1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear if our super producer, 4 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: mister Max nineteen nineties Williams. 5 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: Max, he loves the nineties, Williams. We all love it. 6 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: We lived the nineties. Yeah, mixed feelings about the nineties now. 7 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: I don't know, mainly good, mainly positive. 8 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: I'm still processing it. It's true, still too soon, still 9 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: take time. I beg, bullet, you're Noel Brown, and we 10 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: have we have long been mystified by the nineteen nineties 11 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: because it's something that is surprisingly long ago, but I 12 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: think still very present in culture today, like in cultural memory. 13 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 3: It left a mark, no question, it. 14 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: Left a mark. It left some jinkos, it left there. 15 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: But they're expensive. 16 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 2: They were expensive then. I mean, we can always round 17 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: the inflation calculator. But they were always a bit of 18 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: a luxury good. But yeah, the big floppy pants with 19 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 2: like built in chains and rings and stuff are like 20 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: hugely back with the Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids. 21 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, because they share that same cultural fascination with the 22 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: ridiculous history of. 23 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 3: The nineteen nineties. 24 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: It's it's sort of the way I think maybe we 25 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 2: feel about the sixties or the seventies, where we're like 26 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 2: nostalgic for an era that we never lived through. And 27 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: that is, you know, with the Internet and with all 28 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: the information out there and the ability to deep dive 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: into all this stuff and the algorithms of music, et cetera, 30 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: it's like you can feel like you were there in 31 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: a way, and there is this built in nostalgia for 32 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 2: a time that these kids. 33 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 3: Had no participation in. 34 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: And that is an excellent setup for today's episode. We 35 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: are exploring the nineteen nineties, especially what people call low culture, 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: and we're not doing this alone, Noel, we have a 37 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: returning guest, the legendary author and journalist and researcher Ross Benish. 38 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: You have heard him on our earlier episode, Ridiculous History 39 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: of Sex. 40 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 2: Man so bun that I miss that I still don't 41 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: know anything about sex. I don't even know how it works. 42 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: That would have been mega educational for her. It's pretty ridiculous. 43 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: You've You've read Ross's work in Entertainment weekly Esquire, You've 44 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: read him in Mental Floss, a personal favorite of Hours. 45 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: Pretty much any magazine or publication you can imagine. Ross 46 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 1: is also the author of nineteen ninety nine, The Year 47 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: Low Culture Conquered America and kick started our bizarre times. Ross, 48 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show Man. Thanks for the second date. 49 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 4: Hey, it's good to be back. And uh, I wish 50 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 4: I was wearing Jinkos for this one. You guys got 51 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 4: me thinking about how much denim are in those pants. 52 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: I owned a Jinko, just one, just one Jinko, just 53 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 2: a single Jinko, and it was not even particularly floppy. 54 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 3: It was just like a gene really with a slightly 55 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 3: wide leg. 56 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 4: With the tariffs though, in the amount of denim, I 57 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 4: could see the price rising. 58 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, nostalgia tacks. 59 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a college. 60 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. The uh it's funny that we're mentioning owning one 61 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: pair of Jinkos or one Jinko, because I think for 62 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: a lot of children in the nineties that was a 63 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,279 Speaker 1: that was a heady and heavy negotiation with the parentals. 64 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 3: You know what a creational Jinkos man it still is. Yeah. 65 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: Uh, and Ross, we had such a We had such 66 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: a great time with you and our fellow ridiculous historians 67 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: getting into a very PG thirteen episode about sex history, 68 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: and you came to us and said, guys, what do 69 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: you think about the nineties, And we immediately again went 70 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole of nostalgia. We want to talk 71 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: about so much stuff. 72 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: Nineties was all about sex, y'all. 73 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: Maybe we started this way. 74 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 3: Ross. 75 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: In your latest book, which was published just earlier this year, 76 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: you specifically call out the year nineteen ninety nine. Could 77 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: you tell us why and how you landed on that 78 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: date in particular? 79 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 4: Well, ninety nine is just sillier and more ridiculous than 80 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 4: the years around it, And part of that's because of 81 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 4: like Y two k P paranoia and all the silly 82 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 4: stunts that were done around the turn of the century. 83 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 4: But I feel like that era in general has been 84 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 4: really influential, Like the pop culture that was there has 85 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 4: influenced our society in a lot of strange ways that 86 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 4: we're going to dive into. But like, if you want 87 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 4: to write about something being over the top, ninety nine 88 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 4: is certainly more over the top than ninety eight or 89 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 4: oh one is. 90 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 3: It was the year of limp biscuit, it was the 91 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: year of voice Shock. Ninety nine. I mean, how much 92 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 3: more ridiculous than that does it gree now? 93 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: This song about it? 94 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: Dude? Right? He was looking ahead for sure. 95 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 4: So about the Prince song when it was New Year's 96 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 4: Day in nineteen ninety nine, like nineteen ninety eight, going 97 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 4: to nineteen ninety nine, MTV had Limp Biscuit playing that 98 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 4: song at midnight, you know, and they're not gonna have prints. 99 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 4: But like what's the sign of the times for nineteen 100 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 4: ninety nine, it's New Metal Baby. 101 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 2: Which is also back in a big way for better 102 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: or worse, largely worse. And I'm not quite sure if 103 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 2: people really like it or like it ironically. It's it's unclear. 104 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 4: It doesn't matter as long as they're getting attention at 105 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 4: the spot. 106 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 3: You know what. 107 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: And I say, whether or not you like something ironically, 108 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, you'll just like it. 109 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: And something ironic eventually just becomes a thing that you dig, 110 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: you know, like you and Hobo Johnson a million for nine. 111 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 2: I never liked him ironically. I disliked him very genuinely. 112 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 4: I liked the insane clown posse, and I know a 113 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 4: lot of people who follow them have an ironic appreciation. 114 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 4: But like when I know, like you know all the 115 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 4: words to the songs on the entire Great Malinco album. 116 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I guys went to oz Fest ninety nine. 117 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: I was there, Like, I mean, that's like that. They 118 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: should have written that into business. 119 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 4: Sounds come out of a thirteen foot tall toilet at 120 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 4: that one. 121 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 3: I was aft. 122 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 2: That was later because this they didn't play. Yeah, it 123 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 2: was I think it was a Black Sabbath headlines. I 124 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: remember like Slayer played I'm trying like Slipknot. That was 125 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 2: before they were big and I saw them they were 126 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: on the small stage. But boy, if you look at 127 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 2: a pictures of kids at those shows in those days, 128 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: what an incredible time capsule for this stuff we're talking about. 129 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And part of what we're dancing around here 130 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 2: is a call concept that you introduced this to off 131 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: air Ross, which is the idea of low culture. Could 132 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: you tell us a little bit about what what we 133 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: mean by low culture and what makes it ridiculous history. 134 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 4: So it's mostly just trashy entertainment, but the way like 135 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 4: I see it as it's the pop culture that is 136 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 4: the most mocked and ridiculed of its era. So like 137 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 4: when Biscuit, you know, would be on there, like Jerry 138 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 4: Springer was rated as having the worst show of all 139 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 4: time on TV Guide, so many people were trying to 140 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 4: cancel that show. Yeah, totally, the viewership was was through 141 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 4: the roof. 142 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: But like so much for Fraternity Test. 143 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: For the Praternity Test, okay, Springer was about the chair 144 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: combat though, right, maybe that was. 145 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 4: And the like you know, weird sexual triangles with family 146 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 4: members and the eccentric characters adults and diapers. 147 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, like k KK guy, not to get too into 148 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: it already, but like he was really just a product 149 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: of a lot of the daytime stuff that came before him, 150 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: like the Sally Jesse, Raphael's and Phil Dona Hughes of 151 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: the world. He just sort of elevated it to dare 152 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: I say, kind of like a perfectly packaged art form. 153 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, let's get let's get into it. Yeah, 154 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: daytime talk shows very much a genre of their time 155 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: and definitely fits your definition of low culture. Ross were 156 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: without dating, without putting you on the spot or dating 157 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: you too hard? Were you watching those? 158 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 5: I was? 159 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 4: But I was way too young from you know, the 160 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 4: suggested age. But so I was nine years old in 161 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,599 Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine, well actually ten for most of so 162 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 4: I was ten years old, and I've watched Jerry Springer 163 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 4: with my parents at night with Yeah, with my parents, 164 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 4: we thought it was funny as hell. You know, my 165 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 4: parents were old when they had me. My siblings are 166 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 4: you know, a lot older, and they had just given up. 167 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 4: So like, we're gonna, you know, nine thirty, Jerry Springer 168 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 4: comes on Fox forty two. 169 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 3: Uh, you know, we're gonna what part of the country. 170 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 4: Isn't the rule Nebraska cool. 171 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 3: To the flavor of the story. 172 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, we just had fun with it. Like it was 173 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 4: just like, you know, like we didn't take it seriously. 174 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 4: We're just laughing our ass off the whole time. 175 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: Now, this is interesting because Springer especially has a bit 176 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: of a narrative tie in with the format of wrestling 177 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: right in that it very much purports to be true, 178 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: and everybody kind of has a k fab nod and 179 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: wink about whether or not this is indeed reality. When 180 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 1: you were a kid watching these shows with your parents, 181 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: did you think these were real people? 182 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 4: I doubted they were real people. I actually believe more 183 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 4: in them being real people now than I did as 184 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 4: a kid. 185 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 3: Like that's what That's what I'm saying. They weren't they 186 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 3: were real people though, right, it was just like jujh. 187 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 4: I think for most of them, you know, I'm sure, 188 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 4: like you know, they they had thousands of episodes of 189 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 4: all these shows like Sally Jerry Ricky, they all had 190 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 4: thousands of episodes. So I'm sure there are plants, like 191 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 4: you know, staged almost actors. Yeah, I'm sure that actors. 192 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: Yeahs or like how court shows will have uh frankly 193 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: comedians and working actors come on as characters with a face. 194 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 4: They got to fill some airtime. Yeah, but there are 195 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 4: some genuine people in there, and you know that because 196 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 4: there are court cases that happen with some of these 197 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 4: guests that like the stuff that's involved in the case 198 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 4: is from their real life what they discussed on the show. 199 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 2: So they and people who got book deals, you know, 200 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: because maybe there was like I mean, this is almost 201 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: like mimetic content. Before that was a thing where you 202 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: would have these characters that would just penetrate the zeitguys 203 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: in that same before there really were like image macro memes. 204 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, like I think of cash me outside a Million 205 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 4: and now she's a big rapper, bad baby. Yeah. That 206 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 4: that was a little bit later than early two thousands, 207 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 4: but same concept. Mm hmm. 208 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. This is also, uh, this is funny because since 209 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: it's before podcasting, in a way, daytime talk shows were 210 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: like unhinged podcast. 211 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 2: They were long form, They were a single kind of 212 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: or maybe just segmented narrative structure. 213 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 3: They weren't SoundBite based. 214 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 2: The idea was that you were witnessing a thing happening 215 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: in real time that was supposedly you know, quote unquote authentic. 216 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 4: Yeah. 217 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: Yeah. The producers were the the hidden hand, right, They 218 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: were the ones who were off to the left of 219 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: cameras and saying, okay, chant this, chant this. 220 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 2: Well to that point, though, Russ, would you argue perhaps 221 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: that these daytime shows were like a precursor to reality TV, 222 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: because there's. 223 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: Certainly that same So what's the word I'm looking for? 224 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: Cadre of producers sort of manipulating things from behind the scenes, 225 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 2: but it just gets way more overt and don't give 226 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 2: a f about like maintaining any semblance of true reality 227 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 2: when we start seeing reality TV where everything's episodic and 228 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 2: edit it. 229 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, so they're very similar in a few ways. 230 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 4: You know. One of them is that they're they're ways 231 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 4: cheaper than scripted content to produce. So like the reason 232 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 4: why things like talk shows were sought after, or why 233 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 4: so many TV networks made reality shows in the late 234 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 4: nineties and or two thousands is because they were low 235 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 4: Like they were low grade production costs, like just bare bones. 236 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 4: You're filming people reacting to engineered situations, and the way 237 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 4: you would create a character like those, like whether it's 238 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 4: Jerry or Morey, they're playing like almost fictionalized versions of 239 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 4: themselves and they're aware of it. You see that same 240 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 4: thing when reality TV starts to mature, like someone goes 241 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 4: on the Real World season five, they know like what 242 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 4: the you know, stock type of characters are and how 243 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 4: they can play up to it to get more camera time. 244 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 4: So I think you know, when you if you watch 245 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 4: the Real Housewives and you see like the fights that 246 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 4: they have, you know, a lot of that is really 247 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 4: copied from the Jerry Springer playbook. 248 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: I actually a long time ago with a buddy friend 249 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 2: of the show, Paul Decant. 250 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 3: I think this is before he was working with us Ben. 251 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: He had a buddy who made these like sizzle kind 252 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: of pilots or trying to sell reality concepts, and I 253 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 2: worked on one as like a sound guy holding the boom, 254 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: and it was I mean that the name is just 255 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 2: the most tone deaf thing ever. It was about these 256 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: like wealthy white ladies living out in Buckhead, which is 257 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: like a bougie part of Atlanta, and it was called 258 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: they had a fashion line in their basement and the show, 259 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: I shit you not was called the Underground Runway. 260 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 5: Oh my god, well not everything's going to be a winner, right, 261 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 5: And they had a fiery Eastern European woman who they manufactured, 262 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 5: like getting a sex. 263 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: Toy sent in the mail to the house from an 264 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: admirer and opening it and everyone was a gast and 265 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: just like totally this trash you know, all that it 266 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: was absolutely made up. And the way they coach those confessionals, 267 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 2: it's pure fiction. 268 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 3: They are line reading. It is wild. 269 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: I've been on some pilots or sizzle things like you're 270 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: describing their null for a couple of shows we've done 271 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: in the past, and encountered the producer Sweetening firsthand. And 272 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: it isn't art. I would say it is a sith art. 273 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: It is a dark art, but an art nonetheless and 274 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: frank and biting, is it? 275 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 4: Yeah? 276 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to define that for anybody who doesn't know. 277 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: It's just cut up, like you know, use piecing together 278 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: lines where you cut away so you don't see the 279 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 2: person's mouth moving, and you can basically just combine different 280 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: takes or different things to make a sentence so that 281 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 2: suits your narrative. 282 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you have you have raw audio of someone saying, actually, 283 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: I like green tea, and then you have another clip 284 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: of them say, you know, I hate the Welsh, and 285 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: then you or something it would be more likely to 286 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: manufacture that I hate the Well, you know, you would 287 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: say I I love green tea, but I hate coffee, 288 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: and you would frank in bite that like you're saying 289 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: nol by splicing in things, so it sounds like I 290 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: love the British, but I hate the Welsh. 291 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: Boom game on, let's listen, get into a soccer hooligan 292 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: throw down. Yeah, I mean, can you talk a little 293 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: bit more about that, because I mean, I guess for 294 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: you the daytime trash TV is sort of a bridge into. 295 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 3: The absolute takeover of reality TV. 296 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 2: After I guess we're talking about Ozzy again, shows like 297 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: The Osbourne's. 298 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 4: Yeah So well, in the late nineties you start to 299 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 4: see a lot more reality TV on broadcast TV, like 300 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 4: you have Big Brother Survivors in two thousand. You know, 301 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 4: you have the reality game shows like Who Wants to 302 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 4: Be a Millionaire? Uh, those a lot of those happen 303 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 4: because there's a deregulation of the financial syndication interest rules 304 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 4: that allow TV networks to produce their own primetime series. 305 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 4: They don't. They no longer have to go and syndicate 306 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 4: them from elsewhere, and so that totally changes the incentive. 307 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: So I'm just sorry, I don't know about this at all. 308 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: Can you explain a little more about that law change. 309 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 4: Yes, So, from the seventies until the mid nineties, there 310 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 4: were these laws that prevented broadcast TV networks from owning 311 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 4: most of their primetime programming. They couldn't produce it themselves. 312 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 4: There was an anti monopoly law, so they would have 313 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 4: to go out and get their content from elsewhere. Once 314 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 4: they could produce it themselves, they wanted to make it 315 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 4: as cheaply as possible, and they just followed the same 316 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 4: playbook that the daytime shows already were doing, because the 317 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 4: daytime shows were all by syndicators. Yeah, Jerry Springer wasn't 318 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 4: on one TV network and dependent on where you live, 319 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 4: what Jerry Springer would be on, Like it could. 320 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: Be on as Fox thirteen, et cetera. 321 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 4: If you lived in you know, like the West Coast, 322 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 4: it could be CBS. If you lived in this sound, 323 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 4: that could be NBC. You might even have it on 324 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 4: two or three stations, just depending on what, like who 325 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 4: wants to license it. So you know, in the nineties 326 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 4: that deregulation, other deregulations happened that basically encourage these huge 327 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 4: media corporations to produce content as cheaply as possible, to 328 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 4: reach as many people as possible, to just go like 329 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 4: shallow and broad, and that encourages a reality TV boom, 330 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 4: and then later you get another boom because the writers 331 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 4: strike in two thousand and seven. 332 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And that's a that's a great tie in 333 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: where we're where we're on the nineties. And we have 334 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: to admit for anybody who even if you hate daytime 335 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: talk TV, that genre and that. 336 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 4: I proved what was successful though, like what exactly what's 337 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 4: sort of thele of the conversation is successful? 338 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: Right right? Few people, few studios have ever lost money 339 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: pandering to the lowest common denominator, you know what I mean? Unfortunately, 340 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: that is part of what these genres proved, and they 341 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: also they also, as you point out, they also made 342 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:26,719 Speaker 1: this tremendous cultural impact way beyond media. Right, we always 343 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: know that in the nineteen nineties and early two thousands, 344 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: a cultural hallmark was being big enough to be mentioned 345 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: on The Simpsons, Right, that's when you knew you made 346 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: it in media. Can you tell us a little bit 347 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: more about how daytime talk shows as a genre, how 348 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: they impacted the culture beyond just the world of television. 349 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 4: Well, you would see them like all over the place. 350 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 4: I'll just use Jerry Springer as an example. He would 351 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 4: be making cameos in like every movie at a time, 352 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 4: like the Austin Power sequel Spy Shagmy. The first scene 353 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 4: is Jerry Springer, like doctor Evil's on Jerry Springer and 354 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 4: he then he beats up like some KKK guys And. 355 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 2: Then this isn't that when it's there's like a pattern, 356 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: like his son comes out and then they get into 357 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 2: a fight and stuff, and he's all, like. 358 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 4: Anymore really ridiculous than an actual Jerry Springer. 359 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely, it was just really. 360 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 4: Something you would see on their show. But you know 361 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 4: they would be mentioned on teaching Miss Tingle like every 362 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 4: like so many movies from the late nineties early two 363 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 4: thousands mentioned them. Jerry Springer had a spring Break tour 364 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 4: Springer Break. He had merchandise all over the place. He 365 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 4: had a movie made about him. There was a book 366 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 4: that had the same name as the movie. He thought 367 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 4: about running for Congress, but he didn't because he they 368 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 4: said that he had too much baggage, which is hilarious. 369 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 3: Didn't he have a background in politics? 370 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 4: He did. He was Cincinnati mayor and city councilman. We 371 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 4: can get into that as well. But you know, Springer 372 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 4: was just really he had a mail ordered vhs too 373 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 4: out for TV that like set Records, Oh. 374 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,719 Speaker 2: Gosh, yes, do I remember that, of course, And it 375 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 2: was it came out around the same time as those 376 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: other really trashy like Girls of spring Break, Girl's Gone Wild, 377 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 2: Thank You, Yeah. 378 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 4: Got Wild tot for TV. 379 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 3: You definitely was in that same genre. 380 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 4: Yes, you're up after eleven o'clock watching cable. You would 381 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 4: see an infomercial for. 382 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 3: All the phone number get it. You know, I knew 383 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 3: some I knew some. 384 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: People like, oh my gosh, yeah, you mentioned the exact 385 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: time of the commercial. Were you at my house. 386 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 3: It was just it was all of us, man, we 387 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 3: were there. 388 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 4: These were franchises. They weren't just like on TV shows. 389 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 4: They were almost like intellectual property that would branch out 390 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 4: into its own universe. And then you know, I think 391 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 4: you would eventually see that style of I don't even 392 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 4: call it conversation. It's more like combat or just you know, 393 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 4: being ridiculous. It makes its way into other forms of television, 394 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 4: other movies, and then it's eventually seeps into politics when reality. 395 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 3: Read in circuses. 396 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 2: Man. I mean, it's totally like gladiator backt and that's 397 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 2: the lowest form of entertainment, you know, in ancient Rome 398 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: for example. But the funny thing is, you know who 399 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: else likes gladiator battles, rich people, smart people. 400 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 3: It's not It doesn't mean you're dumb. If you like 401 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 3: trash TV. 402 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 2: A lot of people genuinely dig it and they have PhDs. 403 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 3: That's what broad means. It means it reaches like everybody. 404 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a universal appeal because it appeals to things 405 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: that people love seeing, which is messy trouble at a 406 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: distance experienced vicariously. 407 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 2: It makes you feel a little bit better about you, 408 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 2: how well you've got your stuff together. 409 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I know who my kid is, so that 410 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. I think it really speaks to 411 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: what you're describing as a shock and awe approach to 412 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: the zeitgeist. Right, it doesn't have to be great. It 413 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: just needs to be ubiquitous. It just needs to be everywhere. 414 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: And we'd love to go back to the point you 415 00:21:55,480 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: noted about interaction with politics, because I would because I 416 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: read it there, guys, I would posit we are. 417 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 3: In peak that thing. This is the culmination only. 418 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: Because I would posit only because I read Ross's book 419 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: that this is where we start to see a big, weird, 420 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: muddy vin diagram of celebrities and politicians becoming increasingly similar. 421 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: You know, nineteen nineties was a heyday for current US 422 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: President Donald Trump as a media figure. 423 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 4: Right. 424 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 3: We had Jesse the body Ventura as well. We started 425 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 3: yeah please. 426 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, Jesse Ventura became governor in ninety nine. Trump actually 427 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 4: announced his first presidential run in nineteen ninety nine on 428 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 4: the Larry King Show. A talk show. Wasn't daytime talk, 429 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 4: but you know, it gives you a sense of what 430 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 4: that format was like. So he felt that was a 431 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 4: good time. 432 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: To just a lot high not high journalism, Larry King. 433 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 2: I mean, that's that is entertainment journalism. No shade on 434 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: Larry King, but the way that show was positioned, and 435 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 2: it was a meme kind of clip generating show that 436 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: was all about like entertainment, I think. 437 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't want to I'm very against body shaming, 438 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: but Larry King looked kind of weird, right. 439 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 3: Odd neck. That's just maybe. 440 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: It's the head proportions. 441 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 4: Anyway, I like Larry B. King from the B movie. 442 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 1: Jeez, I forgot about that. You're killing it with the references? 443 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 4: Was that nineteen ninety nine too, Now that was two 444 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 4: thousand I don't know, it was way after Seinfeld ended, 445 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 4: probably two thousand seven. 446 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 2: And just putting a pin in this, I do want 447 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: to get into some movies from nineteen ninety Oh yeah, 448 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: well we must. I think I've got a good one 449 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 2: that'll be a bridge from this topic. But yeah, please, 450 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: let's do talk about that political intersection. 451 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Is it true that originally in the first run 452 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: for I believe the Reform Party in nineteen ninety nine, 453 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: is it true that Donald Trump approached Oprah Winfrey about 454 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: being his possible VP. 455 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 4: Well, he don't know if he really approached her personally, 456 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 4: but he said he wanted her to be the VP. 457 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 4: Like I don't know how far that went, but he 458 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 4: is on record saying like he that was his dream VP. 459 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: Okay, so talk about low culture. Instead of approaching the 460 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: person directly, you just go on interviews talk about Oprah. 461 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 4: Maybe Yeah, I didn't find any evidence that Oprah ever 462 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 4: seriously entertained it. 463 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,719 Speaker 5: Yes, she was like delete this message. 464 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: So I love the setup we got here, going into 465 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: the halcyon nineteen nineties movies. You also note that a 466 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: couple of social critics called nineteen ninety nine the. 467 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 3: Best movie year ever? 468 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: Why is that? 469 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 3: And is that ironic? 470 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 4: So, you know, just the recap of nineteen ninety nine. 471 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 4: So for those who haven't watched those movies for a while, 472 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 4: you have you know, sixth Sense, Yeah, Fight Club, like 473 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 4: you have. 474 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 2: Virgin Suicides, Magnolia, Talented, mister Ripley, like it just. 475 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 4: Goes on on Green Mile, Iron Giant, like so many 476 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 4: great moves. 477 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 3: Holland Drive. 478 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: I mean, just to name a favorite and rip David 479 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 2: Lynch if I may really quickly, I just want to 480 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: drop one on you, just as a transition from the 481 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 2: reality show stuff and the way it just kind of 482 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 2: permeated the culture to film. 483 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 3: The Blair Witch Project. 484 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, definitely. 485 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 3: I mean because. 486 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 2: Obviously that was the first and probably most iconic. I'm 487 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 2: sure there are other examples of a truly handheld, meant 488 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 2: to be found footage slash documentary style thing that people, 489 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: myself included, genuinely believe might be real. 490 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 4: I mean, they made those may made it seem like 491 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 4: those kids are actually murdered. They wouldn't let them appear 492 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 4: in public, and like the whole market campaign was so innovative. 493 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 4: But you know, what I've read on the ninety nine 494 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 4: movies is that it's a confluence of things in the 495 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 4: movie entertainment industry that happened right then that made that 496 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 4: production possible. Like you had the indie studios still had 497 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,239 Speaker 4: free reign to do what they wanted to do, and 498 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 4: they had theatrical exposure and people were going to the 499 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 4: theaters to actually see movies that not just blockbusters. So 500 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 4: you had a lot of like I don't know what 501 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 4: you would call them, like mid budget movies that could 502 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 4: thrive in a way that they can't today. And then 503 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 4: you also had, you know, the huge studios making blockbusters 504 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 4: that were doing pretty well. You know, Toy Story too 505 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 4: did very well that year. 506 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 2: And not to mention that studios big and small were 507 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 2: willing to take a lot more big swings because DVDs 508 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: were still a hell of profitable. 509 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, you had other revenue streams. DVD's a hell a profitable. 510 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 4: It was also like syndication on TV was still very profitable. 511 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 4: So like even if you could take a big swing, 512 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 4: do a risky movie, and like, well HBO and T 513 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 4: and T are gonna you know, air it and pay 514 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 4: a big licensing fee because they still get you know, 515 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 4: millions of viewers every night, not like they do tonight. 516 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 2: So all of that is gone gone, Like truly, these 517 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 2: blu rays absolutely niche for like exclusively for the nerdiest 518 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 2: of collectors. 519 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 4: And like the licensing fees from streaming services are not 520 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 4: what they were. 521 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 2: The right excutive Spotify rates as a just an example, 522 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: you know, it's not that low, but it's great. 523 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: Even even streaming services now are encountering an issue. I 524 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: do want to take a stand for all the fellow 525 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: physical media nerds in the crowd. We gotta have it 526 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: if you can, you know, get it, get it on 527 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: the physical media because this era in the in the nineties, 528 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: which is still very physical media driven. As we've established it, 529 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: it creates. It was still part of what we call 530 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: it ownership society. You bought a thing and then it 531 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: was yours instead of streaming, which is basically kind of 532 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: a micro license to yourself to watch something until the 533 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: big dogs say you can no longer. 534 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 2: Even buying something on Amazon is is you're still just 535 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: streaming it off of their servers. And there is something 536 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 2: in the terms. I'm certain that you know caveats that. 537 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 4: They can still a move it if you buy it 538 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 4: on Amazon. That's happened to people. They could still remove 539 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 4: the movie from the library. 540 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: And I bet, I bet you can guess this bit 541 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: of trivia Ross. We talk about it on a couple 542 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: of different shows in the past. Do you know the 543 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: first book that was unceremoniously pulled from Amazon's Kindle service? 544 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 4: Oh man, no, I do not. 545 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: It is nineteen eighty four by Jorge my Gosh. After 546 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: people paid for it. It was pulled in with great 547 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, uh to do an opprobrium. Eventually Amazon put 548 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: it back. 549 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 3: It was an accident, right, wasn't it? Some sort of 550 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 3: glitch that's what they. 551 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 4: Okay, that's pretty on the note though. 552 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 3: Sure is. 553 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm fortunate at very least. 554 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 3: Uh. 555 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 4: I just want to make one point about the physical 556 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 4: media though we talk about ninety nine. That's actually ninety 557 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 4: nine is part of the most pivotal year and transitioning 558 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 4: to digital consumption of media because Napster and Tvo both 559 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 4: come out that year. 560 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 3: Oh. 561 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 4: They revolutionize on demand viewing, revolutionized file sharing, you know, 562 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 4: like creating your own library rather than what is just 563 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 4: coming in at you from like a you know, a 564 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 4: big radio station or a big TV network. 565 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 2: So yeah, and I think created some of the problems 566 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 2: that led to the lockdown of streaming and all of 567 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: the sort of like you know, applification of every network 568 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 2: because piracy, that's probably one of the most pivotal years 569 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: in piracy as well. 570 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: You wouldn't download a car if I could. If I would, 571 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: is this economy? 572 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 3: Are you kidding? 573 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 4: Yeah? I could be saving five hundred dollars a month 574 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 4: on that payment. 575 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: And this brings us to another point we'd love to 576 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: explore with you, Russ. After research on this book and 577 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: all of the work you have done, how do you 578 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: think the future will regard the nineteen nineties, oh, man, 579 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: just because you know, you're yeah, I don't want to 580 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: put you on the spot too much, but you're a 581 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: new father. You got to be thinking about the future. 582 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: Your kid is going to eventually look back at a 583 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: picture of you from the nineties. I go, Dad, Oh. 584 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 3: My god, don't think about it too hard, man, And 585 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 3: I'm I. 586 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 4: Think the nineties for a while were assessed as like 587 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 4: peaceful prosperity times, like, you know, we had a surplus 588 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 4: in the economy, we were you know, the US was 589 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 4: involved in skirmishes certainly, but nothing to the degree of 590 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 4: the wars that they had before or after. I think, like, 591 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 4: if we're going to like do you know, revision as 592 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 4: history down the line, I think the nineties are actually 593 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 4: gonna be viewed as more contentious time because of the 594 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 4: birth of the Internet and the way it disrupted media 595 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 4: and all of the like, you know, we think of 596 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 4: the nineties peaceful, but when when I like go back 597 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 4: into this research, I mean, man, when the Internet's come 598 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 4: in there are some heavy, like fiery debates in Congress 599 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 4: about regulating it. I think people forget that, you know, 600 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 4: Columbine happened, you know, in ninety nine, and there's a 601 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 4: big push to censor media. And you know, before that, 602 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 4: you know, you had all these other tragedies like Oklahoma City. 603 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 4: So you know, I think there's a dark undercurrent with 604 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 4: the nineties that's being more appreciated now than probably was 605 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 4: ten years ago. And I think, you know, if you 606 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 4: look back twenty years from now, the nineties, will you know, 607 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 4: really look seem as like this is what put us 608 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 4: on the path to where we are today. A lot 609 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 4: of it due to the digitization of communication and media. 610 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, nineteen ninety nine, it's such a bell Weather year, 611 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: just for like all the just I think of a 612 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: thing and then I look it up and then it 613 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: was in nineteen ninety nine. So David Bowie in a 614 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine interview with the BBC with Jeremy Paxman, 615 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 2: he's asked about the Internet. Pasman is a little more 616 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: like skeptical about its reach and its power and its potential, 617 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: and Bowie responds to his kind of, you know, not 618 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: being so sure that it's as big a deal as 619 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: everyone or as Bowie things. Anyway, I don't think that 620 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: we've even seen the top of the iceberg. I think 621 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 2: the potential of what the Internet is going to do 622 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 2: to society, both good and bad, is unimaginable, to which 623 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 2: Pasman retorts, the Internet's just a tool. Bowie says, it's 624 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 2: an alien life form and it is going to crush 625 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 2: our ideas of what mediums are all about. 626 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: And people were all people were prescient at this time, 627 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: that's for sure when you look back at what was 628 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: on folks mind. Similar to that Bowie conversation, we also 629 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: see so much emphasis on the turn of the millennium 630 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: right all through the nineteen nineties, in particular, people are 631 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: excited plus terror. 632 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, you were really genuinely concerned. 633 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: About that of moving into the twenty first century. There 634 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: were even conspiracies about the zipper manufacturer y two k 635 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: hy kk y kk yeah because it was two ky because. 636 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 3: They're gonna be outcast lyrics zipp yeah yeah. Yeah. 637 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: And we also saw, you know, we saw this in 638 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: hip hop. Two Bone Thugs and Harmony back in nineteen 639 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: ninety five, they released East nineteen ninety nine Eternal, which 640 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: is a banger for anybody who's in the older hip hop. Now, 641 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: what happens, what happens in the recovery period with the 642 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: move into the twenty first century. What happened to people 643 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: when they realized the nineties were over? 644 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 4: Well, might not have realized it until it was too late. You're, 645 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 4: you know, way past the the decade point, you know, 646 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 4: And I think people realized the party was over until 647 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 4: all the revenue had dried up from those you know, 648 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 4: media that they had been supporting for so long. 649 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: And are we talking about like dot com bubble type 650 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 2: stuff for like just just just maybe just those old 651 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 2: models just kind of being antiquated. 652 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 4: I was thinking more of the you know, the old 653 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 4: style of communication being antiquated. But but yeah, I mean 654 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 4: the dot com bubble, and I mean that's like two 655 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 4: thousand and one, two thousand and two, for sure, the 656 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 4: parties over. Yeah, yeah, those companies are being liquidated. 657 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 3: Mm hmmm. 658 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: We Oh, we're gonna get in trouble with our audience, 659 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: especially my girlfriend, if we don't mention some of the 660 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: merchandise fad obsessions of the nineties. Beanie babies, Ross, did 661 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: you ever have a beanie baby? 662 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 4: No? 663 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 3: Did you ever have a beanie baby? 664 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 4: I had a few, you had a few, Yeah, you know, 665 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 4: I didn't have like an attic full of thousands of them, 666 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 4: like some people did, but I had a handful of them, 667 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 4: and actually I still have a few in my house 668 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 4: that I let my kids play with because they're you know, 669 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 4: absolutely worthless. 670 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: Now, hey, hold on to them, you know what I mean. 671 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: Don't let this be Star Wars Action figure. 672 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 4: The tag, the tie tag is ready ripped off. No 673 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 4: going back, No. 674 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: Going back, We've gone too far. We also wanted to 675 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: shout out as gamer nerds some other things in culture 676 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: that you explore in your book. Nineteen ninety nine, this 677 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: was a big year for video games as well. Right, 678 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: is this the year the first Grand Theft Auto game 679 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: comes out? Oh? 680 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 4: It's it's when GTA two comes out, So it's the 681 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 4: first Grand Theft Auto sequel, but the first. 682 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 2: More like what we know as modern GTA. 683 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 4: Well wait, I would say the modern gt The first 684 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,959 Speaker 4: as we know modern GTA would be Grand Theft Auto three, 685 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 4: which was in two thousand and one. That's the Stay 686 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 4: Station two, that's right, But like I think Grand Theft 687 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 4: at two, and they also had a London Expansion pack 688 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 4: that came out in ninety nine. I found them to 689 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 4: be significant because, like you go from Grand Theft Ato 690 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 4: just being like a one off to like they're starting 691 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 4: to create a franchise on it, and it becomes the 692 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,399 Speaker 4: biggest franchise in in media really. 693 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 3: I mean Two's overhead view, it's like top down kind of. Yeah, 694 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 3: it's definitely not. 695 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,959 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, but yeah Tony Hawk pro Skater, like tons 696 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 4: of Pokemon games that did very well, Like gaming's really 697 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 4: in the social consciousness due to attempts to regulate and 698 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 4: Bannett falling Columbine. 699 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 3: Are we PS one at this point? 700 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: Yeah? 701 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 4: So yeah, we're PS one and sixty four nineteen ninety nine. 702 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 4: PS two is announced in ninety nine, but it actually 703 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 4: doesn't come out for a year later. First, Silent Well 704 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 4: you have, Dreamcast comes out in ninety nine, and Dreamcast 705 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 4: is actually pretty significant because it's the first system with 706 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 4: the built in modem. You can do online play on 707 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 4: Dreamcast ahead of its time. 708 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: Ross, I'm sensing a fellow gamer in the crowd. We 709 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: also have to mention our pals. Super Max, a bit 710 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: of an enthusiast the video games himself, is blowing us 711 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: up with some notes here, so Max wants us to note, 712 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 1: like you said, Noel, Silent Hill also the first super 713 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: smash bro g thank you for that, Max, and then. 714 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 2: We also just really quickly just took across over back 715 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 2: to the thing Max said as well. Another video game 716 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 2: was Star Wars episode one, The Phantom Menace, which was 717 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 2: the top grossing movie of nineteen ninety nine and not 718 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 2: very good. 719 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 1: One might argue, Will Will, We'll see, right, it's up 720 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: to future historians, but I think we're on the same 721 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,439 Speaker 1: page currently. Yeah, Phantom Menace is a really cool name. 722 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 4: You know, the taxation of trade Routes, which was, you know, 723 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 4: a very boring way to up a prequel trilogy. 724 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 3: Not the block. 725 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,760 Speaker 4: I gotta say this last year that that's become really elevant. 726 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 5: Man. 727 00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:58,760 Speaker 3: You're right. 728 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,959 Speaker 2: Isn't that more the second one where they're really talking 729 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 2: about the blockades and the trade routes? 730 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 3: Or is that in the I. 731 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 4: Think of the first one in the in the scroll 732 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 4: at the opening the movie talk about the taxation of 733 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 4: trade routes of course contribute to the clone Wars, So 734 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 4: it's in the. 735 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 2: Is the one where I think of the real like 736 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,720 Speaker 2: the heavy politics kind of like you're in the halls 737 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 2: of Parliament kind of moment. 738 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: Now I'm just imagining how George Lucas pitched that initially. 739 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,280 Speaker 3: I don't think he had to pitch it to anybody. 740 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 4: I want. 741 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, he said, they said, hey, how should we follow 742 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: up with this tremendous trilogy that you decided to start 743 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: in media arrests part way through and he said, what 744 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 1: do you guys think about taxation trade routes? That's a question, soul, George, 745 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: what if there's a menace, that's a fantom. 746 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,399 Speaker 4: We just weren't familiar enough with tariffs at the time 747 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 4: to appreciate where it was out prescient. 748 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 3: This is this is crazy. 749 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: What are as as we're starting to wrap up here, Russ, 750 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: What are some of the things that you think more 751 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: of us in the audience today should realize about the 752 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: nineties sort of speaking to your point about the contention 753 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: that kind of gets ignored. What's something people forget about 754 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties. 755 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, like, like we ready to discussed the contention, you 756 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 4: know with Columbine, the Internet and some terrorist incidents, Like 757 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,879 Speaker 4: it wasn't for the people going through it at the time. 758 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 4: It wasn't as peaceful and prosperous as we perceive it 759 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 4: to be afterwards, because we know how it ends. 760 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 2: Yea further than Woodstock ninety nine by the way not up, 761 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 2: but like that that is the perfect visual example of 762 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 2: all of those tensions meaning up and setting the world 763 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:40,720 Speaker 2: on fire. 764 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 4: And then another thing we didn't have time to get 765 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 4: too deep into. I just want to give out some 766 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 4: Juggalo love and say that, like, yeah, gathering in nineteen 767 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 4: ninety nine in same compost, he has always been an 768 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,760 Speaker 4: acquired taste. But they got like closer to mass culture 769 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 4: than they than they ever had since they. 770 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 3: Were beloved by the new metal crowd. 771 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean they played at Woodstock, they had platinum records, 772 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 4: they were wrestling for WCWNWWF before that. So like people 773 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 4: like just bring them up and they joke about them now. 774 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 4: But like they had that contentious lawsuit with Disney, yeah, 775 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 4: where they were kicked off Disney's record before it even released, 776 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 4: and that gave them all this attention and helped them 777 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 4: become a hit, and they were like, you know, kind 778 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 4: of a big thing for a little bit, which you know, 779 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 4: people forget about now. 780 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. They also they even they got more press, if 781 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,760 Speaker 1: we're going under the idea that any press is good press. 782 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: They got more press when the FBI deemed Juggalos a game. 783 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, that revived them in the popular press at least. 784 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: And we're seeing a as we established at the top, 785 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 1: we're seeing this revival of the nineteen nineties in general. 786 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: And we cannot thank you enough for your time to 787 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: Dave Ross. We also can't thank you enough for making 788 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: this kick ass book. 789 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 2: So fun man, such a great conversay. Obviously this is 790 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 2: red meat for both of us. So a pleasure to 791 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 2: chat with you about this. 792 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is fun as hell. I'd do it at anytime. 793 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,760 Speaker 1: Oh man, you're opening a door. 794 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 2: Step through into the ridiculous, into our ridiculous world. 795 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 3: No, I'm super down. 796 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 2: I think there's a million ways we could cut this, 797 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 2: and there's other topics. 798 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 3: It's funny that you should. We should. 799 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 2: It should be ninety nine though, because technically we made 800 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 2: a tacit sort of like agreement that are cut off 801 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 2: for what would. 802 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 3: Be considered history is nineteen ninety four. So you have 803 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 3: just broadened our window, my friend. Because now, but isn't 804 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 3: that the nature of history. 805 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,840 Speaker 2: The further you move into the future, the more recent 806 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,360 Speaker 2: history becomes truly history Podcast. 807 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: Twenty seventeen, So we could just keep moving it a 808 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 1: year year with a year. 809 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 3: There, You got exactly right. 810 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 2: Okay, boy boy, are we living through some now I 811 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 2: means you're hired. 812 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, please, please, please please do check out nineteen ninety 813 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: nine Into your Low Culture, Conquered America and kick started 814 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,760 Speaker 1: our bizarre times out now wherever you find your favorite books? 815 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: H Ross? Where can people go to learn more about 816 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: your work? And also, you don't have to answer this 817 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: last part any teasers on the next project. 818 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,240 Speaker 4: So more about my work, just go to my website, 819 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 4: Ross spinish dot com. I'm occasionally on Twitter, but a 820 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 4: lot of what I do on there is post college 821 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 4: football stuff, So I. 822 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,839 Speaker 3: Was gonna say, you're more of a reply guy, more 823 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 3: of a consumer. 824 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, not a ton of tweets. And my next 825 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 4: project is really just being with these dogs and kids. 826 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 4: I don't congra thank you. 827 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. 828 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 4: I got two little ones and then two hounds. And 829 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 4: I don't know when I'll have time to do another 830 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 4: book for quite some time, because I do have a 831 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 4: day job as well as an analyst, so my book 832 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 4: is like my second job and amazing. 833 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 3: We'll have to have you on for some analysts as well. 834 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: Absolutely, you have accidentally and hopefully consentually become our go 835 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: to expert on nineteen nineties culture and we can't wait 836 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: to have you back on the show. Ross, Thank you 837 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: so much. Thanks as well to our super producer mister 838 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,440 Speaker 1: Max Williams Alex Williams, his biological brother, who composed this 839 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: track It's True. 840 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 2: Chris Frosciotis Nives, Jeff Codes here in Spirit, Jonathan Strickland, 841 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 2: the Quizzer, A J. 842 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 3: Bahamas, Jacobs the Puzzler. 843 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: Big, big thanks to Rachel Big, Spinach Lance Big, Thanks 844 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,359 Speaker 1: to the rude dudes of Ridiculous Crime. If you like us, 845 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: you'll love them and Noel just big thanks to the nineties. 846 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, we love the nineties. We'll see you next time, folks. 847 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 848 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.