 01:50:34,360
Speaker 1: I've seen this.

2090
01:50:34,800 --> 01:50:37,320
Speaker 8: Well, well we talk about this, we talk about right

2091
01:50:37,320 --> 01:50:40,120
Speaker 8: now and then on the podcast and then yeah, people right,

2092
01:50:40,360 --> 01:50:41,560
Speaker 8: I mean the feelings.

2093
01:50:41,160 --> 01:50:44,080
Speaker 4: Are feelings are running higher about wolves now than they

2094
01:50:44,080 --> 01:50:44,960
Speaker 4: were twenty years old.

2095
01:50:44,960 --> 01:50:47,880
Speaker 1: Well, no, no, no, I would say that. I would say

2096
01:50:47,920 --> 01:50:53,599
Speaker 1: that feelings, whatever high running feelings there are are high

2097
01:50:53,680 --> 01:50:58,320
Speaker 1: running only because of what's going on in Colorado. And

2098
01:50:58,400 --> 01:51:02,320
Speaker 1: then that reignited the entire debate. But I would not

2099
01:51:02,400 --> 01:51:07,160
Speaker 1: say generally, well, okay, there's a there's another hot area.

2100
01:51:07,240 --> 01:51:13,760
Speaker 1: Another hot area is in Minnesota, Wisconsin, my home state

2101
01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:15,599
Speaker 1: of Michigan. I just came from and got a lot

2102
01:51:15,640 --> 01:51:22,120
Speaker 1: of earfolds about this. Hunters are really disappointed in the

2103
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:26,720
Speaker 1: collapse of deer numbers and then not and then the

2104
01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:29,800
Speaker 1: states not having any authority to come in and do

2105
01:51:29,840 --> 01:51:32,280
Speaker 1: any kind of wolf control. And there's a little bit

2106
01:51:32,280 --> 01:51:34,000
Speaker 1: of a question of like how bad does it have

2107
01:51:34,080 --> 01:51:36,479
Speaker 1: to get and do we really need to like trade

2108
01:51:36,479 --> 01:51:38,880
Speaker 1: our deer hunting for wolves, and we can't seek a

2109
01:51:38,920 --> 01:51:43,960
Speaker 1: compromise and more of a balance them being like I

2110
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:46,439
Speaker 1: don't want to be apologetic about liking the deer hunt.

2111
01:51:46,880 --> 01:51:48,360
Speaker 1: I want to be able to deer hunt and have success.

2112
01:51:48,960 --> 01:51:52,040
Speaker 4: So what are what are this? I mean, Wisconsin had

2113
01:51:52,080 --> 01:51:54,760
Speaker 4: a huge wolf season and they really kill a lot

2114
01:51:54,760 --> 01:51:57,759
Speaker 4: of wolves, And what is the wolf season in Michigan?

2115
01:51:57,800 --> 01:52:00,440
Speaker 1: And well there's none because they got put back on the.

2116
01:52:00,120 --> 01:52:01,360
Speaker 5: Sea to protect them.

2117
01:52:01,439 --> 01:52:02,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, so an their back.

2118
01:52:02,880 --> 01:52:05,160
Speaker 5: They've closed it. They've had it, they've closed it.

2119
01:52:05,200 --> 01:52:08,479
Speaker 4: So we've had this discussion about should should wolves be

2120
01:52:08,560 --> 01:52:13,160
Speaker 4: listed or not? Right everywhere where they've come back, all

2121
01:52:13,200 --> 01:52:18,120
Speaker 4: of them in Western states, Midwestern states, some of the

2122
01:52:18,160 --> 01:52:25,880
Speaker 4: western states, they have exceeded way beyond expectations of delisting criteria. Yes,

2123
01:52:26,000 --> 01:52:29,680
Speaker 4: four years on end. So what is the value of

2124
01:52:29,720 --> 01:52:33,519
Speaker 4: the Endangered Species Act if you don't follow the rules

2125
01:52:33,520 --> 01:52:34,280
Speaker 4: of the criteria.

2126
01:52:34,439 --> 01:52:36,160
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying I can tell you what it is.

2127
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:40,840
Speaker 1: It's not anymore. It is my favorite animal protection Act.

2128
01:52:42,040 --> 01:52:46,040
Speaker 5: It's very valuable to the people who that's how, you know,

2129
01:52:46,120 --> 01:52:47,080
Speaker 5: create lawsuits.

2130
01:52:47,120 --> 01:52:49,000
Speaker 1: They don't want to talk about the numbers. They don't

2131
01:52:49,000 --> 01:52:49,919
Speaker 1: care about the numbers.

2132
01:52:49,960 --> 01:52:52,080
Speaker 4: I've had lots of people ask me when I do

2133
01:52:52,120 --> 01:52:54,960
Speaker 4: public texts, do you feel wolf should be relisted? And

2134
01:52:55,000 --> 01:52:58,160
Speaker 4: I say relisted like in Montana? Do you feel wolf

2135
01:52:58,160 --> 01:53:01,360
Speaker 4: should be realisted? They're delisted in Montana? Yeah, And I

2136
01:53:01,520 --> 01:53:05,559
Speaker 4: say then I say, okay, geographically which area Montana? And

2137
01:53:05,680 --> 01:53:08,760
Speaker 4: I say, well, you know, I don't like to see dead,

2138
01:53:08,760 --> 01:53:12,240
Speaker 4: bleeding wolves hanging off of tailgates, but they have exceeded

2139
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:16,720
Speaker 4: recovery standards. There are approximately a quarter million of wolves worldwide.

2140
01:53:17,120 --> 01:53:20,360
Speaker 4: There are how many whooping cranes, how many blackfooted ferrets?

2141
01:53:21,000 --> 01:53:24,559
Speaker 4: And I can't say biologically that we have any reason

2142
01:53:24,720 --> 01:53:28,759
Speaker 4: to have Montana wolves or Midwestern wolves on the endangered

2143
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:31,760
Speaker 4: species lifts where they're connected to Canadian populations that go

2144
01:53:31,800 --> 01:53:35,960
Speaker 4: into tens of thousands. On the other hand, do I

2145
01:53:36,160 --> 01:53:38,240
Speaker 4: like what I see going on with the management of

2146
01:53:38,320 --> 01:53:41,679
Speaker 4: wolves in Montana in particular, and the very strong anti

2147
01:53:41,680 --> 01:53:46,360
Speaker 4: wolve sentiments. No, But does it mean that they should

2148
01:53:46,720 --> 01:53:52,000
Speaker 4: go back on the list. No, so can people through

2149
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:57,479
Speaker 4: increased harvest intentsive harvest knock wolves down to from the

2150
01:53:57,560 --> 01:54:00,519
Speaker 4: spout a thousand now or nine hundred two one hundred

2151
01:54:00,560 --> 01:54:02,800
Speaker 4: and fifty, which is the trigger point at which the

2152
01:54:03,120 --> 01:54:06,439
Speaker 4: ESA says, ooh, you've now endangered this population and we're

2153
01:54:06,479 --> 01:54:08,920
Speaker 4: going to put them back on the endangered species list.

2154
01:54:09,560 --> 01:54:12,080
Speaker 4: It would be really difficult because right now people can

2155
01:54:12,680 --> 01:54:16,559
Speaker 4: hunt trap night shoot predator called dig dens. I mean,

2156
01:54:16,600 --> 01:54:19,360
Speaker 4: you can do almost anything with wolves for half the year.

2157
01:54:19,479 --> 01:54:21,640
Speaker 5: We've talked about this before, like in the case of

2158
01:54:21,760 --> 01:54:26,760
Speaker 5: Montana or Wyoming or Idaho, like it would never be

2159
01:54:26,800 --> 01:54:29,880
Speaker 5: in the state's best interest to knock them back to

2160
01:54:29,960 --> 01:54:32,320
Speaker 5: that point because then the FEDS would come back in

2161
01:54:32,440 --> 01:54:33,600
Speaker 5: and exactly.

2162
01:54:33,640 --> 01:54:37,600
Speaker 4: But what I'm saying is people are the pro wolf public.

2163
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:41,839
Speaker 4: I sit in the middle, but I'm obviously passionate about wolves.

2164
01:54:42,280 --> 01:54:46,080
Speaker 4: So the pro wolf public thinks that by increasing all

2165
01:54:46,160 --> 01:54:50,040
Speaker 4: of these parameters to allow more take I don't like

2166
01:54:50,120 --> 01:54:53,040
Speaker 4: the word harvests more kill, that we're going to put

2167
01:54:53,080 --> 01:54:56,680
Speaker 4: them down one hundred and fifty. I think you can't

2168
01:54:56,720 --> 01:54:57,640
Speaker 4: do that without poison.

2169
01:54:58,480 --> 01:55:01,080
Speaker 2: Because you're right that's the point you're is it. Even

2170
01:55:01,080 --> 01:55:03,280
Speaker 2: as liberal as it is here for six months out

2171
01:55:03,320 --> 01:55:05,400
Speaker 2: of the year, we're still not able to knock them

2172
01:55:05,400 --> 01:55:06,320
Speaker 2: back that much.

2173
01:55:06,880 --> 01:55:09,200
Speaker 4: Right, We've caught them back some, and I mean, like

2174
01:55:09,480 --> 01:55:14,960
Speaker 4: this guy in Daniel's Montaneo, Dianuel Wyoming, it just is disgusting.

2175
01:55:15,000 --> 01:55:16,640
Speaker 4: I just you shouldn't do that with an elk, with

2176
01:55:16,720 --> 01:55:18,840
Speaker 4: a bear. With a wolf, should just behave like that

2177
01:55:18,840 --> 01:55:22,920
Speaker 4: with a wild animal. But with the liberal seasons we've got,

2178
01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:25,080
Speaker 4: and this year they did increase, their harvest is up

2179
01:55:25,120 --> 01:55:26,720
Speaker 4: to I think two hundred and eighty six for the

2180
01:55:26,800 --> 01:55:29,360
Speaker 4: last license year, which is a little more than the

2181
01:55:29,440 --> 01:55:32,360
Speaker 4: year before. But we've had years where there's been three hundred.

2182
01:55:33,000 --> 01:55:38,560
Speaker 4: The population isn't changing a lot. But on the other hand,

2183
01:55:38,680 --> 01:55:43,000
Speaker 4: using the method they used to estimate wolf populations through palm,

2184
01:55:44,160 --> 01:55:51,320
Speaker 4: I think patch occupancy model, it's an integrated patchcy model.

2185
01:55:51,840 --> 01:55:57,040
Speaker 4: Occupancy models are designed to estimate occupancy where they are.

2186
01:55:57,200 --> 01:56:00,920
Speaker 4: They're not designed to estimate abundance or numbers, so they're

2187
01:56:01,000 --> 01:56:04,440
Speaker 4: using a model for not what is designed to do.

2188
01:56:04,600 --> 01:56:06,840
Speaker 4: So I don't know that it's a real good representative.

2189
01:56:06,840 --> 01:56:09,320
Speaker 4: What I would say is I'm sorry, no go ahead.

2190
01:56:09,400 --> 01:56:12,240
Speaker 4: There's other factors to look at, like go to the

2191
01:56:12,280 --> 01:56:16,920
Speaker 4: Livestock Loss Board website. It's public information for Montana or

2192
01:56:16,960 --> 01:56:19,960
Speaker 4: any agency or the USDA, you know, Wildlife services, and

2193
01:56:20,000 --> 01:56:24,680
Speaker 4: you can look at the number of livestock losses by predator.

2194
01:56:24,760 --> 01:56:27,600
Speaker 4: They list them by predator or by death cause, and

2195
01:56:27,640 --> 01:56:31,920
Speaker 4: you will see, especially in Montana, the number of livestock

2196
01:56:32,160 --> 01:56:36,480
Speaker 4: depredations in Montana is getting was less in twenty twenty

2197
01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:39,680
Speaker 4: three than it was for the previous years. The number

2198
01:56:39,720 --> 01:56:42,680
Speaker 4: of complaints was less, the number of wolves taken for

2199
01:56:42,760 --> 01:56:46,760
Speaker 4: killing livestock was less. If there are wolves on the

2200
01:56:46,840 --> 01:56:51,480
Speaker 4: landscape Montana and there's livestock, they will kill them occasionally.

2201
01:56:51,560 --> 01:56:54,800
Speaker 4: So I would say these other indices should be incorporated

2202
01:56:55,160 --> 01:56:58,600
Speaker 4: into the model because I think when you see less

2203
01:56:58,600 --> 01:57:02,280
Speaker 4: and less and less depredation, it's because there's less wolves.

2204
01:57:02,360 --> 01:57:04,960
Speaker 4: Even though people are killed more this year, and if

2205
01:57:04,960 --> 01:57:09,000
Speaker 4: you look at the percentage statistically, it's probably not real significant.

2206
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:11,680
Speaker 4: But maybe more people were out hunting last year to

2207
01:57:11,800 --> 01:57:13,760
Speaker 4: hind kill wolves because it was a milder winter. We

2208
01:57:13,800 --> 01:57:14,880
Speaker 4: don't know, We can't.

2209
01:57:14,960 --> 01:57:17,200
Speaker 5: Did you say it was to eighty six that were

2210
01:57:17,280 --> 01:57:19,400
Speaker 5: killed or it was two eighty six was the quota.

2211
01:57:19,680 --> 01:57:23,400
Speaker 4: No, that was what was killed between shooting and trapping. Yeah,

2212
01:57:23,480 --> 01:57:25,120
Speaker 4: I think that's the current number. You can look it

2213
01:57:25,240 --> 01:57:29,000
Speaker 4: up and it just that was just released. But there's

2214
01:57:29,040 --> 01:57:31,000
Speaker 4: many things to look at. But what I can say

2215
01:57:31,080 --> 01:57:36,480
Speaker 4: is there's there's adequate wolves, and I'd say there's adequate prey.

2216
01:57:36,520 --> 01:57:39,240
Speaker 4: And I was looking, did you see that chidge who

2217
01:57:39,400 --> 01:57:45,880
Speaker 4: Just in Fergus County near Lewistown, several several large landowners

2218
01:57:45,920 --> 01:57:51,080
Speaker 4: got together and wanted the state to kill fifty thousand

2219
01:57:51,720 --> 01:57:57,360
Speaker 4: elk because the elk are taking over the private large

2220
01:57:57,440 --> 01:58:01,600
Speaker 4: landowner's habitat and they don't allow people to come in

2221
01:58:01,600 --> 01:58:03,560
Speaker 4: and shoot them. So they're all these elk and they

2222
01:58:03,600 --> 01:58:07,120
Speaker 4: wanted to have this power to kill fifty thousand elk

2223
01:58:07,280 --> 01:58:09,680
Speaker 4: extra outside of normal hunting season.

2224
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:11,280
Speaker 1: Fifty thousand five.

2225
01:58:11,840 --> 01:58:14,480
Speaker 5: That was that United Property Owners thing.

2226
01:58:14,440 --> 01:58:17,880
Speaker 7: Right back, BHA YAH and BHA.

2227
01:58:17,520 --> 01:58:21,600
Speaker 4: And Montana Sportsman's Alliance and all these hunting groups said no,

2228
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:26,240
Speaker 4: you have to create access. And I think if people

2229
01:58:26,280 --> 01:58:28,480
Speaker 4: are really concerned about elk numbers, because if you look

2230
01:58:28,520 --> 01:58:30,880
Speaker 4: at the tables the statistics, there are more elk in

2231
01:58:30,920 --> 01:58:33,000
Speaker 4: Montana now then there's been in a long time. And

2232
01:58:33,040 --> 01:58:36,160
Speaker 4: in Wyoming they're issuing unlimited number of elk takes in

2233
01:58:36,160 --> 01:58:39,440
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, I believe, or twenty twenty four. It

2234
01:58:39,480 --> 01:58:42,200
Speaker 4: seems from my perspective, you would know more you guys

2235
01:58:42,280 --> 01:58:44,640
Speaker 4: deal with your hunting company. It seems to be more

2236
01:58:44,640 --> 01:58:47,760
Speaker 4: of an access issue than it does a predator issue.

2237
01:58:47,800 --> 01:58:51,160
Speaker 4: And if I were a hunting big part of a

2238
01:58:51,240 --> 01:58:54,440
Speaker 4: hunting conservation promotion group, I would be working on the

2239
01:58:54,520 --> 01:58:58,920
Speaker 4: access issue more and working with our legislators more and

2240
01:58:58,960 --> 01:59:03,480
Speaker 4: our governors more. Know you know what these rich out

2241
01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:05,600
Speaker 4: of state guys or whoever own these ranches said, they're

2242
01:59:05,600 --> 01:59:07,720
Speaker 4: not letting us on. I would I would be really

2243
01:59:07,720 --> 01:59:10,200
Speaker 4: concerned about it. What do you guys feel about that?

2244
01:59:10,320 --> 01:59:12,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's the in some areas that's

2245
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 1: the biggest conversation around elk numbers is you have just

2246
01:59:20,160 --> 01:59:24,600
Speaker 1: you have elk that are learning over time. Elk are

2247
01:59:24,680 --> 01:59:28,839
Speaker 1: learning safe zones. There are big acreages where hunting's not allowed,

2248
01:59:29,360 --> 01:59:34,720
Speaker 1: and there are big acreages where people have an objective

2249
01:59:34,760 --> 01:59:38,480
Speaker 1: of getting a couple of big bulls and they don't

2250
01:59:38,520 --> 01:59:40,720
Speaker 1: want something to mess up those big bulls. They don't

2251
01:59:40,760 --> 01:59:44,040
Speaker 1: want people to push them off. They kind of like

2252
01:59:44,120 --> 01:59:46,320
Speaker 1: them during hunting season. They don't like them when they're

2253
01:59:46,320 --> 01:59:50,920
Speaker 1: doing crop damage, and they're reluctant to have Joe Blow

2254
01:59:52,840 --> 01:59:56,720
Speaker 1: running around on their place. And they kind of want

2255
01:59:56,720 --> 02:00:01,240
Speaker 1: the best of both worlds. They want they want individual access,

2256
02:00:01,320 --> 02:00:04,080
Speaker 1: then they want state help. And what they don't want

2257
02:00:04,160 --> 02:00:08,840
Speaker 1: is a sign saying come one call right.

2258
02:00:09,360 --> 02:00:10,360
Speaker 4: They need more wolves.

2259
02:00:10,760 --> 02:00:13,040
Speaker 7: Just kidding, I'm just kidding on that.

2260
02:00:14,480 --> 02:00:19,320
Speaker 4: But you see the problem again, it's always humans. But

2261
02:00:19,680 --> 02:00:23,920
Speaker 4: if you look at the species keep responsible for killing

2262
02:00:24,000 --> 02:00:27,400
Speaker 4: sheep and cattle, it's number one. Grizzly bears kill almost

2263
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:31,520
Speaker 4: three times as many livestock animals as both lions and wolves,

2264
02:00:31,920 --> 02:00:35,000
Speaker 4: and lions generally kill a few more than wolves, but

2265
02:00:35,040 --> 02:00:36,880
Speaker 4: it's hard to confirm totally.

2266
02:00:36,560 --> 02:00:39,560
Speaker 1: Because lions kill more livestock than wolves.

2267
02:00:39,960 --> 02:00:42,280
Speaker 4: The confirmed kills. The hard thing is when a wolf

2268
02:00:42,360 --> 02:00:45,400
Speaker 4: kills a cattle or a calf or whatever, there's six

2269
02:00:45,480 --> 02:00:47,120
Speaker 4: or eight them feeding on it, so there's often not

2270
02:00:47,360 --> 02:00:51,200
Speaker 4: enough evidence less to determine which predator responsible. So there's

2271
02:00:51,240 --> 02:00:54,720
Speaker 4: a lot more probables for wolves than there are lions,

2272
02:00:54,840 --> 02:00:56,920
Speaker 4: but confirmed it's more lions and wolves.

2273
02:00:58,640 --> 02:01:01,800
Speaker 1: Where you got wolves and mountain lion overlapping, what's killing most.

2274
02:01:01,600 --> 02:01:04,760
Speaker 4: Of the game lions. Do you look at the Bitter

2275
02:01:04,800 --> 02:01:08,160
Speaker 4: at Elk study. Yeah, so it's surprising to me. So

2276
02:01:08,200 --> 02:01:11,280
Speaker 4: there's been three studies that Fish, Wildlife and Parks has done.

2277
02:01:11,320 --> 02:01:14,400
Speaker 4: And this is an agency that's not real pro wolf, right,

2278
02:01:14,520 --> 02:01:17,000
Speaker 4: let's just say so, they do these studies. And when

2279
02:01:17,000 --> 02:01:21,200
Speaker 4: I was looking at the research study plan and the results,

2280
02:01:21,240 --> 02:01:24,160
Speaker 4: I was shocked because I thought wolves would be the

2281
02:01:24,200 --> 02:01:27,160
Speaker 4: primary predator. But you can go on the FWP website

2282
02:01:27,480 --> 02:01:30,879
Speaker 4: google the data. They did three studies that were long term,

2283
02:01:31,000 --> 02:01:34,160
Speaker 4: multi region studies, one for moose, one for mule deer,

2284
02:01:34,600 --> 02:01:37,040
Speaker 4: and one for elk. And they looked at the populations

2285
02:01:37,080 --> 02:01:40,680
Speaker 4: of this the game animals three different areas over multiple years,

2286
02:01:40,680 --> 02:01:42,320
Speaker 4: and they put a lot of callers out and they

2287
02:01:42,400 --> 02:01:46,560
Speaker 4: looked at mortality. So and the bitter at Elk study,

2288
02:01:46,680 --> 02:01:49,960
Speaker 4: probably all familiar lions killed more. And when they increased

2289
02:01:50,000 --> 02:01:53,120
Speaker 4: the harvest on black bears and wolves lions still.

2290
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:56,480
Speaker 7: That had no effect.

2291
02:01:56,520 --> 02:01:58,720
Speaker 4: And the more they were just lions killing everything.

2292
02:01:58,720 --> 02:02:01,080
Speaker 1: They thought the same thing in Idaho. Wives your way out.

2293
02:02:00,960 --> 02:02:03,240
Speaker 4: Killing wolves, yes, and when So when they did the

2294
02:02:03,280 --> 02:02:05,600
Speaker 4: moose study, what do you think the number one killer

2295
02:02:05,640 --> 02:02:07,800
Speaker 4: of moose was it was grompy.

2296
02:02:07,840 --> 02:02:09,240
Speaker 2: What you think lions?

2297
02:02:09,680 --> 02:02:12,800
Speaker 5: No, black, No, it was tis.

2298
02:02:14,280 --> 02:02:18,240
Speaker 4: It was climate and habitat exactly they killed like it

2299
02:02:18,280 --> 02:02:21,280
Speaker 4: was fifty six percent of the most mortalities documented. The

2300
02:02:21,360 --> 02:02:25,960
Speaker 4: rerelated to climate. That would be ticks, uh, mostly probably

2301
02:02:25,960 --> 02:02:29,800
Speaker 4: ticks and things related. Predation was a very small section

2302
02:02:29,880 --> 02:02:33,320
Speaker 4: of the pie, and I was surprised of the predation section.

2303
02:02:33,840 --> 02:02:36,720
Speaker 4: So you beans killed almost the same percentage almost as

2304
02:02:36,760 --> 02:02:39,720
Speaker 4: the predators a little less of the predation section. It

2305
02:02:39,760 --> 02:02:43,480
Speaker 4: was wolves first, I think bear a second, lions there,

2306
02:02:43,480 --> 02:02:48,000
Speaker 4: but wolves was slightly more. But yeah, the environment changing.

2307
02:02:47,680 --> 02:02:51,240
Speaker 1: The habitat Milder's got way lions was lions.

2308
02:02:51,320 --> 02:02:53,760
Speaker 4: So why do people want to keep increasing.

2309
02:02:53,400 --> 02:02:56,520
Speaker 1: Wolf because the lions were because the lions were always here.

2310
02:02:56,960 --> 02:02:58,480
Speaker 1: That was kind of the thing that we talked about

2311
02:02:58,520 --> 02:03:01,640
Speaker 1: with Idaho. Is you had you had? I don't. I'm

2312
02:03:01,640 --> 02:03:03,560
Speaker 1: gonna butcher not. These are not the right numbers, but

2313
02:03:03,600 --> 02:03:08,080
Speaker 1: it paints a somewhat accurate portrait. It'd be like prior

2314
02:03:08,160 --> 02:03:12,480
Speaker 1: to wolves coming into the Idaho Panhandle. I don't. Again,

2315
02:03:12,480 --> 02:03:14,879
Speaker 1: this is not the exact number, but it's not crazy.

2316
02:03:14,920 --> 02:03:18,560
Speaker 1: It'd be that lines are killing thirty out of one

2317
02:03:18,640 --> 02:03:22,640
Speaker 1: hundred elk calves. Let's say, yeah, okay, something like that.

2318
02:03:23,880 --> 02:03:27,400
Speaker 1: But that had always been true, and everything about elk

2319
02:03:27,440 --> 02:03:31,440
Speaker 1: abundance and everything about what like what statically normal, right,

2320
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:35,120
Speaker 1: just normal life that was going on, and then something

2321
02:03:35,160 --> 02:03:40,720
Speaker 1: comes in and it adds ten. Okay, So now forty

2322
02:03:40,760 --> 02:03:43,720
Speaker 1: out of one hundred elk calves are dying from predation

2323
02:03:44,840 --> 02:03:49,600
Speaker 1: because there's this new additive thing, and socially and otherwise

2324
02:03:49,600 --> 02:03:52,720
Speaker 1: with the population, it winds up being that ten percent

2325
02:03:53,800 --> 02:03:56,680
Speaker 1: tips of balance that we'd become used to. And so

2326
02:03:56,880 --> 02:03:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, people had seen it's always been normal, yeah,

2327
02:04:00,040 --> 02:04:03,000
Speaker 1: and then now it's not normal no more. What happened different?

2328
02:04:03,480 --> 02:04:07,080
Speaker 1: This new thing that the baseline had always burned? Right,

2329
02:04:07,120 --> 02:04:10,200
Speaker 1: You'd always lost those thirty yepp and you had an

2330
02:04:10,200 --> 02:04:13,240
Speaker 1: elk population that reflected that level of predation, and all

2331
02:04:13,240 --> 02:04:15,320
Speaker 1: of a sudden, now you have an elk population that

2332
02:04:15,360 --> 02:04:18,080
Speaker 1: doesn't reflect that. It reflects something new, and it's going

2333
02:04:18,160 --> 02:04:18,640
Speaker 1: to be lower.

2334
02:04:18,800 --> 02:04:21,640
Speaker 4: So you're saying, all the wolf coming back is the additive,

2335
02:04:21,720 --> 02:04:23,640
Speaker 4: none of its compensatory mortality.

2336
02:04:24,760 --> 02:04:27,400
Speaker 1: Man, I know the terms you're using, but I can't

2337
02:04:27,440 --> 02:04:27,880
Speaker 1: answer that.

2338
02:04:28,240 --> 02:04:33,360
Speaker 4: So you're not seeing lion populations diminishing down to twenty

2339
02:04:33,360 --> 02:04:36,400
Speaker 4: percent of the elk caves say instead that the oh

2340
02:04:36,840 --> 02:04:39,600
Speaker 4: that the wolves are now taking ten percent that the

2341
02:04:39,720 --> 02:04:40,520
Speaker 4: lions would.

2342
02:04:40,360 --> 02:04:43,040
Speaker 1: Take it must have been additive, because how else can

2343
02:04:43,080 --> 02:04:45,200
Speaker 1: you explain the map. I mean, like, this is the

2344
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:48,800
Speaker 1: thing that that people have to accept, Like the really

2345
02:04:48,840 --> 02:04:51,360
Speaker 1: pro wolf people have to accept that this is true.

2346
02:04:51,360 --> 02:04:53,360
Speaker 1: And when they're when they're kind of being honest, they

2347
02:04:53,400 --> 02:04:58,480
Speaker 1: acknowledge it. Meaning on one hand, they like think hunters

2348
02:04:59,520 --> 02:05:01,880
Speaker 1: blow it out, everything out of proportion, and hunters are like, oh,

2349
02:05:01,920 --> 02:05:03,760
Speaker 1: we're gonna lose all of our dear and l right,

2350
02:05:04,040 --> 02:05:06,600
Speaker 1: and they criticize hunters for that. At the same time,

2351
02:05:06,600 --> 02:05:10,760
Speaker 1: they'll say, oh, if CWD is from having two dens

2352
02:05:10,800 --> 02:05:14,280
Speaker 1: of populations, wolves will help. And you're like, well, I

2353
02:05:14,280 --> 02:05:16,600
Speaker 1: thought that you're saying that hunters are wrong and that

2354
02:05:16,680 --> 02:05:19,040
Speaker 1: wolves don't lower game numbers. Now you're saying they do.

2355
02:05:19,800 --> 02:05:24,360
Speaker 1: Or they'll say deer and elk are over browsing, right,

2356
02:05:25,560 --> 02:05:27,760
Speaker 1: wolves will help. It's like, homet let's back up, because

2357
02:05:27,840 --> 02:05:30,680
Speaker 1: earlier you told me it doesn't matter the ways, that

2358
02:05:30,760 --> 02:05:32,960
Speaker 1: doesn't matter for deering out numbers, so it does matter

2359
02:05:33,000 --> 02:05:36,880
Speaker 1: for deering out numbers. Right. It's like you can't argue,

2360
02:05:36,960 --> 02:05:39,200
Speaker 1: and you know this better than me, but you can't argue.

2361
02:05:39,240 --> 02:05:42,800
Speaker 1: Like in the Greater Yellstone ecosystem, when wolves came in

2362
02:05:42,800 --> 02:05:46,040
Speaker 1: in the mid nineties, there's no other word for it.

2363
02:05:46,080 --> 02:05:47,200
Speaker 1: Elk numbers collapsed.

2364
02:05:47,280 --> 02:05:48,040
Speaker 4: They collapsed.

2365
02:05:48,080 --> 02:05:48,680
Speaker 3: But and the.

2366
02:05:48,640 --> 02:05:51,600
Speaker 1: Panhandle Idaho elk numbers just like there's no other word

2367
02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:53,320
Speaker 1: for what happened. They collapsed.

2368
02:05:53,480 --> 02:05:55,600
Speaker 4: But do you know about the winters that the wolves

2369
02:05:55,600 --> 02:05:58,680
Speaker 4: came into. Idoh is the heaviest winters ever recorded. The

2370
02:05:59,120 --> 02:06:02,560
Speaker 4: wolves came into Yells and twenty thousand elk on the

2371
02:06:02,560 --> 02:06:05,560
Speaker 4: northern range of Lamar is not a normal range of

2372
02:06:05,800 --> 02:06:08,480
Speaker 4: numbers of animals that should be there anyway.

2373
02:06:08,680 --> 02:06:09,800
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean you know all that.

2374
02:06:10,080 --> 02:06:12,160
Speaker 4: I think we talked about this last time. But the

2375
02:06:12,200 --> 02:06:14,920
Speaker 4: winters of ninety six ninety seven, that was the second

2376
02:06:14,920 --> 02:06:18,320
Speaker 4: winter they put in. I thought that you can sit there,

2377
02:06:18,360 --> 02:06:20,840
Speaker 4: maybe you can, but tell me that thirty wolves are

2378
02:06:20,880 --> 02:06:22,080
Speaker 4: going to kill ten thousand outs.

2379
02:06:22,240 --> 02:06:24,320
Speaker 1: No, it wasn't. I don't think that it was. I

2380
02:06:24,320 --> 02:06:26,200
Speaker 1: think that it was very long term. Yeah it was.

2381
02:06:26,440 --> 02:06:28,160
Speaker 1: It wasn't that year. It wasn't like the ones they

2382
02:06:28,160 --> 02:06:30,600
Speaker 1: brought in. Yeah, yeah, I mean, but correct me if

2383
02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:32,880
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. Like you know it better than me. But

2384
02:06:33,440 --> 02:06:36,360
Speaker 1: is it not fair? Is it not fair to say that,

2385
02:06:36,440 --> 02:06:37,920
Speaker 1: let's talk about the Idaho Panhandle.

2386
02:06:38,040 --> 02:06:39,680
Speaker 4: I don't know about the idol Pana. I can talk

2387
02:06:39,720 --> 02:06:41,000
Speaker 4: about the lamar pretty.

2388
02:06:40,800 --> 02:06:43,440
Speaker 1: Good, Okay. Wherever the lamar.

2389
02:06:43,240 --> 02:06:45,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yellowstone, Northern Herd.

2390
02:06:46,120 --> 02:06:52,400
Speaker 1: Okay, bad winners or not? I mean, come on, that

2391
02:06:52,520 --> 02:06:57,120
Speaker 1: had unless I'm wrong, that had the incoming wolves and

2392
02:06:57,120 --> 02:07:00,640
Speaker 1: the expansion of wolf populations. Elk had a big change

2393
02:07:00,640 --> 02:07:03,640
Speaker 1: on elk because that's also if we remember, we're all

2394
02:07:03,680 --> 02:07:06,920
Speaker 1: supposed to celebrate them for bringing the beavers back, which

2395
02:07:06,960 --> 02:07:09,720
Speaker 1: has now been walked back and not true. So it

2396
02:07:09,840 --> 02:07:12,120
Speaker 1: did something to elk, right.

2397
02:07:12,000 --> 02:07:13,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you could pull up the table. But the elk,

2398
02:07:13,920 --> 02:07:16,840
Speaker 4: the alk numbers fell off really fast in that hard winter.

2399
02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:21,040
Speaker 4: And like in Montana in ninety six ninety seven, Carolyn

2400
02:07:21,120 --> 02:07:23,600
Speaker 4: sim was doing white tail deer study in northwest Montana

2401
02:07:24,040 --> 02:07:27,000
Speaker 4: and forty percent of the white tail died win or

2402
02:07:27,040 --> 02:07:29,520
Speaker 4: die off and had nothing to do without Okay. So

2403
02:07:29,720 --> 02:07:33,120
Speaker 4: I'm just saying with wolves.

2404
02:07:32,520 --> 02:07:34,840
Speaker 5: It couldn't like And in the case of the bitter,

2405
02:07:35,000 --> 02:07:37,520
Speaker 5: the way someone described it to me, I can't remember

2406
02:07:37,560 --> 02:07:41,480
Speaker 5: who was Like the elk, there could sustain like some

2407
02:07:41,680 --> 02:07:47,200
Speaker 5: certain level of predation and maintain a certain r number.

2408
02:07:47,600 --> 02:07:50,640
Speaker 5: But when you put it the wolf on top of it,

2409
02:07:50,760 --> 02:07:53,960
Speaker 5: that was like just enough to be a tipping point

2410
02:07:54,000 --> 02:07:54,680
Speaker 5: to push.

2411
02:07:54,440 --> 02:07:56,520
Speaker 4: Them over the edge or push them on a private

2412
02:07:56,560 --> 02:07:58,920
Speaker 4: land where people don't allow them. You're hunted. That's what's

2413
02:07:58,920 --> 02:07:59,360
Speaker 4: happening in.

2414
02:07:59,360 --> 02:08:01,800
Speaker 5: The bitter But like in the case of like a

2415
02:08:01,840 --> 02:08:05,040
Speaker 5: bad winner, you stack wolves on top of that, maybe

2416
02:08:05,080 --> 02:08:08,600
Speaker 5: the elk, yeah could have you know what I mean,

2417
02:08:08,680 --> 02:08:11,560
Speaker 5: Like it's just one more thing they've got to deal with.

2418
02:08:11,680 --> 02:08:13,920
Speaker 4: So I mean, I just read the scientific literature and

2419
02:08:13,960 --> 02:08:17,800
Speaker 4: I'm a hunter too, But in Yellowstone there are so

2420
02:08:17,880 --> 02:08:21,080
Speaker 4: many factories. It's really I would say it's unfair to

2421
02:08:21,120 --> 02:08:23,720
Speaker 4: say one is to blame. It's a huge puzzle with

2422
02:08:23,880 --> 02:08:26,240
Speaker 4: many factors. And since the wolves come back, the olk

2423
02:08:26,320 --> 02:08:29,680
Speaker 4: numbers have definitely decreased. But I think they're actually had

2424
02:08:29,720 --> 02:08:31,800
Speaker 4: a better sustainable lever. I mean, do you know in

2425
02:08:31,840 --> 02:08:34,280
Speaker 4: the sixties they're in their gunning and killing elk because

2426
02:08:34,280 --> 02:08:36,120
Speaker 4: there were too many elk and there were not enough predators.

2427
02:08:36,280 --> 02:08:38,360
Speaker 4: They were shooting them like a thousand a year or whatever.

2428
02:08:38,640 --> 02:08:41,440
Speaker 4: They don't have to do that anymore. There's what six

2429
02:08:41,920 --> 02:08:44,640
Speaker 4: sixty five hundred elk in the northern herd now versus

2430
02:08:44,680 --> 02:08:47,800
Speaker 4: twenty thousand, and it's kind of stabilized at that. And

2431
02:08:47,840 --> 02:08:51,160
Speaker 4: the wolves have stabilized at about one hundred, and they've

2432
02:08:51,200 --> 02:08:53,880
Speaker 4: switched to bison. They a lot of their food value

2433
02:08:53,920 --> 02:08:57,920
Speaker 4: now is bison, which I must mind modeling me. I'm

2434
02:08:57,960 --> 02:09:00,480
Speaker 4: not saying they can't limiting. I'm just saying there's a

2435
02:09:00,560 --> 02:09:02,800
Speaker 4: lot of things going on, and I think the humans

2436
02:09:03,240 --> 02:09:05,080
Speaker 4: really got used. I've been on one of those late

2437
02:09:05,120 --> 02:09:06,200
Speaker 4: gardener hunts and.

2438
02:09:06,400 --> 02:09:08,720
Speaker 7: Oh my god, what is zoo in the eighties.

2439
02:09:09,040 --> 02:09:11,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, because there were too many elk they had to

2440
02:09:11,640 --> 02:09:13,320
Speaker 4: do that. Well, they don't do it anymore, and people

2441
02:09:13,320 --> 02:09:15,080
Speaker 4: are pissed off about it because I want to go

2442
02:09:15,120 --> 02:09:17,280
Speaker 4: down there and get my late gardener hunt. Well, that

2443
02:09:17,400 --> 02:09:20,280
Speaker 4: is not a sustainable population to have to have people

2444
02:09:20,280 --> 02:09:23,200
Speaker 4: go in and kill starving elk in February. I mean,

2445
02:09:24,120 --> 02:09:25,320
Speaker 4: we can look at it anywhere you want.

2446
02:09:25,320 --> 02:09:27,200
Speaker 1: Can we go back to our crystal ball in Colorado?

2447
02:09:27,280 --> 02:09:27,480
Speaker 4: Oh?

2448
02:09:27,560 --> 02:09:30,600
Speaker 1: God, yes, was it a twenty year? We were talking

2449
02:09:30,600 --> 02:09:32,720
Speaker 1: about ten ten twenty years. Okay, let me hit you

2450
02:09:32,800 --> 02:09:38,600
Speaker 1: with this. Yeah, let's say there are one hundred deer

2451
02:09:38,600 --> 02:09:42,640
Speaker 1: in elk in Colorado today? How many deer in elk

2452
02:09:42,680 --> 02:09:44,080
Speaker 1: are there in twenty years.

2453
02:09:46,080 --> 02:09:46,480
Speaker 4: Due too?

2454
02:09:47,480 --> 02:09:48,360
Speaker 1: Because of wolves?

2455
02:09:48,480 --> 02:09:49,480
Speaker 4: Oh, because of wolf.

2456
02:09:49,840 --> 02:09:51,920
Speaker 1: There's one hundred now, Yeah, one hundred deer elk are

2457
02:09:51,920 --> 02:09:54,240
Speaker 1: in Colorado now. And you do your twenty year crystal ball.

2458
02:09:54,280 --> 02:09:56,640
Speaker 1: Where has that population settled out?

2459
02:09:57,040 --> 02:09:59,800
Speaker 4: Eighty or ninety maybe might be one hundred. The other

2460
02:10:00,240 --> 02:10:04,240
Speaker 4: is people population. We keep growing in and building. Well,

2461
02:10:04,240 --> 02:10:06,560
Speaker 4: it is part of it because people build an elk

2462
02:10:06,600 --> 02:10:09,080
Speaker 4: winter range. Look at the Paradise Valley, for God's sakes,

2463
02:10:09,240 --> 02:10:11,040
Speaker 4: they've destroyed a lot of elk wind arrange where they

2464
02:10:11,040 --> 02:10:11,520
Speaker 4: elk used to doing.

2465
02:10:11,600 --> 02:10:14,240
Speaker 5: Well, that's where the wolves could do that tipping point there. Yeah,

2466
02:10:14,360 --> 02:10:18,720
Speaker 5: get because like Colorado's elk or like in places, their

2467
02:10:18,800 --> 02:10:22,400
Speaker 5: numbers are already crashing because of black bear predation and

2468
02:10:22,760 --> 02:10:25,680
Speaker 5: elk calves. And then you get like development of winter

2469
02:10:25,800 --> 02:10:29,800
Speaker 5: range and then a huge amount of recreation like hiking

2470
02:10:29,840 --> 02:10:33,120
Speaker 5: and biking, and then you throw wolves on top of that,

2471
02:10:33,160 --> 02:10:35,160
Speaker 5: and it's like you could look at it that way,

2472
02:10:36,640 --> 02:10:37,960
Speaker 5: you know what's going to happen.

2473
02:10:38,800 --> 02:10:41,280
Speaker 4: I just look at what's going on in Montana, where

2474
02:10:41,280 --> 02:10:43,640
Speaker 4: we had wolves for forty years. In Wyoming they've had

2475
02:10:43,640 --> 02:10:46,440
Speaker 4: wolves for years, and elk numbers are higher than they've

2476
02:10:46,480 --> 02:10:49,000
Speaker 4: ever been, So I don't know how. I mean, you

2477
02:10:49,040 --> 02:10:51,240
Speaker 4: could look at whatever end of the scale you want

2478
02:10:51,280 --> 02:10:52,680
Speaker 4: to look at. I'd like to kind of come to

2479
02:10:52,680 --> 02:10:55,600
Speaker 4: the middle. There'll be places where wolves can impact populations.

2480
02:10:55,920 --> 02:11:00,000
Speaker 4: Lions certainly have, bears have people have Because we're building

2481
02:11:00,000 --> 02:11:03,280
Speaker 4: holding up into habitat that is absolutely critical. For those

2482
02:11:03,320 --> 02:11:05,240
Speaker 4: on gillets in the winter, they don't have it anymore.

2483
02:11:06,040 --> 02:11:08,600
Speaker 4: So where do they go They become victims to prey

2484
02:11:08,640 --> 02:11:11,040
Speaker 4: animals or they get hit on the roadway. My god,

2485
02:11:11,160 --> 02:11:15,240
Speaker 4: driving down from Livingston to Gardner and the winters like

2486
02:11:15,280 --> 02:11:19,040
Speaker 4: slaloming through white tail and elk everywhere. It's awful. So

2487
02:11:19,800 --> 02:11:22,320
Speaker 4: we could pick whatever data set you want to use.

2488
02:11:22,880 --> 02:11:25,440
Speaker 4: But they've co existed long before we were ever in

2489
02:11:25,480 --> 02:11:28,320
Speaker 4: the landscape, That's all I'm going to say. And before

2490
02:11:28,440 --> 02:11:31,080
Speaker 4: when Lewis and Clark came to this country on the

2491
02:11:31,280 --> 02:11:34,240
Speaker 4: with the West, wolves a lot of wolves and grizzlies,

2492
02:11:34,320 --> 02:11:36,520
Speaker 4: and there was never more wildlife than there's ever been.

2493
02:11:36,640 --> 02:11:39,280
Speaker 4: Because we've changed everything and we have an expectation to

2494
02:11:39,280 --> 02:11:40,800
Speaker 4: have it perfect, you're never going to have that.

2495
02:11:40,880 --> 02:11:46,640
Speaker 1: When I when I encounter rapidly anti wolf people. Yeah, right, Yeah,

2496
02:11:47,400 --> 02:11:48,880
Speaker 1: and then they'll tell me how they want to go

2497
02:11:48,960 --> 02:11:51,600
Speaker 1: hunt in Alaska. Yeah, but you wouldn't like.

2498
02:11:51,600 --> 02:11:54,280
Speaker 6: It, buddy, because.

2499
02:11:54,120 --> 02:11:58,080
Speaker 1: Because it's ninety seven percent of historic wolf habitat is

2500
02:11:58,120 --> 02:12:00,720
Speaker 1: occupied by wolves, you wouldn't like it. There's no hunting

2501
02:12:00,760 --> 02:12:03,920
Speaker 1: there wolves. What's the hunt in Alaska?

2502
02:12:03,960 --> 02:12:05,080
Speaker 4: Does that what you tell them?

2503
02:12:05,160 --> 02:12:05,800
Speaker 9: Yeah?

2504
02:12:05,960 --> 02:12:06,520
Speaker 4: Is that true?

2505
02:12:06,680 --> 02:12:09,879
Speaker 1: No, of course it's not true. Okay, I'm demonstrating absurdity

2506
02:12:09,920 --> 02:12:12,440
Speaker 1: by being absurd. Thank you, Steve.

2507
02:12:12,560 --> 02:12:13,560
Speaker 7: I'm shocked. Okay.

2508
02:12:13,720 --> 02:12:15,160
Speaker 1: It's my favorite. I mean, I love it. It's my

2509
02:12:15,160 --> 02:12:17,520
Speaker 1: favorite place to go. But I'm just saying I point

2510
02:12:17,560 --> 02:12:20,520
Speaker 1: out to them, like, don't lay it on me that

2511
02:12:20,520 --> 02:12:24,000
Speaker 1: they're incompatible, because tell that to right, That's that everybody

2512
02:12:24,120 --> 02:12:25,880
Speaker 1: dreams of going on hunting Alaska. It's like, well, let

2513
02:12:25,920 --> 02:12:29,600
Speaker 1: me tell you something wolves while something moves there. A

2514
02:12:29,600 --> 02:12:31,400
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, we'd watched how many do we

2515
02:12:31,400 --> 02:12:35,760
Speaker 1: see one night? Fifteen pretty much every evening fifteen to

2516
02:12:35,760 --> 02:12:36,160
Speaker 1: come through.

2517
02:12:36,280 --> 02:12:36,680
Speaker 4: Wow.

2518
02:12:37,080 --> 02:12:40,240
Speaker 1: Right, So I'm just saying it that that perspective, and

2519
02:12:41,360 --> 02:12:45,120
Speaker 1: every time, like every time we talk about predators and

2520
02:12:45,120 --> 02:12:47,680
Speaker 1: every time we talk about wolves, I always feel the

2521
02:12:47,720 --> 02:12:52,240
Speaker 1: need to clarify like my perspective on it, I think

2522
02:12:52,280 --> 02:12:59,480
Speaker 1: it is. I think it's immoral to remove native species

2523
02:12:59,520 --> 02:13:02,480
Speaker 1: from native habitat. I just think it's like playing God

2524
02:13:03,320 --> 02:13:06,400
Speaker 1: in a way that, however you want to conceive of God,

2525
02:13:06,480 --> 02:13:08,120
Speaker 1: it's playing God in the way that God would not

2526
02:13:08,160 --> 02:13:12,240
Speaker 1: agree with. Right, It's like it's immoral, I think to

2527
02:13:12,920 --> 02:13:19,400
Speaker 1: eliminate species from Earth. I like seeing the tracks. I

2528
02:13:19,480 --> 02:13:23,520
Speaker 1: like hearing them. I like seeing them. I do not

2529
02:13:23,560 --> 02:13:27,640
Speaker 1: think they should be eradicated. I like to try to

2530
02:13:27,720 --> 02:13:33,640
Speaker 1: achieve a balance of holding a bunch of different people's

2531
02:13:33,680 --> 02:13:35,840
Speaker 1: interests in mind, because it's the only way we're going

2532
02:13:35,920 --> 02:13:38,960
Speaker 1: to survive and live as humans. I think that what

2533
02:13:39,320 --> 02:13:44,080
Speaker 1: as you said, I think that what's been achieved here

2534
02:13:45,560 --> 02:13:50,560
Speaker 1: in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. It's not perfect, but it's working,

2535
02:13:51,560 --> 02:13:54,840
Speaker 1: and I think you would alleviate a ton of the

2536
02:13:54,920 --> 02:13:58,320
Speaker 1: social stress in the Upper Great Lakes if they were

2537
02:13:58,360 --> 02:14:05,800
Speaker 1: allowed to pursue a similar path with regulated hunting. I

2538
02:14:05,800 --> 02:14:09,120
Speaker 1: don't know anybody when when wolves walked into Colorado, of

2539
02:14:09,160 --> 02:14:11,200
Speaker 1: the people I hang out with and associate with, and

2540
02:14:11,280 --> 02:14:13,960
Speaker 1: hunt with and talk with all the time, when wolves

2541
02:14:13,960 --> 02:14:17,360
Speaker 1: showed up in Colorado, I don't know anybody who said

2542
02:14:17,360 --> 02:14:20,240
Speaker 1: to me they ought to get down there with helicopters

2543
02:14:20,320 --> 02:14:22,240
Speaker 1: right now and find those wolves and kill them. No

2544
02:14:22,280 --> 02:14:27,640
Speaker 1: one said that to me, right h With the reintroduction,

2545
02:14:28,360 --> 02:14:30,920
Speaker 1: I've had people basically say that if they could do that,

2546
02:14:30,960 --> 02:14:33,120
Speaker 1: they would do that. It was like there's something about

2547
02:14:33,120 --> 02:14:36,600
Speaker 1: it that just burns people. Of course you don't want

2548
02:14:36,640 --> 02:14:38,000
Speaker 1: to there's something about it that they don't want to

2549
02:14:39,080 --> 02:14:40,960
Speaker 1: them because it's like it's like there's a way that

2550
02:14:41,000 --> 02:14:44,600
Speaker 1: we accept things that we perceive to be natural, and

2551
02:14:44,640 --> 02:14:47,320
Speaker 1: there's a way we accept people accept things that perceive

2552
02:14:47,440 --> 02:14:50,640
Speaker 1: to be something getting shoved down their throat, uh and

2553
02:14:50,840 --> 02:14:55,080
Speaker 1: wolves walking into Colorado. People kind of had a huh oh.

2554
02:14:55,120 --> 02:14:57,840
Speaker 2: They they had like a doctorate degree and pushing that

2555
02:14:57,880 --> 02:15:00,280
Speaker 2: ship down their throats down there. I couldn't believe when

2556
02:15:00,280 --> 02:15:03,120
Speaker 2: I read that stat of like Grant County is where

2557
02:15:03,160 --> 02:15:05,760
Speaker 2: they released the first group, right, and I think that

2558
02:15:05,840 --> 02:15:10,800
Speaker 2: was one of the few counties that overwhelmingly voted against it.

2559
02:15:10,800 --> 02:15:14,280
Speaker 2: It was like a sixties high sixties, maybe seventy percent

2560
02:15:14,360 --> 02:15:16,960
Speaker 2: against it, and that was the county they chose to

2561
02:15:17,760 --> 02:15:19,640
Speaker 2: here you go, But they couldn't.

2562
02:15:19,280 --> 02:15:21,000
Speaker 4: Reintroduce him into Boulder and Denver.

2563
02:15:21,320 --> 02:15:24,200
Speaker 2: I mean that's where the boat was while we're on

2564
02:15:24,320 --> 02:15:27,440
Speaker 2: Colorado again. I think it'd be great. It'd be great

2565
02:15:27,520 --> 02:15:31,800
Speaker 2: to get your thoughts, as you know, a biologist with

2566
02:15:31,840 --> 02:15:35,960
Speaker 2: so much experience on the ballot box biology that they're

2567
02:15:36,000 --> 02:15:40,320
Speaker 2: proposing down there, and just I guess in general, what

2568
02:15:40,360 --> 02:15:45,000
Speaker 2: your thoughts are on ballot box biology and if you

2569
02:15:45,040 --> 02:15:48,280
Speaker 2: think that's going to be a and even you can

2570
02:15:48,360 --> 02:15:51,800
Speaker 2: leave the Mountain lion ban alone, hunting band alone, but

2571
02:15:51,960 --> 02:15:54,200
Speaker 2: just in general that if you think that that works

2572
02:15:55,520 --> 02:15:57,920
Speaker 2: as a way to manage wildlife in our country, well.

2573
02:15:57,920 --> 02:16:00,840
Speaker 4: Obviously you feel strongly one way. That's a quite loaded question,

2574
02:16:00,960 --> 02:16:04,600
Speaker 4: but I the way you put it, I you'll read

2575
02:16:04,640 --> 02:16:05,080
Speaker 4: in my book.

2576
02:16:05,160 --> 02:16:08,240
Speaker 2: Well, the reason I'm interested is because I feel like

2577
02:16:08,280 --> 02:16:11,400
Speaker 2: you do sit in the middle and you connect with

2578
02:16:11,440 --> 02:16:13,760
Speaker 2: a lot of people that I would like to connect to,

2579
02:16:14,160 --> 02:16:16,520
Speaker 2: and I feel that we would probably land somewhere on

2580
02:16:16,560 --> 02:16:20,640
Speaker 2: the on the same end of the spectrum and want

2581
02:16:20,680 --> 02:16:23,080
Speaker 2: the same outcome. So I'd like to hear how you

2582
02:16:23,800 --> 02:16:25,040
Speaker 2: talk to people about this.

2583
02:16:25,280 --> 02:16:27,880
Speaker 4: So I I've never been in favor of wolf for

2584
02:16:27,920 --> 02:16:30,640
Speaker 4: introductions anywhere because they come back on their own and

2585
02:16:30,720 --> 02:16:33,640
Speaker 4: there I feel strongly we can never now test it

2586
02:16:33,680 --> 02:16:36,720
Speaker 4: because it's too late. But I feel strongly that there's

2587
02:16:36,760 --> 02:16:39,400
Speaker 4: a better social tolerance just what you're saying if they

2588
02:16:39,400 --> 02:16:41,320
Speaker 4: come back on their own, like they have done most

2589
02:16:41,360 --> 02:16:44,760
Speaker 4: places in the world and in the Midwest. But now

2590
02:16:44,800 --> 02:16:47,560
Speaker 4: that they're here, you can't go backwards. And wolves got

2591
02:16:47,560 --> 02:16:55,120
Speaker 4: to Oregon, Washington, Utah, Colorado, California, it's through dispersal, but

2592
02:16:55,200 --> 02:16:59,119
Speaker 4: they were dispersed animals from a reintroduced population, so they

2593
02:16:59,120 --> 02:17:02,840
Speaker 4: will never be thought is native either, which I think

2594
02:17:02,879 --> 02:17:06,879
Speaker 4: that's a shame. If we would have let natural recovery

2595
02:17:06,879 --> 02:17:08,959
Speaker 4: happens just like three you did in Montana, like it

2596
02:17:09,040 --> 02:17:12,480
Speaker 4: started doing Colorado, like it's done in the Midwest, I

2597
02:17:12,520 --> 02:17:14,760
Speaker 4: think we would be further ahead politically, but we'd have

2598
02:17:14,840 --> 02:17:17,800
Speaker 4: less wolves by this point in time. But how many

2599
02:17:17,840 --> 02:17:20,360
Speaker 4: years I mean, they were introduced those wolves almost twenty

2600
02:17:20,480 --> 02:17:23,480
Speaker 4: thirty years ago. Now would we be at the level

2601
02:17:23,480 --> 02:17:26,680
Speaker 4: we're at now? Probably pretty close, because once wolves hit

2602
02:17:26,720 --> 02:17:30,960
Speaker 4: critical mass, they take off without the social baggage. That's

2603
02:17:30,959 --> 02:17:33,920
Speaker 4: how I feel. You asked, That's how I feel, So

2604
02:17:34,040 --> 02:17:35,760
Speaker 4: I don't know if I answered your question or not.

2605
02:17:37,760 --> 02:17:43,360
Speaker 2: Well, I guess as someone that's worked with wolves, like

2606
02:17:44,080 --> 02:17:46,920
Speaker 2: did you like having in your toolbox. I don't know.

2607
02:17:47,000 --> 02:17:50,359
Speaker 2: Did you ever consider yourself a manager of wolves?

2608
02:17:50,440 --> 02:17:54,560
Speaker 4: I'm not, was never up at the top level I've managed.

2609
02:17:54,560 --> 02:17:57,480
Speaker 4: I've done some going out and putting out propane cannons

2610
02:17:57,520 --> 02:17:59,680
Speaker 4: and hanging flattery. Yeah, I've done some of that.

2611
02:18:00,680 --> 02:18:04,040
Speaker 2: But you advise people that sort of set management strategy.

2612
02:18:04,160 --> 02:18:07,760
Speaker 4: Yes, And I've come and asked to be a anonymous

2613
02:18:07,760 --> 02:18:09,560
Speaker 4: commentator on various federal plans.

2614
02:18:09,600 --> 02:18:12,320
Speaker 2: Yes. So is it nice to have in your toolbox

2615
02:18:13,879 --> 02:18:17,240
Speaker 2: hunting as a way to manage these animals?

2616
02:18:17,360 --> 02:18:19,280
Speaker 4: I think socially you have to have it. I'm not

2617
02:18:19,320 --> 02:18:22,920
Speaker 4: a wolf hunter. I have no desire to ever have

2618
02:18:23,000 --> 02:18:25,000
Speaker 4: to kill a wolf. I don't It's just not who

2619
02:18:25,000 --> 02:18:28,760
Speaker 4: I am. Is it a socially acceptable tool? Does it

2620
02:18:28,840 --> 02:18:33,560
Speaker 4: creation social tolerance? That's that's what people are pushing and believing,

2621
02:18:33,680 --> 02:18:39,800
Speaker 4: And I think with reintroductions that may be true. It's

2622
02:18:39,800 --> 02:18:41,640
Speaker 4: a tough one. Like I said, I don't want to

2623
02:18:41,680 --> 02:18:44,080
Speaker 4: shoot wolves, and I take lots of dead wolves on tailgates.

2624
02:18:44,080 --> 02:18:46,039
Speaker 4: When I was working for fishwallfe parks, they come in.

2625
02:18:46,080 --> 02:18:49,280
Speaker 4: I tagged lions and otters and martins and wolves, and

2626
02:18:49,320 --> 02:18:52,400
Speaker 4: I always ask the people the story how did you

2627
02:18:52,440 --> 02:18:54,200
Speaker 4: get the wolf? Tell me the story of how you

2628
02:18:54,280 --> 02:18:57,280
Speaker 4: hunted it. That made a difference to me when I

2629
02:18:57,320 --> 02:18:59,240
Speaker 4: looked at it dead wolves, a dead wolf. But when

2630
02:18:59,280 --> 02:19:01,640
Speaker 4: I heard some he said it was amazing. I had

2631
02:19:01,640 --> 02:19:03,879
Speaker 4: an Elk tagnose out and I heard the wolves howling,

2632
02:19:04,680 --> 02:19:06,880
Speaker 4: and this wolf walked out, and I thought, my god,

2633
02:19:06,920 --> 02:19:09,879
Speaker 4: that's a magnificent animal. I really want to I really

2634
02:19:09,879 --> 02:19:11,640
Speaker 4: want to have it. I want to have a pelt

2635
02:19:11,720 --> 02:19:15,000
Speaker 4: or whatever. I could understand that. And then people come

2636
02:19:15,040 --> 02:19:17,760
Speaker 4: and say, these hate, these bastards, we should shoot everyone

2637
02:19:17,760 --> 02:19:21,000
Speaker 4: them in the state. That really was difficult. And when

2638
02:19:21,040 --> 02:19:24,520
Speaker 4: I think of that kind of management that I feel

2639
02:19:25,200 --> 02:19:28,760
Speaker 4: doesn't do justice to us as hunters or biologists or

2640
02:19:28,800 --> 02:19:31,520
Speaker 4: to the wildlife itself. And I really think a big

2641
02:19:31,560 --> 02:19:35,240
Speaker 4: push we should have is working with the public on

2642
02:19:35,560 --> 02:19:39,440
Speaker 4: educating I hate that term, on exchanging ideas with people

2643
02:19:39,640 --> 02:19:42,080
Speaker 4: what wolves are and are not. I think there's not

2644
02:19:42,280 --> 02:19:46,480
Speaker 4: enough information out there for average person who wonders, well,

2645
02:19:46,480 --> 02:19:48,720
Speaker 4: how many yolk does a wolf coiller? Or are the

2646
02:19:48,800 --> 02:19:52,320
Speaker 4: impacting game? Put out all the information unbiased in a

2647
02:19:52,320 --> 02:19:54,320
Speaker 4: format that people can use. I don't care if it's

2648
02:19:54,560 --> 02:19:57,480
Speaker 4: a rock amount on Elk Foundation Google or Outdoor Life

2649
02:19:57,560 --> 02:20:01,120
Speaker 4: or whatever. Montana magazine put put it in a format

2650
02:20:01,640 --> 02:20:05,160
Speaker 4: that's available for people to read and understand. They better

2651
02:20:05,200 --> 02:20:05,879
Speaker 4: at ELK study.

2652
02:20:05,879 --> 02:20:06,240
Speaker 2: They did.

2653
02:20:06,280 --> 02:20:09,119
Speaker 4: They put quite a bit of information out, but that's

2654
02:20:09,160 --> 02:20:11,600
Speaker 4: fade ay. The wolves are still killing all the Elk.

2655
02:20:11,640 --> 02:20:13,080
Speaker 4: It's like, way, did you.

2656
02:20:13,040 --> 02:20:13,879
Speaker 5: Read the article?

2657
02:20:14,320 --> 02:20:17,920
Speaker 4: But people are biased because of their culture, so I

2658
02:20:18,040 --> 02:20:23,120
Speaker 4: but I just think enough information helps helps calm down

2659
02:20:23,160 --> 02:20:25,520
Speaker 4: the flames on both ends. I am a believer in that,

2660
02:20:25,640 --> 02:20:27,840
Speaker 4: and I hate the term edgy. I hate it say

2661
02:20:28,040 --> 02:20:29,959
Speaker 4: we need to educate so and so about that. It's like,

2662
02:20:30,320 --> 02:20:31,199
Speaker 4: oh God, can.

2663
02:20:31,080 --> 02:20:32,720
Speaker 1: We know what that means? That means I need to

2664
02:20:32,720 --> 02:20:33,840
Speaker 1: tell that person what I think.

2665
02:20:34,280 --> 02:20:39,680
Speaker 4: That's right, that's right, but to exchange information, that's what well,

2666
02:20:39,720 --> 02:20:41,000
Speaker 4: the public needs to be educated.

2667
02:20:41,120 --> 02:20:41,720
Speaker 7: No, I don't.

2668
02:20:41,760 --> 02:20:44,440
Speaker 4: I hate that term, and I heard agencies promote that

2669
02:20:44,480 --> 02:20:48,879
Speaker 4: all the time. But anyway, cuts of your book, my book,

2670
02:20:49,000 --> 02:20:57,680
Speaker 4: I want to hold it up, doctor Diane boy I'm

2671
02:20:57,720 --> 02:20:58,879
Speaker 4: teasing about randall.

2672
02:21:00,080 --> 02:21:01,240
Speaker 1: Have PhD written out there?

2673
02:21:01,680 --> 02:21:03,400
Speaker 4: Of course not, but it's in the back under the

2674
02:21:03,400 --> 02:21:05,959
Speaker 4: bio because I don't want I don't want people to

2675
02:21:06,040 --> 02:21:08,320
Speaker 4: see doctor Dian Boyd and not buy it because they

2676
02:21:08,440 --> 02:21:11,320
Speaker 4: their biases. They just see it's diyanboid. There you go,

2677
02:21:12,320 --> 02:21:13,840
Speaker 4: that's a bias. Definitely.

2678
02:21:13,920 --> 02:21:14,879
Speaker 1: They'd be like, oh.

2679
02:21:18,600 --> 02:21:18,960
Speaker 4: That one.

2680
02:21:19,360 --> 02:21:21,439
Speaker 1: They'd be like some Berkeley egg ahead.

2681
02:21:21,200 --> 02:21:25,520
Speaker 7: Telling me about please exactly, Diane K.

2682
02:21:25,720 --> 02:21:34,680
Speaker 1: Boyd not a doctor. There you go, she's a doctor

2683
02:21:34,720 --> 02:21:38,800
Speaker 1: back here, Yeah, Diane K. Boyd, a woman among wolves.

2684
02:21:38,800 --> 02:21:41,199
Speaker 1: My journey through forty years of wolf covery. I haven't

2685
02:21:41,200 --> 02:21:44,440
Speaker 1: read it. Uh, I will read it.

2686
02:21:44,480 --> 02:21:46,439
Speaker 4: I'll give you a personal copy.

2687
02:21:46,600 --> 02:21:50,040
Speaker 1: I will read it, read it and again.

2688
02:21:50,240 --> 02:21:50,480
Speaker 8: Uh.

2689
02:21:51,040 --> 02:21:54,039
Speaker 1: When we talked before and I loved it. It's so

2690
02:21:54,240 --> 02:21:59,440
Speaker 1: good to hear your perspective on these things. I think

2691
02:21:59,440 --> 02:22:02,160
Speaker 1: a lot of what you're saying, I think you're gonna

2692
02:22:03,000 --> 02:22:04,840
Speaker 1: what you're saying is going to be is going to

2693
02:22:04,879 --> 02:22:09,480
Speaker 1: be very challenging. Two people, no matter what how they

2694
02:22:09,480 --> 02:22:12,760
Speaker 1: look at wolves. You you offer a very challenging perspective

2695
02:22:13,320 --> 02:22:18,520
Speaker 1: because it doesn't fall in line. It doesn't fall in

2696
02:22:18,600 --> 02:22:23,760
Speaker 1: line with the narratives that you would get depending on

2697
02:22:23,800 --> 02:22:28,920
Speaker 1: your culture. It's like you're you're offering a really educated,

2698
02:22:30,640 --> 02:22:33,959
Speaker 1: nuanced view of things that have come from being in

2699
02:22:34,000 --> 02:22:36,440
Speaker 1: the room for a lot of discussions over the year.

2700
02:22:37,040 --> 02:22:40,880
Speaker 1: I'm not like, I can't say that you know. I

2701
02:22:41,120 --> 02:22:43,480
Speaker 1: can't say that someone would be able to go and

2702
02:22:43,520 --> 02:22:48,040
Speaker 1: determine that everything you've said is exactly true or right.

2703
02:22:48,080 --> 02:22:54,600
Speaker 1: But it's a challenging, like you're offering a challenging, pretty gracious,

2704
02:22:55,280 --> 02:22:58,960
Speaker 1: highly educated perspective on how to think about predators, and

2705
02:22:59,200 --> 02:23:01,400
Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming with us and doing that.

2706
02:23:01,720 --> 02:23:01,920
Speaker 4: Well.

2707
02:23:01,920 --> 02:23:02,160
Speaker 7: Thanks.

2708
02:23:02,480 --> 02:23:03,800
Speaker 1: Help people find your book and read it.

2709
02:23:04,160 --> 02:23:06,440
Speaker 4: Thanks. When I wrote it, I was not allowed to

2710
02:23:06,440 --> 02:23:09,760
Speaker 4: put in scientific references or footnotes. I have my list

2711
02:23:09,760 --> 02:23:12,200
Speaker 4: at the end of suggested readings. But I wrote it

2712
02:23:12,240 --> 02:23:14,120
Speaker 4: so that anybody can pick it up, whether you like

2713
02:23:14,160 --> 02:23:16,800
Speaker 4: wolves or don't like wolves, or don't care, regardless of

2714
02:23:16,840 --> 02:23:20,480
Speaker 4: your outdoor experience. Anybody can pick that up and get

2715
02:23:20,520 --> 02:23:24,760
Speaker 4: something from it. And I don't preach. I tell through

2716
02:23:24,800 --> 02:23:28,400
Speaker 4: stories and I wave science and let the reader come

2717
02:23:28,440 --> 02:23:31,400
Speaker 4: to their own conclusions about certain aspects of wolves being

2718
02:23:31,480 --> 02:23:34,560
Speaker 4: on the landscape. So it's a different kind of a book.

2719
02:23:34,560 --> 02:23:36,840
Speaker 4: And I lived it. I lived these wolves. This is

2720
02:23:36,920 --> 02:23:40,880
Speaker 4: my story, and then it morphs into present time in

2721
02:23:41,040 --> 02:23:42,640
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three. And if you just like a good

2722
02:23:42,640 --> 02:23:44,520
Speaker 4: adventure story, there's a lot of stories. I could read

2723
02:23:44,560 --> 02:23:47,240
Speaker 4: you a short thirty second paragraph if you want. Hell.

2724
02:23:47,320 --> 02:23:48,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's close with that.

2725
02:23:48,680 --> 02:23:50,279
Speaker 4: Close it the opening introduction.

2726
02:23:50,920 --> 02:23:52,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to close with this. So she's gonna

2727
02:23:52,920 --> 02:23:54,680
Speaker 1: get done. You're gonna go buy the book. We're just

2728
02:23:54,680 --> 02:23:56,480
Speaker 1: going to end the show. Phil's gonna turn the machine

2729
02:23:56,480 --> 02:23:57,840
Speaker 1: off when it's done. But this will give you a

2730
02:23:57,840 --> 02:23:59,960
Speaker 1: taste of how it's written, and I'm looking forward to it.

2731
02:24:00,040 --> 02:24:03,400
Speaker 4: This is probably thirty five years ago. My pickup banged

2732
02:24:03,440 --> 02:24:06,360
Speaker 4: and rattled along the potholed inside road in the northwest

2733
02:24:06,360 --> 02:24:09,680
Speaker 4: corner of Glacier National Park. Boxes of wolf trap and

2734
02:24:09,760 --> 02:24:12,360
Speaker 4: jars of bait slid across the truck bed. I was

2735
02:24:12,400 --> 02:24:14,680
Speaker 4: in a hurry, my mind focused on the wolf cotton

2736
02:24:14,680 --> 02:24:17,920
Speaker 4: a trap somewhere ahead in the Lodgepole Pine Forest. Out

2737
02:24:17,959 --> 02:24:20,600
Speaker 4: of the corner of my eye, I noticed motion in

2738
02:24:20,640 --> 02:24:23,440
Speaker 4: my rear view mirror. I looked up to catch the

2739
02:24:23,480 --> 02:24:26,920
Speaker 4: glassy reflection of vivid yellow eyes framed by a wolf's

2740
02:24:26,920 --> 02:24:29,880
Speaker 4: black face looking over my shoulder from the back seat.

2741
02:24:30,200 --> 02:24:37,800
Speaker 4: How did I get here? Opening paragraph, Diane, You you

2742
02:24:37,840 --> 02:24:41,000
Speaker 4: got to come back. Appreciate it, thank you, thank you.

2743
02:24:42,440 --> 02:24:42,720
Speaker 1: Honest.

2744
02:24:42,760 --> 02:24:48,880
Speaker 5: You got to keep your shoes on during this podcast,

2745
02:24:49,760 --> 02:24:50,920
Speaker 5: I'm still recorded.

2746
02:24:57,879 --> 02:25:12,080
Speaker 11: The koyas away wone shooting start with shut swell being

2747
02:25:12,560 --> 02:25:19,840
Speaker 11: sign of breakfast, and we laid down the bed it's

2748
02:25:19,920 --> 02:25:21,640
Speaker 11: been on day and nin.

2749
02:25:21,680 --> 02:25:32,320
Speaker 10: Windyll them cotting with trees lost step lesly every breeze.

2750
02:25:34,280 --> 02:25:37,080
Speaker 11: Master footsteps that I took.

2751
02:25:40,280 --> 02:25:40,440
Speaker 1: You on.

2752
02:25:40,760 --> 02:25:45,000
Speaker 2: The noise was wide like a live Brian.

2753
02:25:47,320 --> 02:25:50,400
Speaker 1: Learn more from namn trees before.

2754
02:25:50,160 --> 02:26:00,119
Speaker 9: Everybod than ever made shiver shoot swept.

2755
02:26:01,360 --> 02:26:02,840
Speaker 1: Waves up in.

2756
02:26:04,040 --> 02:26:12,320
Speaker 9: My reading up here. Sometimes you're burning up. Sometimes you're

2757
02:26:12,560 --> 02:26:17,840
Speaker 9: going with because you mean you're the fever.

2758
02:26:18,720 --> 02:26:24,200
Speaker 1: Ragon, don't you Mainer.

2759
02:26:23,920 --> 02:26:26,760
Speaker 9: The fur Bagon.

2760
02:26:43,680 --> 02:26:49,880
Speaker 12: Go on through the plain still called Basbley in greens.

2761
02:26:51,560 --> 02:26:54,759
Speaker 7: Gets there all out in them wield.

2762
02:26:56,800 --> 02:27:03,880
Speaker 9: You smileings the you rye all and your minds be surprised.

2763
02:27:05,600 --> 02:27:06,920
Speaker 2: That old river.

2764
02:27:07,160 --> 02:27:19,439
Speaker 12: Minyl fever makes you shiver, That fever makes you sweet, wakes.

2765
02:27:19,200 --> 02:27:28,360
Speaker 9: You up in babing permade of you. Sometimes you're burning up.

2766
02:27:28,600 --> 02:27:35,920
Speaker 9: Sometimes they're gold man with because you Mainer fever w

2767
02:27:38,959 --> 02:28:16,360
Speaker 9: only you anger the fer bging that fear macey shiver,

2768
02:28:17,400 --> 02:28:24,400
Speaker 9: that fere amazing sweat wis you have and min be

2769
02:28:24,720 --> 02:28:35,519
Speaker 9: pernain unjust. Sometimes you're burning up. Sometimes you're colding w because.

2770
02:28:35,240 --> 02:28:38,560
Speaker 1: You made yourr feeder cry.

2771
02:28:45,680 --> 02:28:57,600
Speaker 10: You may you may CA, You ain't time.

2772
02:28:59,800 --> 02:29:00,440
Speaker 8: You wait.

2773
02:29:00,800 --> 02:29:05,640
Speaker 9: Turded favor, domag wait fav