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Speaker 1: Pushkin this spring. As we were finishing the show, my

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Speaker 1: birthday rolled around again. I always associate this time of

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Speaker 1: year with my trase now because it's when I learned

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Speaker 1: Rick Forsberg's name. Three days before my birthday, I got

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Speaker 1: a package at home. My first thought was someone sent

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Speaker 1: me a gift, but it wasn't a gift. The package,

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Speaker 1: from an online bookseller in England contained two copies of

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Speaker 1: a book called Careless Talk Costs Lives. The picture on

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Speaker 1: the cover was a drawing of two women talking, not

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Speaker 1: realizing that Hitler and Gurring are sitting behind them. There

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Speaker 1: was no return address and no note. I flipped open

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Speaker 1: the book. It was full of propaganda posters from World

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Speaker 1: War II England. But that wasn't the point. The point

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Speaker 1: was the words that jumped out at me as I

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Speaker 1: paged through, warning and be on your guard. I called Hayley.

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Speaker 1: There were two copies, There were two women on the cover.

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Speaker 1: We were two women reporting this story. We both felt

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Speaker 1: this was a threat. Someone out there didn't like the

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Speaker 1: direction of the reporting. Someone wanted us to stop. Over

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Speaker 1: the past five years, we'd talked to so many people

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Speaker 1: with so many competing agendas, cops, criminals, childhood friends of Ricks.

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Speaker 1: Whoever it was, sending the package to my house was

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Speaker 1: a not so subtle reminder that they knew where to

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Speaker 1: find me. I went to my local police station and

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Speaker 1: told the LAPD detective I met with that I was

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Speaker 1: in the midst of sensitive reporting on the Mytries Richardson case,

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Speaker 1: which I reminded him started as an LAPD missing person's case.

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Speaker 1: The detective perked up at that. He agreed the package

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Speaker 1: was meaningful. He asked to keep one of the copies

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Speaker 1: of the book and my business card, and he told

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Speaker 1: me essentially to be on my guard. The whole episode

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Speaker 1: made me feel like we were getting closer to the truth.

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Speaker 1: I'm Dana Goodyear and this is Lost Hills, Episode twelve,

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Speaker 1: Dig two Graves. About six months before she disappeared, My

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Speaker 1: Trees developed a new interest right before my.

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Speaker 2: Trees went missing. She wanted to buy a motorcycle.

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Speaker 1: This is my Teres's dad, Michael again. He says, in

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Speaker 1: July two thousand and nine, my Trees had a motorcycle

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Speaker 1: driving test. He wanted to go with her, but he

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Speaker 1: had just started a new.

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Speaker 2: Job and now was something that I regret to this

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Speaker 2: day because that would have been the last thing possibly

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Speaker 2: that we've done together.

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Speaker 1: Haley and I are visiting Michael at home in his

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Speaker 1: garage where he has a kind of shrine set up

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Speaker 1: to the memory of my Trees and what happened to her.

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Speaker 1: There are collages of family photos and framed articles about

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Speaker 1: her disappearance. The garage is where he keeps his white

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Speaker 1: sixty six Chevy with the portrait of my Trese on

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Speaker 1: the trunk, and where he also keeps the front piece

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Speaker 1: of the orange and cream color to Harley Davidson he

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Speaker 1: bought in her honor after she died. Just like the car,

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Speaker 1: the Harley has a portrait of My Trees painted on it.

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Speaker 2: My friends teased me because they was like this dude

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Speaker 2: never rode them any bike, never had a scooter.

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Speaker 3: And when he.

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Speaker 2: Came, he came with a fifty thousand dollars motorcycle, custom built,

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Speaker 2: ready to ride, and the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: But we're not here to see the motorcycle or the car.

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Speaker 1: We're here because Michael told us he has a bag

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Speaker 1: full of My Trees's clothing. He found the clothing in

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Speaker 1: her car. It was there when she disappeared. It's been

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Speaker 1: packed away in the garage untouched for almost fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: He's never opened it.

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Speaker 2: It's in a ziplock bag, and some just told me,

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Speaker 2: never get rid of and I couldn't do it if

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Speaker 2: I wanted to, you know, So I just always felt

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Speaker 2: like someday somehow were gonna need him, We're gonna need him,

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Speaker 2: and so I kept him in a plastic ziplock bag.

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Speaker 2: I know we'll see, yeah, So let me know when

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Speaker 2: you're ready.

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Speaker 1: Michael heads for the back corner of the garage where

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Speaker 1: he has some metal shelves. He pulls down one of

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Speaker 1: those clear plastic bags for storing pillows.

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Speaker 3: Is you know we have this same that this girl

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Speaker 3: wants the will to know who did this.

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Speaker 1: When we see the clothing through the bag, something unexpected happens.

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Speaker 4: Gosh, Michael, I am feeling emotional.

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Speaker 5: Seeing the s into.

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Speaker 1: There's just something about seeing this man hold his daughter's

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Speaker 1: belongings in his arms. It's what's left of her from

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Speaker 1: that night, what she had with her in her car

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Speaker 1: when she is arrested. It's who she was until the

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Speaker 1: moment her identity flattened out into victim. We're closer to

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Speaker 1: my trees than we've ever been, as close as we'll

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Speaker 1: ever get. We walk out to the driveway and Michael

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Speaker 1: sits down in a folding chair. We put on our

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Speaker 1: N ninety five's and gloves and get to work. I

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Speaker 1: unzip the bag and start removing its contents. Some of

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Speaker 1: the clothes and shoes were clearly part of my Trees's

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Speaker 1: Go Go dancing wardrobe. A glove, a strip of purple

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Speaker 1: sequined cloth, tall boots, strappy heels. So this is like

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Speaker 1: a patent leather. Do you think she would wear this

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Speaker 1: at Debra's?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 1: I line everything up on the pavement.

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Speaker 4: One two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine pairs

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Speaker 4: of shoes, which includes three pairs of boots, one of

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Speaker 4: which are uggs, and then there are one of those

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Speaker 4: is flip flaps.

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Speaker 1: The rest are high heels. Deeper in the bag we

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Speaker 1: find my Trece's makeup kit. Inside it's a tangle of

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Speaker 1: chunky beads and brightly colored hoop earrings, and buried in

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Speaker 1: there in a tangled knot, is the thing we've been

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Speaker 1: looking for.

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Speaker 6: That looks like it might be underwear or something that

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Speaker 6: striped underneath?

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Speaker 7: See that little right does striped?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, you're right, good, good that is underwear.

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Speaker 1: Can I have a plastic bag? Its size, medium, purple

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Speaker 1: and black stripes mesh very similar to some of the

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Speaker 1: items we found inside the suitcase at Rick's Fort. All

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, it seems a lot more likely that

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Speaker 1: one of the pairs of Fort underwear could be my Treces.

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Speaker 1: We bag up the thong along with a purple hair

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Speaker 1: brush filled with my Teresa's hair. Michael says we can

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Speaker 1: have them tested for DNA. He's willing to do anything

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Speaker 1: at this point.

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Speaker 2: I can't get a case close if I'm limited to

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Speaker 2: what I give you, guys. I have to be open

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Speaker 2: to like here, you're taking this serious, so I want

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Speaker 2: you guys to have it.

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Speaker 1: The handling of my Teresa's clothing from the remain site

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Speaker 1: was completely botched. Nothing was even tested till after her

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Speaker 1: body was exhumed, a year after the discovery. We don't

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Speaker 1: know exactly what was done at that point, but nothing

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Speaker 1: came of it. We're hoping that through forensic evidence, we

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Speaker 1: can place my Teres at Rick's Fort. It's a long shot,

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Speaker 1: but finding that stuff at the fort was so improbable

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Speaker 1: we have to try. Angela Butler is a DNA analyst

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Speaker 1: at a private forensics lab in the Bay Area.

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Speaker 6: I typically take the most challenging cases lab. Right now,

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Speaker 6: I'm doing a lot of cold cases.

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Speaker 1: Her lab works with cops, prosecutors, and innocence projects, handling

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Speaker 1: a lot of high profile cases, The Nightstalker, Richard Ramirez,

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson, Kristen Smart, and now my Terce Richardson. With

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Speaker 1: Michael's permission, we sent my Teresa's hairbrush to Butler. We

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Speaker 1: also sent the two size medium black thongs we found

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Speaker 1: at Rick's fort. If she could get my Teresa's DNA

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Speaker 1: from the hairbrush and DNA from the fort underwear, she'd

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Speaker 1: be able to compare the profiles there could be a match.

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Speaker 1: She started with the hairbrush.

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Speaker 6: So I took a few swabs and I really got

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Speaker 6: into the base of those bristles, and there was plenty

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Speaker 6: of material that was visible on the swabs, and I thought, great,

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Speaker 6: this will be enough to get me something.

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Speaker 1: But when Butler analyzed it, the material was very degraded

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Speaker 1: and there was almost no DNA.

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Speaker 6: I would have wanted to see at least ten times

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Speaker 6: as much DNA to get at least a partial profile,

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Speaker 6: and the quality was very poor.

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Speaker 1: That was disappointing. But we could potentially build out my

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Speaker 1: Terrees's DNA profile a different way, particularly if her dad

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Speaker 1: was willing to help. So Butler moved on to see what,

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Speaker 1: if anything she could get from the fort underwear. We'd

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Speaker 1: warned her it was muddy, moldy, and damp, and as

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Speaker 1: far as we knew, had been outside for more than

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Speaker 1: a decade. She started with the pair that was most

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Speaker 1: similar to the pair that my Teres had in her car,

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Speaker 1: the black thong size medium with the rampage label.

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Speaker 6: Well, though when those came out of the bag, those

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Speaker 6: were still wet. I know that bacterial degradation is probably

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Speaker 6: actively happening, so right out of the gate, I thought,

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Speaker 6: oh boy, this isn't good.

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Speaker 1: She sampled the crotch area, extracted the DNA and found

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Speaker 1: only a tiny amount.

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Speaker 6: Such a trace amount, it was the equivalent of a sells.

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Speaker 8: Worth of DNA.

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Speaker 1: There was nowhere near enough DNA to identify an individual.

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Speaker 1: We'd struck out. We didn't have the resources to test

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Speaker 1: the rest of the Fort underwear, but Butler encouraged us

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Speaker 1: not to throw away what we'd found, so I called

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Speaker 1: the cold case desk at the Sheriff's Department Homicide Bureau again.

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Speaker 1: They could test it all if they wanted to. The

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Speaker 1: last time, I spoke to Lieutenant Michael Modica, who's in

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Speaker 1: charge of the cold case unit. He wasn't interested in

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Speaker 1: hearing about any of our discovery, but he did say

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Speaker 1: to get in touch if we had any luck with

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Speaker 1: the forensics. I feel like I owe him an answer,

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Speaker 1: and I'm hoping to convince him to take the stash

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Speaker 1: of underwear from rix Ford and do something with it.

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Speaker 8: Lieutenant Michael Modica.

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Speaker 5: Is not available record your message at the tone. Hi,

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Speaker 5: Lieutenant Modica, this is Dana Goodyear from the Lost House podcast.

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Speaker 5: I left word for you on Monday regarding the Mitries

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Speaker 5: Richardson case and some materials that I have mentioned to you.

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Speaker 5: We've come to the end of the road with what

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Speaker 5: we can do, and I'm just wondering if you might

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Speaker 5: have any interests. I think that potentially law enforcement would

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Speaker 5: be able to take this further than we could using

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Speaker 5: a credit lab.

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Speaker 1: I'm still waiting for him to call me back, but

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Speaker 1: in the meantime we get a big surprise. Mark Wallace,

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Speaker 1: Rix's firefighter friend calls me. Rick stayed at Mark's place

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Speaker 1: on and off between two thousand and nine, when Rick

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Speaker 1: got out of prison. In twenty twelve, when he was

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Speaker 1: investigated again by the Sheriff's Department homicide detectives in the

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Speaker 1: disappearance and death of my Teres Richardson. Mark's supposed to

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Speaker 1: be the guy who knows what happened, and now Mark

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Speaker 1: wants to talk. Mark Wallace dodged us for almost a year.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't until we sent him a formal write of

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Speaker 1: reply letter telling him what we were planning to report

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Speaker 1: about Rick Forsberg and the goings on at the Wallypad

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Speaker 1: that he relented and said we could come over, but

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Speaker 1: we're just talking for now. He doesn't want us to

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Speaker 1: record in case we might be caught. The first thing

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Speaker 1: that happens when we get to the Walipad is Mark

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Speaker 1: has us move our cars. We've parked them at an

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Speaker 1: intersection near his house. That's the place he tells us

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Speaker 1: that the cops set up surveillance cameras back when Rick

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Speaker 1: was crashing in his basement. The homicide detectives had shown

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Speaker 1: him a big portfolio of photos of Rick and some

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Speaker 1: of their other derelict friends doing speedballs in their car.

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Speaker 1: Right there, is it any wonder Mark's a little paranoid.

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Speaker 1: Mar's in his sixties, boyish and wiry with a jumpy energy.

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Speaker 1: He retired as a fire captain in January. His mother,

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Speaker 1: who has dementia, lives next door. Lisa Goldman, Mark's wife,

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Speaker 1: says she used to get the chills when Rick came around.

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Speaker 1: Spooky is the word she uses. Psycho is what Mark says,

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Speaker 1: afraid of no One drunk and high every single day

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Speaker 1: of his life. They show us the little basement room

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Speaker 1: where Rick would stay. Back then it had a dirt floor.

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Speaker 1: Mark says that's where Raven made her video interview and

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Speaker 1: where Rick choked Lisa Lapour and he says, almost broke

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Speaker 1: her neck. Mark tells us the footprints found outside his

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Speaker 1: house are a red herring. The first indication he had

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Speaker 1: that Rick was connected to my Teresa's death was when

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Speaker 1: her body was discovered in Dark Canyon. The rangers said

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Speaker 1: they were checking on a previously disrupted marijuana operation, presumably

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Speaker 1: something large scale, but Mark says when he saw the

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Speaker 1: helicopter hovering over Dark Canyon, his first thought was, oh fuck,

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Speaker 1: they're rating Rick's patch. Rick had been growing weed in

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Speaker 1: Dark Canyon since they were boys. No One dared go

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Speaker 1: in there. Rick had the place booby trapped, so when

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Speaker 1: a woman's body turned up there, Mark immediately suspected. Mark

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Speaker 1: says Rick was a total charmer, the guy who always

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Speaker 1: had the prettiest girlfriend, and he says, could talk the

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Speaker 1: pants off any chick. Hey, Darlin, that's what he'd say.

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Speaker 1: But then he'd lose his temper over nothing and choke

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Speaker 1: them out psycho. So Mark always had his suspicions. But

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Speaker 1: he tells us it's not like he has some smoking gun,

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Speaker 1: some big confession from Rick. Mark says, quote. The Mitrice

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Speaker 1: Richardson case has everything except proof it's true. The case

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00:16:52,556 --> 00:16:57,116
Speaker 1: against Rick Forsberg is purely circumstantial at this point, but

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00:16:57,356 --> 00:17:01,916
Speaker 1: enough circumstantial evidence can close a case. So here is

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00:17:01,916 --> 00:17:06,036
Speaker 1: what we know and what we don't. We know Rick

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00:17:06,076 --> 00:17:08,636
Speaker 1: got out of prison in July two thousand and nine

249
00:17:09,116 --> 00:17:12,796
Speaker 1: and returned to Montanito two months before My Trees turned

250
00:17:12,876 --> 00:17:16,396
Speaker 1: up there. We don't know how my Trees got from

251
00:17:16,516 --> 00:17:20,236
Speaker 1: Lost Hill Station to Montanito. The timing is such that

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00:17:20,636 --> 00:17:23,716
Speaker 1: she could have walked, though her mother thought that was unlikely.

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Speaker 1: We know Rick had access to a motorcycle, and he

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Speaker 1: said he picked my Trees up. We don't know where

255
00:17:31,556 --> 00:17:35,916
Speaker 1: or when the motorcycle could help explain my Trees's disappearing

256
00:17:35,996 --> 00:17:41,036
Speaker 1: scent and non continuous footprints. We know my Trees loitered

257
00:17:41,156 --> 00:17:44,436
Speaker 1: outside Mark Wallace's house around the time of her disappearance.

258
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Speaker 1: We don't know if Rick was at Marx at the time,

259
00:17:48,076 --> 00:17:50,596
Speaker 1: and we have no evidence that my Trees went onto

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Speaker 1: Mark's property. We know Rick knew how to get into

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00:17:54,316 --> 00:17:58,596
Speaker 1: Dark Canyon, where my Trece's remains were found. We know

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00:17:58,756 --> 00:18:02,516
Speaker 1: my Trees liked motorcycles and smoking pot, and that she

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00:18:02,636 --> 00:18:05,476
Speaker 1: was in an altered state where her normal decision making

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00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:09,436
Speaker 1: processes may have been suspended. Not to mention, she was

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Speaker 1: probably growing desperate. She may have been hungry, thirsty, and

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00:18:13,836 --> 00:18:19,276
Speaker 1: looking for help. Hey, Darling, we don't know if my

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00:18:19,436 --> 00:18:23,316
Speaker 1: Teres went willingly into Dark Canyon. We don't know why

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Speaker 1: her remains were partially mummified. Was that due to the

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00:18:27,036 --> 00:18:31,236
Speaker 1: fluctuating temperatures and soil conditions in Dark Canyon, or does

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00:18:31,236 --> 00:18:35,396
Speaker 1: it indicate her remains were kept somewhere else then moved.

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Speaker 1: We know my Teres's death was suspicious. A young woman

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Speaker 1: naked in a canyon, half her clothes missing, The rest

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Speaker 1: of them scattered her belt out of her belt loops.

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Speaker 1: We don't know how My Trees died. Her death could

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Speaker 1: have been an accident. What if she was hanging out

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00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:06,316
Speaker 1: with Rick Forsberg and fell or overdosed. The autopsy, unfortunately,

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00:19:06,596 --> 00:19:11,036
Speaker 1: was inconclusive. There wasn't enough so off tissue left. We

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Speaker 1: do know it's highly improbable that my Trees died from

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00:19:14,156 --> 00:19:18,396
Speaker 1: gunshot or knife wound or blunt force trauma. No indications

280
00:19:18,396 --> 00:19:22,636
Speaker 1: of trauma were observed, and the comment Lisa Lapore repeated

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00:19:22,676 --> 00:19:26,556
Speaker 1: about Rick cutting her up. If such a remark was made,

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00:19:26,676 --> 00:19:29,716
Speaker 1: it was probably not literal. There was nothing on my

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00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:33,956
Speaker 1: Teres's bones to indicate dismemberment, though according to the forensic

284
00:19:33,996 --> 00:19:37,916
Speaker 1: pathologist who conducted the autopsy, her throat could have been cut.

285
00:19:38,476 --> 00:19:40,836
Speaker 1: Without soft tissue, there would be no way to know

286
00:19:43,076 --> 00:19:47,956
Speaker 1: was my Trees strangled. If investigators had found her hyoid

287
00:19:48,036 --> 00:19:51,316
Speaker 1: bone and it had been broken, that could have been definitive.

288
00:19:51,916 --> 00:19:55,116
Speaker 1: But it was never found, so we don't know if

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00:19:55,196 --> 00:19:59,916
Speaker 1: my Truce was strangled. We do know Rick said he

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00:19:59,996 --> 00:20:03,756
Speaker 1: picked her up. We do know Rick had a history

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00:20:03,876 --> 00:20:08,196
Speaker 1: of violence against women. We do know he had a

292
00:20:08,276 --> 00:20:10,036
Speaker 1: history of strangling women.

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00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:14,636
Speaker 9: We know when it comes to strangulation. Strangulation is a

294
00:20:14,676 --> 00:20:15,436
Speaker 9: gender crime.

295
00:20:16,156 --> 00:20:19,516
Speaker 1: Gail Strack is a former prosecutor and an expert on

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00:20:19,596 --> 00:20:25,156
Speaker 1: strangulation in cases of domestic violence. She says strangulation is

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00:20:25,196 --> 00:20:27,196
Speaker 1: typically a prelude to murder.

298
00:20:27,596 --> 00:20:31,036
Speaker 9: If you look at the continual of violence, strangulation is

299
00:20:31,116 --> 00:20:34,276
Speaker 9: at the end of just before a homicide.

300
00:20:35,076 --> 00:20:37,916
Speaker 1: The act of strangling and the act of strangling to

301
00:20:37,996 --> 00:20:39,836
Speaker 1: death are essentially the same.

302
00:20:40,556 --> 00:20:43,316
Speaker 9: And when somebody is willing to put their hands around

303
00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:46,636
Speaker 9: someone's neck and especially take them to the point where

304
00:20:46,676 --> 00:20:50,396
Speaker 9: they pass out they think they're going to die, it

305
00:20:50,436 --> 00:20:53,556
Speaker 9: is a calling card of a killer. It is a

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00:20:53,636 --> 00:20:57,036
Speaker 9: killer raising his hand and saying I am willing and

307
00:20:57,156 --> 00:20:58,716
Speaker 9: capable of killing someone.

308
00:20:59,996 --> 00:21:03,276
Speaker 1: Strangulation is one of the easiest forms of homicide to

309
00:21:03,276 --> 00:21:05,116
Speaker 1: commit and to cover up.

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Speaker 8: It only takes eleven pounds of pressure. Is really nothing.

311
00:21:11,156 --> 00:21:14,636
Speaker 1: Doctor Bill Smock, a sworn police officer and an expert

312
00:21:14,636 --> 00:21:18,316
Speaker 1: in forensic medicine, says strangulation can pose a challenge to

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00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:21,996
Speaker 1: law enforcement. It's a crime that can leave no marks,

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00:21:22,596 --> 00:21:25,196
Speaker 1: and it requires surprisingly little strength.

315
00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:29,556
Speaker 8: If you think an adult male handshake generates one hundred

316
00:21:29,556 --> 00:21:33,036
Speaker 8: pounds of pressure, one tenth of that. It's all that's

317
00:21:33,076 --> 00:21:36,316
Speaker 8: required to include blood float to the brain via the

318
00:21:36,316 --> 00:21:37,236
Speaker 8: carotid arteries.

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00:21:37,836 --> 00:21:40,836
Speaker 1: Doctor Smock was one of the key experts to testify

320
00:21:40,916 --> 00:21:44,596
Speaker 1: in the prosecution of Derek Chauvin, the police officer found

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00:21:44,636 --> 00:21:46,396
Speaker 1: guilty of killing George Floyd.

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Speaker 8: If you apply a bicep and forearm to the human deck,

323
00:21:51,516 --> 00:21:54,836
Speaker 8: you have a large surface area where that pressure is applied. Again,

324
00:21:55,476 --> 00:21:58,796
Speaker 8: it can be applied in such a manner even with

325
00:21:58,956 --> 00:22:01,596
Speaker 8: more than eleven pounds of pressure, and you will never

326
00:22:01,836 --> 00:22:02,676
Speaker 8: leave a mark.

327
00:22:03,436 --> 00:22:06,516
Speaker 1: We talk about the specifics of my Teresa's case and

328
00:22:06,556 --> 00:22:10,556
Speaker 1: what seems to me the glaringly inadequate explanation law enforcement

329
00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:14,156
Speaker 1: gave about her death. Their view that being mentally ill,

330
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Speaker 1: she probably just chose to die.

331
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Speaker 8: And that's totally bs. We call those a diagnosis of

332
00:22:21,796 --> 00:22:26,916
Speaker 8: exclusion once she ruled out everything else. But clearly a

333
00:22:26,956 --> 00:22:31,676
Speaker 8: woman who has found dead and naked is high on

334
00:22:31,716 --> 00:22:33,236
Speaker 8: the suspicious list.

335
00:22:33,916 --> 00:22:37,956
Speaker 1: The circumstances of my Teresa's death, doctor Smock says, suggest

336
00:22:37,996 --> 00:22:38,756
Speaker 1: a homicide.

337
00:22:39,276 --> 00:22:44,276
Speaker 8: You have to assume that it's a homicide till proven otherwise. Plus,

338
00:22:44,396 --> 00:22:47,956
Speaker 8: you have her clothes are away from the body, the

339
00:22:48,036 --> 00:22:51,916
Speaker 8: belt is out was the belt used as a weapon.

340
00:22:52,076 --> 00:22:55,556
Speaker 8: Whose DNA is on that belt? Why is it out

341
00:22:55,556 --> 00:22:58,796
Speaker 8: of the pants? Things that you have to explain. You

342
00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:02,476
Speaker 8: can't say, Oh, she took her clothes off and went

343
00:23:02,516 --> 00:23:04,436
Speaker 8: over there and laid down to die. No, twenty four

344
00:23:04,516 --> 00:23:14,356
Speaker 8: year olds can't lie down and will yourself to die.

345
00:23:15,196 --> 00:23:19,956
Speaker 3: And so it's just kind of weird for me to

346
00:23:22,356 --> 00:23:22,956
Speaker 3: be saying it.

347
00:23:22,996 --> 00:23:27,676
Speaker 1: But finally, Mark Wallace is ready for us to hit record.

348
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Speaker 3: All right, well are you recording hours? And let me sure?

349
00:23:31,196 --> 00:23:34,876
Speaker 1: Let's see for more than two hours, Haley and I

350
00:23:34,916 --> 00:23:38,036
Speaker 1: have been sitting by his pool. It's a beautiful spot

351
00:23:38,236 --> 00:23:41,316
Speaker 1: looking out over the Santa Monica Mountains and the backside

352
00:23:41,316 --> 00:23:44,876
Speaker 1: of Dark Canyon. Mark thinks of his pool as a

353
00:23:44,916 --> 00:23:48,756
Speaker 1: swimming hole and the big boulder, which Rick placed for him,

354
00:23:49,036 --> 00:23:52,036
Speaker 1: as a diving rock, like the spots they found in

355
00:23:52,076 --> 00:23:56,436
Speaker 1: the canyon creeks when they were boys. Mark's got deep

356
00:23:56,516 --> 00:23:59,156
Speaker 1: loyalty to Rick and to the way they were raised

357
00:23:59,156 --> 00:24:02,556
Speaker 1: in Montanito. He's not sure what he might be risking

358
00:24:02,836 --> 00:24:03,796
Speaker 1: by talking to us.

359
00:24:05,036 --> 00:24:08,916
Speaker 10: So the cops could listen to me decide they want

360
00:24:08,956 --> 00:24:14,076
Speaker 10: to fuck with me, My friends could listen to me,

361
00:24:14,436 --> 00:24:21,356
Speaker 10: and I think I'm a rat or a something else,

362
00:24:21,476 --> 00:24:21,716
Speaker 10: you know.

363
00:24:24,876 --> 00:24:27,596
Speaker 1: But he also has a little more information about Rick,

364
00:24:28,396 --> 00:24:31,596
Speaker 1: and in spite of his reluctance, he's going to share.

365
00:24:31,396 --> 00:24:34,916
Speaker 3: It, all right, So what do you want?

366
00:24:36,636 --> 00:24:38,956
Speaker 1: I want to hear the story of what happened when

367
00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:42,956
Speaker 1: the Sheriff's homicide detectives interviewed Mark about Rick back in

368
00:24:42,956 --> 00:24:47,316
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, when Rick was crashing in his basement. They

369
00:24:47,356 --> 00:24:50,596
Speaker 1: spoke to him for five hours in a conference room

370
00:24:50,676 --> 00:24:53,956
Speaker 1: at his firehouse, and at the end they asked him

371
00:24:53,996 --> 00:24:56,756
Speaker 1: for his help because they knew Rick was violent.

372
00:24:57,916 --> 00:25:00,796
Speaker 10: They told me they wanted to take Rick in for questioning,

373
00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:05,756
Speaker 10: and that last time he was taken in, he fought

374
00:25:05,836 --> 00:25:08,876
Speaker 10: the cops and he broke one's arm or leg or

375
00:25:08,876 --> 00:25:11,196
Speaker 10: something thing, and then he also biddle holding another one's

376
00:25:11,276 --> 00:25:15,836
Speaker 10: chest fighting him and then so they didn't want to

377
00:25:15,836 --> 00:25:18,436
Speaker 10: have that happen again, so they wanted me to smooth

378
00:25:19,316 --> 00:25:23,796
Speaker 10: the way for Rick to be interviewed and to get

379
00:25:24,116 --> 00:25:25,676
Speaker 10: a light detector test.

380
00:25:26,156 --> 00:25:28,996
Speaker 1: Mark went home and told Rick that the homicide detectives

381
00:25:29,036 --> 00:25:31,916
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to him about the disappearance and possible

382
00:25:31,996 --> 00:25:36,796
Speaker 1: murder of my Teres Richardson. Mark says Rick gasped.

383
00:25:37,636 --> 00:25:37,836
Speaker 11: Yeah.

384
00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:40,076
Speaker 10: He was like, oh my god, like the cops, what

385
00:25:40,516 --> 00:25:44,396
Speaker 10: the cops are fucking got me down as the as

386
00:25:44,436 --> 00:25:45,516
Speaker 10: a suspect.

387
00:25:46,436 --> 00:25:48,076
Speaker 3: They want to talk to me about it, you know?

388
00:25:48,196 --> 00:25:51,636
Speaker 3: And I mean he didn't. He just Rick has a

389
00:25:51,636 --> 00:25:52,916
Speaker 3: way of like just kind of like.

390
00:25:52,876 --> 00:25:55,836
Speaker 10: Looking through you and sometimes and he kind of like

391
00:25:55,996 --> 00:25:58,276
Speaker 10: got the information from me, and then he was off

392
00:25:58,276 --> 00:26:00,956
Speaker 10: in his own mind like trying to figure out what

393
00:26:00,956 --> 00:26:01,916
Speaker 10: he's going to do about it.

394
00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:05,036
Speaker 3: He freaked out.

395
00:26:06,436 --> 00:26:09,996
Speaker 10: And started grabbing for his phone, like, I got to

396
00:26:10,036 --> 00:26:11,196
Speaker 10: call Steve right now.

397
00:26:12,116 --> 00:26:16,556
Speaker 1: Rick called Steve Gilbert, another Montanito boy who has since died,

398
00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:18,356
Speaker 1: but he didn't reach him.

399
00:26:19,396 --> 00:26:21,396
Speaker 10: He left Steve a message right in front of me

400
00:26:21,396 --> 00:26:27,316
Speaker 10: and said, Steve, the cops think I murdered somebody. And

401
00:26:27,356 --> 00:26:29,716
Speaker 10: then he said, I got stuff. I got to get

402
00:26:29,756 --> 00:26:32,476
Speaker 10: out of the out of my place.

403
00:26:34,196 --> 00:26:35,156
Speaker 3: I don't know what it was.

404
00:26:36,196 --> 00:26:39,716
Speaker 1: Mark was disturbed by Rick's reaction and alarmed by his

405
00:26:39,836 --> 00:26:44,196
Speaker 1: reference to removing apparently incriminating evidence from his fort.

406
00:26:44,476 --> 00:26:49,676
Speaker 10: And he was freaked out, like and I said, wait,

407
00:26:49,916 --> 00:26:52,556
Speaker 10: why you know what are you talking about? You got

408
00:26:52,556 --> 00:26:55,396
Speaker 10: to get stuff? And then I said do you know

409
00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:56,356
Speaker 10: something about this?

410
00:26:57,676 --> 00:27:01,556
Speaker 1: Then Mark says Rick told him a story he'd never

411
00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:05,156
Speaker 1: told him before, that he'd seen my Trace on the

412
00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:08,396
Speaker 1: morning of her disappearance two and a half years earlier.

413
00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:11,716
Speaker 10: And then he proceeded to tell me that he had

414
00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:16,356
Speaker 10: been walking down the hill from his place up on

415
00:27:16,476 --> 00:27:21,716
Speaker 10: Payuma and he heard an argument and he heard some

416
00:27:21,916 --> 00:27:25,476
Speaker 10: female voice y'all, fuck y'all, and so he's like, well,

417
00:27:25,476 --> 00:27:26,996
Speaker 10: there's black people in Montnito.

418
00:27:28,156 --> 00:27:31,396
Speaker 1: Mark says. Rick told him my rise was arguing but

419
00:27:31,516 --> 00:27:33,276
Speaker 1: the owner of the Tennis court House.

420
00:27:34,236 --> 00:27:37,316
Speaker 10: And he was basically running her out of his property,

421
00:27:37,396 --> 00:27:39,876
Speaker 10: telling her to get off my property, and she was

422
00:27:40,796 --> 00:27:45,196
Speaker 10: pissed off or whatever and started walking up Pauma. I said, well,

423
00:27:45,196 --> 00:27:47,676
Speaker 10: what did you do when she came walking up the road,

424
00:27:47,756 --> 00:27:50,276
Speaker 10: and he said, oh, I just faded back into the bushes.

425
00:27:50,836 --> 00:27:55,276
Speaker 10: So he basically, in that conversation there told me that

426
00:27:55,356 --> 00:27:57,836
Speaker 10: he was the last person that saw my Trice Richard's alive,

427
00:28:00,076 --> 00:28:02,396
Speaker 10: because I don't know of anybody else that saw her

428
00:28:02,516 --> 00:28:05,036
Speaker 10: after she walked out of the Smith's property.

429
00:28:06,676 --> 00:28:11,636
Speaker 1: Mark believes Rick's story in Criminals Him. Rick told Mark

430
00:28:11,956 --> 00:28:14,796
Speaker 1: he watched my Terse leave the Tennis court House and

431
00:28:14,836 --> 00:28:18,756
Speaker 1: walk up Payuma Road. Rick told Jill he picked my

432
00:28:18,836 --> 00:28:24,396
Speaker 1: Trese up on his motorcycle. Rick's stories are inconsistent, but

433
00:28:24,516 --> 00:28:27,996
Speaker 1: in both of them, Rick makes himself the last person

434
00:28:28,076 --> 00:28:33,236
Speaker 1: to see my Terse alive. Mark says his suspicions of

435
00:28:33,316 --> 00:28:38,396
Speaker 1: Rick are rooted in three facts. One, my Teresa's remains

436
00:28:38,476 --> 00:28:44,116
Speaker 1: are found in dark Canyon, Rick's longtime grow spot. Two,

437
00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:48,596
Speaker 1: Rix the last person to see her alive. And three,

438
00:28:49,556 --> 00:28:53,156
Speaker 1: when Rick finds out that homicide detectives suspect him in

439
00:28:53,236 --> 00:28:57,636
Speaker 1: my Teresa's disappearance and death, he urgently needs to remove

440
00:28:57,716 --> 00:28:59,516
Speaker 1: something from his fort.

441
00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:04,676
Speaker 10: Just the way that he took the information and started

442
00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:07,356
Speaker 10: saying he had to get rid of something out of

443
00:29:07,396 --> 00:29:12,036
Speaker 10: his camp freaked me out, like what like some bones

444
00:29:12,156 --> 00:29:15,316
Speaker 10: or something, or some her underwear or something, I don't know.

445
00:29:16,196 --> 00:29:17,076
Speaker 3: And then.

446
00:29:18,596 --> 00:29:20,556
Speaker 10: He was, you know, like I got to go clean

447
00:29:20,636 --> 00:29:23,076
Speaker 10: up a bunch of stuff and get ready for tomorrow,

448
00:29:23,196 --> 00:29:25,436
Speaker 10: and then he did.

449
00:29:26,116 --> 00:29:30,956
Speaker 1: Mark says Rick dressed carefully for his polygraph. Rick cleaned

450
00:29:31,036 --> 00:29:34,636
Speaker 1: up well, and he never lost his golden boy confidence.

451
00:29:35,756 --> 00:29:37,556
Speaker 10: When he left to go to his interview, he was

452
00:29:37,676 --> 00:29:41,436
Speaker 10: dressed in white shirt and fancy clothes and looked like

453
00:29:41,516 --> 00:29:44,556
Speaker 10: he was going off to a party on a yacht

454
00:29:44,676 --> 00:29:51,556
Speaker 10: or something, and I don't remember what happened when he

455
00:29:51,596 --> 00:29:54,596
Speaker 10: came home. He just told me, yeah, I passed the

456
00:29:54,636 --> 00:30:00,116
Speaker 10: light detecer test, and I don't know what else to say.

457
00:30:01,396 --> 00:30:04,556
Speaker 1: Mark told us Rick had a lifelong strategy for getting

458
00:30:04,596 --> 00:30:08,916
Speaker 1: out of trouble. One he taught all the Montinito boys.

459
00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:14,756
Speaker 10: Told us like, you don't ever admit guilt, no matter

460
00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:19,196
Speaker 10: what you do. Just stick to your story even if

461
00:30:19,196 --> 00:30:24,676
Speaker 10: you're guilty, and there's always going to be one juror

462
00:30:24,716 --> 00:30:25,596
Speaker 10: that'll believe you.

463
00:30:26,916 --> 00:30:33,836
Speaker 3: He said, Just just never admit to anything. And I

464
00:30:33,876 --> 00:30:34,196
Speaker 3: don't know.

465
00:30:34,316 --> 00:30:42,676
Speaker 10: I guess it worked out for him because he didn't

466
00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:47,276
Speaker 10: get prosecuted. They basically just let him go.

467
00:30:51,876 --> 00:30:55,516
Speaker 1: But the people closest to my trace believe there's more

468
00:30:55,556 --> 00:31:12,196
Speaker 1: than one form of justice. I'm glad that it's a

469
00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:15,836
Speaker 1: beautiful day for my Terce's birthday. I'm a long way

470
00:31:15,876 --> 00:31:19,596
Speaker 1: from Malibu. It's nine am, and the Flower District in

471
00:31:19,676 --> 00:31:23,356
Speaker 1: downtown La is bustling. There are buckets of flowers and

472
00:31:23,476 --> 00:31:27,036
Speaker 1: vendors on every street corner. Hayley and I are here

473
00:31:27,076 --> 00:31:30,636
Speaker 1: to meet Jewel Moore, one of my Teresa's closest friends.

474
00:31:31,676 --> 00:31:33,876
Speaker 11: That was like the weather's nice. It was raining all

475
00:31:33,956 --> 00:31:35,916
Speaker 11: last week. It's supposed to be so hot this week,

476
00:31:35,996 --> 00:31:36,996
Speaker 11: so I'm really excited.

477
00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:41,636
Speaker 1: It's April thirtieth, my Teresa's birthday.

478
00:31:42,276 --> 00:31:44,716
Speaker 11: She would have been thirty nine, which is so crazy

479
00:31:45,716 --> 00:31:49,076
Speaker 11: going through the pictures. I did my annual Facebook Instagram

480
00:31:49,196 --> 00:31:52,156
Speaker 11: posts and trying not to get chopped up, but just

481
00:31:52,196 --> 00:31:55,276
Speaker 11: seeing us so young and happy at prom and homecoming,

482
00:31:55,436 --> 00:31:58,516
Speaker 11: and you just think like we would have been celebrating

483
00:31:58,516 --> 00:32:00,196
Speaker 11: this the last year, your thirties.

484
00:32:01,596 --> 00:32:05,836
Speaker 1: Every year since my Teresa's disappearance, Jewel has celebrated her birthday.

485
00:32:05,996 --> 00:32:10,156
Speaker 11: Which ones are the biggest? I like those ones?

486
00:32:10,956 --> 00:32:11,956
Speaker 2: Huh.

487
00:32:12,116 --> 00:32:14,956
Speaker 1: She always starts with a big bouquet of sunflowers.

488
00:32:15,956 --> 00:32:21,276
Speaker 11: Thank you, thank you, so pretty.

489
00:32:22,316 --> 00:32:26,036
Speaker 1: Jule says she's reserved the afternoon for my teres. She

490
00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:28,476
Speaker 1: might go to the beach or take a dance class.

491
00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:31,596
Speaker 11: I just do whatever she does, like whatever she would do.

492
00:32:31,636 --> 00:32:35,596
Speaker 11: I'm like, just follow my Teresa's essence. Just let me

493
00:32:35,636 --> 00:32:38,116
Speaker 11: get through the work meetings and the day is yours girl.

494
00:32:39,156 --> 00:32:41,236
Speaker 1: We decided to stop for a cup of coffee.

495
00:32:41,596 --> 00:32:47,396
Speaker 9: Yes, I'm going to do watering coffee. That is perfect.

496
00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:51,516
Speaker 1: Yes, movies, I asked Jule What does she think my

497
00:32:51,596 --> 00:32:53,676
Speaker 1: teres would be doing at this point in her life.

498
00:32:54,516 --> 00:32:57,476
Speaker 11: I think about that all the time. I'm like, would

499
00:32:57,516 --> 00:32:58,516
Speaker 11: she be a teacher?

500
00:32:58,756 --> 00:33:00,236
Speaker 7: Would she be married?

501
00:33:00,476 --> 00:33:00,556
Speaker 3: Like?

502
00:33:00,716 --> 00:33:01,956
Speaker 11: What would be going on? Also?

503
00:33:02,116 --> 00:33:03,836
Speaker 7: Like society has changed so.

504
00:33:03,836 --> 00:33:07,076
Speaker 11: Much since then, So I'm like, you know, would she

505
00:33:07,116 --> 00:33:10,156
Speaker 11: have embraced her sexuality? Like? What other things would she be?

506
00:33:10,276 --> 00:33:10,356
Speaker 2: Like?

507
00:33:10,356 --> 00:33:13,436
Speaker 1: I have some jewels shows us the posts she made

508
00:33:13,476 --> 00:33:16,716
Speaker 1: on Instagram today, A collage of photos of her and

509
00:33:16,756 --> 00:33:17,196
Speaker 1: my trees.

510
00:33:18,116 --> 00:33:21,596
Speaker 11: Today we celebrate you. Your light will forever shine bright

511
00:33:21,676 --> 00:33:23,676
Speaker 11: and never be dimmed. No one will ever be able

512
00:33:23,716 --> 00:33:26,076
Speaker 11: to take away the amazing daughter or sister, in person

513
00:33:26,156 --> 00:33:28,556
Speaker 11: and friend that you are. I often think of all

514
00:33:28,596 --> 00:33:30,756
Speaker 11: the last we shared, what amazing things you would be

515
00:33:30,756 --> 00:33:33,276
Speaker 11: doing right now and how you would be positively changing

516
00:33:33,276 --> 00:33:36,996
Speaker 11: this crazy world with your gifts and talents. Sunflowers, Reggaetone

517
00:33:37,036 --> 00:33:39,356
Speaker 11: and Donnie Hathaway will fill the room, along with prayers

518
00:33:39,396 --> 00:33:41,556
Speaker 11: that whoever cut your life short will get the justice.

519
00:33:41,556 --> 00:33:48,556
Speaker 1: Baby Zert, what would justice for my terrace look like now?

520
00:33:49,876 --> 00:33:53,876
Speaker 1: The Sheriff's department basically declared her case unsolvable as soon

521
00:33:53,916 --> 00:33:57,356
Speaker 1: as her remains were found. I don't think the lost

522
00:33:57,396 --> 00:34:00,636
Speaker 1: Hill's deputies or anyone from the Sheriff's department had any

523
00:34:00,676 --> 00:34:04,356
Speaker 1: direct involvement with my Teres's death. But the rumors that

524
00:34:04,396 --> 00:34:08,236
Speaker 1: have always lingered around their culpability are not entirely baseless,

525
00:34:09,156 --> 00:34:12,476
Speaker 1: because even if they weren't responsible, they contributed to her

526
00:34:12,516 --> 00:34:17,756
Speaker 1: disappearance and then they failed to solve her death. It's

527
00:34:17,796 --> 00:34:20,236
Speaker 1: as if knowing that my race was in the midst

528
00:34:20,236 --> 00:34:24,116
Speaker 1: of a mental health crisis, law enforcement allowed that to

529
00:34:24,156 --> 00:34:28,596
Speaker 1: explain her death, instead of thinking her mental state made

530
00:34:28,636 --> 00:34:34,116
Speaker 1: her more vulnerable to a predator. No matter how accomplished,

531
00:34:34,316 --> 00:34:37,996
Speaker 1: how ambitious, how full of life my race was, she

532
00:34:38,116 --> 00:34:42,156
Speaker 1: was only an outsider in Malibu. There are very few

533
00:34:42,156 --> 00:34:46,516
Speaker 1: black people in Malibu, especially in Montanito, and I do

534
00:34:46,556 --> 00:34:49,716
Speaker 1: think my Teresa's race is a core reason her case

535
00:34:49,756 --> 00:34:53,956
Speaker 1: hasn't been solved. I've had current and former officers tell

536
00:34:53,996 --> 00:34:57,756
Speaker 1: me privately that to summon law enforcement, the death of

537
00:34:57,796 --> 00:35:03,156
Speaker 1: a mentally ill black woman needs no further explanation, almost

538
00:35:03,276 --> 00:35:06,436
Speaker 1: like what did she expect would happen? Showing up that

539
00:35:06,556 --> 00:35:13,356
Speaker 1: way in Malibu? And then you have Rick Forsberg, half

540
00:35:13,476 --> 00:35:19,276
Speaker 1: California Golden Boy, half monster. As much as he hated

541
00:35:19,396 --> 00:35:22,196
Speaker 1: and was hated by the cops in Malibu. As much

542
00:35:22,236 --> 00:35:24,996
Speaker 1: pain as he inflicted, as much as he took from

543
00:35:25,036 --> 00:35:28,276
Speaker 1: the beautiful place he grew up, he was still more

544
00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:33,116
Speaker 1: protected than my Trice could ever be. So what would

545
00:35:33,276 --> 00:35:38,036
Speaker 1: justice look like? Practically? To solve the case would require

546
00:35:38,076 --> 00:35:42,076
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Modica from Homicide to assign a new investigator who

547
00:35:42,076 --> 00:35:46,436
Speaker 1: would interview and reinterview everyone associated with it in an

548
00:35:46,476 --> 00:35:49,196
Speaker 1: attempt to answer some of the questions that are still

549
00:35:49,276 --> 00:35:53,836
Speaker 1: gaps for us. It would take thorough forensic processing of

550
00:35:53,916 --> 00:35:59,716
Speaker 1: Rick's fort, including DNA testing of everything we collected. That

551
00:35:59,996 --> 00:36:04,116
Speaker 1: former LAPD cold case detective I talked to, who basically

552
00:36:04,116 --> 00:36:07,516
Speaker 1: said this was a lost cause, told me that to

553
00:36:07,556 --> 00:36:10,836
Speaker 1: solve the case, I'd need to find a retired Sheriff's

554
00:36:10,876 --> 00:36:14,996
Speaker 1: Department homicide detective who'd taken home the case file and

555
00:36:15,116 --> 00:36:19,636
Speaker 1: hated the department enough to leak it to me. I disagree.

556
00:36:20,636 --> 00:36:24,716
Speaker 1: I think it would just take one current homicide investigator

557
00:36:24,996 --> 00:36:27,836
Speaker 1: who believes in what the Sheriff's Department is supposed to

558
00:36:27,876 --> 00:36:32,796
Speaker 1: stand for. But the department has rebuffed every single overture

559
00:36:32,836 --> 00:36:37,476
Speaker 1: we've made, from fact finding to fact checking to fact sharing.

560
00:36:38,556 --> 00:36:44,916
Speaker 1: They have my number. If they want to call. We

561
00:36:44,996 --> 00:36:47,636
Speaker 1: packed up my Teresa's hairbrush and a few other items

562
00:36:47,676 --> 00:36:50,236
Speaker 1: of hers we'd borrowed from Michael and brought them back

563
00:36:50,276 --> 00:36:53,956
Speaker 1: to him. It was hard telling him that we didn't

564
00:36:53,956 --> 00:36:58,596
Speaker 1: get the answer we'd all wanted so badly. But Michael

565
00:36:58,676 --> 00:37:01,276
Speaker 1: has a broader view of crime and punishment than he

566
00:37:01,356 --> 00:37:05,396
Speaker 1: once did. He tells us he used to dream of

567
00:37:05,436 --> 00:37:09,316
Speaker 1: facing off against my Teresa's killer in a courtroom, whoever

568
00:37:09,396 --> 00:37:12,636
Speaker 1: he was, and attacking him with his bare hands.

569
00:37:14,476 --> 00:37:18,756
Speaker 2: And for some reason, I said to myself, I can

570
00:37:18,836 --> 00:37:22,756
Speaker 2: always hear my child saying to me that it's not

571
00:37:22,836 --> 00:37:23,556
Speaker 2: even worth it.

572
00:37:24,836 --> 00:37:27,556
Speaker 1: Michael no longer wants revenge.

573
00:37:27,836 --> 00:37:32,076
Speaker 2: The universe will handle it because everyone who's done something

574
00:37:32,116 --> 00:37:34,996
Speaker 2: bad to me, mistreated me, took advantage of me, and

575
00:37:35,036 --> 00:37:38,116
Speaker 2: whatever I have been, I don't want to say blessed,

576
00:37:38,116 --> 00:37:42,796
Speaker 2: but I have seen them in their demise. Karma doesn't

577
00:37:42,916 --> 00:37:46,436
Speaker 2: work right away, or people will stop doing bad things.

578
00:37:46,956 --> 00:37:51,876
Speaker 2: But if you have the patience to wait, if you're blessed,

579
00:37:51,916 --> 00:37:54,956
Speaker 2: you will see it happen to him. You cannot put

580
00:37:55,156 --> 00:37:59,436
Speaker 2: negative in this world and expect positive returns.

581
00:38:01,276 --> 00:38:04,156
Speaker 1: He believes his daughter was the victim of a murderer

582
00:38:04,356 --> 00:38:08,756
Speaker 1: who never paid for his heinous crime. But he says

583
00:38:09,716 --> 00:38:13,156
Speaker 1: my trace wasn't the only victim.

584
00:38:13,316 --> 00:38:17,236
Speaker 2: And an ancient proverb says, if you kill a person,

585
00:38:18,196 --> 00:38:20,356
Speaker 2: dig two graves because you're next.

586
00:38:24,356 --> 00:38:30,196
Speaker 1: A murderer destroys his own life too, and that may

587
00:38:30,236 --> 00:38:45,756
Speaker 1: be the best justice. I'm Dana Goodyear. This has been

588
00:38:45,836 --> 00:39:15,836
Speaker 1: Lost Hill's season four Dark Canyon. Way back in episode one,

589
00:39:16,116 --> 00:39:20,516
Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist in my Teresa's case told us, despite everything,

590
00:39:21,076 --> 00:39:25,156
Speaker 1: my Teresa's case is still solvable. It will just take

591
00:39:25,236 --> 00:39:26,196
Speaker 1: the right information.

592
00:39:27,796 --> 00:39:33,396
Speaker 7: If there was foul play involved, someone could confess. You

593
00:39:33,516 --> 00:39:39,116
Speaker 7: never know, could be deathbed confession. Maybe they'll raid somewhere

594
00:39:39,316 --> 00:39:44,476
Speaker 7: someplace and they'll find pictures of her. But anything is possible.

595
00:39:44,956 --> 00:39:49,036
Speaker 7: Sometimes killers will save souvenirs that can be recognized as

596
00:39:49,076 --> 00:39:52,076
Speaker 7: something from the person. Anything like that could happen.

597
00:39:53,236 --> 00:39:55,596
Speaker 1: We've spoken with a lot of people about my Terse

598
00:39:55,676 --> 00:39:58,716
Speaker 1: and about Rick Forsberg, and I know there are still

599
00:39:58,756 --> 00:40:03,516
Speaker 1: more people with more information. This message is for them.

600
00:40:04,156 --> 00:40:06,636
Speaker 1: We've set up a phone number you can call or text.

601
00:40:07,076 --> 00:40:10,756
Speaker 1: It's two one, three three four six oh five OHO.

602
00:40:11,716 --> 00:40:14,876
Speaker 1: There's also an email you can write too. Lost Hills

603
00:40:14,876 --> 00:40:28,756
Speaker 1: at Western dashsound dot com Lost Hill's Dark Canyon is

604
00:40:28,796 --> 00:40:32,596
Speaker 1: hosted and written by Me Dana Goodyear. The creators and

605
00:40:32,676 --> 00:40:36,116
Speaker 1: executive producers of Lost Hills are Me and Ben Adair.

606
00:40:36,836 --> 00:40:40,596
Speaker 1: The show was reported by Me and Hailey Fox. Hailey

607
00:40:40,636 --> 00:40:44,756
Speaker 1: Fox is also the senior producer. Ben Adair and Colin

608
00:40:44,836 --> 00:40:49,476
Speaker 1: McNulty edited the show. Stella Hartman is the associate producer.

609
00:40:50,436 --> 00:40:54,276
Speaker 1: The production team also includes Sabrina Fang, Sarah Deeley, and

610
00:40:54,356 --> 00:40:59,836
Speaker 1: Savannah Wright. Fact checking is by a len Werner. Original composition,

611
00:41:00,076 --> 00:41:03,996
Speaker 1: sound design and mixing is by Alex McGinnis. The Lost

612
00:41:04,076 --> 00:41:07,756
Speaker 1: Hills theme is by Dan Leone. Our cover art is

613
00:41:07,756 --> 00:41:12,196
Speaker 1: by Francesca Gabiani. The voice of my Terse Richardson was

614
00:41:12,236 --> 00:41:17,836
Speaker 1: read by Pepa Voss from Pushkin Industries. Additional story consulting

615
00:41:18,076 --> 00:41:21,836
Speaker 1: is by Sophie Crane and Leela Day. The executive producer

616
00:41:21,836 --> 00:41:26,316
Speaker 1: from Pushkin is Jacob Smith. Special thanks to the Pushkin

617
00:41:26,396 --> 00:41:32,676
Speaker 1: team Eric Sandler, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Sean Carney, Jake Flanagan,

618
00:41:32,916 --> 00:41:38,996
Speaker 1: Christina Sullivan, Carrie Brody, Sarah Nix and Greta Cone. Lost

619
00:41:39,036 --> 00:41:42,476
Speaker 1: Hills is a production of Western Sound and Pushkin Industries.

620
00:41:43,316 --> 00:41:47,276
Speaker 1: You can sign up for Westernsounds Newsletter at Western Dashsound

621
00:41:47,476 --> 00:41:53,476
Speaker 1: dot com. Pushkin's newsletter is at pushkin dot fm. Follow

622
00:41:53,556 --> 00:41:57,036
Speaker 1: at Lost Hills Pod on social media, and please remember

623
00:41:57,116 --> 00:41:59,676
Speaker 1: to rate and review the show in your podcast app.

624
00:42:00,476 --> 00:42:04,036
Speaker 1: Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can binge entire seasons

625
00:42:04,076 --> 00:42:08,716
Speaker 1: of other podcasts right now ad free. Find Pushkin Plus

626
00:42:08,716 --> 00:42:11,316
Speaker 1: on the law Till Show page in Apple Podcasts or

627
00:42:11,356 --> 00:42:16,636
Speaker 1: at pushkin dot fm slash plus. To find more Pushkin podcasts,

628
00:42:16,796 --> 00:42:20,636
Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

629
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Speaker 1: listen to podcasts,