Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely
Speaker 1: bug bitten in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't
Speaker 1: predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are the
Speaker 1: most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt
Speaker 1: app from the iTunes or Google play store. Nor where
Speaker 1: you stand with on X. When I was a kid,
Speaker 1: I took out a hit on a beaver. Um does
Speaker 1: the show started this? The show might as well be started.
Speaker 1: You guys are cool if it started already. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 1: there was a draint in my home township. Do they
Speaker 1: have townships where you live, Clay Now, I was I
Speaker 1: was gonna make a comment about that that I'm not.
Speaker 1: I don't understand townships, Spencer. Do you come from township country?
Speaker 1: I own many a plot books where uh play of
Speaker 1: the time I was like seventeen years old. I feel
Speaker 1: like I knew every township I was in without looking
Speaker 1: at one. Yeah. So a township is six by six miles.
Speaker 1: Very common. Yeah, very common in the Midwest to have townships.
Speaker 1: And then there's a small amount of government is run
Speaker 1: out of the township. So most townships you look at
Speaker 1: be like thirty six So it's thirty six square miles.
Speaker 1: One of those square miles is State School trust land,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's is how it works. So uh,
Speaker 1: are we had our township had a drain commissioner. I
Speaker 1: understand now the drain commissioner there is very The drain
Speaker 1: commissioner in my home township, which is Dalton Township, is
Speaker 1: very uh a controversial sort of or maybe the county commissioner.
Speaker 1: Either way, you have a drain commissioner. The drain commissioner
Speaker 1: would hire me two get problem beavers out of the
Speaker 1: drain system. M hm. One time I was working this
Speaker 1: beaver and it was in the summertime and UH shot
Speaker 1: at it sank and I went and told him, I said, man,
Speaker 1: you know, I can't really present it to you because
Speaker 1: it sank. And he paid me my bucks. Anyways, you
Speaker 1: think about that, that's that's honorable. I'd say that's like
Speaker 1: a hat tip to the trapper kind of honorable. I
Speaker 1: ain't that guy's name, uh Merle, His name was Merle,
Speaker 1: not Haggard. Do you think he'd give the money to
Speaker 1: you an hour? I'd be pretty shocked. Here is alive
Speaker 1: right now, so no, um no, he just know way
Speaker 1: that do is a live still nice guy. So uh,
Speaker 1: I don't off you guys are reading the New York
Speaker 1: Times recently. If you see a wolf article in the
Speaker 1: New York Times, you can virtually guarantee that it will
Speaker 1: be uh something about just how nice wolves are? You know?
Speaker 1: In the New York Times. There's an article in the
Speaker 1: New York Times. It's kind of a collision of two things.
Speaker 1: I'm super interested in because the article that the name
Speaker 1: of the articles is using wolves as first responders against
Speaker 1: the deadly brain disease, and it's saying it's talking about how, um,
Speaker 1: these researchers are in Yellowstone are taking a look at
Speaker 1: whether wolves because they have a magical ability. You know,
Speaker 1: everyone who's watched um Never cry Wolf knows that they
Speaker 1: have an uncanny magical ability to sniff out disease and
Speaker 1: kill diseased animals. Uh that wolves and all that will
Speaker 1: take to stop c w D is wolves, because they'll
Speaker 1: go and eat all the c w D positive deer.
Speaker 1: And so they're they're studying this in Yellowstone. Our article
Speaker 1: goes on and on. You know, I'll give him this,
Speaker 1: like I'll give him this. I think it's interesting to watch.
Speaker 1: Um if you could ever I have to ask my
Speaker 1: brother if you could do this, because this is kind
Speaker 1: of like that he sort of specializes in like designing
Speaker 1: studies and statistics and stuff like that. But if you
Speaker 1: could ever see, like does the spread of chronic wasting
Speaker 1: disease which is a deer and elk it's like a
Speaker 1: dear family version for you folks at home. It's a deer,
Speaker 1: it's a servet. So dear elk moves care, you know, right,
Speaker 1: taeli ammule deer. Right, it's the scrapy or mad cow
Speaker 1: disease version. It's a deer nelt version of that of
Speaker 1: scrape or mad cow disease. Um, it's a transmissible sponge
Speaker 1: ofform encephalopathy and it's spreading very rapidly all around the country. Um,
Speaker 1: it's main spread. This is a I'm gonna tell you
Speaker 1: a controversial statement right now. CAP is not listening, no,
Speaker 1: because no, it's the big spreads that have happened around. Honest,
Speaker 1: gonna come out and say this. Uh, the captive servit industry,
Speaker 1: the captive deer industry has done a mighty lot, done
Speaker 1: a mighty lot to help c w D get spread around. Uh,
Speaker 1: even a bunch of money. They just see now, I'm
Speaker 1: way off on the off on the wolf thing. Let
Speaker 1: me lay out this c w D deal a little bit. First,
Speaker 1: c w D there's no evidence that it passes to humans, Like,
Speaker 1: no humans gotten it. They even had this group of people.
Speaker 1: They have a group of like a hundred and some
Speaker 1: people that all eight c w D unknowingly eight c
Speaker 1: w D infected meet at some kind of fundraiser and
Speaker 1: then I don't remember the bulk of them all voluntarily
Speaker 1: submitted themselves for annual testing and none of them have
Speaker 1: gotten it. Tens of thousands of of American hunters have
Speaker 1: eaten c w D positive meat, never jumped. Seth, don't
Speaker 1: even care, do you, set Tell him, Seth, tell them
Speaker 1: how little you care about eating it. I don't care
Speaker 1: at all. Let me ask you this, Seth. If I
Speaker 1: made Let's say I I went to Doug's house and
Speaker 1: I got a bunch of the I went to the
Speaker 1: wherever they do the testing, and I said, I want
Speaker 1: a bunch of those positive deer brains, okay, And I
Speaker 1: made a burger in which I took ten c w
Speaker 1: D positive deer yep and ground up their meat and
Speaker 1: put some of the brain in there and put some
Speaker 1: of the spinal column tissue in there and made a burger?
Speaker 1: Would you eat that burger? Well, don't. I don't eat
Speaker 1: the brains and spinal column anyway. Okay, let's say I'll
Speaker 1: eat the burger. Really. Yeah. See that's how I test
Speaker 1: the c w D deny or are U s c
Speaker 1: w D deny or you just don't think it's gonna
Speaker 1: jump to humans? No, I I believe in c NEED
Speaker 1: one thousand. Accept that it's a disease and it's spreading around,
Speaker 1: but you don't take precautions to not spread it around.
Speaker 1: And you know, I don't deny that at all, But
Speaker 1: when it comes to human health, like you're not worried
Speaker 1: that you're gonna be the dude that gets it. No,
Speaker 1: there seems to be like a direct correlation between how
Speaker 1: many people you're feeding in your family and like how
Speaker 1: serious he takes c w D. Absolutely, I just how
Speaker 1: big is your family? I mean me and my girlfriend
Speaker 1: that So, who's probably who's emerging as the best wildlife
Speaker 1: artist in America? Tell tell everybody her name Johnson, Tell
Speaker 1: him her ka Ray Johns is a better check to
Speaker 1: make sure that's right emerging? Did you hear what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Clay emerging as probably America's greatest wildlife artist. I've seen
Speaker 1: some of your stuff. It's cool, it's cool stuff. I
Speaker 1: have a prong horn picture of hers hanging up in
Speaker 1: my house. K Ray Artworks dot com. Spell it for everybody,
Speaker 1: kay r a e Artworks dot Com. Yep, check it out.
Speaker 1: That's girlfriend. Uh anyway, Seth Seth like the burger. That's
Speaker 1: how I test whether someone that's like people that say
Speaker 1: c w DS nobody deal. I need to get a
Speaker 1: badge these burgers. So when I when someone says I
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm not worried about c w D, I
Speaker 1: can fry him up one of my c w D burgers.
Speaker 1: If they eat it, then I'm like, dude, I believe
Speaker 1: everything you say, or I believe that you believe everything
Speaker 1: you say. If they pause, then I'm like, we got
Speaker 1: a problem. Yeah, I want to get back. We're in
Speaker 1: a CWD zone here in Arkansas. Yeah. And I was
Speaker 1: just gonna say, I'm I'm in some ways with Seth
Speaker 1: like I'm not that worried about it. And that is
Speaker 1: displayed to me because I have not had my dear tested,
Speaker 1: which I'm I do, and I'm not necessarily proud of that.
Speaker 1: But we've been eating deer from this region for twenty years.
Speaker 1: I mean, my kids have grown up with it. So
Speaker 1: my point is is that if we if we start,
Speaker 1: I mean, we've already had it pretesting. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: the thing. So I'm gonna start making a habit of
Speaker 1: getting deer tested. But we never have, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: Bubbly Doug during he gets ear tat and when people
Speaker 1: say that, like if if you were to say to two, Doug,
Speaker 1: I don't care about c w D because I'm not
Speaker 1: worried about catching c w D. Doug feels you're missing
Speaker 1: the point, right, because as prevalence goes up, um, it's
Speaker 1: always fatal. Like you don't know, dear survive c w D.
Speaker 1: As prevalence goes up, you're gonna have population wide impacts.
Speaker 1: And he feels some people can test this. Doug feels
Speaker 1: it's beginning to happen, and you're gonna see that in
Speaker 1: these areas that have seventy five you know, and climbing
Speaker 1: um infection rates that you're gonna get to where you're
Speaker 1: gonna see population crashes dying from c w D and Also,
Speaker 1: you're not going to have old mature bucks because deer
Speaker 1: don't live long enough. Because I killed the CDBD positive
Speaker 1: dear this year, do you it? No? Man? Well, at
Speaker 1: the time, I offered it up to anybody on the
Speaker 1: editorial team, um, and nobody took it. I was even
Speaker 1: offering it to people for like them to feed their
Speaker 1: dogs with, and nobody took it. Um to feed a dog. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I I offered it to Yanni and it was a
Speaker 1: hard no. He wouldn't feed it to his dog. Yanni
Speaker 1: also brought up a good point that if he would
Speaker 1: feed it to his dog and ignored the potential health thing,
Speaker 1: his dog would then go shut it out in his
Speaker 1: yard and be spreading CWD all over his property. Um,
Speaker 1: which I can respect that stance. Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1: You know what's funny about this article? Back back to
Speaker 1: the article here, So it's like this article where it's
Speaker 1: you know, you know, tomorrow there'll be an article like
Speaker 1: wolves actually helped bring more rainbows. You know, if we
Speaker 1: had more wolves, we have more rainbows. Um. They're never
Speaker 1: just like a large while canine in their eyes a
Speaker 1: magical creature. And uh so they're doing this thing, and
Speaker 1: I am interested to see, like, like I'd be interested
Speaker 1: to see if c w D spread slows in places
Speaker 1: that have high wolf densities. Um. This thing goes on
Speaker 1: and on like saying like this could be a reason
Speaker 1: why we should reintroduce more wolves around the country because
Speaker 1: they'll sniff out the c w D. And they finally
Speaker 1: give a fishing game guy. They give um chief of
Speaker 1: the Wildlife Division of Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. They
Speaker 1: give him like at the end of the article, they
Speaker 1: throw him a bone and give him a quote. He
Speaker 1: expresses doubts that wolves would prevent chronic waste and disease.
Speaker 1: He says, wolves help remove sick animals, but animals don't
Speaker 1: get visibly ill for about two years, so they are
Speaker 1: carriers and spreaders, but they don't get the symptoms. And
Speaker 1: to counter this, they go on and say, um that uh.
Speaker 1: The the miss Brandle who's involved with this research goes
Speaker 1: on to say that, um that these magical wolves, she
Speaker 1: doesn't used magical. Said the wolves made detective disease long
Speaker 1: before it becomes apparent to people. Mm hmm. Through smell
Speaker 1: like a cancer dog dogs that dear smells like it's
Speaker 1: got c w D. I'm automatically thinking about the welfare
Speaker 1: of the wolves. Man. I mean, we won't feel it.
Speaker 1: We won't feed this stuff to our kids, but we're
Speaker 1: will feed it to these uh majestic wolves. You see
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like, no concern for the wolves here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but wolves always get like I listen to I go,
Speaker 1: I like wolves. I like seeing wolves. I like seeing
Speaker 1: wolves tracks. I like wolves. I like to see wolves
Speaker 1: get restored. But it's like to also be like realistic
Speaker 1: about it and not do all the hyperbolic bs that
Speaker 1: people do to like to to proselytize wolves. And that's
Speaker 1: hard for people like they have a phenomenal marketing engine
Speaker 1: behind them. Uh, how's that? Is that good? That article
Speaker 1: feels an awful out like the one that the New
Speaker 1: York Times ran in about letting mountain lions eat the
Speaker 1: feral horses and that'll be the solution to the problem.
Speaker 1: Do you remember that? Yeah? And did you ever hear
Speaker 1: Carl Malcolm uh tear that we try to get that
Speaker 1: right around the podcast. He wouldn't come on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Carl wrote a Carl wrote a scathing critique of that article. Um,
Speaker 1: who's he's a professional biologist. You know, he wrote a
Speaker 1: scathing critique of that article, but the Times didn't publish
Speaker 1: it because their rebuttals are generally very short. And Carl
Speaker 1: had all these statistics to point out areas where some
Speaker 1: of the highest mountain lion densities overlap with some of
Speaker 1: the highest wild horse densities, and also laid out a
Speaker 1: lot about how mountain lions used the landscape um in
Speaker 1: a way that wouldn't it all be benef official to
Speaker 1: killing off horses, Like where they hunt, where they occupy,
Speaker 1: isn't where horses go. It was just an assinine, an
Speaker 1: assinine article, um. And the writer wouldn't even stand by
Speaker 1: it to come on the show and talk about it.
Speaker 1: It was just it was a joke. Guy died of
Speaker 1: it was an article floating around right now. This guy
Speaker 1: they they've had this body for a long time. So
Speaker 1: there's there's this dude that was alive one thousand to
Speaker 1: one thousand four years ago, UM in the desert southwest.
Speaker 1: He died a constipation. Mhm, jeez. That's terrible. And it
Speaker 1: seems as though as they're looking at his his diet
Speaker 1: that uh, he had for months been someone had been
Speaker 1: for months feeding him grasshoppers with the legs torn off.
Speaker 1: He ate mainly grasshoppers and the painful months prior to
Speaker 1: his death. Now, why why do you say someone was
Speaker 1: feeding him? Well, it goes on to say that he
Speaker 1: was in such bad shape. He had what's called a
Speaker 1: mega colon. There's a he had a parasite trip pana
Speaker 1: soma cruzy, which I've never heard of, had blocked up
Speaker 1: the man's gastro intestinal system so as cold and swelled
Speaker 1: to six times normal size. It's a condition called mega colon.
Speaker 1: So the guy can't digest food properly, and he was
Speaker 1: becoming malnourished. They think that he would have been so
Speaker 1: bad by looking at his body that he probably couldn't
Speaker 1: even walk or eat on his own. He was in
Speaker 1: that bad of shape, and then for the last two
Speaker 1: or three months of his life, someone was feeding him
Speaker 1: or he was feeding on legless grasshoppers, like the squishy part.
Speaker 1: I wonder what, I wonder why? I don't know. They
Speaker 1: found this guy back in seven and a rock shelter
Speaker 1: along the Rio Grande and Pecos rivers in South Texas.
Speaker 1: You can't say that. You can't say Rio Grande River.
Speaker 1: Do you know that because you're saying River Grande River.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I got you. I just saw I
Speaker 1: just let me bathe phrase that the Rio Grande. I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna say the Rio grand and Pacos River. So
Speaker 1: this dude was was living. Was he like living in
Speaker 1: a town somewhere just out in the bush. We mean
Speaker 1: a town somewhere. Oh, we said, like like a pueblo
Speaker 1: or something. They they found him like in a rock shelter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So he was like a primitive fellow. Two point six
Speaker 1: pounds of feces in a vast the amount of food
Speaker 1: remains that were never processed. That's not that much feces. No,
Speaker 1: I never go on a scale, but I'm not like
Speaker 1: blown away by that. Do you ever a weigh at spencer? No,
Speaker 1: He's shaking his head. No, no, No, I feel like
Speaker 1: I feel like wrestlers do that. I had had a
Speaker 1: guy one time tell me that he said, you'd be
Speaker 1: surprised what you'd eat when you're hungry. And he told
Speaker 1: he said that statement after he told the story of
Speaker 1: riding a train from somewhere in New Mexico to San Antonio,
Speaker 1: Texas in a box car that he jumped in. He
Speaker 1: he rode the entire way for three days. The train
Speaker 1: didn't stop when he got to San Antonio, Texas. He
Speaker 1: was sixteen years old. He'd run away from home and
Speaker 1: he jumped out of the box car and went and
Speaker 1: found in a dumpster some molded biscuits and raw bacon,
Speaker 1: and he ate him. I worked with this guy. He
Speaker 1: was like in his sixties. This was twenty years ago
Speaker 1: and at the time he's in his sixties. And he
Speaker 1: looked at me and he said, Clay, you'd be surprised
Speaker 1: what you'd eat if you're hungry. And I believed him that.
Speaker 1: I don't think so I take that back about um
Speaker 1: Seth said, wrestlers probably know how much it weighs. And
Speaker 1: I guess when I was in high school wrestling, I
Speaker 1: wasn't eating a bunch. But before ways, if you'd go
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom, you could usually if you had
Speaker 1: a a nice, good crap, you could usually lose about
Speaker 1: a pound. So that's what wrestlers do. Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 1: Just try and get get all everything out when you
Speaker 1: can before you hop on this skated. Uh. Well, what's
Speaker 1: interesting about how much it goes on to say, like
Speaker 1: how much pressure this guy had going on there's a
Speaker 1: thing um a final list, which is a plant part,
Speaker 1: and usually a final list can pass through a humans
Speaker 1: digestive track on scathed. But the final lists and this
Speaker 1: guy's digestive track or split open and crushed, which points
Speaker 1: to an incredible pressure that was exerted on a microscopic
Speaker 1: level in this guy's intestinal system. This is gonna be
Speaker 1: detailed in the forthcoming book called the Handbook of Mummy Studies.
Speaker 1: And if you think I'll not be buying the Handbook
Speaker 1: of Mummy Studies, you are wrong. That sounds very painful. Uh.
Speaker 1: Speaking of painful, did you guys hear about Seth almost
Speaker 1: getting uh attacked by a wild weasel this morning? He's
Speaker 1: lucky to be alive. Tell what happens, Seth Um, we
Speaker 1: identified a culvert pipe that would be good for trapping weasels.
Speaker 1: And I dumped down over the bank and in the dark,
Speaker 1: in the dark, I reached down in the culvert pipe
Speaker 1: and to put a trap box, a weasel box with
Speaker 1: with a trap in it, And Uh, I heard something
Speaker 1: growled at me and Seth Seth won't make okay, tell
Speaker 1: the story. I don't. I do not think I can
Speaker 1: accurately mimic the sound because it sounded bigger than a weasel. Um,
Speaker 1: he's he cried, he cried like a little baby. That
Speaker 1: that's false. What what types of weasels? That's like long
Speaker 1: tail weasel? Yeah, long tail is that that was in
Speaker 1: a culvert. So it's like it was like it was
Speaker 1: like growing in probably a fourteen inch sixteen inch colvert.
Speaker 1: I mean that would make it sound really loud. Yeah,
Speaker 1: here's the thing. He just keeps talking about this, this
Speaker 1: horrific growl. I knew. I ran down there with a flash,
Speaker 1: like I thought we might have a bobcat. That's what
Speaker 1: I thought. I thought, by the way, And I went
Speaker 1: down there and shined light in there, and we went
Speaker 1: to the other end and it was just a little
Speaker 1: teeny weasel come out the other end. And then we
Speaker 1: spent an hour try Seth won't say what the sound
Speaker 1: sounded like because I I can't even begin to miss
Speaker 1: and we've tried every like her, No, it's like we're
Speaker 1: a weasel growl Like well, I don't know how to
Speaker 1: mimic that. He won't he will not do the thing
Speaker 1: like it wasn't like it wasn't like it was like no, no,
Speaker 1: it's it was like, to try to explain it, it
Speaker 1: was like a very like soft, quiet growl. But it
Speaker 1: startled you. But yeah, because I could tell how startled
Speaker 1: he was because when I went down there, the weaselbox
Speaker 1: is just kind of thrown down into pipe. He didn't
Speaker 1: even properly place it. There's a YouTube video that says
Speaker 1: sound of weasel, and it's a weasel in a cage
Speaker 1: making a growl. Oh, keep playing that for us real quick.
Speaker 1: I'm trying here. Is that what you heard? Said? That's
Speaker 1: not what I heard. It's not very loud, guys. Oh,
Speaker 1: there it is there it is. It's like a chuckle.
Speaker 1: Is that what you heard? That the coock? That part
Speaker 1: sounds a little familiar, that's what's scared. But it didn't.
Speaker 1: It didn't sound like it was like ok it was
Speaker 1: like it was like two of those okay, But it
Speaker 1: was in a damn culvert. I would like to bring
Speaker 1: up that that's some good weasel trapping. That's some d
Speaker 1: good weasel trapping. Set of weasel trap. Stick your hand
Speaker 1: in a hole and there's already a weasel there. In fact, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the sign reading that went into this that we identified
Speaker 1: such a hot low coal that he was actually in
Speaker 1: the culvert, and then we shine too. You couldn't see
Speaker 1: all the way through, so I ran up in over
Speaker 1: the road and down the other embankment and couldn't find
Speaker 1: the exit track. Then I realized that weasel was so
Speaker 1: scared of Seth that when he come out the other
Speaker 1: end of the culver, he must clear snow before his
Speaker 1: feet hit the ground. Here's a great question, though, Steve.
Speaker 1: Here's a trapping question. And this is gonna show the
Speaker 1: heart of the trapper, and and I don't know which
Speaker 1: way it is gonna go. Would you have killed the
Speaker 1: weasel in the culvert if he wasn't in a trap? Oh?
Speaker 1: I thought we had a bobcat, and that bobcat would
Speaker 1: have been in trouble. Okay, because it's like when you're
Speaker 1: coon hunting with dogs, like we'll we'll see a coon
Speaker 1: in a tree and not kill it because our dogs
Speaker 1: didn't tree it. We'll walk past the training thing. And
Speaker 1: I'm not worried about training up Seth. I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: like spoil Seth by by getting a weasel that he
Speaker 1: didn't tree up. Uh. So she hasn't been she has
Speaker 1: been approved yet, but by made his selection of Interior Secretary. Um,
Speaker 1: if you if you're hunting fish or if you like
Speaker 1: to if you're just generally like to be outdoors, I
Speaker 1: don't care. If you're a skier, biker, hiker, definitely, if
Speaker 1: you're hunter and angler, Probably the most influential person in
Speaker 1: the country for you, particularly if you live in the
Speaker 1: Western US, probably the most influential person in your life,
Speaker 1: whether you know it or not, is the Interior Secretary.
Speaker 1: So the secretary of the Interior um outside of like
Speaker 1: the egg Secretary, who under Trump was Sonny Perdue, who
Speaker 1: overseas like U. S. D A, you know, Forest Service lands,
Speaker 1: the Interior Secretary is like BLM, refugees, National Parks, all
Speaker 1: these land management you know, all though these land management
Speaker 1: agencies sit under this Interior Secretary, and they kind of
Speaker 1: set the tone for what goes on in this country
Speaker 1: around and management on public lands, federal public lands highly influential.
Speaker 1: When Trump came in, he initially appointed Zinky Ryan Zinky
Speaker 1: from Montana, who had been a Navy seal. He ran
Speaker 1: into a lot of ethics troubles and left and was
Speaker 1: replaced by a guy named Bernhardt and Bernhardt Trump so
Speaker 1: he Bernhard almost did four years from Trump. Bernhard did
Speaker 1: a lot of great stuff. He did a lot of
Speaker 1: annoying stuff, but he had a lot of good stuff.
Speaker 1: And it was very good on access, so very good
Speaker 1: on opening up lands the hunting and fishing that that
Speaker 1: previously weren't. It was good on migration corridors. Was good
Speaker 1: on some management issues like overturning some Obama air rules
Speaker 1: that restricted Alaska's ability to use certain management practices on
Speaker 1: refuge lands. There was a real slap in the face
Speaker 1: two the state of Alaska. Um, they did a lot
Speaker 1: of goods. He did a lot of good stuff. He
Speaker 1: did a lot of bad stuff. They had this energy dominance.
Speaker 1: The Trump administration had this you know energy dominance plan, right, Um,
Speaker 1: and it and their their m O for the history
Speaker 1: of Trump's term was to really try to up energy
Speaker 1: extraction on public lands. UM. I'm not a I'm not
Speaker 1: a big fan of just coming out and saying that
Speaker 1: you just want to maximize output and not talk about
Speaker 1: how you want to do it in a responsible, gradual way. Uh.
Speaker 1: But Biden just did his pick, and I was really
Speaker 1: hoping that he was gonna pick. Martin Heinrich from New Mexico,
Speaker 1: and I know there's all kinds of reasons, all kinds
Speaker 1: of political stuff, but he was my He was my
Speaker 1: Like I would have been very very happy because here
Speaker 1: you would have had an avid hunter, avid angler, Um,
Speaker 1: great conservation ethic, extremely knowledgeable about the landscape ape out there. Um,
Speaker 1: his head's on straight, he like knows what stuff matters
Speaker 1: for hunters and anglers. You couldn't have done better than Heinrich,
Speaker 1: who's a senator from New Mexico. And it was rumored
Speaker 1: that he was going to get the NOD or you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people pushing for him to get
Speaker 1: the NOD, but it went to subject to approval, went
Speaker 1: to Deb Hayland from New Mexico, the first Native American
Speaker 1: two get appointed as Interior Secretary. So that that that
Speaker 1: that's that's a big win for Native Americans here. Um,
Speaker 1: I am like trying to be optimistic here. I'm I'm
Speaker 1: worried about a couple of things that would happen. Uh.
Speaker 1: I'm worried that under Biden and under Halan, that we
Speaker 1: might do too much renewable energy stuff on public lands. Um,
Speaker 1: these solar arrays and wind farms are we can't just
Speaker 1: turn the landscape into a solar farm. It's very destructive
Speaker 1: the wildlife habitat. Uh. And so this kind of like
Speaker 1: I feel that there's gonna be this like knee jerk
Speaker 1: push into doing put creating like industrial landscapes out on
Speaker 1: our public lands of solar arrays. It's you know, that
Speaker 1: stuff can be catastrophic to wildlife. So I'm a little
Speaker 1: afraid of that. There's a couple of other things I'm
Speaker 1: afraid of, but maybe I'll be pleased in the end.
Speaker 1: You guys got any thoughts on this? Mhmm, you ought too.
Speaker 1: I think so it should just take that solar energy
Speaker 1: and make everyone get the elon Musk's U solar energy
Speaker 1: on the roofs of everyone's houses instead of out on
Speaker 1: the environment. Yeah, that comes to complications too, but I'd
Speaker 1: rather that. Yeah. Um, watching massive mounts of grassland and
Speaker 1: massive mounts of you know, open country converged into wind farms.
Speaker 1: They're so noisy too. Where I grew up, we had
Speaker 1: a bunch of them, and um, the only thing they
Speaker 1: were good for it was obviously the energy they're creating.
Speaker 1: But you could check the wind real easy when you're
Speaker 1: gonna go hunt and see which way they were pointed, No,
Speaker 1: that's a good point. There's enough. See, that's that's always
Speaker 1: look at the bright side. There's a there's a three
Speaker 1: thousand acre solar solar farm that's proposed to go in
Speaker 1: right next to my family's Honing property and Pennsylvania is
Speaker 1: that right, But it's not public, but it is like
Speaker 1: some of the best elk cabitat you'll find in the state.
Speaker 1: And it's there's a shipload of elk on it. Because
Speaker 1: that I've seen the big wind the big wind turbans
Speaker 1: out west, the solar farms I'm less I know less
Speaker 1: about just because I haven't seen them. I mean, are
Speaker 1: these some massive like like him saying that a three
Speaker 1: thousand acre solar farm, that's news to me. I didn't
Speaker 1: know we had them that big. So that would effectively,
Speaker 1: I mean, they would fence these things so that it
Speaker 1: would impede movement of wildlife. Yeah, it's like it's an
Speaker 1: it's an industrial it winds up being an industrial landscape.
Speaker 1: They basically they basically um blanket the landscape. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then you have all you know roads. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just like it's like it's like it's it's an industrial
Speaker 1: development project. And so and I and the little bit
Speaker 1: I've not a little bit. The fair bit of reevening
Speaker 1: I've done on Hayland is that that's like a higher priority.
Speaker 1: Other people speculated a high priority could be UM trying
Speaker 1: to seed lands bad two tribes, which is you know,
Speaker 1: as an enormous minefield, UM and I and and would
Speaker 1: be highly controversial and may distract Like that conversation may
Speaker 1: distract from some of the things that I would view
Speaker 1: as high priority that we're likely to get taken care of.
Speaker 1: But we'll see, hopefully we'll all be real pleased. We
Speaker 1: had a conversation recently about castration bands. I found a
Speaker 1: coyote ship with a castration band in it. Was I
Speaker 1: telling you about this spencer you talked about on the podcast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I found a coyote ship. I was hunting anilop my
Speaker 1: kids and found a coyote ship with a with a
Speaker 1: castration band. Is you can take a lamb and I
Speaker 1: remember this kid named Paul Anderson do it to his
Speaker 1: dog when I was growing up. Um, you take this
Speaker 1: little rubber band and wrap it around his scroll, and
Speaker 1: the causes the scroll to fall off. Do you ever
Speaker 1: have that done to you? Seth no, I tried to
Speaker 1: avoid that kind of stuff. A guy wrote in a
Speaker 1: rancher from um southeastern Montana, and he wrote in he said,
Speaker 1: people use those castration bands to dock sheep tails. So
Speaker 1: you notice like now and then you'll see, you know,
Speaker 1: lambs aren't supposed to have like lambs are born with
Speaker 1: a big, long, damn tail, but everybody cuts the tail
Speaker 1: off him. And he was saying that you really cut
Speaker 1: lambs off tails. You prevent dung build up in maggot
Speaker 1: infestation on the lamb's backside, so that tail builds up
Speaker 1: and lamb feces flies land on there. It's badford the lamb.
Speaker 1: So what they do is they put that castration band
Speaker 1: around the tail and it cuts off circulation. The tails
Speaker 1: falls off. He's saying that heat thinks this kyote ship
Speaker 1: they had a castration band in it. He said. Quote
Speaker 1: odds are the lamb had lost his tail in a
Speaker 1: pasture somewhere and the kyote found himself a little lamb
Speaker 1: tail jerky laying on the ground and a everything including
Speaker 1: the band. We see it in our ranch dogs scat
Speaker 1: all the time. Seth Price, still running a hotmail address,
Speaker 1: really think of that I don't know that's the thing anymore.
Speaker 1: Clay tell us about this Canadian Links that just did
Speaker 1: this this kind of cool thing. Yeah, you know, Steve,
Speaker 1: this actually took place a while back. It just resurfaced
Speaker 1: in the media. But oh, there's all time many still.
Speaker 1: A story center producer a story about a guy who outfitter,
Speaker 1: who had gotten so much wild had so many wildly
Speaker 1: violation that he had what's called the global He had
Speaker 1: like a global forfeiture of hunting privileges. And she wrote back,
Speaker 1: She's like, you know, this was nineteen years ago. Are
Speaker 1: you sure you want me to put this in the show.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, sorry, well, hey, this is worthy, Steve.
Speaker 1: This uh, this is the longest documented travel of the
Speaker 1: links in in biological history. And obviously you know how
Speaker 1: many links in the history of the planet have been
Speaker 1: have been monitored. But basically, so the big story is
Speaker 1: is that in the early two thousands, there were two
Speaker 1: hundred and eighteen links, one source says. Another source said
Speaker 1: ninety links transplanted from Canada into the high country of Colorado.
Speaker 1: So basically they were trying to restore the links population
Speaker 1: in Colorado, so they were catching them up in Canada,
Speaker 1: where there's a bunch of links bringing them down in
Speaker 1: the Colorado where there were no links. And you haven't
Speaker 1: know what year links got Endangered Species Act protections. Yes, uh,
Speaker 1: Canadian links were listed about the US Fish and Wildlife
Speaker 1: Service has threatened in the contiguous US and two thousands,
Speaker 1: so they're not on the Endangered Species list. I was
Speaker 1: understand it. They're on the threatened list, but still they're
Speaker 1: on the s A list has threatened, that's right. So
Speaker 1: the only the only US state that you can harvest
Speaker 1: and hunt links is Alaska. But in Canada they're thick,
Speaker 1: you know, they're they're doing very well. And um I
Speaker 1: read an interesting statute Steve that you'll appreciate. So at
Speaker 1: the peak of the fur trade, the modern fur trade,
Speaker 1: in the early nineteen eighties, they were exporting about thirty
Speaker 1: five thousand links pelts out of Alaska and Canada, and
Speaker 1: obviously today that's much less just because of supply demand,
Speaker 1: you know. But that's off top, that's off the topic here.
Speaker 1: This so this links and he's got a science name,
Speaker 1: you know, b C O three m O two. They
Speaker 1: dropped him off in Colorado when he was two years old,
Speaker 1: and he lived in Colorado for four years and then
Speaker 1: he just just he settled right in. Man, the amount
Speaker 1: of surveillance they do on these cats is kind of creepy. Man.
Speaker 1: They knew how many sires of kittens this cat had, uh,
Speaker 1: how many sets of kittens this cat had sired and
Speaker 1: said it's sired two letters of kittens, one in two
Speaker 1: thousand five, one in two thousand. So he was getting
Speaker 1: some play in Colorado. He was and lived there four years.
Speaker 1: It must have been like a marital dispute that pushed
Speaker 1: him out. I don't know, but he left in two
Speaker 1: thousand seven. He went missing, and so the biologists just
Speaker 1: felt like it was just a loss, you know, like
Speaker 1: all these radio colored animals that they're tracking all over
Speaker 1: the place, bears lines like collars just go dead. You
Speaker 1: know that it's just the it happens. It happens here
Speaker 1: in Arkansas with our bears a lot, just randomly, something
Speaker 1: goes wrong, collar goes dead, animal disappears off the data
Speaker 1: points of these biologists and um. But in two thousand
Speaker 1: and ten, Steve, a trapper in nordag Alberta catches a
Speaker 1: big lynx with a with a collar on it, and uh,
Speaker 1: the cat was already dead in the trap, or he
Speaker 1: would have he would have he would have released it,
Speaker 1: he said. But anyway, he gets the number off the collar,
Speaker 1: calls the number, and the in the people are just amazed.
Speaker 1: And the cat had traveled about twelve hundred miles and
Speaker 1: the cat was nine years old at the time and
Speaker 1: went trick to Alberta. Okay, it was caught in British Columbia.
Speaker 1: It went to Alberta, so it didn't it didn't quite
Speaker 1: make it home. Um, but it it just went north
Speaker 1: for and there's no you know, these things are so
Speaker 1: mysterious because we just don't know why it did it.
Speaker 1: We we don't know why. But the the travel was
Speaker 1: you know, obviously the cats crossing major interstate highways. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's all kind of hazards that this cat would have
Speaker 1: had to have gone through. So traveled north through the
Speaker 1: bulk of because he started out in southern Colorado, right
Speaker 1: San Juan Mountains. Yeahs through Colorado presumably like I don't know,
Speaker 1: swung through Utah, western Wyoming, traveled through Idaho or Montana,
Speaker 1: and then made his way were ass into Canada. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: These so these cats, Steve typically have a home range
Speaker 1: of twelve to eighty three miles. That's what the the
Speaker 1: the website, the wells, it was the FED website. Um,
Speaker 1: it was really specific. But so you know, the males
Speaker 1: have bigger home ranges, the females are gonna have smaller
Speaker 1: home ranges. So you know they're known to travel. You know,
Speaker 1: links most of his diet, his snowshoe hairs. They're highly specific.
Speaker 1: I did a little research on why. How are they
Speaker 1: different than bobcats. You know, they look a lot like
Speaker 1: a bobcat and it it mainly has. They can be
Speaker 1: slightly larger than bobcat, but they're super specialized. That's pretty
Speaker 1: much what makes them different. You know, bobcats live all
Speaker 1: across the US. I mean they're very widely distributed. Links
Speaker 1: are highly specialized for hunting snowshoe hairs and snow and
Speaker 1: then the boarder typically the well. Now they're in the
Speaker 1: boreal forest, but at one time they were in all
Speaker 1: the highlands of North America. As I understand it, So
Speaker 1: I have a big, a big gass foot and bigger tough.
Speaker 1: I was talking about this on the show with a
Speaker 1: handful of times, but um, I've only laid eyes on
Speaker 1: one links man, and it was just and they have
Speaker 1: a face that kind of looks like a human baby
Speaker 1: in a weird way. Man, you're wild looking. I guess
Speaker 1: if you want to preorder the Handbook of Mummy Studies
Speaker 1: Guests with that Bad Boys coming in at it's free
Speaker 1: delivery on prime hard cover, there's four hundred forty nine cents. Oddly,
Speaker 1: the paperback is six hundred nine dollars and cents to
Speaker 1: pre order it. Why would it be that expensive? I
Speaker 1: don't know, but I hope these good people are listening
Speaker 1: and send me one of these damn books. That's crazy.
Speaker 1: And then mum is the mountain lion that recently made
Speaker 1: a long trip. Uh that was more recent, Yeah, that
Speaker 1: was so there was a young lion collared in New
Speaker 1: Mexico February the twelve, in kind of like northwest New
Speaker 1: Mexico and uh he he was documented to have traveled
Speaker 1: five hundred and fifty eight miles and stead in the
Speaker 1: Mason Verda National Park. So that's that's like, that's not
Speaker 1: standard mountain lion protocol, but that's like not terribly uncommon.
Speaker 1: I mean, pretty cool, no doubt, oh yeah, but just
Speaker 1: like amazing that they can move around and avoid trouble.
Speaker 1: M hm. You know all those highways. Yeah, passing through towns,
Speaker 1: crossing highways and not starving to death. Steve, we have
Speaker 1: so too. Three years ago, the Arkansas Game and Fish
Speaker 1: Commission changed the title of one of our biologists from
Speaker 1: the bar biologists to the large carnivore biologists because we
Speaker 1: had enough legitimate mountain lion sightings in the state that
Speaker 1: it deemed a biologist to be over mountain lions in Arkansas.
Speaker 1: We're super fascinating. And I talked of the guy the
Speaker 1: other day for a podcast, and basically he thinks we're
Speaker 1: getting mountain lions on these big treks, these big journeys,
Speaker 1: like they're they're coming down the Missouri River coming into Arkansas,
Speaker 1: and they'll will have just like a spasm of lyon
Speaker 1: sightings that span like all of you know, I mean
Speaker 1: like counties. You know, like there's a lie there, there's
Speaker 1: a line there, there's a line there, and it's the
Speaker 1: same lion and he's on this big walk about and
Speaker 1: they leave though there there's they have yet to document
Speaker 1: a lion that is a breeding populations of lions here.
Speaker 1: But every year we have lions and so He speculates
Speaker 1: that it's this it's this edge of lyon habitat where
Speaker 1: the males are dispersing deep. And he said, as soon
Speaker 1: as a female decides to live here, then we'll start getting,
Speaker 1: you know, males that come and stay like because they're
Speaker 1: basically looking for mates and looking for terry tory. They're
Speaker 1: not male is not gonna come in and inhabited place
Speaker 1: that doesn't have a female. Was this point historically it
Speaker 1: was the most widely distributed large mammal in the Western hemisphere. Yeah,
Speaker 1: down to the southern tip of Patagonia, right all through
Speaker 1: South America, Central America, up into Canada coast to coast.
Speaker 1: Here in the US, it was everywhere. It's really had
Speaker 1: this little population hang on in Florida and then just
Speaker 1: get wiped out in the Eastern US and then just
Speaker 1: very slowly but gradually coming back. You think, you know,
Speaker 1: how they like they seem to be doing um fairly
Speaker 1: well in like California where it's heavily populated. They're eating
Speaker 1: house cats and dogs and ship like that. Do you
Speaker 1: think eventually the they'll slowly start populating like the Eastern
Speaker 1: States where it's where it's like like they've they're gonna
Speaker 1: like kind of learned to live amongst humans. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean you're definitely. I don't know how many generations
Speaker 1: it will take, but I think that you'll have I mean,
Speaker 1: at this moment, like we're having like expanding you know,
Speaker 1: mountain lions are expanding range. Black bears are actively right
Speaker 1: now expanding range. So I think definitely, I don't know
Speaker 1: what it would be. I don't know if like my
Speaker 1: kids kids will be surprised to hear that once upon
Speaker 1: a time it was unusual to have a mountain lion
Speaker 1: like in Ohio, um because it's just like it's one
Speaker 1: thing to pass through. But like they gotta have enough
Speaker 1: room to not get in that much trouble. But the
Speaker 1: fact that they're able to um do well, not do well,
Speaker 1: but to to live in huge population centers in California.
Speaker 1: But then you have like a lot of topography, steep
Speaker 1: brushy country they can still hide. They've got to have
Speaker 1: a ton of deer, they've got you know, elk, they've
Speaker 1: got to have some type of ungula. You know. Cultural
Speaker 1: tolerance will be the main thing. I think in the East,
Speaker 1: just like how many people, how how many lions will
Speaker 1: people put up with which I think the tolerance would
Speaker 1: be left in the eastern part of the US would
Speaker 1: be less than the cultural tolerance in the West for
Speaker 1: large predators. Yeah. I mean there's celebrities around California, man,
Speaker 1: I mean, and like around the population hubs in California
Speaker 1: population centers there. Uh. One of the one of the
Speaker 1: I think probably an now standing question on it is
Speaker 1: how well they can do in an agricultural landscape too,
Speaker 1: where so much of the ground is tilled and open um.
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, but they're they're definitely expanding out.
Speaker 1: You know. Years ago now, California banned mountain lion hunting.
Speaker 1: First they went after houndsman, then they just banned it
Speaker 1: all together. It's kind of like the playbook there is,
Speaker 1: you like, like it's the Death Back thousand cuts playbook. Uh.
Speaker 1: They were looking at this dispersal study. They thought that
Speaker 1: because California had no lion hunting, they were expecting to
Speaker 1: see lions like sort of flowing out of California. And
Speaker 1: they did this. They were looking at this study of
Speaker 1: like dispersal and it was funny because uh, Nevada, which
Speaker 1: still has like a thriving lion hunting culture, Nevada actually
Speaker 1: has lions that they're producing that are dispersing westward into California.
Speaker 1: Like they're still creating them and kicking them out. That's wild. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's good stuff man. Uh. And in the early two thousands,
Speaker 1: I was trying to do a magazine story for Outside.
Speaker 1: I could never get him to assign me the story,
Speaker 1: but I kept wanting to do a story about, um,
Speaker 1: these guys and like, you know anywhere like North Carolina, Tennessee,
Speaker 1: like the local crazy guy that would see a mountain lion. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and everybody's like, you're crazy, you don't know what you're
Speaker 1: talking about. Um, And I was kind of and I
Speaker 1: was a little bit ahead of my time because this
Speaker 1: guy even started this thing called like the Eastern Puma
Speaker 1: Research Center or something like that because he had run
Speaker 1: into one on a road hunting turkeys, I think, and
Speaker 1: it haunted him. Every thought he's a nut job. And
Speaker 1: then ten years later they're getting hit that one gets
Speaker 1: hit on the road in Connecticut. Yeah, a wild born
Speaker 1: one in Pennsylvania. I mean, like I always heard like
Speaker 1: everyone knew someone that either seen one or like had
Speaker 1: a track that they found in like cast or. It
Speaker 1: was just like you know it was. It was. There
Speaker 1: was always stories of people seeing mountain lions and people
Speaker 1: having like I haven't seen him, but like heard of
Speaker 1: people who had like has pictures of mount lines that
Speaker 1: they had killed because they were like killing the chickens
Speaker 1: or something that kind of ship. You know, This dude
Speaker 1: in my home state wrote this book, Beast of Never
Speaker 1: Category odd. I think it was what the book was called,
Speaker 1: but it was about him getting all obsessed with mountain
Speaker 1: lions in Michigan, which wanted him not being bullshit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they just moved. Yeah. Well, I mean, like this dude
Speaker 1: right here northing. It's not even like that big of
Speaker 1: a deal. Dude, five six miles man, Yeah, a freaking links.
Speaker 1: How far that links? There was a documented lion that
Speaker 1: went from the Dakotas to Connecticut in the last ten years. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think they think he swung around up through Uh.
Speaker 1: I think they think that that dude swung around up
Speaker 1: through Michigan's Upper Peninsula, dropped down from Canada into the East.
Speaker 1: That's like one guess of how he might have gone.
Speaker 1: I heard he got on a FedEx cargo plane chasing
Speaker 1: chickens and got out on the other side. Okay, so Spencer,
Speaker 1: you were right. Spencer sent me a thing where he's like,
Speaker 1: I bet you A hundred people sent you this, and
Speaker 1: they had tell, tell talk about what it was that
Speaker 1: the hundred people have sent me. Spencer recently this week
Speaker 1: out of Kentucky and elk antler turned off that looks
Speaker 1: very old and carved into it, says d boone Um.
Speaker 1: And then it has the year seventeen and the story
Speaker 1: goes this, this antler was found in the late eighteen
Speaker 1: hundreds and was passed through some generations and has now
Speaker 1: wound up with the r M E f um. And
Speaker 1: there's all this excitement around it on Facebook, for example,
Speaker 1: Rocky Mountain Foundation. On Facebook, for example, it's been liked
Speaker 1: four thousand times, commented on seven hundred times, and shared
Speaker 1: five thousand times because people are excited that this antler um,
Speaker 1: which came from the species of elk that is now extinct,
Speaker 1: turned up in Kentucky. It's not a species of elk,
Speaker 1: Spencer subspecies if not not prop No, no, okay, I
Speaker 1: don't buy Okay, go on, here's the thing, I I said,
Speaker 1: do you see them like, I'm sure this has crossed
Speaker 1: your inbox? So I don't want to get into the
Speaker 1: subspecies thing. But I'll point this out, at the time
Speaker 1: you had elk just from one end of the country
Speaker 1: to the other, there wasn't like unique population groups. They
Speaker 1: probably all intermingled. But but sure, that's fine. A geneticist
Speaker 1: would would not agree with that. Well, I'm gonna tell
Speaker 1: you what the Facebook post said and why I said that.
Speaker 1: It says resource private land biologists Joe lace Field the
Speaker 1: Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation funded the Carbon fourteen dating of
Speaker 1: the antler and it was traced back to the extinct
Speaker 1: subspecies of eastern elk. The carbon fourteen test dated the
Speaker 1: elk to have died in the range of the years
Speaker 1: between seventeen thirty and eighteen o six. I would like, here,
Speaker 1: here's there a thing I would like to see that report,
Speaker 1: because having done some C fourteen submissions, they usually give
Speaker 1: you these things in like sigmas. Okay, they they give
Speaker 1: you these things where it's like percentage, like these like
Speaker 1: percentage likelihoods, and it'll go like thirty three p sixt likelihood.
Speaker 1: I would like to see is the report included there no, no,
Speaker 1: the that's that's the best evidence they give. And then
Speaker 1: they end the thing by saying, there's no way to
Speaker 1: prove that Boone inscribed the antler, but the evidence says
Speaker 1: it is likely. Okay, is not a legitimate I mean
Speaker 1: like we're we're saying that this is a legitimate news report. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: we're saying that they there is an elk Antler that's undisputed.
Speaker 1: It has D. Boon written on it, that's undisputed. They
Speaker 1: submitted it for C fourteen dating radio carbon dating. That's undisputed.
Speaker 1: It came back with that date range. But I would
Speaker 1: just be curious to see what probability they abscribed to
Speaker 1: the accuracy of that date range. Can I Can I
Speaker 1: jump in here a minute? Top police radio carbon? Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: that's pretty fascinating, man boy. Yeah, oh yeah, No, No, no,
Speaker 1: it is. It is, And I'm not even saying that
Speaker 1: it's not. D. Boon's Daniel Boone. Boone would have been
Speaker 1: during that time from eighteen o six eighteen thirty. He
Speaker 1: didn't he die in the eighteen twenties. Steve in Missouri. Uh,
Speaker 1: someone could pull that up, teens, pull it up, seth,
Speaker 1: See how fast you know what I would type in? Seth?
Speaker 1: I would type in um Daniel Boone Whearing. When did
Speaker 1: Daniel Boone die Well, He died in Missouri. Boon first
Speaker 1: arrived in in Tucky in seventeen sixty nine and settled
Speaker 1: with his family at Boonsboro in seventeen seventy and again
Speaker 1: this through the Revolution. This antler was dated between seventeen
Speaker 1: thirty and eighteen o six. The Earth, Boys and Girls
Speaker 1: is bombarded by cosmic rays from the sun. Okay, mm
Speaker 1: hmmm uh. The thing that is produced by the bombardment
Speaker 1: of these cosmic rays is a radioactive substance called C fourteen.
Speaker 1: You tracking spencer, you're fact checking. It's taken up by plants.
Speaker 1: Anything that is alive that eats plants or eats things
Speaker 1: that have eaten plants accumulates C fourteen. C fourteen stops
Speaker 1: accumulating in these organisms when they die, So you stop
Speaker 1: consuming plants, you stop consuming things that consume plants, and
Speaker 1: you stop your intake of C fourteen that is building
Speaker 1: up in your bones. C fourteen has an known half life,
Speaker 1: So if you take a bone and you can look
Speaker 1: at the rate of decay of the C fourteen in it,
Speaker 1: you can tell how long ago the things stopped being alive. Now,
Speaker 1: once they started testing atomic weapons, so from anything that
Speaker 1: was alive like C four team won't work any like,
Speaker 1: you can't radio carbon anything that was alive from the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties on, because then like atmospheric radioactive substances are
Speaker 1: so prevalent that our our systems are all out of whack.
Speaker 1: Like if you checked us, you wouldn't be able to
Speaker 1: do you wouldn't be able to radio carbon. Date I
Speaker 1: remains in the future because we were alive for all
Speaker 1: that radioactive material that's in the atmosphere now from a
Speaker 1: testing atomic bombs, detonating atomic bombs and whatnot, So it
Speaker 1: doesn't work anymore. Then there's it comes into this thing
Speaker 1: called dendro chronology where the rate at which these cosmic
Speaker 1: rays but barred the atmosphere fluctuates through time. It's not constant.
Speaker 1: So what they're able to do is take, for instance,
Speaker 1: tree rings from old trees, and they're able to count back.
Speaker 1: Like if you cut a tree down right now, and
Speaker 1: I can count back. Let's say I find some three
Speaker 1: year old tree. I can be like, okay, I just
Speaker 1: cut the tree down, and I can look and I'd
Speaker 1: be like, this ring was laid down. I know three
Speaker 1: years ago, because I've counted from the core right to
Speaker 1: get to where this ring was laid down, and then
Speaker 1: you can look in that ring at the Sea fourteen
Speaker 1: that was laid down in that ring that year, and
Speaker 1: you can get an idea of the relative bombardment of
Speaker 1: of these rays, and that's what helps you calibrated out.
Speaker 1: But it's like imprecise. When I had my buffalo skull done,
Speaker 1: I came in with a sixty six percent probability that
Speaker 1: it died within a couple of dead cads of seventeen seventy.
Speaker 1: So I would just like to look at the report.
Speaker 1: We'll go on Spencer. Well, maybe like the best reason
Speaker 1: to be skeptical is because there have been trees in
Speaker 1: like Kentucky and Tennessee that were these landmarks at one
Speaker 1: point where Daniel Boone supposedly carved his name in there
Speaker 1: and like left a cute little note like one of
Speaker 1: them was like d Boone killed a bar on tree
Speaker 1: year seven year, seventeen sixty And a number of these
Speaker 1: like trees exists in that area. But there's there's like
Speaker 1: a lot disputing like, well, actually he spelled his name correctly,
Speaker 1: but in this tree it was spelled incorrectly. There are
Speaker 1: other receipts of him writing Bear correctly, but in this
Speaker 1: tree again, like this is extra folksy. How he spelled
Speaker 1: his name wrong, spelled Bear wrong, etcetera. Um. So there's
Speaker 1: just like it seems like some pride in that area
Speaker 1: of having Daniel Boone are to facts and you know,
Speaker 1: going all the way back to the eighteen hundreds when
Speaker 1: these trees were you know, cut down and like put
Speaker 1: on display and stuff like that, and it feels a
Speaker 1: lot like, Uh, I'm from South Dakota, but I consider
Speaker 1: myself like an honorary Minnesotan um. And they have the
Speaker 1: Kensington run still in there. Are you guys familiar with that?
Speaker 1: Like the the giant piece of rock late in the
Speaker 1: earth that came up in the roots of a tree
Speaker 1: where some vikings had inscribed in this rock that like
Speaker 1: through the Great Lakes and stuff. Um. But of historians say, no,
Speaker 1: that's that's a lie. But this popped up, you know,
Speaker 1: hundreds of years ago. Because they have like this great ah,
Speaker 1: like they take a lot of pride in in Daniel Boone,
Speaker 1: or people in Minnesota take a lot of pride in
Speaker 1: vikings beating Christopher Columbus to America. That's what it feels like.
Speaker 1: I can't remember if it was in Robert Morgan's Boone
Speaker 1: biography or the fair Riger biography, one of these Boom biographies.
Speaker 1: In the end, he talks about um all of the
Speaker 1: alleged artifacts, that there was a cottage industry of writing
Speaker 1: boon on stuff, and that you could fill ten houses
Speaker 1: with all the stuff that supposedly came out of Boone's
Speaker 1: house and guns that have boon on him and hatches
Speaker 1: that have It was like because he was a celebrity
Speaker 1: his own era, you know, he was like he was
Speaker 1: like famous while he was alive, and so I don't know, man,
Speaker 1: it's like modern social media, like people writing stuff in
Speaker 1: trees like back in the eight hundreds, it's like making
Speaker 1: a Facebook post. Or Albert Morgan, who you were referring
Speaker 1: to you is going to be a guest on Kentucky
Speaker 1: Outdoors Media UM to talk about the pose it Boone Antler.
Speaker 1: What's his take on the Antler? We don't know. He
Speaker 1: hasn't been on yet, but he's done some other He
Speaker 1: hasn't done any other interviews about this Antler. The Antler
Speaker 1: came up on December three days ago. So this is
Speaker 1: all fresh. I'll put it to you this way. If
Speaker 1: God came down, Let's say Chester. Let's say Chester came over,
Speaker 1: and Chester said, I know, because somehow I've had contact
Speaker 1: with an omniscient being, I know the answer, this is
Speaker 1: Boone's antler or not? Like I know through magical abilities,
Speaker 1: I know the true answer. And he said to me,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you. You have to take a guess
Speaker 1: Boone's antler not Boone's antler. If you get it wrong,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shoot you in the head. Okay, So here
Speaker 1: I am. I have to get it right. Is it
Speaker 1: Boone's antler or not? I'll be shot dead if I
Speaker 1: get the answer wrong. You know what I would say,
Speaker 1: I'd say not Boone's aniler. Put in that situation the
Speaker 1: Boone artifact thing is is funny that you bring up.
Speaker 1: We're publishing an article on the meat eat or dot
Speaker 1: com today called the Guns of wyatt Earp, looking at like,
Speaker 1: what guns did the cinematic wyatt Earp carry? What guns
Speaker 1: did the dime novel wha earb carry? And what guns
Speaker 1: did the real life while wyatt Earp carry? The reality
Speaker 1: is that nobody really knows um and There's been guns
Speaker 1: sold many times at auction that claimed to be wide ARBs,
Speaker 1: but everyone would dispute it um and and nobody really knows.
Speaker 1: So that that feels very much like this Daniel Boone thing.
Speaker 1: So you don't actually know if he carried a cold peacemaker.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to read the read the article to
Speaker 1: get an idea of what what people think he actually carried.
Speaker 1: In the history of the cinematic and the now bold
Speaker 1: version of wider stuff, Spencer, what would you do if
Speaker 1: Chester held the gun to your head? You say, not
Speaker 1: Boone's antler. I'd say that bone. You're gonna be living
Speaker 1: to tell a notre tale, To tell a tale, what
Speaker 1: are the odds that would be Boone's and not just
Speaker 1: like a newcomon there or Ranella or some or Morris
Speaker 1: anything like that. How did this one antler from an
Speaker 1: extinct not subspecies of ELCV Daniel Boone's subscripture signature on it?
Speaker 1: You think it's old. I think it was a phony
Speaker 1: from a long time ago. If I had to guess,
Speaker 1: I don't really know. I mean, who the hell am
Speaker 1: I don't know? Does it look like it's been drammled
Speaker 1: in there that Yeah, that was what I thought, And
Speaker 1: surely they tested this, But I mean, like you could
Speaker 1: find it. It wouldn't be that big a deal to
Speaker 1: find an elk candler from the early eighteen hundreds and
Speaker 1: then drimble into it and maybe leave it in the
Speaker 1: mud for five years and then pull it out. I'll
Speaker 1: be clear. I think a dude scrap said in their
Speaker 1: long as time ago. That's what I think. Uh, Spencer,
Speaker 1: you you had provided a you had provided a recommendation
Speaker 1: of a transition, a segue to another topic of conversation.
Speaker 1: But I don't want to steal your transition. So do
Speaker 1: you want to do your own transition? No, you do it.
Speaker 1: You'll you'll probably do it better. You're such a fan. Okay, Um,
Speaker 1: you know how Spencer was just talking about Daniel Boone.
Speaker 1: Well we're gonna talk about Boone and Crockett Club for
Speaker 1: a minute. How is that? That was a great Yeah,
Speaker 1: our podcast guest Jim Heffelfinger sent us in this article, Um,
Speaker 1: and I think that he might have been kind of
Speaker 1: responding to when we had him on and we were
Speaker 1: talking about, uh, when we had the Boone and Crockett
Speaker 1: Club people from the Booing Crockett Club on and we're
Speaker 1: talking about like how things like Boone and Crockett Club.
Speaker 1: And see when people talk about like a deer having
Speaker 1: a shot at one sixty white tail, right, you're talking
Speaker 1: about like a measurement system. There's a way to do
Speaker 1: you measure bear skulls is the way you measure dear antlers. Um.
Speaker 1: And there's like record books, so if you shoot a
Speaker 1: big buck you measure You're go like wow, this box
Speaker 1: a white tail and you send it off and they
Speaker 1: put in their record books and um. There's this article
Speaker 1: the heffle Finger sent us that that spencer will break
Speaker 1: down a little bit about criticisms of that system, like
Speaker 1: is it really helpful because it's kind of become like
Speaker 1: like Boone and Crockett Club. The score has become like
Speaker 1: a so it's a social thing. It's like a way
Speaker 1: to brag up whatever. But they like they but they
Speaker 1: point out that it had like a scientific foundation and
Speaker 1: this heffel Finger sent us this article that kind of
Speaker 1: lays into this a little bit. And the criticism would
Speaker 1: be that if if you are trying to track a
Speaker 1: population of critters, how is it helpful to only look
Speaker 1: at the biggest ones. If there's a minute mom size
Speaker 1: to get in, what are you really learning that minimum
Speaker 1: size being? For like, I think a typical white tail
Speaker 1: is one sixty and non typical is I don't know,
Speaker 1: one seventy or one eight. Um are are you really
Speaker 1: actually like learning trends about the health of populations or not?
Speaker 1: So if you're only interested in the big ones, yes, well,
Speaker 1: because the big ones are the indicators of a healthy
Speaker 1: population of animals. Did y'all know I'm a boon an
Speaker 1: official boone Crocket score? No? I didn't know that. So
Speaker 1: this is this. I love this topic because on the
Speaker 1: surface it does seem it's easy to buy what this
Speaker 1: guy's saying. But it's a little bit deeper than that.
Speaker 1: To understand it. In that you gotta go back to
Speaker 1: originally when this system was built. It was built before
Speaker 1: much of our modern science, and the way to understand
Speaker 1: the health of systems. An indicator was the number of
Speaker 1: older mature males. So basically they quantified the a number
Speaker 1: that's that said this is a mature, healthy species and
Speaker 1: so UH typical Boon and crockert act. The reason BOODH
Speaker 1: Crocket UH awards and gives preference to symmetry. Is because
Speaker 1: symmetry typically indicates health. That's I I know that argument,
Speaker 1: but that is bs well, but it's it's actually not
Speaker 1: uh the back in the day, back in the day,
Speaker 1: if a big but that throws a little sticker out
Speaker 1: his right antler, you know, you don't look at and
Speaker 1: be like, oh, something must be wrong with them. Well
Speaker 1: now now it's not talking about that though. And again
Speaker 1: you gotta think this, this was this system was designed
Speaker 1: in the you know, a hundred years ago. What it
Speaker 1: is talking about is when you have an animal that's stressed,
Speaker 1: you get massive amounts of dissymmetry. I mean, like, you know,
Speaker 1: the back right leg is messed up, the right antler
Speaker 1: is going to be messed up up left opposite, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: with the front leg. If the front right leg is
Speaker 1: messed up, then the front right antler is messed up
Speaker 1: with the leg it's the opposite, yes, And and hey
Speaker 1: the other thing. And I love it that this came
Speaker 1: up and just stop me because I could take the
Speaker 1: next hour and talk about this. And I'm not a
Speaker 1: big score guy, Like I'm not gonna go like I
Speaker 1: have no goals to like kill Boone Crockett animals. But
Speaker 1: I mean, like I would just assume kill a hundred
Speaker 1: forty deer on the mountain over here. That I love
Speaker 1: is go to Canada and kill one. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I mean, like, I don't. I'm not a
Speaker 1: score guy, but I think there's relevance to it because
Speaker 1: of its historical precedence and at the time, actually trophy
Speaker 1: hunting quote unquote like and that meaning targeting an animal
Speaker 1: because the size of its head gear is actually what
Speaker 1: helps save North American hunting. Because the brown is Down
Speaker 1: philosophy was the way it went. We we're coming out
Speaker 1: of an era of market hunting, going into an era
Speaker 1: when all these guys were saying, Nah, don't you know,
Speaker 1: we gotta leave the females and young, we gotta leave
Speaker 1: the juvenile males. I'll tell you what I'll do. Let's
Speaker 1: make let's let's make a number. Let's make a scoring
Speaker 1: system that rewards killing an older mature mail. And let's
Speaker 1: make that culturally cool to kill an older mature mail.
Speaker 1: And it totally took the pressure off of females and
Speaker 1: young and juvenile males and put it on older mature species,
Speaker 1: which you've already contributed to the gene pool, and which
Speaker 1: are the best animals from a conservation standpoint to take out,
Speaker 1: especially in a vulnerable herd. So like, you gotta think
Speaker 1: about it that way. And now you know, a hundred
Speaker 1: and twenty five years later, the Boonoo Crockett Club is
Speaker 1: doing the main focus of the organization is not their
Speaker 1: record keeping. They still keep records, but the main focus
Speaker 1: of their their thrust is conservation efforts and dissemination of information.
Speaker 1: And they're funding a whole bunch of stuff. You know.
Speaker 1: They just have this niche that they work in. And so, man,
Speaker 1: when people give BC a bad rap, I got the man,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'll kick your I'm not giving BC a
Speaker 1: bad rap. No, no, no, not you, Steve. I know
Speaker 1: you would. I know you're not. Really, I'm not saying you.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying people because people do. And it's because
Speaker 1: they don't know. They couldn't tell you what I just
Speaker 1: told you. You know, it's super embarrassing to me, Clay.
Speaker 1: I spent my whole life saying my old man was
Speaker 1: a score because he was like, dude, I know he
Speaker 1: scored for Pope and young, But I always said he
Speaker 1: was a scorer for commemorative Bucks of Michigan, Boone and
Speaker 1: Crockett and Pope and young. But then the dudes that
Speaker 1: Boone and crock had told me, your old man wasn't
Speaker 1: a score because they went and looked in the database
Speaker 1: and his old his name wasn't in there, so he
Speaker 1: was lying or I didn't remember right, But he was
Speaker 1: a score because everybody, I've all few grown up people
Speaker 1: would bring their gear over to have a score them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And originally the scoring of deer was was like very rudimentary.
Speaker 1: It was like spread and length of time and that
Speaker 1: was it. But then in nineteen fifties we got the
Speaker 1: model that we now know today. We're on like a
Speaker 1: five by five buck, you would have twenty measurements or
Speaker 1: something like that. Um, So, you know, I think the
Speaker 1: main thing to think about too, like to just say
Speaker 1: this is like solid rational thinking that takes into account
Speaker 1: the last hundred years of what's happened in American North
Speaker 1: American conservation is that a scoring system turned the hunting
Speaker 1: culture from a market hunting culture into a conservation hunting
Speaker 1: culture by putting emphasis on older mature males. I think
Speaker 1: it's that simple and That's why we had tipped to
Speaker 1: it today. That's why we say, oh man, he killed
Speaker 1: a buono crocket buck. Guys say that and they have
Speaker 1: no idea what they're saying. I mean, people say it
Speaker 1: all the time and and and it's it's like, heck, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm glad somebody stepped up to the plate and changed
Speaker 1: us from a bunch of market hunting fools. So the
Speaker 1: criticism of that decay would be like in, and he's
Speaker 1: not hacking on BC, That's right, I understand the criticism
Speaker 1: would be there like in it's not useful, like there
Speaker 1: there are other ways that we could uh measure the
Speaker 1: health of a population of critters, And so they we
Speaker 1: and we do. That's right, And so hefl Finger and
Speaker 1: Taylor Lashar, who has written for the Meat Eater dot
Speaker 1: com very recently, they looked at Pope and Young Dallas,
Speaker 1: Safari Club and Boone and Crockett tracked the trends over time,
Speaker 1: and they wanted to see if they all basically agreed
Speaker 1: with each other on like the trend of the or
Speaker 1: of deer um. And if they did agree with each other,
Speaker 1: then you could see why this is relevant and why
Speaker 1: this information would be helpful if they didn't agree with
Speaker 1: with each other, Say you had the you know, Boone
Speaker 1: Crockett club was really high in the fifties and now
Speaker 1: it's really low. For like, the score of critters and
Speaker 1: Pope and Young was really low in the fifties and
Speaker 1: now it's really high. Then then you could argue that
Speaker 1: these criticisms, um like are legit. What they noticed, though,
Speaker 1: is that all three clubs agree with each other on
Speaker 1: the trend of the score of antlers from like the
Speaker 1: fifties up until now, meaning that this is relevant. You
Speaker 1: can like assess something based off of only looking at
Speaker 1: the top one per cent of critters only because they
Speaker 1: all agree that that was my understanding from a criticism,
Speaker 1: that's a criticism. No, No, he is saying that because
Speaker 1: Pope and Young has the same trend as d C I,
Speaker 1: and because d C I has the same trend as
Speaker 1: Boone and Crockett, that you could actually look at these
Speaker 1: numbers and like make some informed decisions by only looking
Speaker 1: at the biggest things that have the biggest antlers and
Speaker 1: the biggest horns. I wish I would have read this
Speaker 1: thing myself, because I'm telling you that's what it says
Speaker 1: oh my god. But okay, think about places where where
Speaker 1: they are not big deer. Let's just take white tails
Speaker 1: that we're all familiar with, Like, there's not a lot
Speaker 1: of Boone and Crockett deer coming out of Mississippi, Georgia, Arkansas,
Speaker 1: and it's it's because are populations of deer for the
Speaker 1: habitat are are sometimes overpopulated. Um, you know, like big
Speaker 1: deer coming out of the Midwest, or we probably have
Speaker 1: some of the healthiest deer herds in the country minus
Speaker 1: c W D. But man, here's why Spencer didn't read
Speaker 1: the article right. Think about it like this. Let's say
Speaker 1: I said, I'm gonna find a way to measure the
Speaker 1: health of humans by measuring their thumbs. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: what I do is I measure the length of their thumb.
Speaker 1: Then I measure around the big knuckle, and that thumb
Speaker 1: gets a score. And this is how I'm gonna track
Speaker 1: how well humans are doing. Is are they making big
Speaker 1: people with big thumbs. At the same time, Chester here says,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna attract how well humans are doing
Speaker 1: by measuring thumbs. But what I'm gonna do is I'm
Speaker 1: gonna measure the length of the thumb, and then the
Speaker 1: circumference of the thickest part of that thumb, regardless of
Speaker 1: where it sits. And Seth then says, yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: check the well being of humans by measuring thumbs. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna measure the length of the thumb. Plus I'm gonna
Speaker 1: take four circumferences off the thumb and the thickness of
Speaker 1: the nail, and the thickness of the nail. He's gonna
Speaker 1: measure the thickest of the nail too. So here we
Speaker 1: have Buona Crock, I'm boone Crock, Club Chester so far
Speaker 1: club Seth is poping. Okay, we're all measuring thumbs a
Speaker 1: little different, but we're all measuring thumbs. But they do.
Speaker 1: They do have difference, very minute different. That's why I'm
Speaker 1: trying to make these thumb measurements minutely different. If later
Speaker 1: someone said, oh, what his Ronella's thing about measuring these
Speaker 1: stupid thumbs to see how well people are doing? Um,
Speaker 1: let's test whether it's appropriate to see what Chester and
Speaker 1: Seth thumb measurements are like. And Chester and Seth are like.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, bro, um, I've noticed the same thing with
Speaker 1: my thumb measurements. That doesn't tell you anything. Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a lot this this analogy. I'm not sure it
Speaker 1: flies because it's actually it's actually a perfect analogy. We
Speaker 1: don't know that human thumb length has any correlation to
Speaker 1: human health. We do know antler development. We did know
Speaker 1: that antler development, which is directly related to animal health,
Speaker 1: is is massively correlated. Hey here, I think this could
Speaker 1: help solve some of this debate. I want to make
Speaker 1: up quick bet with you, Clay. Okay, I'll bet you
Speaker 1: five dollars that Spencer is not doing a good job
Speaker 1: of telling us what the article is about. Can I
Speaker 1: read you a few sentences from the article? Let me
Speaker 1: make my bet first. I mean, who's deciding if he's
Speaker 1: done this? I'll bet you a dollar then, okay, alright, Spencer,
Speaker 1: prove that you're reading the article right. This is from
Speaker 1: the article. If trends in horn and antler size were
Speaker 1: being influenced by a minimum entry score biased, then we
Speaker 1: would expect that different record different records programs with different
Speaker 1: minimum size requests that hard story about the direction and
Speaker 1: the strength of trends. For example, the strength of trends
Speaker 1: in the horns and antlers recorded by the Boone and
Speaker 1: Crockett Club with a higher minimum should be less than
Speaker 1: the trends in the poping young records with a lower
Speaker 1: requirement from well, you didn't tell me that part? What
Speaker 1: what part did I leave out about the minimums and
Speaker 1: all that? Yeah, I said that the minimums that there's
Speaker 1: like check or cash. No, because here's the thing, here's
Speaker 1: the thing. Just because he understood it doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: he delivered it properly. I've been working with this guy
Speaker 1: for a little while, and I'll tell you if there's
Speaker 1: one thing that Spencer new heart is, it is it
Speaker 1: is like correct in you know, Okay, he he's on
Speaker 1: his game. So he was, Yes, I'm changing my complaint.
Speaker 1: He understood it well, but in explaining it to me
Speaker 1: now he left out the part that would have made
Speaker 1: me understand. Now here's here's my Now it's making total sense.
Speaker 1: And they saw the trends were the exact same. See,
Speaker 1: I knew if Hefflefinger sent it over, it had to
Speaker 1: have been reasonable. That's why that's why I thought you
Speaker 1: were messing it up. My gripe with the Boone and
Speaker 1: Crocket Club is not the Boone and crock Club's fault.
Speaker 1: It is when people hold up states like Wisconsin and
Speaker 1: say that they are the big buck king because they
Speaker 1: have more Boone and Crockett and Pulping Young records than anybody.
Speaker 1: But I am sure that they do not kill two
Speaker 1: or three times as many giant deer as a state
Speaker 1: like Texas. It's just that the culture prioritizes entering them
Speaker 1: in places like Wisconsin. Yeah, and then in Texas. You
Speaker 1: gotta remember if it's high fence that they won't know,
Speaker 1: they'll still accept it in some other not Boon and Crockett. Well, no,
Speaker 1: they do, but they also don't they keep track of
Speaker 1: road kills and stuff and some other sort of thing. Well,
Speaker 1: so Boone Crockett Club keeps track of all animals despite
Speaker 1: method of kill, and they even keep records of pickups
Speaker 1: because again it's a biological record. So it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: if a hunter kills it or not. Spencer, you can't
Speaker 1: get in the like, you can't sort of be honored
Speaker 1: if it's a high fenced deer. Texas doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be Texas in this argument either, it can be any state.
Speaker 1: Wisconsin does not kill twice as many big giant bucks
Speaker 1: as Kansas, despite them having twice as many entries in
Speaker 1: the books. Yeah, you think so dudes in Wisconsin have
Speaker 1: a higher proclivity or have there's a greater chance that
Speaker 1: some bugg in Wisconsin is gonna register his buck through BNC. Think.
Speaker 1: I think that's because all the buck pools at the
Speaker 1: bars could be because the score their deer to win
Speaker 1: the stuff, to win the money. You know, I buy that.
Speaker 1: I think you're I think you're sort of onto something there.
Speaker 1: But you're also talking about hunter numbers when you're talking
Speaker 1: about Wisconsin and Kansas. I mean, like incredibly more hunters
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin than Kansas. But I think your points well taken,
Speaker 1: And I don't think the Boone Crockett Boone Crockett Club
Speaker 1: is trying to say that this is an infallible biological record.
Speaker 1: You know, at the time it was created, it was
Speaker 1: the best we had. It was innovative in it. It
Speaker 1: worked to turn a market hunting culture into a conservation
Speaker 1: culture where we said we're going to we're gonna give
Speaker 1: value to older mature males and a species. So that's
Speaker 1: a good thing. But what you're saying, Spencer is is
Speaker 1: right there. There could be holes inside of it, But
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that it's totally invalid. You know, in
Speaker 1: Boone and crock it's not saying that. You know, certainly
Speaker 1: every deer that net Boone and Croc nets Boone and
Speaker 1: Crockett is not being scored, that's for sure. But but ah,
Speaker 1: I think it. I think it has I think it
Speaker 1: has good historical precedents. One thing I will say is
Speaker 1: that the net score is what people get tripped up
Speaker 1: on as they say, that's not relevant. And that's where
Speaker 1: you take the symmetrical difference from one side and deducted
Speaker 1: from the other. They're in the animal is penalized in
Speaker 1: the scoring system, and people are like, that's not relevant.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think I think Boone and Crockett
Speaker 1: they can't change the way they score animals because they've
Speaker 1: been scoring animals for a hundred and twenty years. Do
Speaker 1: you understand that. It's like right here, yeah, So, I
Speaker 1: mean I think all those guys would say, yeah, there
Speaker 1: there may be a better way to actually evaluate the
Speaker 1: size of a white tailed dear rac but we're not
Speaker 1: gonna do it because we can't because they would invalidate
Speaker 1: all the scores behind it. You know. So I think
Speaker 1: when you look at it, like the idea that the
Speaker 1: Boone and Crockett Club is just a bunch of ego
Speaker 1: driven guys wanting to see you as the biggest buck.
Speaker 1: It's just not true. I mean, it's just really not
Speaker 1: I mean, I and we know these guys, Steve, you
Speaker 1: know a lot of these guys, and I mean they're
Speaker 1: their conservation minded hunters just like us that you know,
Speaker 1: very few, very few guys are chasing scores. That's my thoughts.
Speaker 1: That's fine, that's good. Well are you gonna debate me
Speaker 1: on Oh? I don't know, we can. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just kind of feel like I feel like it's
Speaker 1: it's like leading to something, man like, it's gonna lead
Speaker 1: to us going toe to toe on something. Oh I
Speaker 1: don't know. Okay, you didn't have it. I thought you
Speaker 1: had a specific Oh no, no no, oh now I'm disappointed.
Speaker 1: I just want to swear off on something, man so
Speaker 1: real quick, speaking of watch this segue, Spencer speaking of
Speaker 1: deer having um big old antlers. Uh. I magine if
Speaker 1: they had big old tusks take it away, seth, And
Speaker 1: they used to that was good over good. They don't anymore.
Speaker 1: But some dear it's rare. Some dear still have fangs
Speaker 1: or K nine's and the month Jack. Yeah, there's there's
Speaker 1: still species of deer out there that have them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: his name. One of them is the month Remy shot
Speaker 1: one month. Where are they from? Keep talking anyway, there's
Speaker 1: a South Asia, there's Asia. He's got little tusks, yeah,
Speaker 1: great big tuscans. Um. There's a podcast listener that that
Speaker 1: wrote in and sent a picture of a deer he
Speaker 1: shot in South Texas, um that had canines. Um, And
Speaker 1: so I started looking in a deer with K nine's
Speaker 1: and UM found an article written by Kip Adams back
Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen where he cited a lot of
Speaker 1: people in here. Um. But basically, uh K nine is
Speaker 1: like an evolutionary throwback to ancestral deer that had big
Speaker 1: K nine's big fangs. Um, and that's what like elk ivory. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because the vestigial tusk like it used to have a
Speaker 1: tusk out doesn't. Yeah, which do you think you think
Speaker 1: like thousand years from now they'll eventually just be gone?
Speaker 1: You think they'll evolve away from that? I don't think
Speaker 1: a thousand years is ten thousand million. I don't know
Speaker 1: I think it's headed towards the going away. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: just don't need them. It's headed towards going away. Um.
Speaker 1: But there was interesting studies done, um, you know, across
Speaker 1: the US, and it kind of seems as if like
Speaker 1: really like depending on the region, it's more prevalent than
Speaker 1: other places. For instance, UM, in Michigan's Upper Peninsula there
Speaker 1: was they looked at a hundred and sixty six deer
Speaker 1: and found that four of those deer, which is two points,
Speaker 1: we had k nines. Um. They looked deer in the
Speaker 1: Lower Peninsula, they looked at a hundred thirty four which
Speaker 1: one of them had K nine which is point zero seven. UM.
Speaker 1: In Florida they looked at deer. Four of those had
Speaker 1: K nine's four. So I don't know, could be that
Speaker 1: deer in in certain areas they're still holding onto that
Speaker 1: ancient ancestral trade. Yeah. We had a guy right in
Speaker 1: I remember this dude right and in. But another dude
Speaker 1: wrote in recently and he had shot a fanged a
Speaker 1: tusked buck. I think it was in Florida that had
Speaker 1: this crazy facial matt marking, like it had like this
Speaker 1: mask on its face black and they were saying that
Speaker 1: that was sort of like this this you know, this
Speaker 1: like this recessive gene that had been triggered in that
Speaker 1: deer for whatever reason. Louisiana was it Louisiana a crazy
Speaker 1: looking like face mask similar to other deer forms. It
Speaker 1: had a black y on its face. At the top
Speaker 1: of the y started it like its pedicles, and then
Speaker 1: it met like like where its eyes are, and then
Speaker 1: that why the bottom of it continued all the way
Speaker 1: down to its nose. And that was the marketing. Jim
Speaker 1: Heffinger was quoted an article about that deer saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's just like a throwback um piece of genetics that
Speaker 1: made it into this deer. In he also talked about
Speaker 1: the black markings on their face. If you look at
Speaker 1: a white tails lower jaw, can you picture white tails
Speaker 1: lower jaw where it has that black ring like right
Speaker 1: behind its nose. That is where the fangs would have
Speaker 1: stuck out in a white tail, and it'd be black
Speaker 1: there to make them show better other deer and show
Speaker 1: them how big and impressive their fangs are. So you
Speaker 1: see that black ring along the bottom jaw. I like that, man.
Speaker 1: One last thing, when I touch on real quick, another
Speaker 1: dude wrote in tell this story south Yep. So there's
Speaker 1: another dude that that rode in. He's from Um, Southeast
Speaker 1: New Hampshire, and he wrote in about a buck. He
Speaker 1: thought it was a buck, a buck that he killed
Speaker 1: um in southeast New Hampshire. He said it was in
Speaker 1: an area that has very high hunter density, a lot
Speaker 1: of pressure. Um. He shot at November nine and it
Speaker 1: was with three other doughs. It was four deer altogether,
Speaker 1: and he thought it was weird when the deer came
Speaker 1: through that the buck was the first of the four.
Speaker 1: So the buck was leading the dos, which but it
Speaker 1: wasn't a buck. It wasn't a buck. You would think
Speaker 1: November nine that the buck would be in the back,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't a buck. He shoots this deer. Oh,
Speaker 1: I got what he's saying. It was unusual because yeah,
Speaker 1: the buck would always be following the dos. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: got you. Yeah. Let me let me plug an article
Speaker 1: real quick. Pat Jrking is publishing an article in the
Speaker 1: media dot com in January that talks about why the
Speaker 1: bucks and bulls are always last when they're walking out
Speaker 1: at night and you're waiting to kill him. Why are
Speaker 1: they always last ones I already know. I have have to
Speaker 1: read that one. I don't really know. Um. Anyway, So
Speaker 1: this this guy, he shoots his deer and it it
Speaker 1: goes a short distance and falls, and he calls a
Speaker 1: buddy to have him help him, and why he's waiting
Speaker 1: for his buddy goes down and looks like for first blood. Um.
Speaker 1: And while he's doing that, he noticed a a spike
Speaker 1: comes around and by a grunting and all hot and bother,
Speaker 1: because can you do that grunt even though you can't
Speaker 1: do the squeal of or the roar of a weasel?
Speaker 1: Yeah right, all right, all right, um. Anyway, he comes
Speaker 1: all he comes by, all hot and bothered. The close
Speaker 1: distance finally sees him, spooks off, and the guy here's
Speaker 1: body shows up. They started tracking the deer and uh,
Speaker 1: same buck comes through again grunting and sees him again
Speaker 1: spooks off. So on you know one of these deer,
Speaker 1: I think they assumed that it was the one that
Speaker 1: d shot um, even though it was carrying round antlers. Um.
Speaker 1: So they they took they took this deer to get aged,
Speaker 1: and the biologists just recently got back to him and
Speaker 1: said it was seventeen years old that is unbelievable. Transgendered
Speaker 1: dear go in too estras though I don't know. I
Speaker 1: mean it's it had all the female organs, That's what
Speaker 1: That's what I was gonna say. I'm I'm not sold
Speaker 1: on the idea that antler dough would be fertile. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean maybe only maybe it didn't throw
Speaker 1: antlers every year. And the guy that wrote it wrote transgender,
Speaker 1: but spelled it d e e er like a little
Speaker 1: joke transgender transgender. Um, I wonder, and I honestly wondered.
Speaker 1: This does the but if she comes into heat, she
Speaker 1: comes into estras and the and the buck goes the breeder.
Speaker 1: Does the bucket thrown off? Is there? Does the buck
Speaker 1: register like something's not right when it sees the antlers?
Speaker 1: Or does it just like he he smells what he
Speaker 1: needs to smell and that's all he cares about. I
Speaker 1: think it from like a year behavior standpoint, a buck
Speaker 1: would see the visual queue of antlers from a long distance,
Speaker 1: and he might come in to investigate, thinking he's about
Speaker 1: to get in a fight. Once he got closer and
Speaker 1: actually engaged the attention of the dough that had antlers,
Speaker 1: that dough would begin to send body signals that she
Speaker 1: wasn't a buck, and he would then that would then
Speaker 1: override the visual que that this is a buck because
Speaker 1: of antlers. I don't care what you got on your head.
Speaker 1: Yeah here for I think I think that smell just
Speaker 1: just trumps everything. Yeah, that time of year, that's all
Speaker 1: they're thinking about. No judgment. Just curious, man, Yeah, just curious.
Speaker 1: Someone's gonna fill up our inbox with like a trail
Speaker 1: camp photo of a buck mounting another buck. It's happened,
Speaker 1: for sure. Uh. Now we're gonna start getting pictures of that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then uh when when you're separating Kyle's in their calves,
Speaker 1: and and and when they're coming into you know, uh,
Speaker 1: never mind, there's situations where out of it, there's situations
Speaker 1: where cows mount cows, steers jumping on each other all
Speaker 1: the time. So the stuff goes on. Now, Clay, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna see you very soon. We're gonna go deer hunting.
Speaker 1: You can't decide if you're gonna bring your bow or
Speaker 1: your gun. You don't need to decide right now. I
Speaker 1: want to tell you something I do not believe and
Speaker 1: bringing both. I think it's wrong. I don't believe in
Speaker 1: bringing both. If you're a bow hunter, then be a
Speaker 1: damn bow hunter. Don't come and be like I'm gonna
Speaker 1: try with my bow and then switch to my gun
Speaker 1: because I'm a bowl hunter only up to the point
Speaker 1: where I might get afraid that I won't be successful. Okay,
Speaker 1: can I it's immoral. I would like to refer to
Speaker 1: my lawyer, Spencer me heart, and I would also like
Speaker 1: to say that I am not like fighting for this position,
Speaker 1: but you've been hitting that. You hinted to me, Oh,
Speaker 1: I've been bringing both and I will not hunt with you. Well,
Speaker 1: what Spencer, I'm gonna let Spencer talk first, he's itching
Speaker 1: to go. I I was fighting for Clay to bring both.
Speaker 1: Me like take your both for a few days. Third
Speaker 1: day rival, I think one of the worst sayings in hunting.
Speaker 1: And it's something that I heard on the outdoor channel
Speaker 1: when I was probably like twelve or thirteen years old,
Speaker 1: and uh it it like ruined me for a period
Speaker 1: of time. And it was this outdoor show that I
Speaker 1: was watching where the woman was at some big buck
Speaker 1: outfitter and I don't recall. I can take a guess,
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I could take a guess, but it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be fair to them if I was wrong. They were
Speaker 1: at like some outfitter in Iowa or Kansas, and it
Speaker 1: was the last day of the hunt, and like a
Speaker 1: hunter and twenty inch probably three and a half year
Speaker 1: old white tail buck walks by and they choose to pass,
Speaker 1: and then uh they cut to the interview and the
Speaker 1: woman says, now, you never shoot something on the last
Speaker 1: day that you wouldn't shoot on the first, and that
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, like, that's that's good advice, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's good advice. That she stole that from Yanni
Speaker 1: and messed it all up. So so I I take
Speaker 1: a lot of issue with that saying. And you're saying
Speaker 1: a version of that that, Like I you're saying that,
Speaker 1: like you cannot go into a haunt and move the goalpost.
Speaker 1: You can't go into hunt and be like, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: kill a hunter and fifty inch buck and then on
Speaker 1: the second to last day you're like, well, of course,
Speaker 1: of course, and then then a hunter and buck walks,
Speaker 1: but kill that instead. How is that okay? How is
Speaker 1: that different than what you're telling I just think showing
Speaker 1: up with all kinds of weapons that you have like
Speaker 1: in your head sort of teared out as like best
Speaker 1: case you know, I'd be like, well, I'm really trying
Speaker 1: to get one with my bow now. Failing that, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna try to get with my rifle. Failing that, I
Speaker 1: will try to get on with my truck. It's just
Speaker 1: like I just like, just make up your mind. Man,
Speaker 1: isn't here, Here's here's the nick of your mind. What
Speaker 1: when you when you say that what you are prioritizing
Speaker 1: in your hedgemon of of ideas is that the method
Speaker 1: of kill is most important. And I used to know
Speaker 1: you are, but can I used to be I I
Speaker 1: steve you're This is touching on some deep rooted issues
Speaker 1: inside of me because I grew up with such a
Speaker 1: strict bow hunting, in such a strict bow hunting world
Speaker 1: that like, I mean, we we didn't have guns. We
Speaker 1: we we bow hunted. And as I became an adult,
Speaker 1: I feel like, and I still all loved bow hunt,
Speaker 1: That's like my default thing to do, but I kind
Speaker 1: of just became okay with using a gun, and so
Speaker 1: I kind of and and obviously I still love to
Speaker 1: bow hunt, but so I look at it more from
Speaker 1: a the macro hunt picture like I would like to
Speaker 1: go where we're going and take a good white tail deer.
Speaker 1: I would prefer to do it with a bow. I
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm against, don't I don't know what
Speaker 1: I'm up against. But Steve, I want to say too,
Speaker 1: I'm on your team on this. I like what you
Speaker 1: said that that I was like, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I like the idea of not switching. I
Speaker 1: don't like to switch. I've switched before, and I've brought
Speaker 1: a bow and I've brought a rifle or a bow
Speaker 1: and a shotgun. It just never seems to work out
Speaker 1: for me that well because I'm not I like the
Speaker 1: commitment at least when for me it's just it hasn't
Speaker 1: worked out that well. It's like bring the bowl, stick
Speaker 1: with it, or bring the situation too. Is we have
Speaker 1: a very short time period, you know, we we don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of time to get this done. But
Speaker 1: so I'm on your team, Steve. But it's like a
Speaker 1: hard never do that philosophy, you know, I got I
Speaker 1: think we give I think we've got to give some
Speaker 1: grace to me. That's like some version of what that
Speaker 1: woman said on the outdoor channel, and that was a
Speaker 1: mantra that it went buy for a while that I
Speaker 1: would like to go back and retroactively kick my own
Speaker 1: ass for like passing on deer, because I was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, you never shoot a deer in the
Speaker 1: last day that you wouldn't shoot on the first. It's
Speaker 1: saying there, there, it goes both ways. Are day ever
Speaker 1: pass up on the first day what you'd be happy
Speaker 1: to have on the last I'm telling you what this
Speaker 1: woman said on the outdoor channel that caused me to
Speaker 1: pass on many deer in the future, that I would
Speaker 1: I wish I could go back and does deer because
Speaker 1: I would have been happier in the moment shooting that
Speaker 1: younger buck than not shooting it. And then just like
Speaker 1: having that matra rolling around in my head, like you
Speaker 1: don't shoot a buck on the last day, you wouldn't
Speaker 1: shot them the first. That's not good, dear management. I'll
Speaker 1: have the last word. Uh No, that's different. That's all Clay.
Speaker 1: I don't care what in the world you bring down there.
Speaker 1: You just bring one of them. No, I actually have
Speaker 1: your rifle on bringing it, so you either decide either way.
Speaker 1: I'm bringing to the rifle. Yeah. I like the archery
Speaker 1: idea though. Oh yeah, I think that's what you should do. Man,
Speaker 1: we'll have a hell of a lot of fun. Let's
Speaker 1: do it. The cool part about that this one is
Speaker 1: gonna be peak rot um rattling is gonna be very effective.
Speaker 1: And the interaction you're gonna have at close distances by
Speaker 1: rattling bucks in is gonna be pretty sweet. And we're
Speaker 1: on like private land in Texas that barely no one
Speaker 1: gets the hunt on. It could be really good. It
Speaker 1: could be really good. I think it's gonna be. If
Speaker 1: it was anything like last year when we were there,
Speaker 1: when Steve was hunting Neil Guy last year, yeah, I'd
Speaker 1: be like, oh, look at Zebra. It was. It was
Speaker 1: insanely good and we weren't hunting white Tail's. Well, I've
Speaker 1: got a decoy. I picked up a decoy today, a
Speaker 1: real mobile decoy that we can just pop out real quick.
Speaker 1: It's a pop up decoy, double sided, pop up decoy,
Speaker 1: Montana decoy. So man, we'll pop that thing out. We'll
Speaker 1: just have to be pretty strategic with our setup because
Speaker 1: you're gonna be rattling for me, Steve, right, yeahs are
Speaker 1: unifairy bit about too much rattling and not enough randoling.
Speaker 1: We'll get it all sorted Outcoy. I don't know if
Speaker 1: our friendship is gonna hold up, but we'll get it
Speaker 1: sorted out. Oh man, Alright, guys see you, guys see
Speaker 1: sa