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Speaker 1: One of my children saw his dad dressed all in black,

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Speaker 1: and he said that it seemed like his dad was

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Speaker 1: mad at him because he yelled at him to go

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Speaker 1: back to bed. And the night before that, he had

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Speaker 1: actually told my oldest child to rap a sledgehammer that

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Speaker 1: we had that had a really bright yellow handle in

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Speaker 1: black electric tape and find a black raincoat for him

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Speaker 1: to wear.

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Speaker 2: And she was like, okay, Dad, I'm Anderrea gunning. And

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Speaker 2: this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust

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Speaker 2: the most and the deceptions that change everything. One night

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Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen, Danielle Oliver Chauvet was awoken by the

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Speaker 2: FBI in state police. They were pointing guns at her,

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Speaker 2: demanding to know where her husband was. That night, she

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Speaker 2: learned the man she had spent twenty years with was

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Speaker 2: hiding some very big secrets. This is don Yelle's first

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Speaker 2: time telling her story. She's been reluctant to share what

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Speaker 2: she went through because, as you'll hear in part two,

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Speaker 2: her husband has other victims. She wants to be respectful

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Speaker 2: of their experience and suffering. But this episode isn't about

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Speaker 2: her husband's crimes. It's about the twenty year marriage Danielle

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Speaker 2: built with him, the ways he deceived and violated her,

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Speaker 2: and the shocking betrayal that ended it all. It's also

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Speaker 2: the story of being totally in the dark about your

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Speaker 2: partner's double life.

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Speaker 1: I used to watch Lifetime shows and I used to

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Speaker 1: be that person saying, oh, she had to know something.

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Speaker 1: So I totally understand why people say things like that.

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Speaker 1: But until you were actually walking in those shoes and

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Speaker 1: living with a person who can be completely double faced,

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Speaker 1: living a completely separate life, all I know is the

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Speaker 1: life that he had with me and our kids. That's

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Speaker 1: all I saw. He was able to do everything else

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Speaker 1: completely separate.

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Speaker 2: Danielle grew up in a happy, tight knit family in California.

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Speaker 1: Family is very important to me. We were just over

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Speaker 1: in my parents, all of my siblings, and we all

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Speaker 1: just get along really well. There's hardly ever any arguments

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Speaker 1: within our family, and when there is, it's results within

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Speaker 1: the day.

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Speaker 2: Growing up, Donielle's parents were her role models. They had

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Speaker 2: a respectful and happy marriage. It was an environment that

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Speaker 2: nurtured her easy going and trusting nature.

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Speaker 1: I had a really good childhood and so I didn't

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Speaker 1: grow up with a lot of strife or bad things

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Speaker 1: happening in my childhood where that trust was broken down.

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Speaker 2: She was raised with a strong sense of faith. That's

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Speaker 2: still one of her core values.

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Speaker 1: I know some religions could be like really strict, you

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Speaker 1: can do this, you can't do this. I wouldn't even

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Speaker 1: say that mine is a religion. It's a relationship with christ.

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Speaker 2: Donielle is one of those rare people who loved high school.

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Speaker 2: She was popular and she had a long time high

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Speaker 2: school boyfriend named Billy.

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Speaker 1: When we were teenagers. Everybody thought for sure that we

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Speaker 1: were just going to be together forever, you know, we

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Speaker 1: were the thing.

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Speaker 2: Right before their senior year of high school, Billy proposed

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Speaker 2: to her and she said yes.

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Speaker 1: But then I actually had to move to Hawaii because

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Speaker 1: my dad was working for a military and we moved there.

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Speaker 2: She ended up spending her senior year in Hawaii. Then

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Speaker 2: she got accepted to college in Illinois. She was ready

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Speaker 2: to start a new life there without her high school boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: Giving up her first love was hard, but she wanted

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Speaker 2: to prioritize her independence. Danielle thrived in college. She loved

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Speaker 2: her major, which was art, and she also loved going

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Speaker 2: to Bible study on campus. That's where she met Chad.

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Speaker 1: He was raising his hand and answering the questions like

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Speaker 1: right away, and he was answering the way I would

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Speaker 1: have answered those questions, right in line with the way

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Speaker 1: I believed.

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Speaker 2: So I was attracted to that immediately. She knew Chad

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Speaker 2: was special.

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Speaker 1: The first time I met him. I said to my

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Speaker 1: parents when I got back that I was going to

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Speaker 1: marry him. So it was pretty much love at first sight.

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Speaker 2: She felt comfortable around Chad. It was easy, like they'd

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Speaker 2: known each other for years.

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Speaker 1: We actually met at my parents' house and watched a

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Speaker 1: couple movies and I made a maasagna and he changed

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Speaker 1: my oil in my car. That was her first date.

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Speaker 2: From the start, Donielle was serious about Chad.

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Speaker 1: When I'm dating someone that I'm deciding whether or not

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Speaker 1: this person is the person I want to marry. So

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Speaker 1: I was looking for specific things that I wanted in

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Speaker 1: a husband when I was dating him.

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Speaker 2: And Chad checked all the boxes.

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Speaker 1: There was lots of things. He grew up in a

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Speaker 1: Christian home, He had a good relationship with his parents.

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Speaker 1: He was business minded like he was able to support me.

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Speaker 2: Everything about him felt right. He was pursuing a degree

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Speaker 2: in finance. He had dreams of starting his own business,

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Speaker 2: and like her, he also wanted a big family. But

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Speaker 2: most of all, she just loved being around him.

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Speaker 1: I had fun with him, you know, we would laugh

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Speaker 1: about lots of things. I was just attracted to the

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Speaker 1: way I felt around him.

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Speaker 2: While they were dating, he went above and beyond to

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Speaker 2: woo her.

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Speaker 1: Something about Chad, you have to know he likes to

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Speaker 1: do everything big. It always has to be the best

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Speaker 1: and the grandest and the most showy.

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Speaker 2: It's not who she is, but Chad said she deserved

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Speaker 2: the best, and it was flattering. After about two years

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Speaker 2: of dating, he made a particularly grand gesture. He bought

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Speaker 2: her an expensive dress, rented a limousine, and took them

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Speaker 2: to a dinner theater.

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Speaker 1: And during that intermission he excused himself. I thought he

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Speaker 1: was going to use the restroom, but he actually turns

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Speaker 1: out had set up beforehand with the theater that he

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Speaker 1: would go on stage and asked me to marry him

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Speaker 1: from the stage. And then he got down on his knee.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it was quite the show.

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Speaker 2: She said. Yes, he brought her out of her comfort

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Speaker 2: zone and it felt like a fairy tale.

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Speaker 1: I was one hundred percent this is the one I

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Speaker 1: hiding to spend the rest of my life with.

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Speaker 2: Chad was involved in every step of the wedding planning,

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Speaker 2: which Donielle loved, and he also wanted to go to

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Speaker 2: pre marriage counseling to discuss their expectations.

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Speaker 1: We discussed who would be the breadwinner in the home,

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Speaker 1: you know, what would be the different roles of both

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Speaker 1: husband and wife, as far as who did what in

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Speaker 1: the household. It was thoroughly discussed how our marriage would

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Speaker 1: go before we got married, I mean, as far as

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Speaker 1: you can. We did know that I wanted to be

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Speaker 1: a stay at home mom, so that was talked about.

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Speaker 2: Danielle had been managing her own money in her early twenties,

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Speaker 2: and although she was good at it, it was a

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Speaker 2: relief to be marrying someone who had expertise in finance.

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Speaker 2: It made her feel safe, and so they agreed that

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Speaker 2: while she would manage the household, Chad would manage the money.

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Speaker 1: And I had full trust in Chad to be able

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Speaker 1: to do that too, because of his business degree. He

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Speaker 1: was really good at money, and so he went to

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Speaker 1: school for it. I didn't have any you know, worries

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Speaker 1: about him taking over the finances for the family.

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Speaker 2: She was happy with this arrangement. She's a do it

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Speaker 2: yourself kind of person. It's an attitude that's well suited

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Speaker 2: to raising kids and the household.

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Speaker 1: My dishwasher broke down several years ago, and I wasn't

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Speaker 1: about to pay somebody because I'm going to figure out

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Speaker 1: how to fix it. I laid all the flooring in

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Speaker 1: the house that I'm in right now. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how to do that, but I looked it up, just

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Speaker 1: went on YouTube and figured it out. So I'm that

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Speaker 1: type of person.

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Speaker 2: After they got married, the couple decided to move to

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Speaker 2: Chad's hometown in Illinois. To call it a small town

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Speaker 2: is an understatement. The entire population could fit in one

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Speaker 2: high school football stadium.

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Speaker 1: Well, the town we live in, Erie is only nineteen hundred.

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Speaker 2: It's small, small, but perfectly suited to the life that

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Speaker 2: they were building, a life that centered around family and community. Plus,

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Speaker 2: Chad had grown up there, so he knew nearly everyone

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Speaker 2: in town, and everyone seemed to adore him. In fact,

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Speaker 2: he'd been the high school valedictorian. Once they moved back

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Speaker 2: to Erie, the couple also joined Chad's church, the church

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Speaker 2: he grew up in.

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Speaker 1: We were really involved with that church, and his parents

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Speaker 1: went to that church too, and we led a Sunday

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Speaker 1: school together.

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Speaker 2: As a couple, their life was falling into place. A

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Speaker 2: happy marriage, a strong foundation based on shared values, a

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Speaker 2: community that supported them, and a church they felt welcomed by.

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Speaker 2: And Chad was making progress in his career. He began

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Speaker 2: the certification process to become a financial advisor. He wanted

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Speaker 2: to start his own firm.

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Speaker 1: He did it all online. I went through classes online

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Speaker 1: and got his certificate online and all that.

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Speaker 2: She was proud of him, and for the time being,

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Speaker 2: she kept working too.

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Speaker 1: I also worked for the post office for a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but that was not part of our marriage plan. I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be a working mom. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a stay at home mom. Pretty much as soon

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Speaker 1: as we got married, we started trying.

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Speaker 2: But conceiving their first baby didn't happen as quickly as

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Speaker 2: Danielle hoped. The months turned into a year, and during

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Speaker 2: that year, Chad made a shocking confession.

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Speaker 1: He came home from work and sat me down and said,

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Speaker 1: I need to tell you something really important and just said,

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Speaker 1: I had an accounter with a guy in the bathroom

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Speaker 1: and I think we need to go see somebody and

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Speaker 1: talk to like a counselor about it. And so I

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Speaker 1: was just like, what is going on? It just blindsided me,

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Speaker 1: Like what just happened.

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Speaker 2: She asked him point blank if he was gay. He

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Speaker 2: said no, he wasn't. She wanted more details about what

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Speaker 2: actually happened, who it was with, and what they did.

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Speaker 1: But he never really gave a straight answer. It was

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Speaker 1: just we need to go talk to somebody, like a

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Speaker 1: counselor about it.

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Speaker 2: Donielle was shaken and confused about her husband's confession to

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Speaker 2: a one time playing but at the same time, Chad

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Speaker 2: was doing everything he could to make it right. He

198
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Speaker 2: confessed to it immediately, he wanted to get help, and

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Speaker 2: most importantly, he was coming to her with sincere remorse.

200
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Speaker 1: He was crying, I was crying. He was saying sorry.

201
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Speaker 2: Chad wanted to get help quickly, and so the next

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Speaker 2: day they did.

203
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Speaker 1: We actually went to the pastor and asked for advice

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Speaker 1: about who we should see as a marriage counselor for us.

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Speaker 1: We were given a name of a Christian counselor.

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Speaker 2: They had multiple sessions with the counselor, some sessions together

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Speaker 2: as a couple, and some separately. During a one on

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Speaker 2: one meeting, the counselor gave Danielle some advice.

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Speaker 1: He advised me, you should really think carefully about this marriage.

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Speaker 1: You know, you actually have a right to end this

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Speaker 1: marriage if he is being unfaithful to you.

212
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Speaker 2: The counselor said he'd seen a situation like this before,

213
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Speaker 2: and he wanted Danielle to know that divorce was an option.

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Speaker 1: I understood that. I knew that that's something that it's

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Speaker 1: perfectly fine for me to file for a divorce, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to. I wanted to make this marriage work.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even want the word divorce to come up

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Speaker 1: in our marriage. Like when I made a commitment in

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Speaker 1: our marriage at the wedding ceremony, My promise was a promise.

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Speaker 1: I didn't take my vows lightly in sickness and in health,

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Speaker 1: or Richard for poorer. I was going to walk through

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Speaker 1: it with him. I wanted to help him resolve whatever

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Speaker 1: it was that he was going through because I loved

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Speaker 1: him and I wanted our marriage to work.

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Speaker 2: This one infidelity it felt small and manageable, especially compared

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Speaker 2: to the years they'd spend together getting to know each other,

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Speaker 2: studying the Bible together and building a life. She really

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Speaker 2: trusted Chad.

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Speaker 1: I felt like I could trust him even though he

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Speaker 1: had done whatever he had done. I believed him one percent.

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Speaker 2: They got a workbook on overcoming infidelity and even did

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Speaker 2: the homework together, and they decided to lean on their

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Speaker 2: faith to help them rebuild their relationship. Church became an

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Speaker 2: even bigger part of their lives.

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Speaker 1: He was an elder in the church. We jointly were

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Speaker 1: leaders for kids Christian camps. We were very involved in

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Speaker 1: our faith.

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Speaker 2: Their marriage began looking up, especially when a year later

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Speaker 2: they welcomed their first baby, a baby girl.

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Speaker 1: She was an amazing first child, super easy baby, smiling

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Speaker 1: all the time, happy, alert. It was a great, great

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Speaker 1: first mom experience.

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Speaker 2: Donielle was on top of the world, so filled with

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Speaker 2: love for her first daughter and her young family. It

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Speaker 2: confirmed to her that she really did want to be

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Speaker 2: a stay at home mom. She just felt whole.

247
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Speaker 1: People that we would meet walking through a mall always

248
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Speaker 1: stop and say, oh, you have the cutest baby. She's

249
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Speaker 1: the cutest thing I've ever seen, and your family is

250
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:24,320
Speaker 1: so cute.

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Speaker 2: The difficulties she and Chad faced in the first year

252
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,480
Speaker 2: of marriage started to feel like they were in the

253
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:30,400
Speaker 2: rear view mirror.

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Speaker 1: At that point, I felt totally in love with him

255
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Speaker 1: and close to him. I felt like I had the

256
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 1: perfect life.

257
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Speaker 2: That baby would be the first of six.

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Speaker 1: I knew that you could get pregnant even when you

259
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Speaker 1: were still nursing, and before you had your first cycle

260
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Speaker 1: after pregnancy. I didn't think it was going to happen

261
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Speaker 1: to me, but it did.

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Speaker 2: Soon. Donnielle's life became consumed by full time childcare. As

263
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,360
Speaker 2: their kids got older, she started homeschooling them, and she

264
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:04,760
Speaker 2: loved every minute of it.

265
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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have it any other way. And a lot

266
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Speaker 1: of people are like, wow, sixth kids, that's a lot,

267
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Speaker 1: but you know, each one of them is unique and

268
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,320
Speaker 1: has their own personality. Each of them is just amazing.

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Speaker 1: I love it. I absolutely love it.

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Speaker 2: With a growing family came more financial demands, but luckily

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00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,400
Speaker 2: Chad's business was taking off. They even had the ability

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Speaker 2: to upgrade their house.

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Speaker 1: He had been starting to look at this property that

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Speaker 1: he really wanted. It was a huge house, way bigger

275
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,560
Speaker 1: than we needed. Enormous, huge living room, huge family, a

276
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Speaker 1: huge dining room, huge huge master bedroom. You know basement

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Speaker 1: that looked like a bowling alley, and so he started

278
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Speaker 1: looking at it and dreaming about it and eventually decided

279
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Speaker 1: that he was going to try to purchase it.

280
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Speaker 2: Danielle didn't think it was the most practical choice, but

281
00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 2: the house made him happy. After they moved in, tried

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00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,720
Speaker 2: to tell her how to run the house, but she

283
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,840
Speaker 2: stood her ground. She trusted him to handle the finances,

284
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,960
Speaker 2: so when it came to the housework, he needed to

285
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Speaker 2: trust her.

286
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 1: He wanted me to do things a certain way, like

287
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,160
Speaker 1: do laundry on a certain day, do the dishes on

288
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,120
Speaker 1: a certain day, or you know, do dusting on a

289
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,080
Speaker 1: certain day. And I was like, no, I will do

290
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,160
Speaker 1: it when it needs to be done. When I see

291
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,480
Speaker 1: that it needs doing, I'll do it, you know.

292
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,640
Speaker 2: And there were a lot of things that needed dusting.

293
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,200
Speaker 2: Chad was a collector. It was a quirk that Danielle accepted.

294
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,200
Speaker 1: Precious moments, figurines, and he was very much in a

295
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 1: Hallmark fan, so he had millions of Hallmark ornaments, tons

296
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,960
Speaker 1: of DVDs. I mean we had two huge walls full

297
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 1: of DVDs.

298
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,080
Speaker 2: They loved watching movies as a family, and after the

299
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,400
Speaker 2: kids went to bed, the couple would watch their favorite TV.

300
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,040
Speaker 1: Shows, Dexter and Breaking Bad.

301
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,880
Speaker 2: Every summer, Danielle, Chad and their six kids would take

302
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,399
Speaker 2: family road trips.

303
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 1: Yellowstone, the Grand Canyon, Mount Rushmore, we had all the

304
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,880
Speaker 1: tourist places in the United States. We had a lot

305
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,320
Speaker 1: of really fun times as family.

306
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,879
Speaker 2: On these trips, they'd stay in huge rental homes. Chad

307
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,879
Speaker 2: always wanted the best of the best for the family.

308
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,520
Speaker 1: And they were very nice, very nice rented houses. Some

309
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,280
Speaker 1: of them. I was like, okay, guys, don't touch anything,

310
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:45,560
Speaker 1: you know, like expensive paintings on the walls and glass decorations.

311
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,200
Speaker 2: One summer, about fifteen years into their marriage, the family

312
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,280
Speaker 2: was on one of their regular road trips, and on

313
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,760
Speaker 2: this trip, their rental home was in a remote area.

314
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 1: I woke up around tween in the morning. I know,

315
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,480
Speaker 1: it was the middle of the night. All the kids

316
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 1: were asleep, and I got up to go to the

317
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: bathroom or something and turned over and he was not

318
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 1: in bed with me. I looked around the house to

319
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,200
Speaker 1: see if he was just up somewhere. He was not there.

320
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,399
Speaker 1: I went out into the garage area. The car was gone,

321
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,680
Speaker 1: so I started being like, but where did he go?

322
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 1: There was no note as far as he left somewhere.

323
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Speaker 1: He didn't leave a message on my phone. He was

324
00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:32,760
Speaker 1: just gone.

325
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 2: It was the early two thousands, so she didn't have

326
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 2: a smartphone to look at his location. She started to

327
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,560
Speaker 2: worry that something terrible happened.

328
00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 1: So I started calling around to the hospital around the

329
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 1: area and is there any child skipper admitted into this hospital? No, ma'am,

330
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 1: thank you, call the next hospital.

331
00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,119
Speaker 2: Around three am, the phone rang. It was Chat.

332
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,919
Speaker 1: And he said he was at w and I was like, okay,

333
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 1: why are you at Walmart? I just thought I would

334
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,520
Speaker 1: pick up some stuff. But you know, you can kind

335
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,119
Speaker 1: of tell when somebody's calling from the middle of a store.

336
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,439
Speaker 1: You can hear the hum of everything. There was no

337
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,160
Speaker 1: shopping cart sounds, no like cashier beeping and stuff. There

338
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,159
Speaker 1: was none of that. It did not sound like he

339
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:28,240
Speaker 1: was in a shopping area. I hung up the phone

340
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 1: and just was like, how what is happening? I don't understand.

341
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,080
Speaker 1: Says he's are in Walmart, that it is hours away.

342
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,879
Speaker 1: That doesn't make any sense. And I just sat in confusion,

343
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,359
Speaker 1: shaking until he got home.

344
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 2: When Chad got back, he tried to explain it away.

345
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 1: And he apologized and said, I'm sorry, I didn't tell

346
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 1: you where I was going. You know, everything's fine, You're good,

347
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 1: the kids are good, I'm back, We're safe. He blew

348
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 1: it over.

349
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 2: Whenever they got in a disagreement. This is what he'd

350
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:00,720
Speaker 2: tell her.

351
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 1: His favorite phrase was, don't make a mountain out of

352
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 1: a mole hill. You know, you just get really emotional

353
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:14,480
Speaker 1: about things. It's okay, you know, calm down. Always made

354
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 1: me feel like I was crazy.

355
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 2: Abandoning the family in a rental house in the middle

356
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 2: of the night with no good explanation. It just didn't

357
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,440
Speaker 2: sit right with her, so Donielle called her mom.

358
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,200
Speaker 1: She was like, oh, wow, yeah, that is really weird.

359
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,439
Speaker 1: I'm glad you're okay. You know, I'm glad it all

360
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 1: worked out, but that is really weird.

361
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 2: Donielle was the full time caretaker for six children under fifteen.

362
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,920
Speaker 2: She didn't have the energy to fight with her husband.

363
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: I didn't confront him. That's one of my personality quirks

364
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 1: is I don't like confrontation. I would rather just not

365
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 1: talk about it than have a huge argument about something,

366
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,879
Speaker 1: which is not healthy. I think it's much healthier to

367
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 1: communicate and work it out. But at that point I

368
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,360
Speaker 1: just didn't want to deal with it.

369
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 2: Plus, whenever she did question him, it always ended up

370
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 2: coming back on her.

371
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 1: On the rare occasions when I would ask questions, I

372
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 1: would be shut down and told I was crazy or

373
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 1: that is totally not how it went. You have blown

374
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 1: this out of proportion and you don't remember the actual

375
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,640
Speaker 1: fact that actually happened. This is how it actually happened.

376
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 2: When Donielle woke up on a family vacation to find

377
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 2: her husband missing, he said he was picking up something

378
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 2: for work at a Walmart in the middle of the night.

379
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,400
Speaker 2: She didn't quite buy the story, but she knew Chad

380
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 2: was busier than ever growing his financial advising firm. Around

381
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 2: the same time, he decided to start making passive income

382
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 2: by buying rental properties in town. It started with one

383
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 2: small house, then two, then an apartment building in their hometown.

384
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 2: He was so busy that he often worked from home

385
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: at nights. He renovated their basement to become his home office.

386
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 2: He even put in a king sized bed.

387
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 1: I didn't understand why you would need a bed in

388
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,399
Speaker 1: your office, but he insisted on having it, and his

389
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: reasons were that if he needed a nap, he could

390
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: just hop in the bed and take a quick nap

391
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 1: and then get back to work.

392
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 2: It bothered her him staying up late like this and

393
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 2: sleeping in his office. It also bothered her that he

394
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 2: locked the door. He said it was a security measure

395
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 2: because he had important financial documents in there.

396
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, well,

397
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,439
Speaker 1: how do you work at night? If you are a

398
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: financial advisor, you can't meet with clients at night. So

399
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: it was just it was very confusing to me, and

400
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 1: I do remember one time just crying my eyes out

401
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: to him, saying, I really want you to sleep with me.

402
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: You know, at night, I just feel closer to you

403
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: when we're sleeping together. I feel like we're more like roommates.

404
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: He started coming to bed with her until she fell asleep,

405
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 2: then he would slip out and go back to work.

406
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 2: She would only realize it when she woke up and

407
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: found him gone.

408
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: One night, I actually got up out of bed and

409
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: was knocking on his basement door, and I heard no answer,

410
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: And so I actually got in the car and was

411
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: driving around and thinking maybe I would see his car somewhere.

412
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: I never did, but I got to that point where

413
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: I was like starting to look to see if I

414
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:44,439
Speaker 1: could find anything.

415
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 2: She never found any proof that her husband was cheating

416
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 2: or having an affair. She didn't have the energy to

417
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: start a fight with him. He insisted on sleeping in

418
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: the basement. Eventually she became resigned to the fact she

419
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: couldn't change his mind.

420
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,360
Speaker 1: At that point in our marriage, I felt very distant

421
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 1: from him, like I felt like there was a wall up,

422
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: and we never would discuss anything. If I ever wanted

423
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 1: to talk about anything, it was always I'm too tired,

424
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: or can we talk about this tomorrow, or let's talk

425
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: about this this weekend. But nothing ever got talked about.

426
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 2: In this period where Chad was sleeping in the basement

427
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: office and they were bickering, Danielle knew that their marriage

428
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 2: needed to improve, so she saw it help for herself.

429
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: I actually went and saw a counselor a couple times

430
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: on my own because I felt like me having these

431
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: issues with our marriage was kind of my fault. I

432
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: felt like there was something wrong with me not feeling

433
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: close to him. But I wanted our marriage to be

434
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: a really good marriage, and I didn't feel that it

435
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 1: was a good marriage.

436
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 2: She even suggested they try counseling again. As a couple,

437
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: But this time Chad resisted.

438
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: He refused to go to more than one or two

439
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: sessions with me. He felt like it was useless or

440
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: he didn't want to tell somebody else our problems.

441
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: With each passing month, Chad spent more and more time

442
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: out of the house renovating the rental properties, and some

443
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: nights tenants would call with emergencies.

444
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: There would be nights where he would say, Oh, I

445
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: gotta go there's a sewage leak. I have to go

446
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: really quick and fix the sewage leak.

447
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 2: Despite their rocky few years, she still trusted him. She

448
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: had to.

449
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: You can't have a marriage without trust. It doesn't work.

450
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: You know, if one of the partners say I'm going

451
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: to go do this outside the home, you have to

452
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: trust that they're actually doing what they're saying they're doing.

453
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: Like if I say I'm going to go shopping, he

454
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 1: has to trust that I'm actually shopping. If he says

455
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to, you know, fix the sewage

456
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: system in his apartments, I have to trust that he's

457
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: actually doing that. Otherwise there's no relationships.

458
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: Plus, the rental properties added financial security to their lives.

459
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: She believed that at the end of the day. He

460
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 2: was working so hard in order to provide for the family.

461
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 2: She often overheard him practicing conversations he needed to have

462
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 2: for work.

463
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: He had this weird quirk where if he was going

464
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: to have a conversation with somebody, he would write down

465
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: the conversation that he was going to have and then

466
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: memorize it. And then I would often see him like

467
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: pacing and doing weird things with his hands and with

468
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: his mouth. I think he was like rehearsing in his

469
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: mind how the conversation would go and what he would

470
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: say in response to their responses.

471
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 2: There was one big meeting in particular Chad was preparing for.

472
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 2: It was with an older couple that went to their church,

473
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: a couple that taught Sunday school. They had known Chad

474
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: for nearly his whole life, and they were wealthy. Chad

475
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: set up a meeting with them to pitch his financial

476
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 2: advising services.

477
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: He was trying really hard to get them to be

478
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: one of his clients.

479
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 2: In the end, they decided not to use him. He

480
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: was dejected. He'd been counting on their business. After that

481
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: meeting didn't go as planned, he started talking about selling

482
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: his financial advising business and instead getting into the storage industry.

483
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: There's a little plot of land that would be perfect

484
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: for storage units. So he had said that, you know,

485
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: we're going to buy this land over here and I'm

486
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: going to start building storage units, and so we need

487
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: to set up this LLC.

488
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 2: He wanted Danielle to sign paperwork to help set up

489
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 2: the business.

490
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: If we have he as a president, then it's better

491
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: for taxes because you're a woman.

492
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 2: He asked her to go to the bank with him

493
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: that day to get it set up, and there out

494
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: in public, she noticed that her husband looked disheveled.

495
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: He was not bathed. I was surprised that he went

496
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: to the bank in the state that he was in.

497
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: I just thought, well, he must be so tired. He's

498
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 1: trying to sell his financial business and he's trying to

499
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: get these storage units ready, and he's he's not getting

500
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 1: much sleep, so he just must be really stressed out.

501
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: Later that day, one of Donielle's kids came to her.

502
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: He said that last night he'd seen something strange in

503
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: the driveway of their house.

504
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: One of my children said that he got up and

505
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: saw his dad dressed all in black, and he said

506
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: that it seemed like Chad was mad at him because

507
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: he yelled at him to go back to bed.

508
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: This was alarming because another one of her kids had

509
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 2: confessed something bizarre.

510
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: The night before that he had actually told my oldest

511
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 3: child to wrap a sledgehammer that we had that had

512
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: a really bright yellow handle in black electric tape and

513
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: find a black raincoat for him.

514
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: And she was like, okay, Dad.

515
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: Immediately, she tried to get in touch with Chad, but

516
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 2: he wasn't answering his phone. After they went to the bank,

517
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 2: he'd left the house to work on a rental property.

518
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: There were several rental places that he owned that he

519
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: was either renovating or was currently renting. I texted him

520
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: asking if he could call me as soon as possible.

521
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: I was starting to feel like, Okay, what's going on.

522
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: I hope he's okay. I hope he's not in an accident.

523
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: He called shortly after and explained that he had accidentally

524
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: fallen asleep at the rental and that he was still

525
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: feeling a little disoriented, but reassured me that he was fine.

526
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: If it sounds like Danielle is reading off of a

527
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: piece of paper, it's because she is. She's reading from

528
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: a written statement documenting this day.

529
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: Nothing is as it seems, absolutely nothing. This is my

530
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: living nightmare and what I can remember that has happened

531
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: in the last few days. At four to twenty two PM,

532
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: I texted him asking if he was okay. No response.

533
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: I texted again at five six pm and his response was,

534
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: yep you. I told him I was just wondering what happened,

535
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: and he texted, what do you mean? And then around

536
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: five point thirty he called and said he was sorry

537
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: he didn't see my text and that he must have

538
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: been in the basement and hadn't gotten it right away.

539
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: That night, Chad didn't come home for dinner. At the time,

540
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,479
Speaker 2: she assumed he'd fallen asleep at the rental property again,

541
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: but she couldn't leave her six small children to go

542
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: check on him, so around eleven PM, after putting the

543
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: kids to bed, she went to sleep herself.

544
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: Next thing I heard was banging and breaking glass and

545
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: men kneeling state police state police hands in the air.

546
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: I came out in my bedroom with no glasses on,

547
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: hands in the air, wondering if they were actually police

548
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: because I can't see very fagonally see. I've got a

549
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: foot in front of me without being blurry. In my mind,

550
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: I was thinking, well, either I'm being robbed and they're

551
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: posing as state police, or something's happening and I have

552
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: no idea why there's state police in my house with

553
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: a gun pointing at me.

554
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 2: It was becoming very clear, very quickly, this was actually

555
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 2: the state police and the FBI. There wasn't a mistake.

556
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: They were looking for Chad and they were incredibly serious.

557
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: They asked if anyone else was in the house, and

558
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: I said, yes, just me and the kids, assuming Chad

559
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: was at the rental. My whole mouth got super dry.

560
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: I could not hardly even talk. I asked them if

561
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: I could go back into the bedroom to get some

562
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: water because I kept water by my bed, and they're like, no,

563
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: you can't go anywhere. You have to stay right here.

564
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: I wasn't even allowed to wake up my kids. They

565
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,479
Speaker 1: actually went boke up all of my kids. They were

566
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: asking if there was hiding places in the house, and

567
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: it threw me for a loop because I'm like, I mean,

568
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: my kids hide in little places when they play hide

569
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: and seek.

570
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: Then the police asked her about the elderly couple that

571
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: went to their church the ones Chad wanted as clients, why.

572
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: Are you asking me questions about them? And where is

573
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: my husband?

574
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal.

575
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: He walled it off with cement blocks and soundproofing. The

576
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: only entry and exit to that room was through a

577
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: steel trap door with a walk on the outside in

578
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: a closet hidden under I think it was a dresser

579
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: or something. You would only know it was there if

580
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: you knew it was there.

581
00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal

582
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email

583
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: us at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod

584
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One

585
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: way to show support is by subscribing to our show

586
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.

587
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank

588
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production

589
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 2: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in

590
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 2: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by

591
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 2: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me

592
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 2: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard. Also produced

593
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Christin Mercury and Caitlin Golden.

594
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 2: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio

595
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: editing and mixing by Matt del Vecchio, Additional editing support

596
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: from Nico Aruka. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music

597
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 2: library provided by Mob Music and For more podcasts from iHeart,

598
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

599
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 2: your podcasts