Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 2: and speaker.
Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love
Speaker 3: our careers and our families.
Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 1: Term career goals.
Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2: This episode is airing in mid February of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: Sarah is going to be interviewing Nancy Ready about the
Speaker 2: good mother myth how we get ideas of what it
Speaker 2: means to be a good parent or, let's be clear,
Speaker 2: good mother, since that seems to be a bit more
Speaker 2: of a pointed idea of what is required. So, Sarah,
Speaker 2: you know, interviewing Nancy and reading her book, did you
Speaker 2: ever think about where a lot of the myths of
Speaker 2: what exactly a good parent is come from?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I don't feel like I gave it nearly enough thought.
Speaker 3: I feel like it's one of those things where you're
Speaker 3: so bathed in it that you don't even stop to
Speaker 3: think that it like probably has external origins, or that
Speaker 3: some of this is much more subjective and not just
Speaker 3: sort of a baked into the human experience. And we'll
Speaker 3: talk about it in the book. But I actually found
Speaker 3: it really eye opening that there were actual sources for
Speaker 3: some of these ideas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's gonna be fascinating to hear about. I mean, like,
Speaker 2: what are some of the myths that or at least
Speaker 2: the thoughts that you were bathed in that you find
Speaker 2: yourself repeating.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. And I would be curious to know
Speaker 3: if these also resonate with you. But I feel like
Speaker 3: and some of these came from the book, and some
Speaker 3: of them were just for me. But like a good
Speaker 3: mine is sad when she is away from her baby
Speaker 3: or child for any length of time. A good mother
Speaker 3: is always dedicated to making sure her kids have what
Speaker 3: they need and it's specifically her fault if they don't.
Speaker 3: And how about a good mother always puts her family's
Speaker 3: needs ahead of her own.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is interesting because her own needs Sometimes that
Speaker 2: means job too. Write like as if a job is
Speaker 2: like a fun, cute little thing that a mom has.
Speaker 2: Here's an interesting thought experiment for our listeners. What if
Speaker 2: I use the phrase a good mother earns enough money
Speaker 2: to support her family?
Speaker 1: Well, what if I threw that one out there?
Speaker 3: Super interesting and then you can always try it with
Speaker 3: the experiment A good father always earns enough money to
Speaker 3: support his family. Well, a good father is sad when
Speaker 3: he is away from his baby or child for any
Speaker 3: length of time.
Speaker 2: So what it is, though, is that we have an
Speaker 2: idea that you know, in many cases, we do believe
Speaker 2: that a good father supports his family. We do not
Speaker 2: believe that a good mother should be supporting her family.
Speaker 1: But why not? I mean, it's this, you know, it's
Speaker 1: the same like you could hold.
Speaker 2: The same standard to people, or that somebody might be
Speaker 2: sad when they're away from their baby. It could be
Speaker 2: a mother or father, And yet we don't tend to think, like,
Speaker 2: you know, a father is sad when he's away for
Speaker 2: any amount of time. So I don't know, I just
Speaker 2: find that fascinating where we get these different notions and
Speaker 2: whether they serve us in any.
Speaker 1: Way or you know all that I think.
Speaker 3: You tend to be more immune to them than me.
Speaker 2: Perhaps I don't know, well, I mean, partly it's because
Speaker 2: the way I've worked, like through the whole of having children,
Speaker 2: Like there's like zero things I can't do if I
Speaker 2: wanted to, right, Like I mean having complete control over
Speaker 2: your schedule. I guess I just don't feel like I
Speaker 2: need to do everything. I do plenty of things and
Speaker 2: have scratched that itch. So if I want to be
Speaker 2: a room parent, I can, and I have. If I
Speaker 2: want to go volunteer for the kid's Valentine's Day party,
Speaker 2: I can, and I have do. I then also want
Speaker 2: to do four other parties in the course of the year.
Speaker 1: Maybe not.
Speaker 2: Maybe I feel like I've already done that and don't
Speaker 2: need to be at everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean partly it's also having five kids, so you
Speaker 2: know you can't be at everything. I mean, this is
Speaker 2: a line I've had a number of people say to
Speaker 2: me recently, sort of like the idea of that with
Speaker 2: the idea of being a good parent, like I need
Speaker 2: to go to every practice in every game. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: nobody goes to every practice in every game, especially if
Speaker 2: you have like three kids, because there's something is going
Speaker 2: to be at the same time, right, So then it's
Speaker 2: just a question of what are you missing? And if
Speaker 2: everybody's missing something, then you know, it's just a degree
Speaker 2: of how many things you plan to miss and how
Speaker 2: many other things one could do with.
Speaker 1: The cost of time, I mean the opportunity cost of time.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, it just seems like less of
Speaker 2: a harsh trade off.
Speaker 1: Than I think a lot of people think it is.
Speaker 3: Yes, no, that is one of those true you definitely
Speaker 3: hear and I feel like, were you looking for a
Speaker 3: point a cookie A yeah, I don't know, an A.
Speaker 2: Plus there's other things too, like I mean, to me,
Speaker 2: a good mother values her children becoming their own independent selves, right,
Speaker 2: So that means that you can't do everything for them,
Speaker 2: and in many cases it is their own responsibility to
Speaker 2: learn how to say, go advocate for themselves with their
Speaker 2: school counselor if you need something, and you could coach
Speaker 2: the kid to do that, but the good mother doesn't
Speaker 2: actually do it herself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's one way to think of it, and
Speaker 3: yet culturally, I think there's a lot of pressure to
Speaker 3: feel the other way. So super super interesting. I am
Speaker 3: so excited for this interview and I do highly recommend
Speaker 3: her book. It was eye opening to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well let's see what Nancy Ready has
Speaker 1: to say.
Speaker 3: Well, I am so excited to welcome Nancy Ready to
Speaker 3: this podcast. Her material was so eye opening to me,
Speaker 3: and I just feel like she is going to her
Speaker 3: stuff is going to resonate very well with many of
Speaker 3: you listeners. So I'm just especially excited for this episode.
Speaker 3: Nancy wrote the Good Mother myth, and I'll share links
Speaker 3: to all that, but Nancy, go ahead and introduce yourself.
Speaker 2: Hi.
Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here. This is kind of
Speaker 4: kind of my dream to be on a podcast that
Speaker 4: talks about both like parenting and work, and those things
Speaker 4: are both really important. So I'm a writer and a
Speaker 4: writing teacher. I have two kids who are nine and eleven.
Speaker 4: I feel like we're in like the opposite of peak.
Speaker 4: We're in like the valley of the winter cold grossness.
Speaker 4: So they're both at school right now, but they've been
Speaker 4: alternating all kinds of horrible illnesses for the last couple
Speaker 4: of weeks. So yeah, that's me so excited.
Speaker 3: Oh and interesting they're nine to eleven because I have
Speaker 3: questions related to some older kids later, so that is perfect.
Speaker 3: Mine are seven eleven and thirteen for.
Speaker 4: Rect Oh wow, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 3: So what brought you the inspiration? I think I know
Speaker 3: with some of it because of all the personal stories
Speaker 3: shared in the book, But like what ultimately inspired you
Speaker 3: to write The Good Mother Myth?
Speaker 4: I mean, it really was just this personal personal journey
Speaker 4: a lot of ways. I had my two kids when
Speaker 4: I was in graduate school, and I had, as I
Speaker 4: share in the book, like all of these ideas that
Speaker 4: were so deeply ingrained. I don't think I really could
Speaker 4: have even articulated them, but I had these really just
Speaker 4: intense ideas about what it would mean to be a
Speaker 4: good mom and that it was both possible to do
Speaker 4: it right and like if I did it a certain
Speaker 4: natural way, that would all be like easy and blissful
Speaker 4: and joyful and spoiler alert, that is not quite how
Speaker 4: things went. And we had a wild couple of years.
Speaker 4: I had two kids pretty close together. We moved when
Speaker 4: they are really little for my job, and I kind
Speaker 4: of came up a couple of years later, like kind
Speaker 4: of came up for air when they were three and
Speaker 4: five and felt like what just happened to me? Like
Speaker 4: what was that? And this book is really the product
Speaker 4: of a many year investigation of that question, and.
Speaker 3: You asked the right questions because in what you even
Speaker 3: just said, like not only was I struggling, but I
Speaker 3: was like struggling a second time because it was supposed
Speaker 3: to be good, So obviously I'm wrong. It's like that
Speaker 3: second sting you were having. I don't think many of
Speaker 3: us and having you know, been in those shoes, especially
Speaker 3: when my kids were younger. I think we shared some
Speaker 3: similar struggles like the pump and things like that. I
Speaker 3: never really thought to ask the question that you did
Speaker 3: so eloquently and explored so well, like why why do
Speaker 3: we feel like failures? Where did we get the image
Speaker 3: of what right actually looks like? Is it valid? Who
Speaker 3: came up with it?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 3: I guess there's a little bit more of it now,
Speaker 3: But what got you to like go all the way
Speaker 3: back to the beginning? Did you kind of just keep
Speaker 3: following threads?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there was a while where this project
Speaker 4: was like really it was like a wild, wild project.
Speaker 4: I got really into primates for a long time. I
Speaker 4: was doing a lot of research. I'm kind of like
Speaker 4: the trying to understand like the hormonal and like neurobiological
Speaker 4: like mechanisms behind postpart and mood and anxiety disorders. In
Speaker 4: the final version of the project is much more focused
Speaker 4: than that, which is good, and I ended up really
Speaker 4: focusing on the science and scientists that emerged in the
Speaker 4: kind of post war period. And certainly there's a long
Speaker 4: history of ideals around motherhood, like that goes back as
Speaker 4: long as there have been people and families, probably, but
Speaker 4: I really focus on that time period because I think
Speaker 4: it's this moment when a lot of our ideas about
Speaker 4: how important mothers are and how they're like the whole
Speaker 4: world for their baby and they're supposed to do all
Speaker 4: this work on their own and not get paid for
Speaker 4: it because it's a labor of love. Like it's a
Speaker 4: moment when a lot of those ideas really crystallized, and
Speaker 4: when there was all of this research that I think
Speaker 4: made it seem like it's not just a good idea,
Speaker 4: but it's also like science says that your baby needs
Speaker 4: to be there every minute and if you go to
Speaker 4: work or have other interests, that it's going to damage
Speaker 4: your kid. And I think those ideas are still really
Speaker 4: with us, and it turns out that the science beneath
Speaker 4: them is pretty bad.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So one of the mic drop moments in your
Speaker 3: book was when you said, and I think this was
Speaker 3: referring to like Ainsworth or you'll tell me which expert,
Speaker 3: the only thing your child needs to thrive is your
Speaker 3: emotional availability and responsiveness. And you wrote the only thing.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's this, but I think it's really true,
Speaker 4: and I think you can still see this, I mean
Speaker 4: definitely on social media, this idea that like, oh Mama,
Speaker 4: it's so like natural and like the only thing your
Speaker 4: baby needs is your love, like you can do that.
Speaker 4: And I don't know, I just think it's a message
Speaker 4: and I think makes moms oftentimes feel really bad in
Speaker 4: a sneaky way, in part because like if the mom
Speaker 4: is giving this like endless love and care.
Speaker 1: Like who's caring for her?
Speaker 4: You know, And we don't do a good job of that,
Speaker 4: I think, especially with really new moms.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like we're not allowed to want to break, or
Speaker 3: if we do, then that's definitely either something wrong with us,
Speaker 3: like because yeah, there's always like two layers of this, right,
Speaker 3: it's what you're doing, and then it's also how you
Speaker 3: feel about what you're doing, and then it's also how
Speaker 3: you feel about failing. Like I don't know, it's multi multi,
Speaker 3: multi layers, and.
Speaker 4: So often now I think there's also this level of
Speaker 4: performance about how you feel about how you're doing, Like
Speaker 4: you're both supposed to I think, like love every minute
Speaker 4: with your baby, or you're supposed to do all of
Speaker 4: the care. You're supposed to love getting to do all
Speaker 4: of that care, and you're supposed to have this like
Speaker 4: kind of social media presence of like, look at how
Speaker 4: much I love getting to be the twenty four to
Speaker 4: seven caretaker for this tiny, needy person.
Speaker 3: You know, yes, And we'll get into social media in
Speaker 3: a minute. I think both of us are lucky enough
Speaker 3: that our kids were babies a little bit before there
Speaker 3: was like an avalanche of that, although my youngest I
Speaker 3: think we were starting to get there. Funnily enough, I
Speaker 3: quit all social media a couple of years after that.
Speaker 3: So smart, But what are some of your favorite myths? Like,
Speaker 3: let's just like take a couple of your top three
Speaker 3: if you had to come up with them.
Speaker 4: Oh sure, I mean the biggest thing, I think, the
Speaker 4: one that's like at the center of the whole tower
Speaker 4: of mythology, is just the idea that like a good
Speaker 4: mom can do it all on her own. And I
Speaker 4: think we have this like super mom mythology and our culture,
Speaker 4: and I think underneath that is the idea that like
Speaker 4: as soon as you have a baby, you'll be transformed,
Speaker 4: like pregnancy and birth will like turn you into this
Speaker 4: superhuman person who can just do all of the care,
Speaker 4: do all of the nursing, do all of the feeding,
Speaker 4: all of the laundry, like so much laundry with a
Speaker 4: little baby, and I won't mind, right, because you're just
Speaker 4: powered by love. And I think for me, like the
Speaker 4: love is very real, like that's you know, like the
Speaker 4: love that I feel for my kids has changed my
Speaker 4: life and I'm so grateful for that. But the expectation
Speaker 4: that like motherhood and parenting is also a lot of labor, right,
Speaker 4: and that you never mind that labor because of the love,
Speaker 4: Like that's a pretty unfair expectation, and I think that
Speaker 4: makes a lot of moms feel bad. If you're like, hey, man,
Speaker 4: like I love this baby and I don't want to
Speaker 4: see him every forty five minutes in the middle of
Speaker 4: the night, Like you know, that is not it's okay
Speaker 4: to not be having a good time. I think in
Speaker 4: some parts of.
Speaker 3: It, or on the flip side, I think another myth
Speaker 3: is that you're not supposed to like enjoy your work
Speaker 3: or time away from the baby. Can you address that?
Speaker 4: Oh, my goodness, absolutely. And I would say I feel
Speaker 4: very lucky that I was raised by a working mom
Speaker 4: who worked really hard in her career and who was
Speaker 4: also really present for me and my sister. She was
Speaker 4: a single mom for a lot of my childhood, and
Speaker 4: I know that that was hard in terms of balancing,
Speaker 4: like she worked a very conventional office job, but she
Speaker 4: created this model I think for me and my sister
Speaker 4: where it just was normal to both work and have kids.
Speaker 4: And I'm really grateful for that. And I just I
Speaker 4: mean in part because I had such a tough time
Speaker 4: with my first baby, Like it was very clear to
Speaker 4: me that like I think some moms feel like, oh,
Speaker 4: I'm the special one. I'm the only one who knows
Speaker 4: how to do whatever, And I was like, I do
Speaker 4: not know what I am doing here, Like this baby
Speaker 4: does not seem to you know, I'm not a magic
Speaker 4: person for him. At least they didn't feel that way
Speaker 4: at first, and so in a way, it made it
Speaker 4: much easier to send him to daycare. He started going
Speaker 4: to it. We had like a babysitter when he was
Speaker 4: when he was little, and he started going to daycare
Speaker 4: when he was six months old, this like little very
Speaker 4: unfancy in home place. That was so sweet and I
Speaker 4: mean that was such a joy, Like to get to
Speaker 4: send him to daycare, to know that he would be
Speaker 4: really well cared for, he'd be around other kids, and
Speaker 4: my husband and I both got to work like that
Speaker 4: was such a I mean really for me, like unmixed blessing,
Speaker 4: Like there was no part of me that felt ambivalent
Speaker 4: or bad about that.
Speaker 3: And probably the only part that would feel bad is
Speaker 3: that you felt bad that you didn't feel bad. Perhaps
Speaker 3: well you didn't you're.
Speaker 4: Making kids, didn't, I know, I mean it was just
Speaker 4: like kind of I don't just like always it is
Speaker 4: very hard for me to have an unmixed feeling, but
Speaker 4: I feel like daycare and we were lucky that we had,
Speaker 4: you know, we were able at theos stage to find
Speaker 4: daycare that we felt good about. It was always like
Speaker 4: very unfancy, like they were eating you know, like hot
Speaker 4: dogs and spaghetti, you know, in this lady's house. And
Speaker 4: to be totally honest, like by the time we moved
Speaker 4: to New Jersey, and had two kids, like it was
Speaker 4: that was expensive, Like it would definitely push us financially.
Speaker 4: Maybe that's the only thing that I have a reservation
Speaker 4: about around daycare. Right. We were lucky to find daycare
Speaker 4: where we felt like our kids it was of a
Speaker 4: quality where our kids felt safe. But I think it
Speaker 4: was very obvious to me from my own experiences as
Speaker 4: a kid and then from my experiences as a mother
Speaker 4: that like, it is actually great for kids to be
Speaker 4: cared for by lots of people, right, that it's not
Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be just the mom or the
Speaker 4: mom and the dad or co parent and doing it
Speaker 4: all totally.
Speaker 3: And I love daycare too. I just always felt like
Speaker 3: there was this cultural zeitgeist that like admitting that out
Speaker 3: loud was bad. And I actually had a mentor who
Speaker 3: was lovely. I'm a physic, Like I do this podcasting thing,
Speaker 3: but I'm also a physician, so you know, I was
Speaker 3: in my fellowship training and this mentor who was like
Speaker 3: a good researcher and now she's like a division chief.
Speaker 3: She said very cheerfully to me one day, She's like,
Speaker 3: I love daycare. I love and she had three kids.
Speaker 3: She's like, I love coming to work. And I remember
Speaker 3: hearing that as like, oh my gosh, Like I respect her,
Speaker 3: she loves daycare. I'm allowed to love daycare. Like I
Speaker 3: can enjoy that I get to use my brain and
Speaker 3: be free during the day and like have non baby
Speaker 3: related thoughts and that's not a bad thing. And the
Speaker 3: fact that like I needed that like reassurance in order
Speaker 3: to like give myself.
Speaker 4: Permission, yeah, is wild.
Speaker 3: And it all comes down to, like the stuff that
Speaker 3: you talk about, like what are these cultural currents that, yeah,
Speaker 3: unfortunately kind of conspire to make people feel a certain
Speaker 3: way a lot of the time.
Speaker 4: But I also feel like this is a lot of
Speaker 4: what we can do for each other, right, is to
Speaker 4: like share that message like actually daycare is great, Like
Speaker 4: actually you can love your work and know that your
Speaker 4: kids are going to be great. I mean, I remember
Speaker 4: when I got into this writing. It was like a
Speaker 4: writing conference. It was ten or twelve days long. It
Speaker 4: was really long, and my kids were really little, like
Speaker 4: three and one. My husband had encouraged me to apply,
Speaker 4: and then I got in and I got a fellowship
Speaker 4: so it was paid for, and I think he was
Speaker 4: a little like, oh, no, what have I done? They'd
Speaker 4: always got a daycare, and I'd always traveled for conferences,
Speaker 4: but that was a really long time to be away
Speaker 4: from them when they were so small, and I felt
Speaker 4: like really nervous about it. And I remember talking to
Speaker 4: a friend of mine who said, it is really good
Speaker 4: for your kids to see you doing something that matters
Speaker 4: to you, Like that's valuable, And that was such a gift,
Speaker 4: like to know like, Okay, like I'm doing this for me,
Speaker 4: Like this is definitely a valuable thing for me. But
Speaker 4: also I can still be a good mom, right, Like,
Speaker 4: even as I'm away from them at this like fancy conference,
Speaker 4: enjoying my time. That doesn't like invalidate who I am
Speaker 4: as a mom. It doesn't make me a bad.
Speaker 3: Mom one hundred percent. It doesn't negatively kind of impact
Speaker 3: their life. In fact, maybe it's more bonding time with dad.
Speaker 3: Maybe they're getting right.
Speaker 4: They developed all of these like little rituals that they
Speaker 4: I have really sweet pictures of them. They got the
Speaker 4: habita fang like a little popsicle in in the kitchen
Speaker 4: together every night. Yeah, and I think it's good. It's
Speaker 4: good for dads too, right to have that time.
Speaker 3: We're gonna take a very quick break We're going to
Speaker 3: talk about a couple more myths and then maybe what
Speaker 3: advice you would give yourself, your new mom's self. All right,
Speaker 3: we're back. Can you think of any well I want
Speaker 3: to talk about kind of like how these myths are
Speaker 3: presented to us in today's context. But I guess do
Speaker 3: you have any one more myth perhaps that you can
Speaker 3: come up with? So we had like leaving the baby
Speaker 3: is bad. It's not okay to like childcare or childcare
Speaker 3: is going to hurt your kid in some way.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think the other big one is just
Speaker 4: this like the idea of the automatic selflessness that like
Speaker 4: you'll be transformed and you'll just be capable of, I
Speaker 4: don't know, becoming this person who kind of doesn't have needs.
Speaker 4: I think we often expect moms to just always put
Speaker 4: themselves last and not mind and to think that that's
Speaker 4: a measure of being a good mom, that you're caring
Speaker 4: for everyone else first. I mean I talk about this
Speaker 4: very practically with some friends of mine who are like,
Speaker 4: oh man, everyone else in my family is up to
Speaker 4: date on all of their well visits and their eye
Speaker 4: doctor's appointments and their flu shots and all of that,
Speaker 4: and like I haven't been to the doctor in six years,
Speaker 4: and like and sometimes it gets like just practically you know,
Speaker 4: it's sometimes people get behind on stuff. But sometimes I
Speaker 4: feel like there's a way in which it can feel
Speaker 4: really good to care for other people, which is great,
Speaker 4: but we also need to care for ourselves and also
Speaker 4: expect other people in our family to help care for
Speaker 4: us too, which I think is hard to do for
Speaker 4: a lot of women.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say my like thought around or like
Speaker 3: pet peeve around that is that not around what you said,
Speaker 3: but like when mothers are like I have to care
Speaker 3: for myself so I can be a better mom. Like
Speaker 3: it doesn't always have to be circular, I know, and
Speaker 3: come back to the kid.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like you are still a person, right, And I
Speaker 4: think that we I don't, but we're not good about
Speaker 4: sharing that message, right, Like there's the kind of like
Speaker 4: put your own oxygen mask on first so that you
Speaker 4: can care for your kid. And I'm like, I don't know, man,
Speaker 4: I'm still a person. Like here, I am, I'm still here,
Speaker 4: you know, I have needs and interests that are actually
Speaker 4: not about my kids or about being a parent to them.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the phrase we sometimes use is like
Speaker 3: we count too, you know, which is so like, but
Speaker 3: it's useful to say that sometimes we do need to
Speaker 3: remind ourselves. I think, yes, all right, we'll bringing ourselves
Speaker 3: into the present and how new moms are currently being
Speaker 3: bathed in various images. You painted some good pictures of
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, all the times you mentioned, like the babies,
Speaker 3: and like the natural wraps and how comfortable they were.
Speaker 3: I mean, I love the Ergo baby. That thing was great,
Speaker 3: But I never managed those like stretchy things where we
Speaker 3: had to wrap it around ten times.
Speaker 4: It's so long, like watching videos of people doing it. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I went to classes on baby wearing. I tried so
Speaker 4: hard with the what do they call it, the Moby
Speaker 4: Rap Baby.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the movie that was we have similar age kids,
Speaker 3: So that was the lot one. I'm sure there's a
Speaker 3: a new one now, but yeah, tell us about I
Speaker 3: don't know, like how you feel like the images of
Speaker 3: the right kind of parenting are affecting women.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, in a way, I feel lucky that
Speaker 4: like the images that I absorbed, I'm mostly absorbed in
Speaker 4: real life, which I think is kind of increasingly not
Speaker 4: the case anymore. You know, when my kids are born
Speaker 4: twenty thirteen twenty fifteen. We lived in Madison, Wisconsin, which
Speaker 4: is this like crunchy college town, and you know, I
Speaker 4: felt like every I was like for years kind of
Speaker 4: like eyeing up the moms around me, kind of trying
Speaker 4: to be like, what do they do, what does it
Speaker 4: look like? How does that work? And you know, I
Speaker 4: see all these moms, as you said, like in the
Speaker 4: Moby wrap and like walking, and they just they looked
Speaker 4: so beautiful and peaceful. It's like this really aspirational image
Speaker 4: for me, this ideal of what I really would have
Speaker 4: said at the time, just like natural parenting. I think
Speaker 4: I would have said that with like no scare quotes,
Speaker 4: no awareness of like natural it's actually a really complicated concept.
Speaker 4: And it just looked like glowy and beautiful and easy
Speaker 4: and peaceful, you know, like if you breastfeed, if you
Speaker 4: do it in the wrap, if you co sleep, like
Speaker 4: it's all just so lovely. And I think, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's easy to blame Instagram for everything, and
Speaker 4: I think there is some sort of maybe some truth
Speaker 4: to that. There's so much aspirational content online now, and
Speaker 4: I think it's so hard when you see an image
Speaker 4: of someone who seems like they've got it together because
Speaker 4: you're not seeing like the texts they send to their friends,
Speaker 4: right like you're not seeing the behind the scenes kind
Speaker 4: of part of it. I mean, I do like one
Speaker 4: thing that I do think is really changed, and I
Speaker 4: be curious your perspective on this is that I do
Speaker 4: feel like social media, but also other kinds of media
Speaker 4: have changed conversations around maternal mental health. I feel like
Speaker 4: there's a lot more openness and a lot more information
Speaker 4: available than there was to me when I was first
Speaker 4: a mom. And so it's not all bad, right, It's
Speaker 4: not like I think all of social media is bad,
Speaker 4: but I just think there's a really curated version of
Speaker 4: motherhood that's kind of of sneaky and how beautiful it
Speaker 4: makes things seem. What do you think?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, I mean you're always seeing highlight reels
Speaker 3: right like you're not seeing and even when you took
Speaker 3: your walks. But it's even worse on Instagram. At least
Speaker 3: on your walks. You might occasionally see a baby cry
Speaker 3: in the mobi rap, but probably on Insta, Like you
Speaker 3: would never see a baby cry on the MOBEI rap
Speaker 3: because they would have cut the film by that point.
Speaker 3: So I kind of think it lends itself to like
Speaker 3: because it's sort of promising to show you snippets of
Speaker 3: real life, but it's also completely edited. I think it
Speaker 3: can be particularly sneaky for that kind of thing. I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't have personal experience of watching those reels I
Speaker 3: think too much or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I can.
Speaker 3: See how it could be particularly troubling. However, I agree
Speaker 3: with you that the openness of talking about postpartum depression
Speaker 3: or the need to get help, and even to some
Speaker 3: degree they kind of like twenty tens trope of like
Speaker 3: parentsing's really hard and this sucks. Sometimes that kind of
Speaker 3: fell out of favor and goes back in and out,
Speaker 3: like sometimes that can be helpful. Sometimes there's a side
Speaker 3: of that, it's like commiseration or just like celebrating the
Speaker 3: universality of certain struggles that I could see how that
Speaker 3: could be healthy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think it's not at you know,
Speaker 4: I'm still at Instagram and like, have you know, ambivalent
Speaker 4: feelings about that, but I think it can be really
Speaker 4: useful when people are kind of open and vulnerable and
Speaker 4: sharing things. I also just think, I don't know, I
Speaker 4: worry sometimes that the way that we are inclined to
Speaker 4: curate and present our lives on social media, and the
Speaker 4: way that we often want to like seek out expertise
Speaker 4: online prevents us from forming the relationships that we need
Speaker 4: in person. You know, Like it's a lot easier to
Speaker 4: like scroll and find someone who's going to like tell
Speaker 4: you how to get your baby to sleep, and like
Speaker 4: who knows that that's actually going to work or not,
Speaker 4: But it's probably what you really need is to like
Speaker 4: text a friend and be like, I am losing my mind,
Speaker 4: Like when you come sit with this baby, can I
Speaker 4: just complain for a minute. I think like that sometimes
Speaker 4: that kind of like parasocial online relationship feels like a relationship,
Speaker 4: And what most of us really need is a lot
Speaker 4: more community.
Speaker 3: Yes, And when you're in those low points and your
Speaker 3: energy is low and you're tired, you might not make
Speaker 3: the effort to seek the real community out when that
Speaker 3: would help you more. Not to mention the fact that
Speaker 3: many of those sleep influencers are like selling you something
Speaker 3: exactly exactly.
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness. I always think like if you slap
Speaker 4: like sleep on a product or on a handle or whatever,
Speaker 4: like there's just desperate parents who are going to pay
Speaker 4: any amount of money for that.
Speaker 3: I did that. I remember sort of like searching the
Speaker 3: internet like there was going to be an answer.
Speaker 4: I know, I know, I think, oh man, which, yeah,
Speaker 4: I wanted there to be an answer and there's not.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Some kids are answer or permission to do crying out
Speaker 3: or like something some sort of authoritative voice.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's another thing that I will say. And actually
Speaker 4: I didn't read she's a friend of mine now, but
Speaker 4: I didn't know at the time. Miranda Rake wrote a
Speaker 4: beautiful essay I want to say and romp or about
Speaker 4: cry it out, just like advocating for it. She's like,
Speaker 4: sleep training change my family's life. It's great. Everyone should
Speaker 4: do it if you want to write like it's not
Speaker 4: the right fit for everyone. But that was really amazing
Speaker 4: for me to read like a totally unapologetic endorsement of
Speaker 4: sleep training, which I had done with a lot of
Speaker 4: ambivalence of the time, and now I'm like, you know what,
Speaker 4: like that was what we needed. And so that was
Speaker 4: another thing where I was like, oh man, if there's
Speaker 4: someone out there saying like you can do this and
Speaker 4: it's going to be okay, and it's going to get
Speaker 4: you ready to sleep, doesn't make you a bad mom.
Speaker 1: That's worth a lot.
Speaker 3: I think we're going to take another break, and then
Speaker 3: we're going to kind of look back and see how
Speaker 3: the years of perspective and research might inform how you
Speaker 3: would counsel your young self. All right, we are back.
Speaker 3: So as you were talking about sleep training, I'm thinking, like, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's so funny. I don't even like totally remember which
Speaker 3: my kids were sleep trained and which weren't. And like
Speaker 3: you recognize when your kids are teens that like it
Speaker 3: was all gonna be okay, but we cannot see that
Speaker 3: in the moment, like at all.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, and not only do you have that perspective, but
Speaker 3: you also have the benefit of like all this research
Speaker 3: of actually knowing where some of these things come from.
Speaker 3: So if you're giving yourself a pep talk and you're
Speaker 3: there with your you're sitting there with the pump and
Speaker 3: nothing's coming out, just like it was just like had
Speaker 3: happened all the time, what would you tell yourself?
Speaker 4: Oh man, so many things. I mean, I think the
Speaker 4: biggest thing, this still feels emotional. The biggest thing is
Speaker 4: just like it's not your fault, like it's not your
Speaker 4: fault that it feels hard. I think the other thing
Speaker 4: that was so hard for me to see, especially when
Speaker 4: my first one was really little, was that like there
Speaker 4: were real life of really hard times. But also I
Speaker 4: just said, I have no idea like how much joy
Speaker 4: was ahead of me, you know, like it really because
Speaker 4: that joy and the meaning is so particular. You know,
Speaker 4: it's like getting to see the things that your kid
Speaker 4: notices on the walk to school because they are their
Speaker 4: own particular person.
Speaker 1: Like for me, the real.
Speaker 4: Joy of parenting is the really particular relationship, like getting
Speaker 4: to see the person that your kid becomes and what
Speaker 4: they notice and what they care about and like weird
Speaker 4: jokes they tell you. And none of that has anything
Speaker 4: to do with the ideas that I had about being
Speaker 4: a good mom, you know, like none of that has
Speaker 4: anything to do with are they eating lunches that like
Speaker 4: look cute and that I could put on Instagram? Are
Speaker 4: they wearing matching socks? Never the pressure so often of
Speaker 4: the things that I thought I had to do to
Speaker 4: be good, Like that's not really what's like magical about parenting.
Speaker 3: And I'm also hearing in what you're saying and this
Speaker 3: is actually super timely. We have an episode coming up
Speaker 3: in a few weeks that's like positive parenting milestones, like
Speaker 3: things to look forward to. But I guess part of
Speaker 3: what you're getting at is like this is only one
Speaker 3: small slice of what it's like to be a mother,
Speaker 3: and stay tuned because if this part's hard, maybe you
Speaker 3: like other parts better because they're actually pretty different.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think. I mean, I love my kids obviously
Speaker 4: when they were babies, but I think that some people
Speaker 4: and I am one, like that's just not my moment
Speaker 4: to shine as a parent, right, Like I really struggle
Speaker 4: with sleep deprivation, Like that was really hard for me.
Speaker 4: And I also just like I love talking. I love
Speaker 4: getting to like sit next to each other and read books.
Speaker 4: I love getting to go places together, you know, all
Speaker 4: of the things that you can do with kids that
Speaker 4: are a little bit older.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. How do you feel like with
Speaker 3: your kids being older?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 3: What are the myths?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 3: Are they different with big kids? Like here would be
Speaker 3: one like your kid needs to be in at least
Speaker 3: for high level activities by fourth grade or you have
Speaker 3: not done your job as I mean, I don't.
Speaker 4: Know, but like, no, the activities are exactly where I
Speaker 4: was going to go. And I think maybe it's because
Speaker 4: we've been lucky that both of my kids, like academically
Speaker 4: are great, they're fine, and don't worry about them in
Speaker 4: terms of like school performance. But it's the activities and
Speaker 4: we've really chosen as a family, and my husband and
Speaker 4: I like we have an intentional choice to not overload
Speaker 4: our kids with activities and also to not push them
Speaker 4: too much to do things they don't want to do,
Speaker 4: because we really value having like unstructured time together as
Speaker 4: a family. But it does mean, you know, sometimes I
Speaker 4: talk to friends whose kids are doing like two different
Speaker 4: sports and theater and something else, and that's that's where
Speaker 4: for me, like that should really kicks in, where I
Speaker 4: start to feel like, oh, should I be doing this?
Speaker 4: Should I be doing this? And I'm really tempted right
Speaker 4: now to like list the things my kids do because
Speaker 4: I do do activities. But that's not the point.
Speaker 3: The point is that there's not a right way.
Speaker 4: There's not a right way, and that I think that
Speaker 4: our art, I think a lot of like kind of
Speaker 4: mainstream and especially like upper middle class white parent and
Speaker 4: culture like really pushes families towards doing so much. I mean,
Speaker 4: and I think sometimes like, man, when do you get
Speaker 4: to just like hang out with your kids. When do
Speaker 4: you get to, like, I also hang out with your friends.
Speaker 4: You know, we were over at friends for dinner last
Speaker 4: night and some of those things. It could be so
Speaker 4: hard to schedule time with other families because it's like, oh,
Speaker 4: we've got a soccer game, and then we've got a star,
Speaker 4: and then we've got a basketball game, and then we've
Speaker 4: got a theater performance, and then we've got whatever, and
Speaker 4: like that's the right fit for some families. I'm sure.
Speaker 4: I'm sure there are families that love that and it's
Speaker 4: really meaningful. But for us, that's not what I want
Speaker 4: to be doing. My kids are also just not team
Speaker 4: sports kids, so that's not the phase that we're in totally.
Speaker 3: So that would be like an older kids.
Speaker 4: You think, I don't know, maybe I'm just like especially
Speaker 4: hung up on on activities. I feel like that's the
Speaker 4: big one. But what do you think about what.
Speaker 3: Your trying to think? I mean, And my kids, by
Speaker 3: the way, for disclaimer, are like I have a club
Speaker 3: soccer player to tynts and like whatever, right, but it's
Speaker 3: like a season and joy exactly it's not right, right
Speaker 3: or wrong. It's like this is where we are right now,
Speaker 3: and you know what, next year, I actually think we
Speaker 3: might not be there and like that's great too, like
Speaker 3: that it's not a but hmmm. I think a lot
Speaker 3: of stuff around school prepare like are you doing like
Speaker 3: extra are you trying to push your kid and like
Speaker 3: get to their greatest potential at a young age, Like
Speaker 3: maybe they don't need to be at their greatest potential
Speaker 3: in fifth grade. Maybe they can just enjoy school doing
Speaker 3: their work and not through the extra tutoring.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 3: One big one that I keep hearing is like I
Speaker 3: need to have my kid do I was at a
Speaker 3: birthday party yesterday and this guy was like, we need
Speaker 3: to have our kids coding because and I'm like, honestly,
Speaker 3: probably the robots will code better than the humans by
Speaker 3: the time our kids would be coders. So I'm not
Speaker 3: even sure that would be like time.
Speaker 4: Was Yeah, No, I think I mayn't think anything to
Speaker 4: a tech right, Like we can't possibly foresee the kind
Speaker 4: of world that our kids are going into. I also like,
Speaker 4: my husband is a programmer, and I'm like, you can
Speaker 4: learn how to do that, right, That's not something it's
Speaker 4: not like a foreign language that you like are better
Speaker 4: off learning and when you're super young, like you can
Speaker 4: learn that at sixteen or twenty or twenty five.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Ooh, and I have another and oh and I was
Speaker 3: gonna say about the coding thing, like if they love it.
Speaker 3: By the way, nobody is not me saying like, don't
Speaker 3: do it if they love it. Amazing. Another big one
Speaker 3: is you're supposed to be really upset and worried if
Speaker 3: your kid leaves you for any amount of time. Okay,
Speaker 3: my son went on a field trip that was like
Speaker 3: forty eight hours. He's my middle child, so and he's
Speaker 3: been to sleep away camp. Yeah, so for me, a
Speaker 3: forty eight hour field trip with his classroom was just
Speaker 3: a joyous, lovely experience. I was thrilled that he was
Speaker 3: getting to do outdoor activities with his teachers and multiple shepherdes.
Speaker 3: And I had literally zero worries. None. Yeah, but the
Speaker 3: chat and then I sort of felt like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: am I a bad parent because I'm not like, not
Speaker 3: only am I not having worries, but I'm not like
Speaker 3: expressing the worries. And then at the end of the trip,
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, other parents for my school are gonna
Speaker 3: hear it. But anyway, there was a barrage of like
Speaker 3: reunited pictures. I'm like, guys, it was two nights, like hours,
Speaker 3: I mean, questioning whether again am I doing something wrong
Speaker 3: by like not being upset about it? And I think
Speaker 3: this is a trope. It's just a trope like anything else,
Speaker 3: Like I'm supposed to like yearn for my kid even
Speaker 3: if they're gone for two days doing something totally awesome
Speaker 3: and I'm just at work. Yeah, anyway, I mean, I
Speaker 3: think so much of that is the should, right.
Speaker 4: I feel like anytime that word kind of comes into
Speaker 4: my brain, I try to pause and think, is this
Speaker 4: something that I really feel or is this something I
Speaker 4: think I'm supposed to feel, Because I'm sure their parents
Speaker 4: there who really like desperately miss their kids for forty
Speaker 4: four hours, although I don't necessary at eleven that seems all.
Speaker 4: I mean, we also have sent our kids. Our kids
Speaker 4: have gone asleep boy camp for years and they like it.
Speaker 4: At my husband, I love it so But I would
Speaker 4: say I also have the experience, like a lot of
Speaker 4: the teaching that I do with first year college students,
Speaker 4: many of them were wonderful, like I love getting to
Speaker 4: work with kids at that age, but it does oftentimes
Speaker 4: give me things to think about in terms of like
Speaker 4: what do I want my kids to look like when
Speaker 4: they're at that age, and like I don't want them
Speaker 4: to be like traumatized being away from me, right, Like
Speaker 4: that's actually what we're working towards is that they're going
Speaker 4: to go you know, they can decide how far they
Speaker 4: want to go, but they're going to go away. They're
Speaker 4: going to be independent. They're not going to need me
Speaker 4: to like check their email and schedule their classes. I
Speaker 4: feel like we're trying to help them become independent people.
Speaker 4: And that school trip sounds awesome.
Speaker 3: It was awesome, and they did all kind of outdoor stuff,
Speaker 3: And you're right, I shouldn't invalidate their feelings. Maybe some
Speaker 3: of them are real, but I wondered if some of
Speaker 3: them were performative because they saw these other people posting it,
Speaker 3: and then we're like, oh, if I don't also share
Speaker 3: my paranoia, I'm not like, yeah, flexing my I'm an involved,
Speaker 3: attached parent.
Speaker 5: That's where I just like back away from the group text, like,
Speaker 5: you know, back away the time. I think I kind
Speaker 5: of your other kids were probably so happy too to
Speaker 5: have like a little bit of time.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. We had some girl time because it
Speaker 3: was my son.
Speaker 4: I was on the chain.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: I always think it's kind of fun to have just
Speaker 4: like one kid when I usually have two. It's nice
Speaker 4: to have them get it's individual attention.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, it's not like he wasn't having the time
Speaker 3: of his life. So well, I have a question, which
Speaker 3: I think is like kind of illustrative. What do you
Speaker 3: do for yourself that isn't about your kids?
Speaker 4: Oh, I mean I think I read a lot, like
Speaker 4: a lot, a lot, a lot. And I also and
Speaker 4: still said it was such a funny thing to say,
Speaker 4: because like, I'm not a was never a team sports person,
Speaker 4: was never an athlete. But I also exercise a lot
Speaker 4: because I just need it for my brain, like I
Speaker 4: just need to kind of shake things out. So I do.
Speaker 4: I have a little running group that well, this is
Speaker 4: how you found me there another runner. I joined a
Speaker 4: running club through my local bookstore, which I love, So
Speaker 4: we run on Sunday mornings. But I was bundled up
Speaker 4: yesterday when it was like nineteen degrees and went and ran.
Speaker 4: And there's also like a little exercise studio in my
Speaker 4: town that's owned it's by one woman who's amazing, and
Speaker 4: they do great classes there. And that's become both like
Speaker 4: just from like a physical health standpoint, like at forty two,
Speaker 4: I think I'm probably stronger than I've ever been and
Speaker 4: not like a you know, not either a bodybuilding competition.
Speaker 4: You know, I do feel proud that I can do
Speaker 4: a lot of stuff I couldn't do previously. And it's
Speaker 4: also just like such a source of community for me.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of people that I see there, some
Speaker 4: of whom are also like moms at my kids' school,
Speaker 4: some of whom are just like people that I know
Speaker 4: around town. And it's been really great to have that
Speaker 4: space where like every Monday morning I see a lot
Speaker 4: of the same people for my pilates class. So those
Speaker 4: are my main things.
Speaker 3: I love it. Well, can you share a love of
Speaker 3: the week for us?
Speaker 4: Oh Man? So my current love of the week. We
Speaker 4: have some good friends who have a toddler, which is
Speaker 4: so funny just to see like what a two and
Speaker 4: a half year old is like at this point. She's adorable.
Speaker 4: And we went over to their house last night for
Speaker 4: a lunar New Year celebration, which was so much fun,
Speaker 4: and then I had leftover noodles for lunch today. So
Speaker 4: my love of the week, I guess, would be like
Speaker 4: sharing meals with friends, especially when they're delicious and made
Speaker 4: by someone else.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm just going to say my love of the
Speaker 3: weekest daycare, which we haven't had for a while, but
Speaker 3: which we had when my first was a baby for
Speaker 3: about a year and a half or so. And I
Speaker 3: just want to validate anybody else who is loving daycare
Speaker 3: or having another childcare provider like a nanny, and wants
Speaker 3: permission to find that a spark of joy in their life.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Well, where can readers, fine, where can
Speaker 3: listeners find you?
Speaker 4: So I am as I said on Instagram, which is
Speaker 4: nancyt O dot Ready. I also write a newsletter called
Speaker 4: write More, Be Less Careful, and that's on substack. It's
Speaker 4: Nancyready dot substack dot com. And that's really focused on
Speaker 4: making space for creative work in a busy life. Looking
Speaker 4: as especially not totally, but looking especially at parents who
Speaker 4: are trying to keep up a writing practice even as
Speaker 4: they're doing all the caregiving that we do.
Speaker 1: Amazing.
Speaker 3: I'm excited to check it out. Thank you so much
Speaker 3: for coming on.
Speaker 4: Thanks much for having me.
Speaker 3: Well we are back and I just love that interview.
Speaker 3: I hope you did as well. So our question comes
Speaker 3: from a listener who writes in asking how did you
Speaker 3: find babysitters? I don't understand I'm looking for them. I
Speaker 3: feel like people talk about it like it's some easy
Speaker 3: feat to get someone to care for your kids, but
Speaker 3: it doesn't seem so obvious to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, we've used care dot com a lot,
Speaker 2: and some of this is just are you in an
Speaker 2: area that has enough people and enough sort of people
Speaker 2: who might be in the looking for babysitting jobs demographic
Speaker 2: that you can find a reasonable number of potential So yeah,
Speaker 2: care dot com we have used. There's Facebook group called
Speaker 2: Babysitters of the main Line or something like that, which
Speaker 2: is a pretty straightforward, like you post what you need,
Speaker 2: people can post advertisements of their self. There's very very
Speaker 2: strict rules on how it operates, too, and so people
Speaker 2: get banned for doing things they're not supposed to do,
Speaker 2: so you know, it's at least somewhat got some boundaries
Speaker 2: around it, like obviously you still have to be careful
Speaker 2: it's easier if you've got somebody who's recommended from someone else,
Speaker 2: or someone who, through the nature of their job, might
Speaker 2: have been through some sort of screening as it were,
Speaker 2: like somebody who has worked as a preschool teacher, for instance,
Speaker 2: has gone through background checks, and it's just the odds
Speaker 2: are better that there's nothing sort of wrong with their
Speaker 2: dealing with young kids than say, somebody else. So I
Speaker 2: don't know, that's one way to look at it.
Speaker 3: That is one of my favorite reservoirs of babysitters is
Speaker 3: to ask around at the school because often they are
Speaker 3: flexible outside of school hours, which is probably when you'd
Speaker 3: want a babysitter anyway. So and often it's great to
Speaker 3: look maybe not for like the seasoned fifty five year
Speaker 3: old teacher that's been in the system for many, many years,
Speaker 3: but like if there's a teacher's assistant or an aid
Speaker 3: or something, and you know they've been vetted, but they're
Speaker 3: also younger, they may me more flexible, and they may.
Speaker 4: Be interested in that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: So we've gotten some of our best babysitters, I would
Speaker 3: say number one word of mouth, or like the neighbor's
Speaker 3: babysitter if they're willing to share. Of course, don't don't
Speaker 3: steal babysitters, but sometimes it can be great. Actually, one
Speaker 3: that we used for years and years and years was
Speaker 3: the babysitter for our across the street neighbors, and then
Speaker 3: they moved to California and we're like, feel free to
Speaker 3: contact this person and it worked out super well. And
Speaker 3: another one that we've used a whole lot was one
Speaker 3: of my kids teachers, And I would say the key
Speaker 3: is also keeping them. So if you find someone that
Speaker 3: you like, the way you're going to grow a portfolio
Speaker 3: over time and not have to deal with tons of
Speaker 3: turnover is to be an awesome person to babysit for.
Speaker 3: So that means paying market rates are above market rates
Speaker 3: depending on where you live. Honestly, as a line item,
Speaker 3: I've never found that one off babysitting broke the bank.
Speaker 3: I guess maybe we don't go out like that much,
Speaker 3: but if it's like a once a month event, maybe
Speaker 3: paying like five or ten dollars an hour more really
Speaker 3: doesn't add up to that much, but it might not
Speaker 3: have to a really happy babysitter who's excited to say yes.
Speaker 3: I also say asking well in advance is really helpful.
Speaker 3: And making sure that if you're ordering dinner for the kids,
Speaker 3: that you offer to get some for them, things like that.
Speaker 3: Like I think when you make it a pleasure for
Speaker 3: them to come and want to come, then you're able
Speaker 3: to have your portfolio gradually grow over time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean making sure that you give people enough
Speaker 2: hours to keep them interested to so tack on something
Speaker 2: like even if you were just going to like round
Speaker 2: up on the hours, you know, they're not coming for
Speaker 2: two hours, which people do not want to do, like
Speaker 2: it's a you know, three or four hour minimum, or
Speaker 2: you know, making sure that you don't only reach out
Speaker 2: like once a month. I mean, I would say that
Speaker 2: if you want to keep them interested in you, you
Speaker 2: should be asking for more than that so that they
Speaker 2: sort of still build it into their model of their lives, like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is something I could do.
Speaker 1: There's going to be turnover.
Speaker 2: But the good news is, eventually, if you have multiple kids,
Speaker 2: at least one of them gets old enough that they
Speaker 2: can babysit, and so that's a wonderful thing. We'll talk
Speaker 2: about parenting milestones in a future episode, but yeah, that's a.
Speaker 1: That could be on the horizon eventually.
Speaker 3: So we hope this helps.
Speaker 1: We hope this helps.
Speaker 2: All right, well, this has been best of both worlds.
Speaker 2: Sarah has been interviewing Nancy Ready about the Good Mother myth.
Speaker 2: We will be back next week with more on making
Speaker 2: work and life fit together.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
Speaker 3: and you.
Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life
Speaker 2: work together.