WEBVTT - Chappaquiddick & The Real Reason Ted Kennedy Never Became President (with Pete Holmes)

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<v Speaker 1>What's funny is I have all these quotes on my mirror,

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<v Speaker 1>things that I try to hold in my heart, But

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<v Speaker 1>every once in a while I'll also write, like a joke, idea,

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<v Speaker 1>Oh cool, So right now my mirror says like what's

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<v Speaker 1>wrong with right now?

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<v Speaker 2>If you don't think about it?

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<v Speaker 1>And then like right beneath it, it says plan B pill.

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<v Speaker 2>But for food they have that it's called xlax. Oh

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<v Speaker 2>my god. Welcome to SNAPO, the podcast about History's greatest

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<v Speaker 2>screw ups. I'm your host at Helms. Each episode, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>joined by a guest and we dive into a wacky

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<v Speaker 2>story from history, and along the way we shoot the

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<v Speaker 2>shit and wonder why humanity keeps keeps fucking up so badly.

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<v Speaker 2>My guest today is stand up comedian, podcast host, and

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<v Speaker 2>voiceover artist, cartoonist. You might know him from his fabulous

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<v Speaker 2>HBO show Crashing, his New Yorker cartoons, his podcast You

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<v Speaker 2>Made It Weird, his book comedy Sex God, or the

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<v Speaker 2>Pete Holmes Show which I just spoiled. Who it is?

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<v Speaker 2>It's the wonderful and the fabulous, dear old friend of mine,

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<v Speaker 2>Pete Holmes. Welcome, Pete.

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<v Speaker 1>Happy to be here. And I don't think you broke

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<v Speaker 1>the rules of an intro. You can do that. You

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<v Speaker 1>can say from the Pete Holmes Show without being like

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<v Speaker 1>website blew it.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm saying I think you can, because what you're touching

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<v Speaker 1>on is performers. Like if you do a gig, which

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you do from time to time, NBC calls

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<v Speaker 1>in for a favor. They wanted to give a golden

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<v Speaker 1>chocolate key to Pete and you have to be there.

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<v Speaker 1>The intro is typically awful and they'll be like Ed

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<v Speaker 1>Helms is our esteemed speaker, and it's like there's nowhere

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<v Speaker 1>to go from there.

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<v Speaker 2>All right. You can't say the name first. Yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 2>always a corporate mistake. You can't unwrap the present for

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<v Speaker 2>your kid and go and it's a bike. But you're

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<v Speaker 2>telling me I can't. I am allowed to say the

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<v Speaker 2>Pete Holmes Show can. But you did it perfectly because

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<v Speaker 2>you said it at the end. All right, Yeah, there

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<v Speaker 2>you go. Thank there's like a little oh it is him.

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<v Speaker 2>I used to MC a lot when I was first

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<v Speaker 2>starting out and stand up, and I learned that rule

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<v Speaker 2>very quickly, that like the name comes last, always it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't even matter the context. You can be like giving

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<v Speaker 2>a medical presentation at some the esteemed professor. Yeah yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and always well, you know, speaking of MCing and we

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<v Speaker 2>will get to the premise of this show. But as

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<v Speaker 2>a Daily show fella.

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<v Speaker 1>I would be mceing and John Oliver was there, and

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<v Speaker 1>he would say, please, if you say from the Daily Show,

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<v Speaker 1>say my name right away. Don't say John, oh right, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and you would.

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<v Speaker 2>Go out to a round say my name right right

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<v Speaker 2>right away, say John, and then Paul's because I'll think

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<v Speaker 2>it's Stuart. Yea, oh, that's so great. Here's something that

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<v Speaker 2>I am not familiar with in your background, and I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know how significant it is, but I like it

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<v Speaker 2>a lot. And this is the cartooning, like what is

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<v Speaker 2>what role did that play? And you did have some

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<v Speaker 2>published in The New Yorker. So first of all, kudos,

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<v Speaker 2>that's very very cool, thank you. And second of all,

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<v Speaker 2>I've often wondered this, in what format do you submit?

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<v Speaker 2>It's a great question.

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<v Speaker 1>I think at my level, which was the new guy,

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<v Speaker 1>I would turn in twelve to ten to fifteen finished

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<v Speaker 1>like pieces because they I wasn't Jack Ziegeler.

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<v Speaker 2>I think if you're Jack Ziegler.

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<v Speaker 1>It could be more of a sketch, and it's like,

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<v Speaker 1>this is the gag, but they need to see that

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<v Speaker 1>I could do the art.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd go to the Kandye Nest building. I'd have my roughs.

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<v Speaker 1>Then I would go to the Xerox machine and I

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<v Speaker 1>would photocopy them with the contrast kicked up, so the

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<v Speaker 1>blacks would be really black and the whites would be

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<v Speaker 1>really white, and it would look about a thousand times better.

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<v Speaker 1>And I would print the caption in the same font

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<v Speaker 1>that the magazine used in italics, just.

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<v Speaker 2>To make it look like I'm charm Ledge.

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<v Speaker 1>All of that is unnecessary, And I was just, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm twenty five. I'm looking for like legitimacy. So I

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<v Speaker 1>made them look as much as I could like a

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<v Speaker 1>New Yorker cartoon.

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<v Speaker 2>The New Yorker was had a very sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>meaningful place in my household. This is so cool. My

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<v Speaker 2>grandmother in Nashville, their kitchen was wallpapered with New Yorker

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<v Speaker 2>covers from like the forties and fifties.

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<v Speaker 1>It was like Playboy for culture. Instead of boobs. You

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<v Speaker 1>saw like a story from like a brilliant author. It's

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<v Speaker 1>like New York.

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<v Speaker 2>The city accepted you.

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<v Speaker 1>I had hundreds of cartoons that I had drawn at

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<v Speaker 1>that point, and I was like, I've always wanted to submit.

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<v Speaker 1>I did it for over a year, so that's over

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<v Speaker 1>five hundred submissions, and they hadn't bought one.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>And the first time I sold one, the cartoon was

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<v Speaker 1>a guy in therapy and he just has a vacant

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<v Speaker 1>look on his face and the therapist is taking notes

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<v Speaker 1>and he says, I think I accidentally suppressed my good memories,

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<v Speaker 1>which is just so New Yorker.

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<v Speaker 2>Let you laugh a little. It's like a subway.

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<v Speaker 1>Polite laugh and if you're not going to disturb anyone

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<v Speaker 1>on the subway with this leaf, just a chuckle. And

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<v Speaker 1>when I sold my first one, I was living in

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<v Speaker 1>Park Slope. I woke up like super early, it was

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<v Speaker 1>still dark and walked to the newsstand and bought the copy,

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<v Speaker 1>like several copies.

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<v Speaker 2>So cool. It was a thrill, a thrill that's so

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<v Speaker 2>so cool. I'm proud of twenty five year old Pete

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<v Speaker 2>in that moment. That's really sweet. Well, hey, we got

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<v Speaker 2>to get into this, nat Foo. I could talk all

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<v Speaker 2>day about that, I know. And you're amazing your really

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<v Speaker 2>wonderful career and all the cool stuff you've been doing.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's a different podcast. Today's SNAFU is an interesting

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<v Speaker 2>one because I came into it with a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>of a head start, because I start in a freaking

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<v Speaker 2>movie about this SNAPHO in twenty seventeen. Now I know

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<v Speaker 2>you have my entire filmography memorized, So I'm gonna give

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<v Speaker 2>you one guess with do you know any idea what

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<v Speaker 2>movie this is?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just gonna name Ed Helms movies, theeter Rappaz that's

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<v Speaker 1>like two thousand and seven.

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<v Speaker 2>I was in a movie in twenty seventeen called chap

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<v Speaker 2>Equidic and it is. I didn't know you were in that. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>Jim Gaffigan and I sort of play Ted Kennedy's or

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<v Speaker 2>sort of like the two guys that are that go

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<v Speaker 2>through this whole thing with him, and it's a tragic,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a messy, deeply controversial incident from nineteen sixty nine.

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<v Speaker 2>I mentioned Ted Kennedy. Of course, he's played by Jason

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<v Speaker 2>Clark fabulously in the movie. I actually play his cousin,

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<v Speaker 2>Joe Gargan, who we will meet in a bit, And

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<v Speaker 2>like a lot of snapfhoos. This is just a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of bad decisions or may then things went terribly Can I.

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<v Speaker 1>Say I'm thrilled. I'm from Boston, so I'm from New England.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know this story.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh great, all right, this is perfect and I should

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<v Speaker 2>and you're gonna have like more like probably some better insight,

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<v Speaker 2>especially into the sort of Kennedy context, yah being a

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<v Speaker 2>being a Bostonian. So first, a quick explanation of the

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<v Speaker 2>word chap Equittic. It's the name of a small quiet

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<v Speaker 2>island right off of Martha's Vineyard, which is a large

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<v Speaker 2>island right off of Cape Cod in the great state

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<v Speaker 2>of Massachusetts. Vacation. Yeah, where in Cape con Or.

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<v Speaker 1>We would go to Cape Cod and we would take

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<v Speaker 1>the Island Queen, which was a ferry to Martha's Vineyard.

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<v Speaker 2>Perfect, we would just spend the day there. And which

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<v Speaker 2>town do you remember in Martha's Vineyard? Yeah? Something, Just kidding, Well,

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<v Speaker 2>chep Equitic's interesting because it's not a town that you

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<v Speaker 2>that that most people go to, or it's not a town.

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<v Speaker 2>It's an island and it's and it's it's a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit off the beaten path. It's chappy to the locals.

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<v Speaker 2>It's known for its secluded beaches, happy dirt roads, very

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<v Speaker 2>low key old money summer vibes. It's beautiful and remote

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<v Speaker 2>and about as far from chaos as you can get,

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<v Speaker 2>which makes what happened there in nineteen sixty nine all

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<v Speaker 2>the more unsettling. Martha's Vineyard is a really nice, i think,

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<v Speaker 2>very diverse mix of vacationers from all different backgrounds. There

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<v Speaker 2>are enclaves within Martha's Vineyard that are just real old money,

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<v Speaker 2>like really really wealthy. And then of course chap Equidic

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<v Speaker 2>has so few homes on it, but it does have

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<v Speaker 2>a number of but they're more sort of cottagy, and

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<v Speaker 2>some of that is also very old money, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>sort of like low key old money, do you know

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<v Speaker 2>what I mean. It's like the billionaire who wants kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a wind swept cottage instead of like a mansion.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's pivot to the Kennedy's here. Of course, most folks

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<v Speaker 2>are familiar with John F. Kennedy, a phenomenal career and

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<v Speaker 2>legacy a president, of course, but the youngest brother of

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<v Speaker 2>the Kennedy family was Edward M. Kennedy nicknamed Ted. Born

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<v Speaker 2>February twenty second, nineteen thirty two in Boston, Massachusetts. And uh,

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<v Speaker 2>he was the youngest of nine children. That's right, yes, nine,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a lot. How many in your how many?

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<v Speaker 2>How many subjects? You're you're one of two old fat Protestant. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>it's funny.

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<v Speaker 1>My parents were Catholic. I don't know why they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have more kids. I guess after they had ud they

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<v Speaker 1>were like, that's enough.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that'll that'll do. Yeah. But are you the younger?

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<v Speaker 2>Are you the one the younger? Yeah? Same here, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>the youngest of three, and I think both we're both

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<v Speaker 2>both that kid that they're just like, cut it off,

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<v Speaker 2>cut it off, looking at we can't do like this

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<v Speaker 2>kid's paying out. We got enough show, we're out, We're done.

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<v Speaker 2>So the roster of Kennedy kids included Joe Junior, the

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<v Speaker 2>eldest brother of of course, John F. Rose, Kathleen Eunice, Patricia,

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<v Speaker 2>Robert Jean, and then good old Ted. Here's a nice

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<v Speaker 2>vintage photo of Teddy. This is not a childhood photo.

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<v Speaker 2>I just want to be clear. There's gimlets just off camera.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, they're trash, pickled onion, Like I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>this story. And I actually don't really follow the Kennedys,

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<v Speaker 1>so I wasn't even making Ted loves to drink.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he's also just of a generation that that's

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<v Speaker 2>sort of where I was going.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like pickled onions and little vodka are nearby and cigarettes.

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<v Speaker 2>This was. I have photos of my dad exactly like this. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, and he was trashed a lot, which back

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<v Speaker 2>then like you just were like, hello, good to see you, Irene.

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<v Speaker 1>You know what I mean exactly like anybody at that

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<v Speaker 1>level of drunkeness.

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<v Speaker 2>Now you'd be like I shouldn't be here totally. Yeah. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know how they did it because like the

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<v Speaker 2>hangovers alone or just like I don't know, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>even drink anymore, just because I can't handle it because

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<v Speaker 2>of It's just.

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<v Speaker 1>I have an old joke where I was like in

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<v Speaker 1>the wild West, for example, you know how they're always

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<v Speaker 1>drinking whiskey. I'm like, you're in the desert. Yeah, this

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<v Speaker 1>is why you're shooting each other. You're dehydrated, Like, get

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<v Speaker 1>some water. That's how I feel about this time. These

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<v Speaker 1>guys were eating red meat exclusively, maybe a wedge salad

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<v Speaker 1>covered in blue cheese. That was like, what are you

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<v Speaker 1>health nutt Yeah, and like seven vodka gimlets and a

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<v Speaker 1>cigarette before the meal.

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<v Speaker 2>I just imagine how they dissipated. They were all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Just a lot of fiber in these diets past the

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<v Speaker 2>age of seven. None of them had a glorious BM. No,

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<v Speaker 2>so we gotta keep going. Born February twenty second, nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>thirty two, Ted was bread for American politics and high society.

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<v Speaker 2>Now I'm talking Harvard, then a quick stint in the

0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.480
<v Speaker 2>army nineteen fifty one to fifty three, then back to Harvard,

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<v Speaker 2>then University of virgin Law School. Now this resume is

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<v Speaker 2>looking very respectable and on brand for society's upper crust

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<v Speaker 2>at the time. Then in nineteen sixty two, he was

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<v Speaker 2>elected to the US Senate, stepping into the Massachusetts seat

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<v Speaker 2>his older brother, John F. Kennedy had vacated after, you know,

0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.840
<v Speaker 2>becoming President of the United States. Did your parents breed

0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:25.760
<v Speaker 2>you for anything or the aspirations they bred you for?

0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Should I stop using the word breed? So he bred,

0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.600
<v Speaker 2>He was basically bred. He was a third BRANCHI the shadow.

0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.720
<v Speaker 2>You're taking a chair that John F. Kennedy. Well, also

0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:44.840
<v Speaker 2>their father, Joe Kennedy, was was just a crazy, intense motherfucker.

0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.040
<v Speaker 2>Like there's a there's a great biography on him, but

0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.920
<v Speaker 2>he was like he was a Hollywood producer. He was

0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:54.079
<v Speaker 2>in them. He was kind of mafia related. And then

0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.559
<v Speaker 2>he became obsessed with sort of raising his children to

0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.880
<v Speaker 2>become sort of citizen activists, policy Titians and tiger Woods.

0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.040
<v Speaker 1>Like when you breed a child to like do a

0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:08.040
<v Speaker 1>certain thing with the Jackson five or whatever like that.

0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.400
<v Speaker 1>It was that level of like you're going to be

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.440
<v Speaker 1>upper crust basically, it was yeah.

0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:14.600
<v Speaker 2>And then and he saw I think he also was

0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:16.960
<v Speaker 2>involved in bootlegging at some time, so he was like

0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.240
<v Speaker 2>he was dodgy, but he sort of knew the lane

0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.440
<v Speaker 2>that he wanted his family to be. And he became

0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.960
<v Speaker 2>an ambassador, I think to the UK. Anyway, his story

0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:30.480
<v Speaker 2>is wild, and he just became this grand puppeteer of

0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Massachusetts politics. So Ted certainly made his time in Congress

0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.360
<v Speaker 2>count as he backed some genuinely consequential causes. He championed

0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.319
<v Speaker 2>the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four, he supported

0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:45.000
<v Speaker 2>the Economic Opportunity Act to fight poverty, and he helped

0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:49.079
<v Speaker 2>usher in a national health center system in nineteen sixty six.

0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.320
<v Speaker 2>These guys were very progressive, especially at that at the time,

0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:56.440
<v Speaker 2>all the Kennedys were people all over liked Ted. He

0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:58.480
<v Speaker 2>was charming, he was easy to talk to, he was passionate,

0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.000
<v Speaker 2>he was able to forge relationships cross party lines to

0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.760
<v Speaker 2>get shit done. Eventually died in two thousand and nine

0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.760
<v Speaker 2>with a reputation as the Lion of the Senate. That

0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:08.840
<v Speaker 2>was sort of his nickname because he got so much

0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.720
<v Speaker 2>legislation done over the course of his career. But being

0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:14.920
<v Speaker 2>a Kennedy, you know, it's a lot of luck, it's

0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.520
<v Speaker 2>a lot of privilege, and it's a lot of legacy

0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.280
<v Speaker 2>sort of carrying you forward. But also Ted lost three

0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:24.600
<v Speaker 2>of his older brothers, Joe Junior, the oldest, died as

0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:26.880
<v Speaker 2>a pilot in World War Two in nineteen forty four,

0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:31.040
<v Speaker 2>which was that was the first Kennedy death. President John F.

0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Kennedy of course, assassinated on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three.

0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:39.440
<v Speaker 2>Then RFK, who really was beloved and really was like

0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.040
<v Speaker 2>people were so passionate about him and working hard for him,

0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.280
<v Speaker 2>and he's actually his shadows is sort of cast over

0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.000
<v Speaker 2>chap equittic in an interesting way that we'll get to

0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:55.000
<v Speaker 2>but he was a former attorney general eventual Democratic presidential candidate,

0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.280
<v Speaker 2>and he was gunned down on the campaign trail on

0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.960
<v Speaker 2>June fifth, nineteen sixty sixty eight. So Teddy Nity has

0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:05.040
<v Speaker 2>lost three older brothers, all to violence, right, I mean,

0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.280
<v Speaker 2>even being downed as a pilot in an a war is

0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.120
<v Speaker 2>a violent demise. This of course led to the Kennedy

0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.239
<v Speaker 2>curse as a concept. People you know, thought, oh, the Kennedys,

0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.240
<v Speaker 2>they're a band named the Dead Kennedy's. Of course, Oh yeah,

0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.240
<v Speaker 2>this is a Do you believe in curses, Pete? Are

0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.760
<v Speaker 2>you a cursed guy or you? I believe in the

0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:29.520
<v Speaker 2>human mind's obsession with finding patterns. I like that, yeah,

0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:33.040
<v Speaker 2>but also our ability to kind of like manifest things

0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.960
<v Speaker 2>that we believe are But yeah, with you, you just

0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.520
<v Speaker 2>hit the nail on the head. Really, what we're good at,

0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.880
<v Speaker 2>and I think to a fault is pattern recognition, and

0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:47.160
<v Speaker 2>we ascribe patterns to things where they just aren't. That's

0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.400
<v Speaker 2>absolutely true, and that could be interpreted as a curse.

0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:51.560
<v Speaker 2>It is a curse.

0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.240
<v Speaker 1>I would actually get incredibly liberal with this, saying it's

0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.480
<v Speaker 1>not just that curses ripple out and change the course

0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:01.600
<v Speaker 1>of history. Everything ripples out and changes human history.

0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:05.560
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Pete, that's that's too far. You took it too far. Man,

0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Come on, man, what are you talking about? Bro? See

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.400
<v Speaker 2>you saying that I'm more likely to smoke weed later.

0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:25.800
<v Speaker 2>That's uh, that's my favorite character, weed smoking gug. After

0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.440
<v Speaker 2>the back to back assassinations of JFK and RFK, Hubert

0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Humphrey took the Democratic nomination but lost to Richard Nixon,

0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.040
<v Speaker 2>leaving the party scrambling for a new identity, and they

0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.720
<v Speaker 2>were ready for another the third Kennedy to step in.

0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:40.880
<v Speaker 2>There was a lot of sort of ground swell and

0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.240
<v Speaker 2>momentum to just be like, we love the Kennedy's. Let's

0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:47.800
<v Speaker 2>get Teddy in there. Uh Now, Teddy was He was reluctant,

0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:52.160
<v Speaker 2>He was not sure about taking the baton, and he admitted, uh, quote,

0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:56.240
<v Speaker 2>the disadvantage of my position is being constantly compared with

0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:00.160
<v Speaker 2>two brothers of such superior ability. I love that quot

0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:05.440
<v Speaker 2>because it does so many things. It's simultaneously like reverent

0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.159
<v Speaker 2>to his two brothers, who were really amazing in a

0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:14.119
<v Speaker 2>lot of ways, and also it's self deprecating in a

0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:18.159
<v Speaker 2>sort of cheeky way. And then which kind of lowers

0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.040
<v Speaker 2>the bar for him, and then it also sort of

0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:24.800
<v Speaker 2>chastises the media for even making the comparisons in the

0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.120
<v Speaker 2>first place. Totally, it's such good writing, and the Kennedy's

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.879
<v Speaker 2>had the best writers in political history. Ted Sorenson was

0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:36.280
<v Speaker 2>famously speech writer, wrote a lot of JFK's stuff and

0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.200
<v Speaker 2>then rfk's stuff, and will meet some of the people

0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.880
<v Speaker 2>that worked in in speech writing for RFK in a minute.

0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:48.199
<v Speaker 2>Take a note, Baldwins. Yeah, there you go, take a

0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.560
<v Speaker 2>note exactly. But a lot of John F. Kennedy's speeches

0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.720
<v Speaker 2>are so famous for good reason. They're really sort of

0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:59.879
<v Speaker 2>poignant expressions of values and whether you agree with them

0:17:59.960 --> 0:18:00.199
<v Speaker 2>or not.

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.359
<v Speaker 1>And to the nations of the world, ask not what

0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.640
<v Speaker 1>the United States can do for you, but ask what we,

0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.639
<v Speaker 1>as the world what can do for the betterment of

0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:09.240
<v Speaker 1>human kind?

0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:11.760
<v Speaker 2>And something like that. I fucked it up. It's close,

0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:13.600
<v Speaker 2>it's close enough, and by the way, we al forget that.

0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:16.920
<v Speaker 2>So that was more Mayor Quimby than John F. Kennedy.

0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.360
<v Speaker 2>Show a wait. So this is funny to me. Part

0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.159
<v Speaker 2>of what makes your podcast so fun to listen to,

0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.040
<v Speaker 2>and I think it also makes you such a great guest,

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:31.280
<v Speaker 2>as on podcasts, is you have an encyclopedic memory for

0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.879
<v Speaker 2>quotations and citations? And I wonder, and I have the

0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:37.920
<v Speaker 2>memory of a goldfish, Like I can't remember any I

0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:42.040
<v Speaker 2>can't even remember the podcast I did last week? And

0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:44.639
<v Speaker 2>and so I wonder, is there a process to that?

0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.400
<v Speaker 2>Do you take notes? Or is it sort of effortless?

0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Like what is the you know what's funny about that?

0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:52.320
<v Speaker 1>You and I have talked about that before, because I

0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:54.920
<v Speaker 1>remember it being meaningful, a meaningful compliment to me the

0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 1>last time we spoke about it. It is from effort somewhat.

0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.760
<v Speaker 1>I am big highlighter and I write.

0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Things on my bathroom mirror.

0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.359
<v Speaker 1>You get white chalk markers, and I write, what's funny

0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.480
<v Speaker 1>is I have all these quotes on my mirror, things

0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:10.160
<v Speaker 1>that I try to hold in my heart. But every

0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.280
<v Speaker 1>once in a while, I'll also write, like a joke, idea,

0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:16.720
<v Speaker 1>Oh cool, So right now my mirror says like what's

0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:17.560
<v Speaker 1>wrong with right now?

0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:18.679
<v Speaker 2>If you don't think about it?

0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.680
<v Speaker 1>And then like right beneath it, it says plan B pill.

0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:23.960
<v Speaker 1>But for food.

0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:31.840
<v Speaker 2>They have that it's called xlax. Oh my god, that's

0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.560
<v Speaker 2>so I'm now I'm picturing your your home is like

0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.120
<v Speaker 2>is very much serial killer vibes with just like writing

0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:39.119
<v Speaker 2>all over the mirrors.

0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.000
<v Speaker 1>You just have to own it. You just have to

0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.880
<v Speaker 1>own that, like that's that's awesome. I'm a crazy person

0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:44.840
<v Speaker 1>that writes on my mirror.

0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:45.199
<v Speaker 2>But it's not.

0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:49.160
<v Speaker 1>It's me Goodwill hunting Jesse Eisenberg in the social network.

0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:51.560
<v Speaker 2>And the thing we all have in common is we

0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:55.479
<v Speaker 2>remember a lot of quotes. That's awesome. I really envy that.

0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.959
<v Speaker 2>Of the two brothers, it seems Robert F. Kennedy had

0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.240
<v Speaker 2>the strongest impact on Ted's political identity. A nineteen seventy

0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.560
<v Speaker 2>two New York Times piece notes that when Ted entered

0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.240
<v Speaker 2>the Senate at thirty in nineteen sixty three, he was

0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:09.480
<v Speaker 2>bright eyed, bushy tailed, and ready to play ball with

0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:12.879
<v Speaker 2>the establishment. But by the time RFK was assassinated in

0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:16.960
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty eight, Teddy had veered noticeably left, picking up

0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.199
<v Speaker 2>Rfk's anti Vietnam crusade and, as the Times put it,

0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:26.240
<v Speaker 2>quote embodying the Kennedy legacy of concerned activism. Now, despite

0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:30.359
<v Speaker 2>Ted's reluctance at first to be the Democratic Party's poster boy,

0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:32.720
<v Speaker 2>by nineteen sixty nine he was on a fast track

0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:34.760
<v Speaker 2>to political stardom, which was no small feat in a

0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.399
<v Speaker 2>year marked by surging counterculture and widespread unrest over the

0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:41.239
<v Speaker 2>Vietnam War. With his eye on the nineteen seventy two

0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:45.360
<v Speaker 2>presidential race, he was poised to make a real impact.

0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:50.760
<v Speaker 2>But first a little vacation. On a hot July weekend

0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.439
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen sixty nine, Ted headed to Martha's Vineyard, a

0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:57.040
<v Speaker 2>familiar family refuge for the Kennedy's and just a very

0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:00.600
<v Speaker 2>short trip from their fabled compound in Hyannas Port on

0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:05.080
<v Speaker 2>kate Cod. It's Hyanna's Pot, the summer white House, as

0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:06.720
<v Speaker 2>it was called. It was the mar A lago of

0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.840
<v Speaker 2>its day. Oh yeah, it really was. It's sort of

0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:11.959
<v Speaker 2>I think I feel like mar A Lago Is is

0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:16.040
<v Speaker 2>sort of a a descendant of Hyanna's Port because you

0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:19.399
<v Speaker 2>have Robert Yeah RFK place. Yeah, John F. John F.

0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.240
<v Speaker 2>Kennedy did a lot of presidential work from that compound

0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:24.560
<v Speaker 2>in Hyanna's Port.

0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:26.560
<v Speaker 1>Because what is the one that all the presidents have.

0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.399
<v Speaker 1>It's like a for Camp David Camp David. Yeah, but

0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:32.440
<v Speaker 1>you know only the hacks go to Camp David.

0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:37.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. You got to have your own his ranch, your

0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:39.880
<v Speaker 2>own now come you gotta have your own. So this

0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.000
<v Speaker 2>particular weekend, Teddy was planning to race in the forty

0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:47.840
<v Speaker 2>third annual edgar Town Yacht Club Regatta aboard the family boat,

0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.520
<v Speaker 2>the Victurau. He was joined, these are beautiful old wooden sailboats.

0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:54.840
<v Speaker 2>By the way, we got to we got to do this.

0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.119
<v Speaker 2>In the movie, we depicted the regatta and they're just

0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:02.840
<v Speaker 2>these gorgeous old uh one design sail boats that that

0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.680
<v Speaker 2>that they had these regattas with. He was joined by

0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:10.000
<v Speaker 2>former US Attorney Paul Markham and his cousin Joe Garden Gargan.

0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:13.240
<v Speaker 2>That's who. Jim Gaffkin played Paul Markham, and I played

0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.679
<v Speaker 2>Joe Gargan in the movie. I feel like everything sounds

0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:25.120
<v Speaker 2>like a cheese Gargan zola. Yeah, Victoria, everybody. That's that's

0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:27.760
<v Speaker 2>New England for you. That's like, that's white bread New

0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:31.439
<v Speaker 2>England culture. In just a little background on Joey Gargan,

0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:34.560
<v Speaker 2>he had been orphaned as a young child. Uh and

0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:39.680
<v Speaker 2>was was Rose Kennedy. Was was the Kennedy family matriarch.

0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:45.240
<v Speaker 2>Her sister was Joey's mother, and Joey lost his parents

0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.439
<v Speaker 2>when he was young, moved in and basically was raised

0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:51.159
<v Speaker 2>as a sibling, but he was on the outside, it's like,

0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:53.720
<v Speaker 2>and so he became he became a little bit of

0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:56.880
<v Speaker 2>like the fixer. So he was never quite in the family,

0:22:57.080 --> 0:22:59.800
<v Speaker 2>but he was like a first cousin and very much

0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:02.360
<v Speaker 2>in mix. Is very interesting dynamic. So we'll get back

0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:05.119
<v Speaker 2>to Joygargin for now. All you need to know is

0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:08.480
<v Speaker 2>that Ted placed ninth in this regatta in Edgar down

0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:12.000
<v Speaker 2>on Martha's vineyard. This is where things get real interesting.

0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Later that evening, a small gathering came together that included

0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:19.200
<v Speaker 2>several of Ted's advisors, along with six women who had

0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:23.119
<v Speaker 2>worked on Robert Kennedy's nineteen sixty eight campaign. These women

0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:27.960
<v Speaker 2>were known as the boiler room Girls. Now here's I

0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:29.960
<v Speaker 2>just want to sort of dispel I think what's a

0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:32.159
<v Speaker 2>very easy assumption here, which is that these are just

0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:35.520
<v Speaker 2>sort of like a gaggle of like wacky secretaries, like

0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.600
<v Speaker 2>out to have a great time. These were These women

0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:40.919
<v Speaker 2>were the boiler room Girls, as they were sort of

0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:45.280
<v Speaker 2>affectionately known within the campaign. These were badass young women

0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:48.160
<v Speaker 2>and they were speech writers. They were a tight knit

0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:53.720
<v Speaker 2>team of strategists, staffers right at the heart of rfk's campaign.

0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.200
<v Speaker 2>They were very well educated, they were motivated, and many

0:23:57.200 --> 0:24:01.640
<v Speaker 2>of them went on to have like phenomena careers. Part

0:24:01.680 --> 0:24:04.760
<v Speaker 2>of this reframing of this evening is that it's a reunion.

0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:09.040
<v Speaker 2>They had just lost RFK in nineteen sixty eight. He

0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.040
<v Speaker 2>had been assassinated, and they were all such passionate hard

0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:14.480
<v Speaker 2>workers on his behalf, and of course it was all

0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:17.040
<v Speaker 2>very traumatizing, and this was a This was a little

0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:19.240
<v Speaker 2>bit of a reunion from that team that had worked

0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:22.960
<v Speaker 2>so closely on his campaign, and a chance to say

0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>thank you from the Kennedy family. I'm not saying that

0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:29.040
<v Speaker 2>maybe hormones weren't also a part of it, but I

0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:32.879
<v Speaker 2>just I just want to just dispell Yeah, I just

0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:35.080
<v Speaker 2>want to dispel the sort of easy assumption that this

0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:40.120
<v Speaker 2>was like a bunch of like powerful men with like

0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:44.240
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of floozies, kind of like having a crazy party.

0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:47.480
<v Speaker 2>These were all very accomplished people. So the group met

0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:50.440
<v Speaker 2>at a cottage a small ferry ride from Martha's Vineyard

0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:54.120
<v Speaker 2>on chap Equittic Island, a quieter, more secluded spot. It's

0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:57.800
<v Speaker 2>right across a narrow channel from Edgar Town and it's

0:24:57.800 --> 0:25:00.600
<v Speaker 2>accessible only by this very small ferry that the fairy

0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:02.960
<v Speaker 2>holds like two or three cars, like it's a it's

0:25:03.000 --> 0:25:08.920
<v Speaker 2>a tiny little flatbed fairy. The mood relaxed, drinks, a cookout, music, dancing,

0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:11.680
<v Speaker 2>just a summer night with friends and again a chance

0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:15.440
<v Speaker 2>to reconnect after this like very traumatic presidential campaign they'd

0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:17.840
<v Speaker 2>all been through. Are you getting a bad feeling yet? Yeah?

0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:19.400
<v Speaker 2>I was going to say, you're doing a good job.

0:25:19.760 --> 0:25:23.400
<v Speaker 1>And I love my level of knowledge for this because

0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:25.679
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what's going to happen. I just know

0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:28.560
<v Speaker 1>that you're doing something that people who are telling stories

0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:30.920
<v Speaker 1>about bad things do, which is giving me a lot

0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:33.399
<v Speaker 1>of details, a lot of MP And these women weren't

0:25:34.720 --> 0:25:38.480
<v Speaker 1>good women, had working women, and I'm like, what happens

0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:39.240
<v Speaker 1>to those women.

0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.120
<v Speaker 2>Let's introduce one of the boiler room girls who will

0:25:44.160 --> 0:25:48.560
<v Speaker 2>become very central to our story, Mary Joe Kopecney. I

0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:51.680
<v Speaker 2>think it's not only important to understand why she was

0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:54.480
<v Speaker 2>at the party, but also to really honor her life

0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:58.200
<v Speaker 2>and work. She Mary Joe was born. That's that's a

0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:00.720
<v Speaker 2>tell right there. But before where are we get there?

0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:03.680
<v Speaker 2>Mary Joe was born in Pennsylvania in nineteen forty. She's

0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:06.080
<v Speaker 2>raised in New Jersey and later spent time in Alabama

0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:09.600
<v Speaker 2>teaching as part of a civil rights project. She volunteered

0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:12.960
<v Speaker 2>for JFK's presidential campaign while in college, then worked for

0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:19.600
<v Speaker 2>Florida Senator George Smathers before joining rfk's Senate office after

0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:23.920
<v Speaker 2>his nineteen sixty four election. Smathers actually recommended her Smathers

0:26:24.080 --> 0:26:26.560
<v Speaker 2>great name. I mean it's like a sitcom name. Yes

0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:30.600
<v Speaker 2>it is. Smathers actually recommended her to RFK, noting her

0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:34.200
<v Speaker 2>strong admiration for the Kennedy family. Ethel Kennedy later recalled

0:26:34.240 --> 0:26:36.560
<v Speaker 2>Mary Joe being the one who stayed up all night

0:26:36.640 --> 0:26:41.200
<v Speaker 2>writing Roberts nineteen sixty six Vietnam speech. Again, these are

0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:45.520
<v Speaker 2>not These are badass young women. Mary Joe went on

0:26:45.640 --> 0:26:48.119
<v Speaker 2>to serve as a speech writer on rfk's nineteen sixty

0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:50.680
<v Speaker 2>eight campaign, and of course became part of the boiler

0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:53.800
<v Speaker 2>Room Girls. Then, in September nineteen sixty eight, Mary Joe

0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:58.240
<v Speaker 2>was hired by Matt Reese Associates affirm that managed democratic

0:26:58.280 --> 0:27:01.440
<v Speaker 2>campaigns nationwide. She was now a political organizer and damn

0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:05.840
<v Speaker 2>proud of it. Those who knew her described her as talented, industrious,

0:27:05.840 --> 0:27:08.480
<v Speaker 2>and wholly devoted to her work. I think it's a

0:27:08.600 --> 0:27:11.000
<v Speaker 2>valuable to reflect on the promise of someone like this,

0:27:11.200 --> 0:27:14.560
<v Speaker 2>like's she's so like to be a speech writer in

0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:18.240
<v Speaker 2>your mid twenties for like a presidential candidate. I think

0:27:18.280 --> 0:27:20.399
<v Speaker 2>in the same way that you and I felt. I

0:27:20.440 --> 0:27:23.440
<v Speaker 2>don't know when I was doing starting out in comedy

0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:28.560
<v Speaker 2>in New York City, I was drunk on this world.

0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:30.680
<v Speaker 2>I just loved. I'm so thrilled to be a part

0:27:30.720 --> 0:27:32.120
<v Speaker 2>of it. It was all the things that I'd seen

0:27:32.160 --> 0:27:34.760
<v Speaker 2>on TV and want And then suddenly I'm in New

0:27:34.840 --> 0:27:37.760
<v Speaker 2>York City and I'm seeing my heroes and I'm on

0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:41.560
<v Speaker 2>stage like in the proximity to them, and it's very

0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:43.840
<v Speaker 2>I think Washington, d C. Is very similar for a

0:27:43.840 --> 0:27:47.280
<v Speaker 2>lot of people, a sense that like, these are very

0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:51.760
<v Speaker 2>aspirational people, the candidates that we admire. And I'm not

0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:55.000
<v Speaker 2>taking a strong stand on the kendidates. I do admire

0:27:55.040 --> 0:27:59.280
<v Speaker 2>the Kennedys, but they are controversial. But someone like Mary

0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:03.800
<v Speaker 2>Joe Kopecne, who very much admired the Kennedys and wanted

0:28:04.080 --> 0:28:08.359
<v Speaker 2>to help their cause, is suddenly not only in the

0:28:08.400 --> 0:28:11.240
<v Speaker 2>trenches with them, but like really having an effect on

0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:15.959
<v Speaker 2>rfk's campaign in such a cool way and in her

0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:19.159
<v Speaker 2>twenty that's amazing, Yeah, in her twenties. But it's to me,

0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:21.520
<v Speaker 2>that's the version of that that I know is like

0:28:22.119 --> 0:28:24.159
<v Speaker 2>SNL writers in their twenty.

0:28:23.960 --> 0:28:26.920
<v Speaker 1>No, you're not wrong. Politics is show business, and I'm

0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:30.159
<v Speaker 1>not saying that. Sometimes people say show business to disregard

0:28:30.160 --> 0:28:34.800
<v Speaker 1>it anything that's about perception and public speaking. It's all performing.

0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:38.040
<v Speaker 1>It's a performance. And she was in a way like

0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:39.760
<v Speaker 1>a writer for S ANDL. She was writing in a

0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:41.240
<v Speaker 1>very powerful public way.

0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:44.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So when Mary Joe received an invitation in the

0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:46.920
<v Speaker 2>summer of nineteen sixty nine for this reunion with her

0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:50.080
<v Speaker 2>fellow boiler room girls and a few of the other

0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:54.240
<v Speaker 2>advisors and staffers, she jumped at the chance. Now, unfortunately,

0:28:55.240 --> 0:29:01.240
<v Speaker 2>Pete tragedy awaited. Okay, cut to the next morning, July nineteenth,

0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:04.959
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty nine, two young fishermen discovered an overturned black

0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:09.520
<v Speaker 2>Oldsmobile submerged in poucha pond. Now, I'm gonna say poucha

0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:11.800
<v Speaker 2>pond in the movie, I think we said poucha pond.

0:29:11.960 --> 0:29:17.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm not positive sport. Yeah, this car is submerged and

0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:21.320
<v Speaker 2>it's upside down in the pond. Now this is a

0:29:21.360 --> 0:29:24.120
<v Speaker 2>title pond to be clear. So there's current that goes

0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:27.800
<v Speaker 2>in and out under this really low bridge. These fishermen

0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:30.760
<v Speaker 2>they see this car, they call the police, Chief Dominic

0:29:30.920 --> 0:29:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Jim Arena, who arrived and called in a local diver,

0:29:34.760 --> 0:29:38.200
<v Speaker 2>John Ferrar, to jump in and investigate. Now, inside the

0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:41.800
<v Speaker 2>car they found the body of Mary Joe Kopecney, deceased

0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:45.920
<v Speaker 2>and very likely drowned. No evidence of illegal activity was found,

0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:49.520
<v Speaker 2>but the car was determined to be registered too, and

0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:54.760
<v Speaker 2>he guesses ted Ted Kennedy. The car was registered to Teddy.

0:29:54.840 --> 0:29:59.440
<v Speaker 2>Holy shit, so she drove his car. Well, it's interesting

0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:02.080
<v Speaker 2>you say that. Why was Mary Joe and Ted's car?

0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:04.720
<v Speaker 2>Who was driving? And why the fuck is the car

0:30:04.760 --> 0:30:09.640
<v Speaker 2>flipped over upside down in this pond? Okay, great Gatsby?

0:30:09.840 --> 0:30:17.280
<v Speaker 2>Who was driving? To answer all of these questions, let's

0:30:17.280 --> 0:30:20.960
<v Speaker 2>go back to the night before July eighteenth, nineteen sixty

0:30:21.040 --> 0:30:24.120
<v Speaker 2>nine and walk through what we think happened. Now, the

0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:27.160
<v Speaker 2>timeline we have comes from a mix of sources, police

0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:31.360
<v Speaker 2>reports from that weekend, contemporaneous news coverage, lots of subsequent

0:30:31.440 --> 0:30:36.840
<v Speaker 2>news coverage, and sort of like looks back and reflective reporting.

0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Ted Kennedy's own statements in the days that followed, and

0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:44.200
<v Speaker 2>a judicial inquest that was conducted in early nineteen seventy.

0:30:44.680 --> 0:30:46.920
<v Speaker 2>I just want to be clear, even with all of

0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:50.080
<v Speaker 2>that source material, the full picture of the Night of

0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:53.040
<v Speaker 2>chap equittic and part of the reason it's so locked

0:30:53.080 --> 0:30:57.680
<v Speaker 2>into the American political consciousness is that the full picture

0:30:57.960 --> 0:31:01.080
<v Speaker 2>never really came into perfect focus. There are gaps, there

0:31:01.080 --> 0:31:04.040
<v Speaker 2>are contradictions, there are lingering questions, which some of which

0:31:04.040 --> 0:31:06.440
<v Speaker 2>we'll get into. But I just want to reiterate, even

0:31:06.440 --> 0:31:08.520
<v Speaker 2>though this reconstruction that I'm going to share with you

0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:11.960
<v Speaker 2>is fairly widely accepted and it's what we depicted in

0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:16.640
<v Speaker 2>the movie, it does remain very controversial and there are

0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:19.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people. There's a lot of conspiracies around it,

0:31:19.160 --> 0:31:23.160
<v Speaker 2>and there's room. Unfortunately, there's like room for conspiracy because

0:31:23.200 --> 0:31:26.240
<v Speaker 2>there there are open questions. So let's get into it.

0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:29.440
<v Speaker 2>We're at the party in the cottage. Exact times are disputed,

0:31:29.440 --> 0:31:33.720
<v Speaker 2>but sometime between eleven PM and one am, Ted and

0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:38.200
<v Speaker 2>Mary Joe departed the cottage in Ted's car. Kennedy would

0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:40.360
<v Speaker 2>later claim that he was driving Mary Joe back to

0:31:40.400 --> 0:31:43.640
<v Speaker 2>the Edgar Town Ferry, but they were going in the

0:31:43.720 --> 0:31:49.040
<v Speaker 2>opposite direction. So now chap equitic Is is a is

0:31:49.080 --> 0:31:52.480
<v Speaker 2>a rustic We shot there for the movie, and so

0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:56.480
<v Speaker 2>I I this is firsthand. It's a it's a it's

0:31:56.520 --> 0:32:01.800
<v Speaker 2>dirt roads, it's it's it's uh, it's very it's just

0:32:01.840 --> 0:32:05.120
<v Speaker 2>a lot of open space. And so it's easy to

0:32:05.280 --> 0:32:07.680
<v Speaker 2>have made a wrong turn theoretically.

0:32:07.720 --> 0:32:10.960
<v Speaker 1>But what we don't turn was it where they I'm

0:32:10.960 --> 0:32:13.640
<v Speaker 1>picturing it like MAUI like, if you're not going towards

0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:15.400
<v Speaker 1>the airport, you're going the other way?

0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:17.520
<v Speaker 2>Is it like that? It's hard to buy that he

0:32:17.600 --> 0:32:18.600
<v Speaker 2>made a wrong turn.

0:32:18.840 --> 0:32:23.280
<v Speaker 1>Unless this is some unless it's trash disturbed. How quickly

0:32:23.320 --> 0:32:25.360
<v Speaker 1>you can come up with a lie, it's because it's

0:32:25.400 --> 0:32:27.920
<v Speaker 1>like this sniving I would have been a good publicist.

0:32:28.560 --> 0:32:30.320
<v Speaker 2>It's like, maybe.

0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:33.160
<v Speaker 1>He's with this young lady. They're enjoying themselves. Let's take

0:32:33.160 --> 0:32:35.240
<v Speaker 1>the scenic route. Let's go the long way, because if

0:32:35.280 --> 0:32:37.280
<v Speaker 1>you're on an island, there is no wrong turn. There's

0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:39.160
<v Speaker 1>just a longer way to where you're going.

0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:41.959
<v Speaker 2>No, not this way like this, No, not not this

0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:45.400
<v Speaker 2>particular road. The way that they were driving was towards

0:32:46.200 --> 0:32:49.160
<v Speaker 2>a beach. It's a dead end, basically, I mean, it's

0:32:49.160 --> 0:32:52.120
<v Speaker 2>a long road and it goes along, but to get

0:32:52.160 --> 0:32:55.360
<v Speaker 2>to the ferry you have to literally go the opposite direction. Okay,

0:32:55.440 --> 0:32:58.840
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, okay, so he seems to be lying. But

0:32:58.880 --> 0:33:03.840
<v Speaker 2>it's a very rural feeling place, so there's not a

0:33:03.880 --> 0:33:05.200
<v Speaker 2>lot of landmarks and so forth.

0:33:05.240 --> 0:33:08.680
<v Speaker 1>But they're going to the beach to maybe smooch a

0:33:08.720 --> 0:33:09.800
<v Speaker 1>little bit with respect.

0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:12.880
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I don't think that's an unfair assumption, but we

0:33:13.040 --> 0:33:16.120
<v Speaker 2>just we don't know. At some point while they're driving,

0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:19.680
<v Speaker 2>the car veered off of this small dyke bridge and

0:33:19.720 --> 0:33:22.800
<v Speaker 2>the car flipped over and sunk upside down into the

0:33:22.880 --> 0:33:26.080
<v Speaker 2>murky waters of pouch Upon below. To be clear, this

0:33:26.240 --> 0:33:30.040
<v Speaker 2>was a low bridge with absolutely no guardrails of any kinds.

0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:33.920
<v Speaker 2>Here's a photo of it with some spectators after the accident. Okay, yeah,

0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:36.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't like this bridge. Yeah, that that bridge. Obviously

0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:41.200
<v Speaker 2>it's very easy to veer off of. I don't think

0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:44.040
<v Speaker 2>any of the vehicles we're seeing are the actual vehicle

0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:47.720
<v Speaker 2>that that flipped, that went off the bridge. Yeah. So

0:33:47.800 --> 0:33:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Ted recalled quote struggling as the water flooded the car

0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:54.800
<v Speaker 2>and quickly submerged him in Mary Joe, And the details

0:33:54.800 --> 0:33:58.560
<v Speaker 2>are still unclear on this but ted somehow escaped the car,

0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:01.080
<v Speaker 2>and he claims to have made repeat efforts to rescue

0:34:01.120 --> 0:34:04.720
<v Speaker 2>Mary Joe. In his statement, he basically admits to driving

0:34:04.760 --> 0:34:08.560
<v Speaker 2>the car, but his rescue attempts were unsuccessful. And here's

0:34:08.560 --> 0:34:11.960
<v Speaker 2>where our man Teddy starts to make some really bad decisions.

0:34:12.000 --> 0:34:14.719
<v Speaker 2>Instead of going to the police, ted walked back to

0:34:14.760 --> 0:34:18.720
<v Speaker 2>the cottage. Once there, it is believed that ted told

0:34:18.880 --> 0:34:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Joe Gargan and Paul Markham what had happened. Now. What's

0:34:22.719 --> 0:34:25.719
<v Speaker 2>interesting is that, according to Joe Gargin's later testimony in

0:34:25.800 --> 0:34:29.239
<v Speaker 2>the inquest, Ted only said the car has gone off

0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:31.600
<v Speaker 2>the bridge down by the beach and Mary Joe is

0:34:31.640 --> 0:34:34.919
<v Speaker 2>in it. He did not say I drove a car

0:34:35.000 --> 0:34:38.080
<v Speaker 2>off the bridge passive voice.

0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:41.600
<v Speaker 1>Yes, in American history, the car is in the water.

0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:44.719
<v Speaker 2>Yes. Now this this speaks to a post one one

0:34:44.800 --> 0:34:49.360
<v Speaker 2>theory as to a possible uh like version of the

0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:52.840
<v Speaker 2>story that Teddy might have been trying to start to build,

0:34:52.880 --> 0:34:55.400
<v Speaker 2>which is that he wasn't even in the car. So

0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:58.280
<v Speaker 2>immediately Joe, Paul and Teddy go back to the bridge,

0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:01.239
<v Speaker 2>and Joe and Paul ripped down and they dive in

0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:04.600
<v Speaker 2>and they make multiple attempts to save Mary Joe. Obviously

0:35:04.640 --> 0:35:07.920
<v Speaker 2>they were they were undiscovered her body, right. Yeah, Now

0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:11.839
<v Speaker 2>I can tell you in shooting the movie, we recreated that.

0:35:12.040 --> 0:35:14.319
<v Speaker 2>We we were on a set in a giant water

0:35:14.400 --> 0:35:18.000
<v Speaker 2>tank in Mexico and they built this bridge and they

0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:20.600
<v Speaker 2>submerged a car upside down and Jim Gaffigan and I

0:35:20.760 --> 0:35:22.759
<v Speaker 2>jumped off the bridge and is in the middle of

0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the night and swam down to a car. It's like

0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:29.799
<v Speaker 2>three or four feet under the water, but it's upside down,

0:35:30.480 --> 0:35:32.960
<v Speaker 2>and we tried to look in the windows of the

0:35:33.040 --> 0:35:37.960
<v Speaker 2>car and you know, basically perform this what what's happening here?

0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:40.879
<v Speaker 2>And I can tell you it was so terrifying, even

0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:45.000
<v Speaker 2>under the most controlled circumstances like diving into dark water

0:35:45.640 --> 0:35:48.759
<v Speaker 2>and uh and looking into a car expecting to see

0:35:48.760 --> 0:35:52.239
<v Speaker 2>a body. It just is like so unnerving and to

0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:54.200
<v Speaker 2>find your good side and you're like, wait, now, am

0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:58.600
<v Speaker 2>I being framed? Yeah? And uh, and I'm and and

0:35:58.600 --> 0:36:00.359
<v Speaker 2>and by the way, the version I'm doing is fake

0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:02.239
<v Speaker 2>and these guys are doing it for real.

0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but this is interesting because you said rescue, they're

0:36:05.280 --> 0:36:06.399
<v Speaker 1>clearly jumping in.

0:36:06.840 --> 0:36:09.040
<v Speaker 2>They don't know. There may have been an air pocket.

0:36:09.080 --> 0:36:12.960
<v Speaker 2>Pete we'll get there. Yes, hold on, it gets crazy.

0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:15.960
<v Speaker 2>So afterwards, Joe and Paul told Ted that he needed

0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:19.960
<v Speaker 2>to inform the police. Interestingly, Joe first recommended that Ted

0:36:20.040 --> 0:36:23.720
<v Speaker 2>call his administrative assistant, Dave Burke, and also a lawyer

0:36:23.800 --> 0:36:25.960
<v Speaker 2>close to the family, a man by the name of

0:36:26.040 --> 0:36:30.360
<v Speaker 2>Burke Marshall. So a couple of Burks, a couple of Berks. Yep, okay,

0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:32.440
<v Speaker 2>so yes, definitely tell the police that this woman is

0:36:32.480 --> 0:36:34.400
<v Speaker 2>dead in a car acident. Make sure you call your

0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:37.920
<v Speaker 2>lawyer and your assistant first. According to Joe Gargin's testimony,

0:36:38.120 --> 0:36:40.879
<v Speaker 2>Ted told Joe and Paul he would quote take care

0:36:40.920 --> 0:36:43.440
<v Speaker 2>of it, and urged them to go back to the

0:36:43.440 --> 0:36:47.440
<v Speaker 2>cottage and not upset the girls with this terrible news. Yet,

0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:49.319
<v Speaker 2>at this point, it's so late at night, there's no

0:36:49.360 --> 0:36:55.040
<v Speaker 2>ferries running. Kennedy allegedly swam across this narrow channel back

0:36:55.120 --> 0:36:58.359
<v Speaker 2>to edgar Town, and Joe and Paul, of course, are

0:36:58.360 --> 0:37:03.280
<v Speaker 2>believing he's going to the police report this. Who did them? Teddy?

0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:08.440
<v Speaker 2>Teddy swam back to edgar Town? Shut up? Yeah? Yes,

0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:11.040
<v Speaker 2>And so I mean, this is this, This is the

0:37:11.080 --> 0:37:13.799
<v Speaker 2>account that we're going with. It's not that far. It's

0:37:13.800 --> 0:37:16.520
<v Speaker 2>like a couple. It's maybe like a couple hundred yards.

0:37:16.680 --> 0:37:19.800
<v Speaker 2>I'll swim in, yeah, he says, And it is, and

0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:22.560
<v Speaker 2>it's a lot of people do swim it. It's not

0:37:22.600 --> 0:37:24.960
<v Speaker 2>that insane. It's not like rough open water. But he's

0:37:25.000 --> 0:37:27.680
<v Speaker 2>in like a suit. No, he's in beach attire. He

0:37:27.760 --> 0:37:30.600
<v Speaker 2>probably stripped down to his shorts. Who knows, but I

0:37:30.760 --> 0:37:34.239
<v Speaker 2>and he's staying. Remember his hotel is in Edgar Town,

0:37:34.320 --> 0:37:37.480
<v Speaker 2>so that's part of what I mean. He's got clothes

0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:40.280
<v Speaker 2>waiting for him over there. He's headed back to Edgar Town,

0:37:40.440 --> 0:37:44.879
<v Speaker 2>and Joey and Markham believe that he's going to tell

0:37:44.960 --> 0:37:48.640
<v Speaker 2>the police. Now. Back at his hotel, Ted did not

0:37:48.840 --> 0:37:51.799
<v Speaker 2>report the incident. He later claimed in court that he

0:37:51.840 --> 0:37:55.480
<v Speaker 2>was up all night kind of like in this fever state,

0:37:55.560 --> 0:37:58.640
<v Speaker 2>hoping that Mary Joe was somehow still alive, like in denial.

0:37:59.160 --> 0:38:03.960
<v Speaker 2>Hotel staff claimed later that Kennedy, this is very interesting.

0:38:04.000 --> 0:38:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Kennedy made a noise complaint at three am about like

0:38:07.680 --> 0:38:12.279
<v Speaker 2>some revelry going on in another room, and that the

0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:18.440
<v Speaker 2>following morning he was seen very casually having breakfast with

0:38:18.520 --> 0:38:21.960
<v Speaker 2>some people in the hotel restaurant. Now, this is all

0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:24.200
<v Speaker 2>very interesting because it sort of it starts to feed

0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:27.799
<v Speaker 2>this idea that perhaps Teddy was trying to establish that

0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:30.439
<v Speaker 2>he was yeah, that he was like that he never

0:38:30.640 --> 0:38:32.919
<v Speaker 2>was even there, and that he was actually an Edgar

0:38:32.960 --> 0:38:35.719
<v Speaker 2>town and so like, now he's on the record at

0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:38.239
<v Speaker 2>three am making a noise complaint. You can see how

0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:40.120
<v Speaker 2>this this kind of starts to feel like he's building

0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:44.000
<v Speaker 2>an alibi, but it's also sort of like the worst

0:38:44.239 --> 0:38:49.839
<v Speaker 2>possible post incident like way to handle this. So then

0:38:50.320 --> 0:38:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Joe and Paul show up at Ted's hotel at eight thirty.

0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:56.560
<v Speaker 2>They find him at breakfast, fresh as a daisy, like

0:38:56.880 --> 0:39:00.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, showered and like all wearing nice clothes, having

0:39:00.719 --> 0:39:03.040
<v Speaker 2>just a chipper breakfast with some other people. They asked

0:39:03.040 --> 0:39:06.319
<v Speaker 2>if he'd reported the incident. He had not, so they

0:39:06.440 --> 0:39:09.239
<v Speaker 2>drove him back to Chapiquittic. You know, this took the

0:39:09.280 --> 0:39:12.359
<v Speaker 2>ferry and now at this point the car has been

0:39:12.360 --> 0:39:17.719
<v Speaker 2>discovered by the police. After trying and failing to reach

0:39:17.760 --> 0:39:22.279
<v Speaker 2>Brooke Marshall, ted quote fully realized what had happened and

0:39:22.320 --> 0:39:25.480
<v Speaker 2>he came clean to the police around ten am. That

0:39:25.760 --> 0:39:29.160
<v Speaker 2>was Kennedy's language in his police statement that he quote

0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:33.120
<v Speaker 2>fully realized what had happened. Over ten hours later and

0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:35.840
<v Speaker 2>a big breakfast. Sometimes you're just not yourself until you

0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:37.680
<v Speaker 2>have your coffee. I guess, I guess.

0:39:37.719 --> 0:39:42.239
<v Speaker 1>So this seems like an open and closed like he

0:39:42.280 --> 0:39:47.120
<v Speaker 1>did this. He's in a very powerful family, and a

0:39:47.160 --> 0:39:49.400
<v Speaker 1>lot of people are going like, maybe this didn't happen.

0:39:49.400 --> 0:39:51.359
<v Speaker 1>We're in this island, maybe we can clean it up.

0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:53.880
<v Speaker 1>I think that's probably what makes this story so compelling.

0:39:54.280 --> 0:39:57.680
<v Speaker 1>Is we all have this like devilish instinct where we're like,

0:39:58.040 --> 0:40:00.279
<v Speaker 1>or maybe I just keep driving, you know, like that

0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:02.759
<v Speaker 1>sort of thing. These things happen all the time, hitting

0:40:02.880 --> 0:40:03.640
<v Speaker 1>runs and all that.

0:40:03.600 --> 0:40:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Sort of stuff. So we had a guy going, oh, no,

0:40:07.680 --> 0:40:08.520
<v Speaker 2>I was driving.

0:40:08.800 --> 0:40:10.600
<v Speaker 1>I was drunk. Maybe we were going to the beach

0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:12.960
<v Speaker 1>to fool around. There's lots of bad things happening. We

0:40:13.000 --> 0:40:17.000
<v Speaker 1>don't know any of that. But she dies, and then

0:40:17.040 --> 0:40:21.000
<v Speaker 1>he spent a good while talking to everybody except the police.

0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:22.239
<v Speaker 2>Can I get out of this?

0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:24.799
<v Speaker 1>Which I think again is what makes us a good

0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:27.200
<v Speaker 1>It's not a ghost story, but like a ghostly kind

0:40:27.200 --> 0:40:27.719
<v Speaker 1>of story is.

0:40:27.719 --> 0:40:29.719
<v Speaker 2>You're like, wait, would I do that?

0:40:29.920 --> 0:40:32.560
<v Speaker 1>Would I also try to cover my own ass, Like

0:40:33.360 --> 0:40:37.000
<v Speaker 1>we go very quickly to like this person is dead.

0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Nothing is going to bring them back, ted, you know

0:40:40.440 --> 0:40:43.319
<v Speaker 1>what I mean, like so we can protect you.

0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:47.239
<v Speaker 2>Like it's like I'm not saying that is wrong. And

0:40:47.239 --> 0:40:51.839
<v Speaker 2>that's that old adage that like this was clearly an accident, right,

0:40:51.880 --> 0:40:55.320
<v Speaker 2>and had he come clean immediately and like gone straight

0:40:55.360 --> 0:40:59.000
<v Speaker 2>to the police and and and respond, stuff didn't happen

0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:02.200
<v Speaker 2>until way later. They would have tested him for alcohol.

0:41:02.440 --> 0:41:05.439
<v Speaker 1>But back then it was like send Yankee, doodle dandy, Yeah, right,

0:41:06.040 --> 0:41:07.040
<v Speaker 1>smoke this cigarette.

0:41:07.120 --> 0:41:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Now, tell me your mother's name. He's so good, he's

0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:15.960
<v Speaker 2>got coffee on his breath. He's so here's the thing.

0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:19.640
<v Speaker 2>Police flagged a number of his inconsistencies in Kennedy's account.

0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:24.399
<v Speaker 2>Deputy Sheriff Christopher S. Huck Look Junior reported seeing a dark,

0:41:24.480 --> 0:41:27.240
<v Speaker 2>seemingly lost car the night before, only to later realize

0:41:27.280 --> 0:41:29.839
<v Speaker 2>it was the same vehicle involved in the accident. He

0:41:29.960 --> 0:41:32.640
<v Speaker 2>placed that siting around twelve forty five am, which is

0:41:32.840 --> 0:41:37.320
<v Speaker 2>ninety minutes after the time Kennedy said the incident occurred. Notably,

0:41:37.400 --> 0:41:41.239
<v Speaker 2>this was long after the last fairy stopped running. So

0:41:42.040 --> 0:41:44.680
<v Speaker 2>I guess the implication is that maybe Kennedy changed the

0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:47.400
<v Speaker 2>timeline to make his Oh we were driving to the

0:41:47.480 --> 0:41:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Edgar Town Ferry story like more plausible because because in

0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:55.200
<v Speaker 2>real life the time they were driving, the fairy had

0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:57.799
<v Speaker 2>long stopped running. So interesting details to mention here. The

0:41:57.800 --> 0:42:01.040
<v Speaker 2>New York Times report confirmed credit card records tied to

0:42:01.040 --> 0:42:03.400
<v Speaker 2>that night showed calls from the cottage and hotel to

0:42:03.480 --> 0:42:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Kennedy's family, lawyers, and staff. Other reports indicate that seventeen

0:42:07.840 --> 0:42:10.600
<v Speaker 2>total phone calls were charged to his credit card that night.

0:42:11.040 --> 0:42:13.920
<v Speaker 2>In addition, the purse of one of the other boiler

0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:17.040
<v Speaker 2>room girls, Rosemary Keyo, was in the car for some reason.

0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:19.839
<v Speaker 2>And here's a really interesting detail, no autopsy was ever

0:42:19.880 --> 0:42:25.080
<v Speaker 2>performed on Mary. Joe Kennedy's team. Kennedy had called this guy,

0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:31.360
<v Speaker 2>Dunn Gifford came and basically took the body right away,

0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:35.960
<v Speaker 2>flown to Pennsylvania for burial, just almost immediately before local

0:42:35.960 --> 0:42:40.480
<v Speaker 2>officials could really even request an official examination. So unsurprised.

0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:44.000
<v Speaker 2>And there's you'll hear why that's even more controversial than

0:42:44.040 --> 0:42:46.719
<v Speaker 2>it sounds. It seems like cut and dry how she died,

0:42:46.840 --> 0:42:50.440
<v Speaker 2>it's not so unsurprisingly the news of the incident took

0:42:50.440 --> 0:42:53.680
<v Speaker 2>America by storm. Would Kennedy be held responsible and would

0:42:53.680 --> 0:43:03.800
<v Speaker 2>the real truths ever come out. On July twentieth, nineteen

0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:06.160
<v Speaker 2>sixty nine, just a day after Mary Joe Copeckney was

0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:09.480
<v Speaker 2>discovered in Ted Kennedy's oldsmobile, two gentlemen by the names

0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:12.200
<v Speaker 2>of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped onto the lunar

0:43:12.280 --> 0:43:15.000
<v Speaker 2>surface of our very own moon. Have you ever ever

0:43:15.000 --> 0:43:18.600
<v Speaker 2>heard of those guys? Yes? Yes, so with those steps,

0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:22.480
<v Speaker 2>so too did they absorb most, if not all, of

0:43:22.480 --> 0:43:25.680
<v Speaker 2>the news coverage about what happened to chap Equittick. Serendipitous

0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:27.319
<v Speaker 2>timing for Ted and his team, of course, but that

0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:29.800
<v Speaker 2>only lasted for a short while. After the moon landing

0:43:29.800 --> 0:43:33.840
<v Speaker 2>coverage subsided, chap Equittic became front and center in the media.

0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:37.880
<v Speaker 2>On July twenty fifth, Ted Kennedy pled guilty to leaving

0:43:37.920 --> 0:43:40.719
<v Speaker 2>the scene of the accident that was his only charge,

0:43:40.760 --> 0:43:43.239
<v Speaker 2>and received a two month suspended jail sentence and the

0:43:43.239 --> 0:43:46.000
<v Speaker 2>loss of his driver's license for one year. That's it.

0:43:46.640 --> 0:43:51.680
<v Speaker 2>That's it. The same day, he delivered a statement on

0:43:51.800 --> 0:43:56.760
<v Speaker 2>TV to his constituents, and interestingly, the author of this statement,

0:43:58.640 --> 0:44:02.000
<v Speaker 2>Joe Gargin, presumed we had was trying to have strong

0:44:02.040 --> 0:44:04.279
<v Speaker 2>influence on it in a way that would sound like

0:44:04.280 --> 0:44:08.320
<v Speaker 2>he was taking more responsibility. But most of what Teddy

0:44:08.400 --> 0:44:11.160
<v Speaker 2>said in this statement was actually written by Ted Sorenson,

0:44:11.520 --> 0:44:14.919
<v Speaker 2>the same speech writer that wrote so many of JFK's

0:44:15.120 --> 0:44:17.520
<v Speaker 2>incredible speeches. So listen to this. Listen to this quote

0:44:17.560 --> 0:44:20.480
<v Speaker 2>from Teddy's TV statement. I remember thinking, as the cold

0:44:20.520 --> 0:44:22.840
<v Speaker 2>water rushed in around my head that I was for

0:44:22.920 --> 0:44:26.399
<v Speaker 2>certain drowning. Then water entered my lungs and I felt

0:44:26.440 --> 0:44:29.160
<v Speaker 2>the sensation of drowning, but somehow I struggled to the

0:44:29.200 --> 0:44:32.479
<v Speaker 2>surface alive. I made immediate and repeated efforts to save

0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:35.040
<v Speaker 2>Mary Joe by diving into the strong and murky current,

0:44:35.320 --> 0:44:38.160
<v Speaker 2>but succeeded only in increasing my state of utter exhaustion

0:44:38.280 --> 0:44:42.840
<v Speaker 2>and alarm. My conduct and conversations during the next several hours,

0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:45.600
<v Speaker 2>to the extent that I can remember them make no

0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:51.560
<v Speaker 2>sense to me at all. Wow, it's so that's another

0:44:51.880 --> 0:44:54.840
<v Speaker 2>Just conceit. Just be like, yeah, makes no sense. I

0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:56.520
<v Speaker 2>don't get it either, guys, I don't get it.

0:44:56.840 --> 0:45:00.200
<v Speaker 1>But you know again, maybe I would have been good

0:45:00.440 --> 0:45:03.440
<v Speaker 1>in like a crisis management team, because that is valid.

0:45:03.560 --> 0:45:06.479
<v Speaker 1>It's like, concede the point. All of my behavior after

0:45:06.480 --> 0:45:10.120
<v Speaker 1>that fact is completely irrational. I was in an a

0:45:10.239 --> 0:45:12.320
<v Speaker 1>rational state. Oh that's what I could have been a lawyer.

0:45:12.600 --> 0:45:15.600
<v Speaker 1>That's what a lawyer would say. He was completely in shock.

0:45:16.000 --> 0:45:18.399
<v Speaker 1>His friend had just died, he tried to save them,

0:45:18.680 --> 0:45:21.560
<v Speaker 1>and then from that state of confusion, he's swimming back

0:45:21.560 --> 0:45:22.280
<v Speaker 1>to his hotel.

0:45:22.560 --> 0:45:27.800
<v Speaker 2>This guy is not okay. Obviously that statement is very

0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:34.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of obtuse, and the question remains, did he take

0:45:34.080 --> 0:45:38.400
<v Speaker 2>responsibility at all for his actions. Here's another quote I

0:45:38.440 --> 0:45:42.120
<v Speaker 2>believe from later in the same TV address. Although my

0:45:42.200 --> 0:45:45.480
<v Speaker 2>doctors informed me that I suffered a cerebral concussion as

0:45:45.520 --> 0:45:48.799
<v Speaker 2>well as shock, I do not seek to escape responsibility

0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:51.279
<v Speaker 2>for my actions by placing the blame either on the

0:45:51.320 --> 0:45:54.759
<v Speaker 2>physical and emotional trauma brought on by the accident or

0:45:54.800 --> 0:45:58.040
<v Speaker 2>on anyone else, so he said, which is a way

0:45:58.080 --> 0:46:00.719
<v Speaker 2>of saying yes, I am yes, right, But it's a

0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:03.640
<v Speaker 2>way of saying I'm not avoiding. It's like sort of

0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:07.160
<v Speaker 2>stating the negative without stating the positive. Which is another

0:46:07.520 --> 0:46:11.960
<v Speaker 2>like very savvy bit of like linguistic. It's like linguistic

0:46:12.040 --> 0:46:12.760
<v Speaker 2>jiu jitsu.

0:46:13.200 --> 0:46:17.120
<v Speaker 1>That's like textbook how to say the opposite of what

0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:17.600
<v Speaker 1>you're saying.

0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:20.080
<v Speaker 2>You have lots of these kinds of incidents in your past.

0:46:20.480 --> 0:46:22.319
<v Speaker 2>This is why you're such an expert on this is

0:46:22.360 --> 0:46:25.120
<v Speaker 2>why you had me on. Just can't stop whoopside doodling.

0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:29.920
<v Speaker 2>So this is interesting. There was a lot of pressure

0:46:30.000 --> 0:46:34.040
<v Speaker 2>on Teddy Kennedy after this incident to resign from Congress,

0:46:34.080 --> 0:46:36.920
<v Speaker 2>as we've seen so often with these kinds of scandals,

0:46:37.200 --> 0:46:39.600
<v Speaker 2>like there's always a big outcry, especially from the opposition,

0:46:39.640 --> 0:46:41.160
<v Speaker 2>but even from within his own party. A lot of

0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:45.000
<v Speaker 2>people thought, like, this is insurmountable. You really fucked up.

0:46:45.080 --> 0:46:48.200
<v Speaker 2>It's time to like resign. But here's how he handled that.

0:46:49.600 --> 0:46:52.440
<v Speaker 2>He ended this statement with a very curious appeal to

0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:56.680
<v Speaker 2>his Massachusetts constituents. While considering whether to resign from Congress

0:46:56.719 --> 0:46:59.920
<v Speaker 2>over the accident, he asked them to quote, think this

0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:03.040
<v Speaker 2>through with them. Though he acknowledged that the decision was

0:47:03.080 --> 0:47:06.520
<v Speaker 2>ultimately his, he asked whether they believed he should remain

0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:08.200
<v Speaker 2>in the Senate. So he sort of kicked it, he

0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:11.799
<v Speaker 2>punted it to the constituents, and it turns out his

0:47:11.840 --> 0:47:14.840
<v Speaker 2>strategy was successful. His constituents did want him to stay,

0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:17.400
<v Speaker 2>and he kept his seat in Congress. He did announced

0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:19.680
<v Speaker 2>later that he would not run for president, as had

0:47:19.719 --> 0:47:23.040
<v Speaker 2>been the plan in seventy two. Well, that's a little suspicion,

0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:24.800
<v Speaker 2>which part I guess.

0:47:24.800 --> 0:47:27.520
<v Speaker 1>What I'm looking for is what is the alternate narrative,

0:47:27.600 --> 0:47:29.239
<v Speaker 1>Like if he said, Okay, I'm not going to run

0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:31.239
<v Speaker 1>for president, that sounds like somebody that's like, I don't

0:47:31.239 --> 0:47:33.000
<v Speaker 1>want to drudge that up, right, I don't want you

0:47:33.040 --> 0:47:35.560
<v Speaker 1>to look at that more closely. I don't want you

0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:39.040
<v Speaker 1>to throw that in my face. Maybe investigate more that

0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:41.319
<v Speaker 1>that makes it seem like there might have been foul play,

0:47:41.320 --> 0:47:42.440
<v Speaker 1>but I still don't see.

0:47:42.640 --> 0:47:46.440
<v Speaker 2>I think what the sort of like Kennedy Inner Circle

0:47:46.600 --> 0:47:49.000
<v Speaker 2>or Camelot as it was known, like what I think

0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:53.400
<v Speaker 2>what they were afraid of? That scrutiny would bring a

0:47:53.440 --> 0:47:57.280
<v Speaker 2>lot of clarity to just how terrible this was handled.

0:47:57.520 --> 0:47:59.480
<v Speaker 2>I see, this is my take on it. I just

0:47:59.880 --> 0:48:06.000
<v Speaker 2>like Teddy was was very selfish and very irrational and

0:48:08.000 --> 0:48:14.239
<v Speaker 2>was clearly avoidant. And that's I think a generous takeaway

0:48:14.400 --> 0:48:16.920
<v Speaker 2>like if not, if not, you know, because there's a

0:48:17.000 --> 0:48:20.239
<v Speaker 2>version of this where he's fully guilty of manslaughter, right,

0:48:20.719 --> 0:48:24.319
<v Speaker 2>the unintentional killing of Mary Joe, especially if he had

0:48:24.360 --> 0:48:26.279
<v Speaker 2>been drinking and all sorts of things. So had he

0:48:26.400 --> 0:48:29.319
<v Speaker 2>run for president, there would have been even more scrutiny.

0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:32.759
<v Speaker 2>There just wasn't the support for him to do that.

0:48:33.000 --> 0:48:34.960
<v Speaker 2>But he's not quite out of the limelight yet. District

0:48:35.000 --> 0:48:41.359
<v Speaker 2>Attorney Edmund Denise requested a judicial inquest into Mary Joe's death,

0:48:41.920 --> 0:48:45.480
<v Speaker 2>which occurred in January nineteen seventy. The testimony in this

0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:49.000
<v Speaker 2>judicial inquest is a lot of what gives us the

0:48:49.040 --> 0:48:52.120
<v Speaker 2>ability to construct a narrative here. They spoke to hotel staff,

0:48:52.160 --> 0:48:56.160
<v Speaker 2>they spoke to obviously Joe Gargin and Paul Markham. Kennedy

0:48:56.200 --> 0:48:59.920
<v Speaker 2>gave a statement. It's almost three hundred pages of testimony,

0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:03.160
<v Speaker 2>and they spoke to the police and all the local folks,

0:49:03.840 --> 0:49:09.399
<v Speaker 2>the diver. The judge wound up determining that the likely

0:49:09.440 --> 0:49:13.600
<v Speaker 2>cause of Mary Joe's death was simply negligent driving, which

0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:15.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people think that this judge was just

0:49:15.960 --> 0:49:22.279
<v Speaker 2>participating in the institutional urge to sweep this under the carpet. Yeah. Yeah.

0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:26.200
<v Speaker 2>Numerous theories have floated around over the years about possible

0:49:26.239 --> 0:49:29.960
<v Speaker 2>other explanations for what happened that night and why Kennedy

0:49:30.000 --> 0:49:32.520
<v Speaker 2>waited a full ten hours to report the fact that

0:49:32.640 --> 0:49:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Rosemary Keyo's purse was inside the car made some wonder

0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:38.880
<v Speaker 2>if Rosemary and Ted were in the car together on

0:49:38.880 --> 0:49:41.759
<v Speaker 2>their way to do some canoodling, perhaps, and that they

0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:44.680
<v Speaker 2>didn't realize that Mary Joe was asleep in the back seat.

0:49:45.480 --> 0:49:48.040
<v Speaker 2>In this version, of course, the car would have crashed,

0:49:48.239 --> 0:49:51.879
<v Speaker 2>both Rosemary and Ted would have escaped, and then Mary

0:49:51.920 --> 0:49:54.399
<v Speaker 2>Joe would have passed away. I don't think a lot

0:49:54.440 --> 0:49:58.080
<v Speaker 2>of people believe this, but there are the owl theory

0:49:58.120 --> 0:50:02.760
<v Speaker 2>in the staircase. Yeah, there's just all of the evidence

0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:05.680
<v Speaker 2>for this is simply that Rosemary's purse was in the

0:50:05.719 --> 0:50:08.800
<v Speaker 2>seat of the car. Another version of the incident, pitched

0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:11.600
<v Speaker 2>in the book chap Equittic Revealed What Really Happened by

0:50:11.680 --> 0:50:15.759
<v Speaker 2>Kenneth Keppel, claims that Ted accidentally rammed the car into

0:50:15.760 --> 0:50:18.279
<v Speaker 2>a tree while he was intoxicated and thinking that Mary

0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:20.680
<v Speaker 2>Joe had been killed, submerged the car in the pond

0:50:20.719 --> 0:50:22.400
<v Speaker 2>with the help of Joe Gargan and Paul Markham to

0:50:22.400 --> 0:50:25.680
<v Speaker 2>avoid prosecution. I think this theory is insane because it's

0:50:25.840 --> 0:50:29.239
<v Speaker 2>it'd be virtually impossible to flip the car into the

0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:36.239
<v Speaker 2>pond on purpose. There's even speculation in Leo Demo's best

0:50:36.239 --> 0:50:40.160
<v Speaker 2>selling book Senatorial Privilege, which is a very exhaustive account

0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:42.560
<v Speaker 2>of all of this. That speculation is that Ted tried

0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:45.920
<v Speaker 2>to loop Joe Gargan into a plot to tell everyone

0:50:45.960 --> 0:50:48.879
<v Speaker 2>that Mary Joe was just the driver of the car

0:50:48.960 --> 0:50:52.879
<v Speaker 2>alone and that Ted wasn't even in the car. And

0:50:53.200 --> 0:50:57.759
<v Speaker 2>this one, this version, I think has some like there

0:50:57.800 --> 0:51:00.520
<v Speaker 2>are some things that lend a little credence to this version.

0:51:00.800 --> 0:51:04.440
<v Speaker 2>For example, Teddy going back to the hotel and trying

0:51:04.440 --> 0:51:07.640
<v Speaker 2>to establish that he was at the hotel by calling

0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:10.759
<v Speaker 2>and making a complaint about noise and that sort, and

0:51:10.760 --> 0:51:13.279
<v Speaker 2>then like pretending the next morning like everything's fine, right,

0:51:13.400 --> 0:51:16.680
<v Speaker 2>and basically like establishing witnesses to say, like, what Teddy

0:51:16.719 --> 0:51:19.560
<v Speaker 2>was at the hotel the whole night. So this is

0:51:19.560 --> 0:51:20.439
<v Speaker 2>an interesting one.

0:51:20.480 --> 0:51:22.920
<v Speaker 1>And what they do in succession is they say the

0:51:23.120 --> 0:51:25.680
<v Speaker 1>remember Kendall killed.

0:51:25.480 --> 0:51:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh of course, yes, if you weren't driving, he was driving, Like, yes, exactly,

0:51:30.800 --> 0:51:33.719
<v Speaker 2>weren't even there? Yeah, So I think this is an

0:51:33.760 --> 0:51:39.279
<v Speaker 2>interesting theory. A reporter Jack Anderson also claimed that Ted

0:51:39.360 --> 0:51:42.320
<v Speaker 2>actually asked Joe at one point to take the fall,

0:51:43.160 --> 0:51:46.799
<v Speaker 2>which Joe Gargin emphatically denied. None of these theories are

0:51:46.840 --> 0:51:50.120
<v Speaker 2>provable right there. We just don't know what really happened

0:51:50.320 --> 0:51:53.319
<v Speaker 2>outside of the testimonies of the people involved. All these

0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:58.040
<v Speaker 2>rumors aside, was there any justice served well, The Kopechne

0:51:58.160 --> 0:52:01.920
<v Speaker 2>family did receive approximately hundred forty thousand dollars in settlements.

0:52:02.640 --> 0:52:04.719
<v Speaker 2>According to some reports in nineteen seventy four, it was

0:52:04.760 --> 0:52:08.520
<v Speaker 2>paid in full by Kennedy's auto insurance. Other sources claim

0:52:08.560 --> 0:52:11.959
<v Speaker 2>it was paid perhaps in part by Kennedy himself. Of course,

0:52:12.000 --> 0:52:15.080
<v Speaker 2>there's no amount of financial settlement to a family that

0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:18.160
<v Speaker 2>can right this kind of wrong. Ted would try to

0:52:18.280 --> 0:52:21.480
<v Speaker 2>run for president one time, only in nineteen eighty when

0:52:21.480 --> 0:52:24.480
<v Speaker 2>he bid for the Democratic nominee against Jimmy Carter, but

0:52:24.640 --> 0:52:28.960
<v Speaker 2>he lost. What's complicated here is that Ted would go

0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:32.479
<v Speaker 2>on to live a long and very productive life. As

0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:36.120
<v Speaker 2>a Massachusetts Senator, he helped usher in countless pieces of

0:52:36.200 --> 0:52:39.480
<v Speaker 2>vital and substance of legislation. He played a major role

0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:44.080
<v Speaker 2>in advocating for reforms across healthcare and education, civil rights,

0:52:44.120 --> 0:52:47.600
<v Speaker 2>and immigration. According to the United States Senate website, he

0:52:47.640 --> 0:52:51.880
<v Speaker 2>authored over two five hundred bills, several hundred of which

0:52:52.120 --> 0:52:56.920
<v Speaker 2>became law. That's insane, I mean, that's just an epic

0:52:57.040 --> 0:53:00.360
<v Speaker 2>political legacy. After he passed in two thousand and nine,

0:53:00.480 --> 0:53:03.920
<v Speaker 2>President Obama said of Ted's legacy, quote, for five decades,

0:53:04.000 --> 0:53:08.320
<v Speaker 2>virtually every major piece of legislation to advance the civil rights, health,

0:53:08.360 --> 0:53:11.359
<v Speaker 2>and economic well being of the American people bore his

0:53:11.480 --> 0:53:15.279
<v Speaker 2>name and resulted from his efforts. That same year that

0:53:15.320 --> 0:53:18.279
<v Speaker 2>he died, Ted released an autobiography where he confirmed the

0:53:18.280 --> 0:53:21.160
<v Speaker 2>incident remained a burden through his whole life. He wrote,

0:53:21.360 --> 0:53:23.560
<v Speaker 2>and this is a quote, and that this is wild

0:53:23.880 --> 0:53:27.600
<v Speaker 2>to me. This quote is really interesting. He says, that

0:53:27.719 --> 0:53:30.920
<v Speaker 2>night on chap Equittic Island ended in a horrible tragedy

0:53:30.920 --> 0:53:33.080
<v Speaker 2>that haunts me every day of my life. I had

0:53:33.120 --> 0:53:36.799
<v Speaker 2>suffered sudden and violent loss far too many times, but

0:53:36.920 --> 0:53:40.880
<v Speaker 2>this night was different. This night, I was responsible. It

0:53:40.920 --> 0:53:44.239
<v Speaker 2>was an accident, but I was responsible. Wow. Does that

0:53:44.280 --> 0:53:47.160
<v Speaker 2>feel like he took responsibility? I mean it's he's literally

0:53:47.239 --> 0:53:50.319
<v Speaker 2>saying I was responsible? Is it too little, too late?

0:53:50.640 --> 0:53:53.759
<v Speaker 2>I don't know where, do you? Yeah? It's look I

0:53:54.160 --> 0:53:54.640
<v Speaker 2>like it.

0:53:54.719 --> 0:53:57.760
<v Speaker 1>I like that there's some ownership there and given the time,

0:53:58.360 --> 0:53:59.359
<v Speaker 1>Like that's pretty good.

0:53:59.480 --> 0:54:01.720
<v Speaker 2>Right, It's so heavy, it's hard to joke about.

0:54:01.880 --> 0:54:05.200
<v Speaker 1>But there is something about saying something just as you're leaving.

0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:09.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, yeah, Yeah, it's there's something the part that's

0:54:09.080 --> 0:54:13.440
<v Speaker 2>the part that feels like he's not responsible, that he

0:54:13.440 --> 0:54:17.280
<v Speaker 2>didn't take responsibility. He said the words right and and

0:54:17.360 --> 0:54:19.480
<v Speaker 2>but you know he was on the way out. It's

0:54:19.480 --> 0:54:24.040
<v Speaker 2>a schedule's email from a dead person. Right. Oh wow.

0:54:24.320 --> 0:54:26.520
<v Speaker 1>Clearly he was haunted by it, I believe when he's like,

0:54:26.600 --> 0:54:30.239
<v Speaker 1>I was haunted by it, and it seems really I

0:54:30.280 --> 0:54:32.200
<v Speaker 1>think the I'm going to say it again, the fascination

0:54:32.280 --> 0:54:34.600
<v Speaker 1>with this story is because we all know we have

0:54:34.640 --> 0:54:37.960
<v Speaker 1>the capacity to be so self centered and so self serving.

0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah that you would.

0:54:39.760 --> 0:54:41.879
<v Speaker 1>Who wouldn't use their money and their power and their

0:54:41.880 --> 0:54:43.920
<v Speaker 1>influence to get away with something that's again what they

0:54:43.920 --> 0:54:44.759
<v Speaker 1>did on succession.

0:54:45.040 --> 0:54:47.719
<v Speaker 2>We love stories like this. Yeah, yeah, I just want

0:54:47.760 --> 0:54:50.240
<v Speaker 2>to just tell our listeners if you're interested in the story,

0:54:50.239 --> 0:54:52.880
<v Speaker 2>there's some really great resources out there. One is a

0:54:52.920 --> 0:54:57.720
<v Speaker 2>podcast called cover Up that People Magazine did with Cadence thirteen.

0:54:57.800 --> 0:55:00.400
<v Speaker 2>It's hosted by Liz McNeil, and it's a really deep,

0:55:00.480 --> 0:55:03.279
<v Speaker 2>like multi episode dive into this. She talks to a

0:55:03.280 --> 0:55:06.279
<v Speaker 2>lot of people who were there. Yes, she talks to

0:55:06.320 --> 0:55:08.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of primary sources if you will, like people

0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:12.239
<v Speaker 2>who were actually there or involved and uh, and it's

0:55:12.280 --> 0:55:16.040
<v Speaker 2>fascinating and and it doesn't necessarily clarify a lot, but

0:55:16.080 --> 0:55:18.920
<v Speaker 2>it does give you a much deeper set of uh

0:55:19.440 --> 0:55:24.600
<v Speaker 2>uh of information. I'm not I'm not trying to make

0:55:24.840 --> 0:55:30.640
<v Speaker 2>uh but the but the podcast does make a splash

0:55:30.719 --> 0:55:34.520
<v Speaker 2>on how no, but that's great. And then of course

0:55:34.560 --> 0:55:39.839
<v Speaker 2>the movie Chap Quick rock Bottom really come on. So

0:55:40.280 --> 0:55:44.560
<v Speaker 2>uh and the movie is good. The movie, I'm very

0:55:44.640 --> 0:55:46.520
<v Speaker 2>very proud of it, and it's very good. And uh, I

0:55:46.520 --> 0:55:49.759
<v Speaker 2>don't even think I mentioned uh Kate Mara yet. She

0:55:49.800 --> 0:55:53.560
<v Speaker 2>plays Mary Joe Kopecney beautifully and very movingly. I think

0:55:53.560 --> 0:55:56.920
<v Speaker 2>it's a very strong depiction that's rooted in a lot

0:55:57.000 --> 0:56:01.560
<v Speaker 2>of what is sort of more consensus take on this narrative.

0:56:01.640 --> 0:56:04.719
<v Speaker 2>But again, it is all very controversial. Now here's the

0:56:04.800 --> 0:56:08.239
<v Speaker 2>last bit of controversy. I'm at least a diver. Yes, So,

0:56:08.320 --> 0:56:11.360
<v Speaker 2>John Ferrar, the diver who recovered Mary Joe's body, testified

0:56:11.360 --> 0:56:14.120
<v Speaker 2>in court and maintains to this day that he believed

0:56:14.120 --> 0:56:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Mary Joe survived in an air pocket within the car,

0:56:16.719 --> 0:56:19.960
<v Speaker 2>possibly for as long as thirty minutes before suffocating. In

0:56:20.000 --> 0:56:24.799
<v Speaker 2>other words, had authorities been notified immediately, she may have

0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:29.200
<v Speaker 2>been saved. This is so so grim. The idea that

0:56:29.280 --> 0:56:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Kennedy's delay may have been the reason Mary Joe didn't survive.

0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:36.160
<v Speaker 1>Look that that very well, I sound like a Laurier.

0:56:36.200 --> 0:56:37.960
<v Speaker 1>That very well may be true, But what is he

0:56:38.040 --> 0:56:38.719
<v Speaker 1>basing that on.

0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:41.839
<v Speaker 2>He based it on the position of her body in

0:56:41.880 --> 0:56:43.959
<v Speaker 2>the car that she had and that she had found

0:56:43.960 --> 0:56:46.360
<v Speaker 2>an air pocket in the footwell of the car, and.

0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Again that he was right there. And how do you

0:56:48.960 --> 0:56:51.200
<v Speaker 1>know that wasn't thirty seconds of air?

0:56:52.360 --> 0:56:54.879
<v Speaker 2>I mean, these are knowable things, like the volume of air.

0:56:55.560 --> 0:56:58.399
<v Speaker 2>But then the other thing is that the I mean,

0:56:58.440 --> 0:57:00.840
<v Speaker 2>this is really dark, but there was like scratching on

0:57:00.920 --> 0:57:04.640
<v Speaker 2>the inside the footwell. And he believes that she had

0:57:04.760 --> 0:57:07.000
<v Speaker 2>that she had positioned her body in such a way

0:57:07.040 --> 0:57:11.200
<v Speaker 2>as to like swim upwards and had accidentally found this

0:57:11.239 --> 0:57:15.000
<v Speaker 2>air pocket, which then kind of like disoriented her and

0:57:15.160 --> 0:57:17.560
<v Speaker 2>prevented her from actually swimming out of an open window.

0:57:18.880 --> 0:57:22.200
<v Speaker 2>And this is why the lack of autopsy is so critical,

0:57:22.400 --> 0:57:25.160
<v Speaker 2>because the autopsy would would have told a lot more

0:57:25.240 --> 0:57:29.560
<v Speaker 2>detail about how she died, whether it was this lack

0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:32.880
<v Speaker 2>of oxygen from like you know, the air pocket running out,

0:57:33.040 --> 0:57:37.280
<v Speaker 2>or drowning, both of which have different effects. On your lungs. Anyway,

0:57:37.640 --> 0:57:41.400
<v Speaker 2>that's the story. It's obviously very insane. It's been really

0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:43.120
<v Speaker 2>fun to have you on this podcast.

0:57:43.680 --> 0:57:46.960
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, I always embarrassing you, even if it's I mean,

0:57:47.000 --> 0:57:49.280
<v Speaker 1>this is a dark this is a dark one.

0:57:49.440 --> 0:57:51.600
<v Speaker 2>I took you down a dark road. No, I know

0:57:51.720 --> 0:57:52.240
<v Speaker 2>it's good.

0:57:52.360 --> 0:57:55.520
<v Speaker 1>It's an interesting I can see why it resonates and

0:57:55.560 --> 0:57:58.280
<v Speaker 1>has echoed into the public psyche because it really is.

0:57:58.560 --> 0:58:00.680
<v Speaker 1>It's like a telltale heart kind of story. It's a

0:58:00.720 --> 0:58:06.480
<v Speaker 1>story about like guilt, shame, privilege, power and what you

0:58:06.480 --> 0:58:09.400
<v Speaker 1>would do to save your own ass, which is always

0:58:09.880 --> 0:58:14.040
<v Speaker 1>always interesting, and then the ramifications of that. So it's

0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:17.480
<v Speaker 1>really interesting. I do think that Diver couldn't have possibly

0:58:17.520 --> 0:58:19.480
<v Speaker 1>known that she was a life for thirty minutes. That's

0:58:19.520 --> 0:58:21.280
<v Speaker 1>just something you say to Getting People magazine.

0:58:22.240 --> 0:58:25.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna say it. Shots fired and thank you so much.

0:58:25.120 --> 0:58:25.480
<v Speaker 2>Ma man.

0:58:25.520 --> 0:58:28.400
<v Speaker 1>I really love doing this. And you're far more handsome

0:58:28.440 --> 0:58:30.960
<v Speaker 1>than I even remember, and you're always as funny as

0:58:30.960 --> 0:58:33.880
<v Speaker 1>I recall. This is snafu where I take the get.

0:58:36.880 --> 0:58:38.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why I'm doing that, Pete. Tell us

0:58:38.920 --> 0:58:41.360
<v Speaker 2>something where we can see you or what's happening with

0:58:41.400 --> 0:58:42.200
<v Speaker 2>you right now.

0:58:42.160 --> 0:58:45.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's funny. This is not a plan I have it.

0:58:45.680 --> 0:58:47.560
<v Speaker 1>This is my first kid's book right here, spells to

0:58:47.560 --> 0:58:50.440
<v Speaker 1>cast on your parents. Unfortunately it's not in here. This

0:58:50.520 --> 0:58:53.640
<v Speaker 1>is my daughter drew in here. But I made so

0:58:53.680 --> 0:58:55.320
<v Speaker 1>I still do art. I did the art and the

0:58:55.360 --> 0:58:58.400
<v Speaker 1>words for this. It's a book that obviously the kid

0:58:58.440 --> 0:59:01.120
<v Speaker 1>gets to cast spells on you grown up that's reading it.

0:59:01.160 --> 0:59:03.400
<v Speaker 2>So it's a funny book and a silly book. We

0:59:03.480 --> 0:59:05.720
<v Speaker 2>know it was all chat GBT, but but keep going.

0:59:06.160 --> 0:59:08.360
<v Speaker 2>This is one hundred percent human made. In fact.

0:59:09.040 --> 0:59:11.360
<v Speaker 1>You know how in kids book they kids books, they

0:59:11.400 --> 0:59:14.160
<v Speaker 1>say the medium do you ever like look like it'll

0:59:14.160 --> 0:59:17.120
<v Speaker 1>say in the fine print the medium that they made.

0:59:16.920 --> 0:59:19.880
<v Speaker 2>The art in. I've never noticed that, and I've rendered that.

0:59:20.000 --> 0:59:22.080
<v Speaker 2>I've looked through books and like wonder, like oh, this

0:59:22.120 --> 0:59:25.720
<v Speaker 2>is clearly just or like yes, look on the copyright page.

0:59:25.760 --> 0:59:27.600
<v Speaker 2>It'll be at the bottom and ours.

0:59:27.800 --> 0:59:31.160
<v Speaker 1>I did the art in my book in tape, in

0:59:31.240 --> 0:59:36.720
<v Speaker 1>masking tape, different colored tape and sharpie and uh and

0:59:36.800 --> 0:59:39.160
<v Speaker 1>I wrote at the bottom of it. And this book

0:59:39.200 --> 0:59:40.520
<v Speaker 1>is one hundred percent human made.

0:59:40.560 --> 0:59:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Isn't that weird? That's very very cool?

0:59:42.640 --> 0:59:44.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh my oh, I got my light. My special is

0:59:44.920 --> 0:59:46.720
<v Speaker 1>on YouTube. All you have to do is type Pete

0:59:46.720 --> 0:59:49.440
<v Speaker 1>Holmes into YouTube. It's a website and the special is

0:59:49.440 --> 0:59:51.520
<v Speaker 1>called Silly Silly fun Boy. It's my newest hour and

0:59:51.560 --> 0:59:53.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm very, very proud of it, and I'm so happy

0:59:53.720 --> 0:59:56.280
<v Speaker 1>people are finding it for free. Tell watch on YouTube.

0:59:56.320 --> 0:59:59.040
<v Speaker 2>That's so badass. Congrats and I can't wait to see it.

0:59:59.160 --> 1:00:01.120
<v Speaker 2>I hope you like it. Thank you for having me,

1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:03.960
<v Speaker 2>but thank you, pet It's been a goddamn delight to

1:00:04.000 --> 1:00:08.480
<v Speaker 2>have you. Snafu is a production of iHeart Podcasts and

1:00:08.680 --> 1:00:12.800
<v Speaker 2>Snapfo Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific

1:00:12.800 --> 1:00:16.520
<v Speaker 2>Electric Picture Company. Post production and creative support from good

1:00:16.560 --> 1:00:21.040
<v Speaker 2>Egg Audio. Our executive producers are me Ed Helms, Mike Falbo,

1:00:21.200 --> 1:00:25.200
<v Speaker 2>Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, and Dylan Fagan. This episode was

1:00:25.240 --> 1:00:29.320
<v Speaker 2>produced by Alyssa Martino and Tory Smith. Our managing producer

1:00:29.440 --> 1:00:33.560
<v Speaker 2>is Carl Nellis. Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical

1:00:33.600 --> 1:00:37.360
<v Speaker 2>direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Additional story editing from

1:00:37.400 --> 1:00:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Carl Nellis. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and

1:00:41.080 --> 1:00:45.400
<v Speaker 2>branding by Matt Gosson and The Collected Works. Legal review

1:00:45.520 --> 1:00:50.040
<v Speaker 2>from Dan Welsh, Meghan Halson, and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks

1:00:50.080 --> 1:00:53.720
<v Speaker 2>to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at

1:00:53.760 --> 1:00:58.880
<v Speaker 2>iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman and Nikki Atoor.

1:00:59.320 --> 1:01:01.280
<v Speaker 2>While I have you, don't forget to pick up a

1:01:01.320 --> 1:01:05.360
<v Speaker 2>copy of my book, Snaffoo, The Definitive Guide to History's

1:01:05.440 --> 1:01:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Greatest screw Ups. It's available now from any book retailer.

1:01:09.240 --> 1:01:13.840
<v Speaker 2>Just go to Snaffoo dashbook dot com. Thanks for listening,

1:01:14.040 --> 1:01:18.760
<v Speaker 2>and see you next week.