1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural. 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 2: And the unexplained. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Get ready now for Beyond Contact with Captain Wrong. 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,639 Speaker 3: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 3: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 3: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 3: to Coast AM, employees of premier Networks, or their sponsors 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 3: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 3: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself. 11 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 4: Hey everyone, it's and Ron and Each week on Beyond Contact, 12 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 4: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of 13 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 4: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from 14 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 4: the newest cases. 15 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 2: As we talk with the top experts. Hian, Welcome to 16 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron, and today we're speaking 17 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 2: with doctor Mark Rodeger. Mark has been the president and 18 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,919 Speaker 2: scientific director of the Jay Allen Heinez Center for UFO 19 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 2: Studies since nineteen eighty six, though he's actually worked at 20 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 2: the center since nineteen seventy four. Soon after its inception, 21 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: he works professionally as a consultant in statistical analysis and 22 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 2: data analytics. He has investigated a wide variety of UFO areas, 23 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: including cases involving vehicle interference, physical trace evidence cases, abduction cases, 24 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: especially the psychology and the sociology of abduction experiencers. And 25 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: he has led the KUFOS investigation for the Roswell crash 26 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: back and I believe nineteen eighty nine he did that. 27 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 5: Hey, Mark, welcome darkin Ron. It's great to be here. 28 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: Great to see you, great to talk to you. You've 29 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: done great work. Again, as I mentioned, you know a 30 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: lot of people are sort of unsung heroes in this field, 31 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: and you carrying on the legacy at j ellen Heinek 32 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: is amazing. We like to dive right in here beyond contact. 33 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: So I want to ask you right out the gate. 34 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: You know clearly you've been looking at this phenomenon for 35 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: a long time, at least fifty three years by my math. 36 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: So I want to know, after looking at this UFO 37 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: topic for that long period of time, do you have 38 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: any idea what's happening. 39 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 5: I have ideas that I might be or things I 40 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 5: might be leaning for. But let me start by saying 41 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 5: you know, I don't know what's happening. No one does, 42 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 5: of course, because we don't have definity proof or any 43 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 5: hypothesis my time travelers, extra dimensional crazy psychology theories, straightforward 44 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 5: alien By the way, aliens is almost the most straightforward. 45 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 2: Sure, there's no magic involved, nothing supernatural. It's just nuts 46 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: and bolts. They just need time and technology. That's that's easy. 47 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 5: Yeah. You know, something much hotter, which my Italian colleague 48 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 5: Massimotiaterni physicists thinks about, is living plasma, right, glowing balls 49 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 5: of life that actually might be alive. Let's face it, 50 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 5: that's further out then and again, just you know, straightforward. 51 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: Is visiting the much so I agree, I am. 52 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 5: Honestly open to any possibility because nothing's proven yet. That's said. 53 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 5: One thing that's happened during my career in the UFO 54 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 5: field has been but has become much more plausible that 55 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 5: aliens or their technology could be there. First, we know 56 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 5: about all the exoplanets that are out there, We know 57 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 5: about the possibilities life and extra biology is being studied, 58 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 5: and we know more about our biology and the the 59 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 5: idea of the faster than light barrier, which which still 60 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 5: holds despite romols. We don't know. If you can tratle 61 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 5: faster than light, it doesn't really make any difference if 62 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 5: you can have self replicating rolls, you know, and look 63 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 5: at the AI. 64 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 2: Was like a von Newman probe kind of thing exactly. 65 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 5: And so but it's super advanced, you know, way beyond 66 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 5: what we can conceive. And so they've had time to 67 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 5: populate the galaxy and if they're incredibly intelligent, they can 68 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 5: create artificial beings that are combination of biology and you know, 69 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 5: machine that they could ask that we could be seen 70 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 5: when things land on the ground and you have a 71 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 5: close encounter who says it's a biological creature completely that. 72 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 5: So therefore, you know, an extraterrestrial civilization have sent their technology, 73 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 5: you know, broadly put here. And the answer is, of course, 74 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 5: there's enough time for them to do it in terms 75 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 5: of travel, the technology would be there. The and the 76 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 5: the limiting factor to really these days when you studied 77 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 5: the Dragon coursion, it was usually a lifetime of a civilization, 78 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 5: you know, and it was, well, they live long enough 79 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 5: to do this. My answer would be yes, if they 80 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 5: start out sending out chromes like that and their self 81 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 5: duplicating they're working and functional on their own, they don't 82 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 5: need direction. Then they can outlive the civilization. 83 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: Right that civilization could be long gone and blown themselves 84 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 2: up or whatever, and yet their technology is still gone. 85 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: And that makes more plausible sense to me than than 86 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: than just about anything. 87 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 5: Yeah. Now, now that's said, Okay, you know our extra 88 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 5: dimensions possible? Yeah, maybe, and maybe there're something's coming directly 89 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 5: from there, are you know, is it? Are there possible? 90 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 5: By the way, I do think some of that, let's 91 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 5: put aside, a living plasma, but certainly to some of 92 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 5: the UFO events appear to be some kind of weird 93 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 5: plasma ish ionize stuff that we don't understand. The hes 94 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 5: style of Norway stuff and the sightings there, many of 95 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 5: them are like that. And that's one of the few 96 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 5: areas where it's almost like the UFO laboratory where you 97 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 5: could go there and measure things. The sightings happen regularly enough, 98 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 5: so I'm sure some of those are happening as well. 99 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 5: So it's it's a broad spectrum, but you know, I 100 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 5: still I still think a part of it is likely 101 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 5: to be extra for us with I would say that. 102 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: So yeah, I've I've kind of moved to fifty one 103 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: percent sure that I think that that's probably happening as well. 104 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: You know, I think you've said that many of these 105 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 2: direct witnesses that have had these sightings, or even people 106 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: have had direct alien contact. You said that they're the 107 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 2: kind of people that you'd believe just about anything they say, 108 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: But when they say they saw a spacecraft or an alien, 109 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: suddenly we think, well, I don't believe them. It's such 110 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 2: a hard thing for people to grasp. Do you think 111 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: that's the problem or do you think it stems from this, 112 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: you know, incredible stigma and negative connotation that's been placed 113 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: on this subject for seventy years. 114 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 5: In terms of believing witnesses exactly. You know, let me 115 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 5: start with something that even as a kid, it struck 116 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 5: me so back in the sixties and I was reading 117 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 5: UFO books and I reading citing it couch, and I 118 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 5: thought to myself, well, if this was anything else, we 119 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 5: would believe this Poston, because they would have a sighting 120 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 5: in broad daylight, without any strange stuff going on. You know, 121 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 5: they would just be in their car or someplace in 122 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 5: a UFO was zip by and they would see it. 123 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 5: And I would think, well, yeah, why should I believe 124 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 5: that they saw something? Now I'd become more sophisticated than 125 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 5: I know that there are nuances to this and people 126 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 5: make mistakes and so forth. Well, I think fundamentally the 127 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 5: ULFA witness data are fairly accurate when people report this 128 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 5: is particularly daylight siding, you know, nighttime sidings, and it's 129 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 5: no more difficult to side. Okay, as far as the 130 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 5: stigma involved, sure, it's way less than it was. I mean, 131 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 5: when when I was first involved in the field, people 132 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 5: would not want to report UFO sighting. They wouldn't even 133 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 5: tell their spouse because they were worried about what even 134 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 5: their closest person in the world that would think. And 135 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 5: that of course that has changed over time. It's so 136 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 5: easy to report things online now at various online reporting photos. 137 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 5: So but but there's a lot of stigma there about 138 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 5: the experience, not so much the witness I don't see 139 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 5: a lot of these days, a lot of people saying 140 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 5: much about the witnesses. A few and you know, a few, 141 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 5: but generally the the sensible critic of comments on the 142 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 5: on the UFO UAP subject simply, witnesses are mistakement, you know, Yeah, 143 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 5: they're probably the regular site. These are normal people, sure, 144 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 5: but people just make mistakes. It's anecdotal evidence. We can't 145 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 5: you know, count now close encounters strange experiences, you know, 146 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 5: that's a whole other area. When people have very intense 147 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 5: in counties, whether it's an abduction experience, so they they 148 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 5: feel somehow connected to the UFO that they saw light, 149 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 5: they feel a message. 150 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 2: From it, or they blink a light and the light 151 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 2: blinks back at them. There's a communication sometimes. Yeah. 152 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, those are C five cases where you know c 153 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 5: e foors or abductions and CE five or where you 154 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 5: try to communicate, like you said, and it blinks back 155 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 5: at you. Those are on a different scale. And that's 156 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 5: where going back to your first question about hey, what 157 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 5: do I think about that? I think where there could 158 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 5: be some other level of reality, you know that we 159 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 5: who fundamentally don't understand that is another component of this. 160 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 5: What I'm sure of is that the UFO phenomena is 161 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 5: not a unified thing. It's got many separate components, and 162 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 5: part of it could be this strange reality that we 163 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 5: can't lasp at all, and that even parapsychologists may be 164 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 5: more close to studying that over the years, you know 165 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 5: than than people in the UFO understood. 166 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: We need to take a quick break here. When we 167 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: come back, we're going to ask Mark more about these 168 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: cases of alleged direct alien contact. You're listening to Beyond 169 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 2: Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal 170 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 2: podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact and we're 171 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: speaking with Mark Rodeger from KUFOS. Mark, this is one 172 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 2: that's even tougher than just the UFO sightings. We've been discussing, 173 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: what about this idea of the abduction cases or direct 174 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: contact experiencers. What do you feel is the best evidence 175 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: we have for this phenomenon originating from a non human source, the. 176 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 5: Best evidence, and there's not a lot of it. Of course, 177 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 5: are still instances where there is some external evidence beyond 178 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 5: what the people say, and I'll give you a couple 179 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 5: examples of that. But there are many cases where people 180 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 5: recover memories about their experience, not through it knows their 181 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 5: focused meditation, but they actually have some memory about what 182 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 5: happened to them. The first case that I investigated with 183 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 5: doctor Eine in nineteen eighty, my first abduction case was 184 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 5: one where a fellow was riding from a college and 185 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 5: Central ele No, visiting his girlfriend there back to Chicago. 186 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 5: Consciously remembered seeing the UFO, and he consciously knew he 187 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 5: had missing time, but he didn't remember a lot else, 188 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 5: and that that was an instance for hypnosis was required. 189 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 5: But there are other times where people remember even more, 190 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 5: but it's memories, okay. Better cases are ones where the 191 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 5: person had missing time and then missing time is documented 192 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 5: by other people where there's just no way that they 193 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 5: should have been missing, but they but they were missed. 194 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 5: Or there are they get up in the morning and 195 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 5: their clothes are on backwards, yeah from what they went to. 196 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: Tay I've heard they have even like had not their shoes. 197 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 5: On, yeah, exactly, or there's weird stains on the bed 198 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 5: now on. One of the difficulties is, you know, how 199 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 5: do you document push your clothes were on backwards? Because 200 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 5: basically you get up and you say, what what's this 201 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 5: and then you you know, you just take the clothes 202 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 5: off and put your regular clothes off for the day 203 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 5: and away you go. So these kind of things are 204 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 5: hard to documents. But think about it's the same thing 205 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 5: with that I said earlier about where this is in daylight. 206 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 5: Forget the fact that I'm not an abductor you and experiences. 207 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 5: But okay, if I wake up tomorrow and my jam 208 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 5: at bottoms are backwards, you know, I mean, I'm not 209 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 5: going to not notice that, right, I'm not going to 210 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 5: have done it myself. I don't sleep walk or something, 211 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 5: so it's clearly strange. And my spouse didn't sneak in 212 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 5: and I didn't do it, so their instance is like that. 213 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 5: Now notice the difference though, So you were missing for 214 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 5: a while, or your closer on backwards, or there's a 215 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 5: weird stain on you know that wasn't there? What does 216 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 5: that mean? This is the thing. We have UFO data 217 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 5: of all type sightings and so forth, and we have 218 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 5: the things I'm talking about, and of course people have 219 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 5: to have traumatic experiences. Yea, we might talk about that, 220 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 5: but there's you know, we know that some experiences are 221 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 5: not pleasant and not not the kind of thing that 222 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 5: you want experience. But does that mean that some other 223 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 5: intelligence caused it? Extra terrestrial? You know? The NHI is 224 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 5: the current term non human intelligence. So was it caused 225 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 5: by a non human intelligence and some kind or what? 226 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 5: And the answer is, the actual data doesn't tell you. 227 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 5: It just tells you something really strange happened. Now, there 228 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 5: are cases, one of the absolute best ones Steve when 229 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 5: though hypnosis happy to be used for those that It 230 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 5: was the buck Ledge buff buck Ledge case from Vermont 231 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 5: and investigated by one of the best, Walter Wett, who 232 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 5: also was the first investigator on the famous Hill case. 233 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 5: And so we got the case at Kupos and we 234 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 5: folded it onto wall and because we got a contact 235 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 5: to someone, is said, I'm having memories. I'm having memories 236 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 5: coming back to me about what I experience. And so 237 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 5: while contacted them and what briefly what happened is the 238 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 5: two camp councilors, the classic, you know, two camp counselors 239 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 5: at a summer camp on Lake Champlain and a girl 240 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 5: and a boy who were not dating. We're the only 241 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 5: ones that camp because the rest of the camp was 242 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 5: off with a big swim meet. There's just like that movie. 243 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: I said, it's right out of a script exactly. 244 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, Okay, So they're basically they're alone, it's sunset, they're 245 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 5: out on the dock on the pier, you know, just talking, 246 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 5: not getting nothing romantic, and they see a UFO coming 247 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 5: toward them. And it's a good old of this shape 248 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 5: UFO and it comes close to them instantaneously. The UFO's gone, 249 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 5: it's dark and they hear the campers coming back. So 250 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 5: there they at sunset, they see the UFO and then 251 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 5: just boom, snap your fingers. The time is advanced. They're 252 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 5: still there. It's dark out all the rest. Because of 253 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 5: the circumstances, they never talked about the event. Okay, over 254 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 5: a dozen years go by until this fellow contact that 255 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 5: the guy contacts us and says, I'm getting these splashbacks 256 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 5: and I'd like to investigate it. So Walth works with 257 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 5: a good hypnotist, works with the guy, and up comes 258 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 5: an abduction case all right, without telling the woman involved 259 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 5: what happened. Walth finds the woman. She agrees, with some 260 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 5: reluctance to undergo hypnosis because she's not really having as 261 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 5: many flash better. She gets hypnotized and under hypnosis, their 262 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 5: experiences are very ingluous. Why glu you know, to show 263 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 5: you the congruence. And one she says, well, I'm sitting 264 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 5: on him like a chair. I say, bob over there 265 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 5: on a tape and he's laying there, but you know 266 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 5: he's got his shorts on, but he's sure he's off. 267 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 5: That's you know, that's just that. And then Bob says, yeah, 268 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 5: they had me on a table. My shirt was off, 269 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 5: and I glanced to my left and there there she 270 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 5: was there. It was cast No, you know, communication between 271 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 5: the two, between the hypnotists or anything. Now does that? 272 00:16:59,320 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: What is that? 273 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 5: It doesn't prove anything, really, but when you hear that, 274 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 5: yours have to work up and you have to say, well, 275 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 5: I don't want to discount everything. And that's why I 276 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 5: think some abductions absolutely can be real. By the way, 277 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 5: that's a find name. 278 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: Thought extremely Yeah, yeah. 279 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 5: Abductions could be real. That means that something some nhi 280 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 5: is actually abducting people. That's disturbing, it's horrifying. 281 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 2: And you know, I also always love multiple witness cases. 282 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 2: Like the way you describe that case. That makes it 283 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 2: so much stronger for me. That two people and then 284 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: they end up having the same story. That's very compelling, 285 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 2: and I can't just dismiss it out of hand. I 286 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: agree it's not proof by any stretch of the imagination, 287 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: but I don't think we just throw it away. I 288 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 2: think there's something there of value. You know, I think 289 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 2: you guys, did a small study yourself on a group 290 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 2: of like thirteen or fourteen abductees that we're having regular abductions, right, 291 00:17:58,560 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 2: can you tell us about that? 292 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 5: Back in the early nineties abductions with hot hot hot, 293 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 5: it was like everybody was looking into it, including academics, 294 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 5: and so I decided that we needed to do a 295 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 5: serious study about the psychology of abductees and sociology. Who 296 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 5: were these people. With a lot of work, we got 297 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 5: about twenty nine or something, but it was a small group, 298 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 5: roughly around thirty people. The bottom line was all of 299 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,719 Speaker 5: them were basically normal. 300 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 2: Okay. 301 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 5: We used cluster analysis, which looks at variables and tries 302 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 5: to find similarities between groups of things. In this place, 303 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 5: the group was people, and we did find two groups 304 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 5: on the MMPI exam. One group was completely normal in 305 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 5: every measure, just like you and me walking down the street, 306 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 5: the assuming. 307 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 2: Work speak for yourself. Yeah, wait, come on, exactly. 308 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 5: The other group had some tendencies towards dissociation and so forth, 309 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 5: but nothing serious, not mentally ill, but they were a 310 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 5: little a borderline. But the bottom line was we found 311 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 5: a core group that were normal. 312 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 2: Okay. So you had these two groups of people that 313 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 2: were thirty. But then there's another smaller thing that you 314 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 2: did when you put together a monitor, right, yes. 315 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 5: In the same vein. You know how today people want 316 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 5: to go out and measure UFOs in the field, of course, 317 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 5: like the GALLEYO project and so forth, And I completely agree. 318 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 5: So in the nineties we said, you know, I'd like 319 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 5: to gather physical data on UFOs. I'd like to gather 320 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 5: physical data on abductions. And not only that, what better 321 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 5: way to do it. People say they're abducted regularly, so 322 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 5: I don't have to try to find a UFO. The 323 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 5: UFO is coming to them. So the person is in 324 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 5: part our sensor. But we can't just relig on their testimony. 325 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 5: We have to measure things. 326 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 2: That's perfect, Mark, Let's stop right there. When we come back, 327 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,479 Speaker 2: we're going to pick it up and find out how 328 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 2: you got measured, what you measured, and what your results were. 329 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio on Coast 330 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 2: to Coast am Paranormal podcast network. We're back on Beyond 331 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 2: Contact speaking with Mark about studying abductees. And you guys 332 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 2: had a small group of people that allegedly had have 333 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 2: these experiences. So you came up with this monitoring device, 334 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: tell us what that would actually monitor. 335 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 5: So we were fortunate to get a fairly large summer 336 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 5: money to do this from a sponsor who's anonymous, and 337 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 5: we put together a device very attractive because we put 338 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 5: it the people better and it looked like a nice 339 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 5: little box that you know, you might store if anything. 340 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 5: It measured the magnetic feel, the electric feel, the gravity accelerate. 341 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 5: It measured microwave radiation. It measured the temperature, that measured 342 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 5: the infrared temperature. It measured the admittity, that measured the 343 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 5: barometric pressure. All of those things were being measured once 344 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 5: per second. We had to find people who met strict 345 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 5: criteria for this study, and we could only find over 346 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 5: about two and a half or three years after a 347 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 5: lot of tests, and thirteen people that would do this 348 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 5: and they have a sting in our own for six 349 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 5: to eight months to have enough time for an event 350 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 5: to happen or more than a thing. And so the 351 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 5: way it worked was this, each person kept a journal 352 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 5: on their experiences. Now this is back in those days, 353 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 5: so it was on paper. Yeah, I know, what's that. 354 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 5: We printed it up in a bound buy very nice 355 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,959 Speaker 5: and they felled out. We had to be sure they 356 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 5: were going to be diligent about that because we were 357 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 5: spent a lot of time and effort. So we worked 358 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 5: very hard to find people that not only had experiences, 359 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 5: but we're going to be cooperative and easy enough to 360 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 5: work with and so forth. Then again we developed you 361 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 5: know that we being neglected. We developed this device. It 362 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 5: ran on our cord you know, and all that it had. 363 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 5: And again we're way back when, right, So we used 364 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 5: phone lines to send the data back every day, you know, 365 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 5: who didn't have high speed internet. We had a full 366 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 5: time project engineer, Tom Dooley, who's been in the field 367 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 5: a long time. 368 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: You know. 369 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 5: Tom was the full time guy who downloaded the data 370 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 5: every day and made sure that all of that. We 371 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 5: had to find a local investigator who would be like 372 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 5: the sponsor for the case and would install it and 373 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 5: work with this and so forth and so on. So 374 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 5: that was a lot, a lot of effort that I 375 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 5: and another fellow Rock Sly Attech went through to screen 376 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 5: people and find the ones who would good work in 377 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 5: a project. We did it. 378 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: It went. 379 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 5: The first active case began a long time ago and 380 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 5: we completed it about two and a half three years. 381 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 5: We were hoping to find external data analysis analysts, not us, 382 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 5: as you said, Ron, you know, I'm my business who's 383 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 5: doing data analysis? As it were, But because of the 384 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 5: stigma Tasher and subject, we wanted to find people not 385 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 5: involved with the project who would analyze the data so 386 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 5: there was no bias involved. Now since then, it turns 387 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 5: out that we were being too scrupulous. As it were, 388 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 5: we were too concerned because in fact, para psychologists analyzed 389 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 5: our own data all the time, and the criticism of 390 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 5: them is not that they analyzed their own data, it's 391 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 5: other things, but not fat So eventually we decided it 392 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 5: was hard frinding the statisticians who would do this, and 393 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 5: for a variety of reasons. By the way, and if 394 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 5: you can imagine, the files are very large. So if 395 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 5: you keep a device in your house for six months 396 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 5: and you record the data once every second, you have 397 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 5: about sixteen million rows of data. 398 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 2: Geez man. 399 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 5: They analyzed people did have events. I'm happy to report. 400 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 5: They could check no, nothing happened that day. They could 401 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 5: check maybe, or they could check yes, and we had 402 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 5: several yesses. Now we're still writing the paper, okay, so 403 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 5: I'm going to have to tantalize you in the audience 404 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 5: to simply say I can't reveal the results here on 405 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 5: the show. 406 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: Well, was there at least a correlation that, yes, something 407 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: happened with our data when they reported they had an event. 408 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 5: That's what I can't reveal. That's the key going. We 409 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 5: have to publish this, and you don't reveal published up 410 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,239 Speaker 5: until you actually publish it down. Okay, but what I 411 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 5: can tell you is this, it's actually pretty amazing. Until recently, 412 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 5: nobody else is trying this but us. 413 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 2: It's remarkable to me. I always felt that if something 414 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: like that ever happened to me, I would go to 415 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: every lab in the country and say, look, I want 416 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 2: to be I'll live here, film me, test me, record 417 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: me everything, and I'm price more abductees don't feel that way, 418 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 2: because that's what That's how I would feel immediately. 419 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 5: Yeah, No, that that well, we could get to that 420 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 5: in a second. As far as other investigators, you know, 421 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 5: David Jacobs tried to put cameras video camera. 422 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: And then it always got turned off or the thing 423 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 2: turned them off. 424 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 5: By the way, I can tell you, we never added 425 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 5: the problems with the device failing because of what appeared 426 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 5: to be, you know, an experience that did not happen 427 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 5: to us. We had other problems, technical problems or because 428 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 5: this was not easy to pull off in those days, 429 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 5: but but not the kind of problems where the the 430 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 5: NHI you know, interfer with the functionality of the device. 431 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 5: And Dave, Dave was not the only person who tried 432 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 5: to do something, but but it wasn't systematic. It was 433 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 5: our one thing like a camera or something. Recently, there's 434 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 5: a there's a guy named Jim's Sagala who has now 435 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 5: developed of course it's the technology is way better a 436 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 5: small device or an app on the phone that can 437 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 5: do this. So finally, but it's taken many years for 438 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 5: people to try to to do what seems to me, 439 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 5: you know obvious. Here's another obvious thing, you know, Len 440 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 5: you mentioned, Hey, if you were somebody who was experiencing things, 441 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 5: you want to go get checked out, you want to 442 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 5: get tested. Well, in fact, people say, you know things 443 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 5: were done to me, right They sometimes they say they 444 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 5: maybe drink a liquid and they did this, and they 445 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,719 Speaker 5: did that and you know, aintal proving unfortunately. 446 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: Or implants even yeah. 447 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 5: Or implant or implants and we know that they have stuff. 448 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 5: People have study that obviously, okay, But in terms of 449 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 5: what is done, if something is done to your body 450 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 5: that is intrusive, then in theory, if I take you 451 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 5: into a lab right after it happens, I might be 452 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 5: able to measure something that shows that something has happened. 453 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 5: It's nonstandard, you know whatever that means. Maybe there's something 454 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 5: in your system that's good. Well, we don't know, because 455 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 5: no stuffy's happened. So the ideal wady to treat the 456 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 5: human body as a sensor is to be able to 457 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 5: take somebody right after an experience to be examined. You know, 458 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 5: Gary nowen to the hest of the government initially did 459 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 5: this with this MRI and so forth and looked at 460 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 5: their brain. But what I'm talking about is way more 461 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 5: difficult because it requires you to have the resources available 462 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 5: and the willing people available to say, you know, last night, 463 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 5: I had an experience and I'm willing to come in 464 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 5: and have you guys, you know, throw the book at 465 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 5: me as it were in terms of medical tests. But 466 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 5: that's the ideal way to study it. But once you 467 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 5: stated that way, you go, well, obviously nobody's done this. 468 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 5: There's no way you can do that for all the 469 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 5: many several reasons. Why, you know, if somebody wants to 470 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 5: be ambitious, there's a study. 471 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 2: I would love to see that happen. I'm kind of 472 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 2: surprised no one's done it. I realize it's very impractical 473 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: and expensive and all of these limitations. But you would 474 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 2: think for all the people who claim to have had 475 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,479 Speaker 2: these experiences, one of them would have been able to 476 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 2: really really document this. He let me ask you this, 477 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: what do you feel about government disclosure. 478 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 5: I'm for it. 479 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 2: Good. 480 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 5: You know that's not a facetious combat. 481 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 2: Actually, I've actually not had anyone say no, I'm against this. 482 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 5: Well, you know, my my colleague, professor of political science 483 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 5: at Ohio State, Alex Wentz, who has just written a 484 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 5: book is going to be published I think late this 485 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 5: year by an academic press. He actually is arguing, and 486 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 5: maybe it's not good that we know about disclosure and 487 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 5: all the rest, that it might not be good for 488 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 5: the stability of society. And by the way, that is 489 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 5: the main reason that those maybe on the inside or 490 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 5: some on the outside would say disclosure is not in 491 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 5: everybody's interests. Obviously, there could be people on the inside 492 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 5: and say no, disposure is not in anybody's interests if 493 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 5: we want to keep it secret. We want to exploit 494 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 5: the information. But I know that there would be others 495 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 5: who would just say, this is what I've just said, 496 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 5: which is well, I don't know. You know, maybe basically 497 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 5: humans can't handle the truth, right. 498 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: I think that's very possible. I can imagine legitimate reasons. 499 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 2: I can't think of any reason that they would want 500 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: to share this information. 501 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 5: Let me look this way. If you start covering stuff up, 502 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 5: whatever it is, this could be in your own personal life. 503 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 5: You know, I'm having an affair and I thought about 504 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 5: revealing it to my wife, and you know, and maybe 505 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 5: I should come clean, and but I haven't done. And 506 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 5: the more time that goes on, the harder it is 507 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 5: to finally say I've been having an affair for the 508 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 5: last four years or whatever it is. Well, it's about 509 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 5: a billion times worse once you've covered it up. In 510 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 5: the nineteen fifties, let's say, yeah to now say, oh, 511 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 5: find a way about seventy years ago we started lying 512 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 5: to you about UFOs. You wouldn't put it that way, 513 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 5: but anybody listening would go, oh, so you were lying. 514 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 2: So how do we trust anything the government says going 515 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 2: for If that comes out, the only good thing is 516 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: they would say, well, those people are dead now and 517 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: they're the ones that did that. We didn't know they could. 518 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 2: So hopefully we'll get something someday. Listen when we come back, 519 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 2: we're going to ask Mark about how UFO sightings have 520 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: changed over the last half a century. You're listening to 521 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 2: Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM 522 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact. We're 523 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 2: speaking with Mark from KUFOS. Mark. Since twenty seventeen, there's 524 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: been a certainly a huge amount opening up in the 525 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: UFO space. Of course, one would think we would see 526 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: of giant uptick in UFO sightings, or at least in 527 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 2: the number of reports as people feel more comfortable about 528 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 2: making a report about this. But that's not actually what 529 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 2: we've seen, is it. 530 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 5: No, it isn't. And actually that's a very astute comment. 531 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 5: Ron and the period from nineteen forty seven till the 532 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 5: Sember of twenty seventeen, when things change we call the 533 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 5: modern era of UFOs or apology, And you say, well, well, 534 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 5: what was the year before that? It was a pre 535 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 5: modern era. That's airship sightings, ghost rockets. Right, that's the 536 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 5: pre modern era. Kenneth Arnold forward is the modern era. 537 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 5: This era is the era of public legitimacy. Interesting, even 538 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 5: though there's a stigma, clearly there's public legitimacy of various types, 539 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 5: including the interest by thogress, the interest by serious scientists, 540 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 5: by the media. Why Garrett Graft put a good book 541 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 5: on you. So that's how I revert to it. Now, 542 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 5: how things have changed your arms movie writ in your comment, 543 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 5: and not enough people are talking about this. You would 544 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 5: think that, right, there have to be more signings, of 545 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 5: course since twenty seventeen, because there's more. There's clearly more interests, 546 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 5: in more openness to the subjects, some more people would report. 547 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: Less trepidation about reporting it. Right. 548 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 5: You would also think there'd be more searches on Google 549 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 5: for UFOs UAP. Neither of those things is true. There 550 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 5: are fewer searches than they were before Deceenter twenty seventeen, 551 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 5: and there are no more. They're probably no less, but 552 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 5: there's no more sightings than there were free December twenty seven. 553 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 5: Feen now related to this as actually research I did 554 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 5: about two or three years ago was about did the 555 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 5: COVID pandemic affect the number of your forward courts? And 556 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 5: we did that because there have been theories about what 557 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 5: caused UFO reports to rise and fall, but particularly what 558 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 5: would cause large flaps or waves of UFO citing. And 559 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 5: of course one answer could be, well, yeah, the aliens 560 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 5: came here in bigger numbers, so of course we saw 561 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 5: them and that was the best what caused it. But 562 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 5: the other theory was no, it's social psychological caused by 563 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 5: stress and society, like financial crises, the oil shot in 564 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 5: nineteen seventy three, et cetera, et cetera. Well, the pandemic 565 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 5: was perfect to test his theory. So I and two 566 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 5: other folks here at Kupos who looked into it, published 567 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 5: a paper in the Journal of Scientific Respiration and showed no, 568 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 5: no increase flat pre and post pandemic, and there was 569 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 5: an increase. It was the damn Starlink satellites that are 570 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 5: up there. I was fortunate enough my wife and I 571 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 5: saw one. Yeah, they're very impressive, going over the chain 572 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 5: of the train and those satellites, but those caused an 573 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 5: increase in sightings for upon for New Fork until they 574 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 5: got things under control and told people, you know, hey, 575 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 5: this is what they look like, you know, stop reporting them. 576 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 5: So for COVID didn't affect it, and then right, the 577 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 5: new renewed interest hasn't effected. So what does that get 578 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 5: at Well, it really is an interesting puzzle and there's 579 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 5: we could come up with all kinds of conjectures, but 580 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 5: it's one thing that certainly seems to be true is that, yeah, 581 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 5: interest in UFOs, just plain interest doesn't cause people to 582 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 5: see and then look for at UFOs, and that's fundamental. 583 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 5: That doesn't tell us about what UFOs are, but it 584 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,720 Speaker 5: does tell us something about the phenomena as a whole, 585 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 5: which again I don't think you know, has increased a 586 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 5: lot recently at all. Over the years, it's changed in 587 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 5: terms of what people see, what types of the ufotes. 588 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 2: Very interesting. I want to know what your take on 589 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 2: Roswell cases now today in twenty twenty six, How do 590 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 2: you feel about Roswell. 591 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 5: You know, many serious people, new people in the field 592 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 5: who I respect, really think that Roswell had to be 593 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 5: explained as a MOVA alone or something like that. You know, 594 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 5: that is the best explanation that the folks at the 595 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 5: air base and all these just may in a state. 596 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 5: How I have personally interviewed two people involved, and including 597 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 5: Bill Rickett, who went to the site and handled them 598 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 5: with here burial, and of course Walter Hout. I read 599 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 5: extensively and listen to the tapes and the test of 600 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 5: one without it, and I thought about it, and we 601 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 5: debated it for years of FUCOS internally that Don Schmid, 602 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 5: Kevin Randall, and it is inconceivable to me that the 603 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 5: UH description by Jesse Marcel and others in Vall would 604 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 5: match the Mogil balloon. Put this puts aside the fact 605 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 5: that the Volga balloon can't be it because the one 606 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 5: everybody points to was not launched with the full balloon 607 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 5: train that would have caused all the debree it's thought about. 608 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 5: So I think that there is no rational explanation for 609 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 5: what was without I didn't say it was an alien spacecraft. 610 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 5: I said there is no explanation for what was the folt. 611 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 5: And I believe that what the folks there said about 612 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 5: this material being strange. But I am a scientist in 613 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 5: our rationalist and I can't tell you what they found. 614 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 5: I can only tell you what it was. It Lisewell 615 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 5: is not explained in my mind. 616 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's one of the great great cases too, 617 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: before the argument that it could have been in something 618 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 2: off world. I want to ask you this, and you, guys, 619 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 2: you're surrounded by books every time I see you there 620 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 2: in your background could see books. What do you think 621 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 2: are the five most not even five? Just give me 622 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 2: a couple of books that you think are like the 623 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 2: ones to read for people on the UFO topic, if 624 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: they're new to this. You'd be the guy to ask. 625 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 5: I guess, even though it's an old book and it's 626 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 5: not because he was on mentor Alan Heynez's book, The 627 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 5: UFO Experience is a great place still to get a 628 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 5: grounding in the subject because UFOL cases are still UFO cases, 629 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 5: you know, no matter well when they occur, they're you know, 630 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 5: the phenomena as he described, it is still what we experienced. 631 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,839 Speaker 5: So I guess, God, that would be number one. Number two, 632 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 5: I would say, if you want to also get a 633 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 5: really excellent introduction to the history of the subject, it 634 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 5: would be the book, again by partly some people at Kuthos, 635 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 5: Robert Powell always involved from the. 636 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 6: SEU group and others, is the book UFOs and Government 637 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 6: So if you want to know what has happened to 638 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 6: the how did the US government and other governments, not 639 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 6: just the US government, how do they treat the subject? 640 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 5: Get a good background of that. It's a pretty extensive book, 641 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 5: but it's easy enough reading, so that will give you 642 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 5: the history of the subject to say, okay, you know, 643 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,240 Speaker 5: now I really understand what's happened on the subject. Surprisingly, 644 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 5: there is no good general book on the UFO subject recently, 645 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 5: like they used to write, like, oh, give me an update, 646 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 5: So I guess I would say, I don't know. If 647 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 5: it was my top five, I would simply say that 648 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 5: the most recent book, but at least as a broader overview, 649 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 5: would be that Derek Raft book the journalists who wrote that. 650 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 5: And then finally the book called Just Ufo What a 651 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 5: Scientist Knows About UFOs by Robert Howell is another good 652 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 5: overview book on the subject. So you could do a 653 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 5: lot worse than reading those books. 654 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 2: Excellent. We now listen, your background is in statistics and analytics. 655 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 2: Have you used those skills to call this UFO data 656 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 2: that you have access to? And what stands out to 657 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 2: you from that? 658 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 5: I have, and in many ways, and I think that 659 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 5: what stands out really is the shift in the phenomena 660 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 5: that I toured in the late nineteen seventies early nineteen eighties. 661 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,720 Speaker 5: The way I always put it is that my first 662 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 5: major work in the deal is study vehicle in their parents. 663 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 5: Cases of people's cars are stuff by UFO, and I 664 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 5: that my monograph I was published in nineteen eighty one, 665 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 5: and about the moment it was published, those cases dropped 666 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 5: off the face of the earth. And I'm not exaggerating, 667 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 5: and like they declined slowly, but surely they're only about 668 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 5: fifteen percent of what they used to be. But it's 669 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 5: not just those close encounters in general have the climb, 670 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 5: and it was a worldwide trend that occurred, and so 671 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,800 Speaker 5: that it's a statistical trade, right, So that's why I 672 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 5: panted my mind. But it really it's telling us something 673 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 5: about UFOs. Of course, it's not caused by whigs supporter, 674 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 5: not caused by new technology. Yeah, cars have changed, but 675 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 5: when I say close encounters, I mean seeing little creatures 676 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,760 Speaker 5: by the UFO leaving a trace on the ground. Those things, 677 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 5: they're not affected by the new technology electric battery cars 678 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 5: or whatever like my stuff. So basically huge change in 679 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 5: how the UFOs appear to us, how they interact, how 680 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 5: they behave, and we don't have a clue as to why. 681 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 2: Is incurved interesting yet another puzzle in this in this 682 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 2: UFO world. I'll tell you, Mark, thanks so much for 683 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 2: taking the time to talk to me. I really appreciate it, 684 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 2: and we appreciate all the work you're doing. I know 685 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 2: it's sort of an unsung position, but trust me, we 686 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 2: all appreciate the work you've done and I appreciate that. 687 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 2: You Guys can find Mark at koufos dot org and 688 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 2: you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at c 689 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 2: D Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out Contact 690 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 2: Inthdesert dot com. Stay open minded and rational as we 691 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 2: explore the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast 692 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 2: to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network. 693 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast 694 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: A and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out 695 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,439 Speaker 1: all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going 696 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:52,919 Speaker 1: to iHeartRadio dot com.