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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 2: and speaker.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,

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Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love

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Speaker 3: our careers and our families.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about

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Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.

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Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.

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Speaker 1: Term career goals.

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Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.

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Speaker 2: This episode is airing in mid February of twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: Sarah is going to be interviewing Nancy Ready about the

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Speaker 2: good mother myth how we get ideas of what it

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Speaker 2: means to be a good parent or, let's be clear,

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Speaker 2: good mother, since that seems to be a bit more

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Speaker 2: of a pointed idea of what is required. So, Sarah,

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Speaker 2: you know, interviewing Nancy and reading her book, did you

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Speaker 2: ever think about where a lot of the myths of

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Speaker 2: what exactly a good parent is come from?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I don't feel like I gave it nearly enough thought.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's one of those things where you're

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Speaker 3: so bathed in it that you don't even stop to

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Speaker 3: think that it like probably has external origins, or that

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Speaker 3: some of this is much more subjective and not just

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Speaker 3: sort of a baked into the human experience. And we'll

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Speaker 3: talk about it in the book. But I actually found

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Speaker 3: it really eye opening that there were actual sources for

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Speaker 3: some of these ideas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's gonna be fascinating to hear about. I mean, like,

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Speaker 2: what are some of the myths that or at least

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Speaker 2: the thoughts that you were bathed in that you find

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Speaker 2: yourself repeating.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. And I would be curious to know

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Speaker 3: if these also resonate with you. But I feel like

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Speaker 3: and some of these came from the book, and some

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Speaker 3: of them were just for me. But like a good

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Speaker 3: mine is sad when she is away from her baby

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Speaker 3: or child for any length of time. A good mother

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Speaker 3: is always dedicated to making sure her kids have what

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Speaker 3: they need and it's specifically her fault if they don't.

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Speaker 3: And how about a good mother always puts her family's

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Speaker 3: needs ahead of her own.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is interesting because her own needs Sometimes that

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Speaker 2: means job too. Write like as if a job is

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Speaker 2: like a fun, cute little thing that a mom has.

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Speaker 2: Here's an interesting thought experiment for our listeners. What if

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Speaker 2: I use the phrase a good mother earns enough money

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Speaker 2: to support her family?

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Speaker 1: Well, what if I threw that one out there?

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Speaker 3: Super interesting and then you can always try it with

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Speaker 3: the experiment A good father always earns enough money to

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Speaker 3: support his family. Well, a good father is sad when

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Speaker 3: he is away from his baby or child for any

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Speaker 3: length of time.

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Speaker 2: So what it is, though, is that we have an

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Speaker 2: idea that you know, in many cases, we do believe

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Speaker 2: that a good father supports his family. We do not

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Speaker 2: believe that a good mother should be supporting her family.

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Speaker 1: But why not? I mean, it's this, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: the same like you could hold.

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Speaker 2: The same standard to people, or that somebody might be

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Speaker 2: sad when they're away from their baby. It could be

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Speaker 2: a mother or father, And yet we don't tend to think, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, a father is sad when he's away for

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Speaker 2: any amount of time. So I don't know, I just

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Speaker 2: find that fascinating where we get these different notions and

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Speaker 2: whether they serve us in any.

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Speaker 1: Way or you know all that I think.

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Speaker 3: You tend to be more immune to them than me.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps I don't know, well, I mean, partly it's because

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Speaker 2: the way I've worked, like through the whole of having children,

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Speaker 2: Like there's like zero things I can't do if I

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Speaker 2: wanted to, right, Like I mean having complete control over

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Speaker 2: your schedule. I guess I just don't feel like I

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Speaker 2: need to do everything. I do plenty of things and

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Speaker 2: have scratched that itch. So if I want to be

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Speaker 2: a room parent, I can, and I have. If I

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Speaker 2: want to go volunteer for the kid's Valentine's Day party,

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Speaker 2: I can, and I have do. I then also want

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Speaker 2: to do four other parties in the course of the year.

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Speaker 1: Maybe not.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I feel like I've already done that and don't

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Speaker 2: need to be at everything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I mean partly it's also having five kids, so you

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Speaker 2: know you can't be at everything. I mean, this is

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Speaker 2: a line I've had a number of people say to

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Speaker 2: me recently, sort of like the idea of that with

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Speaker 2: the idea of being a good parent, like I need

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Speaker 2: to go to every practice in every game. It's like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: nobody goes to every practice in every game, especially if

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Speaker 2: you have like three kids, because there's something is going

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Speaker 2: to be at the same time, right, So then it's

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Speaker 2: just a question of what are you missing? And if

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Speaker 2: everybody's missing something, then you know, it's just a degree

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Speaker 2: of how many things you plan to miss and how

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Speaker 2: many other things one could do with.

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Speaker 1: The cost of time, I mean the opportunity cost of time.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know, it just seems like less of

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Speaker 2: a harsh trade off.

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Speaker 1: Than I think a lot of people think it is.

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Speaker 3: Yes, no, that is one of those true you definitely

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Speaker 3: hear and I feel like, were you looking for a

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Speaker 3: point a cookie A yeah, I don't know, an A.

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Speaker 2: Plus there's other things too, like I mean, to me,

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Speaker 2: a good mother values her children becoming their own independent selves, right,

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Speaker 2: So that means that you can't do everything for them,

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Speaker 2: and in many cases it is their own responsibility to

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Speaker 2: learn how to say, go advocate for themselves with their

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Speaker 2: school counselor if you need something, and you could coach

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Speaker 2: the kid to do that, but the good mother doesn't

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Speaker 2: actually do it herself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's one way to think of it, and

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Speaker 3: yet culturally, I think there's a lot of pressure to

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Speaker 3: feel the other way. So super super interesting. I am

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Speaker 3: so excited for this interview and I do highly recommend

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Speaker 3: her book. It was eye opening to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well let's see what Nancy Ready has

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Speaker 1: to say.

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Speaker 3: Well, I am so excited to welcome Nancy Ready to

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Speaker 3: this podcast. Her material was so eye opening to me,

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Speaker 3: and I just feel like she is going to her

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Speaker 3: stuff is going to resonate very well with many of

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Speaker 3: you listeners. So I'm just especially excited for this episode.

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Speaker 3: Nancy wrote the Good Mother myth, and I'll share links

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Speaker 3: to all that, but Nancy, go ahead and introduce yourself.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here. This is kind of

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Speaker 4: kind of my dream to be on a podcast that

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Speaker 4: talks about both like parenting and work, and those things

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Speaker 4: are both really important. So I'm a writer and a

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Speaker 4: writing teacher. I have two kids who are nine and eleven.

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Speaker 4: I feel like we're in like the opposite of peak.

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Speaker 4: We're in like the valley of the winter cold grossness.

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Speaker 4: So they're both at school right now, but they've been

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Speaker 4: alternating all kinds of horrible illnesses for the last couple

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Speaker 4: of weeks. So yeah, that's me so excited.

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Speaker 3: Oh and interesting they're nine to eleven because I have

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Speaker 3: questions related to some older kids later, so that is perfect.

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Speaker 3: Mine are seven eleven and thirteen for.

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Speaker 4: Rect Oh wow, yeah, interesting.

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Speaker 3: So what brought you the inspiration? I think I know

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Speaker 3: with some of it because of all the personal stories

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Speaker 3: shared in the book, But like what ultimately inspired you

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Speaker 3: to write The Good Mother Myth?

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Speaker 4: I mean, it really was just this personal personal journey

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Speaker 4: a lot of ways. I had my two kids when

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Speaker 4: I was in graduate school, and I had, as I

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Speaker 4: share in the book, like all of these ideas that

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Speaker 4: were so deeply ingrained. I don't think I really could

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Speaker 4: have even articulated them, but I had these really just

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Speaker 4: intense ideas about what it would mean to be a

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Speaker 4: good mom and that it was both possible to do

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Speaker 4: it right and like if I did it a certain

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Speaker 4: natural way, that would all be like easy and blissful

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Speaker 4: and joyful and spoiler alert, that is not quite how

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Speaker 4: things went. And we had a wild couple of years.

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Speaker 4: I had two kids pretty close together. We moved when

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Speaker 4: they are really little for my job, and I kind

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Speaker 4: of came up a couple of years later, like kind

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Speaker 4: of came up for air when they were three and

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Speaker 4: five and felt like what just happened to me? Like

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Speaker 4: what was that? And this book is really the product

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Speaker 4: of a many year investigation of that question, and.

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Speaker 3: You asked the right questions because in what you even

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Speaker 3: just said, like not only was I struggling, but I

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Speaker 3: was like struggling a second time because it was supposed

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Speaker 3: to be good, So obviously I'm wrong. It's like that

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Speaker 3: second sting you were having. I don't think many of

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Speaker 3: us and having you know, been in those shoes, especially

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Speaker 3: when my kids were younger. I think we shared some

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Speaker 3: similar struggles like the pump and things like that. I

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Speaker 3: never really thought to ask the question that you did

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Speaker 3: so eloquently and explored so well, like why why do

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Speaker 3: we feel like failures? Where did we get the image

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Speaker 3: of what right actually looks like? Is it valid? Who

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Speaker 3: came up with it?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: I guess there's a little bit more of it now,

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Speaker 3: But what got you to like go all the way

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Speaker 3: back to the beginning? Did you kind of just keep

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Speaker 3: following threads?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there was a while where this project

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Speaker 4: was like really it was like a wild, wild project.

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Speaker 4: I got really into primates for a long time. I

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Speaker 4: was doing a lot of research. I'm kind of like

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Speaker 4: the trying to understand like the hormonal and like neurobiological

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Speaker 4: like mechanisms behind postpart and mood and anxiety disorders. In

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Speaker 4: the final version of the project is much more focused

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Speaker 4: than that, which is good, and I ended up really

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Speaker 4: focusing on the science and scientists that emerged in the

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Speaker 4: kind of post war period. And certainly there's a long

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Speaker 4: history of ideals around motherhood, like that goes back as

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Speaker 4: long as there have been people and families, probably, but

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Speaker 4: I really focus on that time period because I think

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Speaker 4: it's this moment when a lot of our ideas about

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Speaker 4: how important mothers are and how they're like the whole

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Speaker 4: world for their baby and they're supposed to do all

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Speaker 4: this work on their own and not get paid for

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Speaker 4: it because it's a labor of love. Like it's a

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Speaker 4: moment when a lot of those ideas really crystallized, and

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Speaker 4: when there was all of this research that I think

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Speaker 4: made it seem like it's not just a good idea,

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Speaker 4: but it's also like science says that your baby needs

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Speaker 4: to be there every minute and if you go to

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Speaker 4: work or have other interests, that it's going to damage

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Speaker 4: your kid. And I think those ideas are still really

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Speaker 4: with us, and it turns out that the science beneath

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Speaker 4: them is pretty bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So one of the mic drop moments in your

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Speaker 3: book was when you said, and I think this was

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Speaker 3: referring to like Ainsworth or you'll tell me which expert,

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Speaker 3: the only thing your child needs to thrive is your

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Speaker 3: emotional availability and responsiveness. And you wrote the only thing.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's this, but I think it's really true,

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Speaker 4: and I think you can still see this, I mean

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Speaker 4: definitely on social media, this idea that like, oh Mama,

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Speaker 4: it's so like natural and like the only thing your

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Speaker 4: baby needs is your love, like you can do that.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know, I just think it's a message

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Speaker 4: and I think makes moms oftentimes feel really bad in

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Speaker 4: a sneaky way, in part because like if the mom

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Speaker 4: is giving this like endless love and care.

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Speaker 1: Like who's caring for her?

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Speaker 4: You know, And we don't do a good job of that,

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Speaker 4: I think, especially with really new moms.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like we're not allowed to want to break, or

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Speaker 3: if we do, then that's definitely either something wrong with us,

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Speaker 3: like because yeah, there's always like two layers of this, right,

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Speaker 3: it's what you're doing, and then it's also how you

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Speaker 3: feel about what you're doing, and then it's also how

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Speaker 3: you feel about failing. Like I don't know, it's multi multi,

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Speaker 3: multi layers, and.

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Speaker 4: So often now I think there's also this level of

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Speaker 4: performance about how you feel about how you're doing, Like

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Speaker 4: you're both supposed to I think, like love every minute

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Speaker 4: with your baby, or you're supposed to do all of

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Speaker 4: the care. You're supposed to love getting to do all

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Speaker 4: of that care, and you're supposed to have this like

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Speaker 4: kind of social media presence of like, look at how

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Speaker 4: much I love getting to be the twenty four to

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Speaker 4: seven caretaker for this tiny, needy person.

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Speaker 3: You know, yes, And we'll get into social media in

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Speaker 3: a minute. I think both of us are lucky enough

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Speaker 3: that our kids were babies a little bit before there

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Speaker 3: was like an avalanche of that, although my youngest I

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Speaker 3: think we were starting to get there. Funnily enough, I

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Speaker 3: quit all social media a couple of years after that.

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Speaker 3: So smart, But what are some of your favorite myths? Like,

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Speaker 3: let's just like take a couple of your top three

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Speaker 3: if you had to come up with them.

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Speaker 4: Oh sure, I mean the biggest thing, I think, the

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Speaker 4: one that's like at the center of the whole tower

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Speaker 4: of mythology, is just the idea that like a good

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Speaker 4: mom can do it all on her own. And I

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Speaker 4: think we have this like super mom mythology and our culture,

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Speaker 4: and I think underneath that is the idea that like

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Speaker 4: as soon as you have a baby, you'll be transformed,

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Speaker 4: like pregnancy and birth will like turn you into this

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Speaker 4: superhuman person who can just do all of the care,

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Speaker 4: do all of the nursing, do all of the feeding,

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Speaker 4: all of the laundry, like so much laundry with a

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Speaker 4: little baby, and I won't mind, right, because you're just

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Speaker 4: powered by love. And I think for me, like the

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Speaker 4: love is very real, like that's you know, like the

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Speaker 4: love that I feel for my kids has changed my

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Speaker 4: life and I'm so grateful for that. But the expectation

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Speaker 4: that like motherhood and parenting is also a lot of labor, right,

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Speaker 4: and that you never mind that labor because of the love,

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Speaker 4: Like that's a pretty unfair expectation, and I think that

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Speaker 4: makes a lot of moms feel bad. If you're like, hey, man,

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Speaker 4: like I love this baby and I don't want to

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Speaker 4: see him every forty five minutes in the middle of

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Speaker 4: the night, Like you know, that is not it's okay

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Speaker 4: to not be having a good time. I think in

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Speaker 4: some parts of.

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Speaker 3: It, or on the flip side, I think another myth

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Speaker 3: is that you're not supposed to like enjoy your work

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Speaker 3: or time away from the baby. Can you address that?

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Speaker 4: Oh, my goodness, absolutely. And I would say I feel

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Speaker 4: very lucky that I was raised by a working mom

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Speaker 4: who worked really hard in her career and who was

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Speaker 4: also really present for me and my sister. She was

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Speaker 4: a single mom for a lot of my childhood, and

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Speaker 4: I know that that was hard in terms of balancing,

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Speaker 4: like she worked a very conventional office job, but she

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Speaker 4: created this model I think for me and my sister

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Speaker 4: where it just was normal to both work and have kids.

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Speaker 4: And I'm really grateful for that. And I just I

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Speaker 4: mean in part because I had such a tough time

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Speaker 4: with my first baby, Like it was very clear to

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Speaker 4: me that like I think some moms feel like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I'm the special one. I'm the only one who knows

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Speaker 4: how to do whatever, And I was like, I do

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Speaker 4: not know what I am doing here, Like this baby

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Speaker 4: does not seem to you know, I'm not a magic

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Speaker 4: person for him. At least they didn't feel that way

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Speaker 4: at first, and so in a way, it made it

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Speaker 4: much easier to send him to daycare. He started going

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Speaker 4: to it. We had like a babysitter when he was

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Speaker 4: when he was little, and he started going to daycare

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Speaker 4: when he was six months old, this like little very

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Speaker 4: unfancy in home place. That was so sweet and I

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Speaker 4: mean that was such a joy, Like to get to

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Speaker 4: send him to daycare, to know that he would be

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Speaker 4: really well cared for, he'd be around other kids, and

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Speaker 4: my husband and I both got to work like that

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Speaker 4: was such a I mean really for me, like unmixed blessing,

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Speaker 4: Like there was no part of me that felt ambivalent

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Speaker 4: or bad about that.

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Speaker 3: And probably the only part that would feel bad is

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Speaker 3: that you felt bad that you didn't feel bad. Perhaps

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Speaker 3: well you didn't you're.

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Speaker 4: Making kids, didn't, I know, I mean it was just

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Speaker 4: like kind of I don't just like always it is

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Speaker 4: very hard for me to have an unmixed feeling, but

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Speaker 4: I feel like daycare and we were lucky that we had,

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Speaker 4: you know, we were able at theos stage to find

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Speaker 4: daycare that we felt good about. It was always like

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Speaker 4: very unfancy, like they were eating you know, like hot

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Speaker 4: dogs and spaghetti, you know, in this lady's house. And

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Speaker 4: to be totally honest, like by the time we moved

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Speaker 4: to New Jersey, and had two kids, like it was

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Speaker 4: that was expensive, Like it would definitely push us financially.

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Speaker 4: Maybe that's the only thing that I have a reservation

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Speaker 4: about around daycare. Right. We were lucky to find daycare

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Speaker 4: where we felt like our kids it was of a

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Speaker 4: quality where our kids felt safe. But I think it

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Speaker 4: was very obvious to me from my own experiences as

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Speaker 4: a kid and then from my experiences as a mother

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Speaker 4: that like, it is actually great for kids to be

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Speaker 4: cared for by lots of people, right, that it's not

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Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be just the mom or the

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Speaker 4: mom and the dad or co parent and doing it

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Speaker 4: all totally.

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Speaker 3: And I love daycare too. I just always felt like

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Speaker 3: there was this cultural zeitgeist that like admitting that out

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Speaker 3: loud was bad. And I actually had a mentor who

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Speaker 3: was lovely. I'm a physic, Like I do this podcasting thing,

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Speaker 3: but I'm also a physician, so you know, I was

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Speaker 3: in my fellowship training and this mentor who was like

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Speaker 3: a good researcher and now she's like a division chief.

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Speaker 3: She said very cheerfully to me one day, She's like,

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Speaker 3: I love daycare. I love and she had three kids.

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Speaker 3: She's like, I love coming to work. And I remember

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Speaker 3: hearing that as like, oh my gosh, Like I respect her,

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Speaker 3: she loves daycare. I'm allowed to love daycare. Like I

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Speaker 3: can enjoy that I get to use my brain and

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Speaker 3: be free during the day and like have non baby

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Speaker 3: related thoughts and that's not a bad thing. And the

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Speaker 3: fact that like I needed that like reassurance in order

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Speaker 3: to like give myself.

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Speaker 4: Permission, yeah, is wild.

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Speaker 3: And it all comes down to, like the stuff that

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Speaker 3: you talk about, like what are these cultural currents that, yeah,

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00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,480
Speaker 3: unfortunately kind of conspire to make people feel a certain

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Speaker 3: way a lot of the time.

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Speaker 4: But I also feel like this is a lot of

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Speaker 4: what we can do for each other, right, is to

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Speaker 4: like share that message like actually daycare is great, Like

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Speaker 4: actually you can love your work and know that your

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Speaker 4: kids are going to be great. I mean, I remember

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Speaker 4: when I got into this writing. It was like a

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Speaker 4: writing conference. It was ten or twelve days long. It

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00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 4: was really long, and my kids were really little, like

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Speaker 4: three and one. My husband had encouraged me to apply,

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Speaker 4: and then I got in and I got a fellowship

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Speaker 4: so it was paid for, and I think he was

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Speaker 4: a little like, oh, no, what have I done? They'd

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Speaker 4: always got a daycare, and I'd always traveled for conferences,

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Speaker 4: but that was a really long time to be away

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Speaker 4: from them when they were so small, and I felt

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Speaker 4: like really nervous about it. And I remember talking to

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Speaker 4: a friend of mine who said, it is really good

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Speaker 4: for your kids to see you doing something that matters

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Speaker 4: to you, Like that's valuable, And that was such a gift,

380
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Speaker 4: like to know like, Okay, like I'm doing this for me,

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Speaker 4: Like this is definitely a valuable thing for me. But

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Speaker 4: also I can still be a good mom, right, Like,

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Speaker 4: even as I'm away from them at this like fancy conference,

384
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Speaker 4: enjoying my time. That doesn't like invalidate who I am

385
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Speaker 4: as a mom. It doesn't make me a bad.

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Speaker 3: Mom one hundred percent. It doesn't negatively kind of impact

387
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,399
Speaker 3: their life. In fact, maybe it's more bonding time with dad.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they're getting right.

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Speaker 4: They developed all of these like little rituals that they

390
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 4: I have really sweet pictures of them. They got the

391
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Speaker 4: habita fang like a little popsicle in in the kitchen

392
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 4: together every night. Yeah, and I think it's good. It's

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Speaker 4: good for dads too, right to have that time.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna take a very quick break We're going to

395
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Speaker 3: talk about a couple more myths and then maybe what

396
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Speaker 3: advice you would give yourself, your new mom's self. All right,

397
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,360
Speaker 3: we're back. Can you think of any well I want

398
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,239
Speaker 3: to talk about kind of like how these myths are

399
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,879
Speaker 3: presented to us in today's context. But I guess do

400
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 3: you have any one more myth perhaps that you can

401
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 3: come up with? So we had like leaving the baby

402
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 3: is bad. It's not okay to like childcare or childcare

403
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 3: is going to hurt your kid in some way.

404
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,159
Speaker 4: I mean, I think the other big one is just

405
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,959
Speaker 4: this like the idea of the automatic selflessness that like

406
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:36,199
Speaker 4: you'll be transformed and you'll just be capable of, I

407
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 4: don't know, becoming this person who kind of doesn't have needs.

408
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 4: I think we often expect moms to just always put

409
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Speaker 4: themselves last and not mind and to think that that's

410
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 4: a measure of being a good mom, that you're caring

411
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Speaker 4: for everyone else first. I mean I talk about this

412
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Speaker 4: very practically with some friends of mine who are like,

413
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Speaker 4: oh man, everyone else in my family is up to

414
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,719
Speaker 4: date on all of their well visits and their eye

415
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,199
Speaker 4: doctor's appointments and their flu shots and all of that,

416
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 4: and like I haven't been to the doctor in six years,

417
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 4: and like and sometimes it gets like just practically you know,

418
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 4: it's sometimes people get behind on stuff. But sometimes I

419
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 4: feel like there's a way in which it can feel

420
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,200
Speaker 4: really good to care for other people, which is great,

421
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 4: but we also need to care for ourselves and also

422
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 4: expect other people in our family to help care for

423
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Speaker 4: us too, which I think is hard to do for

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Speaker 4: a lot of women.

425
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say my like thought around or like

426
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,160
Speaker 3: pet peeve around that is that not around what you said,

427
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 3: but like when mothers are like I have to care

428
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 3: for myself so I can be a better mom. Like

429
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 3: it doesn't always have to be circular, I know, and

430
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 3: come back to the kid.

431
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like you are still a person, right, And I

432
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 4: think that we I don't, but we're not good about

433
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 4: sharing that message, right, Like there's the kind of like

434
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 4: put your own oxygen mask on first so that you

435
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 4: can care for your kid. And I'm like, I don't know, man,

436
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 4: I'm still a person. Like here, I am, I'm still here,

437
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 4: you know, I have needs and interests that are actually

438
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 4: not about my kids or about being a parent to them.

439
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the phrase we sometimes use is like

440
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 3: we count too, you know, which is so like, but

441
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 3: it's useful to say that sometimes we do need to

442
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,360
Speaker 3: remind ourselves. I think, yes, all right, we'll bringing ourselves

443
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 3: into the present and how new moms are currently being

444
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 3: bathed in various images. You painted some good pictures of

445
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, all the times you mentioned, like the babies,

446
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 3: and like the natural wraps and how comfortable they were.

447
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 3: I mean, I love the Ergo baby. That thing was great,

448
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 3: But I never managed those like stretchy things where we

449
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: had to wrap it around ten times.

450
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 4: It's so long, like watching videos of people doing it. Yeah,

451
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 4: I went to classes on baby wearing. I tried so

452
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 4: hard with the what do they call it, the Moby

453
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 4: Rap Baby.

454
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,400
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the movie that was we have similar age kids,

455
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 3: So that was the lot one. I'm sure there's a

456
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 3: a new one now, but yeah, tell us about I

457
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 3: don't know, like how you feel like the images of

458
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 3: the right kind of parenting are affecting women.

459
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, in a way, I feel lucky that

460
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 4: like the images that I absorbed, I'm mostly absorbed in

461
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 4: real life, which I think is kind of increasingly not

462
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 4: the case anymore. You know, when my kids are born

463
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 4: twenty thirteen twenty fifteen. We lived in Madison, Wisconsin, which

464
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 4: is this like crunchy college town, and you know, I

465
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 4: felt like every I was like for years kind of

466
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 4: like eyeing up the moms around me, kind of trying

467
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 4: to be like, what do they do, what does it

468
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 4: look like? How does that work? And you know, I

469
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 4: see all these moms, as you said, like in the

470
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 4: Moby wrap and like walking, and they just they looked

471
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 4: so beautiful and peaceful. It's like this really aspirational image

472
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 4: for me, this ideal of what I really would have

473
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 4: said at the time, just like natural parenting. I think

474
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 4: I would have said that with like no scare quotes,

475
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 4: no awareness of like natural it's actually a really complicated concept.

476
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 4: And it just looked like glowy and beautiful and easy

477
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 4: and peaceful, you know, like if you breastfeed, if you

478
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 4: do it in the wrap, if you co sleep, like

479
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 4: it's all just so lovely. And I think, I don't know.

480
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,479
Speaker 4: I mean, it's easy to blame Instagram for everything, and

481
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 4: I think there is some sort of maybe some truth

482
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 4: to that. There's so much aspirational content online now, and

483
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 4: I think it's so hard when you see an image

484
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 4: of someone who seems like they've got it together because

485
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 4: you're not seeing like the texts they send to their friends,

486
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 4: right like you're not seeing the behind the scenes kind

487
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 4: of part of it. I mean, I do like one

488
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 4: thing that I do think is really changed, and I

489
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 4: be curious your perspective on this is that I do

490
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 4: feel like social media, but also other kinds of media

491
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 4: have changed conversations around maternal mental health. I feel like

492
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 4: there's a lot more openness and a lot more information

493
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 4: available than there was to me when I was first

494
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 4: a mom. And so it's not all bad, right, It's

495
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 4: not like I think all of social media is bad,

496
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 4: but I just think there's a really curated version of

497
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 4: motherhood that's kind of of sneaky and how beautiful it

498
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 4: makes things seem. What do you think?

499
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, I mean you're always seeing highlight reels

500
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 3: right like you're not seeing and even when you took

501
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: your walks. But it's even worse on Instagram. At least

502
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 3: on your walks. You might occasionally see a baby cry

503
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 3: in the mobi rap, but probably on Insta, Like you

504
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 3: would never see a baby cry on the MOBEI rap

505
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 3: because they would have cut the film by that point.

506
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 3: So I kind of think it lends itself to like

507
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 3: because it's sort of promising to show you snippets of

508
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 3: real life, but it's also completely edited. I think it

509
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 3: can be particularly sneaky for that kind of thing. I mean,

510
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 3: I don't have personal experience of watching those reels I

511
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: think too much or whatever.

512
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I can.

513
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: See how it could be particularly troubling. However, I agree

514
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 3: with you that the openness of talking about postpartum depression

515
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 3: or the need to get help, and even to some

516
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 3: degree they kind of like twenty tens trope of like

517
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 3: parentsing's really hard and this sucks. Sometimes that kind of

518
00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 3: fell out of favor and goes back in and out,

519
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 3: like sometimes that can be helpful. Sometimes there's a side

520
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 3: of that, it's like commiseration or just like celebrating the

521
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 3: universality of certain struggles that I could see how that

522
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 3: could be healthy.

523
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think it's not at you know,

524
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 4: I'm still at Instagram and like, have you know, ambivalent

525
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 4: feelings about that, but I think it can be really

526
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 4: useful when people are kind of open and vulnerable and

527
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 4: sharing things. I also just think, I don't know, I

528
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 4: worry sometimes that the way that we are inclined to

529
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 4: curate and present our lives on social media, and the

530
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 4: way that we often want to like seek out expertise

531
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 4: online prevents us from forming the relationships that we need

532
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 4: in person. You know, Like it's a lot easier to

533
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 4: like scroll and find someone who's going to like tell

534
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 4: you how to get your baby to sleep, and like

535
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 4: who knows that that's actually going to work or not,

536
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 4: But it's probably what you really need is to like

537
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 4: text a friend and be like, I am losing my mind,

538
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 4: Like when you come sit with this baby, can I

539
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 4: just complain for a minute. I think like that sometimes

540
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 4: that kind of like parasocial online relationship feels like a relationship,

541
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 4: And what most of us really need is a lot

542
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 4: more community.

543
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 3: Yes, And when you're in those low points and your

544
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 3: energy is low and you're tired, you might not make

545
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 3: the effort to seek the real community out when that

546
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: would help you more. Not to mention the fact that

547
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 3: many of those sleep influencers are like selling you something

548
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 3: exactly exactly.

549
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness. I always think like if you slap

550
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 4: like sleep on a product or on a handle or whatever,

551
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 4: like there's just desperate parents who are going to pay

552
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 4: any amount of money for that.

553
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 3: I did that. I remember sort of like searching the

554
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 3: internet like there was going to be an answer.

555
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 4: I know, I know, I think, oh man, which, yeah,

556
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 4: I wanted there to be an answer and there's not.

557
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 4: I don't know.

558
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 3: Some kids are answer or permission to do crying out

559
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 3: or like something some sort of authoritative voice.

560
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's another thing that I will say. And actually

561
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 4: I didn't read she's a friend of mine now, but

562
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 4: I didn't know at the time. Miranda Rake wrote a

563
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 4: beautiful essay I want to say and romp or about

564
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 4: cry it out, just like advocating for it. She's like,

565
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 4: sleep training change my family's life. It's great. Everyone should

566
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 4: do it if you want to write like it's not

567
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 4: the right fit for everyone. But that was really amazing

568
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 4: for me to read like a totally unapologetic endorsement of

569
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 4: sleep training, which I had done with a lot of

570
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 4: ambivalence of the time, and now I'm like, you know what,

571
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 4: like that was what we needed. And so that was

572
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 4: another thing where I was like, oh man, if there's

573
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 4: someone out there saying like you can do this and

574
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 4: it's going to be okay, and it's going to get

575
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 4: you ready to sleep, doesn't make you a bad mom.

576
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: That's worth a lot.

577
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: I think we're going to take another break, and then

578
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 3: we're going to kind of look back and see how

579
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 3: the years of perspective and research might inform how you

580
00:28:53,040 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 3: would counsel your young self. All right, we are back.

581
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: So as you were talking about sleep training, I'm thinking, like, yeah,

582
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 3: it's so funny. I don't even like totally remember which

583
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 3: my kids were sleep trained and which weren't. And like

584
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: you recognize when your kids are teens that like it

585
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: was all gonna be okay, but we cannot see that

586
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 3: in the moment, like at all.

587
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

588
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 3: So, and not only do you have that perspective, but

589
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 3: you also have the benefit of like all this research

590
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 3: of actually knowing where some of these things come from.

591
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: So if you're giving yourself a pep talk and you're

592
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 3: there with your you're sitting there with the pump and

593
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 3: nothing's coming out, just like it was just like had

594
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 3: happened all the time, what would you tell yourself?

595
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 4: Oh man, so many things. I mean, I think the

596
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 4: biggest thing, this still feels emotional. The biggest thing is

597
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 4: just like it's not your fault, like it's not your

598
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 4: fault that it feels hard. I think the other thing

599
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 4: that was so hard for me to see, especially when

600
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 4: my first one was really little, was that like there

601
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 4: were real life of really hard times. But also I

602
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 4: just said, I have no idea like how much joy

603
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 4: was ahead of me, you know, like it really because

604
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 4: that joy and the meaning is so particular. You know,

605
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 4: it's like getting to see the things that your kid

606
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 4: notices on the walk to school because they are their

607
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 4: own particular person.

608
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: Like for me, the real.

609
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 4: Joy of parenting is the really particular relationship, like getting

610
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 4: to see the person that your kid becomes and what

611
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 4: they notice and what they care about and like weird

612
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 4: jokes they tell you. And none of that has anything

613
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 4: to do with the ideas that I had about being

614
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 4: a good mom, you know, like none of that has

615
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 4: anything to do with are they eating lunches that like

616
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 4: look cute and that I could put on Instagram? Are

617
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 4: they wearing matching socks? Never the pressure so often of

618
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 4: the things that I thought I had to do to

619
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 4: be good, Like that's not really what's like magical about parenting.

620
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 3: And I'm also hearing in what you're saying and this

621
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 3: is actually super timely. We have an episode coming up

622
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 3: in a few weeks that's like positive parenting milestones, like

623
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 3: things to look forward to. But I guess part of

624
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 3: what you're getting at is like this is only one

625
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 3: small slice of what it's like to be a mother,

626
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: and stay tuned because if this part's hard, maybe you

627
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 3: like other parts better because they're actually pretty different.

628
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think. I mean, I love my kids obviously

629
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 4: when they were babies, but I think that some people

630
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 4: and I am one, like that's just not my moment

631
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 4: to shine as a parent, right, Like I really struggle

632
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 4: with sleep deprivation, Like that was really hard for me.

633
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 4: And I also just like I love talking. I love

634
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 4: getting to like sit next to each other and read books.

635
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 4: I love getting to go places together, you know, all

636
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 4: of the things that you can do with kids that

637
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 4: are a little bit older.

638
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. How do you feel like with

639
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: your kids being older?

640
00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 4: Now?

641
00:31:59,120 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 3: What are the myths?

642
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 4: Now?

643
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 3: Are they different with big kids? Like here would be

644
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 3: one like your kid needs to be in at least

645
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 3: for high level activities by fourth grade or you have

646
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: not done your job as I mean, I don't.

647
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 4: Know, but like, no, the activities are exactly where I

648
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 4: was going to go. And I think maybe it's because

649
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 4: we've been lucky that both of my kids, like academically

650
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 4: are great, they're fine, and don't worry about them in

651
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 4: terms of like school performance. But it's the activities and

652
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 4: we've really chosen as a family, and my husband and

653
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 4: I like we have an intentional choice to not overload

654
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 4: our kids with activities and also to not push them

655
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 4: too much to do things they don't want to do,

656
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 4: because we really value having like unstructured time together as

657
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 4: a family. But it does mean, you know, sometimes I

658
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,959
Speaker 4: talk to friends whose kids are doing like two different

659
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 4: sports and theater and something else, and that's that's where

660
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 4: for me, like that should really kicks in, where I

661
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 4: start to feel like, oh, should I be doing this?

662
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 4: Should I be doing this? And I'm really tempted right

663
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 4: now to like list the things my kids do because

664
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 4: I do do activities. But that's not the point.

665
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 3: The point is that there's not a right way.

666
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 4: There's not a right way, and that I think that

667
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 4: our art, I think a lot of like kind of

668
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 4: mainstream and especially like upper middle class white parent and

669
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 4: culture like really pushes families towards doing so much. I mean,

670
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 4: and I think sometimes like, man, when do you get

671
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 4: to just like hang out with your kids. When do

672
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 4: you get to, like, I also hang out with your friends.

673
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 4: You know, we were over at friends for dinner last

674
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 4: night and some of those things. It could be so

675
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 4: hard to schedule time with other families because it's like, oh,

676
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 4: we've got a soccer game, and then we've got a star,

677
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 4: and then we've got a basketball game, and then we've

678
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 4: got a theater performance, and then we've got whatever, and

679
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 4: like that's the right fit for some families. I'm sure.

680
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 4: I'm sure there are families that love that and it's

681
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 4: really meaningful. But for us, that's not what I want

682
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 4: to be doing. My kids are also just not team

683
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 4: sports kids, so that's not the phase that we're in totally.

684
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 3: So that would be like an older kids.

685
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 4: You think, I don't know, maybe I'm just like especially

686
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 4: hung up on on activities. I feel like that's the

687
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 4: big one. But what do you think about what.

688
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 3: Your trying to think? I mean, And my kids, by

689
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: the way, for disclaimer, are like I have a club

690
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 3: soccer player to tynts and like whatever, right, but it's

691
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 3: like a season and joy exactly it's not right, right

692
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 3: or wrong. It's like this is where we are right now,

693
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 3: and you know what, next year, I actually think we

694
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 3: might not be there and like that's great too, like

695
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 3: that it's not a but hmmm. I think a lot

696
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 3: of stuff around school prepare like are you doing like

697
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: extra are you trying to push your kid and like

698
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 3: get to their greatest potential at a young age, Like

699
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 3: maybe they don't need to be at their greatest potential

700
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 3: in fifth grade. Maybe they can just enjoy school doing

701
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 3: their work and not through the extra tutoring.

702
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 4: Oh.

703
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 3: One big one that I keep hearing is like I

704
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 3: need to have my kid do I was at a

705
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 3: birthday party yesterday and this guy was like, we need

706
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 3: to have our kids coding because and I'm like, honestly,

707
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 3: probably the robots will code better than the humans by

708
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 3: the time our kids would be coders. So I'm not

709
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 3: even sure that would be like time.

710
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 4: Was Yeah, No, I think I mayn't think anything to

711
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 4: a tech right, Like we can't possibly foresee the kind

712
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 4: of world that our kids are going into. I also like,

713
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 4: my husband is a programmer, and I'm like, you can

714
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 4: learn how to do that, right, That's not something it's

715
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 4: not like a foreign language that you like are better

716
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 4: off learning and when you're super young, like you can

717
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 4: learn that at sixteen or twenty or twenty five.

718
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 2: You know.

719
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 3: Ooh, and I have another and oh and I was

720
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 3: gonna say about the coding thing, like if they love it.

721
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,919
Speaker 3: By the way, nobody is not me saying like, don't

722
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 3: do it if they love it. Amazing. Another big one

723
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: is you're supposed to be really upset and worried if

724
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 3: your kid leaves you for any amount of time. Okay,

725
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 3: my son went on a field trip that was like

726
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 3: forty eight hours. He's my middle child, so and he's

727
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 3: been to sleep away camp. Yeah, so for me, a

728
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 3: forty eight hour field trip with his classroom was just

729
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 3: a joyous, lovely experience. I was thrilled that he was

730
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 3: getting to do outdoor activities with his teachers and multiple shepherdes.

731
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 3: And I had literally zero worries. None. Yeah, but the

732
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 3: chat and then I sort of felt like, oh my god,

733
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 3: am I a bad parent because I'm not like, not

734
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 3: only am I not having worries, but I'm not like

735
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 3: expressing the worries. And then at the end of the trip,

736
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,959
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, other parents for my school are gonna

737
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 3: hear it. But anyway, there was a barrage of like

738
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 3: reunited pictures. I'm like, guys, it was two nights, like hours,

739
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 3: I mean, questioning whether again am I doing something wrong

740
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 3: by like not being upset about it? And I think

741
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 3: this is a trope. It's just a trope like anything else,

742
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 3: Like I'm supposed to like yearn for my kid even

743
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: if they're gone for two days doing something totally awesome

744
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 3: and I'm just at work. Yeah, anyway, I mean, I

745
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 3: think so much of that is the should, right.

746
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 4: I feel like anytime that word kind of comes into

747
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 4: my brain, I try to pause and think, is this

748
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 4: something that I really feel or is this something I

749
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 4: think I'm supposed to feel, Because I'm sure their parents

750
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 4: there who really like desperately miss their kids for forty

751
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 4: four hours, although I don't necessary at eleven that seems all.

752
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 4: I mean, we also have sent our kids. Our kids

753
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 4: have gone asleep boy camp for years and they like it.

754
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 4: At my husband, I love it so But I would

755
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 4: say I also have the experience, like a lot of

756
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 4: the teaching that I do with first year college students,

757
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 4: many of them were wonderful, like I love getting to

758
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 4: work with kids at that age, but it does oftentimes

759
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 4: give me things to think about in terms of like

760
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 4: what do I want my kids to look like when

761
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 4: they're at that age, and like I don't want them

762
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 4: to be like traumatized being away from me, right, Like

763
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 4: that's actually what we're working towards is that they're going

764
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 4: to go you know, they can decide how far they

765
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 4: want to go, but they're going to go away. They're

766
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 4: going to be independent. They're not going to need me

767
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 4: to like check their email and schedule their classes. I

768
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 4: feel like we're trying to help them become independent people.

769
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 4: And that school trip sounds awesome.

770
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 3: It was awesome, and they did all kind of outdoor stuff,

771
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 3: And you're right, I shouldn't invalidate their feelings. Maybe some

772
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 3: of them are real, but I wondered if some of

773
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 3: them were performative because they saw these other people posting it,

774
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 3: and then we're like, oh, if I don't also share

775
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 3: my paranoia, I'm not like, yeah, flexing my I'm an involved,

776
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 3: attached parent.

777
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 5: That's where I just like back away from the group text, like,

778
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 5: you know, back away the time. I think I kind

779
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 5: of your other kids were probably so happy too to

780
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 5: have like a little bit of time.

781
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. We had some girl time because it

782
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 3: was my son.

783
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 4: I was on the chain.

784
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.

785
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 4: I always think it's kind of fun to have just

786
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 4: like one kid when I usually have two. It's nice

787
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 4: to have them get it's individual attention.

788
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, it's not like he wasn't having the time

789
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 3: of his life. So well, I have a question, which

790
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 3: I think is like kind of illustrative. What do you

791
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: do for yourself that isn't about your kids?

792
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 4: Oh, I mean I think I read a lot, like

793
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 4: a lot, a lot, a lot. And I also and

794
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 4: still said it was such a funny thing to say,

795
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 4: because like, I'm not a was never a team sports person,

796
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 4: was never an athlete. But I also exercise a lot

797
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 4: because I just need it for my brain, like I

798
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 4: just need to kind of shake things out. So I do.

799
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 4: I have a little running group that well, this is

800
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 4: how you found me there another runner. I joined a

801
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 4: running club through my local bookstore, which I love, So

802
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 4: we run on Sunday mornings. But I was bundled up

803
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 4: yesterday when it was like nineteen degrees and went and ran.

804
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 4: And there's also like a little exercise studio in my

805
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 4: town that's owned it's by one woman who's amazing, and

806
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 4: they do great classes there. And that's become both like

807
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 4: just from like a physical health standpoint, like at forty two,

808
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 4: I think I'm probably stronger than I've ever been and

809
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,280
Speaker 4: not like a you know, not either a bodybuilding competition.

810
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 4: You know, I do feel proud that I can do

811
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 4: a lot of stuff I couldn't do previously. And it's

812
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 4: also just like such a source of community for me.

813
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 4: There's a lot of people that I see there, some

814
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 4: of whom are also like moms at my kids' school,

815
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 4: some of whom are just like people that I know

816
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 4: around town. And it's been really great to have that

817
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 4: space where like every Monday morning I see a lot

818
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 4: of the same people for my pilates class. So those

819
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 4: are my main things.

820
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 3: I love it. Well, can you share a love of

821
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 3: the week for us?

822
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 4: Oh Man? So my current love of the week. We

823
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 4: have some good friends who have a toddler, which is

824
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 4: so funny just to see like what a two and

825
00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 4: a half year old is like at this point. She's adorable.

826
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 4: And we went over to their house last night for

827
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 4: a lunar New Year celebration, which was so much fun,

828
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 4: and then I had leftover noodles for lunch today. So

829
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 4: my love of the week, I guess, would be like

830
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 4: sharing meals with friends, especially when they're delicious and made

831
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 4: by someone else.

832
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: I love it.

833
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 3: Well, I'm just going to say my love of the

834
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 3: weekest daycare, which we haven't had for a while, but

835
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 3: which we had when my first was a baby for

836
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 3: about a year and a half or so. And I

837
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 3: just want to validate anybody else who is loving daycare

838
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 3: or having another childcare provider like a nanny, and wants

839
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: permission to find that a spark of joy in their life.

840
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Well, where can readers, fine, where can

841
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 3: listeners find you?

842
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 4: So I am as I said on Instagram, which is

843
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 4: nancyt O dot Ready. I also write a newsletter called

844
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 4: write More, Be Less Careful, and that's on substack. It's

845
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 4: Nancyready dot substack dot com. And that's really focused on

846
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 4: making space for creative work in a busy life. Looking

847
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 4: as especially not totally, but looking especially at parents who

848
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 4: are trying to keep up a writing practice even as

849
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 4: they're doing all the caregiving that we do.

850
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: Amazing.

851
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 3: I'm excited to check it out. Thank you so much

852
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 3: for coming on.

853
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 4: Thanks much for having me.

854
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 3: Well we are back and I just love that interview.

855
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 3: I hope you did as well. So our question comes

856
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 3: from a listener who writes in asking how did you

857
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 3: find babysitters? I don't understand I'm looking for them. I

858
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 3: feel like people talk about it like it's some easy

859
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 3: feat to get someone to care for your kids, but

860
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 3: it doesn't seem so obvious to me.

861
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, we've used care dot com a lot,

862
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: and some of this is just are you in an

863
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 2: area that has enough people and enough sort of people

864
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:53,720
Speaker 2: who might be in the looking for babysitting jobs demographic

865
00:41:54,320 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 2: that you can find a reasonable number of potential So yeah,

866
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: care dot com we have used. There's Facebook group called

867
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: Babysitters of the main Line or something like that, which

868
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: is a pretty straightforward, like you post what you need,

869
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: people can post advertisements of their self. There's very very

870
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 2: strict rules on how it operates, too, and so people

871
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 2: get banned for doing things they're not supposed to do,

872
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: so you know, it's at least somewhat got some boundaries

873
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: around it, like obviously you still have to be careful

874
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 2: it's easier if you've got somebody who's recommended from someone else,

875
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: or someone who, through the nature of their job, might

876
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 2: have been through some sort of screening as it were,

877
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: like somebody who has worked as a preschool teacher, for instance,

878
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 2: has gone through background checks, and it's just the odds

879
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: are better that there's nothing sort of wrong with their

880
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 2: dealing with young kids than say, somebody else. So I

881
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 2: don't know, that's one way to look at it.

882
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: That is one of my favorite reservoirs of babysitters is

883
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 3: to ask around at the school because often they are

884
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: flexible outside of school hours, which is probably when you'd

885
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 3: want a babysitter anyway. So and often it's great to

886
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 3: look maybe not for like the seasoned fifty five year

887
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 3: old teacher that's been in the system for many, many years,

888
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 3: but like if there's a teacher's assistant or an aid

889
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 3: or something, and you know they've been vetted, but they're

890
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 3: also younger, they may me more flexible, and they may.

891
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 4: Be interested in that sort of thing.

892
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 3: So we've gotten some of our best babysitters, I would

893
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 3: say number one word of mouth, or like the neighbor's

894
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 3: babysitter if they're willing to share. Of course, don't don't

895
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 3: steal babysitters, but sometimes it can be great. Actually, one

896
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 3: that we used for years and years and years was

897
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 3: the babysitter for our across the street neighbors, and then

898
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 3: they moved to California and we're like, feel free to

899
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 3: contact this person and it worked out super well. And

900
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: another one that we've used a whole lot was one

901
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 3: of my kids teachers, And I would say the key

902
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 3: is also keeping them. So if you find someone that

903
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 3: you like, the way you're going to grow a portfolio

904
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 3: over time and not have to deal with tons of

905
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 3: turnover is to be an awesome person to babysit for.

906
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 3: So that means paying market rates are above market rates

907
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 3: depending on where you live. Honestly, as a line item,

908
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 3: I've never found that one off babysitting broke the bank.

909
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 3: I guess maybe we don't go out like that much,

910
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 3: but if it's like a once a month event, maybe

911
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 3: paying like five or ten dollars an hour more really

912
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 3: doesn't add up to that much, but it might not

913
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 3: have to a really happy babysitter who's excited to say yes.

914
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 3: I also say asking well in advance is really helpful.

915
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 3: And making sure that if you're ordering dinner for the kids,

916
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 3: that you offer to get some for them, things like that.

917
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 3: Like I think when you make it a pleasure for

918
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,479
Speaker 3: them to come and want to come, then you're able

919
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: to have your portfolio gradually grow over time.

920
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean making sure that you give people enough

921
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: hours to keep them interested to so tack on something

922
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 2: like even if you were just going to like round

923
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 2: up on the hours, you know, they're not coming for

924
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: two hours, which people do not want to do, like

925
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: it's a you know, three or four hour minimum, or

926
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: you know, making sure that you don't only reach out

927
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 2: like once a month. I mean, I would say that

928
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 2: if you want to keep them interested in you, you

929
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: should be asking for more than that so that they

930
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 2: sort of still build it into their model of their lives, like, oh,

931
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: this is something I could do.

932
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: There's going to be turnover.

933
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 2: But the good news is, eventually, if you have multiple kids,

934
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: at least one of them gets old enough that they

935
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 2: can babysit, and so that's a wonderful thing. We'll talk

936
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: about parenting milestones in a future episode, but yeah, that's a.

937
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: That could be on the horizon eventually.

938
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 3: So we hope this helps.

939
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: We hope this helps.

940
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 2: All right, well, this has been best of both worlds.

941
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 2: Sarah has been interviewing Nancy Ready about the Good Mother myth.

942
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: We will be back next week with more on making

943
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: work and life fit together.

944
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

945
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,

946
00:45:59,160 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 3: and you.

947
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This

948
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join

949
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life

950
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: work together.