1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and this is an episode that we 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: are doing that I feel like it is one of 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: the most highly anticipated stuff Mom Never Told You episodes 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: in our history. In uh an episode that we did 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, now called Dear Ladies, we mentioned 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: the idea of doing a podcast on curly hair and 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: we were overwhelmed in the best possible way, with curly 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: haired women saying yes, please, please do an episode on 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: curly hair. Nobody gets it here, it is here, it 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: is and should we should? We start off by both 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: describing our our hair appearance for people who don't know 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: what we look like, which, if you want to know 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: what we look like, you can go to Instagram at 16 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: stuff I've Never Told You so many selfies Yeah the Internet. 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: Uh So. I was born with stick straight, fine, fine 18 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: fine blonde hair like fine or flyin No, totally, just 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: the first one, not the second one. I actually had 20 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: like a boy haircut for a long time because my 21 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: mother thought I would make my hair growing thicker, and 22 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: around the time I hit puberty, my hair turned a 23 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: lot darker and still was pretty fine. Um, but still 24 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: very very straight. And so now at thirty years old, 25 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: sitting in this podcast studio, right now, my hair is 26 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: reddish brown, still very fine. But I used an iron 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: to curl it. Oh, so it's got some wave, got 28 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: some wave. And none of this is natural at all. 29 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: My hair doesn't do this unless like you put me 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: next to the ocean or something idyllic like that, and 31 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: then it'll get a little bounce to it. So most 32 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: of the time you have straight hair, I have uh, 33 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: wavy hair. I guess how it could be described. It 34 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: sort of depends on the humidity. If it gets humid, 35 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: it can get sort of curly. When I was a kid, 36 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: I had dark ringlets, but not too many of them. 37 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: Just like every now and then, did you hear change 38 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: or sword of I mean, it just kind of depends 39 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,119 Speaker 1: on the length because I have a lot of hair, 40 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: but it's fine and prone to waves. So it literally 41 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: just depends on how it's cut, the styling products that 42 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: I might be using, and humidity. But I can make 43 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: it curly. I can make it curly, um, but I 44 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: wouldn't describe myself as having curly hair. So for curly 45 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: haired listeners. You know, we gotta admit we're a couple 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: outsiders talking about this, but um so so, first we 47 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: want to kick off with just a few things that 48 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: you had to say about the experience of having curly hair, 49 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: right and Kia wrote us and said, I've always had 50 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: blonde ringlets, and growing up, it has always been a 51 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: struggle to like my hair. For most of my life. 52 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: It's been the only thing about my looks that people 53 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: complimented me on. So I grew up thinking my hair 54 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: was the only beautiful thing about me and if I 55 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: didn't have it, I wouldn't be beautiful. Meanwhile, Emily writes, 56 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: I hate how the curly hair I usually see in 57 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: the media is always hot, curled, and highly stylized instead 58 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: of natural and even a little frizzy. I have curly hair, 59 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: and for the longest time, I felt like I had 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: to take a curling iron to my hair after blow 61 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: drying it straight first to get that perfect curl that 62 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: everyone else seemed to have. And Emily, I know exactly 63 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. It took me years to realize, 64 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: and the same kind of revelation is when we all 65 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: discovered the photoshop airbrushing exists. That the curls you often 66 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: see in ads are pre straightened and then post curled. Yeah, 67 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: because you'll see women with naturally curl the hair, or 68 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: we we know have naturally curly hair, like Sarah, Jessica Parker, 69 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman, people like this who their hair is this 70 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: beautiful tight curl that does frizz because it's hair, it happens. 71 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: And when you see them on the red carpet, if 72 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: they're wearing curls, it's always like that really straight, shiny, 73 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: like only half barrel curled hair. Yeah. Yeah, it takes 74 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: a lot of work to get picture of our perfect 75 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,119 Speaker 1: curls apparently. And then finally Danielle says, I have quite 76 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: curly brown hair and decided to retire my straighteners several 77 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: years ago and embrace my curls. I've always been surprised 78 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,799 Speaker 1: and sometimes annoyed with the amount of questions my curly 79 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: hair garners. People frequently asked is it natural? Do you 80 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: ever straighten it? And also are you Jewish? So people 81 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: have a fascination apparently with curly hair. What a what 82 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: a tangled web we weave? Interesting? Yes, a tangled web 83 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: of hair. So for us off. Why don't we kick 84 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: off with the science of curly hair versus straight hair, 85 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: because it's pretty fascinating. And I did not know, Caroline, 86 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: that whether you have curly hair depends on the shape 87 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: of your hair follicles, which of course is determined by genetics. Yeah, 88 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: if your follicle is oval, you're gonna end up with 89 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: curly hair, and if it's circular, you're gonna end up 90 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: with hair like mine, which just sticks straight. And that, 91 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: my friends, is determined by genetics. And this got me 92 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: thinking about my own family, because everyone on my dad's 93 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: side has straight hair. My mother has straight hair, but 94 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: it's very thick, but her brothers have curly hairs. I 95 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: don't know. I just didn't inherit that gene. Yeah, there 96 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: was a two thousand nine discovery published in the American 97 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: Journal of Human Genetics of what's called the Trichohian gene, 98 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: which is apparently responsible for creating curls. I guess it 99 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: promotes those oval shaped hair follicles. And according at least 100 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: two an article in the Telegraph reporting on this finding 101 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: curly hair, it's highly heritable and you get a ninety 102 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: percent chance of inheriting it. Because it's a dominant gene. Right, 103 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: here's a dominant gene and what makes me sort of 104 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: melancholy and blue reading that is like cool. So so 105 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: many people get this curly hair gene. It's a dominant gene. 106 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: We should love ourselves, we should always think we're beautiful 107 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: and revel and self acceptance. But you don't see that 108 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: many people with really curly hair, at least in the media, 109 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: at least in TV and in magazines and things like that. 110 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: And so there's all these women walking around out there 111 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: in the universe, mostly just Earth, who think that they 112 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: need to straighten their hair to conform to beauty standards 113 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: when really, ladies y'all are like the majority. Yeah, genetically, 114 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: genetically those dominant genes, it's true. But I do want 115 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: to quick side note on hair follical shape. Is there 116 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: a follical bit related to wavy hair? Do I just 117 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: have like squashed grapes over mind let or something? Yeah, 118 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: it's like a mixed bag. You've got mixed nuts for follicles. 119 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: It's like a trail mix up there. Um. But there 120 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: was also this condition reported on an NPR and it 121 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: doesn't have a specific name, and scientists don't exactly know 122 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: why it happens, but apparently for a very small group 123 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: of people, hair texture will fluctuate over time between curly 124 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: and straight and back again. Yeah. I have a friend 125 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: um that this happened to. She had always had curly 126 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: blonde hair, and not at puberty, but much later, like 127 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: after college, her hair straightened itself out. Well, there's one 128 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: one big reason actually why people are interested in the 129 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: genetics of your hair texture is because it would be 130 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: just a massive financial boon to the hair care industry 131 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: if they could figure out some kind of a pill 132 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: that you could take that would do just that switch 133 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: the hair texture. So instead of having to go through 134 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: all of the flat ironing or curling iron nonsense, I 135 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: could just pop a pill for six months and have 136 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: super curly hair, and then pop another pill and then 137 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: have super straight hair. And then we'd be living like 138 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: the Jetsons or something, or we could just all learn 139 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: to accept our hair right and I would hope that 140 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: that would come first before a hair changing pill. But 141 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: they also talked about that gene that you mentioned, the 142 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: Tricha Higlan gene um possibly being able to help forensic 143 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: experts out at crime scenes. So like if you know, like, okay, 144 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: well this was a man and he was however, whatever 145 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: other traits that they figure out. Oh well, and also 146 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: we can tell that he had curly hair based on 147 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:47,479 Speaker 1: that DNA evidence. Um well, when it comes to tangles, 148 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: curly hair, you win. There was a study published, believe 149 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: it or not, in the American Journal of Physics, which 150 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: confirmed that curly hair is in fact less tangle prone 151 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: than straight hair. Bec was They did all of this 152 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: like uh like three D modeling of how curly hair moves, 153 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: and it gets less tangled because curls move as a unit. Yeah. 154 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: Picture Felicity's hair blowing in the wind she walks down 155 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: the street in New York City. Um yeah. They found 156 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: that curly hair averages about only three tangles per head, 157 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: whereas straight hair averages more than five tangles. And let 158 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: me tell you, I must be an outlier because my 159 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 1: straight hair average is approximately thirteen point five million tangles. 160 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: Oh I think that's also related to how fine our 161 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: respective hair. No kidding, this this just like reading for 162 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: this podcast was so illuminating from my own head because 163 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: I mean, put me in a boat or put me 164 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: in a car with an open window and I'm just 165 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: like you will definitely see me sitting with my hands 166 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: over my hair the entire time, because if I were 167 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: to then step out of the moving vehicle, it would 168 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: be not a pretty sight. Caroline. If I could put 169 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: you on a boat, girl, I would. Well, it's you 170 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: know the scene in Bridgetense Diary when she and Hugh 171 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: Grant are driving up to the countryside and he's in 172 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: a convertible and she loses her head scarf and she 173 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: shows up to the hotel and her hair is like 174 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: a giant bird's nest. Is that you? Well? You and 175 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: I both mentioned humidity and how it can change our 176 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: hair shape, and I'm sure a lot of people listening 177 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: experience the same thing. There was an article in Smithsonian 178 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: magazine talking about why it is that humidity promotes that 179 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: frizz factor, and it's because humidity obviously contains water molecules, 180 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: which then promote hydrogen bonds between the keratin proteins that 181 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: make up our hair matter. And so those additional hydrogen 182 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: bonds will ultimately cause our hair to fold in on 183 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: itself at the molecular level, which amounts to frizz. Yeah, 184 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: I mean hair is super susceptible to humidity. They're even 185 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: tools that use a hair to figure out how humid 186 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: it is outside, although those might be tools from like 187 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: the turn of the dawn of the time. Anyway, No, 188 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: I yeah, I this humidity for as straight as my 189 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: hair is naturally, if I have been heat styling in 190 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: a lot and it's super damaged, then I am very 191 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: susceptible to humidity and my hair will curl up and 192 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: I will look like a poodle. And so in the study, 193 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: they're looking at the different types of curly hair, and 194 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: they're talking about how typically we designate only three types 195 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: and it's according to race, whether you're Asian, Caucasian, or African, 196 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: and they're just thinking there's gotta be more to it 197 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: than that. Yeah, So they sampled hair from twenty two 198 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: countries around the world and yielded actually eight curliness types 199 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: based not on where you're from, but the number of 200 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: curl crests in the individual hairs. Because I mean, if 201 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: you look at just say African hair, there are different 202 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: types of textures in terms of how tightly coiled the 203 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: hair is. You might have larger whirls as they're called, 204 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: or tighter curls, and so it was kind of a 205 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: cool study basically saying, hey, there's actually a lot more 206 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: diversity within curly hair than we usually recognize. So they 207 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: now say that there are these eight different kinds of curls, 208 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: and um, it reminded me of this quote from a 209 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: Time magazine article by Jeffrey Kluger talking about the physics 210 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: of curly hair and how it moves. And it just 211 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: goes to show how sort of fascinatingly complicated curly hair 212 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: can be. Uh, he writes quote, But a curly hair 213 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: shaft is defined by more than its shape. It also 214 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,359 Speaker 1: has its own thickness, stiffness, and weight, which is particular 215 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: to the person. The actual numbers of hairs per square 216 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: inch on any individual scalp and differ from that of 217 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 1: another person too, and that greater or lesser crowding may 218 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: also play a role. So really, even with those eight 219 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 1: curliness types that the study identified, you could then subdivide 220 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: that into an infinite number of possibilities for curlinus texture. Yeah. Well, 221 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: I mean we've talked a lot about different types of 222 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: curly hair and the physics of it, which is so interesting. 223 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: I would never think of hair and physics in the 224 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: same sentence, but we haven't talked about the sad fact 225 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: of women working so hard to change their hair. So 226 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: I first noticed this flat ironing trend becoming something that 227 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: like everybody was doing specifically in high school. And it 228 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: might have just been because I had been homeschooled in 229 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: middle school, but it was around maybe ten or eleventh 230 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: grade that the pretty girls, in particular, the ones who 231 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: took the best care of their their beauty maintenance, would 232 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: get their hair are professionally straightened. They would get high 233 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: end flat irons. I remember going over to my friend's house, um, 234 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: and remember I just have basic wavy hair. It still 235 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: sits relatively flat on my head, going over to her 236 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: house and her telling me that my hair was not 237 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: acceptable for going out to whatever party we're going to 238 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: go to, and sitting there in her flat ironing my 239 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: hair for like thirty minutes to achieve this specific look. 240 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: I feel like we've trended away from flat iron hair, 241 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: and we're also seeing more acceptance of natural hair African 242 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: American natural hair um as. I think our definition of 243 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: what beautiful hair looks like is thankfully expanding, But the 244 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: tyranny of the flat iron, Caroline, Man, have you ever 245 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: flat ironed your hair? Oh? Yeah, that's how that's actually 246 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: how I curl it too, is using a flat iron? Oh? 247 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: Doing that trick? Yeah? Um? But no I well, I 248 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: do because it's a cycle. Man Like, the more you 249 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: heat style it, the more it damages your hair, and 250 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: the frizzier your hair gets, and then the more you 251 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: need a flat iron had to make it straight so 252 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: that it's not a frizz ball. So in the hair 253 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: care companies grow richer by the day. Man, Yeah, ghd 254 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: with your flat irons, cheese, just take my whole bank account. 255 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: Why don't you. Well, clearly women have had curly hair 256 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: since we have had hair on our heads. But let's 257 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: look a little bit at the cultural history of curly 258 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: hair when we come right back from a quick brick. So, 259 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: writing in the Encyclopedia of Hair, which is a fascinating 260 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: resource by Victoria's Sharrow, she writes about how naturally curly 261 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: or frizzy hair has gone in and out of fashion 262 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: for centuries, if not longer. But while all this is 263 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: going on, women in particular have always spent as much 264 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: time trying to curl their hair as to straighten it, 265 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: because thanks to the rise of fashion and us trying 266 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: to look certain ways based on fashion trends, it seems 267 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: like we've often tried to achieve looks that are part 268 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: straight and part curly. For instance, going back to the 269 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: latter half of the nineteenth century, when women would smooth 270 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: and pin up their long hair, but then curl the 271 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: fringes or their banks to get those little little sauces 272 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: curls on the side, so like any prom hairstyle or well, 273 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: it's funny like talking about half straight and half curly. 274 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: I mean, if you read a lot of women's fashion 275 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: magazines and they're telling you they're giving you instructions on 276 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: how to give yourself those big bouncy waves, a lot 277 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: of them. And I read a lot of women's magazines. Uh, 278 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: they will tell you to not curl like the top 279 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: part of your head and to leave it straight to 280 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: your ears and then just curl the bottom part. So 281 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: the more things change, Kristen exactly well. And apparently when 282 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: it comes to hair as a fashion statement and us 283 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: following these fashion trends, we might have Queen Elizabeth and 284 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: her curly hair to thank for kicking all of this 285 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: off in the seventeen hundreds. Rose Whites, who has studied 286 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: the sociology of women's hair, talks about how uh, Queen 287 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: Elizabeth the First wore her naturally curly hair short, and 288 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: thus wealthy englishwomen at the time followed suit, and so 289 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: by the seventeen hundreds women were choosing their hair based 290 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 1: on fashion, and that trickled down from the upper to 291 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: the lower classes as well. That is something I've never heard, like, 292 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: I have literally never heard anything about Queen Elizabeth starting 293 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: a hair trend with short, curly hair. Well, it seems 294 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: like we have those queens in England to think for 295 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: all sorts of fashion and traditions, such as Queen Victoria 296 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: with her white wedding dress and her underwear and her underwear. True. Well, 297 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: moving on to the nineteenth century, many girls at this 298 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: time we're wearing those long drop curls like Christena's talking about. 299 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: And also during this time you get the first chemical 300 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: straightening products, including something called curly queue, and women were 301 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: going to all sorts of lengths to to straighten their hair, 302 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: including things like tying it down with cloth to pull 303 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: it out straight. They would also oil it and apply 304 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: a hot iron or run a hot metal comb through it, 305 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: and why do we have to suffer so the tyranny 306 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: of the straight hair I'm telling you. Um. In the 307 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds, the first modern flat irons are invented, 308 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: and it is actually Scottish lady Jennifer Bell Showfield who's 309 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: credited with inventing the first hinged two plated iron in 310 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve. Thanks a lot, Lady Schofield. Well, I mean 311 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: I would much prefer a flat iron though to oil 312 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: and a hot metal comb. Well, speaking of oil and 313 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: hot metal combs, this is a technique particularly associated with 314 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: African American hair and straightening it. And in this podcast, 315 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: where this is sort of an umbrella episode on curly 316 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: hair in general, we planned to come back and do 317 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: an episode looking specifically at African American women and their 318 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: hair and natural hair and a lot of discrimination that 319 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 1: goes with it and longstanding racism because when it comes 320 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: to women straightening their hair, particularly in African American communities, 321 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: there's such an ugly history of racism tied up with 322 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: that because of the preference for Northern European features with 323 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: lighter skin and long, smooth or just softly curling hair. Yeah, 324 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: I mean social attitudes and advertisements for decades and decades 325 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: and decades and decades convinced so many African Americans in 326 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: our country that they needed to use palmaids, creams, hot 327 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: combs to make their hair look the way it quote 328 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: unquote should. That African American hair as it grows naturally 329 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: from your head is something that denotes dirtiness or laziness 330 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: or just not conforming to social standards. And in fact, 331 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: there are some historical records this is coming from the 332 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: Encyclopedia Hair that showed that if female slaves happened to 333 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: have longer or smoother hair, some jealous slaveholding wives would 334 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: force them to or actually shave themselves those women's heads 335 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: so that they would be considered less attractive. That is 336 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: right there, the power of hair, and when it comes 337 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: to African American hair care, I mean, these kinds of 338 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: products and straightening methods did foster a lot of cottage 339 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: industries up to Madam C. J. Walker's hair care empire, 340 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: which she started out with The Wonderful Hair Grower. And 341 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: the name might be familiar to a lot of podcast 342 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: listeners because we've mentioned her before, as she is the 343 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: first self made African American female millionaire in US history. 344 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: But the sort again, the tyranny of the straight hair 345 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: um has really ugly underbellied to it. As Curly Nikki 346 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: wrote about over on her blog, which is a great resource. 347 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: She writes, quote, in the eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds, kinky, 348 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: curly hair was deemed inferior, ugly, and unkempt in comparison 349 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: to the flowing, bouncy hair of people from other cultures. 350 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: The aricatures of blacks that surface during that time in movies, 351 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: children's books on laundry, detergent, and food products were commonplace, 352 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: and they taught blacks and whites alike to loathe the 353 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: appearance of black hair and to associate it with dirtiness, 354 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: unruling us, and even character traits like laziness and dishonesty. Right, 355 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: talk about like some loaded hair. Yeah, And so all 356 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: of this is in this pursuit of what is supposedly 357 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: socially acceptable and necessary. But when we get into the 358 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties and we have things like the Black Power movement, 359 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: we have a civil rights movement, we are starting to 360 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: see more Afros because they're develops this cultural association between 361 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: letting your hair grow naturally and displaying your hair in 362 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: a way that is not um, trying to submit to 363 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: some white Northern European ideal and then being proud of 364 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: your hair by actually growing it out. But because it 365 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: is during this time and a lot of white people 366 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: were a little iffy about this black power movement that's arising, 367 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: that hair also became associated with counterculture that really tended 368 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: to kind of upset or worry the establishment. Yeah, so, 369 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's long been this controversy about like 370 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: the appearance of natural hair, but that's also led to 371 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: now centuries of women essentially being forced in a way 372 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: based on you know, these cultural biases and outright racism 373 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: too undergo these treatments to straighten their hair in order 374 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: to conform to a particular look that we find, you know, 375 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: more and more acceptable and more respectable. Well, one woman 376 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: who is having none of it anymore is Lorraine Massey. 377 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: She's a hairstylist, a curly haired hairstylist who wrote the 378 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: book Curly Girl, which is almost like a bible for 379 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: curly haired women, talking about how to take care of it, 380 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: where to go get your hair cut, how to do it, 381 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff, and she talks about how 382 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: women with curly hair have fought with it all their lives. 383 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: She talks about curly haired girls being teased in school 384 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: and at home for not fitting in with that socially 385 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: acceptable appearance and an ending up feeling unsophisticated, silly, and juvenile. Yeah, 386 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: I mean not just among the African American community, but 387 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: clearly from the listener mail that we have gotten asking 388 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: for this podcast topic, like women of all sorts of backgrounds, 389 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: with all sorts of curly hair textures have experienced all 390 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: of these tangle up cultural biases regarding their hair. We have, 391 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: And I was surprised to not find a single paper 392 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: looking at these perceptions that people have of curly hair, 393 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: because they are all sorts of papers on like, well 394 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,959 Speaker 1: what do people think of women with you know, blonde 395 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: hair versus red hair versus brown hair, etcetera, But not 396 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: so much looking at just the texture of hair in 397 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: a broadway, there are lots lots of papers looking obviously 398 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: at discrimination and natural hair among African American women in particular, 399 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: but anecdotally at least, it's like every woman with curly 400 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: hair has a horror story of being of people assuming 401 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: that she is one way or another, and people like 402 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: Bravo's Millionaire Matchmaker and all around kind of terrible human 403 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: being Patty Stinger are sort of the reasons why you know, 404 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: life can be awful if you have curly hair. She 405 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: always talks about on the show how Or she at 406 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: least always tells the women who she's setting up with 407 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: her millionaires that they need to have straight hair. If 408 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: you walk into her thing, into her office and you 409 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: have curly hair, she always says, straighten it. And she 410 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: told the New York Times quote, I just know that 411 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: to be a dream girl, you need straight, long, ilky, 412 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: humidity resistant hair, which Patty that here scientifically doesn't exist. Um. 413 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: But do you think, I mean, does she tongue in 414 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: cheek at all? No? No, God, no, I've watched. I'll 415 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: confess I've watched enough Millionaire Matchmaker to tell you she's 416 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: not being tongue in cheek. And I think it is 417 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: more broadly speaking, because there is this association we have 418 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: between larger curly hair and it's being you know, being 419 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: messy and wild and perhaps even dangerous. And there's this woman, 420 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: pennyhow Jolly, who is an art history professor who studied 421 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: women's hair in art, and she was talking to McClane's 422 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: about how artists frequently depict Eve, for instance, with sinuous curls, 423 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: alluding to the notion that you've seduced Adam into sin 424 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: You have that that wild curly hair, watch out, she's dangerous. 425 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: Or you have, for instance, Medusa and her hair of snakes. 426 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: It looks like, you know, large curly hair going on, 427 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: and how oh Medusa dangerous woman. Now if you look 428 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: at her hair, you'll turn to stone. That's right. Well, 429 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: so ABC News is Taryn Winter. Brill decided to test 430 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: people's perceptions about curly and straight hair, specifically men's perceptions 431 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: of specifically her hair. So she had these pictures of herself, 432 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: one with straight hair, one with curly hair, interspersed with 433 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: actresses and got these men to describe her and rate 434 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: her on various levels of different attributes. So, when she 435 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: had curly hair, they described her as a teacher, as warm, average, frazzled, 436 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: and giddy. When she had straight hair, when they saw 437 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: the picture of her with straight hair, she was described 438 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: as classic, pretty, nice, centered, and friendly. Her total attractiveness score, 439 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: her total score overall jumped from twenty five out of 440 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: fifty to thirty one out of fifty. But it's funny 441 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: that in person, when she actually went to job recruiters, 442 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: they preferred her as the curly haired version. They said 443 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: that she was almost too cocky when she had straight hair. 444 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,479 Speaker 1: Oh goodness. Yeah, well that also it is probably just 445 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: digging into issues of women's perceptions or perceptions of women 446 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: in the workplace in general. God help us if we 447 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: look cocky, yeah, via our hair somehow, I don't know. Um. 448 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: There was one thing too that Curly Nikki brought up 449 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: on her blog but I didn't find any study on 450 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: but would be fascinating to look at, and it was 451 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: something that we talked about in our movie Magical Makeover 452 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,719 Speaker 1: episode as well as our podcast on Women and Glasses. 453 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: But sort of how curly hair is often used as 454 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: a symbol on the big screen to signify women who 455 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: might be sexy, wild, unkempt, zaney, and you might see 456 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: character's hair get straighter as the woman figures out her 457 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: life sort of like a pretty woman. Okay, Julia Roberts 458 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: when she's a prostitute, has that gorgeous red, curly hair 459 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: and by the end she still has gorgeous red hair, 460 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: but it is much straighter and as much more you know, 461 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: if you will exactly so, I mean someone who also 462 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: has curly hair in a movie, Kristen would be Glenn 463 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: Close and fatal attraction. Maybe not the most flattering portrayal 464 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: of a woman with curly hair, But then, like I 465 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, you've got Felicity, who, even though I have 466 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: straight hair, she's like a hair hero to me because well, 467 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: her and whoever in the show decided to let her 468 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: keep her curly hair for the show. But I mean, 469 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,959 Speaker 1: I think it's so amazing to see a woman with 470 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: hair like that on television because you just don't well 471 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: do you think though, that that ties into her portrayal, 472 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: at least in the first season, as being a little 473 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: bit quirky, quirky, naive, a little earth a Yeah. Sarah 474 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: Jessica Parker in Sex in the City is also an 475 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: interesting case study because obviously she has you know, Carrie 476 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: Russell esque curly hair, although to a to a less degree. 477 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: And I feel like her. I mean, her hair is 478 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: hugely important to her character as Carrie Bratch on this show. 479 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: But she's you know, she's a sex columnist. She's fun, 480 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: she's wild, and there is one season later on the 481 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: show where she does some hair straightening and it's just 482 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: it's weird. It's almost like strange to see her on 483 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: screen with such straight hair. Um. But I feel like 484 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: that's part of it too, that's like part of her, 485 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: just like outward wildness, and it triggers something in you 486 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: as the viewer. It's it's a it's a symbol, it's 487 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: a sign. It's like, Okay, well, I'm supposed to think 488 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: this about this person. Yeah, because she's sort of like 489 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, look at you. You have this 490 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: curly hair and you're brave and you're this modern liberated woman. Yeah, 491 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: or you're a sad sack like Anne Hathaway's character and 492 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: the Princess Diaries, and you need to be made over 493 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: and straighten that hair. Stat Yeah. I think that's the 494 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: most problem The problematic thing with all of it is 495 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: when they're like, Okay, this is the way that we 496 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: show how a woman is getting herself together. Her hair 497 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: becomes much straighter. And I think when it comes to 498 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: UH African American women and natural hair on screen, you know, 499 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: I think, well, first of all, it's just so rare 500 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: to even see. But usually if you do see it, 501 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: it probably is in a character who might be more 502 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: confrontational and louder and a bit more out there, as 503 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: physically demonstrated by her hair that might be out there. Well, 504 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, we we've touched a little 505 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: bit on hair in the workplace. Uh, she sort of 506 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: go off of what you were just talking about, Kristen. 507 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,239 Speaker 1: I have a friend of mine who, um let her 508 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: hair grow out naturally and it's be beautiful. But her 509 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: first day interviewing for a job at her company, she 510 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: had her hair pulled back so it was kind of 511 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: poofy in the back, but it was very slicked back 512 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: up front, and her future boss told her that, well, 513 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: I expect that you'll wear your hair like this every day. 514 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yeah, oh yeah, my friend. That did 515 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: not sit well with my lovely friend. Did she continue 516 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: working there? She did. She not only accepted the job 517 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: and continued working there, but for her first like a 518 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: year or so, she did pull her hair back very 519 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: tightly into a bun like every single day, and it 520 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: wasn't until she'd worked there for a little while that 521 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: she slowly started like, Okay, well, maybe I'll just wear 522 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: it like half up, or maybe I'll just do like 523 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: half bread or whatever, and to the point where finally 524 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: she was like she was still too afraid of making 525 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: the boss angry to like let her hair fully out. Yeah. 526 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: Glamour magazine years back now had to issue a public 527 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: apology because in some kind of beauty Dues and Don't 528 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: column that they had regarding hair in the workplace, the 529 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: author specifically said that black women should keep their hair 530 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: as subdued as possible to maintain a professional look in 531 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: the workplace. And and this is something though, this idea 532 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: that curly here is just unprofessional in general, whether you 533 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: are you know, a black woman with natural hair or 534 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: even just you know, a white woman with naturally curly 535 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: hair like Carrie Russell for instance, Constantly you hear this 536 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: advice that like, oh, you know what, you're gonna want 537 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: to straighten that for interviews, You're gonna want to keep 538 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: it slick. And um, this was something that Megan mccartell, 539 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: for instance, who is a very esteemed reporter for The Atlantic, 540 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: talked about. She said, moreover, for better or worse, smooth 541 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: hair has become synonymous with professional in America and Jessica Kupferman, 542 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: talking to The grind Stone, talked about how curly hair 543 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: seems to represent a lack of seriousness, which goes against 544 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: the slick backed, power suit look women are supposed to 545 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: aspire to in the corporate world. Perhaps it is, she thinks, 546 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 1: because curls are so unabashedly feminine. I buy that theory. 547 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: I I buy that people look at curls and think 548 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: that it's too like you're you're being too casual and 549 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: feminine and you need to be more serious with your 550 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: slick back hair. I do not think that is the case, though, 551 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: When people look at black women's hair and say, oh, 552 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: you know what, your your natural hair, that's simply too feminine, 553 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: that is not that That's not what's going on in 554 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: their head, right No, I yeah, absolutely, And you know 555 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: I mean L in addition to glamor l magazine is 556 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: recommended straightening your hair to look more professional. But in 557 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: addition to that, they also said that straight hair feels 558 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: feels more groomed, and it can be slimming. Yeah. I've 559 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: seen the straight hair can be slimming thing. There was 560 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: a woman writing a column in the Near Times basically 561 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: as her public manifesto embracing her red curly hair, and 562 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: she had to do a photo shoot and the stylists 563 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: was like, Oh, we're gonna straighten your hair. It'll take 564 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: off ten pounds, and she, you know, she didn't. She 565 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: said she went home and her husband was like, what 566 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: they do to your hair like that? Um? But so 567 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: clearly we have some cultural biases and stereotypes against curly 568 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: hair in specific applications. I feel like, if you know 569 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: it can be okay as long as it is in 570 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: this stylized medium between straight hair and curly hair, if 571 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 1: you've already washed it and straightened it in her now 572 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: curling iron ing it into what we consider to be 573 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:54,240 Speaker 1: picture perfect curls, then it's okay. That's so much work. 574 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: It is so much work. I know. I know a 575 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: lovely young woman who has beautiful, naturally curly hair. It's 576 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: dark brown, so pretty. Girlfriend straightens it every day, every 577 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: even if she's wearing it up like in a bun 578 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: or a ponytail or something, she still straightens it every day. 579 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: That's that's a lot of time. That's a lot of time. 580 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 1: You could be president by now, could to be Um, Well, 581 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 1: there was a study that I'm sure we'll revisit when 582 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: we do our episode on black women and hair. It 583 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: was a study published in the Duke Journal of Gender 584 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: and Law Policy called the Hair Dilemma, and it was 585 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 1: specifically looking at how women of color deal with their 586 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: hair in the workplace, and they concluded that women often 587 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: wear their hair in a way to downplay their ethnicity. 588 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: You have Asian women, for instance, actually perming their hair, 589 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 1: getting away from their typically straight hair to look less Asian, 590 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: or Black women straightening their hair, and even Chicano women 591 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: chopping their hair short um in order to sort of uh, 592 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: downplay I guess it and maybe mitigate people's internal racist 593 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: tendencies to make themselves stand out in a more positive 594 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 1: light in the workplace. You're like, don't worry, you can 595 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: stay racist and weird. I'll curl my hair or straighten 596 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 1: my hair depending just for you. Yeah, I mean, but 597 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,439 Speaker 1: but the fact of the matter is, I mean, there's 598 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 1: obviously a reason why this is happening, and it's because 599 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: clearly discrimination must be at work. It must improve chances 600 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,479 Speaker 1: if you look a specific way, well, especially like my friend, 601 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: if you got a freaking job interview and the one 602 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 1: of the first things the boss says to you after 603 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: you've essentially nailed the interview, because she's a freaking genius, 604 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: UM is like, well, so you're gonna you're gonna wear 605 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: your hair bag like that? Right? Yeah? I mean, come on. 606 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: And it's partially thanks to as well, the initiatives of 607 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 1: people like Curly Niki or Francesco Ramsey, for instance, um 608 00:37:54,880 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: who is known as Chesscalle on YouTube, who have helped 609 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: raise the visibility and appreciation for natural hair and how 610 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: beautiful it can be. Oh and also um Aquila Hughes, 611 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: who has a wonderful YouTube channel called It's Aquila Obviously, 612 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: who actually did a video with has this gorgeous hair 613 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: and the day that we shot our video together, she 614 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: was really boned because she had had to get it 615 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,280 Speaker 1: flat ironed for another hair care video that she was doing. 616 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: She was like, my hair should be much larger than 617 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: it is today. Um. So, I think that our idea 618 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: of what hair should look like is expanding, but clearly, 619 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,720 Speaker 1: at least judging by what we've already heard from curly 620 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: haired listeners, there is still a ways to go in 621 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: order to take down the tyranny of the flat iron 622 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: and straight hair. Not that there's anything wrong with straight hair, 623 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: but but if that demand that it should be straight, Yeah, 624 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 1: there's social pressures and junk like that, but there's also 625 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, internal pressures, And I mean, why am I, 626 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: Why am I using a damaging straight iron to curl 627 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: my hair? Well, that's the thing. You could just write 628 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: it off as well, it's just fashion. But I think 629 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: clearly from what we've just been talking about for the 630 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: past thirty plus minutes, there's a lot more to it fashion, 631 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: and I would like to I mean, I hope in 632 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: my heart of hearts that other women out there have 633 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 1: not experienced the kind of weird, awkward, awful job interview 634 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: thing that my friend did where the boss basically instructed 635 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 1: her to wear her hair straight and up. But I 636 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: do want to hear from you if you have experienced 637 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: something like that, curly haired listeners, I hope that this 638 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: satisfied your curly haired desires um and we want to 639 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: hear yes, your stories and experiences, keep them coming to us. 640 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,240 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com is our email address. 641 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom stuff podcast or so. 642 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: This a message on Facebook, and we have a couple 643 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: of Facebook messages this year with you right now. Well. 644 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: The first one here is from Gail and she is 645 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: writing because we had asked on our Dear Ladies podcast, 646 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: the one where we said should we do a curly 647 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,280 Speaker 1: haired episode? We also ask for suggestions of TV shows 648 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: featuring dynamic female characters, and she writes the answer is 649 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: Masters of Sex on Showtime. It has female showrunners, directors, producers, 650 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: and writers and focuses on Virginia Johnson and the groundbreaking 651 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: Masters and Johnson's Sex Study. As a show, there's a 652 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 1: more mature discussion of female sexuality and relationships between women 653 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,720 Speaker 1: and I have seen on TV in years, even counting 654 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,879 Speaker 1: the fact that it's set in the repressive fifties era. 655 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: The complexity of a single mother juggling a desire for 656 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: a career in a world in which this is actively 657 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,359 Speaker 1: looked down upon, in the struggle to acknowledge female sexuality 658 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: and an environment in which the scientific comunity knows almost 659 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: nothing about human sexuality is astounding. Both Lizzie Kaplan and 660 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: Alice and Janey have gotten Emmy Nods for their work. 661 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: Please consider watching season one and perhaps discussing the show 662 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: and the study itself. Which, although flawed, helped create the 663 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: world we live in today as women. So thanks for 664 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: the recommendation, gayl Well. Speaking of hair, Kristen, I have 665 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: a note here from Tracy who said I was just 666 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,839 Speaker 1: listening to your podcast where you talked about curly hair. 667 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 1: As an African American and a retired member of the military, 668 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,320 Speaker 1: I feel the need to speak up. Throughout my career, 669 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: I had natural hair and would always be pulled aside 670 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,839 Speaker 1: to discuss whether I was in regulations or not. I 671 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: always was, but it was usually by white officers. I'm 672 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,359 Speaker 1: now retired, but my daughter is in the Air Force 673 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: and has the exact same problem. She was even pulled 674 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: aside to have her hair measured with a ruler, being 675 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: very aware of the regulations. She's extremely careful because she's 676 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: always aware of being looked at because of her natural hair. 677 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: There are others who know they are completely breaking the 678 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: rules when it comes to their hair. They of dreadlocks 679 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: or sister locks, and the only reason they get away 680 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: with it is because the people above them can't even 681 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: tell a dreadlock from a braid. Other African American women 682 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: with natural hairs that they have the same issues. There 683 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: aren't many left a front of her straightened her hair 684 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: to avoid the problem she was having at work and 685 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: immediately regretted it. But she didn't have any more problems 686 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: at work. Once permed, the only thing you can do 687 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: is chop it off, which we call the big chop, 688 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 1: or don't permit again and transition back to natural hair, 689 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: which is a long process. Perming and straightening black hair 690 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: is very harsh and damaging and it can cause so 691 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: many problems, from burning the scalp and causing baldness to 692 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,839 Speaker 1: damaging the hair follicles. Looking at any military branches hair regulations, 693 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 1: it appears to be a direct attack on natural African 694 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: American hair. I understand the need for neatness and appearance 695 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: and am aware we are representing the United States, but 696 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: the texture of my hair doesn't affect how I do 697 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 1: my job. So thank you so much for writing in 698 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: about your experience, Tracy, and thanks to everybody who's written 699 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 1: in to us. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 700 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also message us 701 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: on Facebook and if you want links to all of 702 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blog post, videos, 703 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 1: and podcasts, including all of our sources for our podcasts 704 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: you can follow along. There's one place to go, and 705 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 1: it's Stuff Mom Never told you dot com. For more 706 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, Is It How 707 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com