1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Ah, summer camp for kids, it's the dream of fun 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: in the sun, no homework and no parents lurking over 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: your shoulder. How many movies have tried to capture that feeling? Ah, 4 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: your head counseler hoping to make your summer camp experience 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: the best available in this price rate or lampoon it 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: the scent of pine Wednesday. Look at all the other 7 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: children that freckles. 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: Their bright little eyes, Their eager, friendless minds. 9 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: Helped them. But for many parents, summer camp is anything 10 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: but fun. All the cost and stress of finding childcare 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: with added expectations and social anxiety tossed in. 12 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 3: January is not a time that I think anyone really 13 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 3: wants to be like forecasting ahead, trying to map out 14 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 3: the whole summer, spend money for deposits, and that's what 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 3: parents are forced to do in this particular system. 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: That's BusinessWeek contributor and summer camp parent Lydia Keysling. She 17 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: dug into the archives to trace how the idea of 18 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: summer camp and how it's been portrayed has changed over 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: the decades, and Bloomberg reporter Claire Suttith is also here 20 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: to talk about why summer camp really is just another 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: way to say childcare and has a lot of the 22 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: same problems. 23 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 2: Whenever you look at sort of the inequity in child'scare. 24 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 2: The harder you make a process, the more people are 25 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: going to fall through the cracks. 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: I'm Wesksova today on the big take, How did summer 27 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: camp become such a struggle? Lydia? A lot of us 28 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: have fine memories of going to summer camp. For parents 29 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: not such a great experience. 30 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 3: Well, I think that's certainly true for parents. 31 00:01:58,040 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: Now. 32 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 3: I knew anecdotally before where I began writing this piece 33 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 3: that parents were just mostly moms. I really need to 34 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 3: emphasize that we're freaking out about how to manage summer childcare, 35 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 3: and camps seem to become sort of more of an 36 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 3: arms race in terms of when you can register, when 37 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 3: you need to register, and yeah, it seems like people 38 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 3: are suffering. 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: So how many kids are going to summer camp in 40 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: the US now? 41 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: So the numbers that we have generally come from the 42 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 3: American Camp Association, that's an industry group that does a 43 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 3: lot of record keeping. Their estimate was roughly twenty six 44 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 3: million kids were estimated to be in camp of some 45 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 3: kind for the summer of twenty twenty two. That's based 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 3: on many different kinds of camps. So I think the 47 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 3: numbers are a bit nebulous, but it is a huge, 48 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 3: huge industry in America. 49 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: And when you think about summer camp, I think a 50 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: lot of us think of, you know, your kid goes 51 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: to summer camp for maybe four to six weeks, or 52 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: if it's a day camp, they go in the morning, 53 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: they come back in the evening. But in your reporting 54 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: you show that that's really not the case, that it's 55 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: so much more complicated for a lot of people. 56 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 3: It is a vast and gnarled network of private, public, 57 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 3: nonprofit religious entities offering many, many different kinds of camp. 58 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 3: So there's yeah, that kind of idealized like sleep away 59 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 3: canoe situation, which does still exist, but then more often 60 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 3: with parents I know and in my own life, it's 61 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 3: something that's happening for the day, and the day can 62 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 3: take so many different shapes and there are so many 63 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 3: different forms of what we things that all get lumped 64 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 3: in under that term summer camp. 65 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: And Claire Lydia said something important, which is that summer 66 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: camp has kind of really become an extension of childcare. 67 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: And that makes a really big difference when you think 68 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: of it that way. 69 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, think about it. Your typical job in 70 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: the US, you are working in the summer. You don't 71 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: get summer breaks from our jobs, unless perhaps you work 72 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: as a teacher, and even then it's like a little questionable. 73 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 2: But kids are off school. So the same needs that 74 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: you have in March for childcare, you have the same 75 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: needs in July. It's just that if your kid is 76 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 2: in school or of school age, then you have to 77 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 2: come up with a solution for that. And the hodgepodge 78 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: network of after school programs, daycares, nannies, et cetera that 79 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: parents have to navigate during the school year is exacerbated, 80 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: I think in the summer because they can still largely 81 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 2: rely on some sort of educational program that their kid 82 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 2: is in. And you take that away, and it's like, okay, 83 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 2: well what do I do instead of trying to fill 84 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: the hours from like three thirty eight to six, Now 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: I have to fill nine am to six, and summer 86 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 2: camp is maybe nine to noon or noon to three, 87 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 2: and it's only for two weeks, and then I have 88 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 2: to come up with this other one, and so it's 89 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 2: a sort of like patchwork system on top of an 90 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 2: already existing patchwork system. 91 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: And Lydia, You've done a lot reporting on just what 92 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: that patchwork system looks like. Can you describe kind of 93 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: you have a typical working parent needs to find a 94 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: place for their child to go during the day while 95 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: they're at work. What do they have to do to 96 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: fill those hours? 97 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 3: So, you know, it depends on whether you're talking about, 98 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 3: you know, the rest of the year or the summer. 99 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 3: I think parents who have kids in America, it's funny. 100 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 3: I'm plattered to be considered a reporter in this case. 101 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 3: Usually I feel like more what I'm doing is just 102 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: ranting about my own experience with childcare. I have an 103 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 3: eight year old and a five year. 104 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: Old, so you're in the thick of it when it 105 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: comes to. 106 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: This, Yes, absolutely, And you know, starting from pregnancy, basically, 107 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 3: it's just like a series of one betrayal after another. 108 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: I got through the preschool era of kind of scrambling 109 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 3: to find that care for you know, an infant or 110 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 3: a toddler. You get through that, you get to the 111 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 3: elementary school era and you think, oh my god, finally, 112 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 3: like I don't have to pay so much and scramble 113 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 3: so hard to find these spots, and then you realize, 114 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: you know, the school day lasts, My school day last 115 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 3: eight to two fifteen, So then you know, that sets 116 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 3: off another scramble, and then I remember the first summer. 117 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 3: Now that we're really into the swing of things, I'm finding, oh, well, 118 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 3: these camps are opening their registrations in January, some of them, 119 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 3: or February, and then the ones that are less expensive 120 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: are opening their registrations at the end of May. You know, 121 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 3: I'm coming at this with a lot more privilege than 122 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 3: many people who are navigating this system. I am a 123 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 3: freelance writer. I do have just sort of built in 124 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 3: more flexibility. But January is not a time that I 125 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 3: think anyone really wants to be like forecasting ahead, trying 126 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 3: to map out the whole summer, spending money for deposits, 127 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 3: and that's what parents are forced to do in this 128 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 3: particular system. 129 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: Well, I also just think, you know, if you think 130 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 2: where you are in January, right, you're coming off the 131 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: winter holidays, you've gotten through all of that. Maybe you 132 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 2: are thinking ahead to your child's next school year, if 133 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 2: you have to apply to schools or something like that. 134 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 2: That because all of those school applications are usually around 135 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: that time too. But if you're thinking about your summer, 136 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: have you already mapped out, like let's say you have 137 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: eight weeks to cover or ten weeks and you think, okay, 138 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: well we're going to take a vacation as a family 139 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 2: for this amount of time. Have you decided on those 140 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: weeks and booked those weeks so that you can book 141 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: end it with camps? Like, it's not just I have 142 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: to register for camps in January, it's I have to 143 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 2: have my whole summer planned out so that I can 144 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: cover all the bases by January, which is a lot 145 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 2: to ask. And I think whenever you look at sort 146 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: of the inequity in child'scare, the harder you make a process, 147 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: the more people are going to fall through the cracks 148 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: because people you know, maybe don't have internet access or 149 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: English as their second language, or you know, they cannot 150 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: easily afford all of those deposits. They're going to be 151 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: sort of out in the cold, essentially. 152 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: And Lydia has it always been like this. It didn't 153 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: seem like this was happening as much. I don't know, 154 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: a couple decades ago that. 155 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 3: Was kind of what I was tasked with setting out 156 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 3: on this piece is sort of like what went wrong, 157 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 3: what's happening? And one thing that I found really interesting 158 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 3: is that a version of this has existed for a 159 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 3: really long time, I think, especially among a sort of 160 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 3: like more elite, like affluent group of parents. And the 161 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 3: place I went in to sort of track this was 162 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 3: the New York Times Archive, because it's a very rich 163 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: archive and I think it's a great sort of barometer 164 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 3: for like both the aspirations and anxieties for readers of 165 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 3: The Times over the years. It starts out kind of 166 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 3: talking about mostly the camps that were set up for 167 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 3: children in New York City who lived by the settlement houses. 168 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 3: So children in sort of like inner city didn't get 169 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 3: a lot of outside time. We're sort of seen as 170 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: like a problem to solve by welfare agencies, and so 171 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: camps were set up and the children, sometimes their mothers 172 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 3: would accompany them, would go out and have a couple 173 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 3: of weeks on a farm, and sometimes there was even 174 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 3: like a little bit of a work component. So those 175 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: were sort of the first iterations. Then in nineteen forty five, 176 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 3: the Times had an article that explicitly talked about camp 177 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 3: as a form of childcare, and it was for the 178 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 3: World War II workers. That was the time when women 179 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 3: had always been in the workforce, but the number stored 180 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 3: during World War Two as women sort of stepped in 181 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: for the war effort. That, you know, it's no coincidence. 182 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 3: Was also the only time that the United States has 183 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 3: had any form of a sort of universal childcare through 184 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 3: the Lanham Act, which was put in place for the 185 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 3: war effort. And then of course once the war ended, 186 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 3: just scuttled and there's a lot of reporting about what 187 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 3: I mean, a real tragedy that was for families, in 188 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 3: particular for working moms in America. I was really surprised 189 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 3: to see that. You know, starting in nineteen fifty three, 190 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 3: there was basically this annual winter article that got written. 191 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 3: Maybe a few years got skipped here and there, but 192 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 3: it's like, it's winter, what are you going to do 193 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 3: for camp? And those articles generally were talking about the 194 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 3: kind of more traditional like sleepaway camp idea, but over 195 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: time you could see them begin to track the evolution 196 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 3: of the idea of camp and so then the article 197 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 3: started to say things like, now there's this bewildering number 198 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 3: of opportunities and types of camps. You can do sports camp, 199 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 3: you can do computer camp, you can do fine arts camp. 200 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 3: So having this idea of this kind of like multitude 201 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 3: of options really started showing up in like the i'd 202 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 3: say the sixties and seventies and just sort of soared 203 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 3: from there. Childcare was always left out of those articles 204 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 3: until you get into the eighties, and then every once 205 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 3: in a while it's like, oh, no, camp is childcare. 206 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 3: Parents are working, Mothers are working. You know, there isn't 207 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: someone just at home to like watch a child all 208 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 3: day and open the screen door for them. And that's 209 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 3: when it finally starts to get a little bit of traction. 210 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 3: I'd say not enough, but yeah, it's the last kind 211 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 3: of thirty years, especially that more and more parents are working, 212 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 3: mothers are speaking up and saying no, like this is 213 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: a necessary part of our work life and something that 214 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 3: every family kind of deserves access to. 215 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: After the break, why signing up for camp got so complicated? Claire, 216 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: I guess what we hear in that transition is this 217 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: switch almost from how do I give my child this 218 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: great summertime experience to how do I give my child 219 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: a great experience but also keep that kid occupied because 220 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: I need to go to work. 221 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the story of summer camp 222 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: and childcare specifically, I think is a story of one 223 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 2: sort of like systemic failure on the part of America 224 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: to create an infrastructure that supports these various seismic demographic 225 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: changes in the labor force. By that, I mean, like 226 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 2: women entering the labor force in just huge numbers permanently. 227 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: We've still never addressed that we don't have a childcare 228 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 2: system in America. Those decades, as women have entered at 229 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 2: the labor force, the price of childcare has risen just 230 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: like exponentially faster than inflation, to the point where now 231 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 2: currently to put a baby in daycare costs more in 232 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: most places in the country than in state college tuition. 233 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: You pay more for daycare for a baby than you 234 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 2: do for college for your kid. So there's that. But 235 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: also when you get to summer camp, there's even less 236 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 2: of a structure, So all of these problems are compounded. 237 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: And then on top of that, you know you have 238 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: parental anxiety of I want my kid to have a 239 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: summer and this is your chance for freedom, and you're 240 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 2: not beholden to a schedule. 241 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 3: The way that you are during. 242 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: The school year, but I am as the parent, so 243 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 2: in some ways you are too, and therefore I have 244 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: to figure out how to send you to all of 245 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: this stuff. And also because camp sort of skews more 246 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 2: demographically affluent, because only the affluent families are the ones 247 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 2: who are able to pay for space, camp and all 248 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 2: this sort of stuff, then you have all this added 249 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: pressure as your kid gets older. Is this enriching? Is 250 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: this going to help them get into college? Do I 251 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 2: need to send my daughter to coding camp even if 252 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: she has no interest in coding? 253 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 3: So when I got assign this piece, because I am 254 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 3: a working mother, freelancer, I have to multitask, which meant 255 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 3: the first people I talked to were the directors of 256 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 3: my child's preschool, which is also has a day camp 257 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 3: in the summer, which I have availed myself of because 258 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: it is cheaper than any other option, it is more consistent, 259 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 3: it follows the working hours, and it's just a great camp. 260 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 3: So I asked them, you know, what are the things 261 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: you've noticed over time? And I was really astounded by 262 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 3: how sort of instantly they helped fill in this picture 263 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 3: for me, because they said, you know this preschool they've 264 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 3: been running, has existed for fifty years. They've done the 265 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 3: camp part of it since nineteen ninety nine, and they 266 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 3: noticed for the first years of the camp it was 267 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 3: just something they knew was going to be summer childcare. 268 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 3: They started it the week after the Portland Public schools closed, 269 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 3: and they ended it the week before they opened in 270 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 3: the fall. It was the full work day and you know, 271 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 3: kids would come do arts and crafts. They would take 272 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 3: them to a park in a bus and that was it, 273 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 3: and you signed up for the whole session. And then 274 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 3: pretty swiftly they started hearing from parents that there were 275 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: all these other options popping up. And they both remember 276 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 3: a camp I believe it's called Girls Who Rock and 277 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 3: that was founded in two thousand and one as being 278 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 3: this kind of turning point where suddenly they were hearing 279 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 3: about bike camp, taekwondo camp, these different offerings, and so 280 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 3: parents were kind of agitating, saying, you know, I love 281 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 3: your camp, but I want an opportunity to sign up 282 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 3: for these kind of individual things, and you know, for 283 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 3: a while they sort of held fast, but then I 284 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 3: think in twenty fifteen they had noticed their numbers were 285 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 3: declining and so then they broke it up and so 286 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 3: now you register by the week. I spoke with another 287 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 3: camp director who reported something similar, although that also kind 288 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 3: of creates problems for camp directors as well, because she 289 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 3: says she also offers weekly sign ups, and she's finding 290 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 3: that parents are signing up for a bunch of weeks 291 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 3: in January and then in March they're canceling. So she's 292 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 3: actually had to change the amount of refund available because 293 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 3: it was so clear that people were trying to like 294 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 3: piece together the summer, and they would start out just 295 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 3: throwing everything at the wall and then start like peeling 296 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 3: away some of the weeks. And she said, you know, 297 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 3: I understand why they want to do that, but I 298 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 3: can't run a camp with that much sort of built 299 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 3: in instability. A lot of my conversations, both just as 300 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 3: a parent and then reporting this piece and spending time 301 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 3: in you know, these Facebook groups that are mostly populated 302 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 3: by moms and where a lot of information is shared, 303 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 3: the word spreadsheet came up so much more often than 304 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 3: I would have imagined, and many parents are starting these 305 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 3: spreadsheets and needing them basically to keep track of what 306 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 3: the summer is going to look like, and so you know, 307 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 3: one mom I spoke with pulled up a spreadsheet during 308 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 3: our phone call and counted and there were seven different 309 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 3: camps covering nine different weeks. They all were in a 310 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 3: different location, ran during a different time, So her calendar 311 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: for the summer became this kind of like frank science 312 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 3: monster that she was having to navigate. And you know, 313 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,359 Speaker 3: she would be the first to admit, like, I hate this, 314 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 3: this is not functional. But I think the system we 315 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 3: have it's sort of there's both like an abundance of 316 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 3: options but a sort of scarcity mindset that I think 317 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 3: is rooted in the knowledge parents have that there is 318 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 3: a fundamental scarcity of good childcare options in America. So 319 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 3: it's like this profusion of things you can choose from, 320 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 3: but also knowing there's limited spots. I've got to get one. 321 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 3: And people are bringing administrative skills to sort of just 322 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 3: running the summer for their kids that are rival you know, 323 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: any kind of like office administration setting. It's really wild. 324 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: Claire is part of the problem that we're calling it 325 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: and thinking about it as summer camp instead of what 326 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: it really is, which is childcare. 327 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you can call it camp. I mean 328 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: maybe for kids it's more fun if you call it camp. 329 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: But I think employers expectations of their working parents being 330 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 2: able to be working the same way in the summer 331 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 2: as they are. And also, certainly if you are at 332 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: like the state or federal level and you're trying to 333 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: discuss childscare, this needs to be part of the conversation. 334 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 2: One of the few positive sides of the pandemic is 335 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 2: it did require this sort of like fundamental rethinking of like, oh, 336 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 2: child's care really is important. And while we've ignored it 337 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 2: as just a mom's problem for decades, it turns out 338 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: that this is a problem for everyone. You know, it's 339 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: a problem for working fathers, it's a problem for employers 340 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: who employ working mothers and working fathers. It's a problem 341 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 2: for kids. 342 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 3: I love that point, and I would add that I 343 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: think there's been a long tradition, a rhetorical tradition in 344 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 3: America of explicitly trying to remove daycare as this sort 345 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 3: of other thing. And you can see this in the 346 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 3: New York Times Arch one of the nineteen eighties article 347 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 3: headlines is day camp is not daycare, And that's supposed 348 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 3: to be an advertisement for day camp. Because there is 349 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 3: this sort of idea that denigrates daycare the same way 350 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 3: that people would say during especially at the start of 351 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 3: the pandemic, Well, schools aren't babysitters, And first of all, 352 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 3: yes they are. In some very important respects they are. 353 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: And also I think what that does is it's a 354 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 3: way of putting down care work which is almost exclusively 355 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 3: performed by women, or has been and disproportionately performed by 356 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 3: women of color. Care workers remain incredibly underpaid. 357 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: Lydia. You talk about how people who provide childcare often 358 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: aren't given the respect they deserve, and you encounter that 359 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: when you were talking to people who run camps about 360 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: how difficult it is to find and retain people and 361 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: pay them. 362 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 3: Yes. So one of the reasons that this conversation is 363 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 3: so kind of complex is because the numbers we have 364 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 3: for childcare, the childcare situation in America. Camp is part 365 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 3: of that, but the numbers aren't You can't really parse them. 366 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: So when you talk about childcare, you know, they're twelve 367 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 3: point three million children have working parents, it's the recent 368 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 3: figure that I read, But they're only eight point seven 369 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 3: million licensed childcare providers. We already have a just huge 370 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 3: dearth of affordable childcare options for American children and parents. So, 371 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 3: you know, Claire mentioned that infant daycare costs the same 372 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 3: as in state tuition for college, but childcare workers are 373 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 3: not earning a salary that is commensurate with that high number, 374 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 3: and so there's incredible turnover. They're just a lot of 375 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 3: places where childcare workers can earn more money. Facilities cost 376 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 3: is a huge problem. So all of those things that 377 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 3: childcare providers are experiencing sort of also apply to camp. 378 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 3: But there's an added component of the fact that the 379 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 3: work is seasonal. So you know, if a camp is 380 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 3: only running for ten weeks, they're hiring people, they're not 381 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 3: able to pay them a ton, generally speaking, and they're 382 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 3: usually not promising them work that's going to last year round. 383 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 3: So that just kind of compounds the fundamental labor issue 384 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 3: that exists on sort of across the care spectrum. 385 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 2: I also think, you know, one of the things that 386 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 2: makes childcare so expensive is when you're talking about daycare, 387 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 2: you're talking about babies and you know, kids preschool age 388 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: and younger, and so maybe they're not matching with the 389 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: camp cohort, but you know, you have to make sure 390 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 2: that they have background checks, they've done CPR training. There's 391 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: usually this like childish staff ratio component where you have 392 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 2: to have, you know, one caregiver for every three or 393 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: four babies and maybe five or six older kids or 394 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 2: something like that, and summer camps have some of those 395 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 2: same requirements. Probably a CPR, definitely a background check. The staffing, 396 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 2: because they're not watching infants is probably not as bad. 397 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 2: But you know, when I think back on my summer 398 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 2: camp memories, I was elementary school age, but I was 399 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: like wandering around in a day camp playing kickball, overseen 400 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 2: by a bunch of teenagers who probably had not learned CPR. 401 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 2: And that's probably not possible at a camp run today 402 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: under today's regulations. I was sort of the lax nineteen 403 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 2: eighties crew, and a lot of that is good and necessary, 404 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: but that just makes it even harder. 405 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: We'll talk about possible solutions to this camp and childcare 406 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: conundrum when we come back. Claire, you wrote a story 407 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: that called childcare the most broken business in America, and 408 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: you said that it's a rare example of an almost 409 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: entirely private market in which the service offered is too 410 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: expensive for both consumers and the businesses. That provide it, 411 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: and that seems to describe what we're talking about summer 412 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: camps too. 413 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so summer camps are part of this, 414 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 2: but when you think about just childcare in America, it's 415 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 2: so expensive because in order to post a good summer 416 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 2: camp or provide good childcare, we have all of these 417 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 2: regulations and stuff that we want to have to keep 418 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 2: kids safe. You know, we are very concerned about children's 419 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 2: well being, as we should be, but the cost of 420 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: that is so high that unless the government subsidizes it, 421 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: parents can't really afford it, and the government periodically tries 422 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: to fix it. I don't know if you guys remember 423 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 2: the whole like build back better debate that was happening, 424 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: but in the early versions of all of that childcare 425 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: was included. And it was this bold move on the 426 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 2: part of Congress and President Biden to be like, look, 427 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 2: we understand parents' problems, we understand the childcare industry's predicament, 428 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 2: and we are going to allot a sizable chunk of 429 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 2: money to, you know, not fix the problem, but really 430 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 2: try to make it better. What they were going to 431 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,479 Speaker 2: do was a lot a bunch of money for states 432 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 2: to sort of opt in and create their own programs 433 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: within their states to fix it. And so I think 434 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 2: you would have had a tiered system where sort of 435 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 2: like Medicaid expansion, but it ultimately failed, and in large 436 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 2: part that was because of Senator Joe Manchin, who was saying, 437 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 2: you know, we can't spend so much money on this. 438 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 2: We cannot afford to spend what I think the congressional 439 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 2: budget obvious is going to save us about twenty two 440 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 2: billion dollars a year, which sounds like a huge amount 441 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: of money, except that that's only two percent of the 442 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: military budget. So what they're saying is we cannot take 443 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 2: two percent of the military budget to create something that 444 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: American families need and will really improve the economy, make 445 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: childcare workers lives better, allow these businesses to thrive, and 446 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 2: also allow parents to work more. And that did not 447 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: even include summer camp. So as far behind as we 448 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 2: are on the childcare issue, we are even further behind, 449 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 2: I think, on summer camp. 450 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: So what is the solution here? What can be done 451 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: to help parents who are really struggling when it's not 452 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: summer to provide healthcare and then even more so during 453 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: the summer when all the usual support systems go away. 454 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 3: It's basically like triage mode. And the places and institutions 455 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 3: that are working on this are really thinking about the many, 456 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 3: many kids who have you know, been sort of left 457 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 3: out of this conversation because they are not accessing camp 458 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 3: at all. There are lots of entities that are kind 459 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 3: of thinking about how to reach those families and kids. 460 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 3: And I spoke with one camp director in San Francisco. 461 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 3: It's a San Francisco based California nonprofit called EDMO, and 462 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 3: at Caballero I had a great conversation with him where 463 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 3: he described they used to run camps that were just 464 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 3: sort of open to the public and anyone who could 465 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 3: pay the four or five hundred dollars a week would 466 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 3: sign up. They had the same kind of like registration 467 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 3: hunger games every year, and what he told me is 468 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 3: that equity was very important to them, and so they 469 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 3: you know, would advertise like their scholarships and really try 470 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 3: and get a lot of kids whose families normally wouldn't 471 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 3: be able to pay. But the process they use, which 472 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 3: is like the general registration process that most places use, 473 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: was leaving those kids out because there was an onerous 474 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 3: sort of application process for the scholarships, and so they 475 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 3: decided upon reflection to scrap that. So then when the 476 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 3: state of California made an ongoing almost five billion dollar 477 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 3: investment in I believe it's called Expanded Learning Opportunities Program, 478 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 3: which is meant to basically like guarantee after school and 479 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 3: summer programming for California public school kids, Edmo Cabalero said, well, okay, 480 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 3: we'll partner with the state. We are going to not 481 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 3: do these public camps anymore. We're just going to work 482 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 3: on site at the public schools and run our programs there. 483 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 3: So that's one way, you know, that one organization pivoted 484 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 3: and said, let's tie this to school rather than to 485 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 3: just this like free for all. So there are a 486 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 3: lot of programs that are doing something similar and trying 487 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 3: to like reach groups that are normally left out. But 488 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 3: you know, the overall problem remains of just like wildly 489 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 3: disparate opportunities, wildly disparate costs. It's just a really lumpy system. 490 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 3: And the major thing I can think of is just 491 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 3: sort of like shifting our idea of summer camp from 492 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 3: an extra to just a rite and sort of thinking 493 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 3: about everything having to do with childcare from an extra 494 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 3: or like an individual problem to solve to a write 495 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 3: and something that all American parents and kids sort of 496 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 3: deserve access to. That's like the fundamental shift that needs 497 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 3: to happen. 498 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: Lydia Claire, thanks so much for coming on the show. 499 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 2: Thanks have a great summer. 500 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: Thank you you too. Thanks for listening to us here 501 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: at The Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg 502 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 503 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And we'd love to 504 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: hear from you. Email us questions or comments to Big 505 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: Take at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of The 506 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: Big Take is Vicky berg Alina. Our senior producer is 507 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: Catherine Fink. Our producers are Michael fal and mow Barrow. 508 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: Raphael I'm Seely is our engineer. Our original music was 509 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: composed by Leo Sidron I'm west Kasova. We'll be back 510 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: tomorrow with another Big Take.