Speaker 1: Welcome to woke AF with me Danielle Moody. This month,
Speaker 1: I'm showcasing some amazing artists whose work is on display
Speaker 1: here in New York at the Shed Cultural Center as
Speaker 1: part of their Open Call program. This week, I'm proud
Speaker 1: to present my conversation with Leandre Lesour, creator of There
Speaker 1: Is No Movement Without Rhythm, a video performance fusion piece
Speaker 1: about the effects rhythm has on our bodies. Leandre and
Speaker 1: I got into discussing what it is like to exist
Speaker 1: at the intersection of blackness, queerness, and womanhood identities which
Speaker 1: are all typically politicized by audiences and critics, and the
Speaker 1: process of producing art in this incredibly difficult time. Since
Speaker 1: it's the start of Pride, I am sharing my entire
Speaker 1: interview with Leandre Lesore with all of you today, and
Speaker 1: you can hear many more like this, including the next
Speaker 1: featured artists in the Open Call series, by supporting me
Speaker 1: on Patreon at patreon dot com slash woke af Enjoy, folks.
Speaker 1: I am so excited that I'm having the opportunity to
Speaker 1: welcome so many amazing black artists to woke a f daily.
Speaker 1: I am very excited to introduce you all to Leandra Lassour,
Speaker 1: who is an artist that celebrates blackness, contemplates the experience
Speaker 1: of invisibility and seeks to dismantle and reclaim stereotypes surrounding
Speaker 1: black female identity, among other subject matters, and has an
Speaker 1: upcoming exhibit entitled there Is No Movement Without Rhythm. Leandre,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for making the time to join
Speaker 1: Woke A f I want to open up with first
Speaker 1: asking how are you feeling these days? You know, I
Speaker 1: think that I will say that as a black queer
Speaker 1: woman living in America over the past year and a
Speaker 1: half has been a series of trauma roller coasters. Living
Speaker 1: as black and queer and female in this body for
Speaker 1: my entire life has been a journey of joy, resilience
Speaker 1: and the purpose and desire to take up space. And so,
Speaker 1: what has it been like creating this body of work
Speaker 1: for you during these incredibly trying times? Yeah, no, thank
Speaker 1: you for that question. It feels like a check in,
Speaker 1: and I will say that it's been rough. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we talk about the things that happened last year,
Speaker 1: but I think there needs to be well there. I
Speaker 1: feel like there is a realization, especially probably for you
Speaker 1: as well, that this has been going on for some time.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, since I was a little girl.
Speaker 1: I can you know, think about and talk about specifically
Speaker 1: about moments where I've felt this kind of extreme displacement
Speaker 1: and not necessarily understanding my place in the world and
Speaker 1: how I could exist freely. So the creation of this work,
Speaker 1: for me, and I mean all of my artwork, to
Speaker 1: be honest, has been a way for me to process,
Speaker 1: has been a way for me to appeal, and has
Speaker 1: been a way for me to kind of make a
Speaker 1: mark and make a place in the world for myself
Speaker 1: and provide myself a way to amplify my voice. So
Speaker 1: it's been tremendously Even though we're right now going through
Speaker 1: some really rough times in the world, the making work
Speaker 1: and being an artist right now has been for me
Speaker 1: kind of a sign of hope and also just for
Speaker 1: me a tremendous like lift in my spirit. So I'm
Speaker 1: grateful for that, you know that way of just speaking
Speaker 1: in terms of making art, I have always been a
Speaker 1: person that has deeply appreciated art, but specifically art created
Speaker 1: by black artists. I know that for some they really
Speaker 1: push back against the inherent politicization of black art by
Speaker 1: just by virtue of being black. Our art is seen
Speaker 1: as a body politick. What is your feeling about that,
Speaker 1: about being viewed as a black artist or for your
Speaker 1: work because it looks at the black female identity, which
Speaker 1: we know has traditionally been what the mule of America, right,
Speaker 1: the workhorse of the world. How do you understand the
Speaker 1: politics of the art and the art itself. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that's a great question. It's interesting because for so long,
Speaker 1: a lot of people used to tell me, you know,
Speaker 1: my work was specifically speaking about identity politics in this way,
Speaker 1: and I used to kind of shy away from accepting
Speaker 1: that or claiming that. And it wasn't until I started
Speaker 1: reading works or excuse me, the Kombahi River Collective their
Speaker 1: statement on identity politics, and they actually coined that phrase
Speaker 1: in a way where I was like, you know, this
Speaker 1: is something that I don't need to shy away from that,
Speaker 1: I don't need to not claim this is a part
Speaker 1: of who I am and just by my mere existence,
Speaker 1: this is something that I'm speaking to and so within
Speaker 1: my art I believe, I truly believe as an artist
Speaker 1: like I have to be in a lot of ways
Speaker 1: political and what I'm speaking on it is inherent to
Speaker 1: my existence as a black queer woman to continue to
Speaker 1: talk about those things, and even if I'm not directly
Speaker 1: speaking about it, are within the works directly speaking about it.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the things around it, the things that
Speaker 1: you know, have kind of allowed me to see myself
Speaker 1: in a certain way and the ways in which I've
Speaker 1: been able to navigate that. And so by me processing
Speaker 1: that within my own work, maybe that is allowing someone
Speaker 1: as a viewer to start to grasp their own processing
Speaker 1: and maybe even build their own tools on how they
Speaker 1: can also navigate the politics around just being black. M
Speaker 1: There was a question that was asked by a white
Speaker 1: anti racist trainer and she had asked that, you know,
Speaker 1: this is back in the nineteen seventies, and forgive me
Speaker 1: because I can't remember her name at this particular moment,
Speaker 1: but she asked a room full of white people, right,
Speaker 1: you know, if they believed in racism, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: you've seen this video the clip, and they, you know,
Speaker 1: they're like no, no, no, And then she's like, okay,
Speaker 1: so would you want to be black for a day
Speaker 1: and raise your hand? And none of them raise their hand, right,
Speaker 1: And so there has always been this sense that there
Speaker 1: is a profound grief that is associated with our blackness,
Speaker 1: and yet for me, I feel like there is a
Speaker 1: supreme radiance that is attached to our blackness and that
Speaker 1: you will never find a community of people that is
Speaker 1: steeped in more grace. Right, how do you understand or
Speaker 1: are able to articulate through your art the balance of
Speaker 1: the joy and the trauma and the gradiations in between
Speaker 1: of what it means to be black? Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: something I had to ask myself early on. I felt
Speaker 1: like my work had a lot of this inherent rage
Speaker 1: in it because I was speaking directly from from experience.
Speaker 1: And when I talk about experience, a lot of people ask, well,
Speaker 1: what are the like major things that you've experienced in
Speaker 1: terms of trauma that have allowed you to have these
Speaker 1: kind of lived experiences that have brought on this rage.
Speaker 1: And for me, it wasn't about necessarily these big moments
Speaker 1: or big events that took place, But like you said,
Speaker 1: there's this collective memory that is within our bodies, and
Speaker 1: our bodies kind of keep that and I had to
Speaker 1: really understand like how my body was like taking all
Speaker 1: of these like ways I was seeing myself through media,
Speaker 1: visual media, and just like through the news cycles and
Speaker 1: all of these projections. Even though it wasn't directly onto
Speaker 1: me or directly said to me, or me directly experiencing it,
Speaker 1: it was something that collectively was part of my memory
Speaker 1: of who I am as a as a black person,
Speaker 1: And so I had to tell myself with them the
Speaker 1: creation of my art, you know, I can't if I'm
Speaker 1: speaking about that. I can talk about that trauma, but
Speaker 1: am I perpetuating this cycle of violence and trauma by
Speaker 1: creating work that directly talks about that? And so for
Speaker 1: me it was about, Okay, well, then how do I
Speaker 1: create that balance? And so I started thinking about the
Speaker 1: other parts of my life that people don't necessarily see
Speaker 1: or hear about or understand, you know, like black love
Speaker 1: and black joy, and how radical that is in moving
Speaker 1: us and creating this buoyancy where we can exist this rage,
Speaker 1: but we can also, like you said, radiate and have
Speaker 1: this beauty and this grace amongst us that really allows
Speaker 1: us to live and to process how we exist, but
Speaker 1: to also just like exist and thrive in the way
Speaker 1: that we are with everything that happens amongst us. So
Speaker 1: for me that was really important, and I think right now,
Speaker 1: to be honest, in the core of what my work is,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking a lot about we intake violence every day
Speaker 1: on such a high level, and so how are we
Speaker 1: not just as artists, but as human beings, how are
Speaker 1: we taking those things that are violent and looking for
Speaker 1: ways to transform that into something that we can take
Speaker 1: on and still be able to move forward with our
Speaker 1: own potential and create spaces that really make room for
Speaker 1: this kind of peaceful foundation or make room for this
Speaker 1: like meditative process where we could really bring joy back
Speaker 1: into our lives. And that's been at the core of
Speaker 1: my practice, is really thinking about that transformation that's happening
Speaker 1: within myself. But then whatever I touch, whatever I create,
Speaker 1: I can push that out into the world as well.
Speaker 1: I love that so much. My mother is a yogi
Speaker 1: and onto a yoga studio here in New York, and
Speaker 1: she talks to me constantly about not taking in the
Speaker 1: negativity that we experience in the world as black people,
Speaker 1: as women on a cellular level. And I remember the
Speaker 1: first time that she said that to me, like, do
Speaker 1: not take this in, Danielle, your rage and your angst,
Speaker 1: do not allow it to attach to your cellular level,
Speaker 1: because then that is what your body will produce, right,
Speaker 1: And it is about moving outside of living in this
Speaker 1: fight or flight space, right, which is honestly pretty much
Speaker 1: the two alternatives that the world presents to us. And
Speaker 1: I feel like, but through music and through art and
Speaker 1: through dance and through so many different mediums that we're
Speaker 1: able to imagine, to dream and create something that is
Speaker 1: outside of what society is saying. You can either fight
Speaker 1: to the death or you can flee. And we're like, well,
Speaker 1: what if you float? What if you imagine? What if
Speaker 1: you dream? Talk to me about music and about the
Speaker 1: creation of this music around West Africa in vibes vibration
Speaker 1: and why that spoke to you. Yeah, And I love
Speaker 1: what you just said about this imagining because I think
Speaker 1: that that happens when I'm in the space where I'm
Speaker 1: listening to music and I'm listening to certain beats and rhythms.
Speaker 1: Music has been a huge part of my practice for
Speaker 1: some time, and I've always been questioning, well, like, why
Speaker 1: do I always come back to particular sounds and particular rhythms,
Speaker 1: And that brings me to this space where I can
Speaker 1: really feel and experience those feelings and have really moments
Speaker 1: with whatever I'm trying to process. So I started looking
Speaker 1: at specific artists, jazz artists in particular that I, you know,
Speaker 1: love and that I've been listening to since I was
Speaker 1: a little girl. And one artist in particular, Pharaoh Sanders,
Speaker 1: was someone that you know, I have like all of
Speaker 1: his vinyl records. Was listening to all of his music
Speaker 1: and started doing a lot of research on where a
Speaker 1: lot of the different sounds, like the symbol he was using,
Speaker 1: and why was he using all of these different instruments
Speaker 1: together in this kind of ensemble. And there was a
Speaker 1: kind of connection to Western African tradition and music with
Speaker 1: Nahwa traditions, And so I started listening to Nahwah ceremonies
Speaker 1: and music, and all of the instruments that they were
Speaker 1: they were using were instruments that I found not just
Speaker 1: in Pharall Sanders work, but in other jazz musicians work
Speaker 1: like Archie Shep for instance. But then also thinking about
Speaker 1: like the house music and how kind of those symbols
Speaker 1: and sounds were reverberating as well, and then even with
Speaker 1: Black gospel and thinking about these ceremonies, how they take place,
Speaker 1: and how voices amplified those were all things that were
Speaker 1: just kind of coming along through this research I was doing,
Speaker 1: and so I started thinking about the ways in which
Speaker 1: I was using music and how all of those different
Speaker 1: forms of music were very influential in how I processed
Speaker 1: my own feelings and the the ways that I reimagine
Speaker 1: the spaces that I was in. So I was like,
Speaker 1: this is something I need to translate into a work
Speaker 1: so that someone can also experience this in the same
Speaker 1: way I'm experiencing it. And that's where this project came about.
Speaker 1: You know, there's no movement without rhythm. Thinking about all
Speaker 1: of these different sounds and rhythms and how they have
Speaker 1: this really beautiful way of transcending us to another space,
Speaker 1: and also thinking about a part of the project that
Speaker 1: I'm working with. There's this kind of clip that I
Speaker 1: put in from Sunraw where he's talking about this process
Speaker 1: of us being not real, you know, our body's not
Speaker 1: being from here, but also like our spirits not being
Speaker 1: of this place, and that being a way for us
Speaker 1: to kind of expand, and in that expansion, that being
Speaker 1: a way for us to fully feel present with who
Speaker 1: we actually are. And so I think about this form
Speaker 1: of music and the way that the sounds kind of
Speaker 1: trans and it brings us outside of this physical vessel
Speaker 1: into another realm. And in that realm, we're able to
Speaker 1: fully expand and fully understand who we are and have
Speaker 1: the space to actually exist freely. And for me, that
Speaker 1: feels very profound and very radical. When we're thinking about
Speaker 1: this idea of care, and we're thinking about this idea
Speaker 1: of love, and we're thinking about the ways in which
Speaker 1: we can inhabit joy, all of those things feel like
Speaker 1: they are necessary and really really processing that you just
Speaker 1: spoke to my whole soul. You just spoke to my
Speaker 1: whole soul, because all I have been saying to friends
Speaker 1: is that I need for What I miss the most
Speaker 1: during this pandemic time is live music. I miss. I
Speaker 1: miss what it feels like to experience beats and rhythm
Speaker 1: and base penetrating through you as a collective. And when
Speaker 1: you talk about house music like so for me, and
Speaker 1: everybody knows this about me, particularly my neighbors that live downstairs,
Speaker 1: how much how much gospel house music speaks to my soul.
Speaker 1: And I think about it because I think about our
Speaker 1: bodies being made up primarily of water. I think about
Speaker 1: the vibration about how why we undulate in certain ways
Speaker 1: because of the vibrations and how they connect to our bodies,
Speaker 1: which are these bodies of water. And I think about
Speaker 1: that often. And what I've been talking about a lot
Speaker 1: on WOK A F two and you you spoke about
Speaker 1: this in terms of expansiveness, in terms of not being
Speaker 1: of this vessel, is that I've been talking about times
Speaker 1: of trauma and how they break us open, and that
Speaker 1: in order to expand, something must be broken open to
Speaker 1: create more space. Cracks aren't just about this dismantling of
Speaker 1: this perfect thing, this perfect vessel, but it is about
Speaker 1: breaking open and the cracks allowing there to be flow right.
Speaker 1: And I think about where the opportunity is that we
Speaker 1: are currently living in, in all of the obstacles that
Speaker 1: we are going through, about moving from this kind of
Speaker 1: container where all people weren't equitable, all people can't fit,
Speaker 1: and breaking it open, and what would it mean to
Speaker 1: create a mosaic instead where you're honoring the shattered pieces,
Speaker 1: where you're honoring all of the pieces right. But in
Speaker 1: a mosaic all things can fit right because there is
Speaker 1: so much more space that's been created outside of the
Speaker 1: origination of the vessel. So when you set all of
Speaker 1: those things, I'm like, there's like all of these images
Speaker 1: going through my head, you know, thinking out rhythm and
Speaker 1: how we move together as a collective. What are you
Speaker 1: hoping that people walk away with after experiencing your art?
Speaker 1: What are you hoping that they gain from this installation,
Speaker 1: from this work? Yeah, I think the main thing for
Speaker 1: me is I really like to think of a lot
Speaker 1: with my work about this idea of confrontation, but not
Speaker 1: a confrontation to in any way make someone feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: A confrontation to really question your presence and question within
Speaker 1: that presence if you're really seeing and if you're really
Speaker 1: listening and not just what we look at surface level,
Speaker 1: but a deep seeing in a deep listening. And I
Speaker 1: think for me it's really important because within a lot
Speaker 1: of my work, I'm the main subject. I'm at the forefront,
Speaker 1: and for that reason, it's because I'm confronting, you know,
Speaker 1: the image that has been projected onto like who you
Speaker 1: think I should be, who you claim me to be,
Speaker 1: But this is who I am presenting myself as. And
Speaker 1: with that, I know I'm also carrying the identity of
Speaker 1: so many other people that came before me, but also
Speaker 1: so many other people that are here right now with
Speaker 1: me in my community. You know that that carry the
Speaker 1: identity of blackness, that carry the identity of queerness, and
Speaker 1: also that carry the identity of womanhood. And so with
Speaker 1: the work, I'm hoping that people actually are confronted and
Speaker 1: they question their ways of seeing, they question their ways
Speaker 1: of listening. And with that questioning, they also kind of
Speaker 1: challenge their their privilege. Whether they're black with or they're white,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter about race, but challenge that inherit privilege
Speaker 1: that we all have within us. And I feel like
Speaker 1: for me that's really important because with that challenge that
Speaker 1: could really bring people to within themselves kind of break open,
Speaker 1: allow for an easier flow in connection with someone else,
Speaker 1: and that can open up this you know, this connection
Speaker 1: and threat of empathy, and that for me is really
Speaker 1: really important within the work I'm creating. Have you found
Speaker 1: that during this time your creative process because of the
Speaker 1: times that we're living in, has it shifted? Has it
Speaker 1: been different? Have you noticed ways in which you are
Speaker 1: experiencing and expressing this art. If you had created it
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen or twenty eighteen, it would have been
Speaker 1: different than it is now. Yeah, I mean to be honest,
Speaker 1: I think with everything that's happened with the pandemic, we
Speaker 1: have slowed down quite a bit. And I feel like
Speaker 1: a lot of the work I've been creating for a
Speaker 1: while now, I've always been thinking about, like, how are
Speaker 1: people taking this in? Like I'm really forcing you to
Speaker 1: kind of slow down and take it in, and I'm
Speaker 1: confronting that as well. And I feel like with the pandemic,
Speaker 1: because people have slowed down, I feel like people are
Speaker 1: a little bit more, They're not reluctant anymore to do that,
Speaker 1: And for me, that's been and really nice to see
Speaker 1: that kind of transition happened. So I feel like it
Speaker 1: is a little bit changed in that way, But outside
Speaker 1: of that, the context of it has always been the same.
Speaker 1: You know. I've always been speaking directly, you know, to
Speaker 1: who I am directly to, you know, these different modes
Speaker 1: of blackness, in the various ways of being black, and
Speaker 1: that has never changed. And so I just think the
Speaker 1: way that people are taking in and listening and seeing
Speaker 1: has maybe adjusted quite a bit based on the pandemic
Speaker 1: and based on this idea of us all as a
Speaker 1: collective community slowing down. Do you have my last question
Speaker 1: for you? Although I feel like genuinely I could speak
Speaker 1: to you for there for a very long time, do
Speaker 1: another one later? Right, I'm like, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Do you find yourself as you've been navigating this space,
Speaker 1: creating this body of work, but given the headlines, the
Speaker 1: things that we have been inundated with over the past year,
Speaker 1: do you feel yourself in a more hopeful and faithful
Speaker 1: place or or not. I'm gonna be honest, I go
Speaker 1: through waves. Um. You know, there are days, there are
Speaker 1: times where I feel very hopeful, um, and I feel
Speaker 1: very at ease and at peace where I'm at as
Speaker 1: a singular, you know, individual, um. But then there are
Speaker 1: days where I really really feel the weight of my
Speaker 1: community and the things that are crushing, um, you know,
Speaker 1: crushing all of us, you know, through everything that's happening,
Speaker 1: and not just my community, like my Black community, but
Speaker 1: thinking about people in all different communities going through things
Speaker 1: and the struggle that is just like the struggle that
Speaker 1: is just there. Um. And so for me, like again,
Speaker 1: you know, like I said earlier on the call, um,
Speaker 1: this outlet, for me, the creation of art has been
Speaker 1: really really helpful um in in processing that, and it's
Speaker 1: been helping me get through these kind of waves of
Speaker 1: back and forth worth of feeling down but then also
Speaker 1: having these moments of feeling really radiant and high and
Speaker 1: high off life. So I feel like that's always going
Speaker 1: to happen. You know, who's going to be going through things.
Speaker 1: We're always going to be kind of going through these struggles.
Speaker 1: But I think at the end of the day, I've
Speaker 1: always been kind of looking to the people around me,
Speaker 1: my family, my friends to really help me in processing that,
Speaker 1: and that's been a beautiful thing as well. Well. I
Speaker 1: have such deep gratitude for artists, for creators, for dreammakers
Speaker 1: like yourself who help us articulate within your mediums how
Speaker 1: we're all feeling right and reminding us that we're not
Speaker 1: alone and that there is still beauty in the world
Speaker 1: with the amount of pain and trauma that we are
Speaker 1: living through. Please tell folks when your work premieres, when
Speaker 1: they can see it, and where they can see it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there is no movement without rhythm. I'll be at
Speaker 1: the shed. June fourth was the opening date and it
Speaker 1: will be up until August early August, and I'm very
Speaker 1: excited for it. There also will be a performance in
Speaker 1: the works, so I'm also very excited for that live
Speaker 1: aspect and having people experience that as well. Well. I'm
Speaker 1: excited to live at the Shed this summer. That's apparently
Speaker 1: what I'm going to be spending my time. I'm doing
Speaker 1: because there are so many phenomenal works to see. Leandre
Speaker 1: list Seur, thank you so much for making time to
Speaker 1: join wok F. Appreciate you. I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 1: I appreciate this. Thank you. Leandre's comments about our deep
Speaker 1: and sexual connection to rhythm touch my spirit and I
Speaker 1: hope it touched yours as well. Please let me know
Speaker 1: what you think of my conversations with these creative minds
Speaker 1: by getting at me on social media at D two
Speaker 1: sets D E two c E nts and once again,
Speaker 1: you can hear more conversations like this, including next week's
Speaker 1: open call artists right now by joining woke a F
Speaker 1: Nation over at Patreon at patreon dot com slash woke af.
Speaker 1: By having these discussions at the intersection of art and activism,
Speaker 1: I hope to expand the meeting of what it means
Speaker 1: to be woke and to practice wokeness in our lives
Speaker 1: as we head into the summer, Get out there if
Speaker 1: it's safe where you are, feel the music and let
Speaker 1: it awaken something in you. Power to the people and
Speaker 1: to all the people. Power. Get woke and stay woke
Speaker 1: as fuck.