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Speaker 1: Welcome to two percent. I'm your host, Michael Easter. Last night,

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Speaker 1: me and one of my good friends, Ryan Swave, we

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Speaker 1: went and saw the band Fish at the Las Vegas Sphere.

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Speaker 1: So I want you to picture two sober guys in

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Speaker 1: a sea of hippies who are all smoking weed, all

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Speaker 1: probably on psychedelics, and there we are having an amazing

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Speaker 1: time despite the fact that we weren't on any substances. Now,

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Speaker 1: Ryan's background is he's one of the top therapists in

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Speaker 1: the country. He started in addiction medicine after he himself

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Speaker 1: got sober, but he has sense pivoted to working with

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Speaker 1: high performers in all different areas, helping them get their

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Speaker 1: mind rights, helping them get that our habits on track

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Speaker 1: in order to live a better life, have better relationships,

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Speaker 1: make more money, just be better people in general. So

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Speaker 1: this morning, after the show, running on three hours of

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Speaker 1: sleep each, I dragged Ryan into the studio, I sat

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Speaker 1: him down, and I stole as much of his wisdom

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Speaker 1: as I could for all of you. So we had

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Speaker 1: a long, sweeping conversation. We talked about habit change. We

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Speaker 1: talked about the real underlying reasons people do things that

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Speaker 1: seem to be counterproductive and hurt them in the long run.

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Speaker 1: We talked about how to improve your life, how to

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Speaker 1: improve your mindset, and a lot of different things that

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Speaker 1: will help you the listener and leave you with tools

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Speaker 1: to act better in the real world. Right now, so

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Speaker 1: let's bring on Ryan. Ryan, thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 2: Man, Thanks for having me. This is great, all right.

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Speaker 1: We went to fish last night at the Sphere. How

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Speaker 1: did it feel to be one of the only sober

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Speaker 1: human beings in the building in addition to me and

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Speaker 1: maybe three to four others, I think.

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Speaker 3: There might have been some more than that, but it

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Speaker 3: was definitely ah well, I think first off, it was

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Speaker 3: started at eight o'clock. I think both of us agreed

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Speaker 3: that we probably would have been close to in bed

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Speaker 3: by then.

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Speaker 4: I went to bed.

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Speaker 1: At seven thirty the night before, if that gives you

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Speaker 1: any context.

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Speaker 3: Right, and I flew from the East coast, so it

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Speaker 3: was like eleven pm start time, you know.

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Speaker 2: And but I think the uh it was it was great.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a it's a really cool psychedelic experience

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Speaker 3: without the psychedelics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say we were surrounded in a fog

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Speaker 1: of actual burned marijuana smoke, and vaped marijuana smoke. The

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Speaker 1: people in front of us were clinging to their vapens

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Speaker 1: like their you know, climbing everest and this is their

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Speaker 1: oxygen line.

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Speaker 4: It was just like it was funny.

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Speaker 3: So there's a lot of gummy bears being eaten. I

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Speaker 3: don't think they're the same ones that my kids eat.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw, but at some point

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Speaker 1: in the second set, the lady next to me actually

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Speaker 1: like passed out for five minutes. Yeah, her beer can

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Speaker 1: kind of spills on my foot a little bit.

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Speaker 4: I was saying, you're okay, you'll wake up eventually. It's

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Speaker 4: a good time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was awesome. It was what an experience.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was right. So I got a question for you.

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Speaker 4: How long have you been sober?

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Speaker 2: A little eighteen years.

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Speaker 1: When you got sober, and in your process of sobriety,

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Speaker 1: have you had to relearn how to have fun.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question, I think. I mean, the very

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Speaker 3: short answer to that is yes. But also, as I

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Speaker 3: look at the last few years of my drinking, it

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Speaker 3: wasn't fun. Yeah, I wasn't having fun.

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Speaker 4: It starts fun.

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Speaker 2: It started fun.

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Speaker 3: It started and I think for a lot of people

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Speaker 3: it enhances their life.

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Speaker 2: We were talking about this yesterday.

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Speaker 3: You know, for most people it means conviviality and like

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Speaker 3: making things, you know, reducing inhibitions. But you know, for

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Speaker 3: me and people like me, and I'm like people like you,

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Speaker 3: I'll you say that, you people, it was you know,

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Speaker 3: it like crosses that line, and it wasn't you know.

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Speaker 3: You know, I used to think I was like I

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Speaker 3: needed to drink, and I was like Bukowski or Hemingway,

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Speaker 3: you know, or Fitzgerald and like this creative process. But

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Speaker 3: the thing was I didn't write, so I was just

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Speaker 3: doing the drinking part. And then I forgot that most

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Speaker 3: of those guys died either alcoholic deaths or killed themselves.

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Speaker 1: Right, So yeah, I had the same thing as a writer,

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Speaker 1: going like because I was I was still drinking when

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Speaker 1: I was working in magazines and writing professionally. I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: Hunter s Thompson, look at all you know, he drank,

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Speaker 1: he did drugs. Hemingway drank And then yeah, you go, well,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, didn't they both shoot themselves. It's not

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Speaker 1: how we want this to end. I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 1: I should rethink that.

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Speaker 3: One, yeah, but you know, I think probably I had

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Speaker 3: to learn how to have fun in general, you know,

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Speaker 3: And you know it was you know, I had a

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Speaker 3: mentor when I was you know, I was thirty two

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Speaker 3: when I got sober, and I had a mentor who

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Speaker 3: had been sober a long long time, and he used

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Speaker 3: to say to me, you know, the only difference between

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Speaker 3: me and you is I've been through more life experiences

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Speaker 3: without picking up a drink. And so, you know, it

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Speaker 3: was it was relearning a lot of things because you know,

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Speaker 3: so many, so many functions and dinners and weddings and

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Speaker 3: all this stuff have to do with drinking. And what

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Speaker 3: I also realized is most people didn't drink like I

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Speaker 3: thought they did, you know, especially as I was a

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Speaker 3: little bit older, like in my twenties.

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Speaker 2: Of course you're in college or teens and they do.

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Speaker 3: And I think you kind of touched on that yesterday

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Speaker 3: about talking about, you know, everybody ordering a drink and

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Speaker 3: wondering if you know the first time for yourself.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I'll tell the story.

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Speaker 1: So I was maybe three weeks into sobriety and I'm

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Speaker 1: out of work trip. Long story short, I'm with all

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Speaker 1: these other journalists. We're out at this nice dinner and

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Speaker 1: there's probably fifteen people at the table. The waiter starts

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Speaker 1: asking for drink orders, and I'm going to be the

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Speaker 1: last person to give the order, and everyone I'll have

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Speaker 1: a martini, I'll have this beer, I'll have this wine.

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Speaker 1: And the whole time he's taken it, I'm going, Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, what are people gonna do? When I order water?

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Speaker 1: Everyone's gonna look at me and they're gonna say, why

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Speaker 1: aren't you drinking? And then I'm gonna have to explain

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Speaker 1: myself and then and so I'm like building the narrative

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Speaker 1: in my head, like, Okay, this is the story you're

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Speaker 1: gonna tell, blah blah blah blah blah. And then the

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Speaker 1: waiter gets many goes what do you have to drink?

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Speaker 1: And I say I'll just have a water, and nothing happened.

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Speaker 1: No one looked up from their menu. And it was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe I care more about alcohol than the average person.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, what was worse that, you know, thinking that

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Speaker 3: everybody was gonna worry about you and concerned about you.

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Speaker 2: Or when you ordered it that nobody really cared.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, also the self obsession of thinking that like people

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Speaker 1: are really just like they're just waiting to see what

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Speaker 1: I ordered. This beal right, and then they're going to

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Speaker 1: wonder what am I getting for dinner because that's really

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Speaker 1: important to them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I when I had been I think

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Speaker 3: had been sober for about four years, and I got

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Speaker 3: invited to a wedding and I'd been to some stuff before,

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Speaker 3: but this was a wedding from somebody from high school

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Speaker 3: and it was out in the mountains out west, and

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Speaker 3: I was going and I knew a couple of the

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Speaker 3: people going there. This wasn't a big crew of friends

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Speaker 3: that I had, and the other people that I knew

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Speaker 3: were in the wedding and I wasn't, And so I

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Speaker 3: went out by myself. And even though I'd been sober

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Speaker 3: for a while, I'd kind of been in a community

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Speaker 3: and around people that were not drinking. And you know,

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Speaker 3: sobriety is a lot more than about not drinking. That's

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Speaker 3: maybe what it starts with. It's, you know, building a life,

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Speaker 3: at least for me, it's building a life where that

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Speaker 3: stuff doesn't have a place. And then, you know, it

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Speaker 3: was just saying I gave up everything for one thing,

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Speaker 3: and all I had to do was give up one

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Speaker 3: thing for everything, you know, the not drinking parts kind

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Speaker 3: of a gateway to something else. But you know, I

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Speaker 3: was thirty five years old at this point, and you know,

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Speaker 3: it was pretty you know, I was going to a

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Speaker 3: wedding with people that i'd been around be I and

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Speaker 3: that I knew from my history, and then a bunch

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Speaker 3: of people that I didn't know. And I got there

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Speaker 3: and I just made this decision. I was like, I'm

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Speaker 3: just gonna like go for it. And what that meant

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Speaker 3: to me was I'm going to be social. I'm going

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Speaker 3: to connect with other people even though I don't know them.

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Speaker 3: I like went down to the lobby and these other

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Speaker 3: people were before the wedding, were going whitewater rafting.

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Speaker 2: I was like, can I come.

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Speaker 3: I never would have done like gone up to strangers,

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Speaker 3: and I went and I had a great time. And

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Speaker 3: then I I didn't tell anybody, you know, the people

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Speaker 3: invited me to I was sober, but I didn't really

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Speaker 3: tell anybody that. But I obviously wasn't drinking. So I

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Speaker 3: had this whole dialogue like you did, what am I

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Speaker 3: going to say? And a lot of times it was

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Speaker 3: just like I've had enough, And you know, I drank

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Speaker 3: a bunch of you know, like Seltzer Waters or you know,

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Speaker 3: Club Soda Lime or something like that. And I just

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Speaker 3: had fun. I'm not like a dancer or anything, but

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Speaker 3: I danced at the wedding, was like super late at night.

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Speaker 3: We had we had. I had a blast. And about

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Speaker 3: eight months later, and I remember where I was in

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Speaker 3: a hotel room in Denver and I opened my phone

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Speaker 3: and I think it was like a Facebook message, you know,

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Speaker 3: as many years ago, and it was like a Facebook message,

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Speaker 3: and this guy who'd been at the wedding had found

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Speaker 3: found me and messaged me. And we'd met there, but

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Speaker 3: I'd never like, I didn't keep up with him. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And he said to me, you know, I just want

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Speaker 3: to let you know. After that wedding, I stopped drinking.

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Speaker 3: And I've been sober for eight months. And the only

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Speaker 3: reason I was able to do it because I was

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Speaker 3: able to I noticed you weren't drinking, and I could

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Speaker 3: see that you had a great time and could actually

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Speaker 3: live your life.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, that's cool.

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Speaker 3: And like I didn't go there to do that, you know,

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Speaker 3: it was just attractive to him in some way. I

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Speaker 3: had no idea that and I'm like totally absorbed in myself,

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Speaker 3: like you were talking not to diagnose you, but I.

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Speaker 4: Don't diagnosis the spot on.

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Speaker 3: But you know, it's self absorbed and worried about me.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, holy, you know, like I just

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Speaker 3: help somebody.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I had no idea as you're trying.

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Speaker 3: It was just like and and and I've had so

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Speaker 3: many experiences like that over the years. And you know,

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Speaker 3: now I have a lot of friends. You know, I

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Speaker 3: was telling you yesterday, a lot of our friends are sober.

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Speaker 3: We didn't pick it that way. They're just the kind

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Speaker 3: of ones who were around and we have like we

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Speaker 3: have awesome times. You know, what I've learned about myself

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Speaker 3: is I don't need something to lower my inhibitions.

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Speaker 2: I can get in enough trouble.

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Speaker 3: And you know, like I only opened my mouth to

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Speaker 3: switch feet usually, and uh, I can do that without drinking.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there you go. I like it.

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Speaker 1: Man, So walk us up to your sobriety. What happened

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Speaker 1: that led you to get sober?

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Speaker 3: Drink too much?

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Speaker 4: Next question?

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Speaker 3: Now, you know I as a kid growing up, you know,

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Speaker 3: I I didn't ever like I was. I was involved

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Speaker 3: in a lot of stuff. I had a lot of friends.

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Speaker 3: I was voted most likely to succeed. I was president

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Speaker 3: of the student body. I was not voted most likely

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Speaker 3: to have to go to rehab and then get sober.

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Speaker 3: But that's the way it worked out, and I'm grateful.

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Speaker 3: I'm really grateful for that. But you know, I even

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Speaker 3: though like I was involved in a lot of things

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Speaker 3: and like on the outside, even in school it looked

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Speaker 3: like I could, you know, voted most likely to succeed,

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Speaker 3: It looked successful. Like I I always felt different.

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Speaker 2: And nobody was like telling me that.

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Speaker 3: I just I did.

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Speaker 4: I felt like you couldn't connect with people.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I even thought of it like that,

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Speaker 3: but I but potentially I just kind of felt like

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Speaker 3: everybody else kind of had something going on or were

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Speaker 3: connected in a way that that I wasn't. I can't

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Speaker 3: get there even if I was on the inside, I

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Speaker 3: felt like I was on I remember, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: we're going to go into this, but when I was

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Speaker 3: in treatment, I had a lot of like loneliness. And

250
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Speaker 3: I remember the therapist that I had said, you know,

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Speaker 3: write a letter about when you remember you were most

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Speaker 3: like first time you felt lonely, and and I wrote

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Speaker 3: something about this time we had moved. I was probably

254
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Speaker 3: sixth grade. We'd moved from one neighborhood to another, and

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Speaker 3: it was like kind of across town. And that neighborhood

256
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Speaker 3: i'd been in was like all these kids that was

257
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Speaker 3: it was full of kids, and this one wasn't. And

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Speaker 3: I remember that I just no one was like calling

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Speaker 3: me to go play with them or you know, anything

260
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Speaker 3: like that, and of course I thought it was not,

261
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Speaker 3: of course, but I thought it was, you know, they

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Speaker 3: didn't want me. And I don't remember all the details,

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Speaker 3: but I actually reached out to my mom and I

264
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Speaker 3: said to her, you know, do you remember me ever

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Speaker 3: feeling lonely?

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Speaker 2: And she described that exact moment or time.

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Speaker 3: But then she said to me, you know, and I

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Speaker 3: don't know if she'd ever told me this, but she's like,

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Speaker 3: you know, I reached out to some of their moms

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Speaker 3: to see if you know, anything was going on, basically,

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Speaker 3: and she said they came back and were like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: they're just waiting for Ryan to call. Like, yeah, i'd

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Speaker 3: kind of been in the middle and maybe seen as

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Speaker 3: a leader in that, but I never I never felt

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Speaker 3: like that. And so I finished college and I went

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Speaker 3: and worked in a family business from my dad, and

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Speaker 3: then I started my own business, and I moved away

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Speaker 3: to a different part of Florida, and I was I

279
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Speaker 3: was in a new town, and I was in a

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Speaker 3: relationship and that relationship ended, and I was oriented in

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Speaker 3: this way for some reason that I didn't know how

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Speaker 3: to deal with really difficult emotions or failure and if

283
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Speaker 3: like a relationship would end, it would just crush me

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Speaker 3: and I would, you know. And I've worked with men,

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Speaker 3: young men over the years where you know, they're eighteen,

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Speaker 3: nineteen years old, and you know, they're like devastated by

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Speaker 3: a relationship that that ended, and like they're falling apart,

288
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Speaker 3: and I'll be like, how long are you together?

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Speaker 2: That'll be three months? Yeah, And that's the reaction.

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Speaker 3: But in the moment, but when you peel it back,

291
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Speaker 3: it's not that that relationship ended that it's that they

292
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Speaker 3: were projecting out that you know, this is who I'm

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Speaker 3: going to be with forever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, they're grieving like the rest of their life.

295
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Speaker 4: Right. They had a big story behind it.

296
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Speaker 3: Right, And I realized I did that with a lot

297
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,640
Speaker 3: of things. And you know, I also was not really

298
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Speaker 3: doing something that I wanted to do for my career.

299
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Speaker 3: And I'd had this orientation that you know, I always

300
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,400
Speaker 3: wanted to kind of be like a teacher or something

301
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 3: where I could help people. And but I gotten this thing,

302
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Speaker 3: once I make enough money, then I'll do that. Like

303
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 3: I need to make a few million dollars and then

304
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Speaker 3: I can have a beat up pickup truck and live

305
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Speaker 3: in a small house.

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Speaker 2: Well like it didn't even and and be a teacher.

307
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Speaker 3: Not that you have to live in a small house

308
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,680
Speaker 3: and be a pickup truck to be a teacher, but

309
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,880
Speaker 3: that was kind of like this I needed some sort

310
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Speaker 3: of like safety net. What I've learned for me and

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Speaker 3: a lot of people I work with is like that

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Speaker 3: orientation of once I make enough, you know, once I've

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Speaker 3: got that, there's no dollar to stop on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just the goalpost moves. Yeah, once you get

315
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Speaker 1: to whatever it is, two million, you're like maybe four.

316
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Speaker 1: You get to four, you go twelve, twelve.

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Speaker 3: It's number, the number, and it was it just it

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Speaker 3: keeps going like that, you know, And and you know,

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Speaker 3: fortunately the universe had a different direction for me. You know,

320
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Speaker 3: I was in the in that I was building houses

321
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Speaker 3: and doing real estate stuff, and it was two thousand

322
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Speaker 3: and eight and everything started falling apart before that. And

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Speaker 3: you know, for me, it wasn't like one day, you know,

324
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Speaker 3: something happened and everything crashed for me financially. But it

325
00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,840
Speaker 3: started over a period of time. And I use that

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Speaker 3: as a great, great kind of excuse to kind of

327
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Speaker 3: all back. And I was drinking alone and you know,

328
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Speaker 3: didn't want to I found myself being suicidal. And what

329
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:09,880
Speaker 3: I what I learned about that for me, it was

330
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Speaker 3: it wasn't that I didn't I didn't want to die.

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Speaker 2: I just didn't want to live in this way that

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Speaker 2: I was living.

333
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Speaker 3: And I didn't see another way out, which was crazy

334
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,680
Speaker 3: because I was not a stupid person and I had resources,

335
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,280
Speaker 3: but I just I never talked to anybody about it.

336
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 3: I kept it all inside, you know, and not that

337
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,720
Speaker 3: other people probably didn't see it. But you know, it's

338
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 3: also like you know, you know, in your at least

339
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:35,520
Speaker 3: for me, and I think a lot of people in

340
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,480
Speaker 3: their teens twenties, you know, your people are partying and

341
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,800
Speaker 3: the like, they start to grow up and move out

342
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,120
Speaker 3: of it. And I wasn't doing that. But it wasn't

343
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,000
Speaker 3: like I was living this big party. It was like, oh,

344
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,400
Speaker 3: I'd go to the party or like a wedding and

345
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,640
Speaker 3: then everybody would go back to work on Monday, and

346
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 3: I would just keep going.

347
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Speaker 4: Keep going. Yeah, party didn't stop for you.

348
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it wasn't a party. This was like alone.

349
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:02,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, party of one.

350
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,439
Speaker 3: Party one party of one. You know. Of course I

351
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 3: would you know, try to you know. I would sometimes

352
00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,000
Speaker 3: go out to bars and stuff like that cause I

353
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,000
Speaker 3: need it. I was like, I wanted connection with others,

354
00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:18,119
Speaker 3: but I just you know, and and so fortunately, you know,

355
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 3: I had a business partner who could really see what

356
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 3: was happening, and he grabbed me one day and was like,

357
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 3: I don't want to talk to you to to get

358
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,879
Speaker 3: some help. And it called my parents. And you know,

359
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,640
Speaker 3: I used to watch that show Intervention when it first

360
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 3: came out.

361
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,240
Speaker 4: Yeah it is not Doctor Drew. I don't remember if.

362
00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,359
Speaker 3: That was Doctor Drew. Was it was something like that,

363
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:38,880
Speaker 3: but it was like where they would do an intervention.

364
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,199
Speaker 3: I remember. I think it was like the first season,

365
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,800
Speaker 3: and I was sitting there and I was wishing and

366
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 3: hoping somebody would do that for me. Oh interesting, obviously

367
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,399
Speaker 3: not enough to do it for myself. Yeah, but like right,

368
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 3: and I didn't want to go somewhere I wanted it

369
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,360
Speaker 3: to like not interrupt this life that I thought I

370
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,560
Speaker 3: was living. And you know, I I so once they

371
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,480
Speaker 3: kind of said, you know, I thought I was hiding

372
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:02,960
Speaker 3: all this stuff.

373
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Speaker 2: Once they said, you know, you need to get some help,

374
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:05,360
Speaker 2: I said yes.

375
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 1: And do you think most people who have a problem

376
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 1: with whether it be a substance or a behavior, what's

377
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,360
Speaker 1: the Is there a ratio of people who go, I

378
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,920
Speaker 1: know I have a problem, but I'm not doing it.

379
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,920
Speaker 1: I'm waiting for something to happen, versus those who are

380
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,840
Speaker 1: totally like, no, I don't have a problem at all,

381
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 1: but everyone around them is going, you have a problem.

382
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:26,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

383
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,480
Speaker 3: I mean I don't know percentages, but I think I

384
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,440
Speaker 3: think deep down he denials a very powerful drug.

385
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

386
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:34,880
Speaker 3: I mean I heard a guy recently say, he goes,

387
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:36,760
Speaker 3: you know, I had no problem accepting the fact that

388
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,720
Speaker 3: I was going to die in alcoholic death. He just

389
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,160
Speaker 3: totally accepted it. I just thought that was the path

390
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 3: he was on. But even in that, you know that

391
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 3: there's like something not right, But yeah, you kind of

392
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,240
Speaker 3: become okay with it.

393
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,960
Speaker 1: Right, and you just can't see another path out. Yeah,

394
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 1: Or it's like you're in the forest, there's just trees everywhere.

395
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 1: You're like, well, this is the only way to go down.

396
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,359
Speaker 3: And just surviving, you know. And but I think, you

397
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,680
Speaker 3: know that's I have a lot of people that will

398
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,359
Speaker 3: you know, call me and say we need to you know,

399
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 3: we need to do this big thing to try to

400
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 3: get someone in treatment and stuff, and some that I'll

401
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 3: just ask it. Have you asked them, you know, like

402
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,040
Speaker 3: a family, And a lot of times they haven't. Interesting

403
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,439
Speaker 3: I'm not saying every time you ask somebody they're going

404
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 3: to say yes. But you know, there's like sometimes these

405
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 3: family dynamics that's not people from even addressing the problem.

406
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,240
Speaker 3: They're just like moving around this giant elephant in the

407
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,119
Speaker 3: room and they don't know how how to deal with it,

408
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,160
Speaker 3: or they think if I say it, you know, they're

409
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:33,680
Speaker 3: going to say no, and you know.

410
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 4: It's going to break the relationship that the world's going

411
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 4: to blow up.

412
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,479
Speaker 3: And a no today isn't a no forever, even if

413
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,399
Speaker 3: they you know, even if they said that. And so

414
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,199
Speaker 3: I don't know, I mean, I think, you know, not

415
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 3: all drinking is problem drinking. You know, I could say

416
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 3: not all drug uses problem drug use for people, it's

417
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 3: going to be what's happening for the individual. But I

418
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,520
Speaker 3: think at a certain point when we're talking about people

419
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,240
Speaker 3: like you know me and what what you've shared about

420
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 3: you and a lot of the people that you know,

421
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 3: I've worked with in treatment or you know, at a

422
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 3: certain point they've become you know, the the drugs or

423
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,680
Speaker 3: the alcohol becomes like a medicine. So you know, they're

424
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 3: using that thing to solve something, right if they you know,

425
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 3: I say all the time, you know, addiction is not

426
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 3: the problem.

427
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 2: It's the solution right to the underlying problem, to.

428
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 3: The underlying problem, whatever that is for somebody, you know,

429
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 3: And even if it just started with I'm gonna you know,

430
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 3: I started taking these pills because I had a surgery.

431
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,680
Speaker 3: At a certain point, you know, and they become addicted

432
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,680
Speaker 3: and it's causing all these challenges in the world, and

433
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,960
Speaker 3: there's that in their world that creates its own underlying stress. Right.

434
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 3: So a lot of people, you know, you take away

435
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 3: that they start getting so they gets over you take

436
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,359
Speaker 3: away the medicine, life gets worse emotionally right away. For

437
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 3: a lot of people.

438
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 1: I think that gets missed so often and especially by

439
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,159
Speaker 1: the people around them. It's like, no, if you just

440
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: stop your life is going to immediately get better. It's like, no,

441
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't, because you just took away the only thing

442
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,719
Speaker 1: that could make the person feel like they could function

443
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 1: and live in the world. Yeah, and there's going to

444
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,679
Speaker 1: be this period where you're like, well, I still have

445
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 1: this problem. The problem doesn't immediately go away that you

446
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 1: were using substance or doing the behavior solve that problem.

447
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 1: So the problem is still there. But now you're like,

448
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 1: I have no tools to figure this thing out. What

449
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 1: the hell do I do? And that sucks.

450
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I can't tell you how many like

451
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 3: families I've had at times that like they they want

452
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 3: the person their loved one to get sober or clean

453
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 3: so bad and they've been and then they do, and

454
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 3: you know, a few weeks into it, they're like they're

455
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 3: easy to deal with when they were smoking pot. You know,

456
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 3: they don't really want them to go back to that.

457
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 3: But you know, they're running around kind of like a

458
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 3: live wire, you know. With my story, Like you knows,

459
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 3: as I'm telling you this, it's not this. You know.

460
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 3: I hear people tell these really super dramatic, amazing stories

461
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 3: and they're you know, end up in with a cartel

462
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 3: and you know, almost dead or kidnapped or something. I don't.

463
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 3: I don't really have that, you know. It was just

464
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 3: kind of this throw I think in maybe it was

465
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 3: in Walden said most men lead lives of quiet desperation. Yeah,

466
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 3: and I was in this quiet desperation for a long time,

467
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:23,719
Speaker 3: and I just felt really stuck.

468
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 2: And what you said. I used to sit there going.

469
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 3: I actually said one time to a friend, I think

470
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 3: I'm gonna make a T shirt that says I'm just

471
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 3: waiting for something to happen. So I was like observing

472
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 3: life and that's its own kind of suffering. Unfortunately, that

473
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 3: desperation got turned up loud enough that it was like, oh,

474
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 3: I need some help. And that's where I think the

475
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 3: people that you know end up needing help for addiction

476
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 3: and alcoholism. You know, sometimes they're the real fortunate ones

477
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 3: because they don't have to settle anymore. Like they get

478
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 3: this gift of desperation. Because I was like, I'm gonna die. Well,

479
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 3: we're all gonna die, you know, you pointed that out

480
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 3: to me.

481
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 4: But ideally let's not make that, you know, too soon.

482
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 2: Not too soon, and to be able to live well.

483
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's ride out those the rest of the

484
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: years we have in a way that is helpful and

485
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: not in miserable.

486
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 3: That one percent people are looking for some sort of solution,

487
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 3: almost like a sense of mindfulness or even a spiritual

488
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 3: solution when using drugs and alcohol. When it gets to

489
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 3: that point for those people, again, this is not everybody,

490
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 3: but you know they're people will say, you know, in recovery,

491
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 3: we'll say, live one day at a time. Well, a

492
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 3: lot of people in addiction we're living one day at

493
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 3: a time, you know, and you know, looking for some

494
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 3: sort of thing that you know, we hear it even

495
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 3: in the in with regular people that I see regular

496
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,239
Speaker 3: people like people that are not know where to them.

497
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 4: I'm okay with considering us irregular irregular people.

498
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 3: Well, I know, I am, you know, I mean, it's

499
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 3: in it's in our language, like I'm gonna go. We're

500
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 3: gonna go to the bar and take the edge off, right,

501
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 3: We're gonna you know, And and you know, it's kind

502
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 3: of like a guy, old guy used to know, you say,

503
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 3: three martinis works a lot faster than a prayer.

504
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just doesn't work long and it doesn't work well.

505
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 3: But I mean people are using it in a way

506
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 3: and I think to almost find mindfulness. Yeah, it's just

507
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 3: not something that over time, if you're using it too much,

508
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 3: to be too mindful in that way, can cause problems.

509
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: I feel like for me, I was like you in

510
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: the sense I just felt like I was different, somehow different.

511
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: I couldn't put a finger on it, like I had

512
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: a hard time connecting with people. But to that guy's

513
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: point about three martinis, if I have two drinks, all

514
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I'm like, oh, I can open up. No,

515
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: I can actually connect with people. I just need to

516
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: have a couple of drinks. Problem is is that once

517
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: I have too, I go, yeah, but if this is good,

518
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: what would a third be like? What would a fourth

519
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: be like? And what would insert any number be like?

520
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, just going over the falls.

521
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, But then you start to go, all right, well,

522
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: if I have to connect with people, and if I

523
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 1: want to feel this way, which makes me feel more

524
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: connected to everyone around me in the world, I'm going

525
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: to have to use this thing. And then you keep

526
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: repeating that over time it works until it doesn't effectively. Yeah,

527
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 1: what did you do after you decided you're like, all right,

528
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: I got to do something. What did you do and

529
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: what was what were the hardest parts?

530
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 3: You know, then I was thirty two years old and

531
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 3: I didn't have I wasn't married, wasn't in a relationship,

532
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 3: and have kids, you know, so it was business had

533
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 3: fallen apart, and I recognized all that. You know, it

534
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 3: was kind of like I was holding it together until

535
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 3: someone like pierced this little like you know, like a

536
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 3: little pinprick in the veil, and I was like, you know,

537
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 3: I actually felt some relief. And I went to a

538
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,719
Speaker 3: treatment center and I stayed in treatment for like four months,

539
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 3: and you know, I think what was the hardest part.

540
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 3: I remember I had a therapist who I was telling this.

541
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 3: I was like, man, I'm doing the hard work. And

542
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: he was kind of a rough, old junkie from the

543
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 3: streets of New York that was just like it had

544
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 3: helped thousands of people, and I was like, man, I'm

545
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 3: really doing the hard work today.

546
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 2: It was would you would you dig ditches today?

547
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 3: Like like wrote a letter about your past? And I

548
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 3: was like, oh, okay, fair enough. So but I mean

549
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 3: I think it was, you know, I for better or worse.

550
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 3: You know, life wasn't maybe moving in the direction that

551
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 3: I wanted to or you know, I was barreling down

552
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: the river to go off the falls, but I knew

553
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 3: how to live that life, you know, and we become

554
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 3: oriented to the lives that we're in. And even when

555
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: something's we're going to improve something or do something, you know,

556
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 3: there's a real sense of disorientation, you know, and that's

557
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: not a bad thing, but I found in my life,

558
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 3: and you know when I work with clients too, that

559
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 3: you know, we'll fight that disorder, you know, being disoriented,

560
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 3: when sometimes that's just where we need to be. Like

561
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 3: it's it's okay to be lost and not know the

562
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: direction that we want to go yet, and and there's

563
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 3: a season to kind of sit in that and as

564
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: we reorient.

565
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 2: So it was, you know, it was kind of like

566
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: what you just talked about.

567
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 3: It was like figuring out how to be in social situations,

568
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 3: you know, figuring out how to you know, be in

569
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 3: a relationship. And I had a mentor that would say,

570
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 3: you know, you're not going to know how to work

571
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 3: till your work. You're not going to go out, how

572
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 3: to date till you date. You're not going to know

573
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: how to go to a wedding till you go to

574
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 3: a wedding and but you're going to have support in

575
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 3: doing that.

576
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and to begin begin.

577
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I found like and I you know, found

578
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 3: real community in other folks. And it wasn't about sitting

579
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 3: around going I can't drink. It was like, let's go

580
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 3: build these you know, let's go build lives. I didn't

581
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 3: think that at first. Of course, I was like, my

582
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 3: life is over, you know, I'm not going to have

583
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 3: fun anymore. And it was like and and and it's

584
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: just over the last you know, almost twenty years. It's

585
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 3: really opened my eyes that you know, you can really

586
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 3: lean into life. You know, I've got to have some

587
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 3: amazing experiences and work all over the world and you know,

588
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: do things like this and go to a fish show

589
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 3: with somebody that I with you who I met through

590
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 3: this is going to sound weird through a DM on

591
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: Instagram after you were both on a podcast.

592
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: And like exactly, I had a guy who told me

593
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: when I was first getting sober around social situations and alcohol,

594
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: it was like, look, if you feel like your sobriety

595
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: is at risk and you feel like, you know, that

596
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: is not a good place for you to go to

597
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: break that, you can just leave. Yeah, you don't have

598
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: to make You don't have to sit there and struggle.

599
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: You can just go, oh, I got to go. Something

600
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: came up. You can just leave a situation and you'll

601
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: immediately be out of it. And that had never occurred

602
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: to me. No, I was like, oh, and then so

603
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: that that helped me. Now I never had to do that, thankfully,

604
00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: but it was like that allowed me to sort of

605
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: get into place. So I go, all right, if this

606
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: feels weird to me, I can just sleep. I got

607
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: a text from my mom whatever she said, I gotta go.

608
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: You know what, what's some of the best advice you've

609
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: heard from working with people and other people who are sober?

610
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: Like life advice?

611
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: I mean it's it's usually very simple things like that,

612
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: you know, like you can start your day over at anytime. Yeah,

613
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 3: I mean that that like blew my mind, Like, okay,

614
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 3: I can reorient I can. I'm like it used to

615
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: be like I think of it like the when you're

616
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: driving down the road they call them rumble strips the highway,

617
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 3: you know, and you're like you kind of go over

618
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: and it goes, you know, you're meant to kind of

619
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 3: ease back on the road. I think the way that

620
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 3: I kind of lived my life is like there's a

621
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: rumble strips, like, next set of tires hit them. Now

622
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 3: I'm in the ditch. It's like I'm flipped over. The

623
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 3: jaws of life are coming, the car's on fire, and

624
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 3: then I'll go.

625
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 2: Oh, can I get some help?

626
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 3: Like you don't have to do that, Like you can

627
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 3: kind of set up your own rumble strips guardrails in

628
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 3: life to kind of ease back back onto it or

629
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 3: things like what you just said, like you can, you can,

630
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: you can leave it any time. Like I thought, Okay,

631
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 3: I'm going to be the sober driver and drive everybody

632
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 3: around while our partying. And that was like the most

633
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 3: annoying thing I could ever do. And it wasn't like

634
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 3: I wanted to go drink, but it's like it's annoying.

635
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: A friend of mine that I.

636
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 3: Went to college with got sober a while after I did,

637
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 3: and he had gone to some wedding with a bunch

638
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: of friends and he's like, you know, I realized that

639
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 3: after ten o'clock, there's only one joke, and that joke

640
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: was like, look how wasted I am? Yeah, you know,

641
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: So I found myself in situations like that you leave

642
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 3: at ten, that everyone's out till two, and the next

643
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: day they didn't even realize I left.

644
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 4: Right totally, totally.

645
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 3: You know. So I mean, you know, you know, no,

646
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 3: there are no emergencies, right. The only crisis is a

647
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: crisis unless we have to call nine one one. There's

648
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 3: nothing that we can't wait or slow down to deal with.

649
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: I mean, just very simple, you know, things like that.

650
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it gets maybe overused, but living

651
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: one day at time, you know, and that's not something

652
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 3: that's I think was invented by twelve step programs. I

653
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 3: mean we you know, when we look at uh, I

654
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 3: think that was at the Greeks at Carpe dm seize

655
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 3: the day that that sounds very familiar, you know, if

656
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 3: you look even I'm not a biblical scholar by any means,

657
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: but I know that I think it's in the Beatitudes.

658
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 3: Jesus is quote is saying, don't have anxiety for tomorrow,

659
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 3: for tomorrow will have its own anxieties.

660
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

661
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: I mean, these are things that I think man has

662
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: been dealing with for a long time where we'll get

663
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: like wrapped up in the this universe that we create

664
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: up here that doesn't exist.

665
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 4: The story making everything up.

666
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 3: And that's not a bad thing, you know. I think

667
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 3: we want to know. One of the things we work

668
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 3: with is like events are neutral. You know, they're all neutral.

669
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 3: We bring the meaning to them. And the goal isn't

670
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 3: to stop bringing meaning to events, you know, otherwise, like

671
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 3: last night, we'd be sitting there having a blast going,

672
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: you know, like I want to love my wife and

673
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 3: you know, find joy in my children and them with me,

674
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 3: Like we want to bring But I think the point

675
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 3: is to recognize we are bringing the meaning. Yeah, so

676
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 3: what meaning are we going to bring to it? Yeah,

677
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: that it doesn't we don't have to be a victim

678
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 3: of circumstance and the world, you know, kind of driving

679
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 3: us that we can actually figure out ways to get

680
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 3: in the driver's seat.

681
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a you know, what story are you going

682
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: to tell yourself about an event? And there's ways to

683
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: use that for good and there's ways that you can

684
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: get trapped in the story that ultimately hurts you. But

685
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: if you can go what narrative am I telling myself

686
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: around this?

687
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 4: Could there be other.

688
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: Ways to interpret this can be useful? How do you

689
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: how do you define addiction? What is it?

690
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 4: What is addiction?

691
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: You know.

692
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 3: I mean, I think and we were we were talking

693
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 3: about this. I mean, there's clinical terms that we can

694
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 3: look at. You know, there's you know, substance use disorder,

695
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 3: alcohol use disorder. There's then there's kind of the what

696
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 3: we use in our language. People say, I'm adicted to

697
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 3: my iPhone, I'm addicted to this I you know, And

698
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: I think it's it's more nuanced than that, you know.

699
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,719
Speaker 3: I think a question to ask is, you know, do

700
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: I have it or does it have me? You know,

701
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: am I am? I? Am I in control over whatever

702
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 3: is happening or or or is it kind of in control?

703
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,959
Speaker 1: What are the signs that something is out of a

704
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: person's control. I think we like people can inherently know,

705
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: but what are some of some of like the guideline.

706
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 3: I mean, you can look at the things that are

707
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 3: happening with them, you know, and they're physically you know,

708
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 3: is there it is it harming them and their bodies

709
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 3: in some way? Psychologically, how they're kind of thinking and

710
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 3: relating to the world socially, Is it having an impact

711
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: on their relationships or their work or legal situation. So

712
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 3: there's those kind of things we can we can look at.

713
00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 3: I think even in the face of repeated consequences. And

714
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 3: that's a big word sometimes because people go, I haven't

715
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 3: had consequences. But I like that word consequences, like con

716
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 3: is with and sequence. So it's like, because of this

717
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 3: in sequence, right, if I'm doing this, this is happening.

718
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: And I think a lot of the consequences are for

719
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 3: people are internal, like and how are they viewing themselves

720
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 3: the world and their and their place in it?

721
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 4: So do I like myself when I do this?

722
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: Yeah?

723
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: And what are my big life goals? And is it

724
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: helping those or hurting those?

725
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 3: Right? I think everybody kind of can have a little

726
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 3: bit different definition of what it is. But when we're

727
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: working with somebody one on one or even in groups,

728
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 3: it's like it's an end of one like how is

729
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 3: it impacting your life?

730
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 4: Right?

731
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: And or not?

732
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 3: I don't know if that answers your question.

733
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: That answers my question you. I mean, we've kind of

734
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: been focusing on substances up till now, but you today

735
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: mostly work with people who are not addicted to substances.

736
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so what does that look like and how

737
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 4: as a play out?

738
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think, and this is where we

739
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 3: come back to I'll come back to addiction for a second.

740
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: So I I like to kind of broaden the definition

741
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 3: of that, like, what is it that we're using to

742
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 3: kind of as a crutch, What is it that we're

743
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 3: using to get outside of ourselves? What is it that

744
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 3: And it doesn't have to be in a way that

745
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: that's ruining our lives completely. But you know, I think

746
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 3: that when people will come to ask for help, something's

747
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 3: not going something's not going the way that they want.

748
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 3: Even if it's somebody's like I want to get better

749
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 3: at this thing, or I'm afraid of taking you know,

750
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 3: life is great, but I don't really know how to

751
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 3: deepen my relationship with you know, a romantic relationship or

752
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 3: take on this new risk. Something's not going right. They're saying,

753
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 3: I want therapy or I want coaching. Yeah, I think

754
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 3: that's kind of in the that's on the surface, kind

755
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 3: of in the behavior I say, in the behavioral realm,

756
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 3: how they're acting in the world is they want it

757
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 3: to be different. But what we need to do often

758
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 3: is we look underneath. So if there's a behavior that

759
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: they have that they don't like, you know, I always

760
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: like say, we got to intervene on that behavior. So

761
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 3: if it was addiction, we're going to have them stop drinking.

762
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 3: If it's you know, something else, we can have them

763
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: stop doing that, or an intervention of their they're just

764
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 3: coming to ask for help. And then we want to

765
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 3: be able to look underneath that to see what are

766
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 3: the emotions that are driving that, What are the kind

767
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: of negative the ones that we frame is negative or

768
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 3: or limiting, So fear, regret or fear, guilt, shame, things

769
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 3: like that, Yeah.

770
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 4: What is it? What is it?

771
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 2: The solution for right?

772
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 3: And but what's interesting is that to me anyway, is

773
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 3: that when we can understand their emotions that are driving

774
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: and it's not that people are only in this emotion,

775
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 3: but if they've got like overwhelming fear or they might

776
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 3: say it's like anxiety or or frustration or anger, that

777
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 3: it's misplaced, right, they're they're afraid. Fear is a is

778
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 3: a good emotion if there's something to be afraid of.

779
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 3: But if they're you know, laying in bed on a

780
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 3: Saturday night, worried about what's going to happen at a

781
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 3: meeting at work on Wednesday, that's not that's not useful.

782
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 3: But when we can understand that kind of emotional state,

783
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 3: especially the more limiting negative ones. We can see that

784
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 3: the behaviors are almost always in alignment with that. If

785
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 3: you're living in fear, you're gonna fear based behaviors. If

786
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 3: you're living in shame, shame based.

787
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 4: Behaviors, do those behaviors play out.

788
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 3: Well, it's going to depend. But like you know, if

789
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 3: someone's uh, you know, constantly avoiding situations or you know,

790
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 3: running from situations or even sometimes fighting you know, in

791
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 3: relationships or something like that, that might be that they're

792
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 3: they're terrified of, you know, of whatever the result is

793
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 3: going to be, you know, or you know, I think

794
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: some people will act out in in secret behaviors that

795
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 3: they're that go against their own morals or their own principles.

796
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 3: You know, if they're feeling a lot of shame, they

797
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 3: have these shame based behaviors that sometimes help them make

798
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 3: of this kind of existential you know, I kind of

799
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 3: break these like like like shame for example, And some

800
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 3: people might argue this, I think it's a it's a

801
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 3: beneficial emotion like shame if I if I did something

802
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 3: to hurt your feelings or somebody else that I I

803
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 3: did something, even if I wasn't aware of it, and

804
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: it brought I was brought to my attention that feeling

805
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 3: of shame is going to give me the energy to

806
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 3: come make amends or make it right with my friend.

807
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: It's a signal that you did something wrong. Right, very useful.

808
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a there's a reason that we have

809
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: bad feelings. I typically, you know, there's an evolutionary context there.

810
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: It's like, shame is useful because it tells the individual, Hey,

811
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't have done that thing, like maybe don't

812
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: do that again.

813
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and so that's beneficial. It's when people are

814
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 3: walking around with what I'll call it existential shame, just

815
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 3: like shame for who I am.

816
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that's not helpful, right, And so.

817
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 3: You know, or they're they're walking around in fear all

818
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 3: the time that they're going to be exposed or they're

819
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 3: going to be hurt. And if you're in a situation

820
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 3: where you might be hurt, that fear is good. But

821
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 3: if you're walking around with that all the time, now

822
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 3: you're reacting, you know, you're seeing, you're seeing the situations

823
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 3: through that lens and then then reacting in that way.

824
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 3: And that goes to kind of what's the level deeper

825
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 3: than that, which is their beliefs about themselves, the world

826
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 3: and their place in it. And these are generally these

827
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 3: kind of fixed beliefs. And you know, when I do

828
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 3: work with people, we look back at history, not to

829
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 3: blame family or you know, where they came from or

830
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: their ancestors, but to understand how they were shaped and

831
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 3: what are these kind of fixed beliefs that they developed

832
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 3: in a way that that helped them navigate the world,

833
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 3: to navigate the world their world, not even the world,

834
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: the world, their their world. So if someone grew up

835
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 3: in a in a family where and it doesn't always

836
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 3: have to be this dramatic, but I'm going to use

837
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 3: something more dramatic where they're dad was abusive or controlling.

838
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 3: You know, they had brothers that were really tough, and

839
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: they were fighting all the time. You know, maybe they

840
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 3: got bullied at school by other men or boys. You know,

841
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 3: there may be this underlying belief that men are dangerous.

842
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 3: That would make sense. You know, if all the men

843
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 3: around them are dangerous and they get this men are dangerous,

844
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 3: that's going to help them navigate the world. They're going

845
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 3: to be one a hyper vigilant state. They're going to

846
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: be aware when that happens if that's not resolved in

847
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 3: some way, and often it's not because they're not even

848
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 3: aware of this. This is we're putting words to this

849
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 3: after the fact. You know, what's going to happen when

850
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: they want to they grow up. They're not in that

851
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 3: environment where men are dangerous all the time. They're in

852
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 3: an environment where you know, some men may be dangerous,

853
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 3: but the majority probably aren't. And they want to work

854
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 3: in an environment with men. They want to be on

855
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 3: a sports team with men, they want to have friends

856
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 3: that are men. They have a son. And if they

857
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 3: still kind of are filtering through this and this is

858
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 3: happening unconsciously and automatically, we'll see them maybe not get

859
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 3: not get close, or become really afraid and then avoid situations,

860
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 3: or you know, have kind of repressed anger and other

861
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 3: things like that. And you don't want to go the

862
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 3: other way and go, okay, all men are safe, because

863
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 3: now you're walking, you know, at three am in a

864
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: dark alley and you hear someone running up behind you,

865
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 3: and instead of running away, you're going to turn around

866
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 3: and hug them.

867
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 2: Hey man, how's it going like?

868
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 3: That's not the that you know, we want to be

869
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 3: able to get to where we don't have these kind

870
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 3: of fixed beliefs about ourselves. And that's what you know,

871
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 3: really impactful trauma ultimately does, is it creates this, you know,

872
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 3: it it can when someone has a really impactful traumatic

873
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 3: event that they end up with PTSD, it kind of

874
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: you know, I think Andrew Heberman always says this, like,

875
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 3: you know, the quickest way to neuroplasticity is a is

876
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 3: a traumatic event, you know, And and it's beneficial because

877
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 3: it's going to change the way that we see the

878
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 3: world so that we can survive it. But that's really

879
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 3: when we look at it underneath, it's about this kind

880
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 3: of belief system about who I am, what the world is,

881
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 3: and how I fit in it. So when we can

882
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 3: understand those the beliefs that they care, it makes sense

883
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 3: that's in alignment with those emotions. So if you believe

884
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 3: the world is dangerous, and that's the lens through which

885
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 3: you see the world, I mean you think you're going

886
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 3: to be walking around with like confidence and joy and

887
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 3: stuff all the time. No, you're going to be people

888
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 3: are going to be afraid. And if they're afraid, then

889
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 3: they're gonna have fear based behaviors. And so what I

890
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 3: think is helpful that for folks is that it can

891
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 3: see that it makes sense. We can make sense of

892
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 3: almost any behavior, the craziest stuff. That doesn't mean it's okay.

893
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that they don't have accountability or responsibility

894
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 3: for things that harm other people.

895
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: But we can make sense of it. And then when

896
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 2: they can understand that, it.

897
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 3: Doesn't mean, like I said last night, it doesn't mean

898
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 3: that you discover this happened on a Tuesday in nineteen

899
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 3: eighty two. So we know that, and I'm going to

900
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 3: be better. But it can help people see like what

901
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 3: they're kind of throwing, especially under stress, you know how

902
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 3: life flows through the vessel that they are, and they

903
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 3: kind of will return to when you know, and stress

904
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 3: isn't always a bad thing.

905
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 2: It's like when you take on I was telling somebody yesterday.

906
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 3: When I you know, in the without naming the twelve

907
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 3: step program, but in that I had heard guys say

908
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: that we're twenty five years sober, like I need this

909
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: program more today than they did the day I came in,

910
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 3: And I used to think, what are they doing something wrong?

911
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 3: Like this should be easy for them, And now that

912
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 3: I'm there, I realized what they meant, which was, like

913
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 3: I was thirty two years old, I was living like

914
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 3: a boy.

915
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 2: I didn't have any responsibilities.

916
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 3: The people that I did have responsibilities to just wanted

917
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 3: me to like stop drinking.

918
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: And then I built a life. And now I've got

919
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 2: you know, a wife.

920
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 3: Three kids, a dog, a home, a career, friends, all

921
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 3: the stuff I wanted. But there's more stuff and there

922
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 3: for all of my fears to bump up against. Yeah, right,

923
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 3: there's more responsibility. There's more and so under stress. You know,

924
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 3: I can see myself and stress being good, Like I

925
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 3: want the stress of leaning into life, but I can

926
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 3: easily get into situations where it kind of throws me

927
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: back to those old kind of unconscious patterns and behaviors.

928
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 3: And to be able to be aware of those isn't

929
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 3: going to change them right away, but it can make

930
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 3: sense of oh yeah, this makes sense.

931
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 4: You know, when you work.

932
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: With people, is it easy for them to see those

933
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: patterns and where they might have come from or does

934
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: that take a lot of work or is it probably

935
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: taste by terse.

936
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:38,919
Speaker 3: It's case by case. But I think, you know, we're

937
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 3: actually not that complicated. I don't think, you know. I

938
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 3: mean it's complicated sometimes because a lot of people will

939
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 3: come in and you know, they haven't had a lot

940
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 3: of education around this or not aware, and they're looking

941
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 3: at like how the world is doing this to them?

942
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 3: And in a lot of cases, the world did stuff

943
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 3: to them. They might have been victims of something, you know.

944
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 3: And but when they can start talking understand, you know,

945
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 3: I'm the one now making like we were talking about,

946
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: bringing the meaning to all of this, and they can

947
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 3: start to get an understanding of Okay, where where are

948
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 3: these patterns? Where did I pick them up from? You know,

949
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 3: because we kind of inherit. We're all downstream of the

950
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 3: generations before us, right, and that doesn't mean we don't

951
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 3: have any sort of control. But we call them our

952
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 3: as I said yesterday, we call them our formative years

953
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 3: for a reason. We reforming our brains, performing like our

954
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: ego development is happening. We're kind of learning how to

955
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 3: navigate this this small, tiny little part of the universe

956
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 3: that we live in, and we all become very good

957
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 3: at it.

958
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: I think we're all.

959
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 3: The best in the world at navigating our own lives,

960
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 3: as evidenced by the fact that we've survived everything that

961
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 3: we've been through up to and including this moment.

962
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like to use your example of someone who

963
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: fears men, if all the men around you were harmful,

964
00:45:58,320 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: if you didn't have a response to that, that was

965
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: like I should probably avoid that, be vigilant. That wouldn't

966
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: help you at all. That would be very strange. That

967
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: would hurt you. Yeah, but you developed that. And then

968
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: to your point, once you move into another phase of life,

969
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: carrying that all of a sudden, although it was useful

970
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: in the past, it's not going to be quite as

971
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: useful in the present, right.

972
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 3: And we learned to play the game of life our game. Yeah,

973
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 3: and we all have different games. So I mean, I'm

974
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 3: I grew up, you know, in the eighties and nineties,

975
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: born in the seventies and getting old, which is a

976
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 3: good thing. I guess it's better than the all happens.

977
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 3: I'm not getting young, but not also stopping getting old.

978
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 4: You know.

979
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 3: Michael Jordan was like the best you know, I mean,

980
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 3: like you know, and there's all these debates on whether

981
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 3: he's the best basketball player ever or not.

982
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 4: But we'll just settle it. Who's the best basketball But you.

983
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: Also, don't you know people would say, like that guy's

984
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 3: the Michael Jordan of accounting, like they like it defines

985
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 3: who the best. His name defined who the best was right,

986
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 3: So if we can like suspend our disbelief for a

987
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 3: moment and imagine that the only thing, the only game

988
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 3: Michael knew was basketball. That's all he knew. He knew

989
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 3: basketball court, basketball basketball rules. He didn't know football field, football,

990
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 3: football team, he didn't even know it existed. This is

991
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 3: all he knew. Okay, And he's the best in the

992
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 3: world and one of the most competitive people on the planet.

993
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 3: And then we take him and we put him on

994
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 3: a football field in a football uniform, and he goes

995
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 3: out and they throw the ball to him, he catches it.

996
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 3: What's he going to do?

997
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to say, like a lane back jumper, probably

998
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: back jumper.

999
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 3: He's going to try to dribble it right a tongue

1000
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 3: right on the football field. How do you think he's

1001
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 3: going to look and how do you think He's probably

1002
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 3: going to feel like it doesn't fit in in that environment.

1003
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 2: So then you know he's he's not being successful in this.

1004
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 3: So he goes back and I don't know Michael's So

1005
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 3: I'm this is all kind of guessing, but you know,

1006
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 3: I think they're going to make another play.

1007
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 2: And you know, he's got a couple options.

1008
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 3: He could quit, fight, flee, or he could fight and

1009
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 3: play harder. One of the most competitive people on the planet,

1010
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 3: and he's probably gonna try it again.

1011
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 2: They throw him the ball. Now he's dribbling the football.

1012
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 3: He's and doing it, playing basketball better than he's ever

1013
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 3: played on a football field, doing the thing that he's

1014
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 3: the best at at and he's making less sense.

1015
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 2: He's feeling crazier and looking crazier.

1016
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 3: Right, So now we pull him back and we go

1017
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 3: where I will say, hey, Mike, this is football.

1018
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 2: This is what it is.

1019
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 3: Look, this is the field, these are the rules, this

1020
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,919
Speaker 3: is the ball, this is how we play. So now

1021
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 3: he can start to see that there's another game and

1022
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 3: he goes out, Is he going to be the best

1023
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 3: in the world right away? No chance. But at least

1024
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 3: he can play, and some of the things that he

1025
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 3: developed as a basketball player can transfer. Right He's got athleticism,

1026
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 3: he can and see a field, he knows teamwork, he's

1027
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 3: got hand eye coordination, all that stuff. And he may

1028
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 3: never be the best in the world, but he can play. Yeah,

1029
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 3: And I think that that's that's what happens a lot

1030
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 3: with folks, you know, when they're coming into either whether

1031
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 3: it's sobriety or or healing from other mental mental health conditions.

1032
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 3: It's like, you're the best at the game you've been playing.

1033
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 3: It might not be you might not be winning in

1034
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 3: the way that you want, but we're going to introduce

1035
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 3: you to a new game and help you develop that game.

1036
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 3: And it doesn't mean you have to throw everything away

1037
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 3: that you know you've got. You you won made it here.

1038
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: What are the first things you have people do when

1039
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: you're working with them?

1040
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 3: Is there a playbook there or is it just casey

1041
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 3: case It's it's a bit case by case, but I

1042
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 3: think you know pretty quickly. I want to understand, you

1043
00:49:53,000 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 3: know what their goals are and what success is for them.

1044
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 3: So if you look at it, going back to a

1045
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 3: sports metaphor, you know, if you're playing basketball or playing

1046
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 3: you know, people know the game, they know the rules, right.

1047
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 3: The purpose of the coach, which could be like the

1048
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 3: therapist in my situation, the purpose of the coach is

1049
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 3: to have the team win, and they know what winning is.

1050
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 3: It's scored more points than the other team, and to

1051
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 3: do that in a higher percentage over a season than

1052
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 3: anybody else. We don't know what that is for each individual.

1053
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 3: You know, even people that look like you know, everyone sees, well,

1054
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 3: they're using heroin. They need to stop using heroin. Maybe

1055
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 3: that's a part of it. But what's the life that

1056
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 3: they want to move toward and build such that Heroin's

1057
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 3: not going to have a place. Yeah, you know and

1058
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 3: understand that. So we can define in a way what

1059
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 3: winning is for them because we can't give You can't

1060
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 3: take people from You got to take people from where

1061
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 3: they are to where they aren't. You can't take people

1062
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 3: from where they aren't to where they aren't. You know,

1063
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 3: when I was flying coming out here, I called you

1064
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 3: and I said, hey, Michael, I need to get to

1065
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 3: Las Vegas. And you know, you thought I was in

1066
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 3: New York And I said, give me directions, And you

1067
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 3: started giving me directions to you know, drive down ninety five,

1068
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 3: get on the Highway to head west.

1069
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: Across the bridge, Yeah, go through Jersey.

1070
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's not going to help me.

1071
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 3: And even if you knew I was in Florida, and

1072
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 3: you're like Okay, you drive here, Well you didn't know

1073
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 3: that I need to be there by tomorrow. I'm not

1074
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 3: going to get there. So then you go, okay, go

1075
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 3: to the airport, buy a first class ticket. What I

1076
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 3: only have two hundred dollars? Like, we have to understand

1077
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 3: kind of where they want to go, where they are,

1078
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 3: and then what are the obstacles in the way, what's

1079
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 3: the territory that they need to travel? And this this

1080
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 3: is different for each person. Yeah, not completely. I think

1081
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 3: a lot of people are in the same vein and direction.

1082
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 3: But if we don't have aim, we're aimless.

1083
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:48,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1084
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: You mentioned how stress these sorts of past behaviors that

1085
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: don't help often come out under stress. What are things

1086
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: people can do in the moment, because I know you

1087
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: do a lot of stuff with breath work and other things.

1088
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: What do you what do you think is helpful for

1089
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:02,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people?

1090
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 3: I think now we're we're getting into into your world too,

1091
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 3: you know. I mean it's training ourselves to be able

1092
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 3: to be in those uncomfortable, emotionally uncomfortable moments, you know,

1093
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 3: And you know, as I really you know, looking from

1094
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 3: a perspective of the nervous system, I think that we

1095
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 3: often confuse discomfort emotional discomfort with threat, and then we

1096
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 3: react to it as if it's threatening to us, and

1097
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 3: we fight flight or or or freeze in some some way.

1098
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 3: You know, that's the very simple the three f's that

1099
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 3: people talk about. But you know, we'll try to avoid it,

1100
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 3: we'll try to run through it, try to you know, just.

1101
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 2: Completely shut down.

1102
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 3: And so I think in the moment, first off, it's

1103
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 3: understanding what are the conditions that you know, we help

1104
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 3: people understand, like how do you recognize when you're in

1105
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 3: one of these reactions?

1106
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 2: And then what is it that's driving it?

1107
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 4: You know?

1108
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 3: And I think it's often some sort of stress around

1109
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 3: the system, not external but internal just the way that

1110
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 3: they're thinking or believing or and you know, I often

1111
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 3: tell people a very simple question, ask yourself, is like,

1112
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 3: am I or is anyone around me in this moment

1113
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 3: in immediate physical danger? If you can ask yourself that question,

1114
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 3: chances are you're probably not. And most of us, most

1115
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 3: of the situations we're in on a daily basis, like

1116
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 3: all day yesterday, The most like I was at threat

1117
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 3: was when we were driving in a car or when

1118
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 3: I flew in a.

1119
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 4: Plane, Especially because I'm a shitty driver, so I was.

1120
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 2: Driving part of the day too.

1121
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 3: But I mean, like that's probably the most dangerous thing

1122
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:46,879
Speaker 3: most of us do in a day, and most people

1123
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,839
Speaker 3: aren't afraid of that, right, But like a look from

1124
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 3: my wife or you know, a phone call that doesn't

1125
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 3: go my way can throw me, you know, throw me

1126
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 3: into it. And most people, so it's like being able

1127
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 3: to recognize those that that that's happening and it's going

1128
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 3: to happen. You know. Frankel, Victor Frankel, who wrote Man

1129
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 3: Search for Meeting, would say, did you ever read that book?

1130
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1131
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, he was a psychiatrist or psychologists

1132
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 3: psychiatrist who was in the in the Holocaust, and I

1133
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 3: think his book is like required reading for everybody. But

1134
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 3: you know, one of his quotes was, and I don't

1135
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 3: know if it was actually in this book, but was

1136
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 3: in between the stimulus and response, there's a space, and

1137
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 3: in that space is our ability to choose, and in

1138
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 3: that choice lies our power and our freedom. The stoics

1139
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 3: would say that we had an there's like an impression

1140
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 3: and then a response, right, and what and I'm getting

1141
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 3: back to your question, is we can't control the stimulus,

1142
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 3: we can't control the impression. And I think first working

1143
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 3: with people to say, let's stop trying to let's stop

1144
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 3: trying to stop having those things happen, because they're going

1145
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 3: to happen.

1146
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: You're going to get pissed, you're going to get upset.

1147
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: If you do that too much, you end up living

1148
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,479
Speaker 1: in like a hermetically sealed bubble. And then that comes

1149
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: with its own.

1150
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,720
Speaker 2: So then that has its its own stuff.

1151
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 3: So all right, So how do we build that space,

1152
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 3: that space between the stimulus and response rather than going

1153
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 3: from you know, trigger to reaction, and a lot of

1154
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 3: that is we look back at I think very simple things,

1155
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 3: like it was saying yesterday, if you're in the office

1156
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 3: and somebody really pisses you off, you're probably not going

1157
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 3: to lay down on the floor and do a yoga

1158
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 3: nidra or you're not going to run to a cold

1159
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 3: plunge and jump into it.

1160
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: So what are some things that can quickly help us act?

1161
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 3: You know, when we're in a stress response, our sympathetic

1162
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 3: nervous system is activated. That's a part of our automatic

1163
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 3: nervous system that kind of controls the fight or flight

1164
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 3: right for very simple terms, the parasympathetic is what activates

1165
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 3: and kind of controls the rest and digest. So, you know,

1166
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 3: we don't want to If you ever tell someone who's

1167
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 3: upset or someone you're upset to remember city, you just

1168
00:55:58,280 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 3: like just relax.

1169
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 2: Calm down.

1170
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 3: I don't know about you.

1171
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 2: It never does has the opposite effect on me.

1172
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 3: It has the opposite effect because it's not a deactivation

1173
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 3: of the sympathetic nervousness. If it's not a deactivation of

1174
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 3: the stress response, it's an activation of the relaxation response.

1175
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 3: So it's an action to activate that part of the nervousness.

1176
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 3: So how do we do that? Long slow exhales, other

1177
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 3: forms of breath can do that very quickly, I think,

1178
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:31,839
Speaker 3: And I'm not I'm not a scientist, but I think,

1179
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 3: you know, when we're under stress, we have kind of

1180
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 3: a certain breathing pattern in our bodies getting ready to

1181
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 3: you know, chances are people aren't taking long, slow, deep

1182
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 3: breaths and exhales and they're or they're holding their breath

1183
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:42,959
Speaker 3: or whatever they're doing.

1184
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, think about when people get nervous. If you're

1185
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 1: on let's say you're on a stage, given a talk,

1186
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: what is your podcast, or on a podcast.

1187
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,479
Speaker 4: After three hours of sleep, like both of us are.

1188
00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 1: You don't go when you're stressed, you don't go, No,

1189
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: you're going, and your heart rates going like that, and

1190
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,320
Speaker 1: so you need to almost trigger the outside.

1191
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 3: Right, So that's sending a signal somewhere that's saying we're

1192
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 3: not okay.

1193
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, without changing what you're thinking.

1194
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:17,959
Speaker 3: If you just change that breath and do the physiological

1195
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 3: sigh or the the a long slow exhale, I think

1196
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 3: that sends another signal that goes, wow, if we can

1197
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 3: do this, we're probably not in danger.

1198
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1199
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think too, to your point, whether it's

1200
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 1: having outside perspective, whether it's a therapist, whether it's even

1201
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: a wise friend, I think that can be useful too.

1202
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: I remember one time I was I had I can't

1203
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: remember what the event was. It was like an interpersonal

1204
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 1: relationship thing, and I thought someone had slighted me.

1205
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 4: I was convinced and this was you know, and.

1206
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: I tell my friend about this and he just looks

1207
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: at me and goes, you ever wonder if you're ever

1208
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: just too damned sensitive? And I was like, I had

1209
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 1: not thought of that. You may be onto something there,

1210
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 1: you know. I was like, this is another big deal. Yeah,

1211
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: it's like having those outside perspectives too.

1212
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 4: And I think that.

1213
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: I would I'm making a generalization, but I feel like

1214
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 1: for men in particular, we don't just talk about stuff, right,

1215
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: you know. And but if we don't talk about stuff,

1216
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: then we don't get those moments where someone goes you

1217
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 1: ever think you're too damned sensitive, and you just go huh.

1218
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: And I also think there's differences in what people need,

1219
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: so having someone that you can trust to bounce things

1220
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: off of. Another guy who helped me a lot, said

1221
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 1: some people need to kick in the ass and some

1222
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 1: need a pat on the back. Yeah, And he's like,

1223
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,919
Speaker 1: you know, you seem like a person needs on pad

1224
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: on the back. But other people I've worked with, I'm

1225
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: much different with them, they didn't kick in the ass.

1226
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1227
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 3: I mean, if we think about what if we were

1228
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 3: really in a situation that we needed to survive that moment,

1229
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 3: you know, we really become myopic. You know, we're focused

1230
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 3: on you know, when they're talking in twelve sup recovery,

1231
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 3: like the selfishness and self centeredness that's the root of

1232
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 3: our problem. Well, if someone was in our biology, like

1233
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 3: if we're like our evolution, I'm sure, or even in

1234
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 3: the animal world, if you watch an animal running from

1235
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 3: a predator, they're not thinking about every They're just the

1236
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 3: survival of the faust, right, They're just going That's like

1237
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 3: a survival in those moments is really like a selfishness

1238
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 3: and self centeredness. So if we're in survival mode, that's

1239
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 3: what's going to come out for people become we become

1240
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 3: myopic and being able to get perspective in some ways,

1241
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 3: which is that perspective could be a simple breath that

1242
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 3: allows us to kind of relax back from what we're experiencing.

1243
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 3: I mean literally sometimes it's I'll tell people to lean

1244
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 3: literally lean back in your chair and imagine that like

1245
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 3: whatever you're experiencing is in front of you. That might

1246
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 3: seem a little esoteric for people, but you know, it

1247
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 3: could be going outside. And I had a guy a

1248
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 3: mentor that used to say, you know, go outside and

1249
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 3: get small, like look at everything else, get you know, uh,

1250
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 3: get off like perspective. Well yeah, and also get your

1251
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 3: vision wide angle. I mean, there's some exercises to be

1252
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 3: able to do where you can like take your thumbs

1253
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 3: and like literally just try to follow them as they

1254
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 3: come back and you know, our brain. Our our brain

1255
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 3: is like, what is it forty percent visual or something

1256
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 3: like that, Like that can start to even give us

1257
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 3: perspective there, or.

1258
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,919
Speaker 2: You know, talking to a friend, talking to a mentor

1259
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 2: or a therapist.

1260
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 4: You know.

1261
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 2: A few years ago, something was going on.

1262
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 3: It was with my my therapist and she's she's this

1263
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 3: like old school psychoanalyst and like kind of no bullshit,

1264
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 3: and something had happened and I was I was like,

1265
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 3: I was telling her I was angry, and she was like,

1266
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 3: I said it, and she's like, well, I told her

1267
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 3: what was going on. She goes, well, that makes sense.

1268
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 3: You're angry, Like I think probably most people would be

1269
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 3: angry about this. And I said, yeah, well, but I

1270
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 3: don't like the way I'm acting. I'm not being I

1271
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 3: wasn't being nice and I was really beating myself up

1272
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 3: for this, you know, and she goes Ryan, most people

1273
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 3: when they're angry, they're not nice. And I was like, like,

1274
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 3: that didn't mean that I didn't need to intervene on

1275
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 3: some of those behaviors. But it was like, oh, okay,

1276
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 3: this makes this makes sense. Yeah I can look at

1277
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 3: it and do something with it. But being able to

1278
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 3: get that perspective, you know, I, you know I, And

1279
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 3: I think it's also important to have good perspective and

1280
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 3: have people in relationship with people that know you, whether

1281
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 3: that's a therapist or a coach, but also just friends

1282
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 3: that understand what's important to you. I don't mind sharing this,

1283
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 3: but like one of my mentors, like he knows what's

1284
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 3: important to me in my marriage and with my children,

1285
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 3: and you know, and I could call them and be like,

1286
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 3: forgive me, Stephanie, but like because I'm sure she gets

1287
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 3: like this with me, but you know, like I can't

1288
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 3: believe she's doing this, and I'm starting to like, you know,

1289
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 3: maybe I'm not that dramatic, And he'll just stop me

1290
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 3: and go, do you lover? And he knows I do,

1291
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 3: and I'm like yeah, and he's like all right, and

1292
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 3: he takes a breath and nothing else matters after that.

1293
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, Like I can let most of the stuff.

1294
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 3: Was like, if we've had a fight or an argument

1295
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 3: a week later, I can never even remember what it

1296
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 3: was so how important was it? But in that moment

1297
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 3: it can be like the whole universe.

1298
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1299
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: I remember someone told me in a similar situation, do

1300
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: you want to be right? Or do you want to

1301
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 1: be happy?

1302
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I think I'm more I'm far more

1303
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 3: addicted to being right than I was alcohol or drugs like.

1304
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 1: That might be the most common addiction in the world.

1305
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 1: So back to addiction. Do you think people can be

1306
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: addicted to something that otherwise was publicly seen as healthy,

1307
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: like exercise?

1308
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 3: Well, this goes back again to that question, you know,

1309
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 3: depending on how we addiction. Yes, I think it can

1310
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 3: can people if we if we rephrase your question to

1311
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 3: be something like, can people be harmed or you know,

1312
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 3: can their lives be affected negatively by their relationship with

1313
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 3: things that everybody sees as healthy? If if it's like,

1314
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:26,479
Speaker 3: of course people we should we should exercise, we should

1315
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 3: eat right, But if you're doing that at the expense

1316
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 3: of enjoying your life or the expense of the people

1317
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 3: you're in relationships, or if you can't exercise today it

1318
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 3: you know, you're a miserable person, then there's something to

1319
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 3: look at there.

1320
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 2: Does that mean that it's addiction in the way that

1321
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 2: someone's addicted to heroin? You know, probably not.

1322
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 3: But it goes back to throw saying most men lead

1323
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 3: lives of quiet desperation, Like Okay, what is it blocking

1324
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 3: you from Yeah.

1325
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 1: Here's an extreme example. The Wall Street Journal, and this

1326
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: was years ago. They ran a story about men who

1327
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: got so into triathlons like Iron Man's, which requires hours

1328
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 1: and hours of training a week, that these guys would

1329
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 1: work all day and then they'd get home and they'd

1330
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: go out for like a four hour bike ride. Meanwhile,

1331
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 1: they're not seeing their family at all. And it interviewed

1332
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 1: a lot of the wives that are like, I never

1333
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 1: see my husband because they want to do this iron

1334
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 1: Man and I'm having to take on all this work.

1335
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 1: And even the men were like, I just have to

1336
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 1: do the Iron Man. I want to see my fan,

1337
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: but I got to do the Iron Man and train.

1338
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 1: And so I think it's like, what are you giving

1339
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 1: up by that? And to your point, what's the underlying

1340
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 1: reason you're doing the thing? It can anything can become

1341
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 1: an escape anything. Yeah, yeah, of course. And and that

1342
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you have to stop doing those things either.

1343
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: It's like how do you find balance?

1344
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1345
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 3: Know, and people tend to not maybe it's not all people,

1346
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 3: but maybe the subset of people that are coming for

1347
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 3: help or the people that I'm around, but they tend

1348
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 3: to be like all like very binary.

1349
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,120
Speaker 2: It's like I got to be all into this or

1350
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 2: all out of it.

1351
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 3: And that's just not It's not black or white like

1352
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 3: life is in the life is in the gray.

1353
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1354
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 3: So first off, you know, why why am I doing

1355
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 3: the triathlon? And and and you don't even have to

1356
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 3: have a big reason to do it. But what's this

1357
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 3: need that I have? This what you're describing is like

1358
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 3: a compulsion. And I think that's where the challenge was.

1359
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 3: And this can go back to, you know, anything like

1360
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 3: how are we using it and what are we using

1361
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 3: it for? We were talking last night, like you know, we've

1362
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 3: got the opioids that people are abusing. You know, we've

1363
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,440
Speaker 3: got heroin, We've got opium that's started. I mean, this

1364
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:50,800
Speaker 3: is this is not a new problem, by the way.

1365
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 3: I mean opium dens have been around for a long time,

1366
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 3: very long time. It was also very legal. It was

1367
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 3: the Bear Heroin company. It was like take heroin for

1368
01:05:58,240 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 3: a stomach ache, you know, like.

1369
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 1: Coca Colas has the word cocon.

1370
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 3: So you know. But then there's the other side where

1371
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 3: we've been able to make medicines from it that that

1372
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 3: help people have surgeries during pain. I think there's an

1373
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 3: argument that we've made that more people have been able

1374
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 3: to like lengthen their life and survive things because of opioids. Yeah, totally,

1375
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 3: both directions, and then we trace it back. It all

1376
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 3: came from a poppy, which was a flower. So it's

1377
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 3: just a flower. How do we manipulate it to make

1378
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 3: the compounds? And then how are we using it? Or

1379
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 3: as the greatest philosophever Homer Simpson said, beer the cause

1380
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 3: of and solution to all the world's problems.

1381
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 2: Totally, what are you using it for?

1382
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:44,919
Speaker 4: Right?

1383
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 3: And this is where it's hard because sometimes people aren't

1384
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,000
Speaker 3: They don't see that yet, and it takes a level

1385
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 3: of honesty and reflection to be able to do that.

1386
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 3: But also people are you know, these are the strategies

1387
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 3: that they've developed to survive, whether they are realize it

1388
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 3: or not. They might not be thinking I'm going to

1389
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:04,560
Speaker 3: die if I don't do a triathlon, but if someone's thinking, like,

1390
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 3: if I don't do this thing, I'm not going to

1391
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 3: be okay. Right, I'm not going to be okay? Is

1392
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 3: in the direction of I'm going to die? Yeah, It's

1393
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 3: like almost all anxiety is a death anxiety.

1394
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 1: Right, what you said about the Wonderful Homes quote. It

1395
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 1: reminds me of that. We had this guy, Dean Staateman

1396
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: on recently and he wrote this piece for GQ about

1397
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: how his New Year's resolution was to drink more because

1398
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: he'd done you know, he'd listened to too many hell podcasts,

1399
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 1: read too many stories, and stopped drinking.

1400
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 3: I listened to it. I love what you said. His

1401
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 3: goal was to get on the way. No, maybe it

1402
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 3: was to fall off the fall off the y.

1403
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:47,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1404
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 1: So he was a moderate drinker though, and so he

1405
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 1: goes sober for I think it was three or four months,

1406
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,240
Speaker 1: and he realized that his life got worse because he

1407
01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 1: wasn't going out and socializing, and so we started to

1408
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 1: drink again. And again he's a moderate drinker. I think

1409
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 1: that is the key. And he realized, oh, like, this

1410
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 1: is helping me be social, It's putting me in situations

1411
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 1: that are enhancing my life. Alcohol for me is ultimately

1412
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 1: something that overall, big picture improves my life. Yes, he

1413
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 1: could be like, oh if I have a beer, my

1414
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: whip score goes down five points whatever, but he goes overall,

1415
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 1: I think this is a good thing for me.

1416
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:27,760
Speaker 4: What are your thoughts on that.

1417
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 3: I mean, listen, we see people now we're in continuous

1418
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 3: glucose monitors, right, which is they many of them probably

1419
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 3: aren't diabetic. They're managing they want but they're they're doing

1420
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 3: this for a reason that they want to see what

1421
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 3: they're I mean, I don't know why everybody's doing it,

1422
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 3: but I think generally it's to see how certain food

1423
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 3: infects that infects them affects them. I guess some food

1424
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 3: can infect you, but see how some food affects them

1425
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:58,120
Speaker 3: and optimizing their their health in some way. So but

1426
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 3: if they're not diabetic and they're doing that, like, okay,

1427
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 3: they can they could probably have some dessert and see

1428
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 3: it go up and it's not gonna impact them.

1429
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 2: And I know not all diabetics can't have dessert.

1430
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 3: But if you're diabetic, on the other hand, and your

1431
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:14,600
Speaker 3: insulin is out your blood sugar's out of control, and

1432
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 3: you haven't been able to manage your insulin and you're

1433
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:18,920
Speaker 3: eating a pint of ice cream every night, I mean,

1434
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 3: those are two very different things. Where the person that's

1435
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 3: trying to optimize their health, like if all their friends

1436
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 3: are going out for ice cream and their kids are

1437
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 3: with them, and they want to have ice cream to

1438
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:31,479
Speaker 3: enjoy it. Then they all be by all means go

1439
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 3: do it.

1440
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1441
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's the exact correlation, but you know,

1442
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:39,680
Speaker 3: I think for even in some of the writings in

1443
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:41,720
Speaker 3: the in Alcoholics, Anonymous and I can talk about from

1444
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 3: like an academic perspective, you know, they they don't say

1445
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 3: this is what you have to do.

1446
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 2: They say, you know, we don't have a monopoly on this.

1447
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 3: If you, if you, if you don't think you're an alcoholic,

1448
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 3: go out and try some control drinking.

1449
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:55,440
Speaker 2: If you can do it, our hats are off to you.

1450
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 3: You know that. You know that for most people, it says,

1451
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:03,200
Speaker 3: you know, drink means conviviality, released from boredom and fear,

1452
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 3: and it's adding to their life. You know, And what

1453
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 3: is alcohol? Even like it's called spirits right, raises people's spirits,

1454
01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 3: lowers or ambitions of doing that for years. If it's

1455
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:17,879
Speaker 3: something that's a problem for you, then it's a problem

1456
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:19,599
Speaker 3: for you, and it's not doing that.

1457
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:21,639
Speaker 2: I reached a point. Sounds like you reached a point.

1458
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 3: A lot of other people I know reached a point

1459
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:26,440
Speaker 3: where it wasn't helping anymore. In fact, it was making it,

1460
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:29,040
Speaker 3: it was making it worse. But I also know in

1461
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:31,559
Speaker 3: my history, I believe I had a spiritual relationship with

1462
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:37,400
Speaker 3: alcohol because we talk about a power greater than yourself,

1463
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:40,160
Speaker 3: Like I was.

1464
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:42,639
Speaker 2: Turning to alcohol as a power greater than myself.

1465
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 3: It was the thing that I was using as like

1466
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 3: to raise my spirit to be okay. Like I could

1467
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,800
Speaker 3: literally be in a place where I wanted to I

1468
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 3: was suicidal, wasn't drinking, was like, I can't do this

1469
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:57,280
Speaker 3: life anymore. And then I would have some drinks and

1470
01:10:57,320 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 3: two hours later I'd be in a bar trying to

1471
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 3: convince some girl how great that was, Like it worked.

1472
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1473
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 1: I think people people who aren't familiar with people like us.

1474
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:12,120
Speaker 1: I guess I would say us people. Yeah, us people.

1475
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 4: Is that.

1476
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 1: The addictive behavior or substance, it immediately solves all your

1477
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 1: problems if you're having a shitty day, things are wrong,

1478
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:27,320
Speaker 1: Like I know, for me, at least, the best place

1479
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:30,120
Speaker 1: in the world is like a smoky bar that has

1480
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 1: a jukebox that plays George Shones and a bartender who

1481
01:11:33,479 --> 01:11:35,680
Speaker 1: is just like we'll keep lining them up and just

1482
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 1: you get in there, and I'm just like, everything is

1483
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 1: perfect with the world, no matter what is going on

1484
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 1: in my life. Eventually, though, that stops working. Although those

1485
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:48,799
Speaker 1: first handful of drinks, life is perfect in that moment,

1486
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 1: but then the cost of what happens afterwards start to

1487
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,599
Speaker 1: outweigh things, and you go, yes, I can still in

1488
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:57,600
Speaker 1: my mind go, if I were to go out and

1489
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,160
Speaker 1: drink right now, I can tell you my life, life

1490
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 1: would be fucking awesome those first four or five drinks.

1491
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:06,719
Speaker 1: But then it's like I get the idea, oh, maybe

1492
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 1: you can do this, and you keep doing and then

1493
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: you know five months later it's like, well, the bank's

1494
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 1: coming for the house, honey, I'm sorry.

1495
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 3: Well, and so for you, right, it's like, okay, you

1496
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 3: have a recognition and that statement that you know it

1497
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:22,600
Speaker 3: might be the eighth or tenth or twentieth drink that

1498
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:25,639
Speaker 3: does that, but you've said you don't have a governor

1499
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 3: on it that you can stop from getting there, or

1500
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 3: you can't predict. That's another part, like some people will

1501
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:33,799
Speaker 3: have this illusion of control, but if you can't predict

1502
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:35,400
Speaker 3: the times that you're going to have control, then you

1503
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:39,240
Speaker 3: really don't have control. So what you're describing is I

1504
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:42,599
Speaker 3: can't control once I start whether I'm going to get

1505
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:47,720
Speaker 3: to twelve or not. Yeah, So the solution is stay

1506
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 3: away from the first one. It's not the if you're

1507
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:51,760
Speaker 3: going to get hit by a train, it's not the

1508
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:54,640
Speaker 3: caboose that kills you, it's the engine. Yeah, it's the

1509
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:58,200
Speaker 3: first one, which is also a very freeing thing because

1510
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 3: four people that recognize that they don't have to not

1511
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 3: drink like all the alcohol. They just have to stay

1512
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 3: away from one. That's another thing, Like you just have

1513
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 3: to stay away from the first one. Yeah, the thing

1514
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:12,439
Speaker 3: that opens the door into the next, you know, into

1515
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 3: the like what's the what's the if it's our Comedi's lever, Like,

1516
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:20,800
Speaker 3: what's gonna get you your biggest results? Right? You know?

1517
01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 3: And same thing for not drinking, Like, Okay, I have

1518
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 3: to stay away from this one thing, but it's gonna

1519
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:29,640
Speaker 3: have it's a lever that's gonna impact the rest of

1520
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:32,679
Speaker 3: my life greatly. And I think it's not just around alcohol,

1521
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 3: it's not just around drugs. It's around whatever people identify.

1522
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 3: If that guy realizes or the guys in the I

1523
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 3: think you said it was a Wall Street Journal realized

1524
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 3: that their lives are falling apart because of these triathlons,

1525
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:47,479
Speaker 3: then maybe it's stopping the triathlon or doing it differently

1526
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:50,200
Speaker 3: or having a different viewpoint that you know, I'm a

1527
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 3: guy that's gonna enjoy triathlons.

1528
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 2: I'm never gonna like be the champion of the world.

1529
01:13:54,439 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 3: But so how do I how do I fit and

1530
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 3: get enjoyment out of life being.

1531
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:00,640
Speaker 2: Mediocre?

1532
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 3: Sometimes?

1533
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:01,879
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1534
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:05,839
Speaker 1: I think you know, I always I am somewhat grateful

1535
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 1: that if I'm going to pick a problem to have

1536
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 1: in this domain, that mine was alcohol because I can

1537
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 1: just not drink, right, that's very black or white, just

1538
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:20,680
Speaker 1: don't drink. But I always wonder with people who have

1539
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:25,760
Speaker 1: a problem with like food or these things that you

1540
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:28,519
Speaker 1: need to do in order to survive. Have you ever

1541
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 1: worked with people like that? Like, what the hell? How

1542
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 1: the hell does that even work?

1543
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's it's it's interesting with things we

1544
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 3: call them, like the process addictions a lot. But you know,

1545
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:46,479
Speaker 3: things that fit in there, like you know, food, so

1546
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 3: eating disorders or disorder eating, things around sex and love,

1547
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:52,679
Speaker 3: things around money or gambling.

1548
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 2: You know, there's other ones that fit in there, gaming.

1549
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:57,799
Speaker 3: Stuff like that, But like especially with anything around sex,

1550
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:00,760
Speaker 3: food and money, like you can't I mean, the sex

1551
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,320
Speaker 3: isn't always about I suppose people can live without sex,

1552
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:05,680
Speaker 3: but like a healthy intimate relationship is going to have that.

1553
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 2: But it's really not always about the sex.

1554
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:11,760
Speaker 3: It's about something, you know, the intimacy or connection or

1555
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:12,800
Speaker 3: not being able to get it.

1556
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 2: But those are things that we need.

1557
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 3: Like you said, you know, how hard would it be

1558
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:23,840
Speaker 3: for you if in order to cure your alcoholism you

1559
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 3: had to take a half a shot of whiskey every day?

1560
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:30,960
Speaker 3: It would be miserable, right, because you want a lot

1561
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:32,800
Speaker 3: more than a half a shot you take that.

1562
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, right.

1563
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:35,759
Speaker 1: I remember when I was trying, I wouldn't even drink.

1564
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 1: I was cognizant enough about my drinking that I would

1565
01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 1: never just have one. If it was a situation where

1566
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:47,400
Speaker 1: like I wasn't going to be able to have ten

1567
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:49,400
Speaker 1: many more, you know, I would just not not going

1568
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:51,719
Speaker 1: to be real because if you can just have one,

1569
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 1: if it was just one only once that one is done,

1570
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:57,759
Speaker 1: I'm like the most uncomfortable person.

1571
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:02,760
Speaker 4: I'm just like just so.

1572
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:04,760
Speaker 3: But I mean this is oversimplifying it, But I mean,

1573
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 3: like people have to eat, right, So, like if their

1574
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:11,000
Speaker 3: relationship is with food, which it's more than about the food.

1575
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:12,680
Speaker 3: It might for many people it's about like things that

1576
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:14,120
Speaker 3: we're out of control in their life, and this is

1577
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,479
Speaker 3: the area, the thing that they can they can control.

1578
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:19,679
Speaker 3: It's not like that forever. That's not the same for everybody.

1579
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:23,639
Speaker 3: But they have to be able to develop behaviors if

1580
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:24,720
Speaker 3: they in recovery.

1581
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:27,280
Speaker 2: What we have them do is develop behaviors that you know.

1582
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:30,599
Speaker 3: There's not like an abstinence model around that, right, right,

1583
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:32,880
Speaker 3: So some of the things in like sex addiction recovery,

1584
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:35,599
Speaker 3: they'll talk about like you know, kind of red light,

1585
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:38,760
Speaker 3: yellow light, green light behaviors, you know, and those are

1586
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:40,759
Speaker 3: going to be different for everybody. You have to define

1587
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:43,840
Speaker 3: what your sobriety is, you have to define what recovery is.

1588
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 3: And I think that's the same thing for things with

1589
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:48,439
Speaker 3: you know, eating and with money.

1590
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:51,040
Speaker 2: We were talking a lot about gambling yesterday.

1591
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:53,759
Speaker 3: Not everybody that gambles, I mean, we're in Las Vegas

1592
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:56,719
Speaker 3: going through the casinos would. I don't think the majority

1593
01:16:56,720 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 3: of that people we saw aren't like losing their houses

1594
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:02,240
Speaker 3: and their lives are falling apart. But there's a subset

1595
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:05,400
Speaker 3: of people that will that will and it's a actually

1596
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,559
Speaker 3: with that one is a very high suicide rate compared

1597
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:12,200
Speaker 3: to other addictions. It's a it's a very interesting one

1598
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:18,439
Speaker 3: to me because like it's the next hit can solve

1599
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:19,360
Speaker 3: all your problems.

1600
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:22,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a really unique aspect of it.

1601
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:24,439
Speaker 1: Like for me, it's not like if I could go,

1602
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:28,960
Speaker 1: oh maybe if I take the tenth drink, everything in

1603
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 1: my life is just gonna change immediately.

1604
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:32,519
Speaker 4: Right yea?

1605
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:35,680
Speaker 3: Or or you're like, I know this isn't you know,

1606
01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:37,639
Speaker 3: if someone's going to the crackhouse, they're not like thinking

1607
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:39,120
Speaker 3: this is going to change my life forever. They know

1608
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:40,960
Speaker 3: it's going to change their life right then, right that,

1609
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:43,400
Speaker 3: and they're not really looking at that you know, long

1610
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 3: term thing. But you know people I have people like that,

1611
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:48,960
Speaker 3: he's you know, he's one hundred thousand dollars in debt.

1612
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:51,080
Speaker 3: And when I talk to the often talk to the

1613
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 3: person that's one hundred thousand dollars in debt and gambling,

1614
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:55,400
Speaker 3: it's not it's not even real money. It's like a

1615
01:17:56,479 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 3: like that's just one bet, and then it sometimes a.

1616
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 1: Week later they're like, hey, swings or swings, I'm up

1617
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 1: two hundred grand.

1618
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:10,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and so you know the next thing can

1619
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:12,960
Speaker 3: solve all their problem, it's not actually solving all their

1620
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,200
Speaker 3: problems because there's probably something underneath that that's that's driving them,

1621
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 3: but you know it. It also then when they do

1622
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:21,760
Speaker 3: lose everything, it can have like your whole world like

1623
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:25,960
Speaker 3: kind of collapse on it. And you know, I've you know,

1624
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:28,599
Speaker 3: with somebody like that, they might find that they have

1625
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:32,640
Speaker 3: to stay completely abstinate from that part, but also recognize

1626
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:35,519
Speaker 3: that other areas of life that might trigger that. I mean,

1627
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:38,680
Speaker 3: you drive down the road, you see what the lottery is,

1628
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 3: you know, you investing in stocks or in crypto or

1629
01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:45,080
Speaker 3: anything like that. I mean, people can approach that in

1630
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:48,120
Speaker 3: a way that's like a like like like gambling.

1631
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:52,960
Speaker 1: Do you do you find that when people stop with

1632
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:58,800
Speaker 1: one addiction, it can transfer over to something else kind

1633
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 1: of like you just mentioned, maybe not even in the

1634
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:03,960
Speaker 1: exact same domain, because you know, gambling and if you're

1635
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:07,439
Speaker 1: doing daily crypto trading that feels similar. Would you ever

1636
01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:10,559
Speaker 1: find that like if someone gets sober from alcohol or

1637
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:14,640
Speaker 1: heroin or whatever it is, that then they pick up

1638
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:18,439
Speaker 1: something totally different, like whether it be exercise or whether

1639
01:19:18,479 --> 01:19:20,639
Speaker 1: it be I don't know, something else.

1640
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:23,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think it's not like a thing

1641
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:27,200
Speaker 3: that like it moves over to something else right away.

1642
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 2: I think it's that.

1643
01:19:29,200 --> 01:19:32,599
Speaker 1: I think the question is do you believe there's addictive

1644
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:33,760
Speaker 1: personalities or not?

1645
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:42,879
Speaker 3: Yes, you know, it's not a clinical definition or anything

1646
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:43,200
Speaker 3: like that.

1647
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:43,960
Speaker 2: But I think.

1648
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:47,840
Speaker 3: People who tend to be thrown to that or shaped

1649
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:50,400
Speaker 3: in that way, it's like they've got some sort of

1650
01:19:50,439 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 3: anngst discomfort energy that they don't know.

1651
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:56,600
Speaker 4: How to deal.

1652
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:58,680
Speaker 3: With necessarily, right, I mean, and I think we've got

1653
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:00,680
Speaker 3: more of that than ever you write about that extensively.

1654
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:02,680
Speaker 3: We used to walk what was it, ten miles a

1655
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 3: day and carry stuff. We don't do that, you know,

1656
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:06,880
Speaker 3: we we.

1657
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:07,920
Speaker 4: Were more not expending that energy.

1658
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:10,599
Speaker 2: We're not expending that somewhere. It's got to go somewhere.

1659
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:12,800
Speaker 3: And if we looked at it from the perspective of,

1660
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:15,320
Speaker 3: at some point, for someone who recognizes that they've got

1661
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:17,599
Speaker 3: an addiction, if it's a substance use that they're using

1662
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,200
Speaker 3: it as a medicine, If you haven't really addressed the

1663
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:23,719
Speaker 3: underlying issue in this case might be the underlying angster

1664
01:20:23,960 --> 01:20:27,200
Speaker 3: kind of existential view of yourself in the world, then

1665
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 3: you might start finding other things to to medicate.

1666
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:34,320
Speaker 2: You that, right, and then you know that can have.

1667
01:20:34,360 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 3: Its own uh, it can build it's it's it's its

1668
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:41,479
Speaker 3: own momentum, you know, especially if it's something that's you know,

1669
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:45,960
Speaker 3: really fun to do right or makes it easy to

1670
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 3: win money or you know, I I recognize this. I

1671
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:54,320
Speaker 3: don't have a a I've never had an issue with gambling,

1672
01:20:54,360 --> 01:21:00,240
Speaker 3: although I see that I probably could if I don't. Yeah,

1673
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:02,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I'll go, you know, I'll do some fun

1674
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 3: stuff every once in a while, you know, with the

1675
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:07,040
Speaker 3: super Bowl or whatever. But here's one thing I reckon.

1676
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:09,040
Speaker 3: I'll be driving down the road and for me, like

1677
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:11,920
Speaker 3: anytime I'm under any sort of stress, like my my

1678
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:14,880
Speaker 3: focus and I know this about myself will go toward money.

1679
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:16,720
Speaker 3: It's like something I feel like I could control. And

1680
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:19,519
Speaker 3: the money's never almost never the issue in it. And

1681
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:22,760
Speaker 3: I know this because regardless of whether there's a bunch

1682
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:24,719
Speaker 3: of money in the bank or no money in the bank,

1683
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:26,760
Speaker 3: it can it's the it's the same thing. So it

1684
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:29,360
Speaker 3: can't be about the money. But if I'm driving down

1685
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:31,640
Speaker 3: the road and I see the power ball at like

1686
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:36,240
Speaker 3: a billion dollars, yeah, and I start thinking about it,

1687
01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:40,880
Speaker 3: like I can actually feel in my body, Yeah, this

1688
01:21:41,080 --> 01:21:43,760
Speaker 3: sense of like I'm fantasizing about it, and I'm like

1689
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:44,799
Speaker 3: holy cow.

1690
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:46,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to get a yacht. I'm going to get

1691
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:49,639
Speaker 1: at what you start, like, yeah.

1692
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:53,400
Speaker 3: Right, and and that's that's very I start thinking first, Michael,

1693
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:55,200
Speaker 3: about all the good that I'm going to do in

1694
01:21:55,240 --> 01:21:57,360
Speaker 3: the world and the foundations I'm going to start, and

1695
01:21:57,360 --> 01:21:58,240
Speaker 3: then I'll buy a yacht.

1696
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:01,960
Speaker 4: You can come hang out on my yacht. Took a

1697
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:03,719
Speaker 4: couple of bucks to your foundations too.

1698
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:06,639
Speaker 2: I'm justifying it already inside of me. I like, I'm

1699
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:07,640
Speaker 2: a manipulator.

1700
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:10,360
Speaker 3: But you know, so if I'm doing that, just like

1701
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:13,200
Speaker 3: recognizing that just kind of driving by something. I used

1702
01:22:13,200 --> 01:22:16,960
Speaker 3: to actually do this meditation with these young guys that

1703
01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:18,559
Speaker 3: I had in these groups.

1704
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:21,680
Speaker 2: And I remember I were most of.

1705
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:23,120
Speaker 3: The guys are like in their twenties, and they were

1706
01:22:23,200 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 3: kind of oriented towards making money and stuff, and that

1707
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:26,559
Speaker 3: all of these guys were in this was in a

1708
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:28,720
Speaker 3: treatment center. And I have them closed their eyes and

1709
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 3: imagine that they woke up in the morning and there

1710
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:33,800
Speaker 3: was a billion dollars in their bank account, and like

1711
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 3: we I really walked them through it in their eyes

1712
01:22:36,160 --> 01:22:38,719
Speaker 3: closed and I had them open their eyes and explain

1713
01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:41,360
Speaker 3: what they were experiencing, and like, you know, my heart's opening,

1714
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 3: I feel bigger, like I feel this feels all, you know,

1715
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:46,080
Speaker 3: like the same thing like me seeing the you know,

1716
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:47,800
Speaker 3: I'm gonna buy this. Then I had him close their

1717
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:52,519
Speaker 3: eyes and guided him through something again and said, all

1718
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 3: right now, I want you to imagine that you wake

1719
01:22:55,120 --> 01:23:03,520
Speaker 3: up the next morning and half of it is gone.

1720
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:01,600
Speaker 2: And walk through that.

1721
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:05,080
Speaker 3: And and like they woke up, they were like, I'm upset,

1722
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:08,120
Speaker 3: I'm angry. Like they literally their whole demeanor had changed.

1723
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:10,439
Speaker 3: They still had five hundred million dollars, right and most

1724
01:23:10,479 --> 01:23:13,800
Speaker 3: of these guys had no thousands of dollars right like,

1725
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:18,360
Speaker 3: So it was like, you know, so the the I

1726
01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:22,120
Speaker 3: I you know, I don't remember where this was was

1727
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:25,240
Speaker 3: coming from, but this is like the transferring.

1728
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:29,240
Speaker 2: Like if we, you know, if we find something that we.

1729
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:32,640
Speaker 3: Think is going to give us that that kind of

1730
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:36,840
Speaker 3: sense of ease and comfort, well I think we'll go

1731
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:39,719
Speaker 3: after it, especially people that have kind of been thrown

1732
01:23:39,760 --> 01:23:41,240
Speaker 3: to that and in other.

1733
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:43,600
Speaker 2: Ways, Yeah, we look for distractions.

1734
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:47,120
Speaker 3: Michael Singer who wrote The Untethered Soul and Fever, and

1735
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:48,639
Speaker 3: he wrote The Surrender Experiment.

1736
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:49,280
Speaker 2: It's a great book.

1737
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:50,960
Speaker 3: I used to go to his place to Temple of

1738
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:54,200
Speaker 3: the universe, and it's it's outside of o'calla Florida in

1739
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:57,200
Speaker 3: the Latchua. And I'm not going to quote him exactly,

1740
01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:00,400
Speaker 3: but I remember used to say, like when we fall

1741
01:24:00,439 --> 01:24:02,040
Speaker 3: in love with somebody, he said something like this, when

1742
01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:05,880
Speaker 3: we fall in love with somebody, No, it's we're like

1743
01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:10,080
Speaker 3: we assign like our okayness or this feeling that we're

1744
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:12,840
Speaker 3: getting to that person. And he would describe what's really

1745
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:17,400
Speaker 3: happening is like they're enough of a distraction. Like he

1746
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:19,800
Speaker 3: would say that in the kind of from a Yogic perspective,

1747
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:23,599
Speaker 3: like we have this where we generate this like endless

1748
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:27,760
Speaker 3: love joy like within us, and that that's been like

1749
01:24:28,520 --> 01:24:31,800
Speaker 3: clogged in some way, and this person that we meet

1750
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:34,799
Speaker 3: is like enough of a distraction for us to actually

1751
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:40,320
Speaker 3: fall in love with ourselves. That's interesting, and but we

1752
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:43,599
Speaker 3: assign it to them. So now we're leaning on them.

1753
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:46,559
Speaker 3: And so you know, three months later, when they you know,

1754
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 3: chew their food a certain way that you don't like,

1755
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:50,640
Speaker 3: or they fart in bed or whatever whatever it is,

1756
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:53,720
Speaker 3: or they're they're not doing the thing that you think

1757
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:57,160
Speaker 3: they should be doing anymore, that now we assign that

1758
01:24:57,200 --> 01:25:02,040
Speaker 3: to you know, the misery to them. And his argument

1759
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:05,000
Speaker 3: wasn't to not be in relationships, but it was more

1760
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:07,519
Speaker 3: And another example used to like you could be someone

1761
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:10,919
Speaker 3: could be like miserable in their job, you know, unhappy

1762
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:13,240
Speaker 3: where they live, they don't like them, and then they

1763
01:25:13,240 --> 01:25:15,519
Speaker 3: meet her or they meet him and like everything's okay

1764
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:18,480
Speaker 3: for a period of time. It was like this distraction

1765
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 3: to experience what flows within me. And I think his

1766
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:27,080
Speaker 3: argument wasn't to not get in relationships, but it was

1767
01:25:27,120 --> 01:25:30,200
Speaker 3: to be able to really like clear out these In

1768
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:33,920
Speaker 3: alcoholics anonomus latters will talk about like these channels that

1769
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:37,240
Speaker 3: are filled with fear, frustration, anger. From a Yogic perspective,

1770
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:39,760
Speaker 3: they'll talk about us being like a tube a shashumna,

1771
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:43,479
Speaker 3: and we have these these experiences in life that kind

1772
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:46,320
Speaker 3: of they call natties, that kind of block the energy.

1773
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:51,040
Speaker 3: In psychological terms, we call them traumas or stressors. Right,

1774
01:25:51,560 --> 01:25:54,439
Speaker 3: they would call them some scars like scars, and be

1775
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:57,240
Speaker 3: able to clear that out so that we can experience

1776
01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:02,600
Speaker 3: the energy that we're generating and then share that with

1777
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:04,280
Speaker 3: this might. I'm sorry if this is sounding a little

1778
01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:06,639
Speaker 3: bit too like out there, but like fall in love

1779
01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 3: with myself in a way that now I can share

1780
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:11,519
Speaker 3: that with you. I'm not falling.

1781
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:14,200
Speaker 2: Maybe I am, but it's okay.

1782
01:26:14,240 --> 01:26:14,639
Speaker 4: It happens.

1783
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:15,880
Speaker 2: We can do that, but we're sober.

1784
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:16,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, but.

1785
01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:21,840
Speaker 3: Now I'm sharing that rather than taking that. You know

1786
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:24,479
Speaker 3: that I'm okay with falling in love with yourself? What

1787
01:26:24,479 --> 01:26:26,639
Speaker 3: does that mean? Like whatever it means to the person,

1788
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:29,280
Speaker 3: But like I'm okay as I as I am. Yeah,

1789
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:31,680
Speaker 3: And now I can go share that with others rather

1790
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 3: than I need you, I need this thing. I need

1791
01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:36,439
Speaker 3: this substance in order to just be out.

1792
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:39,800
Speaker 1: You've got your own foundation rather than using right someone

1793
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:43,599
Speaker 1: or something else's Yeah, what are your thoughts on social media?

1794
01:26:43,880 --> 01:26:50,400
Speaker 4: And that is a behavior is a cause a lot

1795
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:52,519
Speaker 4: of problem? Is it? Or is it? Just like we

1796
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:54,720
Speaker 4: talked about with alcohol. It depends on how you're using it?

1797
01:26:55,320 --> 01:26:57,560
Speaker 3: Does my Does the answer that I give depend on

1798
01:26:57,640 --> 01:26:59,920
Speaker 3: how many followers I'll gain from this podcast?

1799
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:03,200
Speaker 4: Uh, let's do two takes.

1800
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:07,280
Speaker 5: We'll see what happens. We'll do an A B test

1801
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:14,040
Speaker 5: and see what what what goes? Because you know, I

1802
01:27:14,160 --> 01:27:17,000
Speaker 5: won't be okay if I don't get X.

1803
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:23,840
Speaker 3: You know, I think this is a This is an

1804
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:26,360
Speaker 3: interesting topic and probably.

1805
01:27:27,520 --> 01:27:31,080
Speaker 2: There's a lot of opinions on it strong ones, very

1806
01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:31,720
Speaker 2: strong ones.

1807
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:36,960
Speaker 3: Do I think that I think like anything else or

1808
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:41,320
Speaker 3: some kind of going back to the the poppy like

1809
01:27:42,360 --> 01:27:46,720
Speaker 3: what it on one hand, what it's created is pretty incredible.

1810
01:27:47,680 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 3: Like I wouldn't have been able to go to the

1811
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:52,280
Speaker 3: probably the Fish Show with you last night and have

1812
01:27:52,360 --> 01:27:54,599
Speaker 3: a good time if there wasn't social media and we'd

1813
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:58,280
Speaker 3: met inst on Instagram after you know, I was on

1814
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:01,479
Speaker 3: Andrews podcast and then you were going on it, right, So,

1815
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:04,400
Speaker 3: like I've met people all over the world, you know,

1816
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:07,639
Speaker 3: I've got this this this kid who found me who

1817
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:13,639
Speaker 3: literally lived lives in India when he and he asked

1818
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:15,080
Speaker 3: me for help, and so I'll meet with him like

1819
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:18,920
Speaker 3: once a month. And when he turns on his screen,

1820
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:20,920
Speaker 3: it literally looks like he's in It looks like the

1821
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:24,680
Speaker 3: backdrop is like slum Dog Millionaire, right, Like I never

1822
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:26,760
Speaker 3: would have had this connection with him. I've had the

1823
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:29,760
Speaker 3: therapists in Nigeria reach out to me to talk about

1824
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:34,559
Speaker 3: what they're doing with addiction. I made these really cool connections.

1825
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:37,760
Speaker 3: I've been able to reconnect with friends from from his

1826
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:42,800
Speaker 3: I think, you know, the what the positives to it

1827
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:48,599
Speaker 3: are extremely positive? Now, is there a dark CD side

1828
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:50,320
Speaker 3: of it. I'm sure that you know these are for

1829
01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:53,560
Speaker 3: profit companies there of course they want you using it.

1830
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:57,679
Speaker 3: Are there things that people are distracting them to themselves

1831
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 3: with one hundred percent? Are they helping to create that?

1832
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:06,360
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I think there's it is

1833
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 3: something that's very compelling and people can use to completely

1834
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:13,479
Speaker 3: distract themselves.

1835
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:19,920
Speaker 2: But I think is it creating the problem? I don't

1836
01:29:19,960 --> 01:29:21,360
Speaker 2: know that it created the problem.

1837
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:24,559
Speaker 3: I think it exacerbates whatever problems we're having if people

1838
01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:26,920
Speaker 3: are using it in a way that's not the beneficial

1839
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:29,479
Speaker 3: way we talked about. And what I mean by that

1840
01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:34,200
Speaker 3: is there's this quote I like from Pascal, the mathematician,

1841
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:36,400
Speaker 3: kind of a heavy thinker of his time. He was

1842
01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:38,720
Speaker 3: like in the sixteen hundreds, and he said all of

1843
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:42,000
Speaker 3: humanity's problems stemmed from man's inability to sit alone in

1844
01:29:42,080 --> 01:29:46,040
Speaker 3: a room by himself. There was no social media then,

1845
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:52,679
Speaker 3: right undred sixteen hundreds. You go back to the Yoga Sutras,

1846
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:54,599
Speaker 3: which is like this old yoga text. And I really

1847
01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:56,200
Speaker 3: think a lot of the old yogis they were almost

1848
01:29:56,240 --> 01:29:58,160
Speaker 3: like and I've talked to neuroscientists about this, or they're

1849
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:01,439
Speaker 3: like neuroscientists without studying the brain. I mean, they really

1850
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:04,120
Speaker 3: talked about. The things that they talked about were really

1851
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:08,840
Speaker 3: like neuropathways and understanding how we responded to things. But

1852
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:11,120
Speaker 3: in this document that's anywhere from twenty five hundred to

1853
01:30:11,160 --> 01:30:12,120
Speaker 3: four thousand years old.

1854
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:15,400
Speaker 2: He said, it starts off saying the purpose.

1855
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:18,679
Speaker 3: For yoga is now. So what is yoga? It was union?

1856
01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:20,640
Speaker 3: So he's saying the purpose for union is now, and

1857
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:23,400
Speaker 3: this is kind of like union of mind, body, spirit. Well,

1858
01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:25,880
Speaker 3: if the time or sorry, the time, the purpose of

1859
01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:29,000
Speaker 3: the time for union is now. If the time for

1860
01:30:29,160 --> 01:30:32,080
Speaker 3: union is now, that must mean that you're in disunion.

1861
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:35,080
Speaker 3: You wouldn't need union if you weren't in disunion. Right,

1862
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:39,320
Speaker 3: So they're already saying four thousand years ago, we're in

1863
01:30:39,439 --> 01:30:41,639
Speaker 3: some sort of disunion, and then went on to say

1864
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:44,680
Speaker 3: that the purpose of it is to still the fluctuations

1865
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:47,840
Speaker 3: of the mind. And the fluctuations of the mind. There's

1866
01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:50,320
Speaker 3: five I'm going to give. The first four are right thinking,

1867
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:54,720
Speaker 3: wrong thinking, imagination, and memory. Right thinking and wrong thinking

1868
01:30:54,840 --> 01:30:56,680
Speaker 3: is like everything we know or don't know. What we

1869
01:30:57,840 --> 01:30:59,680
Speaker 3: know that we know, what we know that we don't know.

1870
01:30:59,800 --> 01:31:02,400
Speaker 3: All of that stuff that's kind of like our ego development,

1871
01:31:02,479 --> 01:31:06,360
Speaker 3: how we're seeing the world, our memory, everything from our history.

1872
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:09,120
Speaker 3: That that kind of programs how we see an event,

1873
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:11,679
Speaker 3: and you know, we're all going to see events differently.

1874
01:31:12,520 --> 01:31:16,360
Speaker 3: Your lawyers will tell you that eyewitness testimony is the worst,

1875
01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:18,599
Speaker 3: especially if you have more than one eyewitness, because they

1876
01:31:18,640 --> 01:31:22,200
Speaker 3: can all see a completely different thing. And then our

1877
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:25,719
Speaker 3: memory everything that we're making up. So they're talking about

1878
01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:28,080
Speaker 3: this four thousand years ago, This is not a social

1879
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:31,679
Speaker 3: media problem. And what were people using to distract themselves

1880
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:34,680
Speaker 3: throughout history? I think in some ways they didn't need

1881
01:31:34,800 --> 01:31:37,479
Speaker 3: to distract themselves at certain points because they were just

1882
01:31:37,800 --> 01:31:41,639
Speaker 3: working on the farm all day. I'm not suggesting that's

1883
01:31:41,680 --> 01:31:47,759
Speaker 3: what we go back to, but I often wonder because

1884
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:50,920
Speaker 3: of this if social media, which I think has its

1885
01:31:50,960 --> 01:31:54,400
Speaker 3: own problems and challenges. And I'm a dad of an

1886
01:31:54,439 --> 01:31:56,240
Speaker 3: eighteen year old, a seven year old and a four

1887
01:31:56,320 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 3: year old, and I don't, you know, I don't think

1888
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:02,200
Speaker 3: that they should like my seven and four year old

1889
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:09,280
Speaker 3: shouldn't be out there, you know, whatever, whatever, But but

1890
01:32:10,400 --> 01:32:14,120
Speaker 3: is it sometimes the scapegoat? And I'm not saying this

1891
01:32:14,240 --> 01:32:16,679
Speaker 3: to I'm not being this is I'm not a spokesman

1892
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:19,160
Speaker 3: for Meta. You know, like, I'm not saying that there

1893
01:32:19,200 --> 01:32:22,920
Speaker 3: aren't those challenges, but is there something else that we're

1894
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:25,280
Speaker 3: not dealing with? And this becomes the thing that, oh,

1895
01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:27,040
Speaker 3: we have to we have to fix this, and it

1896
01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:29,600
Speaker 3: becomes this thing that it's not going anywhere. Right, So

1897
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:32,240
Speaker 3: now we're trying to control something that in many ways

1898
01:32:32,280 --> 01:32:35,120
Speaker 3: we can't control or is so big, and it sets

1899
01:32:35,200 --> 01:32:38,240
Speaker 3: up this like trap that we're never going to get

1900
01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:40,320
Speaker 3: out of this. You know, I don't know that it's

1901
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:42,160
Speaker 3: the kids on the screens. It might be the parents

1902
01:32:42,200 --> 01:32:45,960
Speaker 3: on the screens, and how are they distracted, you know, and.

1903
01:32:46,160 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 4: What are they not take using that time for especially

1904
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:50,719
Speaker 4: with their kids.

1905
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:53,439
Speaker 3: Right, and and and then it lends this thing like Okay,

1906
01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:56,160
Speaker 3: and I'm a gen X person, right, you know, I

1907
01:32:56,640 --> 01:32:58,559
Speaker 3: grew up in that that we didn't have any sort

1908
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:01,600
Speaker 3: of trackers or you know, my parents until I was

1909
01:33:01,680 --> 01:33:04,160
Speaker 3: like an hour late, they weren't worried at all, or

1910
01:33:04,200 --> 01:33:06,040
Speaker 3: maybe even two hours later. We were talking last night.

1911
01:33:06,080 --> 01:33:07,880
Speaker 3: There was the stuff on the news. They used to

1912
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:10,080
Speaker 3: literally say, it's ten o'clock to you or your children,

1913
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:12,840
Speaker 3: which is funny. They had to mind parents that they

1914
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:17,400
Speaker 3: had kids now it's like your phone has a tracker

1915
01:33:17,479 --> 01:33:19,840
Speaker 3: on it, and if they're not where they are right away,

1916
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:24,280
Speaker 3: it's like creating this level of anxiety and emergency. And

1917
01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:27,840
Speaker 3: it's very easy for me to think, like, Okay, my

1918
01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:31,479
Speaker 3: generation was better than this, not not better generation, but

1919
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:33,200
Speaker 3: the way that we grew up was better than the

1920
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:38,439
Speaker 3: way that they were. Maybe true, but maybe not, maybe not,

1921
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:42,720
Speaker 3: And that's not going to happen. And so I think

1922
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:45,880
Speaker 3: as parents we can it can be easy to try

1923
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:49,120
Speaker 3: to get our kids to understand and live in the

1924
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:53,200
Speaker 3: world that we were in versus understanding the world that

1925
01:33:53,479 --> 01:33:56,840
Speaker 3: they're that that they're in, yeah, and understanding their world.

1926
01:33:57,120 --> 01:33:59,240
Speaker 3: And I don't know if this is answering your question

1927
01:33:59,320 --> 01:34:02,000
Speaker 3: around social media. I think it's a I just think

1928
01:34:02,040 --> 01:34:04,479
Speaker 3: there's more questions to be asked rather than saying this

1929
01:34:04,680 --> 01:34:06,560
Speaker 3: is the problem we need to get rid of. That

1930
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:09,679
Speaker 3: may be the case, right, we may need to moderate

1931
01:34:09,720 --> 01:34:10,720
Speaker 3: it in ways and.

1932
01:34:11,479 --> 01:34:15,240
Speaker 2: Shut it down for kids at certain ages.

1933
01:34:15,280 --> 01:34:17,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's definitely I know, there's definitely

1934
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:18,040
Speaker 3: predatory behavior.

1935
01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:18,800
Speaker 4: You know.

1936
01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:24,960
Speaker 3: It's just also like I don't we weren't we don't.

1937
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:28,960
Speaker 3: I don't think any of us have really come to

1938
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:32,400
Speaker 3: a place where we know how to handle it. Yet

1939
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:35,519
Speaker 3: I think it's still very clunky. It. I don't know

1940
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:37,960
Speaker 3: if it's social media, but just this ability to be

1941
01:34:38,560 --> 01:34:41,800
Speaker 3: connected to anyone in the world at any moment.

1942
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:43,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, and any piece of information ever.

1943
01:34:43,640 --> 01:34:47,320
Speaker 3: Right, we were like, we're not that far away from

1944
01:34:47,479 --> 01:34:52,479
Speaker 3: living in tribes that we like we didn't know what

1945
01:34:52,680 --> 01:34:56,559
Speaker 3: was happening more than a couple miles away. And it's

1946
01:34:56,600 --> 01:34:58,880
Speaker 3: really great. I mean, like I live in Florida. We

1947
01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:01,080
Speaker 3: get hurricanes back then, and like whenever they'd be like,

1948
01:35:01,080 --> 01:35:06,000
Speaker 3: oh it's going to rain today, they just get it

1949
01:35:06,040 --> 01:35:09,280
Speaker 3: coming off the coast of Africa. But you know, the

1950
01:35:09,560 --> 01:35:12,599
Speaker 3: downside of that is, like, you know, we we get

1951
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:16,080
Speaker 3: to we're very you know, I think many of the

1952
01:35:16,120 --> 01:35:19,200
Speaker 3: statue we live in a less violent, more peaceful time

1953
01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:21,439
Speaker 3: than any time in history, which doesn't seem like because

1954
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:22,920
Speaker 3: we see it all.

1955
01:35:23,479 --> 01:35:26,840
Speaker 1: Right, ninety percent of news is negative in general, and

1956
01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:30,479
Speaker 1: even and that's held from So this really started in

1957
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:35,120
Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties. I believe there's a guy named Benjamin Day,

1958
01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:39,200
Speaker 1: and before this, most newspapers in New York were covering

1959
01:35:39,320 --> 01:35:44,320
Speaker 1: like business, basic stuff, boring. He comes in and he

1960
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:47,599
Speaker 1: goes and they were making money off of subscriptions. He goes,

1961
01:35:48,520 --> 01:35:51,280
Speaker 1: I think I could make money off of attention, which

1962
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:54,880
Speaker 1: is all to say. I could get companies to put advertisements.

1963
01:35:55,720 --> 01:35:58,840
Speaker 1: And the more people I get to read my newspaper,

1964
01:35:59,400 --> 01:36:01,360
Speaker 1: the more I can charge for an ad spot. So

1965
01:36:01,479 --> 01:36:03,040
Speaker 1: then the question is, well, how do I get people

1966
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:09,320
Speaker 1: to read my newspaper? And he starts running stories about murder, suicides, dramas,

1967
01:36:09,479 --> 01:36:11,800
Speaker 1: all this shit, and it becomes the biggest newspaper in

1968
01:36:11,840 --> 01:36:14,640
Speaker 1: New York in about a year, and that's been the

1969
01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:20,160
Speaker 1: model ever since. It's like newspapers are not selling their news,

1970
01:36:20,240 --> 01:36:23,840
Speaker 1: they're selling advertisers to get people to look at. The

1971
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:25,800
Speaker 1: more readers you have, the more money you can make.

1972
01:36:26,280 --> 01:36:27,960
Speaker 1: And what do people focus on. It tends to be

1973
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:32,280
Speaker 1: negative stuff. And so that ninety percent rule has held

1974
01:36:32,479 --> 01:36:35,639
Speaker 1: even as the world has become safer and better by

1975
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:37,240
Speaker 1: every metric overall.

1976
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:44,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and people say, well, I'm going to

1977
01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:46,479
Speaker 3: addict it. We're addicted to ben. I think that's one

1978
01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:48,840
Speaker 3: hundred percent true. And it makes sense because it's more

1979
01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:50,800
Speaker 3: important for me to know where danger is than really

1980
01:36:50,840 --> 01:36:53,800
Speaker 3: where safety is. Yeah, it's more important for me to

1981
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:55,360
Speaker 3: know if you're coming at me with a knife than

1982
01:36:55,400 --> 01:36:59,400
Speaker 3: to hug me. Yeah, that part of our body is

1983
01:36:59,640 --> 01:37:03,120
Speaker 3: way more or powerful because it's its job and only job,

1984
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:04,000
Speaker 3: is to keep us alive.

1985
01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:08,200
Speaker 2: And we look at the diagnosis of PTSD right at the.

1986
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:12,879
Speaker 3: Far end of the spectrum of people who experience traumatic

1987
01:37:12,960 --> 01:37:15,760
Speaker 3: events and how they're reacting to life. In the d

1988
01:37:15,920 --> 01:37:17,960
Speaker 3: s M five, it says that the person was exposed

1989
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:22,439
Speaker 3: to actual or threatened, you know, death, danger, whatever.

1990
01:37:22,560 --> 01:37:24,959
Speaker 2: In the DSM four it said real or perceived.

1991
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:29,240
Speaker 3: And what that meant was like, if it's really happening,

1992
01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:31,320
Speaker 3: I'm going to If it was really happening to you,

1993
01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:34,280
Speaker 3: actually you're going to have a certain reaction to it.

1994
01:37:34,479 --> 01:37:37,280
Speaker 2: If you thought it was going to happen, you can

1995
01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:38,599
Speaker 2: have a very similar reaction.

1996
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:39,000
Speaker 4: You know.

1997
01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:42,519
Speaker 3: That's the quote unquote success of terrorism. It's not that

1998
01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:45,240
Speaker 3: these two buildings came down. It's that now we think

1999
01:37:45,640 --> 01:37:49,720
Speaker 3: every building is coming down. Right, It's very important for

2000
01:37:49,840 --> 01:37:53,840
Speaker 3: us to understand where that threat is.

2001
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:55,759
Speaker 2: You know, our legal.

2002
01:37:55,560 --> 01:37:57,840
Speaker 3: System recognizes that. You know, you can be arrested for

2003
01:37:57,920 --> 01:38:01,680
Speaker 3: assault or battery. Battery is you beat the crap out

2004
01:38:01,720 --> 01:38:04,120
Speaker 3: of me. Assault is you said you're going to beat

2005
01:38:04,120 --> 01:38:05,519
Speaker 3: the crap out of me, or you're going to kill me,

2006
01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:07,080
Speaker 3: you know. And I don't think we're we're not always

2007
01:38:07,120 --> 01:38:09,519
Speaker 3: thinking about that, but we'll live under these and so

2008
01:38:10,280 --> 01:38:14,880
Speaker 3: we our attention does get drawn to that, it's not

2009
01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:16,720
Speaker 3: going to I don't think it's ever. I think we're

2010
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:18,760
Speaker 3: wired for that in a way that we're not going

2011
01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:21,639
Speaker 3: to get pulled toward the other stuff, you know. And now,

2012
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:25,360
Speaker 3: so we'll see something that happens, you know, halfway around

2013
01:38:25,400 --> 01:38:28,600
Speaker 3: the world, and a bomb goes off in a in

2014
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:31,040
Speaker 3: a mall in Africa, And that doesn't mean I shouldn't

2015
01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:33,880
Speaker 3: have empathy and care and concern. But if a bomb

2016
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:35,519
Speaker 3: goes off in a mall in Africa and I go

2017
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:38,559
Speaker 3: into survival mode and start, you know, grabbing my kids

2018
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:40,240
Speaker 3: out of school and throwing them in a closet in

2019
01:38:40,280 --> 01:38:45,040
Speaker 3: the United States, that's a problem, right, And so I

2020
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:49,080
Speaker 3: don't think we know how to handle that yet or

2021
01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:54,160
Speaker 3: just from an evolutionary perspective, so like, I don't think

2022
01:38:54,280 --> 01:38:57,000
Speaker 3: that helps for kids to be able when they're just

2023
01:38:57,120 --> 01:38:59,519
Speaker 3: trying to figure out how to navigate the world and

2024
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:02,599
Speaker 3: be in really relationships that they have the entire world

2025
01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:04,600
Speaker 3: to connect to in that moment. Now is that the

2026
01:39:04,640 --> 01:39:05,920
Speaker 3: world they're going to live in, and we've got to

2027
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:09,960
Speaker 3: like expose them to it at some point probably, But

2028
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:12,080
Speaker 3: I don't know what the total answer for that is.

2029
01:39:12,280 --> 01:39:16,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, something correct me if I'm wrong. Something I've heard

2030
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:19,400
Speaker 1: you say is you help people be good at feeling bad.

2031
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:25,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I say that. I don't. Maybe I'll start putting

2032
01:39:25,720 --> 01:39:26,360
Speaker 2: it on the website.

2033
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:31,240
Speaker 3: But like, I think really at the core of when

2034
01:39:31,400 --> 01:39:36,439
Speaker 3: people are in therapy or coaching, you know that, especially therapy,

2035
01:39:36,479 --> 01:39:38,800
Speaker 3: it's about teaching them how to feel bad, to be

2036
01:39:38,840 --> 01:39:41,760
Speaker 3: able to build emotional resilience and distress tolerance. I mean,

2037
01:39:41,800 --> 01:39:44,360
Speaker 3: this is very much in line with like everything you

2038
01:39:44,439 --> 01:39:47,320
Speaker 3: talk about in the comfort crisis. You know that, you

2039
01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:50,320
Speaker 3: know that it's it's easier to deal with life when

2040
01:39:50,360 --> 01:39:51,840
Speaker 3: things are going the way that we want them to go.

2041
01:39:52,720 --> 01:39:54,680
Speaker 3: It's when they're not going the way that we want

2042
01:39:54,680 --> 01:39:57,040
Speaker 3: them to go and we're having you know, because that's life.

2043
01:39:57,160 --> 01:39:57,320
Speaker 4: You know.

2044
01:39:57,360 --> 01:40:00,759
Speaker 3: That's another thing I got in from them people in recovery.

2045
01:40:00,800 --> 01:40:05,840
Speaker 3: It's like things break and people die, and we're going

2046
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:11,040
Speaker 3: to experience sadness, We're going to experience times of fear,

2047
01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:11,640
Speaker 3: you know.

2048
01:40:11,720 --> 01:40:13,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I think this is where.

2049
01:40:14,439 --> 01:40:17,599
Speaker 3: We have you know, in the in the US anyway,

2050
01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:20,040
Speaker 3: I forget what the number is, but the lions share

2051
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:24,640
Speaker 3: by far, probably upwards. I could be don't quote in

2052
01:40:24,680 --> 01:40:27,080
Speaker 3: the numbers, but I mean it's like way above fifty

2053
01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:32,120
Speaker 3: percent of like antidepressants are prescribed by general GPS, right,

2054
01:40:32,240 --> 01:40:35,360
Speaker 3: So not saying none of them have the training, but

2055
01:40:35,520 --> 01:40:38,800
Speaker 3: I would argue that even if they're prescribed by a psychiatrist,

2056
01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:42,080
Speaker 3: the average psychiatric diagnosis in the US is like something

2057
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:45,519
Speaker 3: ridiculous like eighteen to twelve to eighteen minutes, Like how

2058
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:50,040
Speaker 3: could you know the whole person then and understand them

2059
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:53,800
Speaker 3: in that moment? And it's people are giving you their

2060
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:56,679
Speaker 3: symptoms based on their own perspective in that moment, which

2061
01:40:56,840 --> 01:40:59,720
Speaker 3: people are poor historians, just based on you know, we're

2062
01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:02,640
Speaker 3: looking back through the lens of now, looking back and

2063
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:06,120
Speaker 3: saying I'm depressed now, so you know, two weeks ago,

2064
01:41:06,160 --> 01:41:08,840
Speaker 3: I was I was happier in my life, was great,

2065
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:11,760
Speaker 3: when that may not be the case. Or six weeks ago,

2066
01:41:11,800 --> 01:41:14,160
Speaker 3: I've been depressed for twenty years, which may not be

2067
01:41:14,240 --> 01:41:18,200
Speaker 3: the case, and so we're going to feel bad in life.

2068
01:41:18,360 --> 01:41:20,720
Speaker 2: It's it's it's it's part of it.

2069
01:41:20,880 --> 01:41:24,479
Speaker 1: I think life would be boring if you never felt

2070
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:25,760
Speaker 1: bad occasionally.

2071
01:41:25,479 --> 01:41:28,320
Speaker 3: Right, Well, when we're available for the depths of pain,

2072
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:31,560
Speaker 3: we become available for the heights of joy, you know.

2073
01:41:31,760 --> 01:41:34,479
Speaker 3: And and so I think a lot of people that

2074
01:41:34,880 --> 01:41:37,000
Speaker 3: you know will come in with, you know, maybe our

2075
01:41:37,040 --> 01:41:39,760
Speaker 3: prescribed medications. And I'm not against medications. I think they

2076
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:43,000
Speaker 3: should be used. I don't think problem medications are the problem.

2077
01:41:43,040 --> 01:41:46,000
Speaker 3: I think how diagnosis they are given, and how medications

2078
01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:48,800
Speaker 3: are prescribed and given is a bigger problem. You know,

2079
01:41:49,040 --> 01:41:52,080
Speaker 3: some people will say, welly am I, you will never

2080
01:41:52,280 --> 01:41:55,760
Speaker 3: convince me otherwise that certain antidepressants haven't saved people's lives.

2081
01:41:55,800 --> 01:41:58,599
Speaker 3: I've seen it again and again again. It doesn't mean,

2082
01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:01,120
Speaker 3: though that they have to be on it forever. Right,

2083
01:42:01,240 --> 01:42:03,120
Speaker 3: Maybe some people do have to be on stuff for

2084
01:42:03,640 --> 01:42:05,760
Speaker 3: a long time. It's how do we think.

2085
01:42:05,800 --> 01:42:08,280
Speaker 1: It also doesn't mean that people who have just some

2086
01:42:08,439 --> 01:42:11,080
Speaker 1: of the everyday problems of living need to be.

2087
01:42:11,439 --> 01:42:12,200
Speaker 2: One hundred percent.

2088
01:42:12,280 --> 01:42:15,200
Speaker 3: I think sometimes we look at will say I'm depressed,

2089
01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:18,280
Speaker 3: and they're walking in with that diagnosis they've given themselves,

2090
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:20,479
Speaker 3: when in reality they're sad, And if you look at

2091
01:42:20,520 --> 01:42:22,760
Speaker 3: the conditions of their life, it makes sense that they're sad.

2092
01:42:22,840 --> 01:42:23,120
Speaker 4: Right now.

2093
01:42:23,840 --> 01:42:27,000
Speaker 3: Now, does that not mean that having these if the sadness,

2094
01:42:28,040 --> 01:42:30,160
Speaker 3: you know, and the depressive symptoms last for a while,

2095
01:42:30,240 --> 01:42:32,759
Speaker 3: even if they might not qualify for major depressive disorder,

2096
01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:35,439
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that maybe for a period of time

2097
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:38,040
Speaker 3: something could help them. But there's different things that that

2098
01:42:38,439 --> 01:42:39,800
Speaker 3: we can try, and we also want to look at,

2099
01:42:40,040 --> 01:42:42,599
Speaker 3: you know, what's going on with the medically and other

2100
01:42:42,640 --> 01:42:46,080
Speaker 3: things like that. But aside from that, you know, we're

2101
01:42:46,120 --> 01:42:48,920
Speaker 3: going to experience worry, We're going to experience pain, We're

2102
01:42:48,920 --> 01:42:51,600
Speaker 3: going to experience sadness. You know, I don't like I

2103
01:42:51,760 --> 01:42:55,120
Speaker 3: love my parents. I have a great relationship with them.

2104
01:42:55,120 --> 01:42:59,360
Speaker 3: They're awesome grandparents. You know, if everything goes the way

2105
01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:02,000
Speaker 3: that we think it's gonna go, they'll pass away before me.

2106
01:43:02,520 --> 01:43:04,240
Speaker 3: And I guess I suppose I could, but I mean,

2107
01:43:04,640 --> 01:43:10,360
Speaker 3: if nothing drastic, I don't like when it happens, I'm

2108
01:43:10,400 --> 01:43:11,080
Speaker 3: not gonna like it.

2109
01:43:11,520 --> 01:43:13,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to be a mess, right and I

2110
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:14,920
Speaker 2: actually hope I am.

2111
01:43:15,760 --> 01:43:18,200
Speaker 3: In the moment, I'm gonna wish I wasn't a mess,

2112
01:43:18,240 --> 01:43:20,040
Speaker 3: But I don't want to like these people that I've

2113
01:43:20,080 --> 01:43:22,519
Speaker 3: loved my whole life and and mean so much to me.

2114
01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:22,920
Speaker 3: My kids.

2115
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:25,479
Speaker 2: I don't want to be like, eh, yeah, what's for lunch?

2116
01:43:26,240 --> 01:43:29,280
Speaker 1: Right, because if you're a mess would suggests it was meaningful.

2117
01:43:30,280 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. And and so you know, what are the conditions

2118
01:43:34,200 --> 01:43:36,240
Speaker 3: in our lives and the situations that might be leading

2119
01:43:36,360 --> 01:43:37,439
Speaker 3: to some of these things.

2120
01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:40,080
Speaker 2: So that's that's getting back to like, we got to

2121
01:43:40,160 --> 01:43:40,840
Speaker 2: learn how to feel bad.

2122
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:42,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, we got to learn to be able

2123
01:43:42,880 --> 01:43:44,960
Speaker 3: to be in that space of discomfort so that we

2124
01:43:45,040 --> 01:43:46,720
Speaker 3: can have the power to choose that we can move

2125
01:43:46,800 --> 01:43:50,800
Speaker 3: from reacting to triggers and reacting to the impressions and

2126
01:43:50,840 --> 01:43:53,840
Speaker 3: the stimulus and move to being able to respond to them.

2127
01:43:54,160 --> 01:43:54,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2128
01:43:55,840 --> 01:44:00,680
Speaker 1: Do you think that some of what we societally we

2129
01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:05,400
Speaker 1: societally would think of as negative, whether it be addiction

2130
01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:09,679
Speaker 1: or other mental disorders, do you think those can sometimes

2131
01:44:09,720 --> 01:44:12,240
Speaker 1: become superpowers if they're directed in the right area.

2132
01:44:12,520 --> 01:44:13,479
Speaker 4: I'll give you an example.

2133
01:44:15,960 --> 01:44:18,120
Speaker 1: A lot of definitions of addiction, but if we think

2134
01:44:18,160 --> 01:44:22,320
Speaker 1: about it as persistence despite negative consequences. So when I

2135
01:44:22,400 --> 01:44:26,960
Speaker 1: applied that to alcohol, not good. But when I applied

2136
01:44:27,000 --> 01:44:30,040
Speaker 1: that to my writing life, the fact that I could

2137
01:44:30,439 --> 01:44:33,280
Speaker 1: sit down at a keyboard at four am and it's

2138
01:44:33,320 --> 01:44:36,400
Speaker 1: always hard, it always sucks, it's all negative for like

2139
01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:40,280
Speaker 1: the first hour, but I can push that and persist

2140
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:43,880
Speaker 1: against that, and then eventually the words come out. And

2141
01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:47,240
Speaker 1: so it's like sometimes if things can be sort of redirected,

2142
01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:49,320
Speaker 1: that can be good for us in a way.

2143
01:44:50,280 --> 01:44:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, do you find that.

2144
01:44:51,920 --> 01:44:53,439
Speaker 3: I mean, when you look back at your history, were

2145
01:44:53,479 --> 01:44:56,080
Speaker 3: you using alcohol in those periods of time to be

2146
01:44:56,200 --> 01:44:58,080
Speaker 3: able to push through Well?

2147
01:44:58,120 --> 01:44:59,040
Speaker 4: I think if it's just.

2148
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:04,439
Speaker 1: I knew there was downsides in a lot of ways,

2149
01:45:04,439 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 1: but I kept doing that, you know, even though it

2150
01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:08,280
Speaker 1: solved the problem in the short term. But it's like

2151
01:45:08,360 --> 01:45:11,200
Speaker 1: that sort of persistence and just keeping going.

2152
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:13,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that it goes back to

2153
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:15,240
Speaker 3: a little bit of what we were talking around around

2154
01:45:15,280 --> 01:45:17,360
Speaker 3: the energy that we have in our bodies and how

2155
01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:20,599
Speaker 3: it's how it's kind of direct, you know, and if

2156
01:45:20,960 --> 01:45:24,160
Speaker 3: we're not using it in ways that kind of fulfill

2157
01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:26,439
Speaker 3: us or meet some sort of purpose or have some

2158
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:27,519
Speaker 3: sort of direction or aim.

2159
01:45:27,800 --> 01:45:29,240
Speaker 2: Again, if you don't have aim, you're aimless.

2160
01:45:29,280 --> 01:45:31,400
Speaker 3: So now you're walking around aimless and have all this energy,

2161
01:45:31,720 --> 01:45:33,400
Speaker 3: and so we're looking at something to kind of to

2162
01:45:33,880 --> 01:45:36,720
Speaker 3: level that, get out, to get it out, to level it,

2163
01:45:36,840 --> 01:45:36,960
Speaker 3: you know.

2164
01:45:37,040 --> 01:45:39,600
Speaker 2: I mean it's great. It works, it works, really, it

2165
01:45:39,720 --> 01:45:40,439
Speaker 2: works really fast.

2166
01:45:41,120 --> 01:45:45,680
Speaker 3: So I think being I think it's less about like

2167
01:45:45,920 --> 01:45:49,760
Speaker 3: transferring the addictive personality to being able to use the

2168
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:54,360
Speaker 3: energies and recognize that we're generative beings and where are

2169
01:45:54,360 --> 01:45:56,760
Speaker 3: we going to put what we're generating. I think a

2170
01:45:56,800 --> 01:45:59,640
Speaker 3: lot of people will find that they were this was me.

2171
01:45:59,760 --> 01:46:02,439
Speaker 3: I was doing something that I'm not blaming it on this,

2172
01:46:02,600 --> 01:46:06,840
Speaker 3: but like I was also felt very down and stuck

2173
01:46:06,960 --> 01:46:10,320
Speaker 3: because I wasn't. My life didn't feel like it had

2174
01:46:10,360 --> 01:46:13,400
Speaker 3: any purpose to it, you know, and I wasn't. And

2175
01:46:13,720 --> 01:46:16,479
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean everybody has to go out and you know,

2176
01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:19,400
Speaker 3: become a therapist or become a teacher. You know. In fact,

2177
01:46:19,479 --> 01:46:21,840
Speaker 3: a lot of what I'll work with people on is

2178
01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:24,200
Speaker 3: and I see it a lot, is that people confuse

2179
01:46:24,520 --> 01:46:27,920
Speaker 3: their purpose with what they do, and what we do

2180
01:46:28,240 --> 01:46:31,320
Speaker 3: can be a great vehicle for our purpose. So, for

2181
01:46:31,400 --> 01:46:35,479
Speaker 3: an example, if my purpose it was to be a

2182
01:46:35,640 --> 01:46:38,400
Speaker 3: therapist and work with people and help them work through

2183
01:46:38,400 --> 01:46:41,320
Speaker 3: their addictions and trauma, I mean, okay, so that's great.

2184
01:46:41,760 --> 01:46:44,680
Speaker 2: Now how many hours a week can I spend doing that?

2185
01:46:45,680 --> 01:46:48,799
Speaker 3: If that's my purpose is to do that, then almost

2186
01:46:49,200 --> 01:46:51,840
Speaker 3: in that way, anything else that I'm doing that's not

2187
01:46:52,000 --> 01:46:55,479
Speaker 3: that is in conflict with my purpose, like sitting on

2188
01:46:55,560 --> 01:46:59,080
Speaker 3: the couch with my kids watching a kid's Netflix movie

2189
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:04,479
Speaker 3: for the alreaty fifth time, right, or watching They're Little

2190
01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:09,080
Speaker 3: and they're you know, kids born in the twenty twenties

2191
01:47:09,840 --> 01:47:11,679
Speaker 3: and we had to We've had to watch Home Alone

2192
01:47:11,720 --> 01:47:13,519
Speaker 3: from the nineties like one hundred and fifty times.

2193
01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:14,240
Speaker 4: Right, heh, that's good.

2194
01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:19,360
Speaker 3: So uh you know then in a way that's in

2195
01:47:19,439 --> 01:47:21,920
Speaker 3: conflict with my purpose and I and how anytime that

2196
01:47:22,000 --> 01:47:24,280
Speaker 3: I'm not doing this, I'm not going to feel fulfilled.

2197
01:47:25,200 --> 01:47:28,560
Speaker 3: You know if I look back and go, okay, what

2198
01:47:29,040 --> 01:47:33,599
Speaker 3: is being a therapist and doing therapists and helping people?

2199
01:47:33,640 --> 01:47:36,519
Speaker 3: What is that providing? What do I you know, who

2200
01:47:36,600 --> 01:47:38,800
Speaker 3: am I in almost like an ontological study, which is

2201
01:47:38,880 --> 01:47:42,080
Speaker 3: a study of a being, Like okay, you know I

2202
01:47:42,160 --> 01:47:44,560
Speaker 3: get to be in service. I had to be you know,

2203
01:47:45,200 --> 01:47:48,360
Speaker 3: a contribution, right, So maybe my purpose is to be

2204
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:54,720
Speaker 3: in service to my fellow man. Now that is not

2205
01:47:55,320 --> 01:47:58,640
Speaker 3: tied to a destination like once I am in my

2206
01:47:58,760 --> 01:48:00,880
Speaker 3: office or once I'm working with this many people, or

2207
01:48:00,920 --> 01:48:02,840
Speaker 3: once I get this degree. That's something I can do

2208
01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:06,000
Speaker 3: today and that's something I can do watching home alone

2209
01:48:06,040 --> 01:48:07,479
Speaker 3: with my kids for the two hundred time I can

2210
01:48:07,520 --> 01:48:09,800
Speaker 3: be in service to them. So now my purpose is

2211
01:48:09,880 --> 01:48:11,840
Speaker 3: more about who I be rather than what I do.

2212
01:48:12,160 --> 01:48:13,920
Speaker 3: But the things that I do can be a vehicle

2213
01:48:14,240 --> 01:48:14,439
Speaker 3: for that.

2214
01:48:14,760 --> 01:48:15,439
Speaker 4: That makes sense.

2215
01:48:16,400 --> 01:48:19,400
Speaker 1: How important do you think community is for helping solve

2216
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:21,439
Speaker 1: these sorts of issues?

2217
01:48:22,520 --> 01:48:29,519
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean I think community is I think right

2218
01:48:29,600 --> 01:48:35,920
Speaker 3: up there with sleep, nutrition, fitness. I mean I think

2219
01:48:35,960 --> 01:48:39,400
Speaker 3: we're communal beings. I mean we're not the back in

2220
01:48:39,479 --> 01:48:41,080
Speaker 3: our relation. We're not at the top of the food chain.

2221
01:48:41,400 --> 01:48:43,599
Speaker 3: I mean we are now because you can live somewhere

2222
01:48:43,680 --> 01:48:46,240
Speaker 3: now because of technology. And when I say technology, I

2223
01:48:46,280 --> 01:48:50,679
Speaker 3: mean everything from you know, computers, but also the guns

2224
01:48:50,800 --> 01:48:54,280
Speaker 3: and you know, running water, running water and other things

2225
01:48:54,320 --> 01:48:59,240
Speaker 3: like that. But we didn't survive alone, you know, and

2226
01:48:59,840 --> 01:49:02,000
Speaker 3: we were built to be in these tribes and we

2227
01:49:02,120 --> 01:49:04,760
Speaker 3: feel safe in them, you know.

2228
01:49:04,840 --> 01:49:07,479
Speaker 2: I mean, I like I remember reading I think it

2229
01:49:07,600 --> 01:49:08,960
Speaker 2: was which book was it?

2230
01:49:09,160 --> 01:49:09,360
Speaker 4: It was?

2231
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:12,639
Speaker 3: Maybe it was tried by Sebastian where he talks about

2232
01:49:12,640 --> 01:49:17,680
Speaker 3: people like missing war zones in England, which you know,

2233
01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:21,560
Speaker 3: when they were all in the tunnels together or I

2234
01:49:21,640 --> 01:49:23,920
Speaker 3: think it was after nine to eleven that like where

2235
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:25,360
Speaker 3: everybody kind.

2236
01:49:25,240 --> 01:49:26,479
Speaker 2: Of came together, came together.

2237
01:49:26,520 --> 01:49:29,799
Speaker 3: I mean, there was really interesting for in my personal

2238
01:49:29,840 --> 01:49:32,080
Speaker 3: experiences long before the therapist. But you know, I was

2239
01:49:32,120 --> 01:49:35,200
Speaker 3: in my early twenties and mid twenties when nine to

2240
01:49:35,240 --> 01:49:39,840
Speaker 3: eleven happened, and like, I've never felt more like an

2241
01:49:39,880 --> 01:49:43,920
Speaker 3: American and connected to everybody than probably the week after

2242
01:49:44,040 --> 01:49:48,640
Speaker 3: that totally. And I'm I'm not suggesting that's what we

2243
01:49:48,720 --> 01:49:50,840
Speaker 3: need to have happened or I want to happen, but

2244
01:49:51,360 --> 01:49:55,600
Speaker 3: it was we had like this common ground, and.

2245
01:49:58,120 --> 01:50:01,160
Speaker 2: The common ground feels safe, it feels good.

2246
01:50:01,760 --> 01:50:03,000
Speaker 3: You know, we're we're.

2247
01:50:04,560 --> 01:50:05,479
Speaker 2: On the same mission.

2248
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:08,360
Speaker 3: We're together, you know, I don't And and not only that,

2249
01:50:08,520 --> 01:50:10,400
Speaker 3: but like the thing that you were talking about perspective,

2250
01:50:10,479 --> 01:50:12,400
Speaker 3: I mean, two heads are better than one. We want

2251
01:50:12,439 --> 01:50:14,439
Speaker 3: to talk about power grading yourself, just us having a

2252
01:50:14,479 --> 01:50:16,760
Speaker 3: conversation and being able to see things from a different way,

2253
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:21,719
Speaker 3: to be able to disagree, and like invention only happens

2254
01:50:21,760 --> 01:50:24,400
Speaker 3: through disagreement, right, Like we have to say I don't

2255
01:50:24,439 --> 01:50:27,439
Speaker 3: agree with how it is. You know, I don't agree

2256
01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:30,760
Speaker 3: that light can only come from fire, right, someone had

2257
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:34,479
Speaker 3: to say that, whether that was Tesla or Edison.

2258
01:50:34,520 --> 01:50:35,680
Speaker 2: I don't know, you can leave that up to you.

2259
01:50:35,800 --> 01:50:37,240
Speaker 2: We can, we can do two takes on that, and

2260
01:50:37,439 --> 01:50:38,600
Speaker 2: so your viewers do.

2261
01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:42,040
Speaker 3: But and even in like my work with in our

2262
01:50:42,080 --> 01:50:44,160
Speaker 3: work as therapist, we're helping, you know, we're having people

2263
01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:46,639
Speaker 3: kind of disagree with their their histories in a way

2264
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:50,680
Speaker 3: to invent a new way of living. But I think

2265
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:53,280
Speaker 3: being able to do stuff like that in community is

2266
01:50:53,680 --> 01:50:55,840
Speaker 3: so important, and I think that's why, you know, I

2267
01:50:56,000 --> 01:50:57,600
Speaker 3: heard you guys talking about this in one of your

2268
01:50:57,640 --> 01:51:02,559
Speaker 3: other episodes with the Guy the GQ. Yeah, we were

2269
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:06,519
Speaker 3: like people finding common ground in bars, you know where.

2270
01:51:07,000 --> 01:51:08,639
Speaker 3: Then you talked about your friend that wrote the book

2271
01:51:08,680 --> 01:51:13,560
Speaker 3: where uh, you know, the political kind of people on

2272
01:51:13,640 --> 01:51:16,479
Speaker 3: different sides of the aisle, which is weird to say

2273
01:51:16,560 --> 01:51:19,320
Speaker 3: because most people in the bar aren't actually on the aisles.

2274
01:51:19,360 --> 01:51:20,880
Speaker 3: But like I think people know what I mean, but

2275
01:51:20,960 --> 01:51:22,559
Speaker 3: it kind of it kind of disappears like they had

2276
01:51:22,640 --> 01:51:24,920
Speaker 3: this common You can walk into a bar and sit

2277
01:51:25,000 --> 01:51:26,680
Speaker 3: next to a stranger and talk. You said that, like,

2278
01:51:26,960 --> 01:51:28,479
Speaker 3: sit next to a stranger and it's not weird to

2279
01:51:28,600 --> 01:51:30,639
Speaker 3: just start just start to start talking to them.

2280
01:51:31,040 --> 01:51:34,000
Speaker 1: I think that bar has like the context of it's

2281
01:51:34,040 --> 01:51:36,040
Speaker 1: okay to just talk to a random stranger. Where if

2282
01:51:36,040 --> 01:51:38,760
Speaker 1: I'm at Starbucks and sit next to someone and I

2283
01:51:38,840 --> 01:51:40,880
Speaker 1: start talking to them, they're going to be like, if

2284
01:51:40,920 --> 01:51:41,759
Speaker 1: it's a woman named.

2285
01:51:42,040 --> 01:51:42,920
Speaker 4: Person like hitting on me.

2286
01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:44,920
Speaker 1: If it's a guy, they're gonna be like this person

2287
01:51:45,040 --> 01:51:47,360
Speaker 1: no drugs or homeless or like it's a little weirder.

2288
01:51:47,520 --> 01:51:47,680
Speaker 4: You know.

2289
01:51:47,880 --> 01:51:50,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean I think we naturally seek those

2290
01:51:50,680 --> 01:51:54,840
Speaker 3: things sports teams, right, Like, if you're wearing the same

2291
01:51:55,520 --> 01:51:59,519
Speaker 3: football team hat as somebody on an airplane, you're probably

2292
01:51:59,560 --> 01:52:01,639
Speaker 3: more like to talk to them, or you have something

2293
01:52:01,760 --> 01:52:04,040
Speaker 3: totally to open that, just like the alcohol kind of

2294
01:52:04,240 --> 01:52:06,960
Speaker 3: opens it in a bar. You know, we went to

2295
01:52:07,000 --> 01:52:08,840
Speaker 3: see Fish last night. I'm not like one of the

2296
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:10,800
Speaker 3: guys that follows Fish around. I've been to a few

2297
01:52:10,800 --> 01:52:12,360
Speaker 3: shows in my life. I wanted to see this fear

2298
01:52:12,360 --> 01:52:13,880
Speaker 3: it was going to be a good experience. It was

2299
01:52:13,920 --> 01:52:16,160
Speaker 3: a great experience, but a lot of the people in there,

2300
01:52:16,680 --> 01:52:19,320
Speaker 3: you know, they're at all the shows that they're doing.

2301
01:52:19,520 --> 01:52:21,000
Speaker 3: You know, we walked in I don't know if you

2302
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:22,519
Speaker 3: saw it, but when we walked in the seat, this guy,

2303
01:52:22,600 --> 01:52:25,519
Speaker 3: like after we came back from the bathroom, this guy

2304
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:30,720
Speaker 3: hugged me. You know, might have been something, you know,

2305
01:52:31,280 --> 01:52:34,160
Speaker 3: influenced by something out. But there was like this other

2306
01:52:34,240 --> 01:52:37,200
Speaker 3: people I saw that seemingly didn't know each other, you know,

2307
01:52:37,360 --> 01:52:38,280
Speaker 3: high fiving each other.

2308
01:52:38,400 --> 01:52:38,560
Speaker 4: You know.

2309
01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:41,360
Speaker 3: I think we find this in spiritual communities. There's some

2310
01:52:41,560 --> 01:52:43,559
Speaker 3: sort of common connection that we get that we can

2311
01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:48,400
Speaker 3: open up. You know, Twelve Step you know, meetings have

2312
01:52:48,560 --> 01:52:51,920
Speaker 3: been so valuable, and people will argue against this, and

2313
01:52:53,520 --> 01:52:57,320
Speaker 3: because people like to argue against everything, but it provides

2314
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:02,920
Speaker 3: the the it provides the same sort of container as

2315
01:53:02,960 --> 01:53:03,519
Speaker 3: the bar did.

2316
01:53:07,720 --> 01:53:10,280
Speaker 2: And people have this in some ways. We were talking

2317
01:53:10,320 --> 01:53:10,960
Speaker 2: about this yesterday.

2318
01:53:11,200 --> 01:53:13,960
Speaker 3: In some ways, like that stigma that there is against

2319
01:53:13,960 --> 01:53:16,200
Speaker 3: alcoholism and drug that kind of brings these people together,

2320
01:53:16,240 --> 01:53:17,640
Speaker 3: and it's like a badge of honor, like oh, I

2321
01:53:17,760 --> 01:53:20,040
Speaker 3: know you, like you see somebody walk out of there,

2322
01:53:20,120 --> 01:53:22,800
Speaker 3: you say. You know, people in a will say to

2323
01:53:22,800 --> 01:53:24,640
Speaker 3: other people, oh, are you a friend of Bill? Like

2324
01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:26,920
Speaker 3: Bill Wilson, and so they know that, and it's kind

2325
01:53:26,920 --> 01:53:27,200
Speaker 3: of like this.

2326
01:53:27,320 --> 01:53:30,160
Speaker 2: Language and then there's like this instant connection.

2327
01:53:30,840 --> 01:53:33,080
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying I'm not saying everybody has to

2328
01:53:33,160 --> 01:53:36,439
Speaker 3: go to twelve step meetings, but finding a community and

2329
01:53:36,520 --> 01:53:40,439
Speaker 3: a place to fit and be and be safe is

2330
01:53:40,920 --> 01:53:46,960
Speaker 3: extremely important. Yeah, you know, alone, I will make up

2331
01:53:48,479 --> 01:53:52,519
Speaker 3: the worst parts of the world and myself and I

2332
01:53:52,680 --> 01:53:55,200
Speaker 3: need that connection with with others. I mean, I think,

2333
01:53:55,520 --> 01:53:57,120
Speaker 3: I just I think we're built that way. I mean,

2334
01:53:57,200 --> 01:54:00,479
Speaker 3: I I you know, I know there's a lot of

2335
01:54:00,520 --> 01:54:04,200
Speaker 3: work around. The opposite of an addiction is connection, and

2336
01:54:04,360 --> 01:54:07,479
Speaker 3: I don't know that. I always aspire, I always agree

2337
01:54:07,520 --> 01:54:10,880
Speaker 3: with like it's the opposite thing. But I think connection

2338
01:54:11,240 --> 01:54:14,120
Speaker 3: is so important now for some people. You can't just

2339
01:54:14,200 --> 01:54:17,559
Speaker 3: throw people when they've been addicted or traumatized into those

2340
01:54:17,640 --> 01:54:20,840
Speaker 3: types of environments because for them, connection or what they

2341
01:54:20,960 --> 01:54:22,759
Speaker 3: believe is connection, may have been very dangerous.

2342
01:54:22,760 --> 01:54:24,040
Speaker 2: Somebody's been abused in their home.

2343
01:54:24,560 --> 01:54:26,960
Speaker 3: You know, I've worked with kids that are young men

2344
01:54:27,080 --> 01:54:30,280
Speaker 3: that we were you know, people were telling to go

2345
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:34,120
Speaker 3: to like twelve step programs, you know, find a sponsor,

2346
01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:37,680
Speaker 3: they tell them, you know, go through the steps with them,

2347
01:54:37,680 --> 01:54:39,600
Speaker 3: which involves kind of an inventory, which is kind of

2348
01:54:39,640 --> 01:54:42,920
Speaker 3: like go find an older, experienced guy and tell them

2349
01:54:43,040 --> 01:54:45,640
Speaker 3: your secrets. Well, what this kid had never told us

2350
01:54:45,760 --> 01:54:48,040
Speaker 3: and we found out in treatment, is that, you know,

2351
01:54:48,160 --> 01:54:51,120
Speaker 3: he was abused by a scout master or a teacher.

2352
01:54:51,480 --> 01:54:54,800
Speaker 3: So like going to an older guy and telling your

2353
01:54:54,840 --> 01:54:57,720
Speaker 3: secrets wasn't really a source of safety. Now that doesn't

2354
01:54:58,080 --> 01:55:00,400
Speaker 3: mean that that thing's the problem, but there were there

2355
01:55:00,520 --> 01:55:02,560
Speaker 3: was work that sometimes we need to do with people

2356
01:55:02,680 --> 01:55:05,680
Speaker 3: to be able to connect or find how you can

2357
01:55:05,720 --> 01:55:08,040
Speaker 3: connect with one person and build community that way. It

2358
01:55:08,080 --> 01:55:11,520
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be throwing yourself into you know, a

2359
01:55:11,680 --> 01:55:14,320
Speaker 3: twenty thousand person arena where you're gonna get hugged by

2360
01:55:14,880 --> 01:55:16,160
Speaker 3: a fish fan that you don't know.

2361
01:55:17,720 --> 01:55:19,680
Speaker 1: It would be a lot cooler if you did. You

2362
01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:23,000
Speaker 1: know what it really really would you mentioned power greater

2363
01:55:23,120 --> 01:55:24,840
Speaker 1: than yourself. How do you see that play out with

2364
01:55:24,920 --> 01:55:26,720
Speaker 1: people you work with? How important is that? How does

2365
01:55:26,760 --> 01:55:27,400
Speaker 1: it get defined?

2366
01:55:28,320 --> 01:55:30,240
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's I think at the core

2367
01:55:30,440 --> 01:55:36,080
Speaker 3: of everything, alcoholism, drug addiction, anything that kind of is

2368
01:55:36,200 --> 01:55:39,000
Speaker 3: blocking us from who we are and our full expression

2369
01:55:39,040 --> 01:55:42,400
Speaker 3: is a spiritual malady. Yeah, that pigs a question what

2370
01:55:42,520 --> 01:55:45,800
Speaker 3: is spirituality? I don't for some people that they find

2371
01:55:45,840 --> 01:55:51,720
Speaker 3: that in a religious context and practices, you know. I

2372
01:55:51,800 --> 01:55:55,000
Speaker 3: think it's returning to the spirit that we we already are.

2373
01:55:55,080 --> 01:55:58,160
Speaker 3: That a spiritual process is not going to get something

2374
01:55:58,360 --> 01:56:01,960
Speaker 3: that we don't have. It's about returning to who we

2375
01:56:02,040 --> 01:56:06,200
Speaker 3: already are. I think we're kind of born perfect, whole

2376
01:56:06,320 --> 01:56:10,840
Speaker 3: and complete, and our experiences in life kind of start

2377
01:56:10,960 --> 01:56:12,960
Speaker 3: to cover some of that up. You know. It's why

2378
01:56:13,040 --> 01:56:18,400
Speaker 3: we see kids that, like, you know, they think they

2379
01:56:18,480 --> 01:56:21,920
Speaker 3: can be and do anything. My friend's kid many years ago,

2380
01:56:22,360 --> 01:56:23,880
Speaker 3: I remember she was four, and I said, what is

2381
01:56:23,920 --> 01:56:25,280
Speaker 3: what is Calen want to be when she grows up?

2382
01:56:25,280 --> 01:56:29,880
Speaker 2: And they said a cheetah. Of course she can't be

2383
01:56:29,920 --> 01:56:34,080
Speaker 2: a cheetah, right, but you.

2384
01:56:34,120 --> 01:56:37,280
Speaker 3: Know, she thought in her way that she could, you know,

2385
01:56:37,400 --> 01:56:40,880
Speaker 3: and it'll be a point at which she realizes she can't,

2386
01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:42,160
Speaker 3: and maybe we'll be crushed by that.

2387
01:56:42,320 --> 01:56:44,840
Speaker 4: She's older now joins a furry community, or.

2388
01:56:44,920 --> 01:56:46,720
Speaker 3: Joins a furry community. But you know, I see that

2389
01:56:46,800 --> 01:56:49,320
Speaker 3: with my kids. But I think some people that stuff,

2390
01:56:49,360 --> 01:56:52,360
Speaker 3: that innocence starts getting covered up very very early, maybe

2391
01:56:52,440 --> 01:56:54,920
Speaker 3: even pre birth, you know, when they're in the womb

2392
01:56:54,960 --> 01:56:58,120
Speaker 3: and their mother attached to their mother's nervous system. That

2393
01:56:58,240 --> 01:57:02,480
Speaker 3: is very maybe if they're very scared or traumatized themselves.

2394
01:57:02,520 --> 01:57:03,600
Speaker 3: You know, I think that's a lot of what we

2395
01:57:03,680 --> 01:57:07,200
Speaker 3: see with you know, when I've worked in treatment centers

2396
01:57:07,240 --> 01:57:10,640
Speaker 3: and things like that, we've had always you know, fifteen

2397
01:57:10,680 --> 01:57:15,120
Speaker 3: to twenty percent of the people in there were adopted,

2398
01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:18,560
Speaker 3: you know, and maybe even into good homes, but their

2399
01:57:18,600 --> 01:57:20,360
Speaker 3: nervous system was kind of set in a way that

2400
01:57:21,280 --> 01:57:24,720
Speaker 3: it didn't fit into the environment that they were in there.

2401
01:57:24,840 --> 01:57:28,680
Speaker 3: Kind of this is a lot I my belief, probably

2402
01:57:28,800 --> 01:57:32,000
Speaker 3: unsupported by evidence, which a lot of my beliefs might be,

2403
01:57:32,120 --> 01:57:34,200
Speaker 3: is that our nervous system kind of develops to prepare

2404
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:36,640
Speaker 3: us for the environment that we're coming into. I think

2405
01:57:36,680 --> 01:57:40,640
Speaker 3: we're very intuitive beings and we're not just like alive

2406
01:57:40,800 --> 01:57:42,640
Speaker 3: the momentment we take that breath. I mean, there's a

2407
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:48,760
Speaker 3: lot going on before that as we're developing. But so

2408
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:54,840
Speaker 3: some sort of spiritual awakening, you know, to and in

2409
01:57:55,040 --> 01:58:00,400
Speaker 3: that finding a power greater than yourself. Why is that

2410
01:58:00,560 --> 01:58:04,360
Speaker 3: so important? Because if I'm not doing that, that's saying

2411
01:58:04,400 --> 01:58:05,080
Speaker 3: that I'm the.

2412
01:58:06,560 --> 01:58:07,240
Speaker 2: Greatest power.

2413
01:58:08,280 --> 01:58:10,360
Speaker 3: Whether that's from like a selfish self, but a lot

2414
01:58:10,360 --> 01:58:12,320
Speaker 3: of people, that means I have to control everything, I

2415
01:58:12,400 --> 01:58:14,880
Speaker 3: have to manage everything, I have to do the impossible,

2416
01:58:15,160 --> 01:58:19,360
Speaker 3: and that creates that's that's where so much of the

2417
01:58:19,400 --> 01:58:23,600
Speaker 3: effects of trauma, anxiety, stress all come from. I'm trying

2418
01:58:23,640 --> 01:58:26,720
Speaker 3: to manage stuff that I that I can't, you know,

2419
01:58:26,960 --> 01:58:29,760
Speaker 3: and and the amount of things that we can control

2420
01:58:30,960 --> 01:58:33,960
Speaker 3: are so small. Like I mean, I can control certain things,

2421
01:58:34,000 --> 01:58:36,680
Speaker 3: like I can control knocking this cup off the table.

2422
01:58:37,040 --> 01:58:40,440
Speaker 3: I even if it's falling on the tile floor, it's

2423
01:58:40,480 --> 01:58:43,000
Speaker 3: still I might. I can't promise that it's going to break. Yeah,

2424
01:58:43,800 --> 01:58:47,760
Speaker 3: you know, I can't force all of these things. So finding,

2425
01:58:48,080 --> 01:58:50,520
Speaker 3: I think an addiction is a search for a power

2426
01:58:50,560 --> 01:58:52,920
Speaker 3: greater themselves. I always will say alcohol is a power

2427
01:58:52,960 --> 01:58:56,440
Speaker 3: greater than myself. Save my life, save my life. Many

2428
01:58:56,480 --> 01:59:03,520
Speaker 3: times it just wasn't a power great enough. And you know,

2429
01:59:03,640 --> 01:59:06,840
Speaker 3: so however, people find that, you know, just some people

2430
01:59:06,840 --> 01:59:09,000
Speaker 3: will find it in the you know, the power of

2431
01:59:09,000 --> 01:59:12,800
Speaker 3: the universe, the power of community, you know, the power

2432
01:59:12,880 --> 01:59:15,440
Speaker 3: of being with one other person, and other people find

2433
01:59:15,440 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 3: it in a relationship with God or whatever that means

2434
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:21,600
Speaker 3: to them. But I think that there's this it's a

2435
01:59:22,120 --> 01:59:28,200
Speaker 3: it's a very important question to ask and route to

2436
01:59:28,320 --> 01:59:33,480
Speaker 3: go go down. It's the biggest question. Yeah, yeah, all right,

2437
01:59:33,520 --> 01:59:37,839
Speaker 3: final two questions. And I know we can't give everyone

2438
01:59:38,080 --> 01:59:40,440
Speaker 3: the same thing. People are different.

2439
01:59:41,640 --> 01:59:45,400
Speaker 1: If someone is thinking, I overdo this thing, it's hurting me,

2440
01:59:45,880 --> 01:59:47,080
Speaker 1: what is the first thing you would tell them?

2441
01:59:49,040 --> 01:59:53,600
Speaker 3: Setting aside where they're like actively suicidal or you know,

2442
01:59:54,000 --> 01:59:56,200
Speaker 3: drinking or doing drugs in a way that they need

2443
01:59:56,240 --> 01:59:56,960
Speaker 3: to be in the hospital.

2444
01:59:57,360 --> 02:00:00,840
Speaker 2: We'll set that aside for a second. Say the question again,

2445
02:00:00,920 --> 02:00:01,720
Speaker 2: if they how do I.

2446
02:00:02,040 --> 02:00:05,360
Speaker 1: They feel like they're overdoing something and it's hurting them.

2447
02:00:05,360 --> 02:00:07,760
Speaker 3: Okay, we would you tell them stop it for thirty days,

2448
02:00:08,680 --> 02:00:12,080
Speaker 3: make a commitment to stop it for thirty days, and

2449
02:00:12,160 --> 02:00:14,880
Speaker 3: then be honest with yourself and be aware of what's

2450
02:00:14,920 --> 02:00:16,160
Speaker 3: happening in that period of time.

2451
02:00:17,280 --> 02:00:19,360
Speaker 2: You know, are you able to stop for thirty days?

2452
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:21,520
Speaker 3: That doesn't necessarily give you the answer that it's not

2453
02:00:22,280 --> 02:00:24,520
Speaker 3: controlling you or a problem or you're overdoing it.

2454
02:00:25,320 --> 02:00:26,360
Speaker 2: But even if you were.

2455
02:00:26,320 --> 02:00:29,080
Speaker 3: Able to the whole time, were you waiting for day

2456
02:00:29,160 --> 02:00:31,560
Speaker 3: thirty one? Are you thinking about it all the time?

2457
02:00:32,120 --> 02:00:32,240
Speaker 4: You know?

2458
02:00:32,760 --> 02:00:35,760
Speaker 3: We're you organizing your life in a way that you know.

2459
02:00:36,640 --> 02:00:38,440
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people will fool themselves. I

2460
02:00:38,560 --> 02:00:41,280
Speaker 3: used to fool myself with that. I used to I

2461
02:00:41,360 --> 02:00:43,040
Speaker 3: got into even though I lived in Florida. I got

2462
02:00:43,080 --> 02:00:45,800
Speaker 3: in this like high altitude mountaineering. First I had done

2463
02:00:45,920 --> 02:00:49,560
Speaker 3: Mount Kilmanjaro, and then I went to like Mount Aconcagua

2464
02:00:49,600 --> 02:00:51,880
Speaker 3: and I did ice climbing in Alaska, and this is

2465
02:00:51,920 --> 02:00:53,440
Speaker 3: all when I was and then we talked about I

2466
02:00:53,480 --> 02:00:55,440
Speaker 3: went to Bhutan and this was all during the period

2467
02:00:55,480 --> 02:00:56,200
Speaker 3: of time I was drinking.

2468
02:00:56,240 --> 02:00:58,520
Speaker 2: But I would pull it together for a period of

2469
02:00:58,560 --> 02:00:59,400
Speaker 2: time to train for.

2470
02:00:59,440 --> 02:01:05,920
Speaker 6: This thing, and then when it was over, dumped off

2471
02:01:05,960 --> 02:01:10,000
Speaker 6: in Bangkok, you know, so I'm going to get.

2472
02:01:09,840 --> 02:01:11,560
Speaker 4: This flight to route through.

2473
02:01:11,600 --> 02:01:15,080
Speaker 3: Bangkok and that was that was that was actually after

2474
02:01:15,160 --> 02:01:18,120
Speaker 3: Killim and jar and I'm just kidding and from Africa

2475
02:01:18,200 --> 02:01:22,760
Speaker 3: to but I mean, recognize what your relationship is is

2476
02:01:23,080 --> 02:01:25,160
Speaker 3: with it, you know. I think they also look at

2477
02:01:25,240 --> 02:01:27,640
Speaker 3: am I overdoing it? Is it this thing and how

2478
02:01:27,760 --> 02:01:31,160
Speaker 3: is it impacting my life negatively or or positively? And

2479
02:01:31,240 --> 02:01:33,920
Speaker 3: being able to take an inventory of that, you know,

2480
02:01:34,640 --> 02:01:38,040
Speaker 3: I think that's the stopping and seeing what can happen

2481
02:01:38,080 --> 02:01:39,840
Speaker 3: over that period of time and how you're thinking about it.

2482
02:01:39,920 --> 02:01:42,000
Speaker 3: It's kind of like the old Jeff remember Jeff Foxworthy,

2483
02:01:42,120 --> 02:01:46,520
Speaker 3: like here's your sign, Like, yeah, totally, when drinking, you're

2484
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:49,320
Speaker 3: thinking about not drinking, and or when you're not drinking,

2485
02:01:49,360 --> 02:01:52,120
Speaker 3: you're thinking about drinking. You might be an alcoholic type

2486
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:55,440
Speaker 3: of thing. So that's one way. The other way is

2487
02:01:55,520 --> 02:01:59,040
Speaker 3: to you know, get in an assessment with somebody and

2488
02:01:59,160 --> 02:02:02,080
Speaker 3: be honest with them and and you know, whether that's

2489
02:02:02,120 --> 02:02:04,360
Speaker 3: a therapist or a doctor or whatever, whatever the thing

2490
02:02:04,520 --> 02:02:07,040
Speaker 3: is to find out, you know, if they're overdoing they

2491
02:02:07,040 --> 02:02:10,600
Speaker 3: think they're overdoing sugar, maybe they should go get some

2492
02:02:10,640 --> 02:02:14,360
Speaker 3: blood tests and figure it out. You know. Sometimes people

2493
02:02:14,400 --> 02:02:16,800
Speaker 3: are Sometimes people are saying I'm overdoing something because today

2494
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:18,360
Speaker 3: they didn't feel good about it, but when we look

2495
02:02:18,360 --> 02:02:21,200
Speaker 3: at their history, they're not. Some people are saying I'm

2496
02:02:21,200 --> 02:02:23,400
Speaker 3: not overdoing it because you know, three days a week

2497
02:02:23,480 --> 02:02:25,520
Speaker 3: they're not doing it, but they can't control the days

2498
02:02:25,520 --> 02:02:26,520
Speaker 3: that they do overdo it or not.

2499
02:02:26,640 --> 02:02:28,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, So yeah, that makes sense.

2500
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:30,880
Speaker 3: But I think that's a that's a great Thirty days

2501
02:02:31,000 --> 02:02:33,120
Speaker 3: is not a magic number, but a period of time

2502
02:02:33,200 --> 02:02:36,000
Speaker 3: to try to intervene on it, stop it and see

2503
02:02:36,040 --> 02:02:36,480
Speaker 3: what happens.

2504
02:02:36,680 --> 02:02:38,720
Speaker 4: It happens. Yeah, all right. Final question.

2505
02:02:38,800 --> 02:02:41,840
Speaker 1: You could see any band or musician living or dead,

2506
02:02:41,960 --> 02:02:44,480
Speaker 1: oh my god, live any point in their career.

2507
02:02:45,600 --> 02:02:50,120
Speaker 4: Who are you choosing come on Nirvana like nineteen ninety one?

2508
02:02:50,400 --> 02:02:54,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like in a in a small bar.

2509
02:02:55,480 --> 02:02:58,160
Speaker 4: Just a shitty bar in like Seattle.

2510
02:02:57,920 --> 02:03:00,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I wouldn't have even remembered the show.

2511
02:03:02,680 --> 02:03:06,400
Speaker 1: That's the problem. I think I would My first answer

2512
02:03:06,680 --> 02:03:08,800
Speaker 1: was the Dead in nineteen seventy two.

2513
02:03:08,920 --> 02:03:09,920
Speaker 2: Oh, that'd be great also.

2514
02:03:10,360 --> 02:03:13,080
Speaker 4: But then I was like, what if you what if

2515
02:03:13,120 --> 02:03:17,200
Speaker 4: you saw Miles Davis and like right when he was

2516
02:03:17,280 --> 02:03:20,520
Speaker 4: coming up like before kind of blue, that would be awesome.

2517
02:03:20,600 --> 02:03:24,240
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, just melt your face. It's a hard question.

2518
02:03:24,840 --> 02:03:27,680
Speaker 2: I go back into uh remember the Back to the

2519
02:03:27,760 --> 02:03:29,840
Speaker 2: Future when they were at the.

2520
02:03:32,240 --> 02:03:34,640
Speaker 3: At the dance from the movie Back to the Future

2521
02:03:34,880 --> 02:03:36,800
Speaker 3: and he comes out and plays Johnny be good by

2522
02:03:36,880 --> 02:03:37,640
Speaker 3: Chuck Berry.

2523
02:03:37,720 --> 02:03:38,960
Speaker 4: Because everyone stops.

2524
02:03:39,080 --> 02:03:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like, ah, your kids will love it.

2525
02:03:41,920 --> 02:03:43,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

2526
02:03:43,400 --> 02:03:45,400
Speaker 2: But I think there's also something to going back and

2527
02:03:46,680 --> 02:03:47,240
Speaker 2: back in time.

2528
02:03:47,280 --> 02:03:48,600
Speaker 3: I don't even know who it would be, but like

2529
02:03:48,680 --> 02:03:51,120
Speaker 3: seeing hearing something that you we don't even have a

2530
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:52,320
Speaker 3: recording of. Ryan.

2531
02:03:52,680 --> 02:03:54,520
Speaker 4: Thanks for coming on the show, man, Thanks for having me.

2532
02:03:54,600 --> 02:03:56,400
Speaker 3: This has been This has been really great. I love

2533
02:03:56,880 --> 02:03:59,160
Speaker 3: I'm a I started off as a fan, so I

2534
02:03:59,440 --> 02:04:01,200
Speaker 3: love which you're right. I love the stories you tell.

2535
02:04:01,240 --> 02:04:03,360
Speaker 3: I like how you weave that in and you're doing

2536
02:04:03,400 --> 02:04:05,680
Speaker 3: really important work in the world. You are doing important work, man,

2537
02:04:05,800 --> 02:04:06,560
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you.

2538
02:04:08,200 --> 02:04:09,760
Speaker 1: Thanks to Ryan for coming on the show and let

2539
02:04:09,800 --> 02:04:13,280
Speaker 1: me also note Ryan would like to revise his choice

2540
02:04:13,320 --> 02:04:14,760
Speaker 1: for the band he would like to see live. He

2541
02:04:14,840 --> 02:04:16,800
Speaker 1: came up with this idea right after we turned off

2542
02:04:16,840 --> 02:04:20,320
Speaker 1: the recording. His answer has been revised to the Doors,

2543
02:04:20,400 --> 02:04:23,520
Speaker 1: which I personally think is a better answer. Thank you

2544
02:04:24,080 --> 02:04:26,640
Speaker 1: for listening. We earn your feeds twice a week, so

2545
02:04:26,720 --> 02:04:28,760
Speaker 1: please keep an eye out for more. If you have

2546
02:04:28,800 --> 02:04:31,680
Speaker 1: a question for our Ask Michael Anything section, please send

2547
02:04:31,720 --> 02:04:34,960
Speaker 1: it to media at twopct dot com or drop it

2548
02:04:35,000 --> 02:04:37,200
Speaker 1: in the comments. We will try to answer as many

2549
02:04:37,360 --> 02:04:39,800
Speaker 1: questions as possible. If you want to send us an

2550
02:04:39,880 --> 02:04:42,600
Speaker 1: audio version of your question, or even a video version,

2551
02:04:42,720 --> 02:04:45,320
Speaker 1: we would love to run that and answer it on air.

2552
02:04:46,000 --> 02:04:49,680
Speaker 1: As always, please don't forget to subscribe and have fun.

2553
02:04:50,280 --> 02:04:50,720
Speaker 4: Don't die