1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,319 Speaker 1: This is Laura, and this is episode thirty seven. We're 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: going to be talking today with Catherine Reynolds Lewis, who 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: is the author of a brand new book called The 13 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: Good News about bad Behavior, about children and disciplines. We're 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: looking forward to that. We're also looking forward to it 15 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: because Catherine has been my long term accountability partner. She 16 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: and I began checking in with each other weekly about 17 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: five years ago that we both had long term speculative 18 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: career projects we wanted to take on. She and I 19 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: had gotten to know each other through sort of journalism circles, 20 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: and I had read something she wrote for Fortune magazine 21 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: about career coaches, and I emailed her saying, have you 22 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: ever hired a career coach? How did it work out? 23 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:17,559 Speaker 1: She said, you know what, I don't need a coach. 24 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: I just need somebody to make sure I do the 25 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: stuff I'm supposed to be doing that I know I 26 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: should be doing. So she and I decided to do 27 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: that for each other. We'd be on checking in with 28 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: each other weekly and so it's been really fun to 29 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: watch her career journey and watch her finally bring this project, 30 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: which started just as an idea to fruition. So we're 31 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: looking forward to that in the body. That'll be the 32 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: serious part of this episode. But we are going to 33 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: start with total frivolity here because we are going to 34 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: talk about hair. So Sarah, tell me about your hair. 35 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: Hair yeah, And our discussion about this sparked the idea 36 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: that we are going to in the future do an 37 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: entire superficial things episode, So that'll be fun. But hair, yeah. 38 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: So I've been getting my Hairjapanese straightened since two thousand 39 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: and seven, and I do not hope to take Japanese. Well, 40 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: the process did get developed in Japan. You know, people 41 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: think of people from Japan with very very straight, silky hair. 42 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: But actually they don't all have that kind of hair. 43 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: So some enterprising Japanese person, probably from the Bland. There's 44 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: two brands that do it. I think it's Licio and 45 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: I don't know the other one, but Lisio is the 46 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: one I use. They developed this method. It uses similar 47 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: chemicals to a perm, so this is different from the 48 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: Brazilian or keratin that's popular. My hesitance on the caraten 49 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: is a it's not necessarily as long lasting and be 50 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: the preparations. Some of them are thought to either form 51 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: or contain from aldehyde, whereas the Japanese straightening process uses 52 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: I think ammonium thiog whatever. That famous compound was in 53 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: legally blonde, but it's a PERM compound and not a 54 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: not something new. It's been used for years and years 55 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: and years, but they just kind of change them so 56 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: that you it takes forever. You apply this stuff and 57 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: then you have to iron the hair straight, then you 58 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: have to wash it all out, then you apply some 59 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: other stuff to neutralize it. Then you wash that out, 60 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: and then it takes for like five hours. But when 61 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: you're done, your hair is frizz free until it grows 62 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: out and it's straight. Some people don't like how straight 63 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: it is. Like, if you want body, this is you 64 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: have to either add it back or you know, you 65 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: have to curl it or something. I don't really care 66 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: about body. I just want smooth, straight hair that I 67 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: can wear down without it being a mess and with 68 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,119 Speaker 1: basically no maintenance. So, because what would your hair look 69 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: like if you didn't it, I mean, do you have 70 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: curly sleeper? No? I don't. Actually it's like kind of wavy, 71 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: but it's super frizzy and it's just you know, I 72 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: had to let it grow out because I don't do 73 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: this process pregnant. You know, there's no clear guidelines on 74 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: doing it or not doing it, but I iron the 75 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: side of not doing it while pregnant, and so I 76 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: have to deal with my normal hair because I think 77 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: I went like thirteen months between treatments and there's a 78 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: lot of grow out within that time. And it's just 79 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: you know, when I put it in a ponytail, I 80 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: have like a halo of hair everywhere, and when I 81 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: wear it down, it's just like in my like puffy. 82 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: So I just love what this does to my hair. 83 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: It makes it so low maintenance. Yeah, you know, I 84 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: don't have to. I just literally like can let it 85 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: dry wet, and it just looks straight and smooth and acceptable. 86 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it looks like amazing every day, 87 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: but it looks very polished and reasonable with literally zero 88 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: effort except for that long block of time I have 89 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: to spend doing it. Yeah, how often which literally takes 90 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: five hours? Though, so I I, how often would you 91 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: do it? Dump? Oh? If when not pregnant, usually every 92 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: seven or eight months is fine. I mean, if you 93 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: have super curly hair, you need it more often, but 94 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: for me, I can get away with about seven or 95 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: eight months. Okay. I find this fascinating because Sarah's got 96 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: her wavy hair that she's trying to make straight, and 97 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: I have incredibly straight hair that I'm trying to make 98 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: wavy all the time. So you weren't going for frizzy. 99 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: I mean, if I had one home perm back in 100 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: the days of the herm, which it looked just about 101 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: as you can imagine the home perm luked. But you know, 102 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: I curl my hair pretty much every time I leave 103 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: the house, like I you know, on days where I'm 104 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: going somewhere, I will use my curling iron and just 105 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: do a couple of waves around my face to give 106 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: my hair a little bit of body, because otherwise do 107 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: you have to do you have to dry your hair 108 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: every day too. Well, if I curl it, then I 109 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: don't have to write. I can just let it, you know, 110 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: because usually I'm not leaving anywhere right at the beginning 111 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: of the day. If I am, then I do have 112 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: to dry. I dry my hair and then curl it, 113 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: just because I can't curl wet hair right devvy More, 114 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: it's more the hair neating to be dry in order 115 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: to curl it aspect of it. But yeah, I began 116 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: doing that, I think in high school, Like I started 117 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: curling just to give it a little bit of body. 118 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: And so now you know, whenever you see a photo 119 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: of me, it's got a few waves around my face 120 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: and that's what that is. I'm not sure how I 121 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: would do that without sort of daily doing the curling. Yeah, 122 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: it would be hard. Hard. There's not a jet. But 123 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like it takes too long. At least 124 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: on the days you can let an air dry and 125 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: then just stick an iron. And yeah, I mean because 126 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: I don't have to leave the house usually at a 127 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: certain point, So you know, it's not not trying to 128 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: compress the morning into whatever. I may have an appointment, 129 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: say at eleven o'clock somewhere, so if I'm up at 130 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: six in shower, like, the hair would have dried before 131 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: then before I get around to actually doing it before 132 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: going anywhere. But yeah, no. And I also I color 133 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: my hair, which is probably obvious given the fact that 134 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: it's blonde and all the photos unless you're like, yeah, 135 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: that's true, most adults are not. But it looks natural. 136 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: It looks right on you. It looks like I did. 137 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: It's the funny part about it, right, Like it's the 138 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: same shade as my three year old's hair, which is 139 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: that's why it works. Yeah, people should like save whatever. 140 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: I have not had to color my hair yet. I 141 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: like have some like you know, I can find them 142 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: gray hairs, and I'm just going to be sad when 143 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: they become enough where I feel compelled to actually add 144 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: color because it's going to be very hair to match 145 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: the color. Plus that's more time and money and I'm 146 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: just not ready to go down that road. Well, so 147 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: I do it myself. This is the crazy aspect of it, 148 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: is I actually color my own hair. Wow, also been 149 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: doing that since high school. My technique has gotten a 150 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: lot better because here's the thing, like I've done it 151 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: so many times, like I have to do it every 152 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: you know, eight weeks, six to eight weeks. So if 153 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: you think of doing it five six times, well six 154 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: seven times a year, you're good time. Kind of like 155 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: going through beauty school there, I mean in terms of having, 156 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: oh my goodness, what you have to what do you use? 157 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: So it's lureal preference nine and a half A. The 158 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: A stands for ash blonde. No, this is the ash 159 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: coloring versus there's there's different tones and this is a 160 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: key thing with hair color. And anyone who'd work at 161 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: a salon would know this. And so when I talk 162 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: about it with the salon people, they're always like, yeah, 163 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: so it's the the ash coloring versus you know, whatever 164 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: the other one is, which is not me. So I 165 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: know the ash but it's nine and a half a 166 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: light ash blonde, and you know, just it saves a 167 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: lot of money because it's ten bucks for the drugs. 168 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: Oh a lot, like a lot lot. Doing it seven 169 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: times a year, that's seventy bucks. I would that would 170 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: blow through that one. I'm impressed that you can get 171 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: such a natural looking one at home, because I always 172 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: thought that, like you could use kind of darker overdyes 173 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: at home. But anyway, well, I mean we show like 174 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: a beauty podcast. Now this may change because the various 175 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: horrors of being close to forty. I was looking at 176 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: what was growing in as I was examining our roots 177 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: the other day, and there may be a few gray strands, 178 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: strands that did not look brown on the growing in, 179 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: so that seems like it would be easier to die blonde. 180 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 1: I yes, well, yes, that's true, as they tend to 181 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: get blonder. So we shall see how that develops. I 182 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: may need to throw in the towel and get somebody 183 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: who's a professional to do it, but for now I 184 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: am cheap and proud, all right. So this brings us. 185 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: Now that we're done with our friquality, we're going to 186 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: go to our more portion and talk to Catherine. So 187 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: we are delighted to welcome to the program today, Katherine 188 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: Reynolds Lewis. Katherine is a journalist and mom and also 189 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: the author of a brand new book called The Good 190 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: News About Bad Behavior. So Catherine, welcome to the program. 191 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. 192 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: Catherine was telling us that she listens to best of 193 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: both worlds. Yes, I have been fascinated with work life 194 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: balance and how we fit it all in for like 195 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: at least fifteen years, which is the age of my firstborn. 196 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: And I listen to every Tuesday morning while I'm walking 197 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: my dog, so he gets an extra long walk that morning, 198 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: right dependent if Sarah and I go on for a 199 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: long time, he's getting quite an exercise, I guess. Yeah. 200 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: So Catherine, tell us a little bit about yourself and 201 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: how you wound up becoming a discipline excerpt. So my name, 202 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: as you said, is Katherine Reynolds Lewis. And I have 203 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: a new book book called The Good News about bad behavior, 204 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: why kids are less disciplined than ever and what to 205 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: do about it. And I'm a longtime journalist. I had 206 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: started out in business journalism, and in two thousand and 207 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: eight my bureau clothes, I was a national correspondent for 208 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: new House News Service, writing about money and work. And 209 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: at that point I had the choice between going back 210 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: into a very phrenetic newsroom as the lowest person on 211 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: the wrong and launching my own freelance writing practice, and 212 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: I had built up a couple of side hustle gigs, 213 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: so I figured I would give it a year and 214 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: see how it went, and I found I really loved 215 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: being independent, so I kept writing about workplace issues, careers, business, 216 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: some family type stories. And then I realized, since I 217 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: was on my own, I could just pursue whatever beat 218 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: I wanted, so I reassigned myself to the parenting and 219 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:05,479 Speaker 1: education beat, and in twenty eleven really got interested in discipline. 220 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: My own children were, coincidentally at that time six and 221 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: nine or six and eight, so those kinds of issues 222 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: were pretty front and center for me. And by the way, 223 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm based in the Washington, DC area and have kids 224 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: who are now twenty five, fifth, fourteen, and eleven, and 225 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: the twenty five year old is off launched fully independent. Yay. Yeah, 226 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: it's wonderful. There's light at the end of the tunnel. 227 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: There's light at the end of the tune. I know 228 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: we talk about that a lot here. And you had 229 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: wanted to write a book for a while, though, but 230 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: you didn't know it was going to be this book 231 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: per se. Right. I went independent partly for the work 232 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: flexibility benefits, partly because journalism is such a tough industry 233 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: right now that I figured it was better to have 234 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: money coming in from multiple sources than just one employer. 235 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: And also because I thought, oh, I can finally pursue this, 236 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: you know, dream that I've had since I was twelve, 237 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: to write a book. And Laura, you and I have 238 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: really helped each other. You've helped me probably more than 239 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 1: I've helped you. You've helped me too, And so I 240 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: really wanted to write a book. And so I have 241 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: this writing group that I'm part of, and you know, 242 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: every year I would sort of say, this year, my 243 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: goal is to get started on that book, and I 244 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: just year after year just felt shamed that I hadn't 245 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: done anything until you and I started checking in with 246 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: these small incremental steps that we were going to take. 247 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: And my memory is that over the course of a 248 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: few months, I had a goal of spending two hours 249 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: a week on reporting that would lead to the book, 250 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: and you had a goal of writing two thousand words 251 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: of fiction. I think something like that. Yeah, I love that, 252 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: And you had written pretty much an entire novel the 253 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: time it took me to write the magazine pitch that 254 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: was like nine This was this was a structural problem 255 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: with with Catherine's schedule to back up here, because I, yeah, 256 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: really need we need our classic best of both worlds 257 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: kind of walk through how you organize yourself and maybe 258 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: what wasn't working before would be fascinating, right. So I 259 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: had organized myself very well for the freelance writing, where 260 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: I have a firm assignment and a deadline and I 261 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: have money coming in, and that was working very well. 262 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: I just kind of blocked out time in my schedule 263 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: and at the time my kids were both still in 264 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: One of them was in daycare, so the other one 265 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: was in school, so I really had the full day, 266 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: you know, seven or eight hours to work. But it 267 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: was this you know, long term career development piece that 268 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: I wasn't making a priority, and I have put it 269 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: at the end of my schedule Friday afternoon, which is 270 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: usually a quiet time, but I didn't realize that it's 271 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: also the time when everything has to get wrapped up 272 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: and I kind of have low energy. So Laura say, 273 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: justin moving it to Monday morning, which turned out to 274 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: be the perfect solution because my husband, Brian works from 275 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: home on Mondays, so he drops off the kids. He 276 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: really manages the whole morning, so I could just sit 277 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: down as soon as I woke up do two hours 278 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: of work on that book. Well at the time it 279 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: was a magazine proposal, and then still have pretty much 280 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: a full workday to get my paying work done. Yeah. 281 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: So Catherine started doing this on Monday morning, working on 282 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: her magazine pitch for this discipline story. Send it into 283 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: mother Jones. Mother Jones took it. You wrote a story. 284 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: What happened with that story? Oh? It went completely viral. 285 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: It really amazed me, and it actually my editors at 286 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: mother Jones were kind of amazed too, because it ended 287 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: up being the most read story the magazine has ever published, 288 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: and that is amazing. And it ran under the headline 289 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: in the magazine of the end of Punishment, and online 290 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: it ran as what if everything you knew about discipline 291 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: was wrong? A total clickbait right there. Nice. So I 292 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: have to thank them for packaging it and making it 293 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: so appealing to click because today that's had nearly six 294 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: million page views and it still keeps getting more. So 295 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: that led me to an amazing literary agent, and he 296 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: and I worked on a book proposal. I had written 297 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: a book proposal, but it turned out that I had 298 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: written a unsellable book proposal, so he helped me with 299 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: making it more broad and appealing to a wider audience, 300 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: and then we took it to publishers and had multiple 301 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: bids and sold it last summer. Yeah, and so here 302 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: it is. It's a long process, if anyone's wondering about 303 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: the whole book publishing process takes a long time from 304 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: idea showing there's a market for the idea, writing proposals, 305 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: getting publishers to beIN on it, getting the book out, 306 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, many many years, right, It's like it's about 307 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: five years now, right, since we started checking in. Yeah, yeah, 308 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: that's right. And I think it's one of those things, 309 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: sort of like parenting, where if you knew how hard 310 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: it is, you might not go into it, but by 311 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: the time, by the time you realize the commitment you've made, 312 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: you're already in love with the child or the book idea, 313 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: and you just persevere. Yeah, so tell us a little 314 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: bit about the book. I mean, why is it that 315 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: everything we know about discipline is wrong? Well, I got 316 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: into the book project because of my own curiosity and 317 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: challenges with not only my own children, but more so 318 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: just everyone around me. I was a volunteer at the school, 319 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: I was a Girl Scout leader. I coached my kids odesty, 320 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: the my team, and in every one of those context, 321 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: I saw kids who weren't cooperating with adults the way 322 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: that I had cooperated when I was little. And really, 323 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: most of the kids in my elementary and middle school, 324 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: if an adult, even if they didn't know the adult, 325 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: gave them some instruction, they would comply, and they might 326 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: they might not actually follow through, but they'd at least 327 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: pretend to be respectful. And I wasn't seeing that happen. 328 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: So I just wanted to understand this just to make 329 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: my own life more manageable, to make my home life 330 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: better and these kids groups that I was leading more 331 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: productive and cooperative. And it led me through this fascinating, 332 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: huge pile of research that really shows not only have 333 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: kids changed, but there's some very well founded, research backed 334 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: methods for getting them to cooperate that aren't widely known. 335 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: So the part about why kids have changed, there's really 336 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: striking research that shows that anxiety, depression, substance addictions, and 337 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: behavioral problems have gotten so big that one in two 338 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: children will have one of those issues by the time 339 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: they're eighteen, which that part absolutely floored me. I mean, 340 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,479 Speaker 1: thinking about that and my three young kids, it's like, Okay, well, 341 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: the odds are against us from the start. I also 342 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: was can you talk a little bit more about how 343 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 1: they've changed with respect to mental illness, but also just 344 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: even without those variables, because I thought that was one 345 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: of the most striking parts of your book, and how 346 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: you share the vignettes that really illustrated that. Right. It's 347 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: the every educator that I spoke to who had been 348 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: teaching for more than ten years said, yeah, there's just 349 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: something different about kids now. They come into kindergarten and 350 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: they can't keep their hands to themselves, they need a 351 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: personal invitation to put their pencil down, and it's just 352 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: different than it used to be. So there's three factors 353 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: that have changed in the last twenty or thirty years, 354 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: and we can't prove that any of them are the cause, 355 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: because you can't randomly assign kids to grow up in 356 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: a different time. But there's really powerful evidence that it's 357 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: in the book that it's the decline in play, both 358 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: outdoor play and unstructured play or less supervised play, the 359 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: growth of media that not just so media, but just 360 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: technology in general, and all of these things that turn 361 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: our focus outwards and encourage children to look externally for 362 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: validation and for a source of you know, who do 363 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: I want to be? And then the lack of connection 364 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: that we have just because of our busy lives and 365 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: our far phone flung families and communities that are not 366 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: as neighborhood centric or not as physically together as they 367 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: used to be. And those three things are changing for 368 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: kids and for us as well as adults. I mean, 369 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: parents now actually spend more time with their children than 370 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: in previous times in history, and yet we feel often 371 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: so disconnected and phrenetic and stressed, and so sometimes we 372 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: don't feel that we're present or we feel that we're 373 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: not doing enough when we're taking on a bigger burden 374 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: than get parents and previous generations. Was that addressing the 375 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: question that you wanted me to answer. Yeah, Well it's 376 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: interesting Catherine though, because I mean, and so I mean, 377 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: there are these changes with you know, as you said, 378 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: screens and connection and sort of independent play and stuff 379 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: like that, but in terms of sort of the biggest 380 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: misbehavior with kids like that, I mean, so adolescent crime 381 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: for instance, is down. So how does that play into that. Well, 382 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: there's some really interesting evidence, and I would point to 383 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: Gene Tweeniet in San Diego that it's almost as if 384 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: children are growing up slower now, and so some of 385 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 1: the behaviors that kids got into in their teens, like 386 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: early sexual activity, crime, you know, really getting into drugs 387 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: and alcohol, they're delaying, and so children have sort of 388 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: a prolonged childhood in terms of their sphere of influence, 389 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: even just their independence Physically, children are much more likely 390 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: now and tweens and teens are much more likely to 391 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: just be home, you know, within sight of their parents, 392 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: and not as engaged in the kinds of crime we're 393 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: sexual acting out or risk taking that they used to, 394 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: and yet they're doing things often through their cell phones 395 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: or even just through that isolation that turn a lot 396 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: of those problems inwards. So that's why we're seeing such 397 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: an increase in anxiety and depression and self harm and 398 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: suicidality because children don't have the freedom, or they don't 399 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: feel a drive to go out and ride their bike 400 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: around the neighborhood, and instead they may be sort of 401 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: on their iPad looking at Instagram or feeling bad about themselves, 402 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: and that turns some of those so instead of feeling 403 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: powerful and having this scope of freedom, they're more inclined 404 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: to just turn those things inward. So what is it 405 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: that we get wrong about disciplining them? Because the title 406 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: on the Mother Jones story is the end of punishment, 407 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: and obviously a lot of what we think about a 408 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: child dispondes these, you know, various punishments of various things 409 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: for acting out, So what's wrong with that mindset? The 410 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: basic problem is is that we need children to learn 411 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: to self regulate, and there's so much evidence that children 412 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: no longer can manage their thoughts, behavior and emotions the 413 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: way that they could in past generations. And by the way, 414 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: that's what I was referencing is when you talked about 415 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: how they were timing kids to see how long they 416 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 1: could sist still and the kids of today being markedly 417 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: different from the kids of the seventies, I think it was, 418 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, that was absolutely striking. So I guess yeah, 419 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: to me, that sold me on, Okay, we need a 420 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: solution to this, and that's kind of where the rest 421 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: of your methods come from. So okay, keep going. But 422 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: I just wanted to mention thank you, And that was 423 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: what actually got me interested in what they called the 424 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: century experiment in Russia, where the raw number of seconds 425 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: that a child can stand still when told to do 426 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: so by an adult has declined dramatically. It's about a 427 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: quarter of what it was fifty years ago. So the 428 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: basic paradox that we face as parents and educators and 429 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: anyone who cares about children is that in order for 430 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: children to learn self control, we cannot be controlling them 431 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: all the time. So in order for them to learn 432 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: to manage their emotions, learn to manage their behavior, they 433 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: need to have this measure of freedom to make their 434 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: own choices and to make their mistakes and learn from them. 435 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: And as parents, and I know because I do this myself, 436 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: we want them to get it right so often and 437 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: we're on top of them trying to help them make 438 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: those right choices that they lose that independence. And it 439 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: can be as simple as this freedom to kind of 440 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: run outside and play, play with a friend, maybe get 441 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: in a fight and come back and deal with that 442 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: themselves instead of us jumping in to try to help 443 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: them manage it. And on the radical side, talk about 444 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: the sort of cleansing weak approach, because this was also 445 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: quite shocking to me, and I don't think I'm quite 446 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: ready for it, especially given my kids' ages. And I'd 447 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: love you to comment on how old your kids have 448 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: to be for that to work. But tell our listeners 449 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: about that, because yeah. So, in my quest to find out, 450 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: you know, why kids don't what we want anymore and 451 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: what can be done about it, I went to Vermont 452 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: to Vicky Huffle, who's an author and parent educator there 453 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: who wrote a book called Duct Tape Parenting, and she 454 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: teaches the parents in her classes, whom I followed a 455 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: few families. She teaches them do nothing, say nothing weak, 456 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: where you do not correct, direct, reprimand punish, reward, bribe, 457 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: or otherwise intervene with your kid's actions, and instead you 458 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: can only the only tools you can use are noticing 459 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: what they're doing, giving information, encouraging, and connecting with them. 460 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: So you're sort of letting everything happen and follow as 461 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: it will. And during that week you take note of, Okay, 462 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 1: what can my children do independently? From now on? The 463 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: things that they can do and will do are their domain, 464 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: and that's really our role as parents is to constantly 465 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: put you putting more in our children's sphere of influence 466 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: and less in ours. By the time they're eighteen, they 467 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: can launch. You also during that week, note what they 468 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 1: can do but are not willing to do, so, for instance, 469 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: tie their shoes or paying their backpack up, or things 470 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: that they clearly can do but they are not yet 471 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: doing as a habit. And then the third category is 472 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: things they can't do and they won't do, and so 473 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: you sort of just systematically try to move things from 474 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: that you can do and won't into the can do 475 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: and will category, or the can't do category into the 476 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: will do category. So you're sort of constantly trying to 477 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: increase your children's independence, their capability, and really you can 478 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: start super young. I visited one family that had four 479 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: year old twins and a seven year old boy. Twin 480 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: girls and a boy, and they were, i mean, starting 481 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: fires in the fireplace, They were folding laundry, they were 482 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: packing their own lunches, and so many of these things 483 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: that we do because it's faster and we all have 484 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: busy lives, or we do because we want them to 485 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: have this balanced, beautiful lunch for their lunch box. They 486 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: could do and that would give them not only more 487 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: control and that sense of autonomy that is so important 488 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: for well being, but it would also take one more 489 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: thing off of our shoulders, which I think is something 490 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: especially important to your listeners, that it's one less task 491 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: on our to do list if our child's doing it themselves. 492 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: But what about issues of safety though, because I think 493 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: that some of the discipline stems from concerns about safety. 494 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned the four year old starting a fire. 495 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: I mean I have a every year old who would 496 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: leap into the fire if not restrained. At some points, 497 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: I mean there are certain where does the safety factor 498 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: come into this? Yes, absolutely, when there is a case 499 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: of health or safety, the parent can just act unilaterally. 500 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: But you try to make that the exception rather than 501 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: the rule. And it really depends so much on your 502 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: own child. I mean, truly, this family that I visited 503 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: in Vermont, the things that they were doing, my kids 504 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: couldn't have done at that age because they were just 505 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: different kids. So you really have to also know your 506 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: own children and be realistic about what will work for 507 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 1: you and your life and your family. But as much 508 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: as possible, just think about it from that perspective that 509 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: you try. Your goal is not for everything to go perfectly, 510 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: but to give them the chance to try new things, 511 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: to take on more independence, and to have your home 512 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: be that learning lab for mistakes where it's okay if 513 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: they don't get it perfectly right or they make a mess. 514 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: And while also yes, health and safety, so things like 515 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: toothbrushing is something that kids are not going to see 516 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: the immediate consequence of neglecting their teeth, So that's something 517 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: where often parents have to find a way to be 518 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: more interventional, or running out into the street, you know, 519 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 1: in front of a car you can grab your kid 520 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: and and pull them back. You can think of it 521 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: in terms of things where you need to sort of 522 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: create the consequences. So if it's teeth brushing, you can 523 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: quietly say like, oh, you know, if we don't brush 524 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: our teeth by this time, just so you know, we 525 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: won't have time to do this, and then I mean 526 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: you kind of use that example versus something like, oh, 527 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 1: well your teeth will just rot. You know, kids are 528 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 1: not going to be ready for that long term consequence. 529 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,479 Speaker 1: But you can use mutually agreed upon other consequences as 530 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: kind of a placeholder exactly, I know, truly we as 531 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: parents are our kids' prefrontal cortex. We are using, we 532 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: are creating the executive function until they're ready to take over. 533 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: And we all know that kids. I believe many people 534 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: know that kids executive function their ability to plan and 535 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: problem solve and make smart choices with the consequences in mind, 536 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: It does not develop fully until really their twenties. So 537 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: we're we're in charge of that, you know, and try 538 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: to give it up little by little as they grow. 539 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: You know. We really cool if we could study these 540 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: methods and see if there's actually a neurological correlate to 541 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: earlier development of that of that axis, I mean with 542 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: like functional yes, And that's I think that's the next 543 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: that's the next wave of science that I start talking 544 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: about my book, where the scientists have sort of figured 545 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: out what happens in kids' brains when they're disciplined or 546 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: when they're acting out, and now they're trying to really 547 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: look at what type of parenting influences those neural connections 548 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: in a positive way. So what happens after the week 549 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: of no nagging? I mean, what I do just want 550 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: to introduce, like, you know, after you take food allergy 551 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: and stuff out you introduced slowly right, well, then you 552 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: really I think that the class after the class came back, 553 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: the class of Vickiy Huffle's parenting class that I observed, 554 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: they came back and they had been just this revelation 555 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: of all these things their children were capable of that 556 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: they really hadn't believed. So I think that week is 557 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: like a cleanse. You know, you you have a new 558 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: understanding of yourself and your children, and that lets you 559 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: by agreement with you know, depending on your children's ages, 560 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: you'll as a parent have more or less say in 561 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: that agreement. So if you're very young child children, you 562 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: may give them two choices. If you have tweens, you 563 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: may leave it open for discussion. But you talk about 564 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: what are the routines that our family needs, and what 565 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: are what are the things that you need support with, 566 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: and what are the things that you can do independently, 567 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: and then just let them do all the things that 568 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: they have shown they can do and will do, and 569 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: that is no longer ever your job. The other parenting 570 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: method I looked at was the Parent Encouragement program here 571 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: in the DC area, and they say that anytime you 572 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: do for a child, what they can do for themselves. 573 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: You are robbing them of the opportunity to grow and 574 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: be independent, and that's something that I hold very truth. Yeah, so, Catherine, 575 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: I mean that's that's certainly when we're talking about, you know, 576 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: things we can do with children. Maybe you know, discipline 577 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: issues that stem from like not putting your shoes on 578 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: or whatever you're going out the door in the morning, 579 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: But what about stuff like fighting with siblings and the 580 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: discipline issues that stem out of you know, children actually 581 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: you know, hurting each other or being really mean to 582 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: each other in the household. Do you know what comes 583 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: from that? That is one of the hardest issues because 584 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: as a parent, you just want your kids to get 585 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: along and to be each other as champions, and it's 586 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: really painful to watch them fight. And I have that 587 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: experience myself all the time. So we teach I'm a 588 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: certified parent educator with the Parent Encouragement Program, and we 589 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: teach that children as much as possible, you want to 590 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: let them work it out themselves. So think of them 591 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: as sort of little bear cubs or puppy dogs that 592 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: for them, a lot of times, the play is also 593 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: the fighting is also play. So you want to first 594 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: look at with a very neutral try to take your 595 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,239 Speaker 1: own emotion out of it and really say are they 596 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: fighting because it's fun or because they're bored, or is 597 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: there really an issue that's a conflict. So if they're 598 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: just fighting to pass the time, which often children do, 599 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: you can leave or put in earbuds so you don't 600 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: have to hear it. You can if they're fighting over 601 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: something that's a true conflict, you can comment on it, 602 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: like I see one child, one toy and two children. 603 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: That's a tough problem, and that helps them to frame 604 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: it and work it out. And then the third step 605 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: is if you really need to intervene, you can take 606 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: with a toy away and say it looks like this 607 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: toy's causing a problem. It's going to go into time out. 608 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: So you're not taking either child's side. You're not trying 609 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: to adjudicate, because once you come in and try to 610 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: be the judge, then you just worsen the conflict because 611 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: they both want to fleed their case with you. But 612 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: as much as possible, be neutral, help the children frame 613 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: the issue, and then you can always speak separately to 614 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: the children about like what does that fight like for you? 615 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: And what do you think you might do in the future. 616 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: And this is the kind of coaching that I believe 617 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: parents nowadays just need to do more of than certainly 618 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: my parents did, because children need more of that help 619 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: sorting through their own feelings and their choices about their 620 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: interactions and siblings are the perfect place to really learn 621 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: how to get along with another human being when you 622 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: have conflicting goals. You mentioned a time out for the toy. 623 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: Let's discuss timeouts in general. So timeouts are super controversial 624 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: and I don't recommend them, but I also do recommend 625 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: that you talk to your kids at a time that 626 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: is not a heated moment, so they're not in the 627 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: middle of a meltdown or a conflict, and ask them 628 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: what helps them when they're having a tough time, and 629 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: they may come up with time alone is helpful, or 630 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: time in my room by myself helps me calm down. 631 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: And so that's the case where it's a positive timeout 632 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: that they've chosen. So if your child's having a meltdown 633 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: or having a crisis and you're able to reach them 634 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: that they can actually hear you, because often they can't. 635 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: But if you're able to sort of put a hand 636 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: on their shoulder, put a hand on their arm and 637 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: they don't fling it off. You can say to them, 638 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: which of the strategies that we brainstorm would help you 639 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: right now? Do you want to hug? Do you want 640 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: to go to your room? You know what would help you? 641 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,959 Speaker 1: If none of that works, yes, of course you can 642 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: always sort of give your kid a big bear hug 643 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: and say something like I love you too much to 644 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: let you hurt yourself or hurt someone else. And that 645 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: sort of pressure and hug from a parent can can 646 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: serve the same purpose as a time out of helping 647 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: the kids self regulate. In my book, I talk about, 648 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: as you know, that touch and empathy are really powerful 649 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: in helping children to gain control of their emotions and 650 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: their behavior, so that parental connection is really vital. I will, 651 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: for one, say that timeouts do not seem to be 652 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: particularly effective with my children and usually lead to an 653 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: escalation about being in the time out itself. So I 654 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: was sort of happy to see your stance on that, 655 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: and I have tried it a little bit, you know, 656 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: sort of more just pausing and giving them space to 657 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: deal with being bad, and also using the phrase work 658 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: it out when they're fighting and I will say it 659 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: is not perfect. It is completely work in progress, but 660 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: it does seem to work better. And the more authoritarian 661 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: model that you talk about in your book of Okay, 662 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: that was bad, you get a time out, but you 663 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: know what you talked about this too. You do open 664 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: yourself up to judgment from others when things occur in 665 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: a public place and you're not maybe doing people may 666 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: expect you to be more authoritarian in certain situations when 667 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,959 Speaker 1: maybe you know that it would backfire, but you also 668 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: feel judged from taking a more appearingly hands off position. 669 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: How do you handle that? Well, it's definitely been a journey. 670 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: I mean I had a whole process of learning to 671 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: live with my child going to school well tangled hair 672 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: because I had decided that was not a fight that 673 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: I was going to have. And for me, what has 674 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: helped is to really see this as a crisis. Our 675 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: children are in crisis. There is a self regulation crisis 676 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: across the country, and my child's independence, mental health and 677 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: well being is more important than what those other parents 678 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: think of me. And it's not easy and I definitely 679 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: slip up, and certainly I want everyone to understand that 680 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: the you know, there's a lot of imperfection in the book. 681 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: I share a lot of my own parenting fails, and 682 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: if something's working for you, I would not say, oh, 683 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: you must stop doing timeouts or whatever, but just to 684 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: think of it in the very long term that this 685 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: moment of feeling judged and criticized silently by other parents 686 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: is not going to matter in ten years. But your 687 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: child handling that problem themselves, your relationship with your child, 688 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: that is what's truly at stake, and that's the most 689 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: important priority. That's awesome. I find that empowering. I'm going 690 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: to keep that in my head. Right. Yeah, I had 691 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: a little bin yet that. I mean my kids at 692 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: the end of swim class. I sort of asked them 693 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: to come to me, and instead they both jumped in 694 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: to the deep end where there's a climbing wall and 695 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: they can swim, like there was no imminent danger. But 696 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: my thought was, oh, my god, Like, I look like 697 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: such a bad mom because they're really not allowed to 698 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: do that. They're breaking the pool rules. I should have 699 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: calmly walked over and been like, you're breaking the rules, 700 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: You're going to get in trouble with the pool. Instead 701 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: I was like screaming at them, And then as I 702 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: read your book in retrospect, it really was the authoritarian 703 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: versus authoritative. My method didn't work, and it really did 704 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: come from a place of oh my god, what is 705 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: the pool people going to think? Like, it wasn't about 706 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,919 Speaker 1: you know, whether the kids were going to be safe. 707 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: I knew they were fine, So it really I think 708 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: that's it is a journey, and I'm just sharing that. 709 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, because I'm sure others have been through a 710 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: similar thing, but you really have to think, like about 711 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: your well being. If your kids are okay, then letting 712 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: them work through a situation can may make everybody for 713 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: adult regulation here because again a lot of the stuff 714 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: comes out oh yeah, yeah, not that I would need that, 715 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: but you're very angry because like your child has just 716 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: willfully emptied the soft soap all over the house and 717 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: you ask why, and the child says, I wanted to 718 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: make a mess. That's just an example. That's never actually 719 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: tell me, yes, I honestly example. Well, so, first of all, 720 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: I think one of the messages I hope comes through 721 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: in the book is that we parents should embrace our 722 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: own imperfection. So if you lose it in that moment, 723 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: it's okay, and you it's actually a great opportunity for 724 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: you then to go to the child and say, I'm 725 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: really sorry I lost it over this officer because it 726 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: was something that I didn't want. But it's never a 727 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: good reason to yell, and they're you're modeling to the 728 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: child how do you recover from losing it and making 729 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: a mistake, And you're also showing them how you calm down. 730 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: But suppose you don't want to get to that state 731 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: where you lose it. There's so many great strategies. Even 732 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: something as simple as taking three deep breaths gives you 733 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: a moment to think. It helps your body physiologically to 734 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: self regulate, and then you can respond more easily. You 735 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: can also do what I call the mumble and walk 736 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: away technique. If you are standing there and you're like, okay, 737 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: I know I'm not supposed to yell, but nothing else 738 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: is coming into my head right now, you can pretend 739 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: you heard something from the other room, or like I 740 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: forgot something on the stove, and just say oh and 741 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: walk away, And that can give you in the other 742 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: room a moment to pull yourself together and decide, Okay, 743 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 1: how am I going to handle the situation. And then 744 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: the other thing I would definitely say is as much 745 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: as possible, try to surround yourself with supportive, like minded 746 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: parents who are going to judge you, who will accept 747 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: that your children have messy hair and forget their you know, 748 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: there's sweatshirts at the school, and try to not connect 749 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: with the people who are so perfect and tightly controlled 750 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: that are just going to make you feel bad about yourself. Well, 751 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: And I think something to consider with that too is 752 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: that children are all so different, and some kids are 753 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: just easier to discipline than others. There are absolutely, you know, 754 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: issues of you know, there are people who's and say like, 755 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: maybe more often little girls, for instance, are just attentive 756 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: in school. That's just they're more program that way or whatever. 757 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: And then there's little boys who are acting up. And 758 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: it can be little girls too. But I'm just experiencing 759 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: this from the perspective of having three small boys that 760 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: you know that you have to keep in mind, you know, 761 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: from the perspective of not judging yourself or judging other parents, 762 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: that it may be that this parent is doing the 763 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: best they can with a child who is more mischievous, 764 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: who is more rebellious, who is more whatever it is, 765 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: and that's that's part of being gentle on ourselves and 766 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: others as well. Absolutely, I love the way you put that. Yeah, 767 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: well we Sarah, did you have anything else you wanted 768 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: to ask? No, But I really, I'm sincerely just as 769 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: people listen to this, if this resonates with them, I 770 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: highly recommend checking out Catherine's book because I really did 771 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: find it really thought provoking. In fact, I may use 772 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: it for our parents, which we've started, because even if 773 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: you don't use everything in it, there's just a lot 774 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: of food for thought there and a lot of methods 775 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: that are certainly worth the good news about bad behavior. 776 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: We're releasing this episode, I believe April seventeen, which is 777 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 1: the book is now on sale. Yeah, so you can 778 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 1: go check that out and learn about how to help 779 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,839 Speaker 1: children learn to discipline themselves. So, Catherine, we end each 780 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,359 Speaker 1: episode with our love of the week, So something that's 781 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: making our life better, more fun easier each week. So Sarah, 782 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 1: you want to go ahead and start and we'll ask 783 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: you last, Catherine, so you can you know? Sure? So 784 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: I've experimented with various you know, one of the things 785 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: we talk about fairly frequently. Is exercise just sort of 786 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: one of those foundational things and being able to fit 787 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: it in in a convenient and efficient fashion is very 788 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: important to many of us with families and jobs. So 789 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: I've been into kind of efficient online options. I've done 790 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: bar three. I used the dia DM method for a 791 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,280 Speaker 1: little bit after having Genevieve my third, but I actually 792 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: switched to Mama Strong, which was recommended by several of 793 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: my readers. It is these fifteen minute workouts. It's two 794 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: dollars a month, so low commitment there, and they're great. 795 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: They're not super professionally recorded, but the instructor is super enthusiastic. 796 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 1: I'm sore from my workout yesterday. They're fifteen minutes long. 797 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: I'm finding now that really these sort of independent women 798 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: starting their own little another one. For example, they're something 799 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 1: called Yoga with Adrian. They're not big corporate machines, but 800 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: they get the job done. They're very inexpensive. Yeah, so 801 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: Mama Strong and now Yoga with Adrian. And if you 802 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 1: have a favorite online yoga that you use, I'm looking 803 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: for more suggestions and those over tis Sarah. You can 804 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 1: comment on her blog, you can email us Instagram, any 805 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: of that. We're looking for good online yoga resources, all right, 806 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: So my love of the week is my keyboard. I 807 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: have this Yamaha keyboard that I actually bought many years 808 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 1: ago my first job out of college. I was a 809 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: year long intern at USA Today and one of my 810 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: first checks I earned from writing columns for them. I 811 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: put the money into buying this keyboard because I missed 812 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,560 Speaker 1: playing the piano, and of course I didn't have a 813 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,720 Speaker 1: piano and access to it as a you know, person 814 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: living in an apartment shared with five other people. Whatever. 815 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: So I bought this keyboard, which it's seventy seven keys, 816 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 1: so not the full eighty eight, but it's most you know, 817 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 1: enough keys that you could play pretty much any piece, 818 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: and they're weighted keyste so it feels more like actually 819 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: playing the piano. And you know, I still use it 820 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: to practice music now. I use it when I'm practicing singing, 821 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: to accompany myself and my kids are learning the piano 822 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: on it. I just sitting in my office and I'm thinking, wow, 823 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, that was probably one of the best three 824 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,479 Speaker 1: hundred bucks I've ever spent in my life. So love 825 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,839 Speaker 1: of the week this week for me Catherine, how about you. 826 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,760 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, this is hard. Can I make it something abstract? Sure? Okay, 827 00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,959 Speaker 1: So yeah, my love of the week, I would say, 828 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 1: is asking for help, because I have done that a 829 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,280 Speaker 1: lot in the process of writing and launching this book, 830 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: and in particular this week, my parents. This is part 831 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,479 Speaker 1: of my own work life balance. My parents live with us, 832 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,399 Speaker 1: and they have just been amazingly helpful. My mom has 833 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 1: cooked I think every meal, and my dad has dealt 834 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: with my power trouble, and friends like you, Laura and 835 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: other writing friends have been so supportive and helpful in 836 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: getting the book out to people. So asking for help 837 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 1: has just saved me this week. That's a good love 838 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,919 Speaker 1: of the week. In general, we should always ask for help, 839 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: whether it comes for you know, the logistics of our 840 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: life or you know, certainly in the issue of kid discipline, 841 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: as we've been talking about in this episode. Well, thank 842 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: you so much for coming on, Catherine. We really appreciate it. 843 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: My pleasure was really a lot of fun. So that 844 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 1: was a fascinating discussion with Catherine. But we're going to 845 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,879 Speaker 1: bring you our traditional Q and A to end this episode. 846 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:01,320 Speaker 1: We actually had someone ask how does podcast work? Behind 847 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: the scenes? I've never done a podcast, and I'm curious 848 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 1: to your process, and we are happy to share. We 849 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: are definitely still novices. We are thirty seven episodes in, 850 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: but there are many many people who've been doing this 851 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 1: for a lot longer. So we can just kind of 852 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: give you give you our process. Yeah, so we I 853 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: mean the basic software. We use Zencaster to record, and 854 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 1: the cool thing about the software is that it records 855 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,759 Speaker 1: the soundtracks on each of our computers separately, so it 856 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,799 Speaker 1: sounds like you're sort of in the studio recording. So 857 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,919 Speaker 1: we are nowhere near each other right now, Sarah, Yeah, 858 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: we've never been well, you know, we've met each other, Yes, 859 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 1: recorded a podcast together. She's in Florida. I'm in Pennsylvania. 860 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 1: But we're talking through our computers to each other. We 861 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 1: both have fairly high end mics that we use medium 862 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 1: and I guess that's true. You can spend infinite amounts 863 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: on my cur they're like one hundred dollar mics. They're 864 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,319 Speaker 1: not I mean, you can even on Amazon they're like 865 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: five thousand dollar mics. And then I'm sure professional recording 866 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: studios have like, you know, tends of thousand all. I 867 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, I'm sure, there's like entreaty on microphones 868 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 1: is what you could do, but we each have those 869 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: in our headphones and then Zencaster records and then when 870 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: we're done, we ship it off. Yeah, so this was 871 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: a big thing. We could have gone the entire do 872 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 1: it yourself route, and a lot of people do. There's 873 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: a lot of resources available that teach you how to 874 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,880 Speaker 1: process your own audio, you know, mix in an intro. 875 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 1: We kind of decided that we don't have time for 876 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,880 Speaker 1: that and we would rather fix that by outsourcing that 877 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: part of things. So Laura had some connections. Do you 878 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: want to tell Oh? Yeah, so Phyllis. So Phyllis came 879 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: to us through Hi Phyllis high Perlis, through Nancy who 880 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: Hi Nancy who's been working with me on digital marketing 881 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,319 Speaker 1: for years and years and she knows a lot of 882 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 1: wonderful usually women own businesses who are in the marketing space. 883 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: So Phyllis and soud Advice at Sales came to us 884 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: through that. So Sarah loads the files up on dropbox. Uh, 885 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:16,359 Speaker 1: Phyllis downloads them and works her magic to make it 886 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: sound better, to take out background noise, to take out 887 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,240 Speaker 1: our pauses, to take out our you know, people working 888 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:26,640 Speaker 1: on that happened there something dumb. Yeah, all that good stuff. 889 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,359 Speaker 1: Although if we still are saying something dumb, it's because 890 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: it was too much in the in the fabric to 891 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,760 Speaker 1: take out. So I'm not saying we've never said anything. 892 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,080 Speaker 1: Maybe with not I use some words that maybe were 893 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: not the wisest but anyway, so yeah, and then and 894 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: then she gets it sent up to the various places, 895 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,800 Speaker 1: to iTunes, to stitch er. We we have Libson is 896 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,360 Speaker 1: the host, right, is that where it's yes, l I B. 897 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:52,800 Speaker 1: S y n is like the most one of the 898 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,799 Speaker 1: most commonly used hosts for podcasts. So if you have 899 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,800 Speaker 1: done any podcasting, you've probably seen that as one option. Yeah. 900 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 1: And as for the editorial content, I mean, that's just 901 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: us coming up with stuff pretty much. Yeah. We usually, 902 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,719 Speaker 1: you know, we'll go down some rabbit trail and then think, ooh, 903 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 1: that could be its own episode. Or sometimes we're inspired 904 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: by a Q and A or some dilemma that's happened, 905 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,719 Speaker 1: or a guest will approach us that seems like a 906 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: really great fit for our listeners, and then that's always 907 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 1: really fun because that will drive the topic of the 908 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,400 Speaker 1: discussion as well. Yeah. So that's how we come up 909 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: with it. We exchange notes beforehand so we know, you 910 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: know what we're going to talk about, what we're going 911 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: to ask our guests, and then we just roll with it. Yes, 912 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 1: we always do take notes. I don't think either of 913 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: us could do this without preparation. But the nice thing 914 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:41,759 Speaker 1: about that is that can be done flexibly on our 915 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 1: own schedules. And you know, sometimes I kind of lead 916 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: the charge and sometimes Floridas, like with this episode, since 917 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: I just went back to work, she kind of put 918 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 1: everything together, but we kind of share those duties. Yeah, 919 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,919 Speaker 1: so that's how it girks, and it's been pretty fun 920 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,359 Speaker 1: so far. I feel like we've grown in our podcasting 921 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,799 Speaker 1: roles definitely, since I have learned a lot. I mean, 922 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,120 Speaker 1: I've never interviewed anyone before and it's really fun, and 923 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 1: now she's interviewed some pretty awesome people, so we've really 924 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. But yeah, please keep the questions coming and 925 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,960 Speaker 1: we would we'd love to have more of them. You 926 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,560 Speaker 1: can always email me al Vanderkam at yahoo dot com 927 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,320 Speaker 1: or post them on either of our blogs. Laura Vandercam 928 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: dot Com is me the Shoe Boxes. The Shoe is 929 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,359 Speaker 1: s h U Sarah's initials box box dot com. We 930 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,520 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you. So this has been 931 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,839 Speaker 1: Best of Both Worlds Episode thirty seven. Tune in next 932 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: week for more on making work in life fit together. 933 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 934 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,720 Speaker 1: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, 935 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 1: and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 936 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: This has been the best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please 937 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: join us next time for more on making work and 938 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:00,800 Speaker 1: life work together. A