1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends, 2 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: welcome back to Work in Progress. This week we have 3 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: a guest who has been a sensation in the news 4 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: since the nineties, who lots of people think they know, 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: lots of people have opinions about, and I think in 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: recent years a lot of us are having to self 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: interrogate where those opinions come from and maybe just maybe 8 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: ask her who she is. Today we're joined by Monica Lewinsky. 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: She went to Washington at twenty two years old thinking 10 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: that she was chasing a dream opportunity and had no 11 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: way of knowing that she would become the center of 12 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: a frankly nightmarish national frenzy. Many of you know that 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: Monica engaged in an intimate relationship with the most powerful 14 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: man in the world that then exploded into relentless scrutiny 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: and judgment and public shaming, involving investigators, politician and a 16 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: voracious media that turned her life inside out. Every private moment, 17 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: even from second grade, was dissected, broadcast and weaponized, and 18 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: overnight she became the target of what might be the 19 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: first modern digital stoning. Her name synonymous with scandal and 20 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: debate across the nation. You may assume that you know 21 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: her full story or her intentions, and if you do, 22 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: you're probably an unknowing participant in the most successful public 23 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: shaming and scapegoating of a woman in our country's political history. 24 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: But what could have destroyed her became the foundation for 25 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: Monica's reinvention. She has turned trauma and healing from it 26 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: into a platform for examining power, consent, and the mechanics 27 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: of man made humiliation, reclaiming in narrative that the world 28 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: once tried to own, becoming a podcaster herself, an incredible 29 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: executive producer, and someone who is working to accurately tell 30 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: the stories of women, reveal who they are beneath the headlines. 31 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: Monica is a trailblazer. I've been lucky enough to be 32 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: a guest on her podcast, Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky, which 33 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: you can listen to wherever you get your podcasts, and 34 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: today I'm very fortunate that she's joining me here on 35 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: work in Progress. Let's dive in with Monica. Hi. 36 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: Hi, I'm just so excited that you're here. Oh, thank you. 37 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 2: I'm excited to be here. I enjoyed our chat before 38 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: so much and so any opportunity. I don't know if 39 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 2: you've found this, but I have found and having people 40 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: I know on the podcast, I get this concentrated time 41 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: of having a conversation. 42 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, that I feel like it's not us. 43 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: It's different than when we go to dinner or there 44 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: are other people around or whatever. 45 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, I agree, there's something really there's something really 46 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: special about the container of these conversations and the unbothered 47 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: or uninterrupted time because we're so connected now that you're 48 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: sort of always supposed to be doing five things, so 49 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: to do just one thing with one person as a. 50 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: Gift, Yeah, I had this fantasy. I think it was 51 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: might have been yesterday at some point where I was like, 52 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: what if I just said I no longer accept email, 53 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: Like that's my dream and people have to call me 54 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: and just like in the old in the old days, 55 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 2: we got things done because you were doing one thing 56 00:03:59,160 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: at a time. 57 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: Mm hm. 58 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: And you know, because there it is such I don't 59 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: know about for you, but I just get so overwhelmed. 60 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: I get so overwhelmed. 61 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: It's kind of like I think all these verticals of communication, 62 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: even though they're supposed to make us more connected, make 63 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: us feel so much more separated because it's constant interruption 64 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: rather than any one focused thing, which is part of 65 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: why I think we love our podcasts so much. It's 66 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: part of why I think we get so excited when 67 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: we get to be with another person. But the just 68 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: the management of inboxes, Yeah, it takes all your time 69 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: up and it also takes all your time away from 70 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: real connection, and it's confusing. 71 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 72 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I've started to feel like, Oh, my 73 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: a loser that I only have one phone. I think 74 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: everybody I know has two or three phones, and I 75 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: just I feel like, I. 76 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 3: Actually maybe I don't care. 77 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: I can't, I don't want to. I want to go 78 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: back to my old flip phone. I still have it, 79 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:08,679 Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm wonder if I could. 80 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: Just turn this thing back on, Yeah, come back with 81 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 2: baby Nokia right, what. 82 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: I would give? Well, my gosh, I'm so happy that 83 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: you're here. 84 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: You know. 85 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: Our conversation on your show was so fortifying for me. 86 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: Oh and I I know I told you this then, 87 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: but I think it's worth repeating, you know, for all 88 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: of our friends who are listening at home. I am 89 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: so deeply inspired by the person that you are, by 90 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: your resilience, by your willingness to give so much to 91 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: people and to do it with real vulnerability and real humility. 92 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: And also you strike me as a woman who's just 93 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: kind of run out of focks to give And I 94 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: love that about you. And I know from my own 95 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: versions of experience with public life, even when you run 96 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: out of them, there's still no way to be a 97 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: person who's been through what you've been through and not 98 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: feel so sensitive to the world. Yeah, and I think 99 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: I don't think. I know there are people who've chosen 100 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: to look deeper into your personhood, your story. I know 101 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people. I mean, I even talked 102 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: about this with some of the team at the big 103 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: media company that runs this podcast. For me, there were 104 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: women who were like, oh, we didn't even get it 105 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: till we were prepping this episode with you, that we 106 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: absolutely fall into the camp of the women who claim 107 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: to be feminists and who judged this woman, who mistook 108 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: this woman, who didn't think to look deeper at this woman. 109 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: As we've learned more about power and gender and all 110 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: these dynamics in the world, and there's how much we 111 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: have to talk about. But also I hate that you 112 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: always have to talk about it. So I want to 113 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: do something that has nothing to. 114 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 3: Do with any of this. 115 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: First, okay, in the spirit of your show, I want 116 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: to reclaim our space together and you together in a way, 117 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: and go way back in time before anybody knew anything 118 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: about you on the global stage. I know, through my 119 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: own journey of therapy, I think a lot about the 120 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: younger versions of myself that I carry with me. You know, 121 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: this woman, this author, Maggie Smith, who I love, has 122 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: this metaphor of nesting dolls, and I think about all 123 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: the younger versions of us and the little versions of 124 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: us that are inside of us always. I think a 125 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: lot about my eight year old self because of things 126 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: that were happening in my life at the time. And 127 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: I'm really curious if you and I could walk onto 128 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: a playground right now and run into our eight year 129 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: old selves. Oh my gosh, Yeah, what qualities would you 130 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: see in that little girl, in that version of yourself? 131 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: That would feel like an AHA moment for you, given 132 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: who you are as a woman today. 133 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 3: What an interesting question. 134 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 2: I guess the similarities that I would see are very sensitive, 135 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: I would understand. I think some of that sensitivity I 136 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: would understand now as having come from different kinds of trauma, 137 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 2: different ways, and so that the the eight year old 138 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: who was a people pleaser, who you know, struggle to 139 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 2: not be the best. And so I think I see 140 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 2: some of those parts there, and I'm probably still working 141 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: on that, not probably am still working on those versions. 142 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 3: But I also I, you know, it's weird. 143 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 2: I look back on my childhood, and iarents would probably 144 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: say something different. I look back on my childhood and 145 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: I feel like I was kind of a serious kid, 146 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: even though I like to have fun at times. You know, 147 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: there's a a heaviness there. I didn't and in some 148 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: ways still don't understand that. Maybe it's something I came 149 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: in with. Maybe it's not even really mine, you know, 150 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: in that way, but that there's I always cared about 151 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: other people, and I think I was very sensitive, as 152 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: I said, you know, but yeah, because wait. 153 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 3: Eight, is is that second grade? Eight? Second grade? 154 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 2: Yeah? 155 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: Around there, I think, or second or third grade? 156 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, So I think I I feel like I 157 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: look back now and there are these moments that, you know, 158 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 2: stand out of moment in first grade, I like the 159 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: first time I couldn't get the math answers and that frustration, 160 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: and I couldn't go see Carrie Burl's bunny, whom I 161 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: ran into randomly at the spot, like you know, within 162 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: the last six months, she looks exactly the same. So 163 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: but you know, it was like Friday Show and Tell 164 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: and she brought her bunny and I couldn't. You weren't 165 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 2: allowed to go to show and Tell until you finish 166 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 2: the thing. And so there's a very marked moment for 167 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: me of I think, not ever having struggled with anything 168 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: in school in first grade and that moment. And I 169 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: look back on that now and I sort of wonder, 170 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 2: you know, we just parenting and I'm not a parent, 171 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 2: but I think it's I see for my friends, it's 172 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,079 Speaker 2: so different now, right, So if I were parenting myself 173 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: today at that age, I would be looking at that 174 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: moment and. 175 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 3: Sort of going, what's going on? What's going on around 176 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 3: all this? 177 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: Right, I'm not really sure what I'm babbling about, but 178 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: you know that that was sort of little me. 179 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 3: And you know, they're they're definitely there. 180 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 2: I think there is a strong sense of resilience and 181 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: survival that came from early on, and as my therapist 182 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: will say, it serves me very well that I don't 183 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: give up in many places, and sometimes it's. 184 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 3: A little maladaptive. 185 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, and we have that in common. 186 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 3: I will make this relationship work, you know. 187 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 2: So. 188 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting you talk about it as a 189 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: heaviness that seems out of place for a young child, 190 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: because I feel a real kinship to that. You know, 191 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: I spent most of my childhood being told that I 192 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: was an old soul and always talking to adult, you know, 193 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: even when there were other kids around. And I think 194 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of great parts of that kind of identity. 195 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: I do find for me that as I look back 196 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 1: and look back at certain choices, and to your point, 197 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: look back at things I've tried to make work, even 198 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: when if I were looking at a friend, I'd be 199 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: like give it up, Like get out of there. That 200 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: thing or that person doesn't deserve you. I think there 201 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: is something common for those types of kids, whereas you 202 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:45,479 Speaker 1: get older, you really are seeking a safety or a stability, 203 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, you want to build a life. When I 204 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: think about some of the decisions I made, some of 205 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: the things I pursued, you know, in my early twenties, 206 00:12:53,960 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: I wanted to create something more stable than what I 207 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: came from, even though I came from looked very stable 208 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: on the surface, And I wonder if it's part of 209 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: what led me to early career success, which is great, 210 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: and also to early personal pain and humiliation which wasn't like. 211 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: It really is a double edged sword when you think 212 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: about that sense and the way you were learning resiliency 213 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: and to show up in a way so early. When 214 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: you look back at that little girl and think about 215 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: your evolution from second grade on through high school, would 216 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: you would you say that she was ambitious, confident, more shy. 217 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: Did you find validation in you know, scholastic success for example? 218 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: Like how how how does how does she seem to 219 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: you now from this like very healthy, grown up place. 220 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: I would say outgoing is probably the first word that 221 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: kind of comes to mind. 222 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 3: That it was. 223 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: I think I always wanted to be liked, but it 224 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 2: was also really important to me that people around me 225 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 2: felt included too. That was something that was important to 226 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: me from a young age. And I'm sort of still 227 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 2: that way because I think any anybody who's gone through 228 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,479 Speaker 2: and I've had this in every stage of my life, 229 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 2: that sense of. 230 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 3: Not feeling like you don't belong or aren't wanted. 231 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: It's so terrifying when you're a young person. You know, 232 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: it's I think, very early on from a primal point 233 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: of view, right, we won't survive if our parents, if 234 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: our parents don't love us, if our parents don't take 235 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: care of us, or someone some adult doesn't take care 236 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: of us, we will not survive. Will stop, right, And 237 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 2: so it begins there, and then it becomes more about 238 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: those social circles. And I think there's that sort of 239 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: the paradox of both being someone for whom those things 240 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 2: are important. It then means any kind of public shaming, 241 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: whether it's a small group of public shaming, or the 242 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: world is felt you know, infinitely deeper, you know, So 243 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: there's there's sort of that that mix there. I also, 244 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: I just want to jump back to what you were 245 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: saying before too. I just want I want to thank 246 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: you for your kind words. And I also want to 247 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 2: say that even having been at the center of a 248 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: gender global scandal with a lot of misogyny, I still 249 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: also too make that mistake of judging other women, or 250 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: judging other situations, or not seeing something fully. So even 251 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 2: going through it doesn't necessarily inoculate you from I think 252 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: a lot of the culture or whatever those things are. 253 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm also step yeah yeah. 254 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make this 255 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: show possible. Listen. I think we're human. Humans are inherently fallible. 256 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: We make mistakes. 257 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: You know. 258 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: It's why they say hindsight's twenty twenty, right. You got 259 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: to look back and see the mistakes you were making 260 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: in the moment. You're having emotional and physical and psychosocial experiences, 261 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: and they just happen. I think what's really important, and 262 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: you just said it is even the ability when you're 263 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: in the midst of a moment, when you're forming thoughts, judgments, opinions, 264 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: just the ability to go, oh, wait a second, where 265 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: did that come from? 266 00:16:58,760 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? 267 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: Or the ability to look back and go wow, you know, 268 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: I had an opinion about this thing ten years ago, 269 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 1: and it's different now based on this information that I 270 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: now have. I think that's kind of the best we 271 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: can do. I don't think anyone ever becomes some sort 272 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: of perfect, like non judgmental ball of light, like then 273 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: you're in the place wherever your soul goes after you die. 274 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: I think I don't think it's not here. 275 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 2: On the other dimensions, it's not here, but no, yeah, 276 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 2: it's it is. I think there's you know, And I 277 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 2: also think it's important if people feel comfortable. But people 278 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: who were in the public eye, who have some sort 279 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 2: of a public platform, it's important to talk about those moments, 280 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: you know, because I think it allows other people to 281 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 2: you you were reaching a lot of people at once 282 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 2: with something for them to consider, you know. I until, 283 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 2: like my experiences in ninety eight, just a lot of 284 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: women who went through things who then posed in a 285 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 2: magazine like Playboy or Penhouse or Hustle, whatever those were, 286 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:09,719 Speaker 2: for money. 287 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 3: I had a lot of. 288 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 2: Judgment of like, oh, you know, I would never do that, 289 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: and I was. But I was only able to not 290 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 2: do it because I came from an upper middle class family, right, 291 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 2: you know, and so I wasn't responsible for putting food 292 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 2: on the table for my children, or maybe responsible. And 293 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: so you come to understand, or I came to understand, 294 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 2: you know, that those. 295 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 3: People make those choices. 296 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: Women make those choices oftentimes because there is no alternative 297 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: yes and so, and that that sort of critical thinking 298 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: through experience and empathy and emotion. I try to find 299 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 2: ways to do that in other places. 300 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 3: But I don't always you know that, I mean. 301 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: You're human. I you know, I come from like a 302 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: very hot headed line of Italian women. Like sometimes my 303 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: initial feeling is very different than the feeling I am 304 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: able to process or speak about in a moment like this, 305 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: when I'm in a calm state, I've had time, I've 306 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: really been able to self interrogate. I've been able to 307 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: ask more information, more questions of the world around me. 308 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: It's like, and I think you have to let yourself 309 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: off the hook a little bit for your humanity, because 310 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: otherwise you're just performing, You're just becoming a kind of 311 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: fractional version of yourself because you're worried about how you 312 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: might seem to other people. 313 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 3: You know. 314 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I think I still do that. I 315 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 2: you know, and I think you know sort of you 316 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 2: were maybe not using this word, but sort of talking 317 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: about it earlier. But I think that one of the 318 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: most important things, it seems like, in the world right now, 319 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: of those of us who are sort of in that 320 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 2: the deep diverse, you know, the ones who look not 321 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 2: the ones who look away, as around the importance and 322 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: the relationship between noticing and a nervous system, you know, 323 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: and that how important the noticing is. And it seems 324 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 2: so there are times where I catch myself where it's like, oh, 325 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: big can deal. I you know, realize there's another younger 326 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: version of myself here, and it's like that that doesn't 327 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 2: change that outcome and that this and the that, But 328 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: I have to remember that there was a version of 329 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 2: me that didn't notice at all before. And so it's 330 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: like when we start to notice, when we're able to 331 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 2: just try to untangle things right, that can lead us 332 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 2: more towards It's the ability. 333 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 3: To you know, camer nervous systems. 334 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 2: And I think that's you know, that's been a big 335 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 2: part of the conversations. 336 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: Like I. 337 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 2: Was interested to call the podcast Reclaiming because I feel 338 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: like reclaiming is this sort of it's a bigger body 339 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: of experience than just the definition. Yeah, and it feels 340 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 2: like that of mindfulness to me. And I feel like 341 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: or talk about the nervous system and polyvagel theory and 342 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: all of that has become that's like the next phase 343 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: for mindfulness. And I think reclaiming comes comes right in 344 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 2: there or right after absolutely. 345 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: And I think when you've when you've been through something, 346 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: particularly in public life and you get kind of cast 347 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: as an archetype rather than represented as yourself. The desire 348 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: to reclaim it's such like an internal fire. I have 349 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: felt it, you know. I think it was part of 350 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: the reason. I think it was part of the core 351 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: reason I started this interview series. 352 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 3: You know. 353 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: I did it because I was thinking to myself, I 354 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,479 Speaker 1: have access to these wonderful people in these rooms that 355 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: so many people don't get to come into, and I 356 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: want to be able to bring them in. It feels 357 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: like service, it feels like advocacy. It feels like, you know, 358 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: all of these things that I care so much about, 359 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: and it enabled me to be my most empathetic, curious 360 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: and intellectual self in a world that you know, from 361 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: the early aughts on TV wanted me to be like 362 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: the hot vixen and I was like, hold on, that's 363 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: not that's not the sum total of me. And you know, 364 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: even the girls and I doing our podcast to go 365 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: back and rewatch our first show and claim it from 366 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: the me too universe of that. Ye, I think there's 367 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: really something when you are reduced in the eyes of others, 368 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: anywhere you can be your full self feels so powerful 369 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: and it's not lost on me that from these vantage 370 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,479 Speaker 1: points you and I sit at in our adult lives, 371 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: having gone back and you know, reparented and given therapy too, 372 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: and re loved in a way our younger selves. You 373 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: also studied psychology and college like a there's a really 374 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: interesting kind of rainbow to now and then the arc 375 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: of that. You know, do you think when you look 376 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: back at that choice and you think about that heaviness 377 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: that you couldn't exactly identify but that you knew you 378 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: carried as a kid. Was psychology a way for you 379 00:23:51,880 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: to consider processing that bigger internal life. Was it all 380 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: so something that felt like a great path to go 381 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: down for service? Was it something that you thought, this 382 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: could be great for understanding people in a political world 383 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: that I'm hoping to go and enter into and maybe 384 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: work in. How'd you choose it? 385 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 3: Well? 386 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 2: I didn't have any political ambitions like that when college even. 387 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 3: No, No, when I was. 388 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 2: When I was I think in kindergarten for about five minutes, 389 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 2: I wanted to be president. 390 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 3: I think every kid maybe goes through that. I'm not sure. 391 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 2: And it's but other than that, I did not have 392 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: political aspirations at all. And I think this psychology all 393 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: the things that you were just mentioning. I think both 394 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: a fascination with people, a fascination. 395 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 3: I'm not sure I would have used. 396 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 2: The word fascination, but the exploration of my own internal 397 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 2: experiences and the weight of pain and not understanding that 398 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: I think in many ways. So and then there was 399 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 2: also I became really fascinated. I took a what was 400 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: it called, I can't remember what the class was called, 401 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: but in my major, it was a class that taught 402 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 2: you about psychological instruments, so like how all these tests 403 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: are devised. 404 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 3: And I was really fascinated by that. 405 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: I think just this idea of, oh, if you look 406 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: at something and analyze something enough and you pull out 407 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: the right pieces, you can come up with a formula 408 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 2: in the shape of a test that will give you 409 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 2: an answer that puts someone in a bucket, that helps 410 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 2: you understand and helps you fix. 411 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 3: And that was it was endlessly fascinating to me. 412 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 2: And so from there in particular, I was I think 413 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: I was fascinated by certain personality tests that they gave 414 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 2: at the FBI, which led me to want to possibly 415 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 2: work at the FBI. And I was also interested by 416 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 2: I can't remember what the test is called, but it's 417 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: something they do in jury selection where they show people 418 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 2: images and they ask you to tell a story about 419 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: the image. So not rorshack, but like a proper image 420 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 2: and it uncovers biases. And so I was really interested 421 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 2: by that those And so that's why when I was 422 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 2: in college, like the plans sort of probably junior and 423 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 2: senior year, was to get a PhD in forensic psychology. 424 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: How then did the idea to apply to work at 425 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: the White House happen? So forensic psychology is brewing. Did 426 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: someone suggest it to you? You know, it feels so 427 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: intimidating to me, So how did you begin? 428 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 3: Yeah? 429 00:26:55,359 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 2: Two things, I guess really three things happened, but roughly 430 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 2: around the same time. And so one was, while I 431 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 2: got a good enough score on the GRE, I did 432 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 2: not get a high enough score on the psych specific 433 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 2: test to get into the PhD program I wanted to 434 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 2: go to according to my advisor, who then said, if 435 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 2: you want a PhD, you shouldn't go somewhere else for 436 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 2: a master's because you'll have to repeat a lot of 437 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 2: those credits and blah blah blah. So I was like, Okay, 438 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 2: I guess I'll retake the GRES and psych specific or 439 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 2: psych specific test next next year. 440 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 3: And move that way. 441 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: Then at some point before I graduated college, and there 442 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: it was summer winter, I can't remember, sorry. 443 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 3: I was with my aunt in DC, and I remember 444 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 3: when we. 445 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 2: Passed by the White House and the old Executive Office 446 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: Building for the first time, I said out loud to her, Wow, 447 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 2: it is so beautiful. Could you imagine going to work 448 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 2: there every day? I can't even I'm very impacted by 449 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,239 Speaker 2: the aesthetic of my environment. So whether it's you know, 450 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 2: just beauty, beauty in some way, and so I feel 451 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 2: like in some ways I set an intention which I 452 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 2: didn't realize, you know, or created this opening of an opportunity. 453 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 2: And then the third was we had a family friend 454 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: who was a big donor and his grandson had done 455 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: this program, and so my mom was wanting me to 456 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 2: come out east because the whole my mom's side of 457 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 2: the family had moved east and I was living in Portland, Oregon, 458 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 2: and so it was she was like, well, why don't 459 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 2: you apply, and while to write a letter of recommendations. 460 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 2: So I was like, okay, fine, So I applied. I 461 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 2: wrote an essay basically like because I was a psych major. 462 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: I you know, the in psychology we study the mind 463 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: of the individual, but the White House is the mind 464 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,719 Speaker 2: of the country, and so that was really that was 465 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: where there was an interest for me. 466 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 3: And then I you know, I think about that. 467 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 2: I got accepted probably because of our family friend Downer, 468 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 2: but I was not just xeroxing and I was writing, 469 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 2: I think because of my essay. 470 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. So 471 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: what was it like to arrive there? I mean, I 472 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: know that you worked in Leon Panetta's office when you're 473 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: in your early twenties and suddenly you are going to 474 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: work at the White House every day? How do you 475 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: get adjusted? How do you figure out where things are? 476 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: You know, who's the person you go to for advice 477 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: in that moment? Is it other interns or junior staffers 478 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: who kind of help you learn the ropes? 479 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 2: I had an amazing I guess boss who was like 480 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 2: the head of a division in the chief of Staff's office. 481 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 2: Who have you said was Leon Panett at at times? 482 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 2: So I'm not going to say her last name in case. 483 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: I mean we've we've stayed in touch, like I've seen 484 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 2: her post everything. But Tracy, who was an amazing mentor uh, 485 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 2: And so I think that there her. You know, there 486 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 2: was another intern in myself who were her staff basically, So, 487 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: you know, I think that that really was the process. 488 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 2: And our office was nested inside a bigger office of 489 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 2: other departments in the old Executive Office building. 490 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: And so when you arrived, what do you get assigned to, Like, 491 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: what's the project, what do you get to see? What 492 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: are you working on? 493 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 2: We're handling all of the correspondents that Lee Paneta got. 494 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 2: So because he was a congressman before he came to 495 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: the White House, he had a huge following from California. 496 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,479 Speaker 2: People who wrote to him, some people who wrote daily, 497 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: lots of people, And so our job was to manage 498 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 2: the flow of his correspondence. 499 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 3: It was kind of the not so much personal, because 500 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 3: it was. 501 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 2: Reaching out to him in a official capacity. 502 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,719 Speaker 1: Of course, So you were really also getting to see 503 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: the in a way, the issues that had the highest 504 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: importance to voters, to constituents. You know, if you're managing 505 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: somebody's mail from a state as large as California, you 506 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: know that people are writing in about environmental regulation, about 507 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: who knows forestry, like any anything. 508 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: I would love to tell you that I paid attention 509 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 2: to that and was focused on that, but I wasn't. 510 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: It was not. 511 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 3: You know, I loved working. 512 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: I had always, you know, I just sort of I 513 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 2: worked from like I tried to get a job before 514 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 2: it was legally I was legally allowed. I lied about 515 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 2: my age trying to get a job, so and I 516 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 2: worked all through college. 517 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 3: And I really liked working. 518 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 2: So I loved being in this environment and I tried 519 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 2: to do the best job I could. 520 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 3: But I wasn't. 521 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 2: I mean, I look back now and I even think 522 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 2: about my time at the Pentagon. I had ridiculously high 523 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: security clearance, and. 524 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 3: I don't look at anything. I just wasn't interested. I 525 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 3: just I wasn't. 526 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 2: I wasn't the kind of young twenty year old who 527 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 2: was interested in that stuff, which is probably why I 528 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: got into so much trouble. 529 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 4: So but you know, it's I just I think it's 530 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 4: it's interesting to me because probably you know, one of 531 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 4: the narratives that came out about me from my time 532 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 4: indeed was that I was a ditzy bimbo, and it was. 533 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 3: Always sort of this. 534 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: It was kind of fascinating to me because I've never 535 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 2: really been a big intellectual but I've always been an 536 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 2: interesting thinker, and so in that way, it was very 537 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: meaningful to me when when I started to talk to 538 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: people at the TED organization about doing my TED Talk, 539 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 2: and the first person I engaged with there when she 540 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 2: said to me, your first job out of college was 541 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 2: at the White House, like, you are not an idiot, 542 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: And so that was sort of a really something I 543 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: had been waiting to hear for a long time because 544 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 2: I often thought about if you had taken all the 545 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 2: facts about me, if I had, you know, if I 546 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: had tragically passed away for some reason. And so there 547 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 2: was some obituary written about me as pre ninety eight, 548 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 2: but being in DC, you know, it's it was impressive, yes, 549 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: you know, and so and all of that got lost. 550 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 2: And when I participated in a documentary that came out 551 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen for the twenty year mark of the impeachment, 552 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 2: and Blair Foster, the director was so you know, she 553 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 2: really wanted to spend time with these photos and talking 554 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 2: about the period when I was working at the Pentagon 555 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 2: and these photos of me on a plane, you know, 556 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 2: with the Secretary of Defense and the reporters who have 557 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 2: now been ps kicked out of the Pentagon where they worked. 558 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 3: Down the hall from where I was. 559 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 2: It's so crazy, and so that I actually worked, you know, 560 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 2: I I worked hard. I might have done other things 561 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 2: that were wrong and stub but I was a really 562 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 2: hard worker. 563 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 564 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: But I think again, what you're talking about is the 565 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: totality of yourself, your identity, not just the clickbait or 566 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: the headline. And it's something I understand so deeply, and 567 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: it's so frustrating, and I've tried to explain it to people. 568 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: It's like an itch on the inside of your body. 569 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,439 Speaker 1: It's something you can never scratch. Yes, you know, it's 570 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: like you get a piece of shrapnel in you and 571 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: they can't take it out, and you turn and when 572 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: you least expect it, it zings from the inside. And 573 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: I think so much about what that must have meant 574 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 1: for you to be able to be reminded of your 575 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: being gifted, your being a smart young kid who was 576 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: on a really impressive career track, and then the shift, 577 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: you know, the shift of exposure that you went through. 578 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna list off if you don't mind a couple 579 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: of things that strike me. It drives me crazy because 580 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: your whole self got eclipsed by something that happened by 581 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: essentially a chapter of your book became your whole book. Also, 582 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: there were dynamics at play that I'm sure from today's 583 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: standpoint and the things that we've learned. Yes, I will 584 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: be the first person to say a lot of that 585 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: was not in the social consciousness in the nineties, right, 586 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: you know, the ways we talk about gender and patriarchy and. 587 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 3: Power, all of that about. 588 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 2: But I think the I think we have so broadened 589 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 2: this spectrum for how we understand it now. 590 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we have just had so much more 591 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: time knowledge research. We're so much more connected. We understand 592 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,439 Speaker 1: things in ways we didn't necessarily then. We were much 593 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 1: more stereotypical and tropy. Yes, you know, Yes, of course, 594 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,240 Speaker 1: women like Audrey Lord and Glorious Steinem had been screaming 595 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: the stuff from the rooftops, but it wasn't in the 596 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 1: mind of every single woman in America in the way 597 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,760 Speaker 1: that I would say it is or is close to now. 598 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: And you know, I also understand what it's like to 599 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: be twenty one, twenty two and think that something amazing 600 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: is happening to you. You know, I don't I know 601 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: that our experiences are not the same, but in a 602 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: way I feel such a kinship to what you went through. 603 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: You know, I was in a different position in the 604 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: sort of classic tale. But I think the reason that 605 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: I feel so passionate about it is especially because it's 606 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: always the women that get zeroed in on. It's the 607 00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: spouse or you quote other women. It's always the women. 608 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: And for some reason, it's like women are never allowed 609 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: to forget either what was done to them or what 610 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: they did in not their best moment, and the men 611 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: like sort of. 612 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 2: Go, well, you know, boys will be boys at whatever 613 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 2: age they are exactly well, I mean, we're seeing this 614 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 2: play out right now, even in that frame of the 615 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: conversation of all this, like Megan Kelly of like a 616 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 2: fifteen year old is a young woman and not I mean, 617 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 2: but it is the difference that we see between men 618 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 2: and women, between. 619 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 3: Races, like it is. It is. 620 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: It's horrifying and exactly what you're saying too. 621 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 3: But I don't know about for you. 622 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 2: I think for me, and it's actually annoyingly something I 623 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 2: still can work on. 624 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 3: It's like the chosen thing. There's something about when you feel. 625 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 2: Kind of chosen, and that chosen comes wrapped in specialness, 626 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 2: and somehow, you. 627 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 3: Know, if this person sees you. 628 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 2: In a way that no one else has seen you 629 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 2: and they think you're special. I don't really understand it 630 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 2: biologically or evolutionarily, but there. 631 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 3: Is something about that. 632 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 2: If that is, if that's been a place where you've 633 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,839 Speaker 2: had a dearth of experience being that person. Yeah, you know, 634 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: it is intoxicating, no matter how dangerous, no matter how wrong. 635 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I also think there's something really important to 636 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: touch on that people often miss because there's this idea 637 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: that when you're in these circles of privilege or sort 638 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: of elitism, everything is just so fancy and things become 639 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 1: relative pretty quick. You're super impressed the first couple of 640 00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: times you walk in the White House gates, I imagine, 641 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: and then eventual it's just the place you go to work. 642 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,439 Speaker 1: You know, the gravity of things wears off and you're 643 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: just kind of living your life. And I wonder for you, 644 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: you know, when we talk about that, what happens next 645 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: From your early career to ninety eight. The world knows 646 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: or thinks they know your story through the spin of 647 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: media and politicians and agendas. You know, there was there 648 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 1: was so much animus to really good progressive work being 649 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: done in President Clinton's white House that people wanted a 650 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: reason to take him down. Also deeply inappropriate behavior. Also 651 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 1: rather again than really figuring out this dynamic, it seems 652 00:40:54,760 --> 00:41:00,399 Speaker 1: at least you got thrown on the fire, HRC thrown 653 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: on the fire. It really it became this scandal of 654 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: the women. And I'm curious for you. I know that 655 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: in hindsight, you know, nobody was looking out for you, 656 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: obvioularly they were like, oh, we can use this. 657 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 2: I was hurry, more expendable than I think I ever 658 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 2: could have imagined, because I couldn't do that to someone else, right, 659 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 2: you know. 660 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: I guess I'm curious for you. You know, what were 661 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 1: you aware of about the way your personal experience was 662 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: being amplified and really distorted at the time? And what 663 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: do you think you've been able to understand since? Because 664 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: this wasn't just a personal kerfuffle in to overlapping groups 665 00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:03,959 Speaker 1: of people. This was the power of an entire national landscape, 666 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: white House, Pentagon, all sorts of people who had all 667 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: sorts of goals that had nothing to do with you 668 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,879 Speaker 1: or a wager either of them. Yeah, it's a big 669 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: machine to get chewed up in and spit out by. Like, yeah, 670 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: when you sit with it today, what do you think 671 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: are the biggest misconceptions? Is there anything you want to 672 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: correct or are you like, let's move on to the 673 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,359 Speaker 1: next question, because like, I've done it and I'm good 674 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: because I in the weirdest way, I don't want to 675 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: ask you to relive things you've had to rehash forever, 676 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: and I want to give you the chance. So I 677 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: don't know what it is. 678 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 2: Let me say this, Sofia, I totally now that I 679 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 2: sit in the in the interviewer chair or the driver 680 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 2: of the conversation chair. Yeah, iugh, hundred percent understand that 681 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 2: the sort of the wanting to have a meaningful conversation 682 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 2: and also not wanting to ask someone to go through 683 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,839 Speaker 2: the trauma. And I get exactly and I appreciate it, 684 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 2: and I you know, I think that there are there's 685 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 2: so many different aspects of what happened that my like 686 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 2: my mind reworked over years. You know, i'd say relensed. 687 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 2: Maybe in some ways, I've always been really careful and 688 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 2: really mindful to to sort of hold on to the 689 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 2: facts too. I was so mindful of not wanting to 690 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 2: be someone who like got on a bandwagon and totally 691 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,759 Speaker 2: changed what my experience was because now it fits some 692 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,760 Speaker 2: different narrative, and so it was, you know, and I 693 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 2: still work on piecing together. Okay, what how I took 694 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 2: so much responsibility at the time too, and that and 695 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 2: I remember the kind of grown ups in the room 696 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 2: being like, you are a child. I mean I was 697 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,359 Speaker 2: twenty two. I was twenty four when it happened. When 698 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 2: twenty four when it became public. Yes, so we're just 699 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 2: not a child forster, but like a really young adult. 700 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 2: And I took on so much responsibility. And I felt 701 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 2: an enormous amount of guilt because if I had not, 702 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 2: there's obviously making different choices about behavior I engaged in. 703 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,560 Speaker 2: But if I had also not confided in Linda Tripp, 704 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 2: this never would have become public. 705 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 1: This is such an incredible conversation, and I'm thrilled to 706 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: let you know that while we are at the end 707 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 1: of part one, there is a part two with Monica Lewinski. 708 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: We'll discuss what her life would have been like if 709 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: this all didn't happen, who helped her with the scary parts, 710 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: and maybe find the silver lining of what good came 711 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,719 Speaker 1: with this tremendous amount of hardship. I'm also going to 712 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,239 Speaker 1: ask her her thoughts about the Epstein emails and victims. 713 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: We'll touch on what's wrong with telling people they have 714 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 1: to stand up to a bully to reclaim their story, 715 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: and we'll learn about what it means to both grieve 716 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: and thrive in tiny pockets. I'll see you for Part 717 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: two with Monica