WEBVTT - Too Many People

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

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<v Speaker 2>What about too Many People?

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<v Speaker 3>Two or eight People is on an album called ram.

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<v Speaker 3>It was at a time when John was firing missiles

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<v Speaker 3>at me. I don't know what he hoped again, other

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<v Speaker 3>than punching me in the face. And this kind of

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<v Speaker 3>annoyed me. Obviously, I suddenly decided to turn my missiles

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<v Speaker 3>on him.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm Paul, will do And I've been fortunate to spend

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<v Speaker 4>time with one of the greatest songwriters of the era.

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<v Speaker 5>And will you look at me? I'm going on to

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<v Speaker 5>I'm actually a.

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<v Speaker 4>Performer, That is sir Paul McCartney. We worked together on

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<v Speaker 4>a book looking at the of more than one hundred

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<v Speaker 4>and fifty of his songs, and we recorded many hours

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<v Speaker 4>of our conversations.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh she'm a songwriter?

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<v Speaker 5>My god? Well that that crypture, homie.

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<v Speaker 4>This is McCartney, A life in lyrics, a masterclass, a memoir,

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<v Speaker 4>and an improvised journey with one of the most iconic

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<v Speaker 4>figures in popular music. In this episode, too Many People

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<v Speaker 4>that you.

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<v Speaker 6>Touban now?

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<v Speaker 3>Can you.

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<v Speaker 4>Who broke up the Beatles? Was it Paul McCartney or

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<v Speaker 4>was it John Lennon? Was it the death of manager

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<v Speaker 4>Brian Epstein? The interference of businessman Alan Klein, or somehow

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<v Speaker 4>the mere presence of Yogo Ono. No matter how many

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<v Speaker 4>times this question has been asked, trying to answer it

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<v Speaker 4>seems futile. There are many reasons why the Beatles broke up,

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<v Speaker 4>so in this episode we won't be trying to find

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<v Speaker 4>a definitive cause for the Beatles breakup. Instead, we will

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<v Speaker 4>be telling the story of its aftermath.

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<v Speaker 3>I was keeping largely quiet about John and the Beatles

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<v Speaker 3>sort of split up. I didn't really have many accusations

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<v Speaker 3>to fling but he was flinging quite a few. Being John,

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<v Speaker 3>they were quite hurtful bobs to be flinging around, and

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<v Speaker 3>I was the body they were being flung at. So

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<v Speaker 3>I was having to accept this.

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<v Speaker 4>But in a nineteen sixty nine business meeting, John Lennon

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<v Speaker 4>met an announcement.

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<v Speaker 3>There was a few of us there, and he said, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>I've been wanting to tell you this, but I'm leaving

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<v Speaker 3>the Beatles. Well a bit shocked, it was, you know, me,

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<v Speaker 3>George and Ringo, we're all a bit shocked.

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<v Speaker 1>Why why why? And I think I've told you.

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<v Speaker 5>I remember him saying, oh, this is quite quite exciting.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 5>That was very John, that was sort of what you

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<v Speaker 5>admired about John.

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<v Speaker 1>It was.

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<v Speaker 5>It was a bit of a nooney in the nicest

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<v Speaker 5>possible way.

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<v Speaker 2>It was like breaking up with someone.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, and that's what he said.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like a divorce, and he had just had a divorce,

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<v Speaker 3>so he was saying, yeah, you know, there's an excitement

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<v Speaker 3>to this. And I think obviously we whilst all of

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<v Speaker 3>us could see what he meant, those of you left

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<v Speaker 3>in the opposite.

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<v Speaker 1>Side of the borderline.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not quite so funny.

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<v Speaker 4>When John Lennon announced his departure from the group, it

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<v Speaker 4>was clear to the other three Beatles that the band

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<v Speaker 4>was done for good.

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<v Speaker 3>It was such a unit and such a foursome and

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think any of us, I mean, we joked

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<v Speaker 3>about it, you know, we joked about forming a group

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<v Speaker 3>called the Threetles.

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<v Speaker 5>That was pretty good, but you know, it was never

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<v Speaker 5>anything more than the joke.

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<v Speaker 4>In that same meeting where John Lennon announced he was

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<v Speaker 4>leaving the group, he also told his band Meds that

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<v Speaker 4>he was set to go along with the manager Alan Klein.

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<v Speaker 4>McCartney was resistant to trusting Alan Klein, who was already

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<v Speaker 4>known for his mishandling of the Rolling Stones.

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<v Speaker 3>The whole story in an absolute nutshell because we were

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<v Speaker 3>having a group meeting and John appeared at it and

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<v Speaker 3>he said, I've just been to see this guy Alan

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<v Speaker 3>Klein in the Dorchester me and Joko. He's promised Joko

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<v Speaker 3>an exhibition up in Syracuse, and I think this guy's great.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh and by the way, I'm leaving the group. So

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<v Speaker 3>that was basically how all of that happened. And it

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<v Speaker 3>was looking like Alan Clyn would have because it was

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<v Speaker 3>three to one.

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<v Speaker 1>The other two went with John.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's looking like Alan Klein was going to own

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<v Speaker 3>our entire mental empire, which is an idea that I was.

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<v Speaker 1>Not too keen on.

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<v Speaker 3>I just thought, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know

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<v Speaker 3>this guy has got such a bad reputation, and good

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<v Speaker 3>old John Johnny goes, oh, if he's that badly talked about,

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<v Speaker 3>he can't be all bad, you know. To John, there

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<v Speaker 3>was this kind of distorted way of thinking.

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<v Speaker 4>What followed was a series of lawsuits between McCartney and

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<v Speaker 4>the rest of the band over who would control the

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<v Speaker 4>rights to their music.

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<v Speaker 1>So all in all I had to I had to

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<v Speaker 1>fight them for.

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<v Speaker 3>My bit of the Beatles and in actual fact for

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<v Speaker 3>their bit of the Beatles, which many years later they

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<v Speaker 3>kind of you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, realized, realized that almost thanked me for. And nowadays,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, people get it. They get it, and.

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<v Speaker 3>As I had to fight them, I think they thought, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, and felt they were the ones who were

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<v Speaker 3>being hurt by this. But the hurt that went down

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<v Speaker 3>during that period though, was them feeling hurt, me feeling hurt.

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<v Speaker 3>But John being John, John would be the one who

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<v Speaker 3>would want to write a hurtful songs his kind of bag.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 6>I don't believe in Peters.

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<v Speaker 3>I just believe in me.

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<v Speaker 4>In his nineteen seventy song God, Lennon announced the end

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<v Speaker 4>of the Beatles dream Dreams Over.

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<v Speaker 5>What can I say?

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<v Speaker 4>And to publicize the release of his new album, he

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<v Speaker 4>was interviewed by Rolling Stone Fonder and publisher Yan Winner.

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<v Speaker 7>I no longer believe in in myth, you know, and

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<v Speaker 7>Beatles is another myth. I don't believe in it. The

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<v Speaker 7>dream's over, you know. And I'm not just talking about

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<v Speaker 7>the Beatles as though, I'm talking about the generation thing.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 7>The dreams over like it's over, you know, and we

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<v Speaker 7>got to well, I have any of you personally got

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<v Speaker 7>to get down to so called reality.

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<v Speaker 3>John would do it in some of the songs. He

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<v Speaker 3>was writing some of the comments about how the Beatles

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<v Speaker 3>did nothing.

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<v Speaker 1>It was rubbish, The Beatles was crap.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know I told you Yoko Saint Paul never

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<v Speaker 3>did anything. All he did was book the studio.

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<v Speaker 7>It looks so awful. When I said I don't like

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<v Speaker 7>this and I don't like that, it's just that I

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<v Speaker 7>wouldn't you know. I don't like many of the Beatles

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<v Speaker 7>records either. You know, my own taste is different from

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<v Speaker 7>that which I've played sometimes, which is called cop out

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<v Speaker 7>to make money over whatever or because I didn't know

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<v Speaker 7>any better.

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<v Speaker 5>So I'm having to read all this stuff and I'll

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<v Speaker 5>there one hand, they.

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<v Speaker 1>Go, oh, fuck off, your fucking idiot, and that's my

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<v Speaker 1>main sentiment.

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<v Speaker 5>But on the other hand, it's like, what why would

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<v Speaker 5>you say that?

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<v Speaker 1>Why would you want to be? What is it about me?

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<v Speaker 5>Like you're annoyed at me or you're jealous or what

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<v Speaker 5>is it?

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<v Speaker 1>You know?

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<v Speaker 3>And John had all of those emotions wrapped up into

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<v Speaker 3>a ball of lenon is.

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<v Speaker 4>That in too many people? His nineteen seventies version of

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<v Speaker 4>a disc track, McCartney made a veiled response to Lennon's

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<v Speaker 4>harsh comments.

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<v Speaker 3>I meant, I think literally people sort of grabbing for

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<v Speaker 3>a piece of the cake, a slice.

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<v Speaker 2>Piece of the pie, also the apple.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah exactly. Yeah. So I think that because it had

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<v Speaker 3>all been just a little bit weird and a bit nasty,

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<v Speaker 3>I was just basically saying, let's be sensible, let's be peaceful.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's you know, we we've we had a lot going

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<v Speaker 3>and what's actually split us up is.

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<v Speaker 1>The business stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>That's pretty pathetic, really, so let's try and be peaceful.

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<v Speaker 8>Weird.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it was quite mild, but the idea of

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<v Speaker 3>too many people preaching practices was aimed at him and

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<v Speaker 3>yoga telling everyone what they.

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<v Speaker 1>Ought to do.

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<v Speaker 3>You should do this, should do that, And I just

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<v Speaker 3>got fed up being told what to do. So I

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<v Speaker 3>wrote the song, and it was you made your first mistake,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, you took your lucky break and broke it

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<v Speaker 3>in two. Was me basically saying, you've made this break, so.

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<v Speaker 1>Good luck with it. But I say it was pretty mild.

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't really come out with any savagery. The first

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<v Speaker 3>person and the chorus was basically that was all the

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<v Speaker 3>anger I could muster. And when I did the vocal

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<v Speaker 3>one of the second line, too many reaching for a

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<v Speaker 3>piece of cake. I remember singing it, and if you

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<v Speaker 3>listen to it, it says, piss off cake, too many

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<v Speaker 3>people reaching for a piss off cake.

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<v Speaker 8>Many reading.

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<v Speaker 3>I was just getting back at him, but I wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>really in it many.

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<v Speaker 6>Lucky.

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<v Speaker 4>Despite the mild nature of the insults in too Many People,

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<v Speaker 4>Lennon was fired up and responded with the song how

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<v Speaker 4>do You Sleep on his nineteen seventy one album Imagine.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, I understand some of the stuff he was doing.

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<v Speaker 3>He actually had Alan Klein and Yoko in the room

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<v Speaker 3>suggesting lyrics. So all you ever did was yesterday, apparently,

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<v Speaker 3>was Alan Clein's suggestion.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow.

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<v Speaker 3>So John McCay, hey, hey, great, put that in. And

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<v Speaker 3>I can see the joy in the fun and the

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<v Speaker 3>laughs they had doing it. But I've got to work

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<v Speaker 3>very hard to not take this too seriously. But in

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<v Speaker 3>the back of my mind, I'm going, wait a minute,

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<v Speaker 3>all I ever did was yesterday. Yeah, well, it's funny,

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<v Speaker 3>it's funny pun But all I ever did was yesterday.

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<v Speaker 3>Let him be Long Wining Road, Elean repe Lady Madonna,

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<v Speaker 3>fuck you John, Too many people sharing party lines? I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know what that means except people used to have

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<v Speaker 3>party lines and you coming on their conversations.

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<v Speaker 9>But the party line of Paul is also tolling the

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<v Speaker 9>party line.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, this is our position here, and we're fixed

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<v Speaker 2>in that position.

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<v Speaker 3>Basically, all of these things were just whether they were

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<v Speaker 3>actually physically right, whether John and Joko slept in late

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<v Speaker 3>or not. Yeah, they were all veiled references to people

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<v Speaker 3>thinking that the only truth is their own truth, which

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<v Speaker 3>is what was coming from John and Yoko. And you

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<v Speaker 3>know the thing is it was crap. War is over. Well,

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<v Speaker 3>no it isn't. But I get what you're saying. War

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<v Speaker 3>is over if you want it. So if enough people

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<v Speaker 3>want war to be over, it'll be over. I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>sure that's entirely true, but it's a great sentiment. It's

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<v Speaker 3>a nice thing to think and to say. I'd been

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<v Speaker 3>able to accept Yoko in the studio on a blanket

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<v Speaker 3>in front of my app I worked hard to come

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<v Speaker 3>to terms with that, but then when we broke up,

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<v Speaker 3>when everyone was now flailing around, John turned nasty. So

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<v Speaker 3>this is me sort of saying shut up. Really.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, that's a song that has a particular purpose.

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<v Speaker 1>Too many people.

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<v Speaker 9>Yeah, for better or worse it is, you know, getting back.

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<v Speaker 9>That's not really a feature of your songs much, is it.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I don't do that much.

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<v Speaker 5>And Jesus.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, McCartney's lyrics were more often about love than competition.

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<v Speaker 4>He enjoyed Lennon. Both wrote many songs with the intention

0:17:13.344 --> 0:17:17.464
<v Speaker 4>of impressing or even upstaging one another.

0:17:17.984 --> 0:17:18.544
<v Speaker 1>That was the.

0:17:18.544 --> 0:17:23.144
<v Speaker 3>Nature of all competitiveness. And we're both very upfront about that.

0:17:23.384 --> 0:17:25.064
<v Speaker 3>You know, if you'd write a good one, I'd feel

0:17:25.104 --> 0:17:26.544
<v Speaker 3>like that to write a better one.

0:17:26.744 --> 0:17:26.944
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:17:27.104 --> 0:17:32.104
<v Speaker 9>That is a very very common phenomenon, very understandable one.

0:17:32.304 --> 0:17:33.584
<v Speaker 1>It's also a great.

0:17:33.344 --> 0:17:37.424
<v Speaker 5>Thing because it's inspiration, you know, it's it's motivation.

0:17:38.384 --> 0:17:42.264
<v Speaker 3>If you've got someone who you respect who comes up

0:17:42.264 --> 0:17:43.384
<v Speaker 3>with something rather good.

0:17:44.144 --> 0:17:46.144
<v Speaker 5>Sure it happens to everyone totally.

0:17:46.544 --> 0:17:51.384
<v Speaker 10>You know, you'll suddenly see so and so's new poem

0:17:51.424 --> 0:17:56.424
<v Speaker 10>and think, hmm. You don't necessarily have to tell anyone no,

0:17:56.984 --> 0:18:01.944
<v Speaker 10>but in your own private mind you just think, well,

0:18:01.944 --> 0:18:02.584
<v Speaker 10>I could do that.

0:18:03.784 --> 0:18:07.744
<v Speaker 4>There's no doubt this friendly competition contributed to the beatles

0:18:07.904 --> 0:18:13.904
<v Speaker 4>prolific output. After the band's disintegration, However, the competition between

0:18:13.984 --> 0:18:17.184
<v Speaker 4>McCartney and Lennon was no longer about who could write

0:18:17.184 --> 0:18:21.464
<v Speaker 4>a more catchy chorus or skillful bridge. It was about

0:18:21.744 --> 0:18:25.904
<v Speaker 4>who could fling the most hurt Here again is how

0:18:25.904 --> 0:18:27.024
<v Speaker 4>do you sleep.

0:18:29.424 --> 0:18:33.744
<v Speaker 3>Those e.

0:18:41.544 --> 0:18:42.224
<v Speaker 8>Mis sake?

0:18:58.744 --> 0:19:00.984
<v Speaker 5>You gotta remember I sued him in court.

0:19:01.424 --> 0:19:07.384
<v Speaker 3>I sued my friends from Liverpool Lifeline friends in court.

0:19:07.904 --> 0:19:11.744
<v Speaker 3>So there's a lot of getting over that has had

0:19:11.784 --> 0:19:12.304
<v Speaker 3>to be done.

0:19:12.544 --> 0:19:16.824
<v Speaker 4>As much as too many people represented McCartney on the attack,

0:19:17.464 --> 0:19:21.904
<v Speaker 4>it wasn't aligned with his natural disposition. Six months later,

0:19:22.264 --> 0:19:26.704
<v Speaker 4>he made an attempt at appeasement in Dear Friend, a

0:19:26.824 --> 0:19:30.424
<v Speaker 4>song from his nineteen seventy one album Wildlife.

0:19:31.824 --> 0:19:41.184
<v Speaker 8>Dear Friend, what's the time? Is this really the boer?

0:19:44.224 --> 0:19:48.664
<v Speaker 8>Does it really mean so much?

0:19:48.944 --> 0:19:49.784
<v Speaker 5>Do you?

0:19:51.504 --> 0:19:51.824
<v Speaker 6>I mean?

0:19:52.624 --> 0:19:54.584
<v Speaker 1>Why is this argument going on?

0:19:55.264 --> 0:19:56.144
<v Speaker 8>You're afraid?

0:19:57.384 --> 0:19:59.464
<v Speaker 1>Is it because you're afraid of something?

0:20:00.104 --> 0:20:01.704
<v Speaker 8>Oh? Is it true?

0:20:02.904 --> 0:20:05.984
<v Speaker 3>Are you afraid of the split up? Are you afraid

0:20:06.024 --> 0:20:09.344
<v Speaker 3>of me doing something without you?

0:20:09.984 --> 0:20:10.624
<v Speaker 2>Dear friend?

0:20:12.864 --> 0:20:13.904
<v Speaker 11>Through the word.

0:20:15.984 --> 0:20:19.384
<v Speaker 8>I mad love with a friend of mine?

0:20:20.664 --> 0:20:24.104
<v Speaker 1>Are you afraid of the consequences of this?

0:20:24.824 --> 0:20:27.064
<v Speaker 8>Who knows newly?

0:20:29.664 --> 0:20:31.864
<v Speaker 5>And then the little rhyme is or is it true?

0:20:32.544 --> 0:20:32.744
<v Speaker 5>You know?

0:20:34.144 --> 0:20:34.624
<v Speaker 1>Is it true?

0:20:34.784 --> 0:20:37.824
<v Speaker 5>Is all these hurtful allegations true?

0:20:38.224 --> 0:20:51.104
<v Speaker 8>Ah, is it true?

0:20:52.464 --> 0:20:56.144
<v Speaker 4>I was aware of the McCartney Lenon feud as it

0:20:56.224 --> 0:21:00.864
<v Speaker 4>was happening, and I heard these very public arguments in

0:21:00.984 --> 0:21:04.984
<v Speaker 4>the songs. But I've always wondered if there was indeed

0:21:05.144 --> 0:21:10.384
<v Speaker 4>a form of reconciliation. Did Lenon ever listen to Dear Friend?

0:21:11.104 --> 0:21:12.544
<v Speaker 1>I would think he did.

0:21:13.184 --> 0:21:19.224
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I would think he listened to my records, you know,

0:21:19.224 --> 0:21:20.064
<v Speaker 3>when they came out.

0:21:20.784 --> 0:21:23.264
<v Speaker 2>Did they ever respond to this in particular?

0:21:23.544 --> 0:21:27.344
<v Speaker 1>No? No, that was not his way.

0:21:27.584 --> 0:21:31.824
<v Speaker 3>You know, we were guys, and it's not it's not

0:21:31.904 --> 0:21:34.864
<v Speaker 3>like a boy and girl. It's like it's a guy

0:21:34.904 --> 0:21:38.064
<v Speaker 3>and guy. It's a boy and boy, and you don't,

0:21:38.384 --> 0:21:38.664
<v Speaker 3>you know.

0:21:38.704 --> 0:21:41.024
<v Speaker 1>You don't.

0:21:42.504 --> 0:21:52.584
<v Speaker 3>Those days, you didn't release as much emotion with each other, did.

0:21:53.824 --> 0:21:54.704
<v Speaker 8>What's the time.

0:21:55.144 --> 0:22:00.104
<v Speaker 4>Even if Lennon never explicitly addressed McCartney's olive branch, the

0:22:00.184 --> 0:22:03.864
<v Speaker 4>two did find their way back to one another.

0:22:06.544 --> 0:22:07.784
<v Speaker 8>Means so much.

0:22:10.104 --> 0:22:13.944
<v Speaker 4>Some years later, Lennon even admitted that the anger and

0:22:14.104 --> 0:22:17.624
<v Speaker 4>lyrical attacks and songs like how Do You Sleep were

0:22:17.744 --> 0:22:22.824
<v Speaker 4>directed more towards himself than towards McCartney. Eventually, they were

0:22:22.864 --> 0:22:25.984
<v Speaker 4>able to put the hurt and negative feelings behind them

0:22:26.504 --> 0:22:28.944
<v Speaker 4>and moved forward with their friendship.

0:22:29.664 --> 0:22:33.024
<v Speaker 3>It was super, super painful, and there was a lot

0:22:33.064 --> 0:22:39.384
<v Speaker 3>of navigation of emotions to be done, a lot of

0:22:39.904 --> 0:22:46.584
<v Speaker 3>hurt to be sailed around, but we did it, and

0:22:46.704 --> 0:22:48.944
<v Speaker 3>you know, in the end was something I was very

0:22:48.984 --> 0:22:50.384
<v Speaker 3>glad of when he got.

0:22:51.744 --> 0:22:54.864
<v Speaker 1>Murdered, was that I had had.

0:22:56.464 --> 0:23:01.864
<v Speaker 3>Some really good times with him before that happened. It

0:23:01.864 --> 0:23:03.664
<v Speaker 3>would have been the worst thing in the world for

0:23:03.784 --> 0:23:06.904
<v Speaker 3>someone like me. Had he'd just been killed and we

0:23:07.024 --> 0:23:10.504
<v Speaker 3>still had bad relationship, I would have just thought, oh,

0:23:10.624 --> 0:23:12.304
<v Speaker 3>I should have, I should have, I should have, I

0:23:12.344 --> 0:23:15.384
<v Speaker 3>should have. That would have been a big guilt trip

0:23:15.464 --> 0:23:19.864
<v Speaker 3>for me. Luckily, you know, we were friendly and we

0:23:20.704 --> 0:23:26.824
<v Speaker 3>talked about how to bake bread.

0:23:27.424 --> 0:23:31.984
<v Speaker 4>It seems like Paul McCartney's adoration for his childhood friend

0:23:32.584 --> 0:23:38.544
<v Speaker 4>has only deepened over time. In twenty twenty two, on

0:23:38.784 --> 0:23:44.624
<v Speaker 4>his Got Back tour, McCartney surprised his audience by bringing

0:23:44.744 --> 0:23:48.984
<v Speaker 4>Lennon back on stage. Turning away from the crowd, he

0:23:49.104 --> 0:23:52.504
<v Speaker 4>looked up at a video of his old friend projected

0:23:52.824 --> 0:23:57.864
<v Speaker 4>on a giant screen behind him, and together they sang

0:23:58.024 --> 0:24:07.264
<v Speaker 4>I've got a feeling, their contrasting voices washing over the crowd.

0:24:07.784 --> 0:24:45.784
<v Speaker 4>The two Beatles again joined in a musical conversation. In

0:24:45.864 --> 0:24:51.624
<v Speaker 4>the next episode, when I get to the bottom, I go.

0:24:51.744 --> 0:24:54.544
<v Speaker 6>Back to the top of the slot where stop.

0:24:55.424 --> 0:24:57.944
<v Speaker 11>Go right till I get to the past.

0:24:59.384 --> 0:25:04.344
<v Speaker 4>All an innocent carnival ride gave birth to heavy metal.

0:25:04.784 --> 0:25:05.864
<v Speaker 2>Do you don't you?

0:25:09.344 --> 0:25:28.264
<v Speaker 11>Hmmm, tell me.

0:25:16.944 --> 0:25:17.344
<v Speaker 3>Tell me.

0:25:30.824 --> 0:25:34.864
<v Speaker 4>McCartney. A Life in Lyrics is a co production between

0:25:34.984 --> 0:25:39.144
<v Speaker 4>iHeartMedia n p L. And Pushkin Industries.